On September 8, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, John D. Ehrlichman, and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 3:26 pm to 5:10 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 274-044 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
I'm just between draft now.
Is there anything you'd like to ask about?
All set, sir.
Finally, a person takes place.
Friday morning, good.
Why don't you do that with the Japanese, uh... Good.
Eight o'clock or... Are you?
Well, I'll be there.
Well, I'll be there, so that's all I'm gonna do.
That's when you want to do it.
All right, hell yeah, see if you can sit through the whole thing.
I'm all in on you.
Yes!
I'm between drafts at the moment.
Do you have anything you'd like to go over?
Yeah, but if you come in any time, I'll be here for another hour and a half before they finish the extract.
So finish with him whenever you want.
Anytime before 5 o'clock.
is, uh, now, Mars should not come back yet to G. Yep.
Uh, they do have Nell Yates stand by starting at 5 o'clock.
She'll do the speech copy for us.
Uh, Ray's going to come back with another draft of 5, and then by that time I'm going to start pulling some pages off and getting ready.
I'm going to have it finished by 7.
I'm going to have it about 7.30, in other words, so that I can start the underlying time.
Okay.
Thanks for that.
Well, there's a couple of long things I wanted to visit with you, if I were dead.
We've got John Mitchell-type problems.
The schools are relevant, both schools, and I trust both of them.
And there were a couple of things.
I wish I had been here last week because there were a couple of things that bubbled up.
John rolled market on the Austin case, and he rolled, well, I don't know if rolled is the right word, but he, this Maryland person, he attacked him the way I punched him on it.
But it's a chronic situation with John.
He is so busy.
He doesn't have a chance to master these policies yet.
And then he goes to bat for them.
And he's got so much power that he runs right over somebody like Martin.
So my inclination is to go over and sit down with him.
No.
Well,
The airline thing came up, you know, and I agree we're faced with a problem there, but he had it for McLaren, so he was going to resign.
Now, I told Haldeman on that, and I want John to understand, but he just hadn't threatened that.
He decided maybe that he was going to go.
I cannot have anybody threaten to resign John.
If he doesn't get his way, yeah, frankly, he's got to play on this one.
But I want to find him the hell out of there.
If that's going to, you know, I suppose the political problem isn't anybody, but the Nader's and all the rest of us, they were soft on that.
I don't trust the Senate.
I've got to leave your place.
What kind of a problem is that?
Well, I just don't know.
I don't know what McLaren is.
McLaren is about...
middle of the anti-trust bar.
He's not a leader of the bar.
He is a leader of the bar.
He's a big shot.
Well, he's a medium-sized shot.
Let's put it that way.
You know, the anti-trust section of the American bar is one of these little closed corporations laying under municipal bond lawyers and so on.
And he's about medium-high in there.
If you replaced him with somebody who had the same or greater eminence at that farm, I don't think you'd have any problem.
What ground would we have to push?
And while we're about to force the issue, see, my study is just about finished, and I'm going to present you with a number of antitrust issues.
There is wet pomerane and a lot of fundamental issues.
We've smoked out that whole antitrust division.
What is wet pomerane?
The Web Bombering is an act prohibiting cartels, basically.
That's right.
And we're going to do some of this stuff internationally that we seem to be headed for.
We can't live with that kind of restriction.
So there will be, oh, I don't know, maybe eight very central issues where I think McLaren is going to part companies.
And that would be the time to begin to look for a replacement.
But basically, I think what we have to do is work out a mode of operating of Mitchell again, that where he recognizes, I think if we take the abstract of concrete, it's him agreeing to jump.
I do it in terms of, look, John, if you're going to jump in, this is a call to action.
There is indispensable.
And frankly, can we work out a deal whereby it will work?
Yeah, I don't know.
That would be what's gotta get done.
What I meant is, what is necessary?
Well, I think Mitchell has to agree that he has to recognize the problem.
If you have certain principles, certain objectives in these areas, certain general standards that you want carried out, then those are going to be in conflict with the advice that Mitchell gets from the underlings over there.
and that, as a general proposition, your policies are going to prevail.
Or, if there's some reason why he doesn't think they should, then there's going to be a procedure so that they can be talked out in an orderly fashion.
And he wants to see that.
And he should in the abstract.
And, okay, he will agree to that.
Then, in implementing it,
We can go back to that and say, now look, we agreed we were going to do this, and now let's do it in this case, in this case.
In Austin now, although it was agreed in advance we were going to take a limited appeal, his guys have talked him into taking a very broad appeal.
And they have raised an appeal question regarding
the jury segregation of Mexican-American schools, which in and of itself is not bad, except, as Morgan sees it, I'm sure he's right, if we get a decision this year on that subject, in that case, then all through the campaign next year, we're going to be running into NAACP and all kinds of civil rights cases involving Mexican-Americans
They're just going to run ATW and the Justice Department crazy, and we're going to be caught right square in the middle.
Who is the man in justice who's pushing for that?
I don't know.
And Ed thinks it is North, who has taken Jerry Lawrence's place, but he's not even sure of that.
Ed says, and I'm sure he's right about this, he said if he had a choice, he wanted to screw the president, and he had a choice of being a Justice Department lawyer or an HEW regional director, he would be a Justice Department lawyer.
Because those guys out in the field are in an infinitely superior position to screw us up.
And he said that is really where the problem is.
And he hasn't been successful in persuading people that he's got guys in that civil rights division who are kind of iron runs in on him.
So, I've got to talk to John about this and see if we can, if we can... John knows, I'm sure he does.
I'm sure he does.
But he is defensive as hell about his guys, about his lawyers.
And it's that old...
You know, syndrome.
A guy in the department immediately becomes the advocate of the department.
So there we are.
Well, that's one city.
Is the Austin thing beyond the point of no return?
No, and the interstate road brief is filed.
But interestingly enough, there's been almost no Texas press on it.
It's a sleeper.
The one that's going to hurt us is after the Fifth Circuit ruled.
is if they find the juror segregation of Mexican-Americans down there, then it's going to go to the Supreme Court and modify the route passing the fire.
It can be modified in an argument, and that would have to be the thing that I would get the next one.
Now, Morgan won two-thirds of his battle.
He eliminated two-thirds of the brief in fighting negotiations.
But this thing he couldn't get out.
You know, I knew it was the hullabaloo that apparently must be finally going to ask about this.
But they've got a year before they're going to ask about this.
Did they ask him to revert it?
