Conversation 277-010

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It's a nice day out.

Yeah, it is.

Ball days, huh?

Ok.

Did you get that word from Ziegler?

I sure did, and Ziegler, it's very interesting, Ron, will be free.

Oh, God, yes.

And he had had, Ron had had a call from Reston on Saturday.

He had not returned.

He had a call from Reston Monday night, in the afternoon, but he had not returned.

He had a urgent appointment request yesterday from Max Frankl.

I think I'll say this.

Good.

Available.

Simple.

And what he's saying is, the time is just, you know, we've got the cruncher on that.

He was practically in tears when I told Henry to talk to us.

I don't know whether he was in tears by bone or person.

We've got the hammer right on him now.

We're right at the crunch point.

This is the time when we've got a hand tight on him.

Because it's when they're hurting.

That's when I do it.

Then...

You know, we make our point and all that, and we keep it on.

And this one is having its effect.

It's the worst possible time to back off.

And he said, absolutely, there's no question of the rule and everything else.

But he said, you know, it's true.

He is a world unto himself.

I want to tell you, that's great, and I'm glad Ron did it.

The second thing is, though, that I gave some thought to the broader subject.

See if you don't agree with this.

I just think that in terms of a interview with a newspaper man, even our best, most loving friend, it's not in our interest between now and the election.

But that went further.

Dave Wilson on one occasion, and he said, he saw John Knoll, it is really, you know, it has this problem.

It has an enormous problem with other friends who said, why the hell can't you see us?

So,

They're not the best use of, frankly, time in the sense of television.

The thing is, of course, a brand could get something out, but why the hell does he have to see the president?

My view is that I'm going to have to have, if we know on the election, considered with more visibility in any event with the president, he'll be around where they can see him, because it's in our interest to see him.

And they'll see me enough, and you know, they can write whatever color they want, but I think that, going back to what I've always felt, is the better posture, sort of the illiterate posture, with the individual press man, the business party, everything else, you know, they should put it on what it comes, but I won't go.

I think we're on.

That opens up the A.D.

You know in the campaigns where they want to have these side-by-side interviews and so forth and so on.

I think I should be in a position where I can say that I'm not doing it with anyone.

Now, if a resident or somebody comes in and sees me, they'll immediately go over and see Muskie or whoever the hell he's trying to push, and try to put a side-by-side interviewer.

Is that fine?

Sure.

But Ron totally agrees.

I mean, even when we do break, that I should not see it.

He doesn't want me to start seeing it.

Absolutely not.

No, he doesn't want to break it.

See, I will never see it.

I will never see the Times again.

I don't think it's to our interest, my interest, to see the Times.

It may be for somebody else in the staff to do it sometime.

Ron's view is you keep the screws on the Frankel and Reston and all that all the time.

But it is, after we've had the screws on them for a while...

It is to our interest to break, not for exclusive interviews, but to answer questions.

It's fine to break it with Semple, because Semple is a guy who does, like Ed Dale, give us, like Schultz will argue, Schultz questions whether we ought to be seeing Ed Dale.

He says Ed Dale really doesn't give us as good a break as Bob Schultz, as...

Ron Semple does.

He's a boy.

I agree.

And that we ought to let Semple in once in a while.

But Ron's argument is, yes, let Semple in, but for God's sake, not now.

Because now is when we got him squealing.

Now make him squeal.

And then get some for him when we let Semple back in.

But he is knowing, as he knows from the last time, that we can do this to him.

This is what we can do to them.

And they tend to forget that.

And then you let Simple back in, but not the others.

In other words, you do it selectively.

So that he's the guy that gets them out.

It's the same as we did the L.A. times.

We screwed everybody.

Now Erwin's there, and we help Erwin.

We work with him a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit.

And he writes good stuff.

The paper screws us, but Erwin doesn't.

It's a lot better to deal with Don Erwin for covering the New York Post than to deal with the New York Post people.

Ron's planning that one out.

I think it's very sophisticated.

With Reston, I don't know how quick to handle it.

I just think it'd be, since he's made his inquiry to Kissinger, and since Kissinger has pushed it to you, there's been no inquiry to make.

