Nixon, Kissinger & Haig on Vietnam War and B-52 strikes

3:14:13Where is the copy of that Canadian thing?
3:14:16As soon as they get over here, there's not much left.
3:14:25I went to find out when they'll have it.
3:15:36Ja.
3:15:36Ja.
3:15:37Ja.
3:15:39Ja.
3:15:40Ja.
3:15:41Ja.
3:15:41Ja.
3:15:42Ja.
3:16:06I know you go over to Rosa's office, and as soon as she finishes that, you bring it right back over.
3:16:23She's probably half through it now.
3:16:25You tell her that you want to bring it back, and she wants to hear it.
3:16:59They didn't say they would do anything.
3:17:05They didn't even say they supported me.
3:17:09They quit bombing.
3:17:10That's all they said.
3:17:13To be among these people was pretty bad.
3:17:15Because they had no chance to tell us what they told us.
3:17:21The interesting thing is they didn't say, you know, people like us, that's exactly what you told us when you were there.
3:17:58I think it's important that that line be done out.
3:18:07I'm not referring to your guys' house.
3:18:09We'll have an opportunity on occasion, but I'm referring to something that should be given to all of our spokesmen that have our back.
3:18:26And it was very simple.
3:18:27It was going to be repeated.
3:18:31And so forth.
3:18:32I'm not referring to David.
3:18:36I'm referring to the Congressman, the Senators, the Buckeyes.
3:18:42Well, you know, absolutely.
3:18:47Now, that must be...
3:18:48I don't know what was being done there so far.
3:18:51You can't let these guys come up with it.
3:18:53I had a bunch of fact sheets that...
3:18:56And I have a bunch of statements ready from Clifford and Paddington about the fact that he is going to get out soon, and I'll look what they have to do.
3:19:07And I'm sending, I've already sent my batch to Buckley and to send it to some other place.
3:19:14We'll do a little bit of a statement, and I think it won't be very good.
3:19:17That'll be a good plan for the first time.
3:19:19I'll give a little shot to David.
3:19:26Totally unexpected.
3:19:27Incidentally, I checked there was never been a B-52 strike at all.
3:19:30There was a B-52 strike two miles inside the north-eastern border at a pass in order to get a mountain slide into the pass here.
3:19:41But the beauty of it is that the public is still annoyed against the message that the public is confused which probably makes them think that we've done it before.
3:19:56I think it's great that they did it before.
3:19:58I just wanted to know how important, how significant the message was to him and what he said.
3:20:03It's great that he had a fight for it.
3:20:06He said it's just nothing new.
3:20:09But Madam Finn has today made another statement that is very defensive.
3:20:15She says all the American forces is to change the color of the body.
3:20:23That's the line.
3:20:56that Porter's statement would follow it, rather than be followed by the B-52 strike.
3:21:06On the other hand, certainly the way that we are, if Porter makes his statement Thursday morning, that he'll get a good ride that Thursday evening, and if then we do a B-52 strike, it will sort of get drowned out.
3:21:21See, the B-52 strike is scheduled for Thursday.
3:21:27Yes, we can schedule it any time we want it, Mr. President.
3:21:31And Thursday was another trendy day.
3:21:34And I can see really two sides of the question.
3:21:37One argument is to advance it.
3:21:39And then if there's any other further statement, we'll give up.
3:21:44The other is to get further statements out through it.
3:21:47Because undoubtedly the guys are going to feel that over North Vietnam, and we're going to give them a terrific wall anyway.
3:21:56You are a better judge of PR than I am.
3:21:58I don't want anybody to judge me.
3:21:59Brother, it's better to ask the border statement first, followed by the business decision.
3:22:04Would it be better to do it followed by the border statement?
3:22:12I don't know.
3:22:12It's better to ask the border statement first, followed by the business decision.
3:22:21Would it be better to do it followed by the border statement?
3:22:28After having interrupted one meeting, we informed them
3:22:57that we were ready to resume on April 13th to private land.
3:23:03Their response to this was a massive invasion of South Vietnam.
3:23:08It is therefore total rubbish to say that we interrupted the negotiations and that we have not been prepared to go back.
3:23:23You see, we're now making...
3:23:26I think we've reached the point...
3:23:52And I've thought about it during a very long time.
