Conversation 334-002

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Well, it's really not that bad.

It's not too bad.

No, and also you get on the top of the show.

right after the news shows, and get all the way through it, obviously, all the way through.

So at 9 o'clock, I will announce it.

Now, what I'm supposed to say is that the gentleman had a question.

When and how the president will make his announcement regarding troop levels in South Vietnam, which he said he would make prior to April 1st.

I mean, I'll tell you the thing.

When, how, and what the president will announce tomorrow.

The president made this decision yesterday.

I'm here to discuss it with you this morning.

Well, that's in Camp David this morning.

The President will announce his decision on troop levels, on the troop levels, I'll say, in South Vietnam, half a day first, and report on the general situation in South Vietnam.

Yeah, let me say that.

This announcement, of course, is leading me to a conversation with you, sir.

Thank you, Ambassador Bunker, Ambassador Porter, and General Abrams.

I think the way the President will announce his decision on what the truth level will be, that leaves it open to say if it's going to stay the same, go up or down.

There's no problem with this, but I don't want to use your judgment on it.

I'm probably pressed on this credibility thing a little bit.

It's an in-house thing.

It's not a major story, but no comment.

I'm going to say something else.

Both sides of the brief have been bizarrely unexpected this year, and I don't think they've had the opportunity to explore each other's views.

They've definitely been fine.

The announcement will have led to a great deal of speculation, and the trip's success could be written whichever way.

Henry's whereabouts have become, of course, a matter of great interest.

No matter what we would have said about where he was, the same situation would exist unless we would have said he was in Moscow.

I think all that's fine if you would say the President believes that seeking peace in Vietnam is so important that he will pursue any channel, secret or public, to achieve that goal.

and where the interest of seeking peace will be served by a secret meeting.

I mean, he will, of course, be so worried.

But of course, gentlemen, you have all been informed about it now.

The American people will be informed.

But that takes precedence over business.

Our goal, Dr. Devine, you know,

the interest of the United States must take precedence over.

Disclosure to the press.

Put it that way.

Disclosure to the press of the whereabouts of the president's advisors.

Put it that way.

Disclosure to the press, not to the country.

Now, you don't want me to say, are you going to see a piece of Vietnam as president?

This is so important.

So we don't want that, right?

That's right.

Very good.

OK.

And the way I talk to Henry about this, what was this, a crisis at the summit?

How did I qualify?

I mean, since the gentleman's never been to any one of that.

Not very often, is that right?

Well, of course, he didn't have anything to do with it at the summit.

That's right.

So I don't know about that.

I think if they get that question, I'd say no.

Just say no and nothing more.

Uh, no.

I don't think it's about the alarm, sir.

Okay?

Good.

Okay, all right, all right.

No problem.

Did you breathe yet?

No.

Get a napper in there, please.

Somebody gave me this draft.

I don't know what he wanted me to do.

Oh, yeah, sure.

Let me say before you do that the main point I think that I'm trying to get across there is to be contrary to all your does and all sorts of intellectuals.

See, they are hypersensitive about, well, we can't let it be like Cambodia, and so forth, and I agree.

This is a very subtle difference in tone here.

The important thing to have in mind is that this is being said in the Russians, in Hanoi, and therefore the reference to the election has to do with that.

It has nothing to do with Capitol Hill address, if you see what I mean.

And don't be concerned about what the Washington Post wrote or all of our people and so forth about it.

Cambodian language, the rhetoric was, frankly, as we all recognize on that, was, frankly, that wasn't the problem in Cambodia.

The problem was Kent State.

But be that as it may, we are not, we're not intending to try to do that.

It's a very subtle difference.

No, beyond that, beyond that, I just want to say, anything that you have, I just want you to know why I have

And I thought over the evening and this morning, well, we've got to get this across.

Let me say, the purpose of this is to deal with the hawks, not the doves.

We've got to play the hawks right now.

Very important.

They're our only problem.

The doves are not our problem.

Right.

