Nixon & Haig on Vietnam War and Paris Peace Accords

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It was a fairly long session, but it's good to get here.

It's a long way to go, and it's a long way to go.

You know, discussions and all those protocols that we should not have done before.

We should leave that to other people.

I don't know if this is true.

Henry, of course, came.

I know it is.

He just wants to do it.

He's already got a guy in front of the team, and that's not really good.

He's got to do it.

Yeah, he comes to the conclusion that they're going to leave this stuff.

There isn't a hell of a lot of really a difference left.

I mean, the difference is very important to Saigon, but I don't think there's about anything you can do to make Saigon want to agree to my name.

Yeah.

Oh, I see.

The way it's looking at the present time analysis occurs.

Henry was a candidate, apparently a candidate.

There's a problem with people who are not so well known.

That's what I'm saying.

yeah yeah yeah yeah

And they don't come.

They don't even come here.

You know, we've had this suffering and everything, you know, that's a harsh time.

And as we have heard, those big units are all very easy to get out of there.

They have 26, 36, they've left out their names in the Republic or something.

They don't do that anymore.

The other president has been telling me to stop talking to him, and I have told him.

In fact, I said the best way to put it is to disappear.

Totally.

He says he agrees with me, but he just doesn't want to solve me when these guys are mumbling.

But he should pay the calls.

Why didn't he step there for somebody?

And he just, and they're mumbling to him.

And he picks up the phone and answers himself, and he should never do that.

No exactly there, right?

Ever, ever, ever.

We only had 20-plus people in the last two days.

I had 20-plus people.

I had

Well, I've been reading all of that.

He's over that.

He's thinking down there.

Yeah.

I think he's getting here to where...

He will not follow the tactics of the negotiations that I've created.

I'm creating options.

I should just sort of go back.

Henry believes that in every negotiating session, you've got to go over the whole goddamn thing.

And make the whole record.

He believes that he's wrong on the streets and so forth.

And that's not the way to do it.

He just can't understand.

He's got something stripped on.

He doesn't know why.

He didn't come back to a fundamental point.

He didn't nail that.

He didn't nail out, you know.

He just...

And they're taking points, and so that's what's happening.

Long, torture speeches, and so forth.

The reason I sent over to the Senate, sent to him one time, I said, go through, in a very disarming way, six or seven fights.

I want to get him on the record.

He's never done that.

He's never gotten specifically on the record those six or seven things that I've impeached him on.

Well, he'll say it indirectly.

He can interpret it, and he can brief it, and say it.

I don't know how we're going to be able to do it.

The question is, the reaction.

Too little, too late.

You need to do something big.

Why fire around?

What is the level of running parallelism?

It's not one goddamn thing.

There's a lot of people out there.

Now you know that, too.

Now, I don't talk about that.

I mean, you're so...

I know some big things.

But you do some 18, 19 parallelism.

It's not a damn thing.

Nothing.

You know that.

We don't kid ourselves about things like that.

If he's thinking just like they did during the McNamara days, you know, where they'd get a bomb and actually target Johnson's victim, they thought that's going to have a hell of a psychological effect.

It's going to have a psychological effect.

And that has a psychological effect when they should do something very big and very different.

And these things are not big and different.

You see the minds.

I guess we've got to do that anyway.

That's better now.

That's obvious.

But on the bombing, you're either going to bomb or not bomb.

Well, of course, that would be done anyway.

But that doesn't mean anything.

It's just a matter of whether you're correct or not.

It's just a matter of who you are.

You're going to take just as much heat for not believing.

I'm stepping it up there.

I'm stepping it up even over where I know I am.

I just know.

I know what these things are.

How many times do I have to figure out what the problem is?

What we have here is what we've got over here.

What we need is an agency plan.

That's what we do.

What we can bring to the table.

Without it, I don't know.

We never really face that thing.

What can we bring up next?

We'll go ahead and go along how.

but what we do is what works out.

My judgment is that we shall accept the same issues that are very active in this report currently.

They would give us everything we've asked for if we cut off aid.

If we didn't cut off aid, I don't understand.

Now you may be able to negotiate certain aspects

That's under these circumstances.

