Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Vietnam peace negotiations and Henry Kissinger

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It's not all the battle, battle, battle.

It's the, frankly, harder, harder, COVID-19 to do some other things now.

That is another picture we have right in the face of this morning.

Flash.

We told them, did anybody ever come

I'm not blaming you about it.

I just know that this is the problem.

Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison, Allison,

So we went around and around, and he talked about, you know, well, they have the cameras, and they can't get a picture of Swann, and they want to use Swann.

The way to solve that is don't Swann.

It doesn't matter whether you can't or not.

We talked about it two or three times.

I called the terrorists.

Here we came back.

And the world's

Now, the second thing is that you should ask to see her and Julie about what's going on.

We've done a lot of thinking about it.

That's my idea.

She's got to talk to her about it.

My talking to her has got to be very subtly done, but very humble.

You've got to say that you have to think that you're in the ideal situation for who would be named in the system.

Who is the first one to have that second?

Second.

That you'd be with in addition to that.

That there should be an aid of somebody called a press assistant in the first place.

And you'll pick somebody.

If you don't think I want to get to that, you can put somebody else in there.

But you can say, and then you can say that you will be glad.

to take some of the rubber part herself.

And so that's something that we feel we can help out with because there's so much of these things we're going to play with.

They really should not have anything to do with the press.

You know, whether they accept on the page that they were heard about.

Right, on her initiative.

On her initiative.

And on the very call she made.

She might think it was some black shield that she might do.

They heard that you could say that this is an ideal situation and then she could

Yeah?

Yeah, hello?

Yeah?

Yeah, sure.

Well, we won't be tonight.

Yeah, I don't need to go to bed tonight.

Y'all see them?

All of us?

They didn't know us, huh?

What's got to be protected?

I understand.

Okay.

Now they need to go on to, uh, uh, video.

I don't know what your job description is.

Well, I have a description that you were bumping as an across-the-board assistant to the First Lady in the same way as the assistants to the President in the other times, too.

The overall operation of the swim and the residence oversees the staff, the press office, the social office, the residence office, and put it together.

Basically, she runs the joint over there.

We'll work closely with her.

Basically, what she is to you, to the panel, what I am to you, and that's the way she ought to look at it.

He wanted me to meet with Mrs. .

And you said, press the system.

Do you want me to say something?

I don't... You should fix him up.

I'm kidding.

They should change that.

and take the initiative and move the information out by this type of thing.

But she can develop, as I said, special relationships with some of the greats in the press.

Betty Beale.

She called Betty Beale.

She's a little background.

That's right.

She's good.

And now you're going to take a picture.

I'm going to take a picture.

So I'll get into that some time.

Thank you.

And then, uh, she went on a trip.

Now, another thing, too, is, uh, talking about this story about, like, essentially, it was, you know, about, you know, she was going on a trip with Julie.

Yeah.

So, Julie leaves on her trip.

Christmas gets over.

Connie leaves.

On the basis that she's completing her work for the first time, she goes to a Christmas celebration.

And Julie comes back.

You have to be in awe of both of them.

And then after being on the line, he would wake up and then he'd say to Julia, stay calm.

See, and then there's no out-person shot.

Each time Julia could be doing some of this stuff.

Actually, what I'm saying is the thing is, it's all on here perfectly.

Our show is pretty good.

Helping out while he's gone.

Oh, I see no problem.

Yeah, the way we would do it is we'd work it out that way and then she'd work for them.

And then you get to the thing of who jumps the gun.

That's what I don't tell her.

Yeah.

That's what I don't tell her.

I don't think she's going to be able to do that.

The other thing I thought I wanted to tell you in this major race is that just so we can be happy to help any lady we can, however she wants to handle it.

However she wants to handle it.

Whether it's not the other or whatever she wants.

That's right.

No, I'm a part of the organization, so it's worth it.

It's worth it.

Okay, then I think I've got both of them.

I'm not discussing the truth.

I'm just not aware of the truth.

I'm supposed to be.

I'm trying to set a path, which I've never just ever heard of.

You've never heard of it, right?

It is the ideal time.