They asked him to revert it.
He rockled all over the place.
I'm having some letters written to Prince George County.
They must be asking about it because they've got a hot-busting issue there.
And we'll see if we can get it in letter form on the financial press.
I don't think so.
The New York Times today has a credit line, a deadline on sanctions.
Critical event.
Yeah.
Oh, it was all over the place.
It was an ambiguous answer.
It was on both sides.
We had to keep pressing.
They'll take another crack.
Now, we're catching some metal from our friends in the South about our position that no federal line could be used for bussing.
We are interested.
Well, they need the money.
That's their problem.
They're propelled by the court to the bus.
They've got to buy buses, and they can't use up a billion and a half.
We've got the billion and a half.
Well, we will have.
It's coming through.
We'll get it.
And there's going to be some amendments on it.
What I'm asking to be done now is to figure out what kind of an amendment could be offered
that we won't take a position on.
Or by voluntary plan at the request of the community or something of this kind.
So they waive their objections.
Now we'll get an amendment like that and we'll get Baker or somebody to introduce it.
And have it on there and let her go forward.
But you keep your position loud and clear, unambiguous against President.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You have no doubts about it?
None.
None at all.
I don't think many of them.
Shultz has no doubts about that one either?
No.
He realizes more.
Matter of fact, Shultz went to war on his Austin thing with Mitchell, but he couldn't pull it off.
uh but anyway uh well anyway that's a that's what we're i think it's the procedure i'll let you know let's see how i get along and uh but i wanted to know about it because i know you've talked to him frequently and he's never raised either item okay
He didn't raise the airline with him either.
That was raised with Paul.
I can understand.
I can understand.
I've had a couple visits with Vice President since he's been back from his trip.
And we try to get this Office of Intergovernmental Relations thing worked around.
You know, one time
He wanted all intergovernmental relations to be his thing.
He's now off of that.
And he's decided that there should be a director of an office of intergovernmental relations who can nominally report to him, but he should not be the figurehead on intergovernmental relations because of the hostility of Democratic governors toward him.
He was too partisan to agree to that.
So that's a shift.
Sure, we've got some people who are typical, like Gilligan.
He's really a very unlucky son of a bitch, I can imagine.
I can probably tell you.
That's it.
You get an answer, you get a call.
Well, and they end up running, you see.
They've got other people around here.
And that's difficult for Agnew to do.
That's a loss of face and so on.
So we've agreed that we'll press to get somebody
And so I think we're on pretty good foot.
That's a damn hard thing, John, to know how to handle.
It's because he's got lots of energy to do with it.
All the things he enjoys doing, frankly, makes him very happy.
I suspect that's right.
I don't think he much cares about who he can tell.
I think he would enjoy sitting and making a decision that he cannot do, except that he can't with the security company.
Yeah, I just don't know.
Well, but he is concerned about his prerogatives.
He's concerned about being kept informed.
And so we need to get going and set up those procedures to do it.
Well, no, I can't say I have.
I just don't have an internal thing, and that's it.
Comparing him with Connelly is having an alternative.
Connelly is so easy to work with.
He's got his ego.
He's goddamn rough if you don't farm him.
But on the other hand, if you farm him, you work it out.
If it's worked out, it's smooth as glass.
and he uh that's right he wants to be kept informed he wants to be kept in the play and he wants to keep his priorities but that's i don't object to that i think that's right i think he should at the same time he's a doer and he knows how to do things and follow through
And of course, he'd be a monumental figure.
Rather than having a vice president, shouldn't he install braces in the budget?
He knows it's a very risky damn job, and it's hard to find a niche for it.
My own feeling is that this sort of thing, if we did have it, if we were vice presidents, it would really be a case where, actually, if I were discussing, let's say, the channels,
I have it in practically all the time.
What about giving them a portfolio?
When?
Now?
When he's vice president.
When he's secretary of state?
When he's president.
What about Donald Trump in the Senate?
Constitutionally, there's nothing.
That's right.
That's another possibility.
I think that's just kind of winging it.
Well, I had a screwball idea a while back when I was seeing the student body president of Princeton come in.
Oh, yeah.
He was coming in.
Did that happen?
He got smart.
Yeah, of course he did.
Not all student body presidents usually did, the jackass ones.
Well, this one might be.
Princeton has a pretty active student government.
And what happened was this guy just wrote a letter to you, and I answered it.
And he said, my God, somebody answered my letter.
I never thought that would happen.
So I invited him down and so on.
And we got to talking about the vice president one day.
And out of this came the idea that he should go in residence on campus for a week.
Yale has a program.
Yeah.
Now, he wears pretty well at close range.
Very good.
He handles himself.
Well, the reason he, one of the reasons he wears well, and here's where he has a little bit of a recovery.
Extremely
You know, he really is.
He's a very reasonable man.
He's a very adequate person.
You agree or not?
I do.
And some of the best stuff I've seen him do, been at embassy parties, places like that, he's excellent.
Yes, I've heard.
His toast, his grace, his gift.
Now, you just heard of him.
If he went on residence at some place like that for a week,
and rub shoulders with his hands and so on.
It would be a new sensation.
But also, I think the reaction would be predominantly good.
And it might be such a radical...
This is, of course, if we have a situation where he is going to sing it out, we have to force him.
We have to do it.
He'll hate it.
He won't like it.
Why not?
Well, he's hypersensitive.
None of us are.
You've got to take it off.
We all hate to do rallies.
They're a pain in the ass, but you've got to do them.
This business of going down the city and having to take questions from idiots is hard.
Meeting with the Congress, you've got those legislations.
You're being put to do more.
Jury is no use after you've already met them.
If you'd like to just read it, I could have that done.
But you do it.
He is, strangely enough, honest and true.
He simply likes only the, let's face it, those events where he is treated with respect.
And that means embassies, foreign trips, and rallies that are his.
Correct.
Those he does well.
And those won't help us one damn bit.
You know, we've got a hell of a lot of Mexican plants in this old yoke now.
Don't you?
Yeah.
And I think we should put him on the road.
He's better than the other folks.
Oh, yeah.
He's better than steel.
No, he's been a county administrator up in Fresno.
And he likes the job.
Good record.
Very enthusiastic.
He's in the paper today saying the right things.
supports your concept of oeo good spin-off he's a board yeah good stuff in fact we had a run of very interesting uh uh lawyerless statements lately from this guy fletcher from marlon the commissioner of education who was on college this weekend did a hell of a job for him
Of course, I think we were enormously qualified by Burgess to give legitimacy to our position.