Or if they raised it to respond, they didn't.

Because they need

us, and for that poor thing that we can't do for ourselves.

And I want to put a quote for that.

It's very clear.

I don't know if she's on it.

It has to be her.

Because they can't manage that again.

So for her, she's controlling some of our questions for herself.

She's never going to see it.

Unless she's done something for it.

And we have to take a negative side.

and they are obviously prepared to do something.

I think we should go ahead with a nice credit list trip.

And then we said to the crew that I should help out

I don't want to delay at all.

I'm more excited.

I'm sort of fortunate here someday.

That's why I wanted to do it.

Why did we have to do this?

I don't know.

24 hours ago, we decided to send in that bull over there.

It was just two bands.

They were live on the first.

And they'll be back tonight.

It's not a problem.

And we'll expect them back at about 7.30, 8 o'clock.

The rest of the day.

If this car goes beyond that, that's an emergency sound in 887.

It could be.

Because of the great ability to keep this on.

And what's going on in these other cars in these vast and strange areas.

We're going to have to call the cops.

Where are we staying?

I haven't talked to him.

He didn't get back on it.

I tried to get him to attend last night.

He went back to work.

He went to call the service.

I mentioned he dropped out of care.

He said that he was very attached to this guy.

I was embarrassed about it.

I thought it was embarrassing.

I looked at him.

I said, oh, yeah.

He's been very racist.

I don't like him 100%.

I don't know what to do with him.

I think that's a very subtle way to get across.

You were very low key.

I don't know about the vice president, but just wait.

We don't need to tell.

The hell with giving you all this money.

The vice president was not there.

She was not seen.

And that's all there is to it.

I want to think about it.

So, let's look at the options.

The options of, if he doesn't go, really is to

Now, we say, well, we'll make a separate page, right?

And that makes the question, is that right?

Can we do that?

We couldn't say, so when Henry puts that in, we can't get out of it in a row of curls.

Well, we'll go it alone.

That's like to say, well, we'll go it alone.

Exactly.

That would be the worst thing.

Yeah.

Now, I can tell them then, as I did, look, you've come along, or the hunters have brought your water.

Now, that's a credible thing.

That's a credible thing.

But you can't go on and say, well, if you don't do it, we're going to go alone.

I mean, and they'll say, well, they won't come.

That's their point.

What the hell are we going to do?

Now, we do fish very seriously.

The two is painting himself into a car.

I'll question you.

You've got that precedent.

You're just going to play that game now.

Look.

Let me tell you.

Henry, of course, will not understand.

Here he is again with the smiling picture.

He's smiling.

And he never, and he's never learned to not support you.

Back to your enemies.

There are enemies.

You should never smile in front of any of them.

Never, never, never.

God damn it.

It's a great piece.

Sure they smile.

Because it's all over the place.

It's like you can't swallow the canary.

And it has a very bad impression.

It sounds small, but it's... We've had four pictures like that already.

God damn it.

Every time.

I'm doing it.

Stop it.

Don't.

Keep calm.

Smile.

When it ends, it's... Now those things are great, great, great things.

They set the tone of the whole thing.

The other thing is that Henry's...

He comes back here.

somebody the hell out of public communication somewhere where he does not talk about their calls and their mosbars and all the things they'll always summon around and he'll think it's because they admire him so much not that he's a sucker for their community they're usually meant to have him you see all the smiles and all the optimistic things that have been coming out of Paris

Part of it is very close.

Kevin doesn't realize this.

I know he can't get it, but he'll see it when I tell him.

You know, for the purpose of making us look good.

They are for the purpose of putting you in a yellow spot.

It's almost as if the caucuses sat down with the rest of the rest and said, look, play this if everything is done.

Play this if we've got an agreement.

Now, so here we are.

We've got a sign.

That's what they're making it appear like.

Everybody's expecting the rest.

and Jude will be the one that blocks it.

There's no way we can do it.

Henry's kicked it out of the one television, and I'll explain to the whole world that, oh no, all these reports were wrong, and that obviously the communists were the ones that did this, and it will not work.

There is no way you can make that sale, not today.