What are you saying about that?

I'm saying that Dr. Kissinger will return to Washington this evening for consultation.

He doesn't arrive until midnight.

We will not meet until midnight.

He arrives very late tonight.

Dr. Kissinger will return to Washington.

In the course of this exchange, both sides will decide jointly whether or not they want to meet again.

Meantime, the technical experts on both sides of the page discuss the details of the relationship with the parent.

The idea of the technical experts on both sides of the page is that they are on the same order when working on the side of the shot.

I hope to see him in the world soon.

This has been a great interview.

Well, gentlemen, this is all out of your hands.

No comment.

Go with someone on the other side of the line, gentlemen.

I understand, but I have nothing further to say.

We're talking.

Well, sir, you're going to be in another session.

Yes, sir.

And, uh, I raised that question, too.

I don't know, I called him yesterday, and I said, you know, that's a good, uh, bill.

What does it mean?

And he said, you know, he said, well, that's the other part of it.

What does it mean?

Uh, that was the implication, I suppose, of something.

I was wondering if you could say with regard to...

Yes, I did.

With regard to... With regard to... With regard to... With regard to... With regard to... With regard to... With regard to...

What does it mean?

They're going to be further meaning, but I don't know what word or comment.

I don't know comment.

It will remain as a special positive example of our message.

Mr. Gardner, you're in that position.

Mr. Gardner, you said you were in that position.

I like a little better weather and different lands over there.

I am sure you can see that.

I also knew that.

The rest of the story was straight on a fishing nest.

It's not all funny.

I thought that read.

Oh, it's funny.

I don't know.

Okay.

I don't know why they can't get that across to the military or who they're trying to instruct, but this was done.

I don't care who that is.

Somebody who's a political man.

I don't care if they say, this is Bill, Joe, this is Matt.

I'm very good with my mind.

That's all I'm supposed to do.

Chuck thought it was nice.

Chuck, let Chuck present to me.

That's Chuck.

Bill's Chuck.

That's right.

But just like you say, any political man is better than a military man.

A military man is fine.

It's not his fault.

But he didn't know it.

I also cried about it, and I got to think about who in the Christ made you so tired.

It's got to be a guy who says, we did a superb job for us in southern Ohio, giving out the largest percentage of the vote.

That's right.

You see, they can't figure that out.

They can't figure that out.

They don't study all that stuff.

And a little hard, but it's fine.

I thought it had been covered.

And they can't determine whether one or the other does it.

Democrats have one who's half and another's good and half.

I don't care.

It doesn't move around.

Whatever they want to do it.

What is tonight?

It doesn't matter.

Labor leaders, Democrats, Democrats.

It's clear to me that the hosts for tonight are both friends.

I don't think so, because he won't know myself.

And both of y'all go around as adults and you should pick a staff position.

That's right.

When Chuck can.

And that puts Chuck exactly in the role he wants.

You've got to introduce him to people and do them.

That's exactly.

It's symbolic, but it's a good thing.

And it sets that up.

They're trying to be honest

.

Some now are very good, most of them.

But I don't want to hurt you, but I think it's really about a house, yeah, with lots of wood, and it's also good for the time you live in.

It's good.

It's a good house.

It's amazing because it's like a house that's cool, but always too big.

There are some, but you don't want to sell them.

There are some smaller ones, yeah.

Because when we were looking, we laid down a good cattle field, and they showed us how we could actually plant those cows.

So I don't know.

There are some, and there are a lot within the space of the pool.

See, you've got to get a place that has a fair amount of land, otherwise you don't have the privacy.

You can't go into these close-in those places.

You just do the windows and they're all big.

There's some small ones out there.

There's some small places on big pieces of land.

Or adequate pieces of land.

You don't need 20 acres, but you need, you need a half an acre.

So people can look out their window and there's some running photographers that come in and get pictures of their own lands or something.

They had no idea.

He talked to one of our events now for the rest of the week.

Don't look at him.

I don't see that.

We have another reception tonight and another reception tomorrow.

That's Friday afternoon.

I do a big reception.

This is a big reception from 2.30 to 4.30.

