Conversation 334-010

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And uh...

His question is whether you wanted to announce it.

I don't think you should.

It's not the A&J unless you want to be presented.

You should.

It's a statement from the A&J.

Well, what does it have to be announced?

I'd have to do it pretty quickly.

I haven't talked to Mitchell, and John may know.

He's been on top of it.

It kind of depends how far you want to go or what... Do the normal stuff, but then...

I'm ready to go over there and get it done.

Well, you, I just got to know about the situation here, so...

Do you want to talk to Mitchell?

Yeah, yeah.

I've got to, I've got to, but I can't get tired of this right now.

Right.

Okay, so I can just know about it.

Well, okay, let me get as much together as I can.

Yeah, and you would like the statement to be extremely brief, of course.

Right.

Extremely brief.

If somebody's got the brains to write out a good statement, I'm sure.

Right.

I can't, maybe, if somebody's really like to, or, you know, I don't know.

I will do it as a very, as a restate of that.

Let me get a package together of what they feel now.

We ought to lower the flag and say order all flags for greetings.

All right.

Immediately.

Order that number immediately.

I see the flag.

All right, now.

Well, you get the dope and call me back, will you?

Get a picture of it.

Maybe you just have to read it now.

Okay.

Well, I have to go to bed.

I have to sleep now, sir.

Parson Edgar Hoover died last week on the site.

Well, he died at the right time, you know, in some way, inaccurate.

Thank God I didn't get the pressures.

I knew it.

I didn't know my house was dead.

You know, I had to ask the poor old fellow to resign.

I didn't do it.

I stood by him.

I didn't do it.

I've got that.

You don't have to take a man out when he's under attack.

Yeah, well, the State Department wanted to do this.

They were saying this is very embarrassing.

We have to do that one day.

How about it?

Watson's a good man.

Sure, he can chase his girls, but what the hell?

Goddamn State Department people and what they do.

Some of them do that, I must say.

Well, I was kind of, you have any word for me?

I had a message for him this morning, and he comes down, and that's all.

I mean, yeah, you know, it must be true.

What is it, five or six hours?

It's sexy.

It'll be...

I have a code set up for them.

Oh, nine.

That's 3.30 over there now.

Yes, sir.

It'll be... Is this milling started at nine?

Started at 10.

And that's your fuel?

Well, I'm sure they're going to do their goddamnedest to keep the name civil enough to keep us on Australia.

Oh, and yet not given.

Well, the thing I... Did you see the memo I wrote yesterday?

I think that's in fact a good tactic to kill them.

I deliver on a very, very rough one, because I know we've got to have a decision on what we're going to do.

I just re-studied this situation incidentally.

As far as the report yesterday, it's been signed.

It's up to the contrary.

It's been in, and it's also, you can predict it from in here, that she's in trouble.

Yes, sir.

What the hell is the trouble there, Al?

I mean, that's a... Was that bad command also over...

It's a bad regiment.

It's another...

It's the third regiment of the 22nd Army.

It's all the way up in the highlands.

And it is not very good, but that's a... A Borg, yes, it always has been.

It's at least pacified...

So that's an area of trajectory that's worth...

I think you had mentioned it a bit then.

Now, what is the situation this morning?

Anything new?

Yes, sir.

We've gotten some additional information.

I have a memo here, but...

He is talking.

Basically, in Quater Tree, what happened was a case of first-class rattle-ass by the 3rd Army Command.

He just collapsed.

What?

No, not the 4th Army Command, but the Division Command of the 3rd Army Command.

Yeah.

There was a rumor while they were under attack that there was a massive force coming in.

of tanks in the southwest corner of the city.

And he just bugged.

Now, most of the units are in good shape.

And they got out.

Not as bad as the paper indicated.

Now you're in here at 140 centimeters.

If they did get out pretty well, that's good.

That is good.

And they're fighting.

They're fighting their way back.

They're in contact.

They're using air.

We are.