Because, frankly, there's no way you can make it, because Henry's name is in the report, too.

positive statements, cops and police, you know, and so forth.

There's only one difference.

They divide into the right and the wrong.

Do you understand now what he's done?

You know, we can't kid ourselves that we're in one hell of a corner on this one.

We're not in a corner where we either make peace or make it on any terms and then do what we want to break the terms.

Or we're going to be forced to

and open praise to Jesus.

And open praise, of course, open praise.

I was not listening.

I was listening.

the word sovereignty or then, or whether or not they were administrators then, or whether or not they were directors, and you know what I mean, all these things.

We know where it's going.

You know, we know that what is really involved here is that Jim wants the principal to recognize that he has sovereignty over all of South Vietnam, and that our people need to have the right to have it.

Fair enough.

It ought to be recognized.

And we should say so, you know, in our place.

We should say so, you know, if it doesn't work out, we can do it.

He should have been on the side of the agreement that says he shouldn't have said anything else.

But you understand that at this present time, you cannot, you cannot let this agreement break down because it's about things like that.

It won't work.

Do you agree?

You see my point?

Can you imagine me explaining that to the legislature?

Can you imagine Henry explaining it to the press?

Can you explain it for a while

I think we're in a hell of a spot.

I don't think we're in a hell of a spot in what we can do now entirely.

I don't know what we're doing in the event that they give us provocation.

But what we now have to do is to make a deal.

They give the provocation.

Right now, we now are in a position where you can't go on and say,

They provoked it because they wouldn't agree to this attitude to Reverend Nash, or this word rather than that word, or this phrase rather than that phrase.

It will not work.

There's our problem.

And all of this whole movement that had been created by the smiling pictures, by the leaks to Scotty Russell, and these singular false participants in this town, they came directly to me and said,

Well now, what's your judgment as to where we stand?

The way we got there, and the way we decided on the Vice President is talking about that.

What the hell?

What the hell did you see there?

It was just simply a meeting or a rebuttal.

And then what?

The beauty of that is that it means you get the vice president on the side of the hawks, coming out with the responsibility to tell the hawks to do something, but you've got to be tough with what they're going to do.

We can't push.

Unfortunately, we cannot.

That's my purpose.

That's my point.

And we better push it to that point.

See what I'm saying?

Do you use the big bulletin?

And then he says no.

And what do we say?

What's Agnew say?

What's he going to tell him?

Well, I'm sorry, Mr. President, but the Congress now is going to be very rough.

And that's what he's going to come up with.

Or he's going to say we're going to make a deal and we're going to come along.

In other words, I don't know what Agnew would say.

We have these many differences in the world.

We have fought, we have presented our position.

Some we've gotten, some we've rejected.

And we feel that these remaining outstanding issues, if Illinois comes forward, we're going to accept them.

Now, it's quite important that we know that this church, which we're doing is passing through whatever way it can.

Because if you don't, then we're going to have to look for another one.

That's about all I can say.

First, I agree with you.

I think there's more movement there than Henry.

Henry is, he goes from the heights of balance, you know, and has never stood in the beard because of that.

And my judgment at the present time is considered to be better than we had thought.

I agree.

I think since they're in the snow, and they're going to settle, and in fact, they have a backboard,

If we...

If we send him over there...

But tell me what you see to your advantage over them.

I can't, other than you're doing them, I'm not quite at that level.

I agree, I have the idea.

Well, my advantage is that if we're happy, the person who's next to you... That's from the right wing.

That's from the right wing.

The man knows that, really, and that's the main junction, of course, after the parents.

Let me tell you the one problem.

There's one thing I'm sure of.

There's a leak.

We've got there.

There's a leak probably in person.

We've tried all the tubes off.

that they know every goddamn thing we've told them.

And that's one of the main reasons.

That's all.

Henry footsteps, number two.

I put it as number one.

So I think that's what's the best.

I think they're infiltrated.

I think they know.

And that's why when I had to tell Doug those things, he had to be told.

We know damn well what went right back to Tom.

And that gives them a reason to wait.

That's why I've passed that message on to Henry in order to use where I said a few of their patches.

