Conversation 289-015

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All right, all right.

There you go.

Well, sit down, sit down.

Try to get Henry off.

He's trying to trip.

Set the future in the world.

Okay, sir.

Well, I don't know if Judge has any ideas.

That's the purpose of our talk, huh?

Sir, I talked to John Dean, and he's just finished Friday, and he's on his way to L.A.

He says that he spent

Better part of a couple of hours with right here on just philosophy on a whole, this morning, yes, a whole range of problems.

Miranda, narcotics, juries, everything on that side that you can think of to talk about.

Blessing.

Blessing, first generation, housing integration, all of this.

He said that, finally, Freddie said to him, John, you're going to have to tell me what to say when they ask me about these signs.

Oh, God.

He said, I want to be with the President.

And he said, there are a lot of these things that I just don't know anything about.

My practice has never brought me into it.

And then I just don't have any feelings.

I said, for instance, this Miranda thing.

He said, I don't know where I stand.

Well, they didn't know what the rule of Miranda was.

No, John said he discovered he didn't know the Miranda case, so they pulled it off.

But that was part of the practice.

I mean, he does practice criminal law.

That's right.

But that is easy to understand.

I didn't understand any of that criminal law, but I'm going to keep it.

I mean, all of us at Regal don't know that Miranda has something to do with my law owner.

That's my wife.

We talked a hell of a lot about it.

I backed off this and said, John, you've got to tell me what this fellow has in his gut.

Is he a conservative down in his gut?

And John said, I can't tell you what he is.

He said, frankly, I have a feeling that he's very intellectual about the things that, you know,

that he knows about, and that he's almost blank on everything else.

Sounds like a lawyer.

And I said, well, sure it is.

He's a legal machine.

And I said, well, now look, the president is really, vitally interested in the answer to this question.

Is this all a conservative?

And I said, you've got to understand the importance of your answer to the question.

He said, I understand completely the importance of the answer to the question.

John Dean says this.

Dean says this.

He says, you're going to have to tell the president from me that I cannot assure him that Herschel Friday is a conservative.

Let me ask you another thing.

Were you able to check his social networks?

No, I haven't had time to do that.

Whether his wife likes the social networks.

You see, John,

One thing is, you can tell a hell of a lot about people if you know them.

What influence is what way their lives form.

My wife and yours, for the right, we are.

But he's got a social life.

She could come here to that goddamn church now and set me.

Well, I don't care what she looks like.

I just wonder what she's, is she social like?

Well, I would say that's... That he's conservative?

Yes, he's conservative.

Let me point out that also their closest friend, or a fellow Lewis friend, who was the head of our school committee then.

Oh, yeah.

So it's very fine.

I'm doing very, very quiet.

Now, I want to point out, though, that Bill Rehnquist got just the opposite.

He called him Mr. John Newsom.

And let me point out, also, that I've talked to John McCulloch at great lengths.

Harry Morton, if I'm not mistaken.

He is probably the most enlightened speaker that McCulloch has ever known.

And he thought that he would be just fine in court.

John McCollum, because there's more feeling that's been expressed to me and other people in this administration from the point of view of the court than anybody out there.

He's always embraced the problem of the conservative.

What's wrong with that?

Well, actually, this is not a problem.

as long as he's a conservative.

All right.

Well, I have to tell you one thing.

Sure.

You see, he went back on it.

He gave me a report this morning.

And I went back on it, and it was rather specific.

I also asked him to ask Frank if, when he had been in Washington, he had answered these questions for him.

And particularly on the, particularly on the issue of the attitude of the criminal side.

And apparently, according to what writing goes, John, nobody got into this.

Well, no one was dealt with this until the point where he came in and turned himself in.

Writing and I, of course, talked for some period of time.

That's what his description was, that he had the same philosophy that Gordon Burke and Patton had.

And he said to Patton, well, he didn't have any capable of like that, to say, you know, I'm just, well, I talked about the specifics of the dinner church, the housing itself.

The general philosophy of the criminal, I think, in the new way that it ever is, how they're weighted, I think the rest of the theory is that it's smoother and more secure.

I think if you all had a little time, if you all had some time for reservations, that might be good.

We ought to get back up here and let somebody else come up here.

Determination work is good.

It's good to check them out, though, but I've got to ask you what Potter Stewart's done.

There's one other facet, I think, Mr. President, which Potter's been told by the social center.

I think that this is a more important facet of this.

What happens to an individual when they're exposed to the intellect of a Douglas?

And going out every day and being lionized by Kay Graham and the rest.