The only thing I would say about the doves is you've got to be modeling, but not in flames right now.

Are you ready for this new?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You've got to have your stuff.

I'll be able to bring that in.

You want to go over this with me and Riz?

Oh, I'll go over it with Henry now and then later on.

We've got plenty of time now.

Thanks.

We've all done a fine job.

Uh...

too much in the beginning, except for some minor changes, I think it's very good.

I would not, I would not, for example, call it the most generous piece of history of warfare, only because it gives you a pipe of gold.

Okay, well, that's an extremely generous piece.

That sort of thing, you're going to have to make that sort of change.

So, at the beginning, I really, I haven't,

I had a chance to put in my comment, but... You don't want to know why I'm trying to be, trying not to be concerned about the Doves.

We always have to be concerned about the Doves, and it never helps us.

We're not going to be... Well, no, it helps us to keep them divided.

Because we also want to speak to, we want to speak to the Russian Great Company.

Right.

I don't think you have any problems with the Reagans.

And...

McGregor tells me that in his calling around, you have no problem.

Of course, I'm speaking the 20th of tonight, and I'll give you a better judgment there.

Yes, I understand.

Well, we'll understand.

I'm willing to come down, but I just want you to know that I don't think they're getting out of line.

The thing that I would... Bring me a cup, please.

I mean, going through it, why don't we go through the first part and get that out?

I don't think there's much in the first.

It's probably pretty good.

That's very cool.

And all the crap about the casualties and so forth.

Right.

It's just war there.

See, we've got plenty of time now.

Having gotten it out this early, we've worked on it all the time.

Exactly.

I can say, you know,

It's Friday afternoon.

It's the most, what do you want to call it, forthcoming of a classic match of the, well, the action that sets the hit to work at Dutchman.

So you can make an even stronger case about the casualties.

In the year before, if the casualties had been as high as 700,

You make any changes like that, Henry, that you want, you know, and submit it back to me, and I'll look it up tomorrow.

Okay, so I won't bother.

Okay, now, you keep going through the...

So this was not just total rejection of the father-bearing table, it was total refusal even to discuss?

Aye.

All right, well, you do that, which makes it even stronger, the total rejection of that edit.

All right, page three, go ahead.

And to have strengthened that even more.

Sure.

Is there anything you want, Michael?

I hope you're doing all right.

No, I'll be fine, Mr. President.

Actually, one problem I had is I realized I hadn't eaten enough because of this time difference.

Yeah.

It was actually 3 o'clock, Moscow time.

I called Kay Gray.

What happened?

Well, she hadn't heard it yet.

She wasn't the way back from New York.

She regained her consciousness.

Yeah, but I told her, you know, Kay, that she thought I was calling a complaint about this, the publishing secret paper.

I said, Kay, I think it's a disgrace that you published a secret paper, but I want to tell you about the secret paper.

How so?

Because if you actually read it, you'll see that we had it in a total mess for a month in December.

This is the situation as it was in January 20, 1969.

It took over.

So that did not happen to her.

That's exactly who did the national interest.

But when I read to Ed Goyer, I had to say... Good for you.

...that it shows once again that you have the frequency studies to give us no benefit, Mr. Dunham.

And then you told her about you tripping.

And I said, you know, she said, well, you know, we have to ask her what happened.

Oh, she had lunch.

No, no, no, no.

But you said that she, at least she almost did.

I said, you know, if you could test the filthiness, fairness, I wouldn't be afraid to do it.

But now that something has happened, it's totally not true.

Right.

I have a little bit here.

I don't mind any of it.

It doesn't total up to $120,000.

And when you say only $25,000, it doesn't sound so bad.

But this is...

But I can fix this up.

You're going to have to work all these jobs.

I'm not going to care about that.

$10,000 is enough.

I think it's a matter of... Oh, it's just $120,000.

At the top of page 5, high-strike elephants are out probably underneath the air.

I think it's maybe better to cut some.

Is that worth doing?

It's important to do that.

The battlefield is important.

I don't want to go to page 5.