Kissinger, of course, agreed with him and said he had told him to make it to you.

Well, just let it rot.

We'll do it.

The way to do it is, I think, exactly what you said.

I have a second local guy in Ron's office.

Call Reston's office after we get the inquiry, and simply say that we appreciate the inquiry so far, that the president is not giving any interviews, and you will not be able to make an exception to Mr. Reston's case.

I can't say that.

At this time, it's always a good thing.

No, I don't think you should say that, because then you give them some credit.

Then they can say that Nixon refused ever to talk to Reston, because I want that story.

They can.

What the hell?

Do you want to give an interview on this?

Yes, I decide.

I want to get one to say it was Stuart Elson.

I'm not going to do that.

If you do that, it's something different.

Let's say that was a commitment.

You made it a while back.

You talked to him sometime when this was a follow-up.

But I don't want it now.

But I mean, it's easy to get around on any of those things.

Dick.

Well, Dick.

They've got a good ally in Ron.

How he was frustrated.

Because he was so pleased with it.

He thought we were, you know, leaving.

What were we eating?

We started to bear some food out of our squeeze any time.

I don't know what I'm talking about.

What's the name?

I know.

I just started eating all over myself.

I thought I had to spend time with George.

But, I know.

It was far more important to Scottie Reston in terms of the number of people he reached.

Goats.

They're goddamn right.

On the weekend, I set the NSCV for 3 o'clock, and Connelly gets in at night on Monday, 6 o'clock, and I don't want him to have to come in.

Which is late Monday.

I will plan to have...

I think that I want you to be almost as if you can, totally rigid.

I really want to be free.

I'll tell you what, I like it.

And then on Monday, Tuesday, I didn't find the best one.

But I can say on Wednesday, Tuesday, I'm free.

I have a reason for that.

I want to be able at any time to have a sort of a snap.

Press thing, you know what I mean?

Let us depose it.

You know, let us depose somebody or somebody.

I think that's great.

I think that day, we're coming.

The other thing is that we will try to have you can keep the reading book up to date.

He said it's better to make a new one every time.

So we can make a new one once a week.

We could probably do an update for you that you would have for you every Tuesday night.

So that you could start Tuesday night and look at it Wednesday.

In terms of what you look at there and make a decision as to whether you might want to decide because of what's there that there's a good memory.

For example, if I don't have one this week, then it'll knock off a lot of questions if they do not.

Part of it is that we can do this sort of an update, having in mind the fact that we want to try to do press run without having to go through everything and try to get the sheer assimilating performance each time.

I don't think it's all that important.

I think they're perfectly adequate, and I... Well, that would give you a chance on Wednesday to use that briefing just as kind of a way to give yourself a weekly review of what's going on in the government.

Kept up with the week.

You read that Tuesday night or Wednesday morning, it might lead you to want to have a meeting with the two or three cavern officers to get some problems.

Call them at home.

Yeah, or something like that, but...

You haven't used them.

If you think you will, we've kept them.

It's actually pretty good for us, because it gives us a big block of time to use for other things.

It's a way that we can put the John Mitchell meetings and the John Connolly meetings and things like that into those.

Well, I had a show that had to come in yesterday, and it was like, we can't welcome you to the time.

Did Charles get in yesterday?

I'm not sure about that.

There are questions she can ask me, you know what I mean?

Well, he hasn't been, he's getting inside that background.

Why?

He's a guy who feels he's there inside that background.

I can just say, well, you can see, he's his personal secretary.

If you've got questions that she can't answer, she can probably answer them all.

If you've got questions, she'll get the answers for you.

She can get that if someone else can do it.

That's right.

Let's use her as the one to do it.

And I still am holding to my law, no laws, you know, I think that's just what's going to help us to look from now on.

And that was probably the White House and the presidency.

It's going to be a damn good look for us, you know, whatever that is.

I suppose I had to see him.

I got studying basically because I've seen all the others.

He's basically a friendly guy that we can see.

But if somebody starts to start a book now, we're turning any of them off.

There are others I'm sure who want to write books now.

I'm just not going to see them.

See, they're too late now.

Nobody's going to get a book done in time.

For the election, there's no point in a book being a early part of it after the election.