3:23:58If I want to keep the option open of going on Wednesday night, I've got to go up to Camp David, and I'm sorry.
3:24:10I do not think you should go.
3:24:12The question is, I mean, I believe it.
3:24:15That's my view.
3:24:16I agree with the conclusion of the schedule.
3:24:21Uh...
3:24:35What I'm going to do, what I'm really saying, and I'm back, Henry, in my own mind, is that we will take whatever political laws that we have to take here, and figuring that they will be temporary.
3:24:53But we're going to take them, because I convinced them on the foreign policy side, there is no way I can handle it without weakening our ferocious
3:25:05and Russia, as our political position weakens here, as demonstrations and so forth, may develop and may not, to what extent will they get encouragement from that, and
3:25:30And therefore we should be trying to stop it.
3:25:33In other words, let me put it this way.
3:25:36I am making this decision solely based on the foreign policy.
3:25:41Screw the policy.
3:25:42Looking at that, the only thing you've got to think about is, are Russia and Hanoi going to get some encouragement by the deterioration of our religion here?
3:25:51Don't assume that it won't deteriorate.
3:25:53You've got to assume that it will be more opposition, more demonstration, more editorial, et cetera.
3:25:59And that may happen.
3:26:00On the other hand, the other side of the coin, there ain't no way that I can make this damn speech without protesting too much that there's a peace.
3:26:12That's what I don't want to do.
3:26:13That's exactly right.
3:26:14So what are your views on the second point?
3:26:15My assessment is, Mr. President, that at least Moscow, and now that Moscow has at least been decayed for a good time, that they can move something that they have already done.
3:26:28At least Moscow understands the demonstrations won't be continued.
3:26:31If you've written this group of three times, you not only may understand this time, and that it has to use erosiveness to tell the demonstrators how to get there, but otherwise it's what we can do sometimes.
3:26:47I'm not so sure we can judge this.
3:26:50Much better than I, rather the speech don't have haste to protest, rather than today.
3:26:55Yeah, by laying down the government.
3:26:57By laying down the government, right now people are still confused, because, for example, the headline today at the start is, uh, enemy offensive, but both sides are slow.
3:27:07I don't think it's true.
3:27:11No, I think it's probably it's largely true.
3:27:15Well, they've got the back, we've got the people fighting in that lot.
3:27:21Now, the point is, I think that most politicians are going to be very weary of taking you on.
3:27:29If they think that the enemy might lose, and they are going to make the same.
3:27:33Your political opponents, in my sentiment, they have any grace, except McGovern.
3:27:39Well, I don't care what they do.
3:27:41But, you know, Maxfield isn't going to say anything before he goes to China.
3:27:48That's for him very much.
3:27:50And,
3:27:51Fulbright yesterday, with all his pie, said he was not yet ready to say there should be a clear day of terminating the war.
3:28:01They're watching the war as well, too.
3:28:04They'll figure what we have done.
3:28:08They'll figure if you win, you'll destroy them.
3:28:11If you lose, they can get you after you lose.
3:28:15So what then?
3:28:16Why should they tackle you prematurely?
3:28:19And
3:28:20I think, I think, and I think this is exactly the point we have now, but now, from the moral policy standpoint, there's any question that what we really have to agree, unpredictable, unpredictable is that the speech would certainly
3:28:44and to mute and mitigate the ferocious astra.
3:28:48And Mr. President, from what I know of the way you prepare for this meeting, it takes really an enormous emotional concentration.
3:28:56I know that we may need it next week, or the week after.
3:29:01It's too early.
3:29:02You're assuming you'll put it too early this week.
3:29:06And above all, it will take away from the ferocious destructions
3:29:10You've got to remember I can pay out a little emotional thing.
3:29:13I have to.
3:29:15I just want to.
3:29:16Mr. President, you'll pay it out.
3:29:17You've actually paid it out throughout your term.
3:29:20The question is, is it wise to do it this week?
3:29:24And I think it is not wise to do it this week.
3:29:27And I say this as someone who started out as a strong advocate.
3:29:34I say it.
3:29:35I wasn't there for that, and I didn't think that it was an exclusive thing that just depended against the vision of the book we made, but after we both interacted about it, I essentially was afraid of him.
3:29:48I thought it was a good thing that the police didn't have to be in the direction of seriously jeopardizing it.