It's a little stronger than the first thing I say.

That the cells that we can use as a program have moved the cells sufficiently for me to control them.

And then we'll tell it on page 76.

It won't be detrimental.

I may get more positive.

I can change them for you.

That's all I can go through.

And I can do that.

It's done.

It's done rather, rather well.

One thing I would not say is, before I could ever make another anonymous, it would be a little short.

I'll make another announcement.

As to Americans, you may not be able to do anything.

Why not say it?

I could say I'll make another announcement.

Why not say a thing?

Why not say anything?

This will be marching into it.

I just leave.

I leave that whole paragraph out.

Good.

You're just filling yourself with...

Right, right, right.

We may not need to announce it.

That's right.

You may just announce no more draftees, and you'll all still go to work.

But secondly, you'll burn a very tiny bit.

Just say secondly.

To restore your business will be... A buy.

I agree.

We are always ready to push you.

Always ready to push you, please.

And because they have never quite been in my name, because they've been part of this enemy's proposal, and they've been in my hand,

They made it very briefly, and then they immediately withdrew from it.

All right.

All right, let's say proposal.

Let's say proposal.

We don't say proposal.

I would object to proposal.

Yeah.

Proposal.

Yeah, that's very American.

American.

Objection.

Proposal.

All right, fine.

I don't think your bombing is that much of an issue if you need a whole page of mine.

I mean, you're saying you ordered the bombing, but...

What do you want me to cut?

I would just tell these people, I would cut the next paragraph.

Why did I?

For the isolation.

All right.

I just say people will recall.

Good.

Maybe we'll cut some more.

Yeah, that's all right.

Just do it a little bit.

Please don't check it.

They've been directed only against military support.

Do you want Brett to come out?

What about they've been directed only against military support?

Okay, that's fine.

I'll tell you that we'll not stop until the station stops.

You take it down to there and then strike the right on the dead spot.

All right, that's exactly in for that.

Fine, okay.

Let's go.

Do not take out of the grid that you trust them, or else do not talk with them.

This could be the use of the computer to get to the dead end.

I would just say what I do not comprehend, what I'm sure is comprehensible.

And the logic of those critics.

Did you strike the middle part?

Yes, I strike the contiguous views of Americans.

Where?

I would go from, they will not stop until the invasion is done.

And then I just say, I do not comprehend.

And you take out those contiguous views?

Yeah, I would say, well, I doubt it to be true.

You take that out?

Yes.

They're working it out on the basketball game.

This game will be starting about 10 after 8, but I'll be through.

So they'll delay the start line a little bit.

So that's a good thing.

I hope I can be honest.

I mean, not 15, maybe 10, 20.

Well, the thing is, you should not shorten anything you're going to say because of this.

So they missed the first tip-off or something.

That's the problem.

Just tell them to delay the .

You want that paragraph out?

They will not stop until then.

I do not comprehend, and I'm sure.

What, I do not?

No, I do not comprehend.

You want to leave that?

What do I not comprehend?

That sentence can go.

Frankly, that paragraph can go, too.

I might use it more matter-of-factly.

All right, I'll define it.

The better you ask, the better.

Well, then, we'll leave that out.

That point has been made far enough.

It will stop something.

That's okay.

That's a comparison.

That's better than everything else.

I think that point has to be excellent, right?

Excellent.

And then how will we respond to the challenge?

That's about it.

All right.

So, whatever you want.

I don't have a...

But they must say, and let the communists take over if they can.

Let the communists take over if they can.

That's what it really is all about.

Let the communists take over if they can.

Because they let the Congress take over, they would take me.

I let the Congress take over, fine.

Throughout.

And never, and never to break it.

Take out the next paragraph.

Right, Mark.

We didn't want to take the Russian to the market.

No.

Okay.

One country with the assistance of

All right, take out, let us look at the facts.

So let us look at the facts.

All right, so take out the paragraph.

The rest of it.

One country.

That's good.

Powerful.

but this is one that I've said for God's sake.