But Marlon took it from an educator's standpoint, and he said Brussing had nothing to do with the education of his time.
Brussing was absolutely right about that.
And he said, what we're trying to do here is improve education in this country.
Good, good.
And he was on about 25 minutes, and I'm sure 15 of them was taking up the question.
And he just kept pounding and pounding and pounding.
They were trying to drive a wedge in between him as an educator and you.
And he carried it off you.
It was a pretty little black job.
So, I'm sending a letter from you.
Oh, by all means, you know, congratulate me.
Make the performance.
Make those automatic.
Yeah.
And to Sanchez.
All right.
Just one line.
I thought you did an excellent job in your testimony before the METI-RN.
Yeah.
It was METI-RN.
And their press conference.
And their press conference, METI-RN.
And the other fellow, you had a splendid performance on a very sensitive issue, METI-RN.
Here's Sidney.
But some of these changes that we've made, you know, Marlon Farrell and Sanchez and so on, we're getting people who understand more of the thing.
Too bad John doesn't realize.
I know where there was justices in front of the lawyers.
And we realized who were they.
They were the parents.
They were people who came down here and were inspired by the laws and rules that had been planned for them.
They wanted to go into the business and try to practice it.
And they should be very radical.
Most of them.
And a lot of them are terrible.
A lot of them.
Are they?
Yeah.
Or are they children?
They're children.
We're asking quite a lot of them.
Yeah.
It's one of the big remaining problems.
When would you have seen him?
Well, I wanted to talk to you first.
The other problem that I wanted to talk to him about was the baby that had been erased.
It was the Hoover problem.
Have you talked to him about it?
No.
I phoned Bob while you all were in California and said about this for the time, just because things were coming.
I thought that was based on a conversation tonight.
No.
No, indeed.
And whenever I talk to Mitchell about it, he has said, well, you know, I'm ready, but the President's got to talk to him.
And it occurred to me that maybe Hoover was out there in La Jolla, his hideaway, and that could be a thing that could be put together out there.
But he didn't go out there.
He wouldn't be out there.
So my feeling is that with every day that goes by, we've used up a little more time with him, because I know that there is a progression.
that some lower growth up there are going to try and have at him again.
And the longer we let this run, the more likely we are to get him under fire again and not be able to move him.
I don't know.
I don't know what he's doing.
He's well over 75.
Mitchell is struggling for Pat Gray and apparently told Bob that he's considering this.
He thinks so.
He thinks so now.
See, Gray's been in a position, he's an assistant to AG now, and we've been getting along.
So he thinks that it can work.
So, I, again, I can talk to Mitchell, but I know what he's going to say is that, all right, I'll rate and put you through.
I'm going to see you Monday.
I'll sit down with you.
What are we going to talk about?
Well, he'll say, you should call him over.
Only you can get him to retire.
And so...
What do you think Hoover's reaction would be?
My view would be to come in and say, look, Edgar, here's the problem.
Here's our problem.
Here we are.
We've got another human rights problem, and I haven't passed an election.
No one's survival plan.
You'll be out.
That's what we'll cross.
You aren't going to die.
You'll be admired on it.
On the other hand, not a win, of course.
But I think what we'd better do is we want to make your move when you're on top.
You're on top now.
And you can say, you know, he could be a special consultant or some damn thing and hold some standing and solve some law enforcement problems or something and be embarrassed and get him out of the line.
See, my fellas... Yeah, my fellas that are working with the Bureau are telling me that there are real internal problems in there.
There really are.
And that something's got to be done pretty soon, or there's going to be a borrow.
God, I really wish he'd do it.
He'd do it?
That's the funny part of it.
He had just put a guy in over Sullivan, who was the best career guy.
And...
The only reason that he put his man over Sullivan is that he knows he's got internal problems.
And Sullivan is not playing ball with him, he's playing ball with us.
I have John, I think the author, who I stood with and fought for, and he knows that you're going to give him a dinner, and you're going to give him, you know, all of the goodies of retiring, the medal of freedom, the whole drill.
And he's smart enough to realize that this is his last time around.
Right.
I'll raise it with John.
Okay.
I've just got a couple of other small things.
The congressional boys are asking about a conversation that you may have had with Hebert.
about a bill called H.R.
2.
H.R.
2.
About medical...
I can't recall it.
Well, he may have brought it, he may have raised it, but if he did, I don't know what he was talking about.
When you were with Laird, and...
But Laird was with him.
Maybe Laird remembers something.
Well, let me just, I'll read you this paragraph and see if this... See, A. Laird's planning, he's cut a deal with him.
He said, Secretary Laird was meeting with Speaker...
Jerry Ford, Eddie Hebert, Speaker's Office, in connection with transmittal of the Pentagon Papers.
During this meeting, the President, by phone, spoke to Hebert, Albert, and Ford on a variety of matters.
To the Speaker, Ford, and Secretary, Larry, listening on phone extensions, Hebert asked the President to support H.R.
2, obviously without knowing the nature of the legislation and possible flaws, but realizing the request was difficult to turn down.
In view of a sense of cooperation then being sought on high priority requests, the President said, Mel, take care of it.
A. Bearfield, he cut a deal.
He has a verbal commitment from the press.
He says OMB and HEW's opposition applies to the face of the press.
I never even... Well, if you mention HR2, I don't...
I just can't believe I would have said such a thing.
But...
What I more likely would have said, look, now look into this.
I don't know what the hell the damn thing is.
It's setting up a separate medical department in the Army.
It's a silly thing.
The ATW and OMB say on the merits of things is a bad deal.
The president has unequivocally committed himself to aid their OK.
But if there's any room for ambiguity, I'm not thinking about it.
I'd like you to, you talk to him later.
Okay.
And say, now Mel, I can't recall, I mean, I don't recall ever discussing the substance of this.
It may be that he mentioned a pill, and I said, look, you take care of it.
Can you handle it?
And just let Mel do the very best he can.
Okay.
But Tom and I would prefer to get out of it if we can.
If we can't, then we'll screw around.
Okay.
Very good.
Richardson has been at me and at me in the hopes that you will find it possible in your junk session message to refer to HR1 revenue sharing in a kindly way.
I am.
Okay.
Bulletin.
Both included.
I urge the Congress again to act in this session.
I'm against both.
No, I'm not against recognition, but I'm against the other one.
