Nixon & Ehrlichman on Busing and Antitrust

3:11:56I'm just between draft now.
3:12:02Is there anything you'd like to ask about?
3:12:06All set, sir.
3:12:11Finally, a person takes place.
3:12:14Friday morning, good.
3:12:14Why don't you do that with the Japanese, uh... Good.
3:12:17Eight o'clock or... Are you?
3:12:19Well, I'll be there.
3:12:20Well, I'll be there, so that's all I'm gonna do.
3:12:26That's when you want to do it.
3:12:30All right, hell yeah, see if you can sit through the whole thing.
3:12:41I'm all in on you.
3:12:43Yes!
3:12:44I'm between drafts at the moment.
3:12:51Do you have anything you'd like to go over?
3:13:13Yeah, but if you come in any time, I'll be here for another hour and a half before they finish the extract.
3:13:25So finish with him whenever you want.
3:13:31Anytime before 5 o'clock.
3:13:48is, uh, now, Mars should not come back yet to G. Yep.
3:13:51Uh, they do have Nell Yates stand by starting at 5 o'clock.
3:13:55She'll do the speech copy for us.
3:13:56Uh, Ray's going to come back with another draft of 5, and then by that time I'm going to start pulling some pages off and getting ready.
3:14:06I'm going to have it finished by 7.
3:14:09I'm going to have it about 7.30, in other words, so that I can start the underlying time.
3:14:15Okay.
3:14:51Thanks for that.
3:14:54Well, there's a couple of long things I wanted to visit with you, if I were dead.
3:15:05We've got John Mitchell-type problems.
3:15:10The schools are relevant, both schools, and I trust both of them.
3:15:18And there were a couple of things.
3:15:21I wish I had been here last week because there were a couple of things that bubbled up.
3:15:27John rolled market on the Austin case, and he rolled, well, I don't know if rolled is the right word, but he, this Maryland person, he attacked him the way I punched him on it.
3:15:42But it's a chronic situation with John.
3:15:46He is so busy.
3:15:48He doesn't have a chance to master these policies yet.
3:15:54And then he goes to bat for them.
3:15:59And he's got so much power that he runs right over somebody like Martin.
3:16:06So my inclination is to go over and sit down with him.
3:16:14No.
3:16:15Well,
3:16:16The airline thing came up, you know, and I agree we're faced with a problem there, but he had it for McLaren, so he was going to resign.
3:16:25Now, I told Haldeman on that, and I want John to understand, but he just hadn't threatened that.
3:16:33He decided maybe that he was going to go.
3:16:35I cannot have anybody threaten to resign John.
3:16:39If he doesn't get his way, yeah, frankly, he's got to play on this one.
3:16:42But I want to find him the hell out of there.
3:16:45If that's going to, you know, I suppose the political problem isn't anybody, but the Nader's and all the rest of us, they were soft on that.
3:16:57I don't trust the Senate.
3:16:58I've got to leave your place.
3:17:01What kind of a problem is that?
3:17:02Well, I just don't know.
3:17:03I don't know what McLaren is.
3:17:05McLaren is about...
3:17:08middle of the anti-trust bar.
3:17:10He's not a leader of the bar.
3:17:12He is a leader of the bar.
3:17:13He's a big shot.
3:17:14Well, he's a medium-sized shot.
3:17:16Let's put it that way.
3:17:17You know, the anti-trust section of the American bar is one of these little closed corporations laying under municipal bond lawyers and so on.
3:17:26And he's about medium-high in there.
3:17:30If you replaced him with somebody who had the same or greater eminence at that farm, I don't think you'd have any problem.
3:17:37What ground would we have to push?
3:17:40And while we're about to force the issue, see, my study is just about finished, and I'm going to present you with a number of antitrust issues.
3:17:48There is wet pomerane and a lot of fundamental issues.
3:17:52We've smoked out that whole antitrust division.
3:17:54What is wet pomerane?
3:17:56The Web Bombering is an act prohibiting cartels, basically.
3:18:02That's right.
3:18:03And we're going to do some of this stuff internationally that we seem to be headed for.
3:18:10We can't live with that kind of restriction.
3:18:14So there will be, oh, I don't know, maybe eight very central issues where I think McLaren is going to part companies.
3:18:26And that would be the time to begin to look for a replacement.
3:18:33But basically, I think what we have to do is work out a mode of operating of Mitchell again, that where he recognizes, I think if we take the abstract of concrete, it's him agreeing to jump.
3:18:44I do it in terms of, look, John, if you're going to jump in, this is a call to action.
3:18:49There is indispensable.
3:18:53And frankly, can we work out a deal whereby it will work?
3:18:56Yeah, I don't know.
3:18:58That would be what's gotta get done.
3:20:29What I meant is, what is necessary?
3:20:34Well, I think Mitchell has to agree that he has to recognize the problem.
3:20:43If you have certain principles, certain objectives in these areas, certain general standards that you want carried out, then those are going to be in conflict with the advice that Mitchell gets from the underlings over there.
3:20:59and that, as a general proposition, your policies are going to prevail.
3:21:05Or, if there's some reason why he doesn't think they should, then there's going to be a procedure so that they can be talked out in an orderly fashion.
3:21:15And he wants to see that.
3:21:17And he should in the abstract.
3:21:19And, okay, he will agree to that.
3:21:22Then, in implementing it,
3:21:24We can go back to that and say, now look, we agreed we were going to do this, and now let's do it in this case, in this case.
3:21:32In Austin now, although it was agreed in advance we were going to take a limited appeal, his guys have talked him into taking a very broad appeal.
3:21:44And they have raised an appeal question regarding
3:21:50the jury segregation of Mexican-American schools, which in and of itself is not bad, except, as Morgan sees it, I'm sure he's right, if we get a decision this year on that subject, in that case, then all through the campaign next year, we're going to be running into NAACP and all kinds of civil rights cases involving Mexican-Americans
3:22:18They're just going to run ATW and the Justice Department crazy, and we're going to be caught right square in the middle.
3:22:25Who is the man in justice who's pushing for that?
3:22:30I don't know.
3:22:31And Ed thinks it is North, who has taken Jerry Lawrence's place, but he's not even sure of that.
3:22:36Ed says, and I'm sure he's right about this, he said if he had a choice, he wanted to screw the president, and he had a choice of being a Justice Department lawyer or an HEW regional director, he would be a Justice Department lawyer.
3:22:50Because those guys out in the field are in an infinitely superior position to screw us up.
3:22:56And he said that is really where the problem is.
3:23:01And he hasn't been successful in persuading people that he's got guys in that civil rights division who are kind of iron runs in on him.
3:23:13So, I've got to talk to John about this and see if we can, if we can... John knows, I'm sure he does.
3:23:21I'm sure he does.
3:23:22But he is defensive as hell about his guys, about his lawyers.
3:23:26And it's that old...
3:23:29You know, syndrome.
3:23:30A guy in the department immediately becomes the advocate of the department.
3:23:36So there we are.
3:23:37Well, that's one city.
3:23:40Is the Austin thing beyond the point of no return?
3:23:43No, and the interstate road brief is filed.
3:23:47But interestingly enough, there's been almost no Texas press on it.
3:23:50It's a sleeper.
3:23:53The one that's going to hurt us is after the Fifth Circuit ruled.
3:24:00is if they find the juror segregation of Mexican-Americans down there, then it's going to go to the Supreme Court and modify the route passing the fire.
3:24:08It can be modified in an argument, and that would have to be the thing that I would get the next one.
3:24:16Now, Morgan won two-thirds of his battle.
3:24:20He eliminated two-thirds of the brief in fighting negotiations.
3:24:26But this thing he couldn't get out.
3:24:31You know, I knew it was the hullabaloo that apparently must be finally going to ask about this.
3:24:41But they've got a year before they're going to ask about this.
3:24:46Did they ask him to revert it?
3:24:47They asked him to revert it.
3:24:49He rockled all over the place.
3:24:50I'm having some letters written to Prince George County.
3:24:55They must be asking about it because they've got a hot-busting issue there.
3:25:02And we'll see if we can get it in letter form on the financial press.
3:25:12I don't think so.
3:25:13The New York Times today has a credit line, a deadline on sanctions.
3:25:18Critical event.
3:25:19Yeah.
3:25:20Oh, it was all over the place.
3:25:23It was an ambiguous answer.