John gets awfully, awfully struck there with strong medicine.

So that's why I get a better gut reaction about his association with his clients, where he was brought up, where he went to school, who he associates with.

And I do, you know,

I'm wondering if we might or might not know.

Let me ask you, did you raise with John my thoughts to the way up?

No.

Why not take it out on yourself?

Somebody totally...

They were damn sure on the terms of philosophy.

Totally.

I just want to throw up.

Totally convinced.

to do what we believe is the way to do it.

And also, it has its connections with the committee.

Well, you've got to, I just, that's what I'm thinking.

The way that Kennedy did it, it was a plan.

Why don't you pick a young couple to be a client?

He would be.

I think you're right.

That's my question.

You would want him as a judge.

Who are you voting on?

We will stay on that court for two or three years.

Now that might be true.

Well, you see what I'm trying.

I'm so concerned that I would take this, wake up 10 years from now and say, I have my own son of a bitch.

See what I mean?

I think with Mildred Lilly, I've got no problem.

I think she is right with me.

for track records.

There's no reason, as we've talked about before, that people on the court, they've got a track record and they've tried actions and there's arguments and that's pretty hard to ship that.

We originally went to the courts for that.

How was it then that Rogers or Herb Brownell, which one did you recommend to be successful, which Frank, did you get a track record of?

He had a track record, yeah, but it wasn't very good, and that was Cardinal Horton, I think.

Good.

No, no, no, he's no good at that.

Well, he's a Catholic.

Let me ask you another thing.

How about your friend here from Horton Law School?

Mostly.

That'd be two Catholics, doesn't it?

I don't think so.

I don't know that.

I don't see any pluses on that.

How about Clark?

Clark will be hung with the Eastland and the racism.

If you want to get off the hook and make it look good, why don't you go to Lewis Powell?

No.

He's 64 years old.

No.

too old, too old, don't you think?

Don't you agree?

Mr. President, I'm very strongly that there's no reason for putting people on there that are gone the last seven, five years and then they're gone someday.

Or senile, which is worse.

That's correct.

I don't believe in these old judges and those that are carrying on.

Well, I don't want to point out any judges over 60 years of age anymore, any funding at any time.

See, if you go to Powell, you've got to go to Powell.

Doesn't have any excuse not to.

Well, we come to point two.

Go ahead.

Well, I think we'd better go with Friday.

I, John, as a matter of judgment and everything, but you know, it is a gun reaction.

You can't go in the hell a man is going to do with a gun saver.

But if he says that he wants to do what the president wants... John, why don't you go out and...

I don't think that would add anything.

Do you have confidence in Dean?

Yeah, I have confidence in Dean, except Dean has lived in the world of government law, mostly in the criminal law.

And he may expect the guy to be more professional.

And this is where he and Dad, we would be concentrating on his questions, because this is what he knows.

And of course, one of the possible prizes that we push is to get somebody to know something about business.

Well, I think, first of all, let me say that the exercise of questioning him is worthwhile, John.

You know what I mean?

He's been questioned thoroughly.

Now, when he gets up here, since he used the term, I want to do what the president does.

I want him to know what the hell the president wants.

And he's got that most of the time.

You know what I mean?

At least we say that.

I think he wants what he wants.

This is quite something to go down Arkansas, pick up the law on a little rock first, put it on the Supreme Court.

Huh?

Big deal.

Alright, Atlanta.

Atlanta, that's where the real things are.

Oh, they're terrible.

Boy, I thought you meant like I thought it was something.

No, I say, but I mean, outside of those cities of Miami, New Orleans, and Atlanta,

Little Rock is quite big as the rest of the city.

There's another factor in here that I hadn't really thought of.

I would put Edgar Hoover on the card.

Just like that.

Solve everything.

I mean, by the way, in that store, I mean, that's, uh, we've got a little shop down there.

We'll talk to him today.

We'll see what he wants.

And, uh, we'll see how we can move.

So you've got to talk to Uber.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I think, look, you can't ever be sure, but I think that having gone through the exercise, and I get him up here, and I drill a little bit, but let's decide in our own mind that that's the way we're going to go.

What do you think the bar is going to be?

Hopefully this weekend.

If it does, we then could go on this on Monday if we wanted to.

Let me put another thing in here.

Why in the hell would anybody who's got a little coach of mine voluntarily go to the president's school board and do segregation?

You know, I don't know how he took his class.

by the town side of Little Rock or Seattle.

You don't have to have strong convictions to take a case like that.

You get paid.

