{"conversationCode":"252-005","tapeNumber":252,"conversationNumber":5,"identifier":"37-wht-conversation-252-005","startDateTime":"1971-04-21T19:42:00.000Z","endDateTime":"1971-04-21T19:54:00.000Z","startDate":"21-Apr-1971","startTime":"2:42 PM","endDate":"21-Apr-1971","endTime":"2:54 PM","dateCertainty":"certain","timeCertainty":"estimated","participants":"Nixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.;","description":"On April 21, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 2:42 pm and 2:54 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 252-005 of the White House Tapes.","locationCode":"EOB","recordingDevice":"Old Executive Office Building","latitudeEstimated":38.897567,"longitudeEstimated":-77.039147,"chronCode":1,"chronRelease":"First Chronological Release","chronReleaseDate":"5-Oct-1999","aogpRelease":null,"aogpSegment":null,"lastModified":"2015-07-27T17:04:10.235Z","findingAid":"Conversation No. 252-5\n\nDate: April 21, 1971\nTime: Unknown between 2:42 pm and 2:54 pm\nLocation: Executive Office Building\n\nThe President talked with Henry A. Kissinger\n\n     People’s Republic of China [PRC] ping pong team’s upcoming visit\n          -John A. Scali\n          -United States Information Agency [USIA]\n          -State Department\n          -Instructions to Kissinger\n          -Scali’s role\n          -State Department\n          -Kissinger and Scali\n          -Culture exchange\n          -State Department\n          -USIA\n                -Frank J. Shakespeare\n          -William T. Gossett\n                -Marriage to daughter of Chief Justice Charles E. Hughes\n          -President’s policies\n          -Press\n          -State Department\n          -Marshall Green\n          -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman\n          -Scali\n          -PRC\n\n     United Nations\n\n     Kissinger’s forthcoming meeting with Scali\n          -Ping pong team visit\n          -State Department\n          -President’s instructions to Kissinger\n                -Need for subtlety\n          -Gossett","filename":["252-005-splice.mp3"],"tapeStart":"00:09:05","tapeEnd":"00:14:24","participantsList":["Nixon, Richard M. (President)","Kissinger, Henry A."],"prevCode":"252-004","nextCode":"252-006","tapeTranscriptFile":"252a.mp3,252b.mp3","transcript":[{"start":549.39,"end":563.38,"text":"I wonder about the, with regard to the handling of those Chinese, there's probably some areas that I don't want."},{"start":564.66,"end":565.92,"text":"Is that handled by the U.S. I.D.A."},{"start":565.94,"end":567.44,"text":"or is it handled by state?"},{"start":569.04,"end":573.58,"text":"That's why I'm taking it out, but what I would like to do a little here is"},{"start":575.15,"end":585.36,"text":"Well, you see, that's what I've been trying to do, avoid problems."},{"start":601.19,"end":608.01,"text":"Well, I had that one I didn't want to mention for this, although they're a very good type of destroyer at this point."},{"start":608.03,"end":611.28,"text":"So you've got to have a few of the skellies to now have a draw."},{"start":611.3,"end":615.3,"text":"Actually, three more."},{"start":616.54,"end":617.62,"text":"Okay."},{"start":617.98,"end":620.36,"text":"But we knew it was solid on the quick-throw-throw basis."},{"start":620.84,"end":623.02,"text":"They did that for us, at least for that one."},{"start":623.1,"end":623.48,"text":"And, uh..."},{"start":623.5,"end":624.44,"text":"I'm sorry."},{"start":624.56,"end":627.82,"text":"I'm talking to you."},{"start":627.98,"end":630.92,"text":"I don't see what you want to do."},{"start":632.65,"end":633.46,"text":"You see what I mean?"},{"start":633.48,"end":634.39,"text":"So get it out and get it done."},{"start":634.41,"end":647.44,"text":"Get it out and this is an excellent one for a skeleton to handle because it involves primarily the exchange between us and the rest and all that sort of thing."},{"start":647.58,"end":652.19,"text":"How do we know, for example, what I meant is, is this normally handled by Shakespeare?"},{"start":652.21,"end":654.55,"text":"Is that the way it was normally handled?"},{"start":654.57,"end":655.59,"text":"Or is it handled by Shakespeare?"},{"start":655.63,"end":659.43,"text":"I don't know what it is."},{"start":660.48,"end":661.84,"text":"He is sort of a liberal type."},{"start":662.5,"end":664.73,"text":"Bill Gossett is a pretty good business."},{"start":665.75,"end":674.24,"text":"He's married to his granddaughter, the daughter of Charleston Jews."},{"start":675.36,"end":676.82,"text":"And he's sort of on the liberal side."},{"start":676.92,"end":679.46,"text":"But he is a responsible, decent man."},{"start":679.48,"end":682.96,"text":"I think he's fine."},{"start":682.98,"end":684.73,"text":"As a matter of fact, you are getting down."},{"start":687.68,"end":688.82,"text":"What I meant is right."},{"start":688.96,"end":694.18,"text":"I don't, I think it's important that we not get an impression where it looks like it's dead."},{"start":695.02,"end":696.88,"text":"We're not going to hog it on the stage."},{"start":697.04,"end":701.68,"text":"We just do it because we want to handle it on the same basis as my dad."},{"start":701.88,"end":705.21,"text":"What if they don't do it?"},{"start":705.83,"end":712.63,"text":"But I think that because it is an animal, you know, it's a type, you ought to have somebody with them."},{"start":713.92,"end":715.95,"text":"I mean, we've really got to have a press man about it."