Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 340 › Conversation 340-015
Nixon & Krol on Poland and Cold War diplomacy
Tuesday, June 6, 1972 · 9:58 AM–10:15 AM ET · Old Executive Office Building
AI Summary
President Nixon met with John Cardinal Krol to debrief him on his recent state visit to Poland, focusing on the country's political climate and the status of the Catholic Church under the communist regime. Nixon shared his impressions of Polish leadership, specifically regarding his interactions with Edward Gierek, and noted the palpable anti-Russian sentiment among the Polish populace. The two discussed the potential for improving U.S.-Poland relations and explored the possibility of facilitating a visit by a prominent religious leader, with Nixon committing to pursue follow-up actions through established diplomatic channels.
- Poland
- Cold War diplomacy
- Catholic Church
- Edward Gierek
- U.S.-Poland relations
- Communism
Audio
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This conversation has not yet been cut into its own clip, so the player above contains the full tape segment shared with neighbouring conversations. It begins about 01:22:21 into the tape and ends around 01:39:55.
Transcript (AI-generated)
This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Names and numbers are often wrong; speakers are not identified. Do not cite it as authoritative — verify against the audio and the finding aid.
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· Timestamps are positions within the full tape recording.
1:22:06Yes.
1:22:07Hello?
1:22:08Well, how are you this morning?
1:22:11I'm fine.
1:22:11Well, I was in Florida over the weekend and it was raining, so I decided to come back and get to work.
1:22:18Oh, no problem.
1:22:21No problem.
1:22:22Yes, well, I wanted to tell you a little about our bullish stock.
1:22:27It was...
1:22:29There was an enormous crowd out.
1:22:33The government had the, the Paragon had well under control.
1:22:37They let them up, they let them up, you know, on the streets where as an association they kept them back about a block off.
1:22:46But after I laid a wreath, I got in my car and she probably read I stepped out in it.
1:22:52It was quite a moving thing because the mayor's chest was just in eruption and all the way along to them as we drove through the trees.
1:23:00Even then, the crowds were all, well, extremely enthusiastic.
1:23:04They just, we just moved at a pretty fast pace.
1:23:09That was all.
1:23:10Generally speaking, they know that the
1:23:13The sentiment in the country is about as you described it, and I sense that there's just a great feeling of friendship for the U.S. As far as the leadership is concerned, I had a good talk with several of them, particularly Gary, the new Golovkin successor.
1:23:35He's a very interesting character.
1:23:37I don't know how he will turn out in the end.
1:23:40Golovkin, as you know, was very
1:23:42Yeah.
1:23:43Gary is a fellow who's a vigorous, rather a very attractive personality.
1:23:57He told me that we got into, on his initiative, a very interesting discussion.
1:24:10And he said that he was a socialist, a communist.
1:24:12When he said communist, he said his mother was a devout Catholic.
1:24:17And he said, I want you to know that we in this country, that our relations with the Catholic Church are good, and so on.
1:24:26And he made the point, we had already, we had discreetly checked as to whether I could call him a cardinal.
1:24:34because of the shortness of it, but then also because it happened that we were there on a religious holiday called Christmas.
1:24:42I think the latter was the main thing.
1:24:45I think they really felt the place would come on holiday if we did, and they felt it would be, how far people felt it might be, whatever the case might be.
1:24:55He was aware of every question that was made.
1:24:59And so did the governor.
1:25:01And so did the governor.
1:25:02The governor tried to put her in.
1:25:04Now, one thing that the sheriff made, and I don't know whether he was trying to give me a message or not, because I want you to know, I talked to him about you.
1:25:11And I said, well, you know, one of my close friends is one of our leading foreign people.
1:25:21And the sheriff, of course, was talking about her.
1:25:28So, you know, I'm sorry I got cut off.
1:25:29And
1:25:41Yeah, yeah, I think we got it cut off.
1:25:45I remember saying, I pointed out one of my, one of my RLE people in the higher-up who was a Polish background told him, then, then I went on to, we talked about the subject a little bit and he then said, he then said that the Polish people were very religious.
1:26:11something that would never be said.
1:26:13He then went on to say, he says, I want you to know that we welcome, we welcome any of those from the Catholic Church, you know, leaders who want to come here.
1:26:30And, that was the other thing, he said, we would have no objection to people from our Catholic Church and told them
1:26:41I don't know whether that's anything that's new or any of that sort or not, but I don't know whether he was trying to give me a message with regard to Cardinal.