We will not be humiliated.

We will not be defeated, and we will never surrender.

That was fine.

I would take out the next... You don't like jingoistic national pride?

Well, I don't like what we make.

I would like to take out the potent support of communism.

All right, all right.

This is not a matter of jingoistic national pride.

What's that, sir?

I want to say that in order to not break down this issue.

This is not a matter of who is diplomatic and who is private.

We don't want to say that the next president will not.

All right.

Okay.

The next paragraph is taken directly to our agenda.

All right.

Thank you.

You're saying a lot.

And this is a tough speech as it is.

I'd say that it's not a matter of statistic, but here in America, in the world, in the beginning of time, it's not a matter of... Then let's leave off, let me take off, because you see it doesn't mean anything.

I don't think we can do that.

It's got the whole barrier.

We will never surrender.

Let it just stand right there.

And then not say, let me read it.

American problem, let's just start right there.

American problem, Vietnam War.

Your life's neither open-ended nor unbounded.

That's the one.

That's there.

Your Lord's over there for you.

That's the Lord.

If I ever would make out of this fire, I'd imagine what you're doing now.

Because that is what you'll be.

Yeah.

You're gonna come a long way.

I don't think the day is not listening.

That's fine.

You want to say that the day is not listening?

No.

We can now see the day.

No more.

Yeah, that's better.

We've come to the end.

It's long.

It's difficult stuff.

It's very important.

It's very interesting.

Take it out.

Yes, sir.

Mark, leave it off.

Bye.

Why don't you go on and say it?

I will just go to the United States this year.

The United where?

The way you say it.

Well, why not say that the United States is one part of the United States?

That's not bad, that paragraph.

Read that one again.

Well, if you say we have never stopped, it would be easy to get into a long answer.

Why don't we just really start this?

All right, fine.

I'll leave.

I'll take out the second one.

Fine.

But the one sentence that I would like to hear,

Well, all right.

Find a way to leave that in.

Just say that I have an obligation.

As I sit in this office, I realize that I have a great obligation to future generations.

The man who sits in this office

I have no relatives or no mentors in this office.

I have a great tradition of world leadership.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, a great application.

Yeah, yeah, something like that.

But now, you have the essential toughness still in you.

But next month, next week.

Oh, no, I like it.

And that, in fact, makes it better.

Good.

Excellent.

With these cuts, I think it's going to be spectacular.

It's really not bad.

It is a damn good piece, and a damn great piece.

Stuart, I'll call it out.

What do you think?

He pissed off.

Oh, no, no.

He liked it.

Oh, oh.

Mr. President, you have no choice.

What are you saying?

Stuart Alsop called up.

I'll leave it to you.

I'll take it to him.

Stuart Alsop, you know, he came in last week and said, why did you find out about that?

I knew he had his family.

And what did you say?

I said, Kevin, take it easy.

To his credit, he wrote a column this week.

in which he said the dog didn't bark, he said it doesn't make any sense.

He said the dog didn't bark and it sure enough holds, sure enough holds sound, okay?

Because the dog didn't bark, he said, now this doesn't make any sense.

The president is a long-headed man, and therefore it must make sense.

And so now he called, he said, I'm glad I wrote that column.

He went out to look at it.

Because if these guys killed them, we can't tell them that we had accepted the invitation to my town.

And that bombed it.

The guts of that move.

Bombed twice?

That's right.

Henry Lee bombed in two days, remember?

That's right.

After you were there, we bombed.

No, no, but... Oh, the high bomb.

Yeah.

No, the high bomb.

Well, that was after we had accepted the invitation.

Well, that sure is...

But that was the best of things, you know, with the people over that weekend.

I know, because I remember you came in, and you had to think, you had to see the briefing a certain time, and I was sitting around wondering whether they were going to cancel the goddamn thing, and they didn't.

You came in.

It was the folks, but it was the right folks.

It was essential.

I thought I'll say tonight to these congressmen and these officers, I'll use that election as an example.