Just straight ahead.

Take your parents and then they go out to the Christmas party for Christ's presence.

But we're through.

There's nothing happening.

I'm free Friday.

You're free Friday past 4.30.

But Saturday, there's nothing until we'll have dinner Saturday night.

So you can take off Friday.

Can't be able to go out for dinner until the next Saturday night's dinner.

Uh, we've got a cat dinner Saturday night and a church service Sunday morning.

And so, we've got the church service, but we've got to start with girls.

Girls want to be busy.

So, we give them the choice to cook, cook, cook, can't really get somebody in there for a Sunday.

So, cook is a good example.

Then, uh, church service is also, uh, the majority time.

Yes, sir.

And then, Monday,

There's nothing for you, but Mrs. Nixon has to put them out of children's consumption.

And Tuesday, they're going to meet with some surrogates.

And the next level of people are low on their last call.

Those are not just a big problem.

It's over.

White House reception.

Handle on your door.

Reception.

That's 2-3-1.

Tuesday, 19th.

And that's the end.

When you're done.

You're done.

The staff reception is...

The staff open house door is...

I had to camp.

Thursday, I let staff people come to work.

Strong, you know what I mean?

to get them to work their ass off, to get them into that business.

I don't want to hold down domestic counsel staff.

I don't want national security counsel staff.

I want them all to go to the other end.

See my point?

The others, the staff, family,

Right.

But I really kind of need to.

And then they do a quote.

You can't go after a quote.

That's not a good thing.

How are we going to do this?

Right.

No, it's not a good thing.

That's how we take care of Congress and people who have people who have to get their things done.

Yeah.

You know, glad we got A back here, but it's a real problem.

Yeah.

You should have talked to Harry.

I know you're excited about it.

He goes out and down.

I'm in the circumstances.

And I said, we can't watch him out there.

And I said, what is your, what is your alternative?

And they said, well, what is your alternative?

And I said, well, we could go forward and actually really sign the agreement in the back.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

We're just so tempted to go to the place and get some oxygen in or just get out.

The whole idea is to actually make that system better and better and do that today.

like, waiting at this point in time.

But on the other hand, that's what we're still trying to do is take this in the right direction.

I'm concerned about what the hell happened to South Vietnam.

We didn't want to lose the torch.

Today, I decide to kick two or three times.

This time, I'm going to go along with it.

If we say, you know, we interpret history in a way that we think we're going to get out of this goddamn... That's all right.

Harris told us the contrary, notwithstanding.

The American people don't want this war to go on another goddamn minute.

If they feel they're going to get our appeal, they'll get an amnesty spire.

And really, should they put a dam about whether or not there's a clause in regard to the sovereignty of South Vietnam over the chivalry of the people or the DNC or anything, that's all very important to the South Vietnamese.

But it's not important in terms of our American public opinion.

Al was aware of the fact that Hanlon was really out of control and this kind of contact at this point

A very good indication of Henry.

Henry now is looking at the negotiation where it is basically his baby.

And he's got to nurture the goddamned thing and that's his only concern about how he comes out.

In terms of how he's going to look in the way that happened in the negotiation.

And that's a very unhealthy thing in so far as what the goal of this country is at this point.

You agree or not?

Yes.

Just talking to this guy, and I go inside, and the whole thing was breaking, which had a goddamn set up.

And here we go again.

Here we go again.

Here's the most critical information.

It's just, you know, critical.

It's done what it is.

It's all important.

It's an interesting story.

This is a different story.

It's an interesting story.

And there it is.

I am...

I am convinced that, uh, I know, I know how it works.

And this is definitely

that Henry has gone on the track.

Weirdly enough, it would say that in terms of even any relationship in the future with the Asian and Russian countries, that his judgment is not going to be good.

And I think it's becoming very, very seriously impaired, don't you think?

But sure, my second question is whether, if that is over, you know, how do you deal with other things?

The other question that I read more angrily is if we really hunt down those vampires, whether it's going to be Potter, Al, or Schroeder.

If I do, I make him mad.

He's the only man that can have a job.