3:25:29It was on both sides.
3:25:33We had to keep pressing.
3:25:36They'll take another crack.
3:25:38Now, we're catching some metal from our friends in the South about our position that no federal line could be used for bussing.
3:25:49We are interested.
3:25:50Well, they need the money.
3:25:51That's their problem.
3:25:53They're propelled by the court to the bus.
3:25:54They've got to buy buses, and they can't use up a billion and a half.
3:25:59We've got the billion and a half.
3:26:00Well, we will have.
3:26:01It's coming through.
3:26:02We'll get it.
3:26:04And there's going to be some amendments on it.
3:26:06What I'm asking to be done now is to figure out what kind of an amendment could be offered
3:26:14that we won't take a position on.
3:26:17Or by voluntary plan at the request of the community or something of this kind.
3:26:25So they waive their objections.
3:26:27Now we'll get an amendment like that and we'll get Baker or somebody to introduce it.
3:26:35And have it on there and let her go forward.
3:26:44But you keep your position loud and clear, unambiguous against President.
3:26:48Absolutely.
3:26:48Absolutely.
3:26:50You have no doubts about it?
3:26:53None.
3:26:53None at all.
3:26:53I don't think many of them.
3:26:56Shultz has no doubts about that one either?
3:26:58No.
3:26:58He realizes more.
3:26:59Matter of fact, Shultz went to war on his Austin thing with Mitchell, but he couldn't pull it off.
3:27:08uh but anyway uh well anyway that's a that's what we're i think it's the procedure i'll let you know let's see how i get along and uh but i wanted to know about it because i know you've talked to him frequently and he's never raised either item okay
3:27:32He didn't raise the airline with him either.
3:27:36That was raised with Paul.
3:27:38I can understand.
3:27:41I can understand.
3:27:43I've had a couple visits with Vice President since he's been back from his trip.
3:27:52And we try to get this Office of Intergovernmental Relations thing worked around.
3:27:56You know, one time
3:27:58He wanted all intergovernmental relations to be his thing.
3:28:02He's now off of that.
3:28:03And he's decided that there should be a director of an office of intergovernmental relations who can nominally report to him, but he should not be the figurehead on intergovernmental relations because of the hostility of Democratic governors toward him.
3:28:19He was too partisan to agree to that.
3:28:22So that's a shift.
3:28:24Sure, we've got some people who are typical, like Gilligan.
3:28:28He's really a very unlucky son of a bitch, I can imagine.
3:28:34I can probably tell you.
3:28:37That's it.
3:28:37You get an answer, you get a call.
3:28:39Well, and they end up running, you see.
3:28:40They've got other people around here.
3:28:43And that's difficult for Agnew to do.
3:28:47That's a loss of face and so on.
3:28:50So we've agreed that we'll press to get somebody
3:28:55And so I think we're on pretty good foot.
3:29:13That's a damn hard thing, John, to know how to handle.
3:29:22It's because he's got lots of energy to do with it.
3:29:26All the things he enjoys doing, frankly, makes him very happy.
3:29:31I suspect that's right.
3:29:32I don't think he much cares about who he can tell.
3:29:34I think he would enjoy sitting and making a decision that he cannot do, except that he can't with the security company.
3:29:45Yeah, I just don't know.
3:29:46Well, but he is concerned about his prerogatives.
3:29:48He's concerned about being kept informed.
3:29:49And so we need to get going and set up those procedures to do it.
3:29:58Well, no, I can't say I have.
3:30:10I just don't have an internal thing, and that's it.
3:30:27Comparing him with Connelly is having an alternative.
3:30:31Connelly is so easy to work with.
3:30:33He's got his ego.
3:30:35He's goddamn rough if you don't farm him.
3:30:38But on the other hand, if you farm him, you work it out.
3:30:46If it's worked out, it's smooth as glass.
3:30:51and he uh that's right he wants to be kept informed he wants to be kept in the play and he wants to keep his priorities but that's i don't object to that i think that's right i think he should at the same time he's a doer and he knows how to do things and follow through
3:31:45And of course, he'd be a monumental figure.
3:32:10Rather than having a vice president, shouldn't he install braces in the budget?
3:32:17He knows it's a very risky damn job, and it's hard to find a niche for it.
3:32:22My own feeling is that this sort of thing, if we did have it, if we were vice presidents, it would really be a case where, actually, if I were discussing, let's say, the channels,
3:32:36I have it in practically all the time.
3:32:39What about giving them a portfolio?
3:32:40When?
3:32:42Now?
3:32:43When he's vice president.
3:32:44When he's secretary of state?
3:32:47When he's president.
3:32:51What about Donald Trump in the Senate?
3:32:54Constitutionally, there's nothing.
3:32:58That's another possibility.
3:33:00I think that's just kind of winging it.
3:35:53Well, I had a screwball idea a while back when I was seeing the student body president of Princeton come in.
3:36:04Oh, yeah.
3:36:04He was coming in.
3:36:06Did that happen?
3:36:07He got smart.
3:36:08Yeah, of course he did.
3:36:10Not all student body presidents usually did, the jackass ones.
3:36:13Well, this one might be.
3:36:14Princeton has a pretty active student government.
3:36:16And what happened was this guy just wrote a letter to you, and I answered it.
3:36:22And he said, my God, somebody answered my letter.
3:36:24I never thought that would happen.
3:36:25So I invited him down and so on.
3:36:27And we got to talking about the vice president one day.
3:36:30And out of this came the idea that he should go in residence on campus for a week.
3:36:37Yale has a program.
3:36:39Yeah.
3:36:40Now, he wears pretty well at close range.
3:36:43Very good.
3:36:43He handles himself.
3:36:44Well, the reason he, one of the reasons he wears well, and here's where he has a little bit of a recovery.
3:36:54Extremely
3:36:55You know, he really is.
3:36:58He's a very reasonable man.
3:37:04He's a very adequate person.
3:37:05You agree or not?
3:37:06I do.
3:37:07And some of the best stuff I've seen him do, been at embassy parties, places like that, he's excellent.
3:37:14Yes, I've heard.
3:37:15His toast, his grace, his gift.
3:37:19Now, you just heard of him.
3:37:21If he went on residence at some place like that for a week,
3:37:26and rub shoulders with his hands and so on.
3:37:32It would be a new sensation.
3:37:33But also, I think the reaction would be predominantly good.
3:37:41And it might be such a radical...
3:37:43This is, of course, if we have a situation where he is going to sing it out, we have to force him.
3:37:49We have to do it.
3:37:50He'll hate it.
3:37:53He won't like it.
3:37:55Why not?
3:37:56Well, he's hypersensitive.
3:37:59None of us are.
3:38:04You've got to take it off.
3:38:06We all hate to do rallies.
3:38:08They're a pain in the ass, but you've got to do them.
3:38:13This business of going down the city and having to take questions from idiots is hard.
3:38:19Meeting with the Congress, you've got those legislations.
3:38:23You're being put to do more.
3:38:24Jury is no use after you've already met them.
3:38:27If you'd like to just read it, I could have that done.
3:38:30But you do it.
3:38:32He is, strangely enough, honest and true.
3:38:36He simply likes only the, let's face it, those events where he is treated with respect.
3:38:43And that means embassies, foreign trips, and rallies that are his.
3:38:50Correct.
3:38:51Those he does well.
3:38:53And those won't help us one damn bit.
3:41:21You know, we've got a hell of a lot of Mexican plants in this old yoke now.
3:41:28Don't you?
3:41:30Yeah.
3:41:30And I think we should put him on the road.
3:41:33He's better than the other folks.
3:41:35Oh, yeah.
3:41:36He's better than steel.
3:41:37No, he's been a county administrator up in Fresno.
3:41:40And he likes the job.
3:41:41Good record.
3:41:41Very enthusiastic.
3:41:42He's in the paper today saying the right things.
3:41:47supports your concept of oeo good spin-off he's a board yeah good stuff in fact we had a run of very interesting uh uh lawyerless statements lately from this guy fletcher from marlon the commissioner of education who was on college this weekend did a hell of a job for him
3:42:13Of course, I think we were enormously qualified by Burgess to give legitimacy to our position.
3:42:18But Marlon took it from an educator's standpoint, and he said Brussing had nothing to do with the education of his time.
3:42:26Brussing was absolutely right about that.