Well, now, we're doing something.
You're letting us handle the appeal today.
I am.
And at the same time, you're going to hear about a lot of activity in support of this one.
And it's, for one thing, Dick had to do it, right?
And Dick Nathan is leaving OMB to go to AGW to become a deputy undersecretary for welfare.
And so there will be a lot of activity by Nathan.
Good man.
He's a good man, but he and Weinberger don't get along.
And so it's a happy result all the way around.
We'll make an announcement from the White House, and this will be taken as emphasis on H.R.
1 and so forth.
But at the same time, Talon is working very diligently on our secret agenda, which is to prolong, just not to report anything out with the number of H.R. 1.
Well, the Finance Committee will not report out a bill which can be amended on the floor.
See, but the legislative tactic of AGW is to get any damn thing out with the number HR1.
Oh.
So that then they can add the House version to it on the floor and then go to Congress.
Coffee.
No, thank you.
I'm just about finished.
That's all right.
Take a Coke.
Thank you.
Well, you see, H.R.
once said, John, and certainly for, it's very late in the week, for a very deep philosophical reason, and a doubtful one.
or Maggie's got the goddamn name of work.
And I wish there were a way to try that broad, fairly broad experimental approach.
There may be.
If that could be done, I would feel fine about it.
Well, but we can't do that under the H.R.
1 ban.
as an amendment, because Mills will knock that out.
Do you still want me to have, though, in the speech, I urge the Congress to enact?
I think you have to.
I think you have to.
Otherwise, Nick Kotz and the Washington Post and everybody will banter this as an abandonment.
I don't.
And it's a tough line to walk.
I've talked to Moynihan on the phone and explained to him about the one-year slippage.
We've had the cities and the counties and everybody in to explain to him about revenue sharing in the slippage, and we're trying to cover our... We've covered that, I think, for a crisis we've worked with in the last few years.
I urge the Congress to act now.
I urge the Congress to act now.
In this session, I said, now, Richardson wants you to have a private meeting with the law on this, on H.R.
1.
No, no, no, no, no.
Mills wants you to have a private meeting with the law.
I'm not so sure, but what, maybe I should at some point in time, that's not a bad idea.
Because Long has said to Mills, and Mills has told Ricketts, that Long would rather take definitive action on welfare, whether you are president, than anyone else.
You mean I could tell Long to have the experimental program?
Something like that.
All right.
I think that he's going to have a couple of days of hearings.
And I think after the hearings might be the time to do it.
Before the market.
And cut a deal with him.
I will let Richardson suggest it first.
He's going to write you a memo suggesting it.
This bustling is terrible.
difficult thing to handle.
It is.
We know we're on the right side, but I just can tell that the incident in San Francisco, the incident in Michigan, all of this in the case of Matt Burry, Bob Sands.
Let me tell you, there's no better politician than Warren Burry.
He had his finger in the air.
You think he did?
You bet he did.
You bet he did.
Did I tell it for that?
No, no, no.
Isn't that funny?
Yep.
Said the same thing we did.
They gave me help.
It just came out just as nice as pie.
I'm going to call the president.
You see what you've done, in my opinion, by saying the thing you did and the Hedrick-Hedgeroll line and all that, you put yourself between the main body of people and George Wallace.
How is that?
Well, I think you've taken an anti-busting stand that is more moderate, more reasonable, more attractive, and yet you're still anti-busting.
And you said it very clearly, very understandably, everybody knows where you are.
And I think that's a very precious position to maintain.
Even though Wallace says, well, he still doesn't have a cure, correct?
Yeah, but he can't pull that off, you see, because every time he tries, he bumps right into a judge.
And the judge?
The judge knocks him over.
He did in one case.
We're not going to take any executive branch action.
We won't have to.
He's going to be, he's going to have the courts banging away at him.
And I don't think the Justice Department's going to have to do it.
Do you think the Berger dictum will have any effect on these southern courts?
I don't know.
I don't know.
The damn courts are more political on this than they are anything else.
You mean that these are Democratic judges trying to screw us, is that what you mean?
I know that's true in Texas.
Yeah.
And I think it's true other places, too.
Check your card.
Sure.
Sure thing.
I think we both... Black?
That was just Bill's whole thing.
I haven't checked.
Black?
I'm afraid they are.
I'm afraid so.
One of the biggest stakes in this next election, John, is our being able to outlive those ambassadors.
That's what they're trying to do, is outlive me.
I understand that.
I took the court on.
They want to outlive it.
Well, it's like any ball game.
You get a break every now and then.
That's one of the breaks we're going to get.
Someday.
We're going to wake up in the morning, and one of the guys is going to be gone.
That'll change our course.
Just one of the changes we're going to make.
That's right.
And that's going to make an enormous difference.
At their age, something's got to happen.
That's it.
That's it.
It's not the average.
Something could even happen to them.
To Marshall?
Marshall's a prime prospect.
And he's constantly sick of them.
Well, there's that.
Unfortunately, something could happen to Harlan, too.
Well, that's one of the problems.
Now, we're burning Morgan out, which is another problem that I have.
And he's been under a lot of pressure on this thing.
And that's one of the things I've got to talk to Mitchell about, because his relationship with Morgan has been very tough.
So, I've asked Mark to take some time off, but we can't until this whole thing is settled down.
Next year is going to be ten times worse than this year.
I've got to start bringing somebody in to understand the market.
You've got anybody in mind?
No.
I think we have to look at this as really a two-year problem.
Next year is going to be much more important, much tougher on the whole school faculty side.
Where does Krogh stand now?
He's still in charge of...
He's doing the narcotics thing, but he's also spending most of his time on Ellsberg.
declassification and the dirty tricks business on getting stuff out.
I had them in today and we went over a lot of things.
Tomorrow I had a general counsel from defense and Marty and the guy from the state plus and talked about what we have to give a congressional committee.
We're going to tell the marshal all of their stuff and bring it in so we can review it.
No, Apostle.
Are we having a success in getting the Congress to agree and adjourn until it's not happening?
Well, no, I haven't tried to get them to agree until I knew what we had to give them.
That's for sure.
And it's taken this long to pull everything together because the Ellsberg case took this funny bounce where it became pretty clear as I got farther and farther into it that Ellsberg's guilty of what he's charged with, which is stealing the documents and copying them.
But that he probably didn't give them to the New York Times.
Well, we think that Gelb did.
Gelb?
From the Brookings Institute?
