Nixon & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Air strikes

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Hi Henry, how are you?

I thought that was a great name.

Well, you know, we, I think, smoked out.

You smoked out everything.

You know, I was going to, I don't, I smoked, cleared out, smoked out more.

You know, you noticed, I come into that point about the fire days driving, and it's really going on.

And no one predicted that.

Well, hell, I said, now, Mel, I said, you told us two days.

And I said, when you asked for two days more, I said, that's right.

And I said, and then, but what was really good, because I wanted Bill Rogers to do this, because he was, I assume, had reckoned staying first in the strike team, but he never mentioned it to me.

But did you notice that the admiral had said, but if I did, they'd help not hit me, and what more would you think?

You can't drop that much bombs without hitting someone.

Also, if it hadn't done any good, if there had been some indiscriminate devastation, it would have paid for it, wouldn't it?

When the French, they asked the French to protest, and the French said, let's look at the damage.

Now, if they hadn't made some damage, John, what would you say?

It's a good time for you to go a couple of minutes.

It's a good time.

Let's start with a couple of propositions.

You know, you've now made clear the point that I wanted to get completely in the way.

I didn't want egg roll in this case.

or state performance, that this offensive doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with China.

As a matter of fact, I saw in the morning the subcommittee, they started to plan it for China.

They would have had it going again.

So as you know, as I made the point, North Vietnam's offensive is about South Vietnam, it's not about China, it's not about Russia, correct?

The second thing is the period when, of course, we cannot have extensity, we cannot have operations, so the first thing we've got to do is swallow it and change China.

Now, that, in a week, doesn't make any difference.

Frankly, I wouldn't do it before I put it down.

I don't think it's necessary.

Suppose they launch an all-out attack.

I don't think they'll launch an all-out attack one of the two weeks you leave this room.

Well, if they launch an all-out attack, we can bomb everything except not the account.

Oh, yes.

Both.

My...

guess what my recommendation would be to lean over backwards to bomb the hell out of everything else.

And then when you're back from China, to let them have it.

Well, can we do a few things now?

First, order that getting off the hell over there.

We should do it.

More airplanes into the air.

And also, if you order some more A-52s out, let's just go for it.

Let's just do the habit.

Don't worry about the tire that can have it.

Get them over there.

I want enough B-52s.

That'll be a signal itself.

I want them done quite openly.

Openly, you know.

More B-52s to get you off.

And also the A1s and F4s.

A1s and F4s, whatever they are.

You know, I hear you sort of laugh.

I said, how many B-52s have we got for a hundred and a third of the style?

Shit.

Well, of course.

Right now, we're not going to have a war with Russia or China, but now we've got to win this one.

Absolutely.

The mafia, I don't know whether you know them.

I saw them.

Bruce and Kennedy.

Both.

I think it's Clifford.

Clifford and Kennedy.

At least when he says a deadline for prisoners, you can see how reasonable it is.

Same with that.

He says we offer the ceasefire.

The other side had already rejected the ceasefire.

We've got it there.

It's a ceasefire proposal they put in there.

I don't know whether we should talk back to them.

Oh, yes.

They've got to thank him for dividing the country, for not supporting the president.

After all, President Nixon was a candidate refused to attack.

Actually, I think Rogers should.

That's what I suggested this morning.

There should be a united front.

It hurts the thought that there's a chance for negotiation by letting the enemy think they can get more by waiting for them to get that.

He has got to take responsibility for

damages the cause of the negotiation by his irresponsibility.

He's putting partisanship above peace.

He is, uh...

I don't think he's going to get anywhere with this.

I know, but I want us to get somewhere on the end.

So, I mean, call it, make him out of the peace and then he becomes a partisan.

As a divider of the country, he's a divider of the Constitution.

I don't think he's going to get anywhere with this.

so totally out of it.

Yeah.

Irresponsible.

Well, I don't think, when I say, I don't believe he's going to get very far either.

Except I think Henry would have probably made the decision that, due to the fact that Lizzie McGovern is doing so well in Iowa, and the areas in the caucuses, that he has got to preempt a little of the left.

But he already hit on that.

He's been pleading forever.

Dividing the country.

He calls for Harriman.

And dividing the country.

And, you know, that Wall Street Journal editorial was the best it's appeared in one century.

It's so balanced and recent.