His career in the Army, yeah, he's going to do better.

What does he do?

the state and the entire nation of China, which I choose, which I approve in any condition, because you have to go to that part around the hell with the way they bring restaurants and everything.

But Al would be essential, and he really is.

There is nobody else that has that.

Because Al does have an understanding of foreign policy, too.

He understands my position.

He knows the bureaucracy and all that other stuff.

I remember when I was trying to reach Senator Mitch, he was gone, and he gave a message.

And I said, that's all I have to do.

And I said, well, he's the secretary, and we've missed a bus.

Yeah.

Well, I told him that I had tried to do it, but I reached the speaker, and he gave a message.

Yeah.

And I said, I just want to keep going, and I called this bus, and I said, yeah.

And I said, yeah.

With regard to Stenton, how does that count?

Yeah.

The only question I've got, if I regret it, I haven't discussed it with him.

See if he has any relationship with you.

I still haven't discussed it with him.

If he has no relationship with you, then I'll just have to give it to you.

I've got to give it to him.

In other words, I've got to give it to him.

I've got to give it to him.

And also, the price, the price,

hell getting Iran is he's got to cooperate against such a concern.

That's got to be laid to him by you or somebody.

Unless you're great.

They definitely need your help here.

But to get a control bus like this, you don't want somebody to put their hands on you.

I think that if you could get into that theme today, Bob, it would be very important to have started indicating, and Bob, you've got that, you know, the power of the institution.

If you're going to sign a contract for it, you want to make that a thing.

There are things that are bad if you don't promote somebody after 60.

Then you don't appoint him a guy for after 60.

Let's say he's age 25 and he's an ambassador and he was not reassigned.

After 90 days, he is automatically retired.

An ambassador who's called out and not reassigned within 90 days is automatically retired and loses his FSO.

Anybody...

of any rank at any station is at retirement age, at age 60.

60 is the retirement age on the point of service, except for those who have the rank of career ambassador.

The career ambassadors, they're retirement age 65, and they don't really have a manufacturer of that kind of name for a certain time.

Alex Johnson.

I think Alex, incidentally, should be used as an investor at large.

I think that's an integral deal that we may have to, you know, do something with.

There's too many things coming up here.

I don't want him to go with the telecom.

I don't want him to go side by side.

I don't want Sullivan to go with it.

I don't want Henry to go back to that.

But coming back to Henry, Bob, putting it candidly,

He had showed him too many signs of insuffordination.

That was a long time.

And he died.

And he can't talk to hell that way about this.

And I had to make this decision.

In the first instance, you know, when we came back on the field, now we can't go on television.

You know, and all that.

Do you remember?

Yes, sir.

Well, now, if he thinks about it, and he's going to agree that that's correct, and all of us will say that's good, and it's terrible, that's funny, and it wouldn't work.

Well, he agrees now.

He may not agree, but you know how Al is.

But Al cannot cross him.

You know, like a woman, you don't cross him at such a certain time.

But Al agreed that that couldn't work.

He did with me.

He said, I was absolutely right.

He said I was a flap that Henry was going through, and again, the position he took was right.

We couldn't do it.

And so it is now.

Like, for example, I said to Al, now look, as far as Henry's little thing, this idea that we'll increase the bombing, behold, the plane is paralyzed.

I said, Al, that's no goddamn signal of the norm.

You know, as I've told you this before, I said, we've bombed the whole 20th Paragon, so we increased the gun.

So they'll say, we've increased the bomb.

I said, we're going to do anything.

Not that we'll bomb the B-52s over the Hanoi-Hikon area.

I mean, that's the signal.

But you're going to be blamed either way, Bob.

They're going to say, we increased the bomb, right?

So I said, then I said, sir, for the military purpose, don't do any bombing.

Go over to the 20th Paragon.

Don't do it over the Army.

Why the hell are you going to do it for?

We've got a, Henry has got this, he sees everything in terms of minutiae, you know, the gradual escalation.

He talks about big plays now, and what you want to make, but he's not at this point, unfortunately.

I think this is a real problem.

It's a terrible psychological problem.