Now that's speculation at this point, and this is something I'll know a lot more about tomorrow.
Gelb had the sound papers?
Gelb was on the same team.
He was in charge of this project of writing this thing.
Did he work for Kissinger?
No, that was Halperin.
But the thing is, you see, Ellsberg has this enormous ego, and he wants to be recognized as an expert on Vietnam, and he's trampling around the country saying he did this.
And that's what's throwing people off.
The FBI is
very doubtful on this, but the Defense Department investigators are totally convinced that Ellsberg did not feed this stuff to the Times.
And so, I want to review this tomorrow.
I suppose the Times is delighted with that, because they threw it off the track.
They're trying to protect Gelman.
Is Gelman over?
I don't think so.
Now, we have a break on Brookings.
Lord Gray is a trustee of Brookings and is going on a three-man executive committee.
And he is working with us.
Is he?
Yeah.
Well, he would be a patriot, I'm sure.
I've talked to him.
Crowley Young has spent a lot of time with him.
Does he know how desperate and political it is?
Yes.
I don't mean petty enough people, but Brookings got all the time.
He didn't know when he went in, apparently, or he wasn't aware of the ramifications of it.
But we've made him aware of some of the things that are going on there, and he's going to work with us.
And he is feeding us information as it comes to him.
So we do have one inside man there.
I've used your name in talking with him.
I believe you're intimately familiar with what he's doing for us and all this stuff.
So he's...
And we're trying to bring him in sometime, but we'll have to come back.
The next time there's a foreign intelligence advisory board.
If you can keep him afterwards, or I don't know why, I'll set him up.
So tomorrow, we'll review all this stuff.
We tried to do, we had one little operation that aborted that in Los Angeles.
which I think it's better that you don't know about, but we've got some dirty tricks underway that may pay off.
We've planted a bunch of stuff with colonists, some of which will begin to surface shortly, and think about some of this group, about an Ellsberg lawyer, about the Bay of Pigs,
Some of this stuff is going to start servicing with columnists that are somewhat respectful.
We have Terhorst and people like that.
Good, good.
We're running into a little problem.
I've got to talk to Helms about making some documents, which the CIA have, on bad things and things like that, which they would rather not see.
Well, it's a challenge.
It's going to be hard.
Yeah, they're very sensitive.
Helms has done it.
It's been awkward.
Of course, the CIA...
That's what Alan Bell is from the head, but Alan is the operator.
He's working with us.
Is he?
Yeah.
Well, he would be our patron, I'm sure.
I've talked to him.
Crowley Young has spent a lot of time with him.
Does he know how desperate and political he is?
Yes.
I don't mean to cut him off, but he's been working on the whole thing.
He didn't know when he went in, apparently, or he wasn't aware of the ramifications of it.
But we've made him aware of some of the things that are going on there, and he's going to work with us.
And he is feeding us information as it comes to him.
So we do have one inside man there.
I've used your name in talking with him.
I don't think you're intimately familiar with what he's doing for us and all this stuff.
So he's...
And we're trying to bring him in sometime, but we'll have to come back.
The next time there's a foreign intelligence advisory board.
If you can keep him afterwards, or I don't know why, I'll set him up.
So, tomorrow we'll review all this stuff.
We tried to do, we had one little operation that aborted out in Los Angeles.
which I think it's better that you don't know about, but we've got some dirty tricks underway that may pay off.
We've planted a bunch of stuff with colonists, some of which will begin to service shortly, and think about some of this group, about Ellsberg's lawyer, about the Bay of Pigs,
Some of this stuff is going to start servicing with columnists who are somewhat respectful.
You have Terhorst and people like that.
Good, good.
We're running into a little problem.
I've got to talk to Helms about making some documents, which the CIA had on bad things and things like that, which they would rather not see now.
I don't know.
Well, it's a challenge.
It's going to be hard.
Yeah.
They're very sensitive.
Helms has done it and it's been awkward.
Of course, the CIA has.
Well, it is, yeah.
Helms, this, they, that's what, Allen Bell is in the head, but Helms, yes, Helms is the operator.
So Helms knows everything about it.
And on this, too, you don't have your concern in a civil position because so many of the people involved here are frankly close to the society.
Well, that's one of the things that we keep bumping into in this thing.
that they weren't students or consultants or friends or something like that.
They were much closer to the building.
The assassination, the gem episode, is on ice for the moment.
There will be a non-election.
Yeah, they'll let it go.
They will.
They'll let it go.
Believe me, that's a good one.
Another subject.
As you know, the Pendleton lease was executed, and that slurry's been released, but the foundation land was accepted out.
That is the library land.
And I still don't have a decent legal opinion as to how to pull this off.
But we've got a good lawyer working on it.
And probably we're going to need legislation when I think we're doing it.
Can't we get the... We've got to make sure the Armed Services Committee...
Right.
Right there.
Here, I think we could just go ahead and look at another piece of land.
I think so.
What better use of the land could we make?
I really don't think it's going to be a problem.
I think it's very important to do this before the end of the issue.
Oh, absolutely.
Otherwise, we're going to have to... Well, I've got some fire under, and we should have something before the show.
See, I guess that's about all I have.
Well, that's the next.
Eddie had a little flurry with the SEC, but Herb got right into that and straightened out.
It's a very strict regulation, and they were a technical violation in a couple of things, apparently.
Allegedly, we were able to clean it up.
Herb got it cleaned up.
He slipped the door back in.
No, no, he's still calling.
He's out in, in, uh, as a matter of form.
His brother is the, uh, the nominal head of it.
And, uh, well, it's very hard, you know, to, um, listen to him.
How do you, did that sound about as clean as it could get?
Yeah, it was in the mouth of the mill.
It was the, uh,
How about this Los Angeles Times proposal?
I'm not attached to that.
That was breaking pretty heavy about 11 a week ago, and I haven't had a chance to talk to the voters to see what...
I suggested to them that list of questions, a heavy list of questions.
that Dean's guy go out and talk to D.D.
about.
I want to quote these requests that were put to us.
To us?
To us.
By who?
By Newsday.
Oh, I know them.
Well, I mean, sure, but they indicate the direction in which this thing is going.
And it's pretty interesting, because what it is is a very thorough examination of the relationship between Bozo and Smadden.
And there's a lot of dealing there.
Now, what they're trying to do is... What is their question with regard to me, is whether I had... Oh, yeah.
