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Conversation 323-031

TapeTape 323StartFriday, March 17, 1972 at 2:45 PMEndFriday, March 17, 1972 at 3:02 PMTape start time02:21:54Tape end time02:39:28ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Ziegler, Ronald L.Recording deviceOld Executive Office Building
AI Summary

President Nixon met with Ronald Ziegler to discuss messaging strategies for the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) and the administration's stance on school busing. Nixon instructed Ziegler to emphasize his broad support for a constitutional amendment while deferring the technical wording and legislative process to Congress to avoid getting bogged down in legal debates. Regarding busing, they reviewed the political impact of the issue, concluding that public sentiment largely aligned with the President's position despite opposition from the press and political liberals.

Equal Rights AmendmentSchool busingPress strategyConstitutional amendmentElection year politics
AudioNARA Description

On March 17, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 2:45 pm to 3:02 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 323-031 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 323-31

Date: March 17, 1972
Time: 2:45 pm - 3:02 pm
Location: Executive Office Building

The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.

     Equal Rights Amendment [ERA]
          -Questions
          -The President’s support
                -Co-sponsor of legislation in 1951
                -Statement of support in 1968
          -Lawyers
          -Statement of support
                -The President’s view
                -Proposed letter to Hugh Scott
                      -House Resolution 208 [HR 208]
                      -Constitutional amendment
                           -Changes
                           -Wording
                           -Amending
                           -Congressional role
                                 -House and Senate

                                 -Support
          -Wording of the proposed amendment
     -The President’s support
          -House and Senate
          -Wording
                -Changes
          -The President’s view
          -Co-sponsor of legislation in 1951
                -1960, 1968
          -The President’s role in legislation
          -Final wording of amendment
                -House and Senate
                      -Debate
          -Statement
                -Wording
                      -HR 208
          -Lawyers

Press briefing
      -Columbia Broadcasting System [CBS]
            -Question to Edward L. Morgan
                 -Busing to achieve racial balance
            -The President’s view
      -Busing
            -The President’s view
                 -Liberals
                       -Florida primary
                             -George C. Wallace
                             -John V. Lindsay
                             -George S. McGovern
                 -American citizens support for the President’s previous speech on busing
                 -Reactionaries
                 -Liberals
                 -Press corps
                       -Experiences
                       -Change in position
                 -Moratorium
                       -Congress
                             -Michael J. Mansfield
                 -Edmund S. Muskie
                 -Hubert H. Humphrey
                 -McGovern

                       -Humphrey
                             -Blacks
                             -Liberals
                       -Washington Post
                 -Briefing team
                       -Meeting with Ziegler
                             -Ziegler’s view
                             -Press questions
                             -Tone
                             -Television
                             -Writing press
           -Afternoon briefing strategy
                 -Press reaction
                       -Changes
                       -Radio
                       -Television
                       -The President’s view
                             -Election year
           -Busing
           -International Telephone and Telegraph [ITT]
                 -Issue
                 -Coverage
                 -Awareness
                       -White House involvement
                 -Harry S. Truman
                 -Dwight D. Eisenhower
                       -Sherman Adams example
                 -Convention
                 -Strategy
                       -White House involvement
                 -Peter M. Flanigan
                       -Involvement
                       -Circumstances
                             -[First name unknown] Sullivan
                 -Press corps