Right.

In fact, when the authors keep one, there's no interest in it next to the book after the election.

Because if you don't win, it'll be useless.

And if you do, it'll be useless, because then they've got to start writing new books on the next presidency.

For some reason, the first term, that's her book out by Evan Novak.

They've done the first Nixon book.

It's Nixon and the White House Station of Power.

They did Johnson first at the halfway point.

They did that as Lyndon Johnson and Exercising Power.

Or will they carry it through?

Will they carry it through China?

Yes, sir.

We'll carry it up to the state print, and I've got the bottom of it.

They've got the economic data?

Yep.

They have that style of writing where they just write things down.

And they write the details of the meals.

Evans is a complete whore.

He doesn't care whether he helps us or hurts us in the columns on his adult channel.

But in the book, he's out to hurt us.

It's absolutely clear.

It's a bad book.

He had really, he found you actually, when it's all said and done, very bad on the sand.

Which doesn't hurt you so much.

Like you.

Yeah, he talked about the state's absolute facts, and I don't know, I started to...

But you're not agreeing, though, that China... Yeah, I think we'll arrive on that.

Yeah, if you can't, it's very worried about this book.

It doesn't bother me much, because in the first place, if it's a super bestseller, 50,000 people will read it.

And so they did.

But we got, fortunately, some other of those kind of very good ones to be out pretty quick.

Drury's getting a much bigger pickup than this one.

No selection, and it's being a big excerpt in the HHS.

It's much better played.

And it's personal, and that bothers Pat.

He grinds very hard on me.

He bought the facts.

It's too early at this point to evaluate their effect.

I think it is.

I don't remember.

I haven't read it.

I've seen it.

It's a great event to watch out for.

Oh, sure.

You read this.

Look at the terrible, the last he spoke on, on Kennedy was a terrible book.

You know, if anybody's paying attention, it was a debauch.

When you read this, you know, what do you think?

You read this, you know, about the revolt of the right, and the, and the, you know, and the, you know, which, which of course he worries about.

And a lot of the children, you know, the president watchers do.

A hell of a lot of people

I don't think Duke would be overriding them in big events.

That's the point.

You don't want to see them.

You see them, but you don't want to see them.

There's a sort of a hot spot for their power.

They've been there all their three years.

Great.

I don't know why I did that.

I think the others turn out to be too bad.

I think the article they had on you and the local probably be read by more people than read this one.

Probably no question about it.

Alright.

Those ones that are read by more than 100,000.

Oh, gotcha.

I love it.

Thank you.

Det er hemmet som skjønner hva som kan hende.

Det er det som vi prøver.

Henry is really, he almost comes along as like a really horrified one.

The rest of him really is, because there is no love.

No, there can be no love.

Who felt stronger than Henry about never seeing the times again?

He was over-dependent on him.

And then following that up, he came in, and actually he was way overstated.

He played it, as I told you afterwards.

The rest of the interview was, it wasn't as bad as Henry played it.

But he was the one that was all charged up about that, and how terrible...

Absolutely.

He said, Russell's going to come around.

And I said, no, he wouldn't have the nerve to come around and ask to see me now.

He said, yes, he will if you watch.

He'll come back.

Hopefully he has the right now to talk to me and will not see it.

You are not to see him, Henry.

He told me, you know, to be sure everybody understands they're not to see him.

Don't you think you ought to tell him?

Don't you think you ought to tell him that you must not see him?

Yeah.

Or you could do that for him.

Yeah.

Or you could tell him that I raised him, and under no circumstances did you see him under any, under any, you know, dismissal.

It really is that way.

I've got a system in regard to the papers that...

Yes, and it's, we have, we're working and tied into the work we're doing with Ritzel, and the people in your estate, and all the rest of the stuff, so that we have it all meshed together in one plan, and get everything.

We do have a retrieval system going on at the moment.

The most important papers are his papers.

I don't want any possibility.

He's got a lot of people in his staff.

There is a question for the election.

That whole thing, disappearing.

You understand?

He's got a hell of a lot of notes he really shouldn't have.

I think we've got to get them in a goddamn safe right now.

They are.