I now believe I can get them up in the conference room.

I sent that audio to him so that he could try to back off of that position.

And it's going to be tough.

What I mean is he's got to let them think we can do something else.

That's why Henry's a little pissy ass.

I think he's got to know for sure he gets it on the plane.

But I consider the military plan totally inadequate.

It's better to do nothing rather than take actions so obviously ineffective.

I mean, the only actions that I will approve, I'll approve the receding of the mine.

And that goes forward immediately.

I want that guy to go far around so that tomorrow, that's the only remediation for a definition.

I don't want to ask for a case about that sort of thing anymore.

Order the mine to recede.

right now, you know, just as soon as you, unless you get a message, just as soon as you hear that Henry's on the way back to the mine, they're being reseated immediately.

They have to be reseated.

Reconnaissance, of course, they have their reconnaissance in the north.

They have all their reconnaissance in the north.

They have all their reconnaissance in the north

receive the mines and the rest of it.

Because if we bomb now, I doubt we're going to be able to increase the bombing other than to have a headline of the effective massive bombing of North Vietnam.

People don't let it happen.

We're going to hit something that's worthwhile.

No more bombing.

No increase in bombing except for military purposes.

So forget the bombing thing.

The only tactic that I will consider on that is to strike.

And tell Henry that the plans are already available for the three-day strike.

or we're short of them.

That's the option I think.

If we go with any, we can go with bomb.

But the re-sealing must go on anyway because we've got to have the mine.

The re-consuls must go forward.

We're carrying the wave toward the mine of the north.

But as far as doing a pitiful step of a bombing south of the 20th parallel, forget it.

We've done that before and it doesn't work.

It really doesn't.

You see, it doesn't do it.

It's a, it's a, it's almost an intro.

Now, with regard to that, you know, you see, with sending that over here, we've got to assume everything that he says has gotten at me has gone right back into my mind.

I wonder if there's a better way to prove it.

Well, I got a bunker check, and he came in, and he said, you know, he lost money.

If he's going to come, then the vice president would be great.

If he's going to fight it and not come along, it would be a mistake, which is true.

Well, that's just the very question.

Well, I think we have to decide.

That's what that is.

Are Rogers going to live?

I have to guess that Rogers is going to live.

I don't know.

He said we could do it.

The same thing you said, which we believe, and that is after this agreement was made.

But before I adjust, we'll be very, very comfortable.

And that's true.

That's right.

That's why that word gets back to his mother.

Roger's telling him enough to know what his evil uncle said to the word.

He will do it to the word.

I don't know.

Well, Bunker's new then, and he created his work, but it won't be as long.

The one thing is, we cannot send Megan over there, and then Bob after he's there, because that would look like he'd be the two, and that's the way it would be for Bob, for Christ's sake, but it's not going to happen.

It's going to be a clever case.

That's a problem I'm concerned about.

We cannot...

to reduce our leverage with the North.

We need leverage with the North to get something there.

The way I look at it, sir, is that if we decide we're going to have to get rid of you, then that should be done before the present day will arise at some point.

So, you don't want to think

We wrote back a message which we gave to Jim.

On the other hand, there is a terrible problem with Jim.

And the matter of this is that we gave him some lead time to help him get back and take off.

Because that will only add an emotional problem to what's already in his mind.

Can't we wait for the night?

I think we better wait for the night.

Whenever Henry gets in, however late it is, I'll be available.

We'll just sit down and make this judgment.

Let's take our time.

We'll try to be sure to take our time out.

Don't give away any other bad documents.

Now this is the same problem with pressure over here.

I see that.

I saw that.

It's very clear.

They're just sitting back, sitting all of a sudden.

And I am, too.

That he would want to send Agnew out and, you know, Henry always says, they must not choose those words.

They must not say, it's the way it's going to be.

And, you know, it's a very simple thing.

It's got to be done in a quiet way.

and it's huge, and it's tough to deal with.

And then my husband, that's the thing, you know, that we don't really have a dad that we do because he stays tough in real life.

That's where the scenario breaks down.

He goes, he stays tough.

And we have no one, nothing to offer.