It points out, for Christ's sake, let's stand behind the president.

And I think, in fact, I think somebody in the Congress and then go under him and take him on.

You know, the interesting thing is that the ERG today put out a peace plan which is a slight movement to its opposite.

They said only Chu has to go, which is not the others, which is already, that's more than they've ever said.

And they said that the prisoners would be released by the day before the government closed.

That's the Chinese?

No, PRG is the police guard, police guard.

At a major point, they offered prisoners to the government.

Oh, that's you, that's you.

That's you.

I'm not glad with you, Mr. President, but the fact is that your proposal last week has put the cattle on the pitch.

It's a tourist pitch we've seen from the other side.

Oh, yeah.

They have not dared to reject it completely.

If you just might decide to pull the rug out of my room and say, I will not do that extra job.

Well, we've been prepared to do that anyway.

But I meant, if he did that, that would really put the money on their back.

I don't want to be a candidate.

I don't want the force of the difference.

Besides, that's not a matter.

At the present time, though, I must say, a lot of the things that were self-evident to me

more ready to be settled.

I think at least, but what is, what you're proposing is one of the biggest presidential contenders.

He shows so little responsibility.

He has to undercut his own president.

Yeah, that's why he has to be a candidate.

See, because he is considered to be a contender, and he's an effect of the enemy.

Wait for me, and you'll get more.

Now, Henry, that's got to be a candidate.

That's right.

I don't know the signature.

It's much better to write as well.

I don't understand.

I am trying to see if you will.

Because, God damn it, he asked for her to come here.

But they were on the bus side.

And, God damn it, let's see if you'll take them home.

And the Navy says, shit, this is a peace proposal.

Peace for it.

See?

I'll get a box report on it.

And then I'll take care of that whole box.

Yes, sir.

Oh, you told me about it.

You had a cigarette in the bottom of your piece when you were gone.

Well, uh, they, uh, you know, uh, they said, well, she goes, well, first I said, well, I had a cigarette and she said, well, I'm ashamed.

I said, well, why not?

I'm ashamed to tell you.

You know, the cigarette will be right in your lair.

You know, I had a drop of this to it.

She said, no, the lead can't do it now.

That's what we know.

It's just what it is.

It's going to be much better without this cigarette.

And they think, well, my goodness, let's wait for Muskie to prove the American people are divided again.

He ought to be really assaulted brutally, though.

I think he's going to get a hell of a lot of flak.

He probably will.

Probably going to take my other colleague and hear Muskie.

It attacks the president's peacetime.

Oh, no, the newspapers will make that, too.

The Post will have it on the front page.

The Times will have it on the front page.

The television.

The Press will have it on the front page.

I thought he was good.

I thought he came to my office and said, really, this country would be, if anyone else would have been over there.

And he's a wise old man.

He doesn't have to bother anybody at all.

Well, you know, it's pretty clear what Agnew would do.

Yeah, but Agnew really touches

He isn't very smart.

He'd lose all domestic support.

But we had to let Agnes know that he wasn't the only one who had fought with each other.

He would have fought him more than he did.

But the five-day strike, has he forgotten that?

Forgotten that we hit a lot of targets that hadn't been hit before?

At least not recently.

Right.

Absolutely.

I've been hit for four years.

Dammit, what must you do to this three days before you go to China?

But I think he's going to be a bad thing to do at all times.

I wish I never would have done that.

And then the other places beyond that are a conqueror's career.

Scott might go back down to Scotland.

I think...

Littler ought to put out very closely that you have done the ceasefire.

That Muskie doesn't see that.

Apparently, I mean, he obviously should go back and do his homework, just so he hasn't done his homework.

Is that lying?

The proposal was for a ceasefire before a settlement.

This is a ceasefire after a settlement.

And it's moreover 0.7 of their own Einfort plan, which Senator Muskie just said he doesn't understand.

trying to piss on us because we offer it over there.

I agree.

I think others have got to attack us.

This sexy attack system on UK is about dividing the country.

That's right.

Part of the trip above peace.

But that's English, isn't it?

That route is all to do with Scott.

Scott, part of the trip above peace, dividing the country.

I don't know if this will have to get to him or something.

I would like to come right in and kind of discuss this with him.

How about I have any answers for that one?

That'd be fine.

Say it another way, don't you?