3:29:55Anyway, and that's the reason for the LHC.
3:30:03You take this, and you get this, and don't go any much further than this.
3:30:25And give this as far as you can, provide this as far as you can, to these galleys and the coasts and, you know, the whole group.
3:30:31And believe me, Henry, they've got to be led.
3:30:32These guys have got to be led.
3:30:33There's a lot of things going on, but they don't know what the hell to say right now.
3:30:38Let's turn over, let's unleash a very good one.
3:30:39Let's try to get him around.
3:30:40Sorry to bring him around.
3:30:42Not bad, not bad.
3:30:44You agree?
3:30:44I'd give him, I'd not let him do it.
3:30:46Because he's become too much of a central and a good force of people.
3:30:53I love cold water.
3:30:55But you are not yet that happy to be involved, Mr. President.
3:30:59The beauty of the way we plan it is, it still teaches the region, it doesn't yet, it isn't yet you against the world.
3:31:11You've got to hear all the points I want to make.
3:31:47I think Mr. President, it is the...
3:32:12Why, as men of patriarchy, do you think we can make this deal next week?
3:32:17Perhaps it may be necessary, but I never thought we could get away with it because we were so little known.
3:32:23It comes to that pretty good sense that we could get away with it.
3:32:31We've got these guys really divided.
3:32:36I must say...
3:32:39Everything up to now has been done.
3:32:43We wanted to have things improve better.
3:32:46Yeah, but you see, as I understand it, the correct thing went wrong.
3:32:51The enemy's major effort now is not in one eye, but it goes down.
3:32:55Imagine if it was in one eye.
3:32:58What is it?
3:32:58Good.
3:32:59Good.
3:32:59That's what we want.
3:33:00That's where they have to go, just because that's where they went away.
3:33:04Right, that's right.
3:33:04Military Region 3, of course it takes like, something high.
3:33:08Military Region 3 is basically a diversion.
3:33:11What I wondered was whether Military Region 1 was a diversion for the purpose of cracking through the creek.
3:33:20See, that could be a job as smart as telling them,
3:33:24He does the things that our boys always do.
3:33:27He faints and then he hits somebody.
3:33:29So let's take another visit.
3:33:32Well, Mr. President, I would just be astonished, because they had not survived that day.
3:33:38I don't know how that happened, because what the hell, I thought we were supposed to knock a lot of time on Laos, but we're bombing all year.
3:33:44We're bombing.
3:33:46It has built up in the central islands.
3:33:50More than any soldier that's killed in Cambodia, on that front, we see it in places.
3:33:58In the MR1 region, they can feed a few people, but those being not.
3:34:05In the MR3 region, it takes six weeks for a guy to walk down.
3:34:10I just don't think they have the structure, but more than two weeks.
3:34:13Listen, one is the place we'll take care of, because the weather will clear.
3:34:19And then we've got gunships, gunships can fly.
3:34:22Oh, yeah.
3:34:23And MR0, moreover, MR3 has good weather now.
3:34:27I don't live to do that, but it hasn't cracked yet.
3:34:31There have not been a massive attack on that cloud.
3:34:37I had a lunar report.
3:34:39It's midnight.
3:34:42It's one o'clock in the morning.
3:34:46It's three o'clock.
3:35:20What you say, I'm just wondering if it's true, if we had any American insurgents who saw a South Vietnamese gun knock on the tank.
3:35:29I just want to know if that's true.
3:35:30We do know that there was a tank attack.
3:35:35We do know the weather was too bad for our air force to fly.
3:35:39We do know that the North Vietnamese tank was repulsed.
3:35:43We do know that.
3:35:44That's right.
3:35:45Now, my noon report says that General Lamb is elated, that he says he has scored a tremendous victory.
3:35:55Now, maybe the guy is smoking a lot, but he's a calm guy.
3:36:02So, maybe they knocked out only 40 tanks, but I must say... Well, they knocked out 20, so...
3:36:10All good, the North Vietnamese have only 300 times altogether, according to our estimates.
3:36:17Now, you have to add to it that even if they double the casualties, even if they triple it, there must be at least as many casualties as we can see that are caused by S-bombs.
3:36:29They're just accurate in Europe.
