Conversation 276-011

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I just walked out of your speech up in the Congress and said she's never seen the Congress respond that enthusiastically, personally, as opposed to, and I felt the same thing on the floor.

Do you feel it?

Well, they were, uh, they were, uh,

I think in fact we reacted well.

I understand that.

I'm convinced, though, that we're, that I'm going to be a problem, but I think that it's kind of the larger answer.

Running was for him, absolutely.

And I was arguing against it on the basis of commitment and time, and then running changed.

Actually, we all ended up against it, except for Peterson, I guess, who was still...

Well, against specific, announcing that on a specific day.

The advantage, in my mind, is certainty.

These guys need to spend money.

They've got to know what they're expecting.

Well, that's the President's point.

That's the overriding value.

Yeah, the overriding value.

My expectation is to announce it on, say, on the 47th.

Before the end, which here is a plenty of time.

I don't know when they know what's going on.

Well, I don't know.

I can tell you.

You figure that's a good idea, don't you?

Yes, sir.

I do.

For what purpose is this image?

There's advantages or two.

One, you somewhat destroy the facade of the consultation, but not really.

No problem.

And the other, you've locked yourself in.

You could easily handle that by saying we're continuing our consultations, and we have our timetable is to make our announcement 7.4.

We aren't thinking we're going to continue our consultations.

You've locked yourself in.

We're going to be October 1st.

Well, I'm going to order it.

We can't make the seventh of that basis.

We're using the most common, but I can do 48 hours.

Really?

Absolutely.

That's the point.

We always talk about these things.

They're going to take so long.

We want to do this.

Listen, things take as long as you give them.

And I think many times we can just sort of put off the, this is a better one to do.

It's very difficult, but you've just got to buy it and do it.

Well, number one, you apparently asked Colson to ask me to look at Gallup, and I got a poll, and I had been working with some people at Gallup to try and... Oh, yeah, yeah.

You're close to those people, aren't you?

Well, I went to school with George Gallagher.

He follows Colson Collins' parents.

Yes, so I'm doing that, and I just wanted you to know, I haven't got any progress to report particularly, but I've been at some of their directors and people I know.

You asked me to meet with Baker.

I was supposed to meet with him this morning, and he canceled, and I'll be sitting with Howard Baker.

He's my mom.

Yeah, and I know something else about him, because I know you like him personally.

It is now apparently going to stay under this institution.

Is it drink?

Yes.

Or something else?

I don't know.

It's drink is either the root of it or emotional is, but it ends up both.

She's in a hell of a shape.

Yeah, she's not in good shape.

She had an institution.

She is.

She's agreed to it.

What kind of institution?

I don't know.

I haven't asked Joyce.

I don't know.

I want to tell you personally, he got up on the stage at the Sands at midnight with his big

The state is proud, including Dellums and Hatcher and Cranston, and said exceedingly nice things about you, and said very good things about the drum club.

And it was very interesting to be doing it in that environment.

I could see him doing it in a... Did he know you were there?

Oh, yeah.

He knew I was there.

But he also knew Delos and Cranston and Thatcher and those people were there.

And he said, you know, you hear a lot of things about the president.

But number one, he's our president.

Number two, our president is a warm, decent, that kind of thing.

So that's good.

I have one personal question, and that's about Jimmy Durant.

I saw him out there, and he was confident about you.

And I've heard ever since I heard the illustration that he was an anti-us.

And he said nice things about you and a lot of other people.

Is he worth trying?

I never heard that he was anti.

I remember something came up when B.B.

got involved and tried to talk about Janine Durante at one point.

And I checked him out, and I think it was B.B.

I thought there was a high knowledge of him being pro-Orana.

Whatever he was, I thought he was always beaten.

He was all for it.

He was making the point that he'd be good for us to get because I was going to go to work on him.

I don't go to work on him, but I was thinking, you know, there are a lot of people that have been against us that want to be for us now.

It might be, and I think we should welcome those with open arms.

I think we ought to have Jimmy or Annie.

We ought to maybe have them on sometime.

He's 80.

because he became a fantastic showman.

He did a little sketch in a private apartment.

I think he was 10, I think he was 10.

He was gonna be great in that movie.

I mean, he still would, because you see, he's a small little man.

But he had 80 years of age, what a great tribute to him.

And he had an old people.

Now is the time to do that stuff, before we get into campaign and convention time, is to suck these people in.

Yeah, if we can.

Is he AVDF or would he be?

Oh, he's a Z.

Let's see if we can put him on for, I mean, we could go on that.

But in any event, get him on for a little bit.

Okay.

Illinois.

Bob talked to me.

I read your memorandum.

The whole hard truth is O.B.

is not in good shape.

But it's also true that the worst thing you or I or anyone on this building could do is to say that.

And it got out in the papers that Lee Nunn was going out because we were worried about him, we were running cold, we were thinking of jerking him.

We talked about Stratton.

Well, I don't know, but I had a meeting with Mitchell's wife.

When did that go?

This is two months ago, so I spent two months repairing all that.

And it's repaired.

It was just a couple of these damn... A little bit of powder put on somebody over here.

I don't know.

They'd be stupid.

Also, we thought it was Dolan.

And I called Dolan Dolan.

Well, it could have been.

So I could go around to your people, saying, by God, he's coming up, he's getting stronger.

Well, I noticed that, but I wondered if you believe it.

Well, no.

Do you believe it?

I know he is coming.

I know he is still in that shit.

Why is he in that shit?

Well, he's acting.

Well, he can be.

Yeah.