We're fighting getting some air on them.

I see it here.

You know, I read Abrams' report.

I'm really confused.

The U.S. Air Force continues to be tremendous.

It is very heavy.

What the hell is it worth?

Here's an indication.

We got a letter sent this morning.

There are 22,000 wounded.

in the pipeline in Laos heading back to North Vietnam, and many more to come.

That was the inner check.

In Christ, if we're talking 22,000 humans are already back.

But the wilderness can figure about 10,000 dead.

Oh, I can say yes, at least that.

And this is, if they're already that far back in the system, we're just talking about the first few days, the first week of this operation.

You see, if you read Abrams' things, I read it last night very closely, it's very impressive.

He obviously wrote this, I could see when he was reading, correct?

Would you gather that?

Very much so.

He starts right off with the idea that the situation has changed, and so forth, and he's an honest man.

But he says there's a dissension among the other commanders, you know, the enemy and the dead man.

based on fear, intimidation, and brutality.

Don't the Americans know how to train people with a little fear?

How do we train people?

Are our individuals, as a region, are we just training them too much like them?

Are they just soft-bound?

I don't know, I'm asking, I'm just wondering.

This is the whole test of the American training program.

Our American trained soldiers were poorer than combatant trained soldiers.

That's what we're being told, isn't it?

That's right, and it's absolutely true.

And it's been especially bad in certain areas.

In Seattle and I-4, our view has been left unheard.

Yeah.

That's what we call, what I call, the distortion of the lips of God.

And that's what we've seen in Cambodia in the last few years, where our God-damned people in the field believe that they've got to learn the hard way.

And if we advise too strenuously or boob-ass, we're then making them too dependent on us.

And it's just the opposite.

It's like the discipline in our armed services today and before them and so on and so forth.

Practically ruins the name by having no discipline.

You've got to have discipline.

You've got to keep these people masked.

Well, okay.

But anyway, the news from that part is not as bad as this.

What else is new?

What about the 22,000 homes?

That's pretty good.

What about the airstrucks, I guess?

Well, yesterday they had record airstrikes.

There were 1,200 tank air swords and 73 armlets.

And they had over 421 in MR1 alone.

So that's got to be doing some good.

I know it's doing good.

Because of the 22,000.

In other words, they've got their hellish problems right now, too.

In a way, I feel better when they collapse before we ship on them and they overwhelm by any power.

The facts of the matter are, and I think they're going to come out, that the command and control just totally collapsed, and that the leader of that outfit broke down.

Now that's a frightening thing, but in a sense it means that the defensive way can be considerably stronger than I thought.

But it is a case of massive enemy power.

It's a case of will.

We've got a hell of a command and a way.

I think we have a very good chance now of holding back because we've got the Marines back in good shape, 20th Tank Battalion, 57th Regiment.

L is the 48, the big tank.

Yes, sir.

How in the hell did we lose 60 out of the 62 free tanks?

How could we have done that?

Well, we lost the M17 left.

And this morning the reporters are withdrawing the 78 tanks.

It says here, M48 tank, 68 authorized, on hand, nine.

Current loss of 65.

Well, I think that's wrong.

Because of the latest report.

How could we have lost them?

I just don't know.

Aren't those big tanks up to fighting the other big tank?

Do they get captured or what?

What in the hell happened?

No, I think these ones have farmed well, and they've been in tank-to-tank battles.

with the tank T-54.

We've lost some of them, and they have beaten some of those.

Incidentally, have they carried out my order to fly in some tanks from Western Europe?

Now, you've got 4,000 tanks in Western Europe, haven't you?

Yes, sir.

What have they done about it?

Now, that launch is made up immediately.

Fly them in.

Don't send them by launch slow.

Can they fly tanks?

They're too big.

Now, they have tanks in Okinawa.

There are plenty of tanks.

uh, in Okinawa and they're moving, moving into, uh, Saigon now.

The problem is, is the goddamn crews.