3:36:32It isn't statistically possible that in a sprung, which is only 10 miles from the border that they've even introduced, never hit anything,
3:36:40What do you think the one has been accomplished?
3:36:44Subpsychology.
3:36:45We took out the air.
3:36:47We didn't take the core.
3:36:49We went after the muscle.
3:36:52And we went after the POS.
3:36:56We had no photogram.
3:36:58All we know is that there were a number of explosions and fires that were so powerful that they illuminated the clouds.
3:37:06At night over which they were flying, so that the clouds were at an altitude of about 3,000 feet, so they must have been pretty strong.
3:37:13Alright, now, secondly, it must have hit them when we met the staff.
3:37:20This was the first time the P-52s were hit over North Vietnam.
3:37:26P-52s are, in fact, their most aggressive party.
3:37:30Above all, they indicate that the restraints are coming on.
3:37:33They didn't expect that they would go far.
3:37:36They expected, maybe cruelly, that it was a bear's job.
3:37:40And they've been getting, in fact, unlimited bear's jobs.
3:37:44They expected a much more massive protest than this one.
3:37:48They must have expected it.
3:37:51And I think they must have expected above all themselves to be released into the land.
3:37:55They certainly expected to be released by chance.
3:38:34This is Brewster's memoir, however, on Saturday night, playing at the North Beach, and he's there on the edge of the sea.
3:38:43He's right after the end of the end, so they shut the roof down.
3:38:47He lived at 68, and they're doing it at 72 now, and they can stagger to victory.
3:38:51It pays off, and they've done it now over twice, so maybe they forget what to do now.
3:39:31Overboard.
3:39:33Like the hell of an eagle, please.
3:39:37Oh.
3:39:37You don't see any, do you?
3:39:40I mean, it's a destroyer.
3:39:44It's a destroyer.
3:40:00A day, a week ago.
3:40:03Yeah, 60 a day, a day, 50, 80 a day.
3:40:05Before the week is out, fully.
3:40:08Yeah.
3:40:09Let's see now, how would you have this person get out?
3:40:15Should you get someone around her?
3:40:18You already got her out.
3:40:19I think it's the best thing.
3:40:20Why don't we get together a few of our professionals and house friends and ones that we talk to?
3:40:30They're on the road for a short time.
3:40:33And then, of course, then it's Scali.
3:40:34If you look at something through here, Scali's flying.
3:40:37That kind of people, you know, they're really pretty good at it.
3:40:43So, uh, I'll talk to them again later about that.
3:40:51I'll talk to them about it later.
3:40:55I hope that was amazing to me.
3:40:59It's not...
3:41:00But because of your criticism, we haven't got any sustained attacks.
3:41:07I was very mild and evicted by his family.
3:41:14I haven't kind of filled out, but, well, the Kennedy, the Kennedy, the Kennedy wasn't there, the Kennedy was Humphrey, Humphrey backed him up.
3:41:22But on the other hand, Humphrey also said, Humphrey was on both sides of the issue.
3:41:28The first reaction discussed was, well, now we are free to use our air power.
3:41:30And all of the, all of the materials in particular was said about Humphrey yesterday.
3:41:38But then Senator Humphrey made a statement,
3:42:12I wonder...
3:42:38I haven't been through it yet, you know, but I was wondering why I wanted it longer.
3:42:42But I wondered, you know, if you could give it a little substance, if one of your dolls, or maybe even a sapphire, could take where I sit at that stand as my own thing, and take that part of it has to do with arms control, etc.,
3:43:04and restating the proposition again.
3:43:06It's a major problem, and they put it right in there.
3:43:09In other words, let me put it this way.
3:43:11The Canadian draft at the present time talks about the brotherhood of Canada and the United States, the neighborhood of the United States and Canada and the Americans, in other words, the alliance.
3:43:28And then the alliance, et cetera,
3:43:30And then some of the world brotherhood of man.
3:43:33Well, of course, that's all I can say.
3:43:37Now, let's come to another point.
3:43:40Then it talks about Beijing and Moscow.
3:43:43It does not say enough, in my opinion, indicating that I don't want to be political, but I think you've got to indicate that, well, it was that sentence about the interest that I struck out in religion.
3:43:59Our long-range interests are not compatible, and never will be, as long as they're conscious and we're not conscious.
3:44:05You know that, don't you?