He's a good governor, he's honest.

Is he a good governor?

Yes, sir.

I have it up.

He is honest.

That's what you were talking about on the boat.

That's right.

He had trouble with the income tax.

He had a good session this last one on transportation.

Just two weeks ago, he had a boo that ran Ron Sandler away.

He never went out, had a nice day, and then there's the government, you know, scattering the boo around the country.

I mean, yeah, the truth is, no, he isn't going to drag us into that thing.

That happens to most all governors.

Well, if that is your governor, you should never go to a ballpark.

It's Dan Hardy for Christmas, too.

Yeah, yes, you're all right.

Well, some of you will like it, though.

You're going to have to run the risk.

Now, when you get closer to elections.

What?

Poor old Pat Brown.

Pat Brown, yeah.

I don't see any way, even if you wanted to get rid of them, that you could.

What is Percy's strategy?

strategy got locked in early, and that is to be close.

And it still is.

That helps Percy get through the priority, that helps over to get through the general.

That's where they are.

You know politicians, if you get down to October, if Percy might suffer, anybody, any politician in the country might want a little light between somebody if they look like they're dead.

Tell me this about all the, uh, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh, we've, uh,

I agree with you on the strategy of leaving with, with accepting any, any body who is in the government or the rest, just like we have in the 60s and 70s.

It's a trap.

It's a crud.

So you're going to get on with that?

No, no, sir.

I wouldn't want to do that.

Would you?

No, sir.

If, if, I wouldn't.

If you really think it's more important to ask those people that.

No, I don't mean to do it.

I don't see how you can walk away not.

Well, you ought to do it yourself.

Sure.

I mean, it'll just, after all, he's got friends.

Sure.

Well, right now, he's reciprocated.

He's been helpful to you.

He's been supportive.

And just as you have in the end, in the space of the national administration, it's worth it both ways.

In the final analysis, I think that if events move as well as we hope they will,

There's no way to change it.

It's going to be handed in.

I believe there are problems where Ogilvy just has a lack of closeness.

There isn't anything wrong with Ogilvy.

People aren't particularly against Ogilvy.

They're just not for him.

The tax credit is personal appearance and the fact that some party people have been too heavy-handed.

That's what will come around.

They have personal appearances, too.

The business community, he's a little irritated by some questions.

He gets bad with all the questions.

But he's very fat now.

I noticed when I was out there, and I didn't think anybody else was coming.

I didn't think anyone else was coming.

You know, he's a, he's a guy that's got a wonderful war record and everything.

He's got a lot of fighting in him.

It's also, that's what he's, you know, he's a part of the staff worker.

He tilts around all that weight while the corps is working.

You know, that's what he loves to do.

You know, I noticed when we were out there, we were there, as soon as we were in the car seat.

He's a hard worker.

He works at the job.

His daughter was just revealed to mow racing stock right when there was a big racing scene.

Illinois is a state, it's a steel state.

Yes, how?

Over the years, there were 352 horrible hives.

Well, for God's sakes, when Eisenhower was there, there were horrible hives.

Well, Green, all those people, Ernie Brooks, Melvin, I don't know all of them, but they were insane.

I should have handed it to them.

There was something wrong with it.

Thank you.

I was talking to John Mitchell about it, and a lot of people are saying he shouldn't reappoint Lewis, and we're trying to get good intelligence on how badly the press will go after Lewis, and it is bad.

I'll try to get old enough not to put him to sleep.

I'm also forcing around the possibility of trying to get him to run ultra.

He's honest, I know that.

Just getting an honest guy.

Also, he's downstate, he's got a big family, and he's rich.

He's a little bigger, he won't steal.

So that's my theory, and we're kind of moving along.

I think so.

We sure do.

And your question I can't answer about the suburbs.

I think you're right.

I think that Muskie is stronger than other Democratic candidates in the suburbs.

But I've checked five places for hard poll data.

And to my knowledge, there is none.

And I'm in the process of seeing it.

I'll talk to you about it.

Maybe we've got to get some pullback.

I was at it waiting a little while.

I mean, I think that I'd give that a couple of months.

Because Muskie now comes to his problems, you see.

He's out there trying to step up to something, whether he's going to have an angel or an arrest.

And he may not have quite the state power.

I'm not sure.

I'm surprised he stayed as well as he has right now.

I think he's pretty good.

So that's the reason as well.

I wanted you to know that I'm not relying on the party people.

Good.

Well, that's the thing.

I talk to them, but I don't, I mean, I've got contacts, others, they're in completely different positions.

If you were to keep your, if you would do that, you would watch other people.

Percy is awfully important to us.

I don't know how, of course, working with Percy is almost impossible, but on the other hand, it has to be.

It has to be.

And that connection, in my judgment, and I'm sure Jim mentions, that Hauser's reliable.

He's very reliable.

The question is, will he do something about it?

Could he trim on you?

And to help Percy, the answer's no.

The only worry I had about him was help, because he had an operation.

He did not screw the people in the

Uh, in the 68 game, this person, Hauser, was having a good day.

He believed what he said and was wrong.

Percy went the other way.

Oh, you mean on the, uh, on whether Percy would be for Rockefeller?

Oh, yeah.

Or, uh... Well, I remember Percy told me that it was for Rockefeller.

Yeah, but Hauser had been telling us for... Yeah.

...ECAP.

That's right.

ECAP.

You know, remember, he always would say, you know, Chuck's gonna pull it off on the endorsement.

It'll help me more if he does it later.

And next week, yeah, he's solidly with you.

There's no problem with it.