How about I...

I think Rogers is the first choice.

He doesn't.

I mean, it just makes your head feel so...

I'm supposed to have five eggs and none of us.

Five eggs.

I think if it could be done by someone like Scott or something,

So the board is all right.

We've gotten forward.

You're right.

I expected the United States to smoke out.

They're dying because the Danforth has received so much hate.

You know, they really have.

They know if they don't attack it now, it's going to be so sad.

The editorial opinion is so... And then the son of a bitch has to be sick.

I noticed that he wants to come and see me.

I will not see him.

He's just, he's hopped off all about everything and so forth and so on.

We cannot allow people to just piss on something.

I think you ought to see him and dress him down.

I wish you would.

I mean, he's pissed on the China trip.

Of course he has.

Was it Bill or Jim?

I think it was Bill.

Bill Buckley, not Jim.

You said James Sutley.

Bill is just back now.

Bill is still good to take that on.

On the

I think it would be a mistake, Mr. Bessman, to attack too quickly.

Because if B-3 thrones attack, we don't need a tour.

If you attack next week, all your enemies are going to say all of this was a cover-up.

Well, if you lean over backwards a bit, you warn the Chinese while you're there.

Ask the Chinese if you do.

We have to.

But now, if you could move the carrier, you're going to move the B-52.

And the other planes, tell them to make an answer.

For Zachary made a stupid point when he said to all the President's people, Warren, we're going to do something.

Now we've got to do something.

What's the crisis going to be?

What does he mean to have 40 of us?

What does he mean to strike after Christmas?

He doesn't really comprehend what the hell is the problem.

He is a very unsettled mind, and he's in such a negative attitude.

Not everything.

He better go for it.

I don't know what the Pope told you on the 11th, saying, really, it's good for the White House President.

I told the lady, I said, congratulations.

Where he said that?

He was blaming on the fact that we had briefed.

He said, obviously, you had briefed him.

But the fact was, we had briefed him the afternoon before.

The lady had made exactly the opposite point.

Well, I'm going to have breakfast and go over and brief him.

Now, the other thing I want to talk about, I've been to the breakfast.

I want you to join me for the main meal breakfast tomorrow.

We'll do that tomorrow.

Now, on that, we'll give them a little complaining about China and knock down the idea, which I think will fall on fertile ground and jeopardize their relations with Japan and all that.

But then, I think you ought to really lay into the fact of what the hell we've offered.

Because it makes me, it has no allusion to what we have offered to see.

In other words, we have offered a phased program, that we have offered it in the alternative.

I mean, these are things that... And that we've offered withdrawals for Christmas as the Jewish faith, but... First phase, first phase of a political settlement.

But Mansfield, Mansfield said, well, a political settlement is natural as well.

All right.

But that's the subject of the negotiation.

Why should our side negotiate for the North Leap?

That's what we are in.

You wouldn't think of some.

Are you sure?

Another thing I thought we might tell him, Mr. President, is he'll keep it.

He never reads the leaks.

Well, we should tell him that we first went to the North Leap.

I'll write it down for him.

He said, not that he bleeds with everything, but that it was one that they really could come to the North Leap.

But who only put it to the North Leap?

He said, if you submit it to him, we're going to negotiate it.

But the channel shows.

I forgot that.

Yeah.

And that's not going to be achieved.

So now, Senator, there is a party that we have not revealed that we have a problem with the Russians.

That's right.

That we want to keep their channel open.

But the Russians.

And also, they have put the same proposal to the channel.

But he didn't say that he agreed to it.

We'll start out the meeting by saying, now Mike, there are two major parts of this that we cannot review.

You want to know whether we're doing anything to change the direction we are.

And then I'll say, no, I don't think he's going to come.

And then you say, no.

It tells the enemy, in effect, don't negotiate.

People get better from us.

That's the thing, Henry.

I think the other thing is that he is risking the chances of negotiation.

And then on the day when we get the business fixed out of it.

The idea that the whole government has to go and now say, well, we'll do that.

What they're seeking is that.

At any rate, Mr. President, in fact, they have rejected it and they have felt the necessity.

And what Muskie has done is unbelievable.

It is really incredible.

It's a wonderful world.

I'll tell you this, let's face it.

You realize it.

We gave it the possible position

It would also be impossible if you hadn't made that speech.