3:42:29And he said, what we're trying to do here is improve education in this country.
3:42:35Good, good.
3:42:36And he was on about 25 minutes, and I'm sure 15 of them was taking up the question.
3:42:41And he just kept pounding and pounding and pounding.
3:42:44They were trying to drive a wedge in between him as an educator and you.
3:42:48And he carried it off you.
3:42:50It was a pretty little black job.
3:42:54So, I'm sending a letter from you.
3:42:57Oh, by all means, you know, congratulate me.
3:42:59Make the performance.
3:43:01Make those automatic.
3:43:02Yeah.
3:43:02And to Sanchez.
3:43:02All right.
3:43:03Just one line.
3:43:04I thought you did an excellent job in your testimony before the METI-RN.
3:43:08Yeah.
3:43:08It was METI-RN.
3:43:10And their press conference.
3:43:11And their press conference, METI-RN.
3:43:12And the other fellow, you had a splendid performance on a very sensitive issue, METI-RN.
3:43:21Here's Sidney.
3:43:24But some of these changes that we've made, you know, Marlon Farrell and Sanchez and so on, we're getting people who understand more of the thing.
3:43:40Too bad John doesn't realize.
3:43:42I know where there was justices in front of the lawyers.
3:43:44And we realized who were they.
3:43:46They were the parents.
3:43:48They were people who came down here and were inspired by the laws and rules that had been planned for them.
3:43:55They wanted to go into the business and try to practice it.
3:43:58And they should be very radical.
3:43:59Most of them.
3:44:00And a lot of them are terrible.
3:44:01A lot of them.
3:44:01Are they?
3:44:02Yeah.
3:44:02Or are they children?
3:44:05They're children.
3:44:06We're asking quite a lot of them.
3:44:08Yeah.
3:44:10It's one of the big remaining problems.
3:44:14When would you have seen him?
3:44:16Well, I wanted to talk to you first.
3:44:17The other problem that I wanted to talk to him about was the baby that had been erased.
3:44:27It was the Hoover problem.
3:44:28Have you talked to him about it?
3:44:30No.
3:44:30I phoned Bob while you all were in California and said about this for the time, just because things were coming.
3:44:35I thought that was based on a conversation tonight.
3:44:38No.
3:44:39No, indeed.
3:44:40And whenever I talk to Mitchell about it, he has said, well, you know, I'm ready, but the President's got to talk to him.
3:44:49And it occurred to me that maybe Hoover was out there in La Jolla, his hideaway, and that could be a thing that could be put together out there.
3:44:58But he didn't go out there.
3:45:00He wouldn't be out there.
3:45:02So my feeling is that with every day that goes by, we've used up a little more time with him, because I know that there is a progression.
3:45:11that some lower growth up there are going to try and have at him again.
3:45:18And the longer we let this run, the more likely we are to get him under fire again and not be able to move him.
3:45:30I don't know what he's doing.
3:45:33He's well over 75.
3:45:36Mitchell is struggling for Pat Gray and apparently told Bob that he's considering this.
3:45:43He thinks so.
3:45:44He thinks so now.
3:45:46See, Gray's been in a position, he's an assistant to AG now, and we've been getting along.
3:45:53So he thinks that it can work.
3:45:57So, I, again, I can talk to Mitchell, but I know what he's going to say is that, all right, I'll rate and put you through.
3:46:05I'm going to see you Monday.
3:46:06I'll sit down with you.
3:46:08What are we going to talk about?
3:46:10Well, he'll say, you should call him over.
3:46:12Only you can get him to retire.
3:46:15And so...
3:46:18What do you think Hoover's reaction would be?
3:46:21My view would be to come in and say, look, Edgar, here's the problem.
3:46:23Here's our problem.
3:46:25Here we are.
3:46:25We've got another human rights problem, and I haven't passed an election.
3:46:31No one's survival plan.
3:46:33You'll be out.
3:46:33That's what we'll cross.
3:46:34You aren't going to die.
3:46:36You'll be admired on it.
3:46:38On the other hand, not a win, of course.
3:46:39But I think what we'd better do is we want to make your move when you're on top.
3:46:45You're on top now.
3:46:48And you can say, you know, he could be a special consultant or some damn thing and hold some standing and solve some law enforcement problems or something and be embarrassed and get him out of the line.
3:47:06See, my fellas... Yeah, my fellas that are working with the Bureau are telling me that there are real internal problems in there.
3:47:11There really are.
3:47:13And that something's got to be done pretty soon, or there's going to be a borrow.
3:47:19God, I really wish he'd do it.
3:47:25He'd do it?
3:47:26That's the funny part of it.
3:47:27He had just put a guy in over Sullivan, who was the best career guy.
3:47:34And...
3:47:35The only reason that he put his man over Sullivan is that he knows he's got internal problems.
3:47:42And Sullivan is not playing ball with him, he's playing ball with us.
3:47:50I have John, I think the author, who I stood with and fought for, and he knows that you're going to give him a dinner, and you're going to give him, you know, all of the goodies of retiring, the medal of freedom, the whole drill.
3:48:09And he's smart enough to realize that this is his last time around.
3:48:14Right.
3:48:15I'll raise it with John.
3:48:19Okay.
3:48:21I've just got a couple of other small things.
3:48:25The congressional boys are asking about a conversation that you may have had with Hebert.
3:48:36about a bill called H.R.
3:48:372.
3:48:37H.R.
3:48:372.
3:48:38About medical...
3:48:39I can't recall it.
3:48:40Well, he may have brought it, he may have raised it, but if he did, I don't know what he was talking about.
3:48:46When you were with Laird, and...
3:48:48But Laird was with him.
3:48:50Maybe Laird remembers something.
3:48:54Well, let me just, I'll read you this paragraph and see if this... See, A. Laird's planning, he's cut a deal with him.
3:49:00He said, Secretary Laird was meeting with Speaker...
3:49:04Jerry Ford, Eddie Hebert, Speaker's Office, in connection with transmittal of the Pentagon Papers.
3:49:08During this meeting, the President, by phone, spoke to Hebert, Albert, and Ford on a variety of matters.
3:49:13To the Speaker, Ford, and Secretary, Larry, listening on phone extensions, Hebert asked the President to support H.R.
3:49:182, obviously without knowing the nature of the legislation and possible flaws, but realizing the request was difficult to turn down.
3:49:26In view of a sense of cooperation then being sought on high priority requests, the President said, Mel, take care of it.
3:49:32A. Bearfield, he cut a deal.
3:49:34He has a verbal commitment from the press.
3:49:36He says OMB and HEW's opposition applies to the face of the press.
3:49:39I never even... Well, if you mention HR2, I don't...
3:49:44I just can't believe I would have said such a thing.
3:49:46But...
3:49:50What I more likely would have said, look, now look into this.
3:49:53I don't know what the hell the damn thing is.
3:49:56It's setting up a separate medical department in the Army.
3:50:01It's a silly thing.
3:50:03The ATW and OMB say on the merits of things is a bad deal.
3:50:07The president has unequivocally committed himself to aid their OK.
3:50:11But if there's any room for ambiguity, I'm not thinking about it.
3:50:16I'd like you to, you talk to him later.
3:50:18Okay.
3:50:19And say, now Mel, I can't recall, I mean, I don't recall ever discussing the substance of this.
3:50:25It may be that he mentioned a pill, and I said, look, you take care of it.
3:50:30Can you handle it?
3:50:32And just let Mel do the very best he can.
3:50:35Okay.
3:50:35But Tom and I would prefer to get out of it if we can.
3:50:39If we can't, then we'll screw around.
3:50:41Okay.
3:50:43Very good.
3:50:44Richardson has been at me and at me in the hopes that you will find it possible in your junk session message to refer to HR1 revenue sharing in a kindly way.
3:51:07I am.
3:51:07Okay.
3:51:08Bulletin.
3:51:09Both included.
3:51:11I urge the Congress again to act in this session.
3:51:17I'm against both.
3:51:18No, I'm not against recognition, but I'm against the other one.
3:51:21Well, now, we're doing something.
3:51:23You're letting us handle the appeal today.
3:51:25I am.
3:51:26And at the same time, you're going to hear about a lot of activity in support of this one.
3:51:32And it's, for one thing, Dick had to do it, right?
3:51:36And Dick Nathan is leaving OMB to go to AGW to become a deputy undersecretary for welfare.