The crews are going to fly.

Well, I thought maybe the crews were just saying that.

Uh, so they... We're doing our best, though, to reinforce the tanks, right?

Right.

And we also, yesterday, sent over a, uh, a very effective missile that we fired from a helicopter that just developed a... To fight tanks?

Uh, that knocks tanks down.

And they sent a team over to Kessel.

The guy that came back said that, boy, they're very good.

They're really effective.

So they called a team over yesterday.

These are buildings that we use, but they are going to fly higher.

Aren't they all Americans?

Americans would be flying all the time.

They don't come.

We'll lose some.

But it's worth the cost.

We've got to do it.

Everything's got to go in now.

You know, and...

MR2 to the bike for counseling was starting to shake up.

What happened to the report that Henry had that the enemy was going to slop off for a day?

That did not develop the memory.

Henry said the report indicated that they were going to have a, not a stand down, but a sort of a pause.

One of the people was embarrassed.

What's happened?

Is that right?

I haven't seen it.

It's pure damn bullshit.

I pulled it from behind myself every year.

That's being put out by them to suck you along.

Well, I think we'll have a few days to have you get sick.

Right.

Now, what about Contra?

What do you think?

Do you agree with this report that it's going to go pretty soon?

Yes, sir.

How soon?

I'd say within the next 24 or 30 minutes.

Can it be done with grace?

In other words, can they pull the hell out of there, or what is the situation?

Well, in a sense, if they're totally surrounded, they usually do better.

which is an awful thing to say, but these guys will fight your trip.

They have no place to go.

So you think maybe they ought to stay there?

Well, I think they have to.

If they start moving now, they'll go down on the road and be cut off.

And they've got enough people to hold and make that thing work.

In content?

Well, that may last longer than 48 hours.

You never know.

Oh, the fight will last.

Yes, sir.

I thought the attack itself would start.

Oh, you think they'll hold content.

You don't think they're going to lose it in 48 hours?

I don't think so.

I'm not sure.

We've got plenty in the air.

We're hitting that hard, aren't we?

It isn't worth saving either, though.

Too much isn't a problem.

It's not a vital... All right, come down to MR3.

MR3, the...

I think we broke in the back of that thing.

It's a precious part of the...

It's a danger, yeah.

Some of the fish from Saigon said Saigon, right?

All the scare stories now.

No, I think it was described as that action over...

They've opened up MR1, or RUT1, in Cambodia, roughly half the way the Cambodians have.

So I don't think they're really, I think they're going to hold MR3.

And I'm quite frankly related to that.

Isn't that what it amounts to?

Isn't that really what all of, isn't that really what counts as MR3?

When you look at the country.

And poor.

Well, of course poor.

Poor is not seriously threatened.

Families, they can hold MR3.

The other two are less populated there.

We're not, we haven't really reason to, for kind of panicky stuff.

That's what I said.

The press was right yesterday.

That's totally sheer nonsense.

If they continue to fight, and I think they will, it's going to be, there will be some time at the rate they're going, and the successes we're having now before we end the critical situation.

I, through this guy Hallingworth, have done some great work.

Yeah, I've heard it.

I feel better about N1-1 this morning

These units got out with their command and control, and they're fighting their way back with air support, and they're straightening their perimeter in a way, measurely.

That's good.

Well, understand, the thing that runs through this with the Arbors will fight conflicts and so forth, I understand, but I do know, too, that

The communists were experts in panicking and so forth.

You see, Henry doesn't put the same stress that I do about all the need to get to the high ground and all that area.

Let me tell you what the reason is.

I know Abrams is against it because he doesn't want to have all the professors there, and I don't understand it.

It's an important reason.

Now, even though it is quite an important reason, we're going to have to consider it.

We need to be able to defend the United States.

Henry totally

They also understand.

And he says, well, we can't do it until we prove it with the negotiations.

He doesn't understand.