Yeah, a lot of stuff about whether you had silent interests in some of Rebozo's deals, and did you ever intervene with the SBA?
What did you pay for your Fishers Island stock?
And did you know that Smathers owned a house on Bay Lane?
And did you know who were the beneficial owners of another house on Bay Lane?
A lot of, a lot of stuff of this kind.
And those, I guess, that's one question.
I don't really know.
How do you, how do you like that?
Well, I didn't stonewall it here.
Just absolutely.
You have to figure it out.
Let me tell you, there's no problem.
I know this.
I have absolutely no ignorance of any of these.
I know it.
I know it.
I bought the Fisher's Islands about a year ago.
So there's not anybody else that sold them and hasn't lost them.
Well, we're a bozos.
It's not that they're running into those back in the years.
And before you ever knew it.
You know the real life of the Fisher's Islands is not how they were before.
It might not have been shared.
Sure.
Well, I thought it was important that we know what the answers to these questions are.
I don't think that we ought to give any cooperation to this thing.
They stuck in there, John.
he has an impeccable reputation and which i think matters i don't know what they're accurate on well if they say the piece
did something with the government.
He's in all these deals.
Fisher's Island is part of it.
He owned the house, Hypochlor's house.
And the Coco Globo, all those things.
That's all.
Did they ask about Coco Globo?
Yes.
But that's all in there.
I'd like to, suppose though they come out and say that I had a mission on this.
I don't think you have a cause of action.
Well, maybe you do, but I'm thinking it's just an assertion, a fact, where you've proved malice.
I guess you do.
Well, you know, that Sullivan case.
Yeah, let's see, the Sullivan case just about takes a libel action totally away from the public official.
Yes, it does.
And even when you've proved malice, you're going to not feel a struggle.
But if all else matters, you're no longer in public life.
Or be.
But, uh, why?
We're really trying, aren't we?
I don't want to lie in the Senate, but, uh, investigation.
What do you think they're doing?
They're all in a scandal.
And, uh, I would guess it would start with the lawyers and say, but I don't know.
No, I think it's from the government.
Yes, that's a good hunch.
That's a good hunch.
I forgot he was there.
I think this is Gallup in Los Angeles.
Yeah, they own it now.
They're aware of the whole thing and they support it too.
It's some guy named Greenstein, Greenberg, or something.
They're managing editor that's running it.
But, uh...
They have runs extroversional on them.
Yeah.
and we've heard we've we've tried to do a little what that baby was saying a couple months ago that they struck out they came back again well we sent a guy out to try and find out what they knew and he came back and said that it appears they didn't have enough to go and i think that was the basis for bb's saying that we have this little undercover guy and
We sent him back down the track.
I'm not sure it's matters.
What matters is what it counts.
You know, he was in the basement.
That's one of the reasons he got out of the home.
He was scared to death.
I see.
On this one, there was nothing.
There were young fish around the home.
I had no concern about that.
That's a place where there were so damn many people in it.
I think if this thing comes out, then we ought to come right back.
and lay out what it has cost you in dollars and cents to be President of the United States.
You're not giving up $150,000 in the law firm.
Your law firm sell-out, your sacrifice sale of your Fisher's Island, all the things that you've given up, and make a story out of that.
Cost a great deal.
Sure.
You better give up that for the law firm.
Yeah.
Well, you lost the money on your apartment, I'm sure, when you sold that in New York.
I'm sure.
You sold the apartment for so much, and it's worth now so much.
I think we can, particularly the law firm, that's a hell of a thing.
And we deserve that.
It's never been said.
We deserve that.
Well, we've got it very good.
Let's get that record together.
Now, what have we got?
Well, I've got a little file on this.
And we, and also I, I have done, I think I've done it.
That's right.
We've done some research to get that, that whole San Clemente thing.
Well, there's a lot of those around.
There's that.
There is?
Yeah.
What do they want?
We'll get the progress in a week now.
Yeah.
There's been people out investigating the title.
And Herb's got that title so, so done that nobody can find out.
Yeah.
who was just driving the crate who owns it all right it's in the title of it's in the name of title terms and trust me and of course ronco siciliano's president of ti and they can't get up they can't get anybody at ti to talk to all right we can't find out who the beneficial owner is
When you acquire the property, I have... Who is the beneficiary?
Oh, you are.
You are.
Oh, yes.
Behind that.
Sure.
Yes.
As I understand it, I own just four and a half acres.
You own four and a half acres?
Yes.
All right.
Four hundred feet of beach.
All right.
All right.
And then you have these two partners in the balance.
They are partners of mine.
Right.
Yeah, you still have a first option.
All the rest of them probably have an option.
They have a partnership position, too.
They can't sell you out.
But I have plenty of money.
No, but you see, you've got, in effect, your beginning equity.
Which is?
Well, it isn't anything, but we valued it in something, and you're a participant.
You're in that.
With that, they put up the money, you had the properties, and so you had the... What do I answer, like a buddy says, to the world?
You say that you own outright the house and the immediate grounds, the beach in front of it.
The balance of it is being held in trust until it's determined.
That's what I said.
at the time that it was acquired, and I talked to the press.
And that was because the Foundation hadn't decided where to locate, and I think it's changed.
So you're still saying that?
Yeah.
And it can still be used for compensation.
It can be used for anything.
That's a red herring.
What did they say about the golf thing?
Well, of course, that's on the record.
And we've said, well, these nice golf people in Orange County, in our publicized Orange County as the golf capital of the world, wanted to do this.
And it's on the property adjoining the president's property.
And so it's...
a great thing for the president to have there.
And it's the kind of a use that adds to the landscaping that doesn't determine the future use of the ground.
up there at the hill and say you want to retain that rock.
Are you going to hold it for investment or are you going to hold it for protection?
Or do you not even say it and hold that for compensation?
Anything to do with that?
Yeah.
Who would you like?
Who?
The water services.
Oh, they do?
From here.
Both from here and the L.A. here.
Oh.
Well, they probably wouldn't quit.
I imagine.
Other ones we haven't had a specific review of.
John Dean?
Dean.
He says, well, we don't have anything to add to what was said at the time of the acquisition.
Four and a half, yeah.
We gave him some numbers at that time, valued at $360,000.
And...
Then they say, well, who's paying interest on the contract and all that kind of stuff.
And who is the right person to do it?
No, that's where the median box comes in.
They're paying the interest on the carrying of the contract.
You pay some interest.
On your chair, on your bed, or whatever it is.