He wants you to pull off another week.

I remember, I was in, he called you out of California.

Yeah, he tried to call me.

But Hauser, he was clean on it.

I know that.

Yes, sir.

I'm sure that he did a good thing.

Well, I think what happened there was Brockmore just put you on one person.

Yeah.

What is the situation there?

How do you feel Percy has to be handled?

Have any other problems?

Try everything.

Say it.

Don't say it.

Do this.

Do that.

He's a lazy fairy.

Take him like he is.

He's there.

He's a senator.

You want his vote?

Get it.

You don't want to do it?

I don't.

You'd be pleasant about it?

I don't want to get his vote at all.

But I, but we certainly would like to have his, you know, in words.

He's got a follow-up.

Oh, and he also knows you could be helpful to him.

Well, I could be helpful to him against, well, in the same way they're older, you know, in the elections, too, then.

I would, yeah, I would add to him in an area where he could not be as strong.

He's very much where we are with the rivers.

Oh, by the time election comes by, you know, you just might have a situation where, with my board of politicians involved, we'd be considered responsible.

We might not.

We've got to play first and foremost.

He's making moves.

That's one way to get to him.

That's giving him some way he can be newsworthy.

Well, he just loves it.

The social stuff.

He called me the other day.

He wants to bring Westmoreland and give it to Allen Allen down to the White House.

Who's Westmoreland?

General Westmoreland.

I don't care who he plays with me, but, I mean,

A famous tennis guy who developed a new system.

The Van Allen system.

And Van Allen started that perception.

Well, he's about 75 years old.

He's never played in the White House tennis court.

Of course, he said it would be a great thing.

Very nice.

Get a picture of him.

Get him down there with a picture.

Absolutely.

Tell him about Van Allen in particular.

Because I know him.

I met him in New York.

You know, they're quite social.

I'll tell you, they're very sweet.

They love it.

They really do.

Well, one way we can have in person, let me tell you, we've done everything for him.

Sure.

We've had him socially, we've had him every day.

We've done things for him.

And I think the relationship's not bad.

I'm satisfied.

I think he is, too.

Yeah.

We've sent him on another trip sometime.

Oh, good.

And basically, Mitchell, of course,

No sir.

Bill wanted to stay here and be okay.

It goes through Wednesday.

I'm not going to be there.

Oh, no.

No, sir.

I've got to speak in Las Vegas and someplace else.

You're going back to Las Vegas?

Yeah, just for four hours Sunday and Monday.

And then I fly down to Puerto Rico Tuesday.

Or Monday night.

You know, either Tuesday or Thursday.

Gotcha.

Speaking of God...

It's important that we use some of it so that people can't say we haven't done it, that we aren't proud of it.

And then I have the question is how much you, and I also think the time to do it is valid, and you've got the time in the early part of the year that I've organized and you cover your debt.

So I've got four.

The University of Illinois and Tulane and Senator Bellman's got to speak with the students from all over the state of Oklahoma.

And I'm doing this all in three weeks.

Are you?

And plus the national conference of all university presidents with the presidents of the student body here in Washington.

That's a good time.

I did that last year, and I don't think it's bad.

So the four... How much do you think we're going to get?

Well, that's a couple of 3,000.

That's a big...

I think you're the one.

Presidents to presidents.

You did something with that.

Territory, last year and the year before.

Presidents to Presidents Conference.

They came in and saw you.

You did something with them the first year.

And then the second year, they came in here.

I think in 69 with them and then in 70... You mean a representative group of people?

Yeah.

That's right.

You didn't do the whole thing.

Well, why doesn't this student body, the president's student body?

The president's student body, the president of the university, one of the principal universities in college, has come together with each other.

They come, the two presidents from each school, come to Washington and meet together with the presidents and presidents and student bodies of other schools.

How does it work?

Oh, I walked in and gave a speech from the left.

As far as the parents have been, it's a good group, the university presidents and the...

It's all right.

I don't know.

It's kind of hard to find people there.

You asked how much it's useful.

I don't know.

I'm not getting any great press beyond you all, which is normal.

I do tell them.

You do tell them.

You get that.

Good.

You always do tell them.

You must always do tell them.

Don't get them.

having any support from the government in terms of any part, either getting invitations, or dancing, or speeches, writing.

So it's a time-consuming area.

You have to do all of that, which is hard.

But our court has just held, and this government came in for that.

And I'm not in normal Peter's property, a normal location for a group to write for a speaker, because you're not in the news, and you're not involved in any substance or policy.

How do we answer that?

Well, we're channeling.

We can get a lot of stuff out of the presence.

Yeah.

See, everything that you, every invitation you get

that you don't accept, which is almost all of them, goes to this scheduling guy that Olson's gotten on for processing and assigning out to somebody.

He's the reason I got this DFW speech and the Las Vegas National Association or something.

Those national associations and things like that, and the theory there is that things in Rumsfeld particularly are

strictly served, suited as served.

I told Colson at the same time, what I've done is, what we've done is to set up a data where I want you and him to go out and do that.

Take as many of those as you can that come to me, you know, but maybe we can generate some other things.

You see, you think of this, basically, you've got some other people that are just not as good at doing a speech, like, for example, Stan's maybe all right for a business group.

but he's not good on television.

Mitchell is not a good speaker.

He's a good speaker, but Mitchell is good to get out speaking because Mitchell makes news.

He goes out and says something, and it's reported.

Like he did the other day on the crime business.

But I'm just getting down to it.

I'm just thinking of our people here.