3:51:47And so there will be a lot of activity by Nathan.
3:51:50Good man.
3:51:50He's a good man, but he and Weinberger don't get along.
3:51:53And so it's a happy result all the way around.
3:51:59We'll make an announcement from the White House, and this will be taken as emphasis on H.R.
3:52:031 and so forth.
3:52:05But at the same time, Talon is working very diligently on our secret agenda, which is to prolong, just not to report anything out with the number of H.R. 1.
3:52:28Well, the Finance Committee will not report out a bill which can be amended on the floor.
3:52:33See, but the legislative tactic of AGW is to get any damn thing out with the number HR1.
3:52:40Oh.
3:52:41So that then they can add the House version to it on the floor and then go to Congress.
3:52:49Coffee.
3:52:50No, thank you.
3:52:50I'm just about finished.
3:52:51That's all right.
3:52:53Take a Coke.
3:52:54Thank you.
3:52:59Well, you see, H.R.
3:53:02once said, John, and certainly for, it's very late in the week, for a very deep philosophical reason, and a doubtful one.
3:53:17or Maggie's got the goddamn name of work.
3:53:21And I wish there were a way to try that broad, fairly broad experimental approach.
3:53:28There may be.
3:53:29If that could be done, I would feel fine about it.
3:53:32Well, but we can't do that under the H.R.
3:53:351 ban.
3:53:37as an amendment, because Mills will knock that out.
3:53:40Do you still want me to have, though, in the speech, I urge the Congress to enact?
3:53:44I think you have to.
3:53:45I think you have to.
3:53:46Otherwise, Nick Kotz and the Washington Post and everybody will banter this as an abandonment.
3:53:52I don't.
3:53:53And it's a tough line to walk.
3:53:58I've talked to Moynihan on the phone and explained to him about the one-year slippage.
3:54:02We've had the cities and the counties and everybody in to explain to him about revenue sharing in the slippage, and we're trying to cover our... We've covered that, I think, for a crisis we've worked with in the last few years.
3:54:16I urge the Congress to act now.
3:54:19I urge the Congress to act now.
3:54:23In this session, I said, now, Richardson wants you to have a private meeting with the law on this, on H.R.
3:54:341.
3:54:34No, no, no, no, no.
3:54:37Mills wants you to have a private meeting with the law.
3:54:41I'm not so sure, but what, maybe I should at some point in time, that's not a bad idea.
3:54:46Because Long has said to Mills, and Mills has told Ricketts, that Long would rather take definitive action on welfare, whether you are president, than anyone else.
3:55:04You mean I could tell Long to have the experimental program?
3:55:07Something like that.
3:55:08All right.
3:55:13I think that he's going to have a couple of days of hearings.
3:55:18And I think after the hearings might be the time to do it.
3:55:22Before the market.
3:55:26And cut a deal with him.
3:55:32I will let Richardson suggest it first.
3:55:35He's going to write you a memo suggesting it.
3:55:38This bustling is terrible.
3:55:41difficult thing to handle.
3:55:43It is.
3:55:44We know we're on the right side, but I just can tell that the incident in San Francisco, the incident in Michigan, all of this in the case of Matt Burry, Bob Sands.
3:55:57Let me tell you, there's no better politician than Warren Burry.
3:56:00He had his finger in the air.
3:56:01You think he did?
3:56:02You bet he did.
3:56:03You bet he did.
3:56:04Did I tell it for that?
3:56:06No, no, no.
3:56:06Isn't that funny?
3:56:08Yep.
3:56:08Said the same thing we did.
3:56:09They gave me help.
3:56:10It just came out just as nice as pie.
3:56:14I'm going to call the president.
3:56:15You see what you've done, in my opinion, by saying the thing you did and the Hedrick-Hedgeroll line and all that, you put yourself between the main body of people and George Wallace.
3:56:29How is that?
3:56:29Well, I think you've taken an anti-busting stand that is more moderate, more reasonable, more attractive, and yet you're still anti-busting.
3:56:37And you said it very clearly, very understandably, everybody knows where you are.
3:56:43And I think that's a very precious position to maintain.
3:56:47Even though Wallace says, well, he still doesn't have a cure, correct?
3:56:52Yeah, but he can't pull that off, you see, because every time he tries, he bumps right into a judge.
3:56:58And the judge?
3:56:59The judge knocks him over.
3:57:00He did in one case.
3:57:02We're not going to take any executive branch action.
3:57:06We won't have to.
3:57:07He's going to be, he's going to have the courts banging away at him.
3:57:13And I don't think the Justice Department's going to have to do it.
3:57:17Do you think the Berger dictum will have any effect on these southern courts?
3:57:26The damn courts are more political on this than they are anything else.
3:57:30You mean that these are Democratic judges trying to screw us, is that what you mean?
3:57:35I know that's true in Texas.
3:57:37Yeah.
3:57:37And I think it's true other places, too.
3:57:39Check your card.
3:57:42Sure.
3:57:43Sure thing.
3:57:46I think we both... Black?
3:57:48That was just Bill's whole thing.
3:57:50I haven't checked.
3:57:52Black?
3:57:53I'm afraid they are.
3:57:53I'm afraid so.
3:57:57One of the biggest stakes in this next election, John, is our being able to outlive those ambassadors.
3:58:05That's what they're trying to do, is outlive me.
3:58:07I understand that.
3:58:08I took the court on.
3:58:10They want to outlive it.
3:58:11Well, it's like any ball game.
3:58:12You get a break every now and then.
3:58:13That's one of the breaks we're going to get.
3:58:15Someday.
3:58:15We're going to wake up in the morning, and one of the guys is going to be gone.
3:58:20That'll change our course.
3:58:23Just one of the changes we're going to make.
3:58:27And that's going to make an enormous difference.
3:58:31At their age, something's got to happen.
3:58:33That's it.
3:58:34That's it.
3:58:34It's not the average.
3:58:35Something could even happen to them.
3:58:36To Marshall?
3:58:37Marshall's a prime prospect.
3:58:39And he's constantly sick of them.
3:58:44Well, there's that.
3:58:44Unfortunately, something could happen to Harlan, too.
3:58:49Well, that's one of the problems.
3:58:52Now, we're burning Morgan out, which is another problem that I have.
3:58:58And he's been under a lot of pressure on this thing.
3:59:02And that's one of the things I've got to talk to Mitchell about, because his relationship with Morgan has been very tough.
3:59:18So, I've asked Mark to take some time off, but we can't until this whole thing is settled down.
3:59:30Next year is going to be ten times worse than this year.
3:59:34I've got to start bringing somebody in to understand the market.
3:59:38You've got anybody in mind?
3:59:40No.
3:59:42I think we have to look at this as really a two-year problem.
3:59:45Next year is going to be much more important, much tougher on the whole school faculty side.
3:59:53Where does Krogh stand now?
3:59:54He's still in charge of...
3:59:57He's doing the narcotics thing, but he's also spending most of his time on Ellsberg.
4:00:04declassification and the dirty tricks business on getting stuff out.
4:00:09I had them in today and we went over a lot of things.
4:00:13Tomorrow I had a general counsel from defense and Marty and the guy from the state plus and talked about what we have to give a congressional committee.
4:00:26We're going to tell the marshal all of their stuff and bring it in so we can review it.
4:00:34No, Apostle.
4:00:35Are we having a success in getting the Congress to agree and adjourn until it's not happening?
4:00:44Well, no, I haven't tried to get them to agree until I knew what we had to give them.
4:00:48That's for sure.
4:00:50And it's taken this long to pull everything together because the Ellsberg case took this funny bounce where it became pretty clear as I got farther and farther into it that Ellsberg's guilty of what he's charged with, which is stealing the documents and copying them.
4:01:03But that he probably didn't give them to the New York Times.
4:01:09Well, we think that Gelb did.
4:01:13Gelb?
4:01:14From the Brookings Institute?
4:01:16Now that's speculation at this point, and this is something I'll know a lot more about tomorrow.
4:01:21Gelb had the sound papers?
4:01:23Gelb was on the same team.
4:01:25He was in charge of this project of writing this thing.
4:01:28Did he work for Kissinger?
4:01:30No, that was Halperin.
4:01:32But the thing is, you see, Ellsberg has this enormous ego, and he wants to be recognized as an expert on Vietnam, and he's trampling around the country saying he did this.