Well, it's the only, I guess, clean way to do it, isn't it?
They're so clean.
Me and Bob are so clean, you see.
But even when that's disclosed, there's not a problem.
Because neither one of their friends of mine, they wanted to see that nobody would buy a property next to mine.
That's right.
We have good partners, right?
Is that what you're saying?
That's right.
Okay.
I'll let you just keep that up there.
You could throw out the idea that sometimes it might be useful.
You see, you've got a little struggle in there.
The Johnson residence was sort of made into a monument.
Across the road are five.
The Eisenhardt residence is going to be different.
It already has been.
It has been, yeah.
And you can find out through this.
Well, at some point, when we can get this other thing put together, and we go to a day there,
We're going to have to then drop the other shoe and say what the plans are for the balance of this property.
I would say then that it is important to the protection of your privacy during the time that you're present.
And that Aflanoff and Rebozo have come forward and made it financially possible to hold that land in an undeveloped condition during that period of time.
And that no future decision
with regard to its use, will be made until after you leave the office.
Like that.
And if they say, well, would it be used for foundation?
Well, maybe it would.
Well, would it be developed for houses?
Well, maybe it would.
But that's a decision.
It isn't going to be made until after the president.
Well, I've still got her in the ballgame with Elkins.
on the balance of that property.
And Elmore wants a life tenancy, which works out pretty nicely.
So Herb is going to see if over the period of this winter he can get Elmore to sit down and talk to him about giving your partnership an option subject to a life tenancy.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, probably would.
Yeah, that's at the Helena Hotel site or something.
Correct.
You could probably go to the city of San Clemente and get a zone so they could have it.
Yeah.
I don't think it does in the situation that you have.
That probably still will.
The rest of what the golf course part, I wouldn't want something stuck out.
Oh, there.
Oh, no.
I think we ought to retain that.
Oh, but the horse ranch, where the ring is, you know, all that stuff.
It can't affect that.
No.
But you can make a terrific amount of money on that land.
You own it.
Absolutely.
Oh, yeah.
Medical for money is something like that.
Well, that's just a natural.
It's a clean investment.
It's going to appreciate value enormously.
Well, it isn't the government.
Well, it is.
Are we doing something here like Johnson-Claiborne on land next to government bases and that sort of thing?
It's legitimate for you to protect your home by controlling the development around it.
And I have Brett, who wrote the book, like I said.
It's certainly a lot cleaner than Eisenhower's deal, where his friends bought it and gave it to him.
Is that what they did?
Well, sure, they bought this farm for him.
Stockton.
I know they gave it to him.
The panel.
They bought the farm.
This is, I put it up on my own card, and I gave it to him.
That's a good tax deal for that.
It's a shelter, maybe they can deduct the interest.
It passes through so they don't lose anything.
So it deems this situation the same as it has before.
We make this deal on penalties.
We very carefully structure the announcement.
Because basically the feeling, the impression now is, in other words, that this tentatively might be used as a foundation.
And although they're more and more getting away from that because they know that Irvine and Whittier are under consideration because they've talked to some of the trustees.
So they're beginning to recognize the fact that maybe this won't mean
I keep, between now and then, being convinced that this is one of the options.
This is either possibly a foundation science term.
We know that that is one possibility.
Or we're pushing the foundation as a matter of fact.
We're just keeping very close to the moment.
We don't have answers.
I don't mind if John Johnson never answered anything.
No.
No, I don't.
I don't know if he ever answered anything.
They never ask anything.
I would just keep it very, very, very clear.
You know, they may get in that four of them.
They really feel it.
I mean, they may feel it for both of them.
and they know, but I think what really is more, they're more after Smatter.
Because they know Smatter is in the making.
They know Smatter is capable of this kind of thing.
That's really the truth.
Well, he's a lobbyist, and he's a greedy man.
He's a large, and frankly, a little loose.
His wife is divorcing him, or his brother, I don't know which of the two it is.
It's his wife.
It's his wife.
But nevertheless, the point about that is that
proposal was really clean, and he had been pretty careful with that.
And they go back, and I think they've had a hell of a time planning it.
Oh, they have.
There's no question about it.
And the Fisher Island, before that, the Fisher Island, I'd like to share it with you.
All right.
Thank you.
That's going to look pretty good.
I think it's probably a going-apart challenge about the rescue program for .
I will have made money.
You made money, but you made money out of circumstances before you went into the office.
Christ, yes, I bought the property over a tree many years.
But you see, there's all this tension now about the program of dredging and building bridges and all this kind of stuff that adds to the value of the property.
But they know I have no interest in it.
Or maybe they think, do they ask whether I have an interest in it?
No.
They know there's no questions.
We're saying the fact that you're saying it.
So they know.
And we were very explicit about that.
And what the hell were they trying to get at?
They were trying to get at the question of some early dealings in the stock of that corporation.
And somebody, as a trustee, bought stock very cheap.
And they're asking whether you were a beneficiary of the trust.
In other words, we would still retain any interest in the stock.
See, somebody back early in the history of that corporation appointed one of the attorneys as his trustee.
And the attorney bought a lot of stock in two beds or something.
Really?
And still holds it.
They are asking whether you have an interest in that trust.
Why don't you say no?
Well, see, if we want to start answering questions.
I'd let the bastards prep something like that.
Sure.
They can't, they can't turn that in.
No, they can't do it.
Of course I haven't done it.
And they've gone to the attorney and he's kicked them out.
And they can charge you and all of that.
He'll talk to them.
Absolutely right.
Absolutely right.
Well, I don't know what he's doing.
Of course, if his wife's divorcing him, a lot of his voters will come out.
I understand that it's being worked out by the H.P.
Center for Lawyers and the case.
It's partly settled by the agreement.
I thought it was going to be a follow-up on what you suggested.
I agree that it is by agreement that it happened.
Well, on Bay Lane Park, it wasn't worth it to be in there.
Well, who's supposed to have any problem?
The government is leasing those houses.
I know that.
One of them is held by half a mile and leased to the government.
The other one is held by somebody I never heard of.
and uh one of them is leased by the secret service and the other is leased by the military yeah but the the question is do you have any beneficial interest in one of those and yeah what relation do you have to know joe schmuck who owns that house and
We've never heard of him.
We know him.
I don't know Joe's mom.
But see, that's the thing.
And so they didn't have any interest in each other.
That's what they're trying to follow that trail on.
Well, it's legitimate.