I think that the people that can blow off the apartment economy, of course, is going to start falling in.

both Don and Bob can go out and be very effective on television.

That's right.

Now, we have already mentioned, too, that on occasion, well, I mean, it's all right on occasion.

It's good.

It's better.

It's more personal.

It's hard to do if you're out of the stream.

Yeah, it's horrible.

Because this is one of the reasons I asked to be on the character committee on that college, just because it would give me a meeting.

And that's the problem.

I've been to Europe, and it seemed logical to me.

So I put in a request, and yet it's not logical from the Bill Roberts standpoint.

It's an extra line.

in the Academy Committee on Narcotics.

But from the standpoint of speaking, or what I'm doing, it's pretty humble, because you've got something to talk about.

You're involved in something.

And I think that a person's credibility is used up instantaneously if he's doing nothing but jacking.

I know.

God damn it.

It's a problem.

Where neither of you has as far as polling as I do.

There's nothing more important that either of you can do, in my opinion, than to go out and appear.

And yet, in order to go out and appear, you've got to have some damn portfolio, right?

What the hell is the portfolio?

The gun's portfolio, but they're going to have something in the portfolio.

That's what I mean.

The gun was consul to the president.

Consul to the president.

Yeah.

Apparently, you're going to make the head of the property review board, which is helpful in that respect.

That's a small minor to that standpoint.

It's not a big national news, but it is substantively helpful, just as

Well, being on that foreign economic policy thing, if I had been on that over this period of time, now, as they're setting up all these meetings in the coming period on the economic, to push that, as we talked about before, it'd be logical for me to be involved as a speaker on it.

Yeah.

It would fit.

It would make sense.

Right now, it's, you know, it's a square peg in the round hole.

On the outside, it isn't as square as it is from your own viewpoint, but...

I wonder if...

I guess words aren't good enough.

You've got to go after them.

Mainly, not the idea that you're going to get them, but the idea that you're going to get them.

And that doesn't mean you bend yourself out of shape, groveling around with kids, but it means that you see that you can't be subjected to the criticism.

You don't give them enough.

Then you lose more.

Having in mind the fact that so many of them, despite the fact that they are two of us,

And I don't think you get it with a bunch of jury-based things like a cabinet minister for youth or a special White House juror, that stuff.

I think you get it by doing things that make sense to them, talking about issues in a plausible way, like you did.

I think you get it.

Especially if you're going to do foreign policy.

Sure.

You're going to be more interested in foreign policy.

I think they'd be interested in getting jobs somewhere.

That's all I hear.

Okay.

Be useful.

This will be useful for your operation.

Andrew on the speech side.

He's not there so well.

He's not there at this moment.

He's developed now.

He's got several people there.

I mean, Cook, Andrew, Priest.

right now, you will find there are no good speech records.

Sure, I understand that.

In this speech I did the other day, I had to do the goddamn work on getting it down to the cheer line.

But on the other hand, we ought to be able to give some assistance on that, don't you think?

The problem he faces is this.

If you, from this position, go out, unless you really have the speed on the subject,

and talk about it, because you're not running anything, you're not in a position to say anything newsworthy about that thing.

Therefore, you either have to get something that is clear to be said, and that invariably infringes on someone else's jurisdiction.

You know what I'm saying?

So you're really in a hole.

A lot of television shows know that, therefore they're not interested.

And I don't want someone who's going to say something loose with you.

You know, you can.

And in fact, for the most part, unless someone gives you something, you can.

Now, I've got speeches in Miami, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, New Orleans, Dallas, Georgia, Detroit, Birmingham, Oklahoma, Washington, D.C., all the next three weeks.

I've got a lot.

I've got...

Those guys over there are just trying to make a little travel.

They're just beside themselves, finding out what kind of a group it is, what the program is.

It's really a big jump to that heavy sketch.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know, I see, I see.

It's good, really.

And the reaction, how does he do it the same way?

How the hell we can get them?

Another thing is the development of Q&A books.

I get those.

I get yours.

You get those whenever we get them.

Whenever you get them, I get them.

And they're having a tremendous recovery.

Well, the next time we get a Q&A book, if we get one next week, I don't know.

Let's get that around, and you can go in.

Don't always take the answer.

You see, Buchanan is a genius.

He's the best in the business.

But some of his answers go much further than you'll hope.

When the lead says something, and he says it crisply,

Who is, uh...

What about Laird, John?

Is there any way that he could be used?

Well, you know, we just, we put him in there as a defense, and the rest, Rick Wells in Congress, and the rest of it.

He's an expert politician, but he just doesn't seem to know how much money he's worth.

I'm told he has gotten something there.

He's been tied to some speaking engagements, to non-partisan groups, and some states privately, and I'm sure he wants to.

No, I'm not saying critically, but I'm wondering if we are giving him enough opportunities

I think he wants to, that's my point.

He has been helpful.

Mel, of course, has got to be careful.

Mel is a shrewd politician.

Sure is.

God, I remember in the 60s, we had no help at all from the Secretary of Defense.

We were traveling around the world.

Mel, what do you think we are?

Will you do some thinking about how we are?

Mel's a big gun.

He's a big gun.

Yeah, that's one of those things.

You walk just an eighth of an inch over the line, and suddenly it's a great amount of elements.

He's starting to get accused of messing.

He's got the inclination.

Just let me see this.

I don't think that one's the one.

One of the ones.

Mr. President, this is a very different situation.

First of all, you aren't treated like Twitter is.

And secondly, the Congress is Democratic, not Republican.

And I don't want to draw an analogy.