Well, you have to look at the way they built that firm up there.

They were short of money when Indy pulled the shape of the suit.

And if anybody had a liberal bent as far as... No, I don't...

I don't misunderstand the thought of that.

I don't misunderstand.

There's no contention here that this guy has a liberal bent at all.

The only thing John's afraid of is that he's a cipher on a lot of things.

He has no strong convictions in the conservative direction.

And his way of expressing it to me, I'm not worried about what he's going to say in the committee.

I'm worried about how he's going to be voting five years from now.

because he doesn't have a bedrock conviction in some sense.

Now that's questionable, right?

You can't be brought up in Little Rock and represent those clients and be selected by the bar and not have that... Well, the other factor that is interesting to me is that he's pretty close to burgers.

First of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of all, first of all,

taking him by the hand for the first two, three or more years in court in the University of Minnesota.

Well, let's decide on what's going on.

You just gotta, you can't be sure of anybody, believe me.

And the main thing is to just give him one hell of a whack when he's here so that he understands that he's there to represent a certain point of view.

And that's terribly important.

The good of the country requires it.

Did he say that he stood with the President?

He said he knew where the President was.

He said to John, you've got to tell me what to say.

We want him to say what is necessary to get confirmed.

We want him to say what is right for me.

My opinion is that he can be God-credited to do a very good job of judging by what he seems to be.

Your policy is a hell of a good one.

Very good.

That sounds good.

Well, if we have any language... Well, there's another problem.

We can't wait too long.

We've got a hell of a problem here.

I can see these people already went up there, actually still put this over the next turn.

I mean, the next session.

If they go to the next session, they know what's involved.

They can't do that work.

No, but they might put one of them.

I'd like to get those two names up there and make these people confirm on this thing as well.

We can structure the e-sample over here in the mail first.

And then... Really?

Play the e-mail.

I thought it was going to be a goddamnedest thing to have some female having a baby with Justin.

I know there is, but she doesn't seem to exist in front of my whole scene.

Well, I suggested... Go ahead and see me.

I know.

I suggested to the Chief Justice that this might not be the smartest thing in the world for him to be doing at this particular time.

Reminding him of what happened to the supports.

He said, I've got to see you this afternoon.

If you could meet me at Rock Creek Park.

Well, I even suggested to him, and I had to talk to him,

I hope that he is still a little afraid we might put bird on him.

Bird or else.

Or does he think we're, does he know we're getting him right?

He may know that.

I believe that he does after what you, I don't know, I haven't told him something where, uh,

Well, I have a little information that I got last night from Connelly.

A bird called Connelly.

And he said, uh, that, uh, he, uh, was very complimented by all this, and thought about it all, and so forth and so on, and actually could do it, but it would be kind of the end of the line for his wife, really, in the Senate.

He really would prefer that he not do it.

I'll forget you ever heard that, but I see what's happened here.

Burt's Democratic College shows you how to, what a devilish way to get, thank you, move this one.

They are dying, that's your grief, huh?

And I bet you they, I think, I don't know what they might have meant to you.

You must have gotten a price for that job.

I'll bet you did.

And they got you to call Connelly.

They would.

I don't know.

That's right.

Oh, by the way, when the Mike Mansfield, Ellen Bear, and Scott met today with the Bias on a position, number one, and they have directed the Bias to return that to the Justice Department to get a letter on the justice system, which they haven't.

The Bias also...

the whole of this precinct, as there were in other centers of the area, but the other top two were taken from the same park in the other part.

And they told him to go and tell the Senate that he had to follow the Senate procedure.

But the Senate is not a repository for such practices, so they told him to head to the Pentagon.

How did they get the papers?

Ellsberg delivered them.

But I mean, how did Ellsberg get them?

I mean, it wasn't a rant.

It was a lesson number one.

And we stopped that goddamn rant and all those things.

Not all of them, but almost all of them.

And we built rants.

But this is a story that we shouldn't be excited about.

Mr. Fulbright is now in control of the Senate.

He's been in the Senate for not so long, other than the committees, for kind of secret documents.

And if they are, they have to come through the normal channel.

Otherwise, the Senate will make a determination that they should be returned to the source.

If Fulbright doesn't act on this, we might start to go back to him.

John, coming back to the Chief Justice, if he comes around, first, I must not talk to him on this.

I cannot leave him.

It's not that I've made up my mind.

I'm willing to.

Second, on Friday, we'll take him.

But the way to do it is to parlay him to the ID very strongly deferred because I have so much support in the Senate.

I need to be confirmed.