Oh, good, good, that, yes.

I gave Conley a brief that he came in to do.

Oh, good, how did he come in?

Oh, he is just... What all the time?

Well, I've told him the mood is not so, and what I've said, and what your table has said, and I left you fresh out.

What did he say?

Oh, he said, that's it.

We may have to come

I just was thinking, could that ceasefire in place, if we could get it, would we be able to do it?

I'll take it.

Because any day, if we can... Now, I know this.

I talked to Hayden, you know.

Hayden found this.

The military's always been going to ceasefire.

But, let me tell you that much.

If we get a ceasefire in place, I'll take it in one minute.

Don't tell anybody, but we will take it.

Now, Porter's Facebook...

Oh, then in November we bomb!

Because then in December, if they make a move on Twitch, and Dobrynyk came to my house, they had night, and said, look, if you can't ask in January, they'll send you to, well, he sent two things first.

Why don't you come to my house?

But he also said we could do it after the, not after the, or Gromyko.

After, after June.

After June, Gromyko.

And Dobrynyk said, on January 1st, once, if the North Vietnamese realize they got four more years of U.S., they'll, uh,

Do you think the Russians knew what he was thinking?

See, it's one thing I'm not sure that I agree with you on, but the Russians really want to help us on this.

No, they don't.

See, the Terrence was taken in by that, Johnson was taken in, Vondie was taken in, and Henry Wee can't be taken in.

No, it's the best one.

It's the best one.

The Russians don't consider the war as such an embarrassment.

The Russians are calling.

They've got the Germans.

They have this development.

You go crazy now.

And there's a major confrontation.

The German treaties are through.

They have to try.

The Middle East is down the drain.

The credits are down the drain.

Everything.

The salt is in the drain.

And also, we'll bend to the Chinese.

And so... You realize that?

That's right.

The other thing, and then we down the road.

So that's the difference between us and the previous administration.

Why?

As the president said, we cannot make a deal with you.

And the president has really said that they've got four more years.

We've got four more years in which we can really develop this.

So this statement, no, I have a feeling Dobrynin may want to.

He's been in America long enough.

He's such an intelligent man, recognizing he's a slippery bastard and a communist.

Dobrynin has the sense to see that, really, Russia and the United States have a future in the world in their hands.

And they're there in his and ours to do this goddamn thing.

I don't think he thinks that.

And also, I think he's learned, Henry, as he's talking to you today,

Frankly, we're horrible people.

Well, Mr. President, as I told you, when I jumped over, Kermit told me, he walked with me afterwards, he said, the best thing you've ever done for me is to be so tough to Kermit.

I told them the same thing, but they stopped on you.

You would react violently.

And Kermit would say, Mr. President, oh, no, this isn't so serious.

You've jumped on me.

And I'm not going to jump on you, Mr. President.

He says, stop waiting, Mr. President.

And we got a problem.

Let me suggest on this speech now, I don't want you to show it to the city, I don't want you to show it to Hollywood, I don't want you to show it to the scouts, I don't want you to show it to anybody.

You know, we're done with these little things, and I'd like to go on every third of them.

If you get this on, we'll actually get you around and talk about it when it comes.

Rogers is not to see it.

I will.

Laird has already asked for it.

No, you just give him the paragraph that deals with this.

I'll get then Lewis to make these few changes, get it retouched, in fact, review with him, and I'll let that happen.

No, no, no, I don't need it tonight.

Tomorrow morning.

Tomorrow morning, sure.

The way we've cut it down now.

Oh, it's a good show.

I'll see Rogers.

I want Rogers to say that, God, I don't want to tell him about this.

Just say that the speech that the president, as usual, is working on the damn thing, it wouldn't be very good, because he is a little shit of a man.

You have covered rockers so well, god dang, to say that he knew it, he and I, to discuss it over your trip.

Mr. President, he got credit for the China trip, he got credit for this trip.

And Seoul.

And Berlin.

The thing with Seoul, what do I tell him about that?