He is honest enough, I mean, or intelligent enough to know that he is the guy that worked ourselves into this goddamn corner by what he said before the election.

He said it in Christ's name.

I mean, he's the man.

You know now that we're in a situation where getting out of the corner

He's grasping for straws, how do we get out of the conflict?

Where's the person that should go on television?

And then he goes back to negotiate, and talks and talks and talks, and that doesn't work.

And then he says, call the ring, and he grabs that, and that doesn't work.

And now he says, well, maybe it's a question, but... Then he finally reaches a conclusion, and long after that, he says, I have one reason, either that or I feel the need...

realize we haven't published this slide on obvious material, you're not going to be able to recognize it.

Or if they have slides on it, filter it, remember after you have any questions, you have to filter it.

And that's why they said what we did with Dr. Stalin, who was Donald Trump, got back to the North.

But I said another nice thing, I'm going to say, that if the North were in transition, we would go ahead and get to the Congress we saw.

But you see, what you have here is a series of events

where, uh, our largest position is.

Extremely, uh, weak.

And whether I think the factory was done, I can't be too concerned about it, given that she looks gone.

We've got a problem going on on television.

They're saying everything's collapsed and they're planning to bomb it.

Sorry, is there a bunch of bombers ready?

They think you're bombing?

We're getting back to the point where you just help on the right direction.

I'm going to get him on the flight back and ask him to help with the sentencing, if he will.

And, but, I don't know if those things are necessary.

It may be.

I don't know who it is.

It probably should have been served here.

It may be, but it's not confirmable.

I don't know what the situation is right now.

I don't know what it is, but it's probably important.

All of these stories about confirmation, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for, about what they're looking for,

I think it's a question of Kennedy's...

Checking the public polls and not wanting to appear to be totally part of it.

I just wondered what he was trying to do here.

It was late.

The groundwork is late.

I thought, why are you?

Well, I hit all kinds of tests.

What are you doing?

What are you saying?

I didn't have any kids.

We're going to build a glass mile and a branch and a lot of branch and all that.

Congress will be rich.

This president has been selected by the people.

We're going to do a great job.

And then what happens?

He turns around and won't cooperate with us, won't spend the money we've appropriated on this terrible village who is lying, must be lying, breaking the law.

Well, in other words, he may set up that, you know, for a couple weeks now, lay it down on a basement with total cooperation, great admiration for you, so that he can then turn and say, here I went with the olive branch and everything else, and then what did he do?

I'm starting to start to feel nervous.

I think I'm going to put you up in my little boat.

I'm going to get sick and get sicker.

But I think we're handling it.

We are going to do it.

This is the drama.

I know that you need the possibility of getting it done.

When you really come down to it, when you really come down to it, it doesn't matter if you get it done.

It does matter.

I thought about the drama thing, and I know that, you know, we've had some drama, I mean, basically because of the hunger, and that's just, that got everybody all,

Now, the main thing is to do it, and then how it works is what's going to happen.

And then the build was on the later.

The difficulty was coming up with a big announcement.

It was like when we set up, you know, the movement.

I remember all of us were excited about setting up the reorganization of the department.

And I think that helped us with the shelves and all of that.

I remember that big story.

And the profiles didn't even cost anything.

I mean, it was a good one-day story.

Some of the drama's going to come two years from now.

If you look back at what happened during the first half of the second term, what happened?

What happened if we go ahead just right is a total change.

And the way the executive office works is a total change in the structure of all the cabinet departments.

There's all these people working in a totally different family.

And you get some of your stuff there, yeah.

What's going to be the reaction here to this question of a black son?

I see that's constantly being heard from you, to have a black son.

What do you mean, is there a black office?

Yeah, that's going to be some jurors in there.

I'm not going to meet with them.

I'm not going to be under that.

I want to be sure that the rest are pushed off of that position.

I don't know.

I'll see our own blacks.

I'll see it the whole life, Jordan, but I'm not going to meet with any goddamn blacks.

Some of it's a bunch of people laying down in demand, but I'm not going to meet with a black caucus.

That should be done by the liberals.

Don't you agree?

Yes, sir.