1:26:54But in any event, we went into the substance here at a considerable length.
1:27:00But I, of course, was able to get in my pitch then about how strongly we felt that the
1:27:08Poland, distinguished from Russia, was following a much better course from the standpoint of American opinion and world opinion by allowing the church to continue, and so on.
1:27:22Now, despite all that, of course, there are, as you know, they're very ruthless in some areas.
1:27:31But I must say, on that day,
1:27:34That, of course, was Christmas Day.
1:27:36Boy, they were in that church of a thousand.
1:27:39The robbers went by, went by the people that day, and they just lined up and all that.
1:27:47So there was no, well, if there was fear, they weren't showing it.
1:27:50And the young and the old, they were all there.
1:27:52That was when I was in one of my meetings with the others.
1:27:58But that's about the feel that I have of the thing.
1:28:00As far as the people are concerned,
1:28:04They're considerably better off economically, although still far from where we were in 1958.
1:28:17Deep down, they're very anti-Russian.
1:28:21Anti-Russian, both, you know.
1:28:24They don't like either one because both of them have torn them apart.
1:28:29But they're strong.
1:28:31They took us out to one of their castles.
1:28:34As you know, they rebuilt the city and they did churches.
1:28:40We stayed, actually, in one of the beautiful so-called palaces, I guess.
1:28:47Yeah.
1:28:51Yeah, and then they had, this was bigger than what that was.
1:28:54They were, the way they have done it, I mean, and they're building in the middle of the city.
1:29:05They're rebuilding a very famous building destroyed by the war.
1:29:17Yeah, for money.
1:29:18Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:29:27What are you going to do?
1:29:28Now, we invited him.
1:29:28I invited Gary, of course, to come to this country.
1:29:31I had him invited to Russia, so next year sometime, he'll come, and we'll have to see if he comes.
1:29:39But basically, have you met him?
1:29:43Yeah, well, basically, and you can't tell about, I mean, I'm not, I can't judge about it.
1:29:48There's no question about it.
1:29:49basically, he has a very, shall we say, he hasn't become so encrusted, so totally symbolized and tough as some of the others have become.
1:30:09He has a real streak of decency, and why do you treat my father in that way?
1:30:16As a matter of fact, I was somewhat impressed by the Polish reason that the prime minister was a good man.
1:30:24I mean, by that I mean good men.
1:30:26Totally dedicated to Congress, which they have to be.
1:30:30But on the other hand, trying to make their own way, desperately eager to have opportunities to have economic and other relations with the United States on a long, long basis.
1:30:44someone independent of that is so important to me.
1:30:49That's a lot.
1:30:50And give them a second chance.
1:30:51Now, my feeling, of course, is that we've got to go forward with that because we just can't let very many people sit there and, you know, sit in purgatory.
1:30:58In my view, I think we've got to give them some hope.
1:31:04But with our eyes wide open as to what we're doing, that's, I mean, yeah, that's right.
1:31:13That's right.
1:31:18somewhere between that and we uh we come from that basis and they seem to be uh fairly fairly heavy requests on the other hand they said now we are they said we are proud we said we're proud that we always pay our debts et cetera et cetera et cetera they went on a great length so we're going to have peterson stop by there in july
1:31:46But all in all, my reaction is that the people themselves, I guess, well, I recall one of the interesting observations I was taught through this story, you know, by Gene Munson, and I said, what do you make of it?
1:31:59And I said, well, it's important.
1:32:02compared to Russia at this point in time today.
1:32:04And of course, if you know, it is the Israelis, because the people are, it's even, for example, the people that he had to work with, the servants, he had to give a luncheon, and our people worked with the Poles, and so they were friendly to the pro-Americans there.
1:32:21They're not as ruthless as the Poles.
1:32:25So, for whatever that's worth, these are more average foals, not cardiac type.
1:32:30And I noticed another interesting thing when I got out of the car.
1:32:33The police were not nearly as rough as the Russian police.
1:32:38The Russian police were rough.
1:32:42And incidentally, so I had found when I was in Germany, and here you go, I don't know, boy, they're rough.
1:32:49The German cops.
1:32:53He has the toughness of the Germans, but the Communists on top of that make a real rough person.
1:32:59But the Poles, the Poles had a more, well, they smiled at the second policeman, for example, when they were trying to hold the crowd back.
1:33:10They shook hands, you know.
1:33:12They were very, they were, yeah.