4:01:50And that's what's throwing people off.
4:01:54The FBI is
4:01:57very doubtful on this, but the Defense Department investigators are totally convinced that Ellsberg did not feed this stuff to the Times.
4:02:06And so, I want to review this tomorrow.
4:02:09I suppose the Times is delighted with that, because they threw it off the track.
4:02:16They're trying to protect Gelman.
4:02:19Is Gelman over?
4:02:20I don't think so.
4:02:24Now, we have a break on Brookings.
4:02:27Lord Gray is a trustee of Brookings and is going on a three-man executive committee.
4:02:33And he is working with us.
4:02:37Is he?
4:02:37Yeah.
4:02:37Well, he would be a patriot, I'm sure.
4:02:39I've talked to him.
4:02:40Crowley Young has spent a lot of time with him.
4:02:42Does he know how desperate and political it is?
4:02:44Yes.
4:02:45I don't mean petty enough people, but Brookings got all the time.
4:02:49He didn't know when he went in, apparently, or he wasn't aware of the ramifications of it.
4:02:54But we've made him aware of some of the things that are going on there, and he's going to work with us.
4:02:59And he is feeding us information as it comes to him.
4:03:04So we do have one inside man there.
4:03:06I've used your name in talking with him.
4:03:09I believe you're intimately familiar with what he's doing for us and all this stuff.
4:03:14So he's...
4:03:16And we're trying to bring him in sometime, but we'll have to come back.
4:03:24The next time there's a foreign intelligence advisory board.
4:03:27If you can keep him afterwards, or I don't know why, I'll set him up.
4:03:31So tomorrow, we'll review all this stuff.
4:03:34We tried to do, we had one little operation that aborted that in Los Angeles.
4:03:43which I think it's better that you don't know about, but we've got some dirty tricks underway that may pay off.
4:03:54We've planted a bunch of stuff with colonists, some of which will begin to surface shortly, and think about some of this group, about an Ellsberg lawyer, about the Bay of Pigs,
4:04:10Some of this stuff is going to start servicing with columnists that are somewhat respectful.
4:04:15We have Terhorst and people like that.
4:04:17Good, good.
4:04:19We're running into a little problem.
4:04:21I've got to talk to Helms about making some documents, which the CIA have, on bad things and things like that, which they would rather not see.
4:04:32Well, it's a challenge.
4:04:32It's going to be hard.
4:04:33Yeah, they're very sensitive.
4:04:35Helms has done it.
4:04:37It's been awkward.
4:04:38Of course, the CIA...
4:04:41That's what Alan Bell is from the head, but Alan is the operator.
4:05:01He's working with us.
4:05:03Is he?
4:05:03Yeah.
4:05:03Well, he would be our patron, I'm sure.
4:05:05I've talked to him.
4:05:06Crowley Young has spent a lot of time with him.
4:05:09Does he know how desperate and political he is?
4:05:11Yes.
4:05:11I don't mean to cut him off, but he's been working on the whole thing.
4:05:14He didn't know when he went in, apparently, or he wasn't aware of the ramifications of it.
4:05:20But we've made him aware of some of the things that are going on there, and he's going to work with us.
4:05:26And he is feeding us information as it comes to him.
4:05:30So we do have one inside man there.
4:05:32I've used your name in talking with him.
4:05:36I don't think you're intimately familiar with what he's doing for us and all this stuff.
4:05:41So he's...
4:05:43And we're trying to bring him in sometime, but we'll have to come back.
4:05:50The next time there's a foreign intelligence advisory board.
4:05:53If you can keep him afterwards, or I don't know why, I'll set him up.
4:05:59So, tomorrow we'll review all this stuff.
4:06:01We tried to do, we had one little operation that aborted out in Los Angeles.
4:06:10which I think it's better that you don't know about, but we've got some dirty tricks underway that may pay off.
4:06:21We've planted a bunch of stuff with colonists, some of which will begin to service shortly, and think about some of this group, about Ellsberg's lawyer, about the Bay of Pigs,
4:06:37Some of this stuff is going to start servicing with columnists who are somewhat respectful.
4:06:42You have Terhorst and people like that.
4:06:44Good, good.
4:06:45We're running into a little problem.
4:06:47I've got to talk to Helms about making some documents, which the CIA had on bad things and things like that, which they would rather not see now.
4:06:58Well, it's a challenge.
4:06:59It's going to be hard.
4:07:00Yeah.
4:07:00They're very sensitive.
4:07:01Helms has done it and it's been awkward.
4:07:04Of course, the CIA has.
4:07:07Well, it is, yeah.
4:07:09Helms, this, they, that's what, Allen Bell is in the head, but Helms, yes, Helms is the operator.
4:07:14So Helms knows everything about it.
4:07:17And on this, too, you don't have your concern in a civil position because so many of the people involved here are frankly close to the society.
4:07:31Well, that's one of the things that we keep bumping into in this thing.
4:07:36that they weren't students or consultants or friends or something like that.
4:07:44They were much closer to the building.
4:07:52The assassination, the gem episode, is on ice for the moment.
4:07:58There will be a non-election.
4:07:59Yeah, they'll let it go.
4:08:01They will.
4:08:01They'll let it go.
4:08:02Believe me, that's a good one.
4:08:07Another subject.
4:08:08As you know, the Pendleton lease was executed, and that slurry's been released, but the foundation land was accepted out.
4:08:19That is the library land.
4:08:20And I still don't have a decent legal opinion as to how to pull this off.
4:08:25But we've got a good lawyer working on it.
4:08:28And probably we're going to need legislation when I think we're doing it.
4:08:33Can't we get the... We've got to make sure the Armed Services Committee...
4:08:37Right.
4:08:37Right there.
4:08:38Here, I think we could just go ahead and look at another piece of land.
4:08:42I think so.
4:08:43What better use of the land could we make?
4:08:45I really don't think it's going to be a problem.
4:08:48I think it's very important to do this before the end of the issue.
4:08:51Oh, absolutely.
4:08:51Otherwise, we're going to have to... Well, I've got some fire under, and we should have something before the show.
4:09:02See, I guess that's about all I have.
4:09:03Well, that's the next.
4:09:48Eddie had a little flurry with the SEC, but Herb got right into that and straightened out.
4:09:55It's a very strict regulation, and they were a technical violation in a couple of things, apparently.
4:10:06Allegedly, we were able to clean it up.
4:10:08Herb got it cleaned up.
4:10:09He slipped the door back in.
4:10:12No, no, he's still calling.
4:10:14He's out in, in, uh, as a matter of form.
4:10:17His brother is the, uh, the nominal head of it.
4:10:20And, uh, well, it's very hard, you know, to, um, listen to him.
4:10:23How do you, did that sound about as clean as it could get?
4:10:30Yeah, it was in the mouth of the mill.
4:10:33It was the, uh,
4:10:46How about this Los Angeles Times proposal?
4:10:51I'm not attached to that.
4:10:54That was breaking pretty heavy about 11 a week ago, and I haven't had a chance to talk to the voters to see what...
4:11:03I suggested to them that list of questions, a heavy list of questions.
4:11:10that Dean's guy go out and talk to D.D.
4:11:13about.
4:11:13I want to quote these requests that were put to us.
4:11:17To us?
4:11:18To us.
4:11:19By who?
4:11:19By Newsday.
4:11:21Oh, I know them.
4:11:22Well, I mean, sure, but they indicate the direction in which this thing is going.
4:11:27And it's pretty interesting, because what it is is a very thorough examination of the relationship between Bozo and Smadden.
4:11:38And there's a lot of dealing there.
4:11:43Now, what they're trying to do is... What is their question with regard to me, is whether I had... Oh, yeah.
4:11:48Yeah, a lot of stuff about whether you had silent interests in some of Rebozo's deals, and did you ever intervene with the SBA?
4:11:56What did you pay for your Fishers Island stock?
4:11:59And did you know that Smathers owned a house on Bay Lane?
4:12:04And did you know who were the beneficial owners of another house on Bay Lane?
4:12:10A lot of, a lot of stuff of this kind.
4:12:12And those, I guess, that's one question.
4:12:14I don't really know.
4:12:16How do you, how do you like that?
4:12:19Well, I didn't stonewall it here.
4:12:22Just absolutely.
4:12:23You have to figure it out.
4:12:24Let me tell you, there's no problem.
4:12:25I know this.