The fact that the common is invaded is why the American people support the U.S. We pulled it on them, and they don't give a shit about the negotiations.

They don't care.

I mean, this, uh, Henry said, excuse me, we just got out this very good news on assault.

I don't know.

Nobody gives a shit about assault.

You realize that?

They don't care.

But I do.

But when they see the enemy invading, the American people support the use of air power against January 9th by 70%.

But that'll ruin it.

We've got to do it.

That's the third, that's the police's work.

But not to be overlooked, they don't, because being domestically tuned, at least when you hit the sun's infectious there, that is the news for two or three days.

They rather know what the enemy's doing.

You get the point?

Now, now,

The second point is, it has, and I put it in reverse order, this is more important than what I just mentioned, is it has a hell of an effect on the enemy.

What bargaining position do we have when we're simply on the defensive in South Vietnam?

Our bargaining position is infinitely greater when they know that we have a hell of a whip in the tail against their hard land right in the heart of North Vietnam.

The third point is,

This may be the most important.

It's the morality of the Irish, with their troops being slaughtered at all points.

They hear that we're bombing Hanoi and Haiphong again.

It makes them think that we're not just talking, but that we mean what we say.

We just cannot continue to delay that.

The guy wanted to do it today, and he couldn't do it.

Or tomorrow, as to where he said he didn't want to do it, because he wants to afford to walk out of the Paris talks and make a shit about the Paris talks.

Nobody cares about the Paris talks now.

You don't, you see, you don't.

Well, having gone through all this, he's not had his right.

But can they chin up that strike to go tomorrow, for example?

Can they, can't they make some sort of a hit to have a high point?

I don't think, because we've got to watch him.

He wants to divide it up now.

He said, well, we'll go one.

We'll put in 15 on 30 that he can do on Friday and another 15 or 20 on Sunday.

Now, you can't do a piss-cast.

We've got to hit him.

My view on it is the worst thing you can do is a half-assed job because that's a demonstration of weakness.

It makes them believe that they can take whatever you have to do up there and hang you.

It's a self-defeating plan.

So I think we ought to let them build up their strength, get cocked forth, do very detailed and careful planning and execute on Friday for two days.

Anything less than two days is wrong.

The idea is skipping a day.

You've got to go one day after another.

The first day they use the suppressed black primarily, and they'll use a third or two-thirds of their air efforts

be sure they can get in the second day.

And it's the second day when the damage is done.

And that's exactly the way it works.

That first strike was excellent, but it would have been even better had we had two days on it.

I think it should be Friday and Saturday.

I think Abrams is going to have to be brutalized.

And the way we do that is to tell him.

It's going.

Well, this is what Moore has done.

I called Moore last night and said, you

to give the plan to execute order to the right.

Would you mention to more of the three reasons that I have mentioned?

It's necessary to enlist him in the order of our idea.

I think that it's enormously important from the standpoint of the enemy so that we have a better market.

It's important from the standpoint of our morale so that they know that the United States, while they're taking the pounding, we're pounding the enemy.

And I am the judge of this.

It's enormously important from the standpoint of American public opinion.

We've got to get some news out of there other than the death news.

I think it is, the press should have been writing about it all the time.

Of course, there's more recent work now.

But Jesus Christ, how many times, can I say, have we lost long-term, and how many times have we lost long-term?

You know?

Well, I think it's not as bad as it is.

It is as bad as it is.

The news is just not that tough.

On CBS last night, they had one show, a little part of it, R.F.

became decorated in a way, and that was the 4-0 crowd, and how they fought.

No, sir.

I don't think it is.

In fairness to Henry, on this hokey-pokey that's going on,

These left-wing sons of bitches don't know what's going on.

And they have it really on them.

They're afraid of you.

And that's one benefit of the parish pokey-pokey and the assault.

It does pay off.

It doesn't pay off in middle America because I think the people in middle America want some goddamn action.

They do.

But you want some action.

You know that.

But it...

Tell me, is Abrams listening to you?