Whoever who's safe is not good enough.

They're an enemy.

No.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Why don't you set up a special seat for all staff, and just get them the hell out of there.

I don't think about losing the paper that Henry's got.

The problem there is the possibility of copies, and some of those things being... Well, the copies are going to get in, and Henry is not as careful with them.

So we've been talking to everybody, and we must remember now that he talked to us before the last election.

You know, I think...

And that's what's going to happen for these players.

Because Henry Henry is so passionate for being paid attention to that he'll frankly play with all of them.

And bear that in mind.

He's all over.

He can't even govern all of them.

I don't think so.

I think what he ought to do is send them to Rochester.

I personally believe that the government shouldn't get any presidential candidates in White House.

What?

They shouldn't get White House satisfaction.

This has got to treat them correctly.

So, regarding the further things, the meetings, I really don't know what to say.

I say that, yeah.

I say that, like, I think, for example, back in the, I don't mean to be, you know, I don't mean to compromise, I don't mean to do it, but everybody sometimes says, you know, it's a great thing.

I, uh, and, uh,

The only other thing I have to say is it doesn't help to...

We have been so heavy with the big voters.

But I think now, something that is such an enormous change of pace to have something on the one side, you know what I mean?

That the one side are all about the people who do not.

Part of the seminar thought we could have another meeting of the group that met at Camp David, but without somebody, without Sembark, and without the other second-hand blind people, you know.

I think we have to have both of them, beyond that and not below that, too.

I just think it's good for all of them.

I don't have one bigger than 17.

Well, I don't think you should have 10 Sapphire, 10 Dom.

They're basically too broad, you know what I mean?

I think you should have one bigger, and of course, so that all of them kind of feel that they're, I mean, it's just a good idea that they should be set up before we have the 30th, you know.

I think that's the reason we should

But it really comes down to whether it's talking about it, not cuddling over the money.

You did talk about it.

No, I say let me talk about it.

You can't assume context.

They can build up the leadership, and they're all willing to do that.

It's a question of whether or not they can hold it in market.

It's going to be all third of the way, I think.

Well, you would be in this chair.

That's why we're moving out of here today.

Oh, there you are, Morten.

Rob.

Stan is mine.

Uh, we're picking up what the viewers are going to be looking for.

You see mine, Cal?

I see mine.

Do it.

You can fight as you drive.

I don't want to make a joke about it.

What we will do is to... That's what happened on Preston.

I had a really problem about this.

We will, except for the interviews in the office like the one I'll have tomorrow, we will have no TV and any press and other things, unless it's the news hour.

Unless we are restricted because of the time problem like we are in the social announcement for the big day hour.

I think, the more I think of it, you know, allowing the press, the TV guys, the media editors to do what they've got to do, or something they've done earlier in the day, is not to our advantage.

I think it's very much to our advantage to be on for the half hour, and just flash the lights and know when it's on.

So I think that the next time around, after we do the Q&A in Detroit, the next time around, rather than coming with the Q&A in the East Room,

Yes, it would be a good idea.

It just might be an idea.

Would you also get for me, in case it comes up, the number of appearances that I've made in how many states or cities and so forth since 1st of July?

It's a thing of quite a bit.

I guess I have concluded that what is the least productive of all the things we do is something that you have the greatest trouble turning off, and that is the small meetings with Kevin, meeting through him in the office, with, you know, through the people, you know, hands on, stirring them up, and urging them to do things.

I just have a very, I just have a very, how do you say, lower case of being accomplished.

And certainly we have been unable to get the color stuff off at this point in the Kennedy period.

When you can get something out, well, gee, the president really wowed that little group, you know.

We've tried that and failed, and I don't think we can try it again.

I can't answer down anything to them.

I'm sure that Evans and Novak are totally overlooking us.

They want to be helpful, and they don't want to help us.

I'm really worried about them, but hopefully...

Just when they knew they were doing this.

But I would be strutting.

I mean, I would do the best I could strut.

I wouldn't make up for it.

I wouldn't do it.

Except they use the little things to get their, build the veracity of their big things.

The big things, often or not, you can't challenge your guy's judgment on something, but you can challenge his factual statement.