We cannot be in that position.

It is trying to get our blacks.

No.

We've got our blacks.

Our blacks might even say it.

You know, the brandy of the black sun.

And I was looking at the name of the building.

Sure, it doesn't help.

Remember when we went through that same thing?

They forgot we went through that.

I said, that's what I mean.

And they'd go out and even my man, they'd have pissed all over us at that.

And he said that was a terrible thing.

He said, now that is not going to happen again.

We were individuals.

And they had something to say to us.

Coming back to the Henry problem, I think we have to also recognize that he is an asshole.

He has a lot of emotional strength there, and he's terribly frustrated, terribly disappointed.

He thought he was going to have a certain test, but it was exactly what he thought he was going to have to do.

I thought it was going to be two days.

I remember when I left, he said it was going to be two days.

And it did not happen.

And he liked all that election information.

He thought it was wrong.

So therefore, he pressed me.

I mean, I've got to pretend as well as I can.

But on the other hand, I thought it was kind of a lie.

of, you know, well, we'll do this, we'll buy, we'll do this, we'll do that, we'll do that.

He's, I've taken his advice in many cases, and it's used in a lot of them, but he's got to realize it now.

He's got to realize it now.

making his passion, objective, recommendations, he's glaring them out, you know.

And he's both very hardcore and great, I'm sure of that.

Especially when you're in the industry.

But Henry is not only going to hold his care with his staff, now of course he's a brother there, but he's also going to be with me for the rest of my life.

And that's what we're going to do.

We know that now Henry is going to work on him like he's done with everybody else.

Thank you, Senator.

Yeah, I think so.

I'm not sure.

He believes that he's got a basic psychological problem that's turned him back and forth.

When he does, maybe it's good because he's had a short-term pain.

Rodgers must have been the first to make it.

He was the first to make it.

What do you agree with Ron?

He's one of the walkers.

He's got to go.

I'll totally agree with that, yeah.

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and talk back and forth and work something out, rather than say, all right, now what happens if this happens?

What happens if this happens?

What happens if he says this and what happens if he says this?

You've got to put the truth into it.

And what I'm interested in, if you take people within a believer and pray to the Lord, he looks at it as a challenge rather than a story where the conversation can get the tone.

He knows you're not challenging him or any other kind of problem.

Well, I always give him a table and just tell him on the phone that I have not approved this.

I just want to wait until he has a chance to talk to me.

You know, the wave bothers me quite a good thing.

It just sort of rocks me up.

People don't know about these guys.

They don't follow us.

that Henry had a son of a bitch.

That's the way it always comes out, you know.

It really isn't that.

It's not that to say that both that off and difficult.

I mean, it takes two of them to fight that guy.

And they killed him too, I'm sure.

So, but I think also it's just because they have a little, I don't know, Henry at this point.

You know, everything else he's got to him.

And that's why it's been rather good that he's been out of trouble.

He's been in a lot of trouble.

I'm going to go to his defense.

Some of the others are, you know, the ambassadors are going to arrest him.

And I'm going to get through as fast as we can to the reason.

I don't want to argue with anybody about these things.

No, but I think you did put it pretty good.

I always thought that it's bad that when I'm eight years old, I'm not going to be able to do this.

... ... ... ... ... ...

Okay.

Let me know.

Go right ahead.

I've heard about it.

What if it was not?

Where are you going to receive the guy?

Why don't we just... Oh, I don't care about how he's doing.

Let me see.

He better just do it over at Westman.

Where do you mean?

Right at the Oval Office?

Oh, at the Oval Office or something.

I don't mind, I don't mind.

But he does a diplomatic reception for that matter.

It's a big event for them.

If they want to do it, that's a rule.

You know what I mean?

Do it.

I mean, it's the time.

But get everybody that you can on the list.

I can do ten.

At least you've got to do six.

And I'll see, plus you're... You know, all of a sudden, Schultz will come in with Cohen, right?

He's like the leader of America.

Or if you have other thoughts, too, you can just go to Cohen.

Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Vietnam peace negotiations and Henry Kissinger

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on December 13, 1972

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