Conversation 385-030

TapeTape 385StartWednesday, December 13, 1972 at 10:54 AMEndWednesday, December 13, 1972 at 11:21 AMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob");  White House operator;  Eisenhower, Julie NixonRecording deviceOld Executive Office Building

On December 13, 1972, President Richard M. Nixon, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, White House operator, and Julie Nixon Eisenhower met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 10:54 am and 11:21 am. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 385-030 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 385-30

Date: December 13, 1972
Time: Unknown between 10:54 am and 11:21 am
Location: Executive Office Building

The President met with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman.

       Second term reorganization
             -Anne L. Armstrong
                     -Conversation with Haldeman
                            -Timing
                                    -Armstrong’s meeting with the President
                     -Robert H. Finch
                     -Conversation with Frederic V. Malek
                     -ACTION
                            -Director
                     -Protocol
                            -Texas
                            -Compared to agency appointment
                                    -Management
                            -Visibility
                                    -ACTION
                                    -White House
                            -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
                                     -49-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                 (rev. July-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 385-30 (cont’d)

                     -Travel
                              -Foreign policy
       -[European Economic Community]
               -James D. Hodgson
                      -Jew [Joseph A. Greenwald]
                              -Departure
       -State Department Passport Office
               -Frances G. Knight
                      -Departure
                              -William P. Rogers
                              -Malek
       -Ambassadorship to South Vietnam
               -Graham A. Martin
                      -Rogers’s view
                      -Back channel
                      -Call from Henry A. Kissinger
                      -Rogers

The President’s schedule
       -Possible meeting with Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
              -Trip to the Middle East
              -Presidential appointments
       -Meeting with Armstrong
       -Meeting with Jackson

Second term reorganization
      -State Department
              -Frank C. Carlucci
                     -Lt. Gen. Vernon A. Walters
                     -Position on Communist issue
      -Internal Revenue Service [IRS]
              -George Webster
                     -Tax bar
                     -John H. Alexander
                             -Letter
                             -John N. Mitchell
                                     -Tax matters
                     -Confirmation
                             -Tax bar
                             -Webster’s conversations
                                      -50-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                 (rev. July-08)

                                                      Conversation No. 385-30 (cont’d)

                                    -George P. Shultz
                                    -Tax Department
                             -Tax bar
                      -Approval
                      -Charles W. Colson
                      -Alexander
                             -Note
                             -Tax reform
                             -Mudge, Rose, Guthrie and Alexander
                      -Johnnie M. Walters
                      -Support

The President’s schedule
       -Meeting with Shultz
              -Taxes
              -Edwin S. Cohen
              -Webster
                     -Cohen

Public relations [PR]
        -Shultz
                -The President’s possible conversation with John D. Ehrlichman
                -Economic affairs
                -Ronald L. Ziegler
                       -Conversation with Shultz
                -Remarks on economic stabilization and federal spending
                       -Budget ceiling
                       -Press relations
                               -Wire reports
                               -Radio
                -John B. Connally

The President’s schedule
       -Acceptance of diplomatic credentials and portfolios
              -Kissinger
              -Rogers
              -[December 19, 1972]
                     -Laos
              -Ecuador
              -Bulgaria
                                      -51-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                 (rev. July-08)

                                                      Conversation No. 385-30 (cont’d)

              -Panama
              -Greece
              -Sudan
              -Ecuador
                     -Threat to recall ambassador
              -Receiving line
              -Changes
              -Post-1973 Inauguration
                     -Yemen
                     -Guyana
                     -Iceland
                     -Paraguay
                     -Sweden
                     -Bangladesh
                     -Iran

Second term reorganization
      -Philip V. Sanchez
              -Ambassadorship to Mexico
              -South American countries
              -Background
                     -Business
              -Mexican-Americans
      -President’s Science Advisory Committee [PSAC]
      -The President’s schedule
              -Christmas
              -1973 Inauguration
      -Executive Office of the President
      -Assistant Secretaries
              -PR
      -Reception for 1972 election supporters
              -Agency for International Development [AID]
                     -Dan Parker
                             -Dr. John A. Hannah
              -Republican National Committee [RNC]
                     -Chuck Ross
                             -RNC Chairman in Ohio
                             -Background
                                     -Law
                             -Interest in full-time position
                                             -52-

                 NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                      (rev. July-08)

                                                           Conversation No. 385-30 (cont’d)

                                  -Cabinet

*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

                                         -George H. W. Bush
                                         -Age

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************

      Second term reorganization
            -Parker
            -IRS
                    -Webster’s confirmation
                           -Tax bar
                           -Alexander
                           -Shultz
                           -Mitchell
                                   -Webster’s role
                                          -Chairman of Lawyers for Nixon
                                          -Politics
                           -Establishment
            -Rose Mary Woods
                    -Submission of unknown item
                           -The President’s reaction
            -Julie Nixon Eisenhower
                    -Haldeman’s efforts
                    -Meeting with Haldeman
                           -East Wing
                    -Conversation with the President
                           -Ziegler’s possible conversation with Mrs. Nixon
                                   -Job description

      PR
             -East Wing
                    -Christmas decorations
                           -1971
                                              -53-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                         (rev. July-08)

                                                               Conversation No. 385-30 (cont’d)

                                     -East Room
                              -TV show
                                     -Constance M. (Cornell) (“Connie”) Stuart
                                             -Press relations
                                                     -Ziegler
               -Dwight L. Chapin
               -Julie Nixon Eisenhower
                       -East Wing
                              -PR
                       -Conversation with the President or Haldeman
                       -Ziegler

The President talked with the White House operator at an unknown time between 10:54 am and
11:19 am.