1:33:15But the thing is that I thought the police acting that way was extremely interesting.
1:33:21It was really worth going on.
1:33:23It was really worth going on because it gave us a real lift after our involvement in our imprisonment of criminals.
1:33:40And I think that made an account for the state.
1:33:42The government didn't, incidentally, they gave out no flags.
1:33:44They didn't have any intent for the government to come out when the polls were out.
1:33:53the time or the route, but they have a way of knowing.
1:33:57And they were there, and they set out to the war memorial where they were there by the 10,000.
1:34:01There you go.
1:34:02Yeah.
1:34:28Well, he brought the religious thing up.
1:34:36It could have been a reaction to, you know, we were both different.
1:34:40And we came up and we talked very much.
1:34:43And also, when he sat right next to me at lunch, he went through the same routine with her.
1:34:53He knew her, you know, her background and so forth.
1:34:57Her father was an Irish Catholic, of course.
1:35:02But he did say, the thing that was interesting to me, he said that people would be more welcome to come to Poland, and to visit, and also to visit other countries.
1:35:20So I, I don't know what he was trying to convey, but whatever.
1:35:34Well, what I'm going to do on that is to follow up with my own channels now, and to say that we can have a way to come up with, because he would get a year of luck over here.
1:35:47I think it would be well if we would have to arrange it if he came.
1:35:54perhaps after, shortly after, with the bowl probably coming over here in a year, right after.
1:36:01Otherwise, it would be an invidious comparison.
1:36:06It would be anyway.
1:36:09But if it comes, it would really be an enormous thing.
1:36:12And frankly, it would be good for Poland.
1:36:13It would be good for them.
1:36:15I mean, if they were just seeing it, I mean, they can co-exist with the church there.
1:36:21I mean, they've done so far.
1:36:23And anyway, they got no choice because the Polish people just aren't going to have it washed out on them.
1:36:27That's what I figured out.
1:37:12I was interested in sending a truck to the Gresham House.
1:37:18They really got it organized over there.
1:37:20He takes a full month off in the summer to go to the Black City, and he takes two weeks off.
1:37:28He takes just regular time.
1:37:34I'm trying.
1:37:34He doesn't have to worry about being back and being out in front.
1:37:44Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:37:47Well, I was just so moved by those people there.
1:37:53The only thing I regret is that there's not some way we can break them off.
1:37:59But they are ready.
1:37:59They are ready.
1:38:00I hate to be in Garrett's position, you know, sitting on top of that thing.
1:38:06And I hate to be the Russians.
1:38:08Because the Poles, what I mean is, the Poles, in my view, I mean, the Russians can't depend on those Polish civilians.
1:38:16Not in their lives.
1:38:19Those Polish divisions came along.
1:38:22I think they come over in two minutes.
1:38:25That's right.
1:38:29All right.
1:38:31Well, we'll follow up on this Brzezinski thing, and I'll keep you posted.
1:39:37Oh, yes.
1:39:37Yes.
1:39:38There, you breathe out.
1:39:39And my call is with Terry.
1:39:41Hold on.
NARA Description
On June 6, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon and John Cardinal Krol met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:58 am to 10:15 am. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 340-015 of the White House Tapes.
Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 340-15 Date: June 6, 1972 Time: 9:58 am - 10:15 am Location: Executive Office Building The President talked with John Cardinal Krol. [See also Conversation No. 25-9; one item has been withdrawn from this conversation.]
Also recorded on June 6, 1972
- 025-008 9:21 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:21 am and 9:58 am.
- 340-008 9:21 AM · 18 min — President Richard M. Nixon met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 9:21 am and 9:58 am.
- 025-009 9:58 AM · 17 min — President Richard M. Nixon, John Cardinal Krol, and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:58 am and 10:15 am.
- 340-016 10:15 AM · 24 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 10:15 am and 10:26 am.
- 340-017 10:15 AM · 3 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 10:15 am and 10:26 am.
- 025-010 10:26 AM · 17 sec — H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:26 am and 12:23 pm.
- 025-011 10:26 AM · 2 min — H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman and John D. Ehrlichman talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 10:26 am and 12:23 pm.
- 340-018 10:26 AM · 1 hr 50 min — President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, unknown person(s), White House operator, John D. Ehrlichman, and Henry A. Kissinger met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 10:26 am to 12:23 pm.
Cite this conversation
Conversation 340-015, June 6, 1972. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives. Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/340-015 (accessed October 9, 2026).