He makes his judgment appear sound, because he surrounds it with a lot of little details.

They do a lot of, you know, as if they were sitting in the room.

They give you the impression they really know what's going on.

By doing that.

Like you're a person.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

I think, well, yeah, that isn't going to make much difference to the economy.

I think more of that is what's for us.

I don't think that's going to be easy.

I agree.

I don't think they're going to have a lot of difference either way.

That's about doing something in Florida.

Yeah.

I'm not meant to say that about history, of course.

No, no.

You are going after the Charlotte thing.

Right.

After that weekend.

That's definitely it.

And the biggest thing in Florida for many years to come may be something like opening a Disney store.

The main opening weekend is the following weekend, the 23rd, 24th, and 25th, which is Veterans Day weekend.

I don't, I'm getting a whole rundown on that opening fest, but I don't think you want to go to that, because there will be a lot of fair stuff going on.

But I was wondering about maybe working on something where you took a preview visit, I think, before the...

On your way back up, after that weekend, for instance, that you did on Monday or something, you could go buy your stuff in Orlando and do something there on the way up.

It shows some interest.

That thing is going to be more to Florida, as far as its economy and the state, and the publicity it will be getting in the following weeks down there, especially being normal.

I probably shouldn't go there.

I don't.

I think so.

But I don't know.

On the other hand, if they could have a preview, but you've got to have people around to make the preview worthwhile.

I have some checking in my house.

I'm doing some checking, trying to see what their plans are and how we tie into it.

It's a possibility.

It's going to create more of a stir than anything else.

It's a possibility for people going down and doing something.

After all, Disneyland, the hell with people laughing about it.

Virtually every foreigner we talk to is looking at what he wants to see on tour of Disneyland.

In every area.

When they get to the southern east, they brought up Go to Southern California, and now the reason why is the eastern coast, and there's a lot of art because it's there.

They made local names before they were made.

That's the way I was able to look at it.

I was able to think of something.

That's good.

That's very good.

I was able to think of something.

I was able to think of something serious.

I was able to think of something new.

You know, it's like, it's like in the campaign, you remember?

I'm going to say we were, I don't know, right?

Well, it's, we're not saying anything.

We can't allow, we can't allow attacks to get us through.

We have our problems.

I just, we've got a few big things coming up.

The only reason for you to make any of this would be not to let it become...

They obviously rushed to get it out first in order to try to do that.

Basically, they're very anti-group, and there are two of them, I guess, with a couple of snakes, and have been for years.

I get somebody trying to come up with a problem at that moment.

Oh, well.

I'm not even sure I go over and build it up.

I pay that much attention to it.

I've got to build it up better.

It's a medium of this kind.

The medium of it doesn't matter.

Oh, yeah.

They'll write it like hell.

Yeah.

Like John Chamberlain picked up that line.

Well, it's a different kind of thing.

No, it's statistical verification of what he's been sending.

She hasn't put me looking over.

Do it for me.

Hey, she looks like something.

Well, hey, you know what I mean?

Good finding here.

Well, she's always been watching.

How do you take that book?

I don't know.

I can't answer it sometimes.

The pairing, for example, with just that program, I'm kind of saying, you know, must reach the people, how it changes people, and shit.

And, again, that's the kind of program that won't show anything at all, but I think it makes a difference, you know, in the overall, you know, what the people want.

I show them a whole lot of things.

I think it counts.

I think, for example, moving around the country and all, despite the fact that sometimes it's so dry.

The thing that I think is not effectful, whatever, is this crap in the office.

That's what I mean.

I really think that leadership is for the brain.

A group of leaders saying, Charlie, my response to that should.

What do you think?

I don't know.

You've got to do some of it.

Oh, some.

I don't.

I agree that it is certainly not the most productive stuff.

Some, I couldn't agree more.

And the facade of doing some of it in some things, sometimes.

I think my little play, I don't know if you can show it, but I was really down so far.

I don't see that they just made a turn.

It's something I think we were afraid of, but...

So we get the media look at it and start making a start

That book comes out demanding somebody maintain the same log and publish it every week.

It's just all kinds of stuff.

Oh, I love the fact that...