I'd say,

Bill, a major subject that didn't come up was Solomon.

And that, under the circumstances, they went further than they got for him, or much more concrete, and the president felt we ought to get Smith back.

But he said, did they give you a piece of paper?

No, I wouldn't say they gave me a piece of paper.

What do you want to tell me, Bill?

No.

Tell him that we've, you see, he had it all set up.

If you get it, he will get it.

Oh, I'm going to take full credit.

I think, Mr. President.

Well, listen, that's the reason that I wired you, because when I heard it, when I heard you went up the wall, I said, hey, God damn, I know this is not an offer.

Mr. President.

Bill is trying to conquer it before you got there.

Yesterday, they had a plan of recession.

Senor Stonehole designed the ranch.

So, of course, Smith now doesn't know what's going on.

The president has asked for a piece of paper.

Why don't you put it that way?

I'll put it, I'll put it in the middle.

Tell him that you had a good tough talk, and they didn't go as far in the talk.

But that you, why don't you put it that way?

How does that sound to you?

But that we, and if he doesn't understand the subject, don't tell him, you know.

What I think we should do is when Smith comes in on Thursday, I should show him the piece of paper.

And we hope that how we got it.

Because, Mr. President, Smith is an expert.

And Smith will know that this is more than he got.

And Smith will keep vouchers on every single one.

Let me say, if you get ahold of Smith and say, look, you have got to remember a charity that's been doing a hell of a lot of credit.

I've got to have you sell it to Rogers and learn it.

Well, that's, you know, there is already told, because Lear has proposed something similar himself.

The Chiefs will be, the Chiefs will be thanking Mr. President.

That's not your problem.

What we have to arrange is that Smith and Ross just don't pretend that they did it.

Now, that's why we need the piece of paper.

All right.

With this piece of paper, Trevor, with this piece of paper... Whatever you think is right.

Oh, I don't care.

I don't care if you think it's all right.

I wonder if you've got a piece of paper in Moscow.

They handed it to you.

Huh?

Well, see it.

He won't understand.

Because you can say that when they raised the curtain on that, why don't you say this, that I wired you and said that I understood they were ready to give something on this issue, and he knows damn well that I understand.

We're very troubled with that.

And this is so many ideas ahead of me.

Oh, shit, Bill doesn't understand it.

I don't understand it.

I know he doesn't.

He doesn't understand it.

I can guarantee you, Mr. President, that everyone who knows the subject will recognize that this is what you're trying to do.

Testers are made when no one is doing that work.

And so then what we have to do is to get to that point.

Oh, I have to be back for that meeting.

But I can do that.

But it's scheduled for three days.

Well, we have to come down there.

I said the best would be if you could come up here.

I want to.

I want you to come up here.

And now, the best would be if you could come up here and step out with us.

We have to get it through the military.

Isn't there a way why we have to come see you there for a change?

Big deal done.

And that builds it up.

Comes to Miami, you see.

Bring the whole panel down.

Why not?

Fly a plane down, and I'll meet with the goddamn panel.

Let's build this whole thing up.

I think we ought to have used Florida so they don't think I'm sitting on Miami.

What?

Anytime you want.

Perfect for me.

And then on Monday, if you set it up and they come down, we have a pair of the kids.

I prefer Friday morning.

Friday morning, have the bachelors get on the early plane and be down on their vacation.

Thursday, we should circle that ride.

We had a funny ride that day.

Or it's a Thursday afternoon.

It's all right.

And then they come down, and you go back at the same time.

And then you can step out on Friday.

That's right, that gives the weekend time.

That's the time to go.

Okay.

Okay, that's okay.

How was Reagan?

He said, oh, he's a terrific president, as we understand it.

Put it for the Russians.

That's what we want.

He still has it.

Congratulations, Dracula.

Nelson is bubbling all over the place.

He knows.

All right, you take it on.

I say I'd like to see another draft by, uh...

Well, no, no, I don't want it tonight because I have this big dinner and so forth.

I don't need to see another grab until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.