3:44:08Great.
3:44:08Now, let's come to the point.
3:44:09I think what we've got to say is that we have made significant progress in our implementation.
3:44:16See that?
3:44:16Deep, deep, deep.
3:44:17Let us recognize that the goal is not implementation.
3:44:22There will still be enough arms to have a hell of a war.
3:44:24The goal will be to restrain
3:44:28particularly the restraint of all powers in the use of progressive force, indeed, against the neighbors, and the restraint of great powers in encouraging other nations to use them.
3:44:40And on this, the United States committed an all-nation effort.
3:44:45I think it's a nice movement.
3:44:47It's growing again.
3:44:49I think it's essential.
3:44:51Absolutely.
3:44:54I'll have you settle for a copy in the last draft.
3:44:59Maybe you want to do it yourself.
3:45:05I'll work on that.
3:45:06This is important.
3:45:07You've got my language there.
3:45:09Your language is one of the things for which you don't get enough credit.
3:45:18It's really so good that I frankly don't think we should change it too much.
3:45:22It's very subtle.
3:45:24It makes every point.
3:45:26I mean, after all, here you have a blue tent.
3:45:28There's nothing sad about it.
3:45:30It leads all the blue tents, and yet it's not provided.
3:45:34No, because it simply says, it doesn't, I didn't challenge the soldiers at all.
3:45:40I simply said, our goal is peace.
3:45:42That means that great powers must be served in strength.
3:45:48We can stop today.
3:45:53This is the worst month for the government.
3:46:18It's just a thing we've got.
3:46:20I don't think the state people understand.
3:46:27The state people don't understand.
3:46:28They don't link things together.
3:46:31We don't even have to stop it.
3:46:33If the Soviet Union and we are hostile to each other, then there's no reform in Central Europe.
3:46:40There's no reform in Central Europe.
3:46:41There's no basis for France's policy.
3:46:44They need a summit for their service policies.
3:46:48That's what they learned in the 70s.
3:46:52They need our summit.
3:46:53If they're ever going to send one of these, what if you decide you're going to be a son of a bitch?
3:46:58Or an artificial.
3:46:59And secondly, in disrespecting the Democrats, I'm going to feed all of this to you.
3:47:04I'm going to say this from Soviet point of view, because the Democrats, before and currently as well, have not pressed them.
3:47:11I mean, after all, you and I know, and they know, that we are at least prepared
3:47:16to consider the proposition that Israel will be subjected to maximum pressure.
3:47:20Question.
3:47:22What should we do?
3:47:24And this is a subjective question.
3:47:28Very good.
3:47:29What should we do about that?
3:47:32I think we ought to make it the last three to lay the ground.
3:47:38Oh, yes, I agree.
3:47:38It's one person, actually.
3:47:41I think something like 9,000 is going down to 60,000.
3:47:49Well, you see, the trouble we're running into, Mr. President, is that this, we maybe take too much out of that ground.
3:47:58Well, I don't want to take out, we don't take out any, we don't, but I don't know.
3:48:02The problem is we face this problem every month.
3:48:05Well, I know.
3:48:07Right, but if we get down to 50, 40, then that's all.
3:48:11Well, another thing you can do is make it two months or less.
3:48:44By that time, something would have broken, because there was a situation where you either lost or won.
3:48:52That's where they made their terrible mistake.
3:48:54One of the two ones that announced that.
3:49:01I think I missed it very much.
3:49:05Here's where I missed it.
3:49:07I missed it.
3:49:13What was the troops feeling when you came in?
3:49:30See what I'm getting at?
3:49:38I have to think.
3:49:44We're not deciding it now, but I want to do the true thing in a way that will leave us all of our needs
3:50:13But I think that's a modest number to take out, isn't it?
3:50:16You're only getting out 20,000.
3:50:17That's very good.
3:50:18You're going to have to take it out pretty good.
3:50:26We're going to just sweat it through.
3:50:31We're not going to be knocked out totally by losing the town.
3:50:37We're not going to be knocked off by the men in the cities.
3:50:41We're not going to be knocked off by Chinese or Soviet troops.
3:50:46They're going to play this game.
3:50:47Take care of the soldiers.
3:50:48You're right.
3:50:49We've got them with a hair of sugar.
3:50:51And we're going to play it tough.