4:12:25I have absolutely no ignorance of any of these.
4:12:27I know it.
4:12:28I know it.
4:12:28I bought the Fisher's Islands about a year ago.
4:12:29So there's not anybody else that sold them and hasn't lost them.
4:12:32Well, we're a bozos.
4:12:32It's not that they're running into those back in the years.
4:12:36And before you ever knew it.
4:12:38You know the real life of the Fisher's Islands is not how they were before.
4:12:44It might not have been shared.
4:12:50Sure.
4:12:50Well, I thought it was important that we know what the answers to these questions are.
4:12:59I don't think that we ought to give any cooperation to this thing.
4:13:14They stuck in there, John.
4:13:18he has an impeccable reputation and which i think matters i don't know what they're accurate on well if they say the piece
4:13:45did something with the government.
4:13:48He's in all these deals.
4:13:49Fisher's Island is part of it.
4:13:52He owned the house, Hypochlor's house.
4:13:55And the Coco Globo, all those things.
4:14:00That's all.
4:14:01Did they ask about Coco Globo?
4:14:02Yes.
4:14:03But that's all in there.
4:14:05I'd like to, suppose though they come out and say that I had a mission on this.
4:14:12I don't think you have a cause of action.
4:14:16Well, maybe you do, but I'm thinking it's just an assertion, a fact, where you've proved malice.
4:14:22I guess you do.
4:14:24Well, you know, that Sullivan case.
4:14:26Yeah, let's see, the Sullivan case just about takes a libel action totally away from the public official.
4:14:31Yes, it does.
4:14:31And even when you've proved malice, you're going to not feel a struggle.
4:14:39But if all else matters, you're no longer in public life.
4:14:43Or be.
4:14:43But, uh, why?
4:14:46We're really trying, aren't we?
4:14:47I don't want to lie in the Senate, but, uh, investigation.
4:14:58What do you think they're doing?
4:15:01They're all in a scandal.
4:15:02And, uh, I would guess it would start with the lawyers and say, but I don't know.
4:15:06No, I think it's from the government.
4:15:08Yes, that's a good hunch.
4:15:10That's a good hunch.
4:15:11I forgot he was there.
4:15:12I think this is Gallup in Los Angeles.
4:15:14Yeah, they own it now.
4:15:16They're aware of the whole thing and they support it too.
4:15:21It's some guy named Greenstein, Greenberg, or something.
4:15:26They're managing editor that's running it.
4:15:31But, uh...
4:15:31They have runs extroversional on them.
4:15:32Yeah.
4:15:34and we've heard we've we've tried to do a little what that baby was saying a couple months ago that they struck out they came back again well we sent a guy out to try and find out what they knew and he came back and said that it appears they didn't have enough to go and i think that was the basis for bb's saying that we have this little undercover guy and
4:16:02We sent him back down the track.
4:16:03I'm not sure it's matters.
4:16:05What matters is what it counts.
4:16:12You know, he was in the basement.
4:16:14That's one of the reasons he got out of the home.
4:16:19He was scared to death.
4:16:21I see.
4:16:21On this one, there was nothing.
4:16:22There were young fish around the home.
4:16:25I had no concern about that.
4:16:29That's a place where there were so damn many people in it.
4:16:32I think if this thing comes out, then we ought to come right back.
4:16:46and lay out what it has cost you in dollars and cents to be President of the United States.
4:16:54You're not giving up $150,000 in the law firm.
4:16:57Your law firm sell-out, your sacrifice sale of your Fisher's Island, all the things that you've given up, and make a story out of that.
4:17:08Cost a great deal.
4:17:10Sure.
4:17:11You better give up that for the law firm.
4:17:15Yeah.
4:17:18Well, you lost the money on your apartment, I'm sure, when you sold that in New York.
4:17:24I'm sure.
4:17:25You sold the apartment for so much, and it's worth now so much.
4:17:34I think we can, particularly the law firm, that's a hell of a thing.
4:17:38And we deserve that.
4:17:39It's never been said.
4:17:41We deserve that.
4:19:25Well, we've got it very good.
4:19:26Let's get that record together.
4:19:30Now, what have we got?
4:19:30Well, I've got a little file on this.
4:19:32And we, and also I, I have done, I think I've done it.
4:19:37We've done some research to get that, that whole San Clemente thing.
4:19:40Well, there's a lot of those around.
4:19:41There's that.
4:19:42There is?
4:19:42Yeah.
4:19:43What do they want?
4:19:44We'll get the progress in a week now.
4:19:45Yeah.
4:19:46There's been people out investigating the title.
4:19:48And Herb's got that title so, so done that nobody can find out.
4:19:52Yeah.
4:19:53who was just driving the crate who owns it all right it's in the title of it's in the name of title terms and trust me and of course ronco siciliano's president of ti and they can't get up they can't get anybody at ti to talk to all right we can't find out who the beneficial owner is
4:20:12When you acquire the property, I have... Who is the beneficiary?
4:20:16Oh, you are.
4:20:17You are.
4:20:18Oh, yes.
4:20:18Behind that.
4:20:19Sure.
4:20:20Yes.
4:20:20As I understand it, I own just four and a half acres.
4:20:24You own four and a half acres?
4:20:25Yes.
4:20:25All right.
4:20:26Four hundred feet of beach.
4:20:27All right.
4:20:27All right.
4:20:28And then you have these two partners in the balance.
4:20:33They are partners of mine.
4:20:34Right.
4:20:37Yeah, you still have a first option.
4:20:39All the rest of them probably have an option.
4:20:41They have a partnership position, too.
4:20:43They can't sell you out.
4:20:45But I have plenty of money.
4:20:47No, but you see, you've got, in effect, your beginning equity.
4:20:52Which is?
4:20:52Well, it isn't anything, but we valued it in something, and you're a participant.
4:20:57You're in that.
4:20:58With that, they put up the money, you had the properties, and so you had the... What do I answer, like a buddy says, to the world?
4:21:06You say that you own outright the house and the immediate grounds, the beach in front of it.
4:21:15The balance of it is being held in trust until it's determined.
4:21:25That's what I said.
4:21:27at the time that it was acquired, and I talked to the press.
4:21:30And that was because the Foundation hadn't decided where to locate, and I think it's changed.
4:21:35So you're still saying that?
4:21:36Yeah.
4:21:38And it can still be used for compensation.
4:21:41It can be used for anything.
4:21:42That's a red herring.
4:21:42What did they say about the golf thing?
4:21:44Well, of course, that's on the record.
4:21:46And we've said, well, these nice golf people in Orange County, in our publicized Orange County as the golf capital of the world, wanted to do this.
4:21:53And it's on the property adjoining the president's property.
4:21:56And so it's...
4:21:58a great thing for the president to have there.
4:22:02And it's the kind of a use that adds to the landscaping that doesn't determine the future use of the ground.
4:22:19up there at the hill and say you want to retain that rock.
4:22:23Are you going to hold it for investment or are you going to hold it for protection?
4:22:26Or do you not even say it and hold that for compensation?
4:22:33Anything to do with that?
4:22:33Yeah.
4:22:34Who would you like?
4:22:36Who?
4:22:36The water services.
4:22:37Oh, they do?
4:22:39From here.
4:22:40Both from here and the L.A. here.
4:22:41Oh.
4:22:43Well, they probably wouldn't quit.
4:22:45I imagine.
4:22:47Other ones we haven't had a specific review of.
4:22:52John Dean?
4:22:55Dean.
4:22:55He says, well, we don't have anything to add to what was said at the time of the acquisition.
4:23:05Four and a half, yeah.
4:23:06We gave him some numbers at that time, valued at $360,000.
4:23:11And...
4:23:12Then they say, well, who's paying interest on the contract and all that kind of stuff.
4:23:20And who is the right person to do it?
4:23:22No, that's where the median box comes in.
4:23:23They're paying the interest on the carrying of the contract.
4:23:29You pay some interest.
4:23:31On your chair, on your bed, or whatever it is.
4:23:37Well, it's the only, I guess, clean way to do it, isn't it?
4:23:43They're so clean.
4:23:43Me and Bob are so clean, you see.
4:23:45But even when that's disclosed, there's not a problem.
4:23:47Because neither one of their friends of mine, they wanted to see that nobody would buy a property next to mine.
4:23:53We have good partners, right?
4:23:55Is that what you're saying?