If you hadn't made that speech, it must be what it said.

And we would have been the first out of the battle.

And you would then, even if you had revealed it, you would have been talking out of history.

to make the case for the enemy that the enemy has not yet even made for itself.

Isn't that true?

Because he calls for the old truth, not himself.

I'm not sure he does.

They must talk to the other elements of their society.

For Christ's sake, we've said that.

The president has basically re-numbered and re-issued his proposals that have failed for six years.

We are trying to win at the country's table, but we have not won.

We cannot win in the battle.

We could not have no right to kill over 100,000 of them.

I can tell you today, 100,000 slaves are not going to kill.

That's a bunch of shit.

There's no right to send young Americans to Vietnam to spark any shit.

Our kind of ceasefire will force the North Vietnamese to withdraw their forces.

You know,

It's not true, is it?

No, these are all their own points.

We have been there now.

The ceasefire, we offered the ceasefire in place.

That's right.

The whole thing is an absolute offer.

But I think we ought to say this afternoon, even Zeke ought to say very kindly,

He's obviously not done his homework.

He's ceased by re-authoring October 17th, which was prior to the end of December.

He's ceased by re-authoring this time.

He's been almost the same course they put it in their own poems, write their own sort of journal.

And his other poems about the withdrawal of the North Vietnamese are equally well-read.

I think we ought to get it on the news tonight.

I agree.

Now, we have one other problem, Mr. President.

As you know, we've been wanting to nominate Walters as Deputy Director.

Both Helms and Laird will be dragging their feet and putting his name up.

We've asked Helms to recommend him to staff.

Helms wants me to do it, and then he'll support it.

But that puts us, he said, eyes are dry talking for us for that.

Now, that is a treatment.

It's done because if I put him up, if I call Stennis, then Stennis calls Helms.

Helms, for their own right, is a nice guy, but that is our guy.

It's a right-hand man.

No, I'm declaring you with a witness.

I don't have a witness.

The president wants.

But Walters has taken it directly.

If you charge him again, I don't write all the reports for you.

And I'll call the head and tell him the same thing, and I'll say, you fool, I'm going to get that done by the end of this week.

I just want to make sure.

It's not usually that you want to do this stuff.

You're goddamn right.

This is my appointment, and I make it.

You're making it, and that's every day.

The head of the agency does it, and he absolutely refused to do that.

Sure.

You know, you're afraid to have somebody in there to start up a team on the phone.

No qualifications found, sir.

He's our man.

He's always been, he's always done well.

He's been military at the trade front.

He's got a hell of a lot more qualifications than Goodman did.

And what were Goodman's qualities?

No intelligence experience at all.

And I don't think you ought to call him up.

Heaven, if you want, he wants to.

You'll regret it.

You'll have to do that.

The president's made the decision.

And this money is not applicable now.

He takes responsibility for it.

We'll back it up after you come back.

Thank God you're not there.

We'll back it up after you come back.

We need somebody over there we can call on.

President, he's been in intelligence all his bloody life.

You know what the Christ said about the Latin American?

Great word.

He was a Latin American.

Cushman was never in intelligence.

You don't feel we're going to chug it?

No.

I just want you to know I'm going to brutalize him.

But I'll do it my way, and you don't have to know how I'll do it, but I'll be very proud of that.

Just if we take that league out that I was part of.

Oh, Christ.

You know why I did it.

The prior time.

That would be a damn nightmare.

And he's been...

Yes, he's tried.

Now, certainly we can say up to this point, everybody is bored on whatever we decide to do, when, right when.

We all express our views, don't we?

Express their views, you'd say.

Who else is the most detailed, breathing, imaginable?

I think we could bleep this guy.

And of course, some would pitch it like muskies.

Yeah, right.

But, uh...

I tell you, I think in the campaign, I would just rip him from...

Particularly if we had a settlement.

Oh?

Well, if we don't, we won't.

That's right.

But in the meantime, let me say this.

We are going to have to give them another class in my view.

Absolutely.

But I do it after you've been in teaching.

Because you have been on every television screen for a week talking peace.

You have made your peace also.

God damn.

Pretty terrible, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

All right, good luck.

Thanks.

Good luck.

Thank you.

Nixon & Kissinger on Vietnam War and Air strikes

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on February 2, 1972

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