What I'm really perhaps suggesting is that I'm thinking of Mel and the campaign period.

If I was the judge, and by God, he ought to go out and put them outside.

Yes, but if you walk over that line, you lose more than you gain.

You might.

Oh, sure he does.

Because here's a reason that I raised the Laird thing.

The issue being raised by the right-wing conservatives is the issue not of China but of independence.

That issue must be answered.

We've pulled it very carefully.

And it's very clear that the American people, first, they do not realize.

They have doubts about our independence, but they still think we are the strongest nation.

are overwhelmingly, on a factor of five to one, believe the United States should stay ahead of the Soviet Union in defense.

I'd like to direct you to them.

Now, there is, I'm not so concerned about the melodies, to quiet the right-wing down is something I reassure you that perhaps is saying we're doing something that can happen.

about the facts of the campaign as he gets along.

You may remember that in the 1960 campaign, Kennedy made what proved to be a totally false issue about the missile game.

Now, this time, if that sort of thing should develop, I doubt it will, because Henry Jackson will not be nominated.

And any Democratic candidate has got to run on a dough ticket.

I mean, on dependencies.

W or E or whatever.

W or 9, you know what I mean.

It's got to be, well, more of a, well, let's take care of the ghettos rather than the bombs.

Yeah, but he's smart.

He's built for withdrawing all American troops from all over the world and taking half the money, for his sake, and putting it into a sophisticated missile, and the other half into the ghettos.

That's the deal.

That's the whole percent of money.

There you want the money.

Totally irresponsible, but it's pretty...

It's Fox-Meyer-Harris-proposal.

Young and, uh, uh, musky, uh, Mansfield-proposal.

I think Mansfield puts it down.

That was good.

He's a total...

It wouldn't be inconsistent with Mansfield.

He's a total withdrawal.

That's a matter of conviction.

You've all started cutting the fence now.

You can see the difference.

You can see where Mello could play a role, just out of his, I'm saying, out of the men in the Defense Department.

Because he ought to be inside, too, of these groups of insurgents covering your backside.

Exactly.

That's what I'm saying.

He's a clever guy, and he kind of almost...

He's a self.

We'll have some talks with him about this very soon.

You have his mind.

You know him very well, of course.

You can see what his thoughts are.

His support is party stuff.

He's an ex-Yellow Republican, more than a guy who got the win across party lines.

He's an internal guy.

He knows that conservative

He knows to kind of measure by place and operations and how to cut some guy.

One of our greatest weakness with the, our only weakness, really, with the conservative group is right.

That's right.

I don't know.

One thing they're really hung on is that we've fallen behind the Russians in our capability.

I don't know what he'll hold you up on.

In the POV, you know, the budget, that kind of thing, because that's...

I'm doing well, doing well.

We've got to put, we've got to put in front of this.

The budget is a terrible problem right now.

There's not any easy ones, but I think you know what to do is there.

Another thing I mentioned to Bob, but I think it's going to be very interesting.

I think that we ought to put Bill Rogers on our group college campus.

I think we should do this.

We should go and do this good looking thing.

Try it out.

Soon.

Or she wouldn't work.

I know the answer.

You never know what you're trying to do.

Well, in a case like that, you know, I have a feeling... Well, I'm not worried about that.

I wasn't even thinking about that.

I was thinking more of the kinds of people who are activists and would go to meetings.

in the canvases tend to be the kind of people who are smart enough to look for its power, and they're probably more interested in talking to Henry.

Uh-huh.

Uh...

I mean, they'd be sophisticated enough to know that.

Yeah.

True.

The activists in front of them.

That's true.

And, uh...

But, uh, you still... Is the Secretary of State of the United States on a conference?

Sure.

I think you would.

I think it's definitely worth trying.

I would encourage you to do it.

We used it, for example, at the Lutheran Convention.

Of course, I think it's easier.

I think we've got a program coming to the center, too, on campuses.

The center has a professor who's got to come in and wander around there.

Oh!

If you've checked out, you can sit up.

You know, we just might, I think, use him in the kind of college appearances that we're not.

Not a 10,000 congregation.

I don't know.

How would you use him?

Q&A.

Informal discussion.

Q&A.

Sure.

Which is awfully good.

An oversized seminar of 150 to 300 people.

And what good does that do?

Close circuit televised.

What it does is it defends this problem with him.

Well, we don't care about that.

We're not going after their votes.

You know, I'm looking at it, Bob, in terms of the urban theory.

In fact, I've been picking on colleges over and over.

There's going to be a great deal of political activism.

Do we care?

Do we have anything to offer?

Well, the best thing to do is a place like Princeton.

Just pick one out of a hundred and a half.

Send somebody like Kiss to do the printing.

You know, bamboozle them.

pretty well.

So he has a seminar with 150 people.

He bamboozles.

So you've got 140 people bamboozled.

I wonder if it doesn't go beyond that.

I don't know.

I don't mean in terms of their folks, but I mean in terms of the life of them.

It's a bigger call on show them Q&A.

I've dealt with some of that with your creative groups.

Up to maybe 300 people.

Even that, even that, yeah, I see it up beyond that.

That's to talk about that point for just a second.

I don't know.

I just don't know.

What do you think?

I was just playing devil's advocate.

I don't see why it is.

My feeling on the thing is that what you want to do is you want to get some administration people on campus between now and

You know what will happen?

I think in Henry's case, for example, and in Roger's case in the West, he went to a college campus, and I wouldn't have a version of G.I.D.

Why didn't they publicize it?