4:23:57Okay.
4:23:57I'll let you just keep that up there.
4:24:17You could throw out the idea that sometimes it might be useful.
4:24:24You see, you've got a little struggle in there.
4:24:26The Johnson residence was sort of made into a monument.
4:24:33Across the road are five.
4:24:36The Eisenhardt residence is going to be different.
4:24:40It already has been.
4:24:42It has been, yeah.
4:24:46And you can find out through this.
4:24:48Well, at some point, when we can get this other thing put together, and we go to a day there,
4:24:56We're going to have to then drop the other shoe and say what the plans are for the balance of this property.
4:25:03I would say then that it is important to the protection of your privacy during the time that you're present.
4:25:13And that Aflanoff and Rebozo have come forward and made it financially possible to hold that land in an undeveloped condition during that period of time.
4:25:23And that no future decision
4:25:26with regard to its use, will be made until after you leave the office.
4:25:32Like that.
4:25:33And if they say, well, would it be used for foundation?
4:25:35Well, maybe it would.
4:25:36Well, would it be developed for houses?
4:25:38Well, maybe it would.
4:25:40But that's a decision.
4:25:41It isn't going to be made until after the president.
4:25:51Well, I've still got her in the ballgame with Elkins.
4:25:55on the balance of that property.
4:26:01And Elmore wants a life tenancy, which works out pretty nicely.
4:26:06So Herb is going to see if over the period of this winter he can get Elmore to sit down and talk to him about giving your partnership an option subject to a life tenancy.
4:26:23Yeah.
4:26:25Well, yeah, probably would.
4:26:31Yeah, that's at the Helena Hotel site or something.
4:26:34Correct.
4:26:36You could probably go to the city of San Clemente and get a zone so they could have it.
4:26:44Yeah.
4:26:49I don't think it does in the situation that you have.
4:26:53That probably still will.
4:26:56The rest of what the golf course part, I wouldn't want something stuck out.
4:27:01Oh, there.
4:27:02Oh, no.
4:27:02I think we ought to retain that.
4:27:03Oh, but the horse ranch, where the ring is, you know, all that stuff.
4:27:06It can't affect that.
4:27:06No.
4:27:06But you can make a terrific amount of money on that land.
4:27:10You own it.
4:27:10Absolutely.
4:27:11Oh, yeah.
4:27:12Medical for money is something like that.
4:27:20Well, that's just a natural.
4:27:22It's a clean investment.
4:27:23It's going to appreciate value enormously.
4:27:26Well, it isn't the government.
4:27:30Well, it is.
4:27:30Are we doing something here like Johnson-Claiborne on land next to government bases and that sort of thing?
4:27:43It's legitimate for you to protect your home by controlling the development around it.
4:27:52And I have Brett, who wrote the book, like I said.
4:27:56It's certainly a lot cleaner than Eisenhower's deal, where his friends bought it and gave it to him.
4:27:59Is that what they did?
4:28:00Well, sure, they bought this farm for him.
4:28:03Stockton.
4:28:03I know they gave it to him.
4:28:06The panel.
4:28:07They bought the farm.
4:28:11This is, I put it up on my own card, and I gave it to him.
4:28:19That's a good tax deal for that.
4:28:22It's a shelter, maybe they can deduct the interest.
4:28:26It passes through so they don't lose anything.
4:28:30So it deems this situation the same as it has before.
4:28:42We make this deal on penalties.
4:28:45We very carefully structure the announcement.
4:28:51Because basically the feeling, the impression now is, in other words, that this tentatively might be used as a foundation.
4:28:58And although they're more and more getting away from that because they know that Irvine and Whittier are under consideration because they've talked to some of the trustees.
4:29:09So they're beginning to recognize the fact that maybe this won't mean
4:29:15I keep, between now and then, being convinced that this is one of the options.
4:29:20This is either possibly a foundation science term.
4:29:23We know that that is one possibility.
4:29:26Or we're pushing the foundation as a matter of fact.
4:29:30We're just keeping very close to the moment.
4:29:34We don't have answers.
4:29:37I don't mind if John Johnson never answered anything.
4:29:42No.
4:29:42No, I don't.
4:29:43I don't know if he ever answered anything.
4:29:46They never ask anything.
4:29:46I would just keep it very, very, very clear.
4:29:49You know, they may get in that four of them.
4:29:55They really feel it.
4:29:56I mean, they may feel it for both of them.
4:30:02and they know, but I think what really is more, they're more after Smatter.
4:30:07Because they know Smatter is in the making.
4:30:09They know Smatter is capable of this kind of thing.
4:30:12That's really the truth.
4:30:12Well, he's a lobbyist, and he's a greedy man.
4:30:15He's a large, and frankly, a little loose.
4:30:17His wife is divorcing him, or his brother, I don't know which of the two it is.
4:30:21It's his wife.
4:30:21It's his wife.
4:30:24But nevertheless, the point about that is that
4:30:29proposal was really clean, and he had been pretty careful with that.
4:30:33And they go back, and I think they've had a hell of a time planning it.
4:30:36Oh, they have.
4:30:36There's no question about it.
4:30:38And the Fisher Island, before that, the Fisher Island, I'd like to share it with you.
4:30:46All right.
4:30:48Thank you.
4:30:50That's going to look pretty good.
4:30:53I think it's probably a going-apart challenge about the rescue program for .
4:31:09I will have made money.
4:31:11You made money, but you made money out of circumstances before you went into the office.
4:31:16Christ, yes, I bought the property over a tree many years.
4:31:19But you see, there's all this tension now about the program of dredging and building bridges and all this kind of stuff that adds to the value of the property.
4:31:28But they know I have no interest in it.
4:31:30Or maybe they think, do they ask whether I have an interest in it?
4:31:33No.
4:31:34They know there's no questions.
4:31:35We're saying the fact that you're saying it.
4:31:38So they know.
4:31:40And we were very explicit about that.
4:31:41And what the hell were they trying to get at?
4:31:43They were trying to get at the question of some early dealings in the stock of that corporation.
4:31:52And somebody, as a trustee, bought stock very cheap.
4:31:58And they're asking whether you were a beneficiary of the trust.
4:32:06In other words, we would still retain any interest in the stock.
4:32:11See, somebody back early in the history of that corporation appointed one of the attorneys as his trustee.
4:32:17And the attorney bought a lot of stock in two beds or something.
4:32:22Really?
4:32:22And still holds it.
4:32:24They are asking whether you have an interest in that trust.
4:32:27Why don't you say no?
4:32:29Well, see, if we want to start answering questions.
4:32:32I'd let the bastards prep something like that.
4:32:34Sure.
4:32:34They can't, they can't turn that in.
4:32:38No, they can't do it.
4:32:39Of course I haven't done it.
4:32:41And they've gone to the attorney and he's kicked them out.
4:32:46And they can charge you and all of that.
4:32:48He'll talk to them.
4:32:49Absolutely right.
4:32:49Absolutely right.
4:32:50Well, I don't know what he's doing.
4:32:54Of course, if his wife's divorcing him, a lot of his voters will come out.
4:33:04I understand that it's being worked out by the H.P.
4:33:13Center for Lawyers and the case.
4:33:15It's partly settled by the agreement.
4:33:18I thought it was going to be a follow-up on what you suggested.
4:33:22I agree that it is by agreement that it happened.
4:33:27Well, on Bay Lane Park, it wasn't worth it to be in there.
4:33:30Well, who's supposed to have any problem?
4:33:32The government is leasing those houses.
4:33:35I know that.
4:33:36One of them is held by half a mile and leased to the government.
4:33:40The other one is held by somebody I never heard of.
4:33:45and uh one of them is leased by the secret service and the other is leased by the military yeah but the the question is do you have any beneficial interest in one of those and yeah what relation do you have to know joe schmuck who owns that house and
4:34:06We've never heard of him.
4:34:07We know him.
4:34:08I don't know Joe's mom.
4:34:08But see, that's the thing.
4:34:09And so they didn't have any interest in each other.
4:34:11That's what they're trying to follow that trail on.
4:34:13Well, it's legitimate.
4:34:14It's legitimate to trust me.
4:34:15They're not going to buy anything from me.
4:34:16You know what I mean?
4:34:19They must be irritating to the shit out of them.
4:34:25I don't like them.
4:34:25They're guys in debt.