Ziegler left at 3:02 pm.
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Well, there are a couple of points to be made.
You...
I know that they don't want me to...
I've got to stick with my previous position.
There are two ways to go.
One is there's a letter here in Scottish.
It says, I therefore favor the enactment of House Bill 208.
The other way is, I therefore favor the enactment of the Constitutional Amendment
which he has called, which basically says 208 versus the Constitution.
Now, saying that, the question would be, well, does he support 208?
Does he support the thing that came out of the resolutions?
What's the argument against that?
The argument against it, or any chance of changing it, doesn't matter.
Well, the argument against saying that you support the Constitution 208
is that it blocks you specifically to the working, and perhaps reduces the flexibility of amending that.
There are some amendments, apparently, that are now still being considered by the Congress on the description of that, and other types of amendments.
Which is a debate... Well, I think you should say that I support a constitutional amendment.
I want you to say I support the President's, has supported...
The Equal Rights Amendment.
He supports the Constitutional Amendment.
Of course, he defers to the House and the Senate as they do any protections of, you know, or modernizations of it.
He supports the Constitutional Amendment.
Get away with that.
Well, that's what I want to know.
We don't care.
President, well, what about the House joining?
He doesn't oppose it, but as you know, the President is not involved in the Constitution.
He does not have a constitutional role in it.
I would just say that I believe that's a good start.
Of course, I would not preempt, the President should not preempt, I do not preempt the right of the House and the Senate
has supported a constitutional amendment for people right in the room, and so forth and so on.
Of course, it really is the... Because the...
It's always the same.
Because of the wording of the amendment.
Fine.
All right, fine.
Has supported it.
The president supports the constitutional amendment.
He, of course, recognizes that the House and Senate may, after consideration,
I don't know.
The wording, it will maybe be a...
I don't know.
I don't know.
If you just want to do it, I think you just might go for the goddamn thing.
And you could say, well, as far as the changes and so forth are concerned, I've got to see it when it comes to my housing center.
What do you think?
I don't really give a god damn.
I think a lot of them don't know that because some of the pictures they do have, and it passes with respect.
I don't know.
I think this is the same thing.
He supports the Constitution of America.
Then, what if that dropped?
Yeah.
If they come back on the question, well, that's his advice.
He's the one who's in charge.
He's the judge that's in charge of America.
He has supported the Constitutional Amendment, and will continue to support it.
Now he will tell us, he will address a proposal, and we have to recognize him still before Congress, and he will accept the wording of the amendment, which reflects the best judgment of Congress after they have adhered to the mandate of the Constitution.
In other words, that does give you some option.
And of course, he supports the Constitutional Amendment.
However, the president recognizes the prerogative of the congressman to work his will to mean to...
He, of course, will...
The congressman takes his action.
He believes he probably will be...
He will support...
I can't get the congressman to check, but I can just say that he recognizes the prerogative of the congressman...
This is not indicating that it's this amendment, or not.
His point is he wants an amendment for equal rights to go through.
He supports the amendment for equal rights, recognizing the right of the Congress, the prerogative of the right of the Congress, to consider it, to make it fully, and to perfect it,
and the event where they believe that it needs prevention.
You see, they believe in prevention.
It's not going to get into that.
It's not going to get into the debate in the countries about amendments to the amendment.
It's just not going to get into that.
Just say that I'm for it.
The best thing you can do is just say I'm for it, period.
Just let it go.
See, that's where I'll start.
He says he supports it now, period.
The lawyers don't like that, but he's got his paper in the commission.
He'll report it.
Better fly, better fly.
Did they survive their briefing?
All right.
I understand.
CBS had to be walking one of the margins to tell us how many what cases of racial violence he was about to say.
Of course.
Sure.
You know, those sons of bitches, they don't think we do our homework on these things.
They do a good job.
And really, to put down those, you know, CBS made a big point last night about the fact that there's no cases in which the court is over, busting for racial violence.
That's what the hell the goddamn thing's all about.
It's not always the same.
It does what it is.
Some racial violence is involved.
They're moving blacks into white areas, or whites into black areas, western areas.
Reagan was out.
I'll tell you, this is one time.
The liberals are off the script.
I like them for it.
That's why they all underestimated Wallace, and overestimated Lindsay, and governed all over.
Absolutely.
I think so.
As far as the country is concerned, that part of the country, their attention to this issue
They would support, 90% of them would support what I said last night.
5% of the other would go further.
In other words, they would, well, some of them would go a hell of a long way.
They'd turn the clock back.
We can't do that in the Constitution.
That's what I was telling them.
It won't work.
And the others, as far as the people in the country are concerned, which are in the fashion of the liberals, and say we're promoting terrorism.
They don't like it.
Do you agree?
I mean, they don't want their kids to go to the bus, but they don't want their kids to go to the bus all the way across town.
I'd be forced to go and go to school, but they don't allow me to go to school.
Absolutely.
Including most of the members of the press corps.
I don't like that.
Because I would love to be all alone.
I'd like to sit around and think.
They can talk about it, they can stand up and make speeches, but when they get in their living room that night before the school starts that day, and they're talking about that kid, getting in that bus, going 40 miles or 40 minutes across town to the school, with a bunch of vowels, they'll back off their position real fast.
You mean going 40 miles or 40 minutes to the first school, lousy teachers, and the second school with inferior kids in the behind them, frankly, black kids.
They aren't going to do it.
It must be spoken out there.
I haven't seen it.
I don't know.
Well, he may be against it, but he gets on the wrong side of this as you would have cut it to be a drink.
Black or...
They asked, a few of them asked,
Questions about rollback and so on.
But the tone was not...
Nothing better than going on and getting our case on first and then following it.
And then going on the next day and have to write it first.
Strictly self-interested.
Always, otherwise, otherwise, you're eating news, and it could be a montage, well, some say this, some say that, and some of them, well, we don't have television.
We'll do it our way first.
That's right, first, right.
The action is breathing for now.
The new action is breathing to work on.
Well, they're working hard from our standpoint, which is a little bit of a press agreement.
Well,
They don't like change, and they say, well, it's a very hard time.
I'm dealing with it, and I take it.
It doesn't matter.
If anyone else saw it briefly, that's why I had to raise it with you.
Don't worry about it.
I'm sure they want 30, so they can write two stories.
Well, not only that.
They'd like a crack.
They want a crack for 20 seconds.
That's the point.
If they get you to Martin, and they can crack you at night, don't let them.
Of course, you know, there are good voices, guys.
It's all different for each one of them.
You take the radio guys, the television guys, they're the ones who have to be careful.
Because they need $30 to radio a spot, and $60 to television.
Who's that?
To a degree.
They don't have what they feel is a constant potential for them.
So once a day is enough.
The other change is the other change.
It's the change itself that frustrates me.
It's going to work well.
We'll see how it's going to work.
We'll get to that.
It's better from your standpoint.
But we need this election year.
Let them squeal.
I believe this is not an issue anywhere else but Russia.
It's not out there in the country.
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