I'll tell you what we did last time.

I'm afraid he's just a little panicked.

Understand, I want the truth, but I don't like to follow him.

He's getting, you know, a little expert because of this today.

He's got to keep his perspective.

I don't know about both of those out there, but he's lost, he's become part of the Caracal crowd, too.

You know, he wouldn't do that, but he's still involved in that.

Well, he's still there to bring Buck up here.

What do you think's happened?

Well, we got a message from Bunker saying that they had him and Bunker had seen the shooting.

Yeah.

And it's not all over the map.

For our performance, it was called the fourth match of the day.

It worked anyway.

Well, this was really a bad thing to do at the point, right?

Of course it was.

So we sent a message to Buckner and told him, for Christ's sake, get back in and see if you can tell him that you're totally behind him and you're going to stay behind him.

And if you need to do that, that's it.

That's got absolutely been important to him.

You know, he's had two years to worry about our tickets in.

God damn if Dan was at the time to start giving lectures on how they should perform health tutors, it would be better to be done.

It has to be done down on the ground where our clients are, and we'll have to use their foot, their mouth, and everything else that they're accustomed to.

It's got to stand.

And don't hit two, especially with Henry and Paris talking about something suspicious of a baby.

That's right.

That's true.

I'll tell you, we were lucky to have two damn Comets.

They do the left way, and they hit the right people over there, and the right people need to get a grip.

It's been a few years since they've ever built that or something.

testimony that is personal.

That's another .

We'll just keep her cool.

You're exactly right on that, too.

Abrams should fall in there and tell Abrams to fuck up himself.

Also, this idea that Abrams is going to hold a brief impression that didn't appeal to him in particular.

I mean, I heard you throughout the brief, correct?

But no, they expect me to go out and lie to them.

If you go out and tell somebody, Christ, I didn't know that I wouldn't touch my head.

I had two questions.

One of them was, I'm going to order Larry to go to my school.

We've all got to stand up.

What the crisis is going to mean to Abrams just to say, well, I'm the person that he presides over about him to be.

Do you understand?

The will, if he shows lack of will, lack of confidence,

I spoke about it on a very dramatic and wordy note.

It didn't collapse on me like that at all.

On a train, it probably never should have collapsed.

That really, uh... You know, they come to and they collapse that fast.

Uh-huh.

Oh, no.

I think it was the old-timey train.

Again, when I'm sitting on it, it trips the other way.

No.

Better to keep waiting for the enemy men to concentrate and try to overcome that place.

You'll be safe, too.

I think we ought to go a little easier on all that.

He's going to have to talk to the best of his heart.

And incidentally, what Henry doesn't realize, Al, I'm sure you do, many worse things.

At this particular point, at this particular point, for me to go to Moscow, we're not going to do it.

I mean, Henry, of course, put all of his life, his dreams, or so forth, the rest of it, puts together the China thing, and now the Moscow thing.

But that is not going to be the case.

If he gets back, we just may answer it.

It won't happen today, that's for sure.

No, it won't happen today.

They don't want a collection.

Should they have a collection?

That's what they're afraid of.

They're not afraid of you.

But anyway, you'll see, on the other hand, the negotiator card that we have of hitting Hanoi High Pond is in arms.

See, as you see that, that punishes them.

Am I wrong or not?

Isn't that true?

They don't want us to start hitting the hammer and roll the head again.

First they put it in the end of the degree that they prevent that.

It's pretty difficult to solve the scenario.

We gave them one pop open and they stopped.

They think we stopped because of American pressure.

Because of Russian pressure.

They were in the sun.

That's what we've got to dispel.

We dispel that by getting them right now.

Well, they're going to reach the planet on Wednesday.

And from the west end, they're going to reach the moon.

Plans for two days.

That's pretty awful, sir.

Friday night, Thursday night.

Does the strike start at 9 o'clock?

Well, of course, I don't know.

What I'm getting at is we start very early in the morning.