I'm sorry, I'm like, he didn't know what he was writing for, but... Maybe backfired on... Not the log.

No, but it's a...

I'm sure for him right now, he's sitting up there in his office today, it's a hell of a thing to figure out how to deal with.

It is, but in the long run, in the long run, it's a very hard decision.

It's important.

He made the right decision.

In fact, when I killed eight hostages, the point is it saved 20 hostages, whatever it was.

That's right.

And that's what I wanted to use as somebody's argument.

And then Rockefeller moved.

And so others were killed in the process of getting them out.

Now look at the hell.

He looked pretty good in my opinion.

Pretty well.

Well, that's something one of the cops was pointing out.

It's still like a, they've got a four to one kill ratio, which isn't very good.

It's going to give convicts and other prisons second thought.

You know, the satisfaction of killing eight guards is not adequate to the...

But I imagine Robert, you know, he is...

I talk awfully boldly and so forth, but I remember in Cambodia, a Chinese chef, he shook, but I can call him the oldest one now.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure he's one of the nice reasons for calling.

I thought I was going to find a lot of other concerns.

Quite a few.

It's amazing how many he did.

Severide and Reisner both stayed with him last night.

Did they?

Even after they had this thing?

I mean, what part did they stay?

Well, there was a lot of rock.

Yeah, but they were going to other places, and he can't give in to the original rock.

The horse is ultimately going to have to be a bottom.

When it is, people get it.

Severide?

Good.

So it was too bad, right?

And I think there were several of them, but one of them basically went out of the future.

I hope he's starting to...

I don't think we've come down to this point as to how much more... We ought to be out there on this whole bigger business.

And I personally think we talk about the mix and so forth.

Going out to the country, doing something more.

A lot of the whole business, even before China and the rest of us, the president is not leading.

It is a myth created by the media.

What the hell do they want?

We're out all the time.

Needing.

Exhorting.

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, now we have... Do you agree to pretty much demolish that now?

Sure, yeah.

Or do you agree to demolish it?

Because you've done it.

And because you've done it where they would argue before didn't use the power of the office in the sense that you have now.

Not this one.

Now they're worried that you use the power of the office too much.

They don't know.

That's the other way around.

I feel like she's quite excited.

He's got a centering column this week.

He's been in Asia and Japan and Taiwan.

There were, you know.

He says, well, it's an idiotic thing.

You write some little pinyas which are interesting.

Then he says he hopes that you realize the impact of what you've done on Asia.

If it hadn't occurred to you that it might make a difference.

But, you know, the Japanese were shook by China, and we've been more shook by the economic movement.

It's kind of like Captain Campbell, you know, they're raising all the questions that we spent months thinking about here, that have just occurred to them afterwards.

Therefore, they think they're brand new questions that haven't occurred to anybody else before.

Oh, there's something else for them to do, and they want to knock it down.

For sure.

But that's the truth, they're doing it now, and it's the...

Just, I guess, feel that too many of our people were, you know, they were maybe impressed.

This may be our problem in Congress, but the House of Representatives, they're readers, they read all this crap.

One negative thing, you know, we'll write everything else.

And yet Colson Forbes sends them on the polls, you know, and all that sort of crap, and you

Those guys are worried.

They're constantly looking for what's wrong, and pointing out what ought to be done about that, instead of capitalizing on what's right.

If you want to find what's wrong, there goes something, right?

I don't know.

Obviously, it would be a feeling that you might be going with us now, and you have a lot to do to make sure it works.

There's a busyness, you know, being in an activity.

You need to get cranky now.

Yeah.

They didn't come through, Bernstein didn't come through.

The stuff that's been for him has been so sickening for him, you know, that they're just nauseating.

Some of the positive reviews have just been revoked, and they've frankly created, they've taken all the bullshit that he puts out, and the anti-reviews have been pretty good.

And very definitely been mixed reviews.

And the building has gotten almost generally totally bad rated.

Theaters mechanically have gotten almost totally super rated here.

And they have been just damn good here.

The corridor and all that has gotten bad rated.

And it shows it's not good.

Straight up on it.

It's a nice one.

All right.

Come along, okay?

They've got all the questions.

Here we go.