4:34:27Poor guys down there.
4:34:29They're rolling expensive accounts and all that.
4:34:31And it pushes them.
4:34:37And the Johnson experience leads him to think that they probably would find some treasure.
4:34:41You know, it's pretty clear, isn't it?
4:34:44Take the dock.
4:34:46That's what Cowdy Parker wanted to know.
4:34:52they probably right now elaborately worked out the variances and the votes of the county supervisors and all that kind of stuff.
4:34:59That's definitely a valuable thing for the county to have.
4:35:01It's a dock and a helicopter kind of area that you can use to get in the roads.
4:35:07And it's not at the value that I thought it was going to be.
4:35:10He tracks it there.
4:35:12He sure does.
4:35:12He has us there next to a dock.
4:35:14That I suppose we haven't learned that much about.
4:35:21You don't have to say, I have a private safe, I have a doctorate.
4:35:25That is an easy question.
4:35:31Right.
4:35:33Right.
4:35:59I don't know if you know what the only thing I have in the world, or at least you know, is a vacant lot on the border of the Federal Islands.
4:36:11My mother-in-law started to live on it.
4:36:20And that is all.
4:36:21But not another goddamn thing.
4:36:24That's not very much.
4:36:27You know, you've got some pretty good real estate, but what do you think in terms of net worth?
4:36:32Well, that's a net worth, John, that is dry and safe.
4:36:35There is a net worth that isn't a hell of a lot.
4:36:38We're out there.
4:36:39You've been working for the government all these months, right?
4:36:42And not making any profit.
4:36:43We've had a few good years.
4:36:44Not a problem.
4:36:44I, for eight years, I earned $200,000 a year, but what the hell do I have to insure for that?
4:36:47Your net is all sunk in land.
4:36:49It's all sunk in land.
4:36:51And the whole damn thing is worth a half a million dollars.
4:36:53Right?
4:36:54Well, I hope it's worth a million right now.
4:37:01What's going on?
4:37:03The equity.
4:37:04Yeah.
4:37:05I think your California property is, you've got to worry about it.
4:37:08It's gone up since I bought it last year.
4:37:10San Clemente Vegas generally has gone up more than average Southern California land.
4:37:16And of course yours is unique.
4:37:23It's an important piece of property, and of course, in this case, it's the right distance between the two cities.
4:37:41There's not much of that kind of land left.
4:37:48You won't lose any hope on that deal.
4:37:51Oh, I know that.
4:37:55I'm not going to let them know.
4:37:58I feel very strongly I'm not going to let them know.
4:38:03I don't know about the Sullivan case or whether we have to, you know, name them, but I hope you can talk to them.
4:38:13I understand, but I don't think that maybe an ex-president can pursue their life.
4:38:18I don't think a president in the United States can pursue their life.
4:38:22You know what I'm saying?
4:38:25I forgot that.
4:38:28That's two bits, right?
4:38:31I forgot that.
4:38:32Two bits.
4:38:32I haven't drunk.
4:38:33I haven't drunk.
4:38:37That's what you prove wrong.
4:38:38You have to drink wine.
4:38:38I think under the Sullivan case, they could get away with it.
4:38:42I remember the Sullivan case.
4:38:43They're common.
4:38:46But, you know, the Bible says you know the Lord for another reason than me.
4:38:55Yeah.
4:38:55So what you do is you're blasting a lot of... Well, I'd say you've got the best poker in the world with me.
4:39:03I wouldn't do it myself.
4:39:04I wouldn't do that here.
4:39:07It's true.
4:39:12Yeah.
4:39:39Well, you see, that's why they've done it.
4:39:41And then what happened was, each year, the way they did it, they said, this is coming up.
4:39:48They offered, in order to pay the interest on it, they offered to all the existing stockholders the right to buy an additional stockholder at the original cost of a dollar.
4:40:03Then, if any one of the original stockholders did not take Hunter's option, then they allowed the others to take it up.
4:40:12And so I bought more, and for those who did, I would end that contract.
4:40:18Well, that's a pretty straightforward deal, I think.
4:40:20Yeah, sure it is.
4:40:21And I just don't think there's any problem with that.
4:40:25He was in and out of a shopping center and some other deals where he had, you know, other kinds of transactions that didn't involve him.
4:40:33all the time.
4:40:44But I, and as I say, public figures must expect this.
4:40:55It's rather true, though, that we have the power
4:41:06You know, they have really tried to crucify old Lewis.
4:41:22Bob Afanon.
4:41:24I mean, while we've been in office here.
4:41:26Bob Afanon.
4:41:28And John Wayne, according to Paul Keyes, after 1964, he did one stinking commercial group.
4:41:36Go on.
4:41:37Well, they have made him a goddamn martyr.
4:41:42What the hell are we doing?
4:41:44You see, we have a new man over there.
4:41:47I know the other guy didn't do anything.
4:41:49Oh, you mean the IRS?
4:41:50Yeah.
4:41:51Why are we going after their tax returns?
4:41:53I get a lot of names.
4:41:55There's a lot of gold in them.
4:41:57I remember in 1962, do you remember what they did to me in California?
4:42:02I remember there was some station in Raleigh.
4:42:05And I find that I learned how they owed me more money.
4:42:09In fact, I retired from the Social Security State.
4:42:15I'm curious.
4:42:17I can only hope that we are, frankly, persecuting them.
4:42:24We ought to persecute them in any way we can.
4:42:31And on the IRS, in the future,
4:42:43Are we looking into Muskie's returns?
4:42:45Does he have any?
4:42:46Gilbert's been in a lot of spotting deals with SEMs.
4:42:49Teddy?
4:42:51Who knows about the Kennedys?
4:42:52Should Teddy be interested in being put around here in person?
4:42:56We are.
4:42:56IRS-wise, I don't know the answer.
4:42:58Teddy, we are covering.
4:42:59All right.
4:43:01First of all,
4:43:03No, it's very clean.
4:43:10Very clean.
4:43:15Be careful now.
4:43:16He was kawaii and young.
4:43:19He was standing under some guy's belt.
4:43:22And we had a guy in the rear gun.
4:43:23And he was just as nice as he could be the whole time.
4:43:28The thing to do is just watch him, because what happens to the fellow who went back, who had that kind of cough, he's going to go up in a very cool way.
4:43:38That's what I'm hoping for.
4:43:41I don't think he's afraid of what he is.
4:43:45This time between now and the convention time, he would be under great pressure.
4:43:57He would be under pressure, but he would also be out of the limelight.
4:44:02Now he was in Hawaii, pretty much incarnated.
4:44:06Very little staff.
4:44:07And the lighthouse flew around.
4:44:11Just the good people.
4:44:14and socialize and so on.
4:44:18So you would expect a time like that you might catch him.
4:44:23And then he went up to Hyannis.
4:44:27Yeah, big time.
4:44:29Six kids.
4:44:30And very ordinary.
4:44:35Teddy.
4:44:49I mean, we were over on the part of the vision last week.
4:44:54And I had never seen that sub before, that Chapel Quiddick, that Edgar Town Ferry.
4:45:00That is a very short swim.
4:45:01I hadn't seen it now.
4:45:02I was at Eastland that night.
4:45:06I don't even see why they, you know, they could go bridge across there.
4:45:11Very short distance.
4:45:13And it's no problem compared to Westland.
4:45:17And not a bed of tides the time we were there.
4:45:19So it was quite interesting how the pictures that the kids would have made and how short a distance he really was.
4:45:27But we do cover him when he goes down hands.
4:45:31He will never leave that town.
4:45:33No, I don't think so.
4:45:34Not that one.
4:45:35I think we're going to have his name forever.
4:45:41Remember, his wife was divorced.
4:45:42Divorced.
4:45:44They were all dead.
4:45:46They brought one of the babies.
4:45:52They were all dead wives.
4:45:54Well, they were not.
4:45:54Nobody knew he had a personal relationship.
4:45:57But this thing has a geographic identity that's interesting.
4:45:59And they tell me that the business on that ferry has tripled since his accident.
4:46:05People going over to look at the bridge and to go walking around.
4:46:13I think it's getting into the folklore.
4:46:16Yeah, Timmy showed that in the column.
4:46:20Oh, it's getting out into the common columns now, instead of just orgasmic state.
4:46:29Can I just catch you?

Nixon & Ehrlichman on Busing and Antitrust

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