We say, all right, man, you want to agree, but I wasn't here, or something like that.

You know, we've got to figure out what the back of the positions are without telling anyone.

Anyway, it's a very good day.

but if they just talk about that so no I won't sign unless this is done we know we can't do that then we return and then we say alright wow so we're having the very plan that we have that we would then sign the agreement ourselves right we would then sign

that we have consummated what we think it will be.

Fair and just so.

And we now call upon the South to sign.

Call upon the South.

And if they don't, then it doesn't come to this day and age.

Now that's going to generate the absolute maximum pressure on you in which you can't go and publicly reject it.

Yeah, we're in the same situation.

Or say, actually, yes, it says, oh, I'm doing this piece.

I don't like it.

I'll live by it, but that's all.

Or some combination that I'm silent, but I'll abide by it.

And then they, you know, I'm going to agree because it's just not safe.

And it's messy.

Yeah.

That's what I mean.

If they're girls, they're worse than kids.

But I think that we'll be able to go.

You know, it's always a possibility that they're emotionally silent.

Yeah.

And like, I'm scared that they're silent.

Yeah.

They're worse than kids.

They have to be absent, though.

They don't kill them.

That's what we're talking about.

I don't know.

What do you think?

I don't know.

Now, he got...

There was no clause in anything yesterday when he gave that speech, which was a lot of time.

The analysis is really... Yeah, it wasn't as tough.

I was staying in the parking lot, but I don't know whether the jurors, the jurors do.

Is that just states?

No, I think it's not even because they're very carefully ordered to avoid the jury.

I think he wanted to share with them what the evidence was.

It was National Center of Defense.

As far as stepping up with a bombing in the south, I don't approve it.

We're not going to step up with a goddamn bombing in the south and screw around and drop a lot more bombs.

and so forth.

No reason to.

There's not going to be any signal at all.

We're already bombing them.

We're already, oh, God damn it, we're bombing them.

So what was he going to do?

How many times have we knocked out Ben?

It wasn't worth it.

It's going to the right person.

I mean, it's going to the right person.

I mean, let's not fool ourselves about what we're doing.

We're going to get something over in Laos and we're going to get something.

God damn it.

It's the worst, God damn right person.

It's the worst person.

that's what we call on the mind and totally inadequate.

If we're going to do anything, we're going to do something.

We're going to pay a cost for doing something.

Let's make it worth the cost.

That's all.

So that's what we're going to do.

In the meantime, I think we'll go to the side.

After he and I talk, he and you and I talk tonight.

And I'd also like, as I said,

I think in other words, we've got to be prepared

It's also so easy to know where it's going to break.

I mean, it's so easy for people to say, hey, break.

I'm not saying, what the hell are you doing next?

You know, he's even, you know, gave out a whole egg in the story to the press already.

You know, that's all.

I would never have done that.

And then the first day of the meeting, he told us, told us about it.

He told us about it.

I wasn't quite sure that any of you were there for some reason.

Until that night, we were going to send an egg to go out and bring it back to Carol Brown.

They didn't say anything.

I don't think they said anything.

because the issue today is the incentive to have an end about the procrastination and settle it with the ex-president waiting to prepare.

Well, anyway, it won't do any good, but I guess there's nobody else who can see it, and I don't want to get messy, but when I expect, whenever you have any quiet moments, you're killing yourself with the press.

Just don't.

He really is.

He's killing himself.

He doesn't realize it.

He's killing himself.

He's becoming too personal.

You know, he's trying to do a... Well, the press is using this to build up not only the usual thing, but the state and the White House.

You know, they don't realize it.

It's how it appears to be and how it's controlled.

It's a...

He'll become a whole life as an eroding fissure and become a common fissure overnight.

That's what happens.

That sort of thing.

It'll go like wildfire.

That'll kill it.

Henry would have a...

They're narrow.

That's the way to press in.

They take that aggravation and that high rise to a certain point and then they're waiting.

And then they won't cover it.

We ought to make that system a personal thing.

Oh, yes.

Okay, good luck.

Nixon & Haig on Vietnam War and Paris Peace Accords

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Also recorded on December 13, 1972

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