It's legitimate to trust me.
They're not going to buy anything from me.
You know what I mean?
They must be irritating to the shit out of them.
I don't like them.
They're guys in debt.
Poor guys down there.
They're rolling expensive accounts and all that.
And it pushes them.
And the Johnson experience leads him to think that they probably would find some treasure.
You know, it's pretty clear, isn't it?
Take the dock.
That's what Cowdy Parker wanted to know.
they probably right now elaborately worked out the variances and the votes of the county supervisors and all that kind of stuff.
That's definitely a valuable thing for the county to have.
It's a dock and a helicopter kind of area that you can use to get in the roads.
And it's not at the value that I thought it was going to be.
He tracks it there.
He sure does.
He has us there next to a dock.
That I suppose we haven't learned that much about.
You don't have to say, I have a private safe, I have a doctorate.
That is an easy question.
Right.
Right.
I don't know if you know what the only thing I have in the world, or at least you know, is a vacant lot on the border of the Federal Islands.
My mother-in-law started to live on it.
And that is all.
But not another goddamn thing.
That's not very much.
You know, you've got some pretty good real estate, but what do you think in terms of net worth?
Well, that's a net worth, John, that is dry and safe.
There is a net worth that isn't a hell of a lot.
We're out there.
You've been working for the government all these months, right?
And not making any profit.
We've had a few good years.
Not a problem.
I, for eight years, I earned $200,000 a year, but what the hell do I have to insure for that?
Your net is all sunk in land.
It's all sunk in land.
And the whole damn thing is worth a half a million dollars.
Right?
Well, I hope it's worth a million right now.
What's going on?
The equity.
Yeah.
I think your California property is, you've got to worry about it.
It's gone up since I bought it last year.
San Clemente Vegas generally has gone up more than average Southern California land.
And of course yours is unique.
It's an important piece of property, and of course, in this case, it's the right distance between the two cities.
There's not much of that kind of land left.
You won't lose any hope on that deal.
Oh, I know that.
I'm not going to let them know.
I feel very strongly I'm not going to let them know.
I don't know about the Sullivan case or whether we have to, you know, name them, but I hope you can talk to them.
I understand, but I don't think that maybe an ex-president can pursue their life.
I don't think a president in the United States can pursue their life.
You know what I'm saying?
I forgot that.
That's two bits, right?
I forgot that.
Two bits.
I haven't drunk.
I haven't drunk.
That's what you prove wrong.
You have to drink wine.
I think under the Sullivan case, they could get away with it.
I remember the Sullivan case.
They're common.
But, you know, the Bible says you know the Lord for another reason than me.
Yeah.
So what you do is you're blasting a lot of... Well, I'd say you've got the best poker in the world with me.
I wouldn't do it myself.
I wouldn't do that here.
It's true.
Yeah.
Well, you see, that's why they've done it.
And then what happened was, each year, the way they did it, they said, this is coming up.
They offered, in order to pay the interest on it, they offered to all the existing stockholders the right to buy an additional stockholder at the original cost of a dollar.
Then, if any one of the original stockholders did not take Hunter's option, then they allowed the others to take it up.
And so I bought more, and for those who did, I would end that contract.
Well, that's a pretty straightforward deal, I think.
Yeah, sure it is.
And I just don't think there's any problem with that.
He was in and out of a shopping center and some other deals where he had, you know, other kinds of transactions that didn't involve him.
all the time.
But I, and as I say, public figures must expect this.
It's rather true, though, that we have the power
You know, they have really tried to crucify old Lewis.
Bob Afanon.
I mean, while we've been in office here.
Bob Afanon.
And John Wayne, according to Paul Keyes, after 1964, he did one stinking commercial group.
Go on.
Well, they have made him a goddamn martyr.
I don't know.
What the hell are we doing?
I don't know.
You see, we have a new man over there.
I know the other guy didn't do anything.
Oh, you mean the IRS?
Yeah.
Why are we going after their tax returns?
I get a lot of names.
There's a lot of gold in them.
I remember in 1962, do you remember what they did to me in California?
I remember there was some station in Raleigh.
And I find that I learned how they owed me more money.
In fact, I retired from the Social Security State.
I'm curious.
I can only hope that we are, frankly, persecuting them.
We ought to persecute them in any way we can.
And on the IRS, in the future,
Are we looking into Muskie's returns?
Does he have any?
Gilbert's been in a lot of spotting deals with SEMs.
Teddy?
Who knows about the Kennedys?
Should Teddy be interested in being put around here in person?
We are.
IRS-wise, I don't know the answer.
Teddy, we are covering.
All right.
First of all,
No, it's very clean.
Very clean.
Be careful now.
He was kawaii and young.
He was standing under some guy's belt.
And we had a guy in the rear gun.
And he was just as nice as he could be the whole time.
The thing to do is just watch him, because what happens to the fellow who went back, who had that kind of cough, he's going to go up in a very cool way.
That's what I'm hoping for.
I don't think he's afraid of what he is.
This time between now and the convention time, he would be under great pressure.
He would be under pressure, but he would also be out of the limelight.
Now he was in Hawaii, pretty much incarnated.
Very little staff.
And the lighthouse flew around.
Just the good people.
and socialize and so on.
So you would expect a time like that you might catch him.
And then he went up to Hyannis.
Yeah, big time.
Six kids.
And very ordinary.
Teddy.
I mean, we were over on the part of the vision last week.
And I had never seen that sub before, that Chapel Quiddick, that Edgar Town Ferry.
That is a very short swim.
I hadn't seen it now.
I was at Eastland that night.
I don't even see why they, you know, they could go bridge across there.
Very short distance.
And it's no problem compared to Westland.
And not a bed of tides the time we were there.
So it was quite interesting how the pictures that the kids would have made and how short a distance he really was.
But we do cover him when he goes down hands.
He will never leave that town.
No, I don't think so.
Not that one.
I think we're going to have his name forever.
Remember, his wife was divorced.
Divorced.
They were all dead.
They brought one of the babies.
They were all dead.
They were all dead.
They were all dead wives.
Well, they were not.
Nobody knew he had a personal relationship.
But this thing has a geographic identity that's interesting.
And they tell me that the business on that ferry has tripled since his accident.
People going over to look at the bridge and to go walking around.
I think it's getting into the folklore.
Yeah, Timmy showed that in the column.
Oh, it's getting out into the common columns now, instead of just orgasmic state.
Can I just catch you?