So he went to so-and-so, and he defended the administration for it, and also for 300 people who questioned him very, very thoroughly, and he answered questions.

That's what I think.

Roger should do the same thing.

Thank you.

Well, if it would be, then there'd be some.

Well, I think, listen, if either Henry or Rogers goes to college campus, it will damn well be published.

The press will want to follow it.

That's what I think.

They will make news.

Don't you think so?

Yes, sir.

I don't know.

Well, nobody didn't try.

I mean, he didn't say that he was going to go.

Henry just slipped in.

If you send Henry to a college campus at this time,

to go any place and it's going to be if he wants to make it, if we want to let it be yours.

I think so, Secretary of State.

The advantage, though, is that you want to remove two potential minuses.

And the obvious thing that people will say you don't care and just because you haven't been there.

We'll say that anyway.

Oh, sure.

The white middle-class parent who's got a kid doesn't like his country.

still wants a president who they feel is trying to reach the kids that they know they can't reach themselves.

They want that even more than the white with the guilt complex wants a president who tries to be right for the Negroes.

They don't want to feel dirty.

They don't want to feel the president

hates Negro, they want a feeling that someone else is taking care of, trying to do something.

You don't have to solve it.

That's right.

And you don't have to solve it, you don't have to spend a million dollars, but you have to at least give the people a feeling that you're bigger than they are.

They care about Negroes and Indians and Mexicans, Catholics, Jews, and so forth.

Even a white brother-in-law.

But nevertheless, let's come back here.

I want you to care about Jews.

Jews?

Oh, no.

We've got so many.

We've got enough for our Jewish friends, the administration.

Jews aren't here.

They're not for us.

The intellectuals.

I'm talking about just the Chicago Jews.

They're more conservative than New York.

But they're not against the president.

No, of course not.

They're Democrats.

But it's not like they're mad at him or anything.

They're just mad at him.

Yeah, well, given the Middle East situation, they can find 18 reasons to start calling him.

Coming down to the kid thing, though, Bob, I think this is the point.

I used to do college campuses, and I was vice president, so they ran out of my year.

And I always, and I all voted.

Well, most of the time didn't do it.

And they were very good.

I think it may have helped.

I don't know.

I think the vice president did, because they got, made your attention and did it.

Well, there's also no function in my view at this point in terms of looking at various things.

motive blocks that there's more of a chance to get it.

Students and youth generally and their parents that are affected by it, you're going to affect more votes in that one than you are by spending time with the Negro group, with the Jewish group, or with any of the other.

See my point?

I think older people would be more so.

You've got some potential in older people.

Older people is another very, very, very where you have a solid base already to build up.

The youth group is a group where, say, we've got 35%.

So then we get 40%.

That's a hell of a lot of people here.

And particularly, it gets to their parents, too.

I wasn't going to play it for youth members.

I agree.

High school.

Not college age.

I mean, college age, not college age.

Only 7 million kids have gone.

A couple of other people.

They all are eligible now to go to school.

We don't get everybody.

Everybody told me that was not going to sign up.

We're going to get credit with the 18-year-old.

Yes, sir.

You would have been sticking a baseball bat in their hands to flog you, but if you hadn't, I mean, it's the niggas.

That's our problem.

We were ready to go back to that thing where you had to...

property and pay taxes or you couldn't vote at least 30 slaves more slaves to vote in those early elections that's where we're going to go back to that's the black problem and the voting problem everything else

Well, thank you.

Well, thanks for your time.

No, that's good.

You've got any thoughts on any of these things, Spike?

and I certainly think we've got lots of opportunities now.

We do.

It's a good feeling.

You think it feels better?

Well, sure.

I see these congressmen, and they come up to me and say, by God, you should have had the best support the president ever had.

And I said, what did you do?

And they said, well, I made eight speeches, and by God, I told them how good he was.

And I just sat there smiling.

You know, if you were in trouble, they'd be backing away.

And they aren't backing away.

They're tucking in.

Well, we aren't...

We've still got this economic thing, as I'm sure you realize.

But now, having done it, is to continue to fight the battle.

We've got to fight the inflation.

And not to allow the people to get problems, but the other thing, we just might get a little break on that.

I think, as I look at some of the numbers, I see that y'all have a lot of steam in that boat.

Very good.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, John.

Is he coming tonight?

No, sir.

Good.

Thank God.

Well, I don't know.

That's one of my most interesting countries.

Don't go.

You can have my esteem.

Good.

I'm going to watch this, sir.

Billy urged that unless there was some very strong reason otherwise that his mother not be included.

Oh, no, I didn't want to say that.

He said she's too old and she said she'd have a heart attack if her father didn't invite her.

Right.

Great.

So it would be much better not to have her.

Then we could have the six of us.

Right.

The six of us.

Right.

I really want it anyway, but I thought I had to invite him.

I think he was sincere.

I think he really meant that she would.

I just figured she had to sit there.

We've got Henry off to Europe again tomorrow, Sunday, Sunday, I guess.

I'm telling you, this whole China thing, there's just a monumental question that's getting answered, and one of them has almost got to be faced now, in a sense, because Henry's got to lay the groundwork.

He's got to tell them what he wants to talk to them about when he gets over there in October, so that they're prepared for the discussions.

And, well, the problem with those, but particularly the problem with press, press coverage,

And you get to, we're just going through the real specifics of it.

The question of television.

We've got television.

Well, do we really want television?

That's what we've been into.

Well, here's the thing.

Out of each day, if you're in China,

When you put it all together, there's only going to be about an hour of stuff that would be good to have on television, and people are not going to want to watch much more than an hour of you in China each day anyway.