},{"start":715.97,"end":718.63,"text":"We're not going to let the press man handle these people."},{"start":718.91,"end":722.89,"text":"And, you know, we need to wrap up."},{"start":722.91,"end":725.95,"text":"If it's somebody else, that's exactly what we can find in front of them."},{"start":727.05,"end":729.17,"text":"Work out the scheme."},{"start":729.25,"end":736.56,"text":"And, of course, we, uh, I know that, uh, I say this to you, you know, that's what it is."},{"start":736.62,"end":737.74,"text":"It's all the time."},{"start":737.9,"end":738.78,"text":"It's all the time."},{"start":738.8,"end":739.3,"text":"It's all the time."},{"start":739.32,"end":740.44,"text":"I can't believe it, man."},{"start":741.31,"end":745.95,"text":"But he must have got that from Martin Green."},{"start":745.97,"end":746.69,"text":"I don't know."},{"start":746.71,"end":748.67,"text":"But I'm part of the Hall of Fame, though."},{"start":748.69,"end":750.11,"text":"99% of it's the other way around."},{"start":751.33,"end":755.01,"text":"It's being done, and because they're resentful, you know, for that reason alone."},{"start":755.03,"end":762.76,"text":"So I think it's good that the Hall of Fame has got a responsibility now."},{"start":762.78,"end":765.72,"text":"My God, I can see the name of the president."},{"start":766.81,"end":771.84,"text":"Another one was, you know, it was weird because I had to go talk to him about it on three occasions."},{"start":771.86,"end":778.02,"text":"He said, we've got a record here where I was saying about China, but we've got a record here where they all was."},{"start":778.28,"end":782.88,"text":"Except this latest one about that, which is not really relevant to what we're talking about."},{"start":782.9,"end":783.86,"text":"That's the first time."},{"start":785.54,"end":793.19,"text":"They responded with a list of names and so forth and things like that."},{"start":793.95,"end":802.58,"text":"That's, we're not going to get to the little, uh, Mickey Mouse game, because I think we've won on this one."},{"start":802.66,"end":808.86,"text":"But, but, but the call has agreed to something."},{"start":808.94,"end":809.24,"text":"Right."},{"start":809.26,"end":814.68,"text":"In other words, the Rodgers and Magnum were talking about this issue."},{"start":814.72,"end":815.98,"text":"We were talking about it."},{"start":816,"end":821.66,"text":"The, uh, the UN issue, which is another one, which I have deliberately, deliberately delayed, because we might open the hell up in a minute."},{"start":823.78,"end":825.18,"text":"Okay, fine."},{"start":825.26,"end":828.6,"text":"You can get a job now, so you can see he's not going to just follow his day."},{"start":828.62,"end":834.21,"text":"And the fellow not up here, as you see, he's willing to do anything you want him to do."},{"start":834.28,"end":839.77,"text":"But I'm sure you can get him in and say, now listen, this is how the procedure is."},{"start":839.87,"end":841.73,"text":"We don't want to make a statement."},{"start":841.77,"end":842.97,"text":"But your point is exactly right."},{"start":843.07,"end":845.47,"text":"We don't, the state doesn't handle other visiting athletes."},{"start":845.63,"end":849.53,"text":"What we're doing here, we've got this company done with great subtlety."},{"start":849.63,"end":852.61,"text":"But we've got to get a hold of those people in the right place."},{"start":853.37,"end":854.75,"text":"I didn't get it."},{"start":854.84,"end":856.42,"text":"He's a very, very, very OK. John."}],"transcriptBoundary":{"start":545,"end":864,"startMethod":"llm-alignment","endMethod":"llm-alignment"},"transcriptConfidence":"high","transcriptSource":"bigtape","aiSummary":{"text":"President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discuss strategies for managing the upcoming U.S. visit of the People's Republic of China ping pong team to ensure the event is handled with appropriate subtlety and control. Nixon directs Kissinger to coordinate with John Scali to oversee the logistics and press engagement, specifically intending to keep the State Department from dominating the initiative. The President emphasizes the need for a discreet, well-managed approach to avoid domestic political pitfalls while managing delicate diplomatic outreach.","topics":["People's Republic of China","Ping-pong diplomacy","John Scali","Henry Kissinger","Public relations","Diplomatic strategy"],"generatedAt":"2026-04-06T11:49:12.676Z"},"topicSlugs":["peoples-republic-of-china","ping-pong-diplomacy","john-scali","henry-kissinger","public-relations","diplomatic-strategy"],"audioDurationSec":322,"audioFiles":[{"file":"252-005-splice.mp3","bytes":5140821,"durationSec":322.01,"bitrate":127717,"missing":false}],"audioIsShared":false,"audioProbedAt":"2026-09-18T14:10:24.303Z","originalFilename":["252a.mp3","252b.mp3"],"spliceSource":{"spliceType":"bigtape","sourceFiles":["252a.mp3"],"cutStart":543.5,"cutEnd":865.5,"adjustedStart":543.5,"adjustedEnd":865.5,"boundaryMethod":"llm-alignment","confidence":"high","splicedAt":"2026-09-18T14:10:24.303Z"},"transcriptPrev":{"segments":71,"replacedAt":"2026-09-18T14:11:36.365Z"},"audio":["https://nixon.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/audio/252-005-splice.mp3"],"url":"https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/252-005","nixonLibraryUrl":"https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/white-house-tapes/252/conversation-252-005","license":"Public domain (U.S. Government work). 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