But we're going to go over Friday because of his recommendation.

That's the line there.

With regard to Lily, she's not just any kind of a comfortable woman.

We're going to plant one.

She's the one that's closest to his philosophy that I can find.

Fair enough.

He's got a...

I know how he feels.

I feel exactly the same thing.

And hell, I just think how the first cabin must have been built and had a long furniture system in there.

Cuss and all the other things you could do.

When we were paying this morning, Judge Lily just maintained her bathing duty figure.

Oh, I think she has.

She covered it up real good.

There I am.

You saw her, didn't you?

I think her glasses are on.

You didn't want them on, did you?

Maybe he doesn't have a good figure.

I guess it doesn't matter.

She doesn't wear stealth clothes.

I don't know.

She looks like most women who study law.

I don't know.

Well, it's work, it's good exercise, and now when he comes in, I think you ought to... Well, could we shoot for a day?

Should we shoot maybe for Tuesday?

That gives you more time.

I probably would hope to do it for a Tuesday-Wednesday play.

I have a question.

Do it on this Saturday.

we could do it well anyway in terms of what we would like now as far as how this is done

I think I have to see each before I go out.

I haven't seen either.

I want each to come in to see.

Don't you agree with that, John?

I'd better do it this time.

But like I say, I've at least met him.

And so, Ryan Griffiths is from Perry.

So, I think he's a great background.

But I would like to do it, if you could, if you could bring him in now.

Today we announced that he'd be brought in.

They don't discuss it.

I intend to make the announcement.

so as to capture the blood show at the lake.

I would have made it 3 in the afternoon or 3.30 rather than in the morning so they could come in in the morning and make the announcement in the afternoon and catch it on the evening TV.

You're still going to go on separate days?

Yeah, yeah.

But I'm going to say when I make the first one, I will make the other announcement the next day.

So they'll know over time.

Or I think I will say that.

Or I'll say in the very, this week, later this week, I'll say probably rather than the other one.

My present plan is to do it with the, probably one of those office rules.

I really think that I've got to figure out how to make a sale on each one.

So if you both agree on this one, I owe you.

As I did with Berger, present his connection as well as I can.

It's a lie by itself.

Well, I think so, too.

I go out every Friday and practice law on it and all the rest of it.

His wife is a member of the Little Rock Target Club.

I know.

Target Children, right?

Yeah.

What's that?

Target Children is his picture.

Do they have that in Target Children?

No, not really.

That's Benny's picture.

That's nice.

That's good.

That's his rock and roll picture.

Whitford, yeah.

Whitford doesn't like him.

I said, oh, I know him well.

The Republicans are in Arden.

I said, well, the Republicans are in Arden.

When I was brought to Arden, he doesn't like me because he wrote in the school board.

Well, that's an advantage.

Well, Mr. President, we still have to have, we have to have political credibility in the South in connection with your first one, to track you back up to the bottom.

Well, if I represented one guy to represent the school board, I think that is advantageous, but I mean, they still think that he's, even though you may not have believed him, it's advantageous that he did it.

Now, what, John, did Ms. Rockefeller and Ms. Bernhardt, what else did Mr. Rockefeller do then?

But you're not going to do a black boat.

No, no, no.

Let me tell you, that doesn't concern me.

That wind rocket motor is a drum slob.

And he's not going to do anything.

We're going to point him and let him squeal.

What can he do?

Squeal.

Well, if he squeals, he's crazy.

Yeah.

Because he'll drive all of the white folks out.

Yeah.

It'll ruin him politically.

He didn't have any sort of pretensions or anything.

Oh, yes.

He's got a political organization.

He's got a lot of government.

I think he should be told.

He should be told.

But he's damn well better laid off.

He's a distinguished partner.

Saw him in all that business.

I'll tell you this, some of the Republicans vote for all two Democrats.

Of course, I like them.

That's a defensively drawn point that we, I should make, that I shouldn't make, but I intend to make, and have made, that I hear this proves that this was not partisanship, but philosophy.

What do you think?

Don't you think that's a hell of a point?

I didn't appoint Republicans.

I appointed two Republicans, not quite two Democrats.

That's a hell of a point.

You're going to see Johnson appointed a Republican, which is

Well, he used the court for political purposes.

By God, if we aren't, we're crazy.

We're using it for philosophical purposes.

Absolutely.

All right.

As I keep saying, do you want to change the philosophy on that court?

Do you want to have a better balance on it?

When we get it 8-1-1, that will be the balance.

A better balance, right.

All right, fine.

Thanks.