Now, that hour of stuff is not going to be a consecutive hour.

It's all going to happen at a convenient viewing time for the American public.

So, we are probably better off with film coverage out of there rather than live coverage, which would force them then to take only approval.

well, to take foot, but also to take only the, they won't be sitting on the air for three hours to cover 20 minutes worth of stuff, during which three hours you have Walter Cronkite touring the Great Wall of China and John Chancellor sitting in a Chinese bath talking about how a lot of water is.

I buy that.

In other words, from our selfish viewpoint, which is all we want to work at,

We don't give a shit about a guided tour of China.

We don't care about the American people getting to know the Chinese people better or anything else.

All we care about is Richard Nixon.

If the picture doesn't have you in it, it ain't a picture that's doing us any good.

I'm not sure we want one.

Because live coverage is going to give, in a sense, a license to steal.

Also, if you look at the logistics, it really is almost incredible that they, to get any TV out of there at all, even to transmit film on any timely basis, they have to put a transmitter in the tower.

And to put that in is going to take about 90 people that have to get into China, starting six weeks before the visit.

Not all of them six weeks before, but ultimately, that happened.

What does film require?

That's to take film, and this is to put the film on the air there and send it out so it gets to the satellite and goes out.

But we can't do that here.

I'm not so sure we can.

I don't know that we can.

Maybe the best thing you can do is...

But once you have the tower there, live coverage does take a lot more people.

But if you look at the survey right now, it's 243 people.

the television coverage out of there.

We'll get all the rest of the press, just the network television coverage.

Let's do it with a full-scale lot.

Now what I've got them doing is we're grinding that down to a bedrock minimum, what really they have to have.

And to do it on film, which the Chinese are, Henry thinks that the Chinese will not remain to permit live anyone because they won't want to run the risk of a free press running loose with the cameras.

They're not having any control.

The Soviets didn't allow it.

They did not.

They held them.

Do you remember the famous kitchen conference?

Well, that's right.

They snuck the goddamn film out.

That's right.

We took it.

They took it on the back.

They snuck it out.

Or then we didn't have the satellite so we couldn't broadcast live here anymore.

I know.

We were getting the film out.

The Soviets were totally insensitive.

That's right.

And we're going to censor everything that we agree.

I think the Chinese will insist on that.

That's what we gotta find out.

But we gotta, Henry's point is, let's decide what we want, and then put back to them, let's don't say what do you want, because then we're gonna get it their way.

We might as well try to get it our way.

And what is desirable for us?

I think what's desirable for us is a relatively small press corps.

You know what I mean?

What Ron's arguing for is 150.

I think we've got to shoot for somewhere around 50, 75, something like that, if we can.

I don't see why we can't.

If they don't count the technicians, the problem is the broadcast stuff.

Do we care about running for us or not?

Well, you care about the wires.

Well, I have the wires.

Beyond that, what the hell do we care?

You care about at least some columnist who'll do color stuff, who'll do the kind of thing that other people won't do.

I'm not so sure that we've got a lot of specials out there.

Well, I've got the press and all the rest, and I'm not sure of that part.

The other thing, of course, is minor consideration, but it's got to be laid, isn't it?

Whoever does it well, it doesn't even matter how.

You're faithful with that.

Here's an interesting case in point, totally unimportant, but it multiplies.

Teddy White.

Why the hell do you want Teddy White there?

You don't give a goddamn about the book.

His column isn't syndicated enough to make any difference, and he is not a network anymore.

But Teddy White is an old China hand, and he's a president watcher.

And he influences the press, and he influences CBS.

So you have 18 production.

I do.

Okay.

And how do you take Teddy White and not take Peter Lissigler?

Who needs Peter Lissigler?

You want a whole man.

Or Chuck Bailey.

He's an honest reporter, but why take a reporter from one newspaper?

I think that's the other side, is that there could be a substantial amount of control of both of them and what they do.

But the problem is, as soon as you get them over there, they're going to go running, you know, fan.

If they can't cover you, they're going to fan out and cover something else.

I don't think the Chinese will let them.

I don't know.

They aren't going to let reporters go out and interview the friendly people on the street because you can tell how visible love is in China and the Chinese don't want that.

It's a tough problem.

You can't, on that kind of a trip, they feel they need three crews.

In Ontario, they've got to do the coverage review, and they've got to do the interviewing of other people, and entire cities.

You have a problem with how you transmit coverage out of those cities.

You can't put it in.

It's not a means of communication to the people.

There is some television.

I'm glad you raised it.

I don't know the answer, but we'll have to see.

It's a very basic policy, and I said it may be.

Well, it may be, but it's been a terrible question, too.

It just may be that China's actually tough as hell, and so we've been on the ladder.

That's right.

And if they do, then that's that.

I think, sure, there are a lot of reels.

I think Henry Henry LeBlanc should go all out, all we can, frankly.

The more I think about it, maybe for our own interest.

I mean, we just want the story written.

When they're over there, Father, is this curious phenomenon.

When they're there, they'll be on our side.

There's something on the other side that you could argue, which is that... Yeah, add the mystery to the trip of they only allowed 50 or 30 things.

Probably as soon as you get 30 or 50, then it's over.

If they only allowed six, then you'd have the mystery thing that you wouldn't have coverage for.

With 50, you'll get as much coverage as you will with 500.

Because every newspaper will be serviced with 50 reporters there, just not that they're all reporters.

The mass syndicators, the lawyers, the people, the networks, they're all going to send Cronkite, they're going to send Chancellor, they're going to send...