3:50:54We'll just do it.
3:50:54We're going to have to tell the arena, well, we're in the game as well.
3:50:59It'd be great.
3:51:01I've come through.
3:51:02That message to Bob at times like this would be that much easier to say.
3:51:05Thank you.
3:51:06What did you say for them, sir?
3:51:08I said, the president was serious in considering the request for a memorandum of the possibilities of decommissioning, which we couldn't put our eyes into, because we didn't have the degree of gratification.
3:51:20The poachment began out in front of us for the second military agreement, six months.
3:51:26You were supposed to hold me down, and we had engaged in an investigation.
3:51:32You sure thought I was a little passive?
3:51:34I'm sorry.
3:51:36Medikation intended review of the situation, but that review was completed after communication with the person.
3:51:44Then he said openly that he might still do it.
3:51:48Then I had Rush, who had been asked by the Germans to write a personal letter to Spatzel, to communicate to Spatzel that he cannot now write such a letter.
3:51:59And I voted to give this to Powell, the ambassador,
3:52:04Det er færre enn vi trodde.
3:52:34Well, particularly what the summit is, something is another thing.
3:52:37You see, the summit, they may think, is something for us.
3:52:41No.
3:52:42Well, let's think for a moment as they do.
3:52:44Something for me.
3:52:47For me.
3:52:48On the other hand, the German thing is something they apparently need.
3:52:51Mr. President, the summit, as long as it was something for you, they were screwing you all over the place.
3:52:59The summit became something for them when they developed the Chinese summit.
3:53:04It became something for them, but they needed their dreams.
3:53:07I suppose the press will play off the Chinese criticism.
3:53:14Well, it's not such a lot.
3:53:15You know, they support the Vietnamese position, but it's in effect their version of the organization.
3:53:21They are in effect saying, what you're doing is just.
3:53:25American imperialism has no right to do this, and the Vietnamese people will succeed in this, just like they did with the Chinese people.
3:53:34I think, Mr. President, we really...
3:54:01The way this is around, because supposing we had gone on saying the war is winding down, and supposing this had hit us in September, we now know for sure that by the democratic convention, this thing is going to be one loss.
3:54:25If it's lost, let's get it over with now.
3:54:29without the balance of our time here, without worry.
3:54:32You did morally, I think, Mr. President.
3:54:35The country will thank you.
3:54:37You're going to be history books ahead of us longer than you are.
3:54:43But I am against it.
3:54:47Don't slack now this week.
3:54:51I'm not so sure they're going to grab.
3:54:53They're fighting better than in Laos, for example.
3:54:56In Laos, yes, in Laos the thing was never...
3:54:59I told you in Laos from the beginning, you didn't look at it.
3:55:02I know you didn't.
3:55:04Every day, every day.
3:55:06And I've never felt that we were in command of the situation in Laos.
3:55:11Never.
3:55:12I sense that we're getting in charge of that situation.
3:55:16Now...
3:55:17I could be surprised.
3:55:18They told me that one of their labors is very good at using air to support troops.
3:55:24Maybe this is something like that.
3:55:27But it's very much independent of what you have to say.
3:55:30For me, he was told to bug out.
3:55:34Even in the Laos operation, he wasn't really given the sense that we wanted him to be there at all costs.
3:55:42He didn't.
3:56:08You don't get any things out of state now about how horrified they are?
3:56:13Uh-huh.
3:56:14We've shaken them up.
3:56:16We've got the government working with you.
3:56:20Now, I'm sure that it blows up the planet all around.
3:56:23Why?
3:56:25Well, if it blows up, if all you had to do was speak with the president is to say that it's their job,
3:56:32It would have blown up by now, and that group was really...
3:56:35If we had said last week that we're continuing with the immigration plan, that there are problems on everything, and we provide the same kind of support that we had, no shift, no movement, I think by now they would have lost weight.
3:56:52And the whole thing would have started in many ways.
3:56:56Every day, I don't know if you can call it...
3:57:04Why should they attack you?
3:57:08If you lose, they don't play a game anyway.
3:57:12If you win, they are through if they have to attack you.
3:57:36We'll see you with your parents about 4.30.
3:57:39Yes, over there.

Nixon, Kissinger & Haig on Vietnam War and B-52 strikes

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 10, 1972

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