They'll want to take three or four back on them.

Each of those guys is going to have a right, because they're all idiots.

Except for that one.

Someone's got to put it all together now.

234 television on broadcast and 150 live broadcasts, which is pretty amazing for us.

Just going in, that's his general survey of what you've got to add to the...

one of the things you will want to discuss is press

I don't mind taking a few of those to Russia.

That kind of crap.

But I'm not going to do it.

I got caught on a Russian trip last night with too many with militarized power in that hole.

You know, the Jewish Admiral Rickover.

And, you know, it was just a pain in the ass to have those people on.

They're a terrible problem.

And they're all celebrities.

No, sir, it's going to be Rogers.

It's going to be Kissinger.

It's going to be myself.

And that is it.

But I take a lot of energy from it.

This is the point that you shouldn't have a lot of... Of course, half the State Department will want to vote.

If they can't go, it's just going to happen.

If you keep it at that, you just take those three.

Well, each of them is going to have an assistant.

Well, hey, sure, but, you know, it's important.

You know, you have to take communications people and stuff like that, but I mean, those three as principals.

You take a shape as soon as you have anything else.

You take a labor guy, then you've got to take business.

Well, for example.

Take an astronaut, you've got to take science.

You've got to take academics.

And I close by suggesting you take a black guy.

I haven't heard them yet, but I'm sure there's somebody else.

I wouldn't, I don't think you go beyond any of it.

This is not a goodwill tour.

This is a period of something.

I mean, our European trip, we didn't take labor and all the rest.

Exactly the same road as Bob.

No nothing.

No other Catholic people.

You know, we love Manhattan, you know.

That's so son of a bitch Miller.

I'd say you ought to go to China.

I'd say you should pick a farmer, and you should pick a student to get his thinking about a new thing.

It's a good time for me to do a Q&A with that group of college presidents.

I don't know if that's what you were thinking.

That's the reason I was happy.

Thank you.

That's when the meeting of the presidents and university presidents and his student body presidents, that's when they're meeting out of the air, coming to campus.

Well, Terry, you realize what a hell of a candidate you must be.

Yeah.

Gee, try it.

Really, Bobby's a much better candidate than Pinch.

He smiles.

He's not so worried.

He's not so hamlet-like.

He's precise and positive and strong.

No, Finch just thinks much more, more, you know what he said, he looks at his parents.

Rumsfeld does his homework.

He learns.

He is a creative thinker and an innovative thinker in a sense.

Bench is innovative.

It's management and so forth.

They're different.

Both of them.

honestly capable guy at the Senate.

I told him I'm in the Senate right now.

The meeting was, we would have won for California.

We'd have two more seats.

And we would have won California, Illinois, two critical states, and so on.

It's a 9.30 line.

Yeah.

But he would have, at the beginning, he could have a meet over at the White House, or if he wanted to wait until, say, 10.30 or something, he could have gone to the Treasury.

and then have the first hour of the meeting happen and come over and show you and the captain and say, could we do that at 10.30?

I would prefer to meet them at 10.30 just to allow my time to plan.

They've got me, and it's a question of my mind.

Could we meet and tell my wife to meet me at 10.30 so that they have an hour and a good time to discuss?

I'm down on that point, but...

First, I don't think you have any problem with regard to the fact that we're announcing we're going to have a program for the followers.

We will complete our consultations and by the end of September and the 7th when we're going to announce it, so maybe a week after the consultations are completed, I think I'll know when I'm going to be on this damn thing.

The fact that I will be on the 12th.

I'm wondering if you think we ought to maybe just do a conference.

It's too much underwriting to sort of clear away on ideas.

Yeah, it really is.

I think you need to hang out of the air kind of question and answer questions before kind of logging in.

That's a pretty good test with the editors.

There's not much wandering around the country.

Not another time.

And that's where we'd go on those dad trips, and we'd go break our backs, and we'd sit there, and we'd listen to each other.

Before, that's what I'm saying.

Before, it wasn't China.

China didn't do anything to us, totally.

No, it didn't.

But not bad for the Pentagon papers.

We knew that promise down.

All of these things, we didn't pull what we did before.

We knew the accuracy of it.

They didn't pull the door.

No.

One afternoon.

No, no, that we didn't pull the door.

He might have went down the light.

He might have.

That we pulled, not the door.

No, but not, no, but we didn't.

Not me.

No, we didn't catch.

We didn't catch the one big thing.

Which was the Supreme Court decision.

The sign.

I've got a question, too.

At the meetings, the press and the gentlemen in the delegation asked me, and I said, well, of course, you know,

When you meet him at the last quarter.

We've got Henry's back.

These are two Peterson memos that he thinks you should read.

Peterson's memos?

Well, for Christ's sakes, they're not there.

Henry wants them to be an attachment.

He wants me to read them?

Yes, sir, he does.

I had the memos, and Henry brought them to me.

Oh, this is the one that... Rappled on and on and on.

Ambassador Kennedy's meeting with Bakuda.

This is just a two-fader.

Boy, it's awful goddamn hard that we were able to do the Japanese foreign thing.

I'm not sure it'd be easy at all.

But we're gonna save it.

We're gonna do it.

Let me ask you, could Rumsfeld do this Peterson job?

I don't mind it a lot.

They don't need what you need, and they don't do it.

This is Rogers, this is Moscow here, and this is Mexico.

And then you all go right down to the end of your name.

I'll give you that.

Ray, of course, just took the staff right around here.

Ray and I just assumed that this was something that I was working on.

Text me.