[Conversation No. 385-30A]

[See Conversation No. 34-59]

       Second term reorganization
             -Julie Nixon Eisenhower
                     -Stuart
                             -Departure
                                    -Announcement
                                             -Timing
                                                     -Christmas
                                                            -First Family’s social season
                     -Announcement
                             -Assistant to the First Lady
                                    -Title
                                    -Salary

*****************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

       House
               -Julie Nixon Eisenhower
                       -Charles G. (“Bebe”) Rebozo
                                             -54-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                       (rev. July-08)

                                                            Conversation No. 385-30 (cont’d)

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
*****************************************************************

       [Dwight] David Eisenhower, II’s departure from the Navy
             -Report
             -Career
                    -Congressional relations

       Adm. Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr.
             -Statements
                    -Navy
                          -Racial tensions
                                 -Blacks

The President talked with Julie Nixon Eisenhower between 11:19 am and 11:21 am.

[Conversation No. 385-30B]

[See Conversation No. 34-60]

[The recording was cut off at an unknown time before 11:21 am.]

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

What is she doing?
Well, I'm going to talk to her before she sees you.
And I'll let you know before she comes in and just take a nap.
One other thing, she's talked about the change of view in which she is born into.
I think protocol is much better.
She started running an agency, and she's now a manager.
And she's just a hell of a good-natured person.
Put her neck, put her throat in the lock, and then see.
The more she burps out, the much more visible in the sense of the woman out in front of her.
Right.
She gets an X.
She doesn't even get the White House.
Check on her.
Very rare.
She doesn't even get the White House.
She's here all the time.
She doesn't even get the White House.
She sees the greatest mighty of the world.
Is that a problem with math?
Is it something that ought to be held?
She's a third person.
Don't do it.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, that would be my opinion.
That's what I want to put in here.
If she'll take any full-time job, that's a better full-time job for her and for us than anything else.
It is a meaningful job for her brain and visibility.
You're right.
How she can travel around the ocean is about the President's point.
What has happened on the ocean?
I don't know.
I'm sure they know that I just wanted you out of that office over there.
I know that's why they dragged me into D1.
They're all boring.
I want him out of that office.
You can talk to him just to take it out.
Yeah, he's cooperating.
What he wanted, he could have settled.
He says that Grant Martin doesn't want him.
So he's not going to discuss it with him.
But he wants to take credit for it.
But I think that's not where he's going to go.
Back to him.
If he wanted there, well, he's getting out of it.
So he should have told Henry to call Martin.
You never know what Roger has done.
He said, I don't think you ought to pay your grandma.
I'd like to give her this and that.
Steve Jackson apparently is called to the question of the meeting.
He's recording the meetings today.
What else do they have on today?
I have drums at 3 o'clock.
Okay.
taking the water to the other side.
So we're going around and around gas stations.
The water, yeah, I can see how much it's taking from the left.
That's pretty much what's up.
That is down to the left on the other side.
That's where we're going.
That's where we're going.
The lid always goes to the left in this position.
George Webster is apparently going to run into trouble with the tax party, which we expected, but also with John Alexander's question here.
I was John Alexander one day, and I didn't think he would, but I saw him for a letter recommending that he wanted to have Mitchell
Locked Alexander up and say Webster is the man.
Webster is the man and Webster agrees with us on all the tax matters.
I've got to have my old man in that position.
The question is because the tax party is going to have a confirmation.
or other kind of stuff.
I don't know.
They're starting to get sick about it.
The problem is he, after Shelton, don't say anything in the wake of the impact.
He went out and talked to the guy in the tax department about wanting to move him over to the IRS and told the tax lawyers he was going to take the IRS.
So he is not a totally fine guy.
And that has gotten the tax department stirred up.
And there is now opposition starting to mobilize.
Very close to the problem.
But John Alexander, God damn, he's an old man.
And, you know, he's got a problem with everything.
He's got a factory barn.
He's got everything else.
He's a nice fellow and everything.
But that's all done now.
I'm through with it.
I'm through with the burn.
I'm through with it forever.
I mean, I paid my call.
I paid my dues.
I've done everything I can for him.
From now on, we're going our own way here.
We'll get some scoop in there.
If you're like Walter, you'll get scurred like hell if I didn't hire him.
You know, you're fighting for this.
I'd like to do it.
I'm sure you'll get a very good demo.
Better be sure to get some sort of backing off.
Shelton's got a scene for a few minutes.
All right, all right.
We'll talk about contacts and stuff.
I'm there.
All right, all right.
This is major.
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
But you just tell Schultz that so he's not going to be ready.
I've made the decision on that.
And so he's not going to be ready for my proper call.
I'm going to stay in today.
I'm sure you have a lot of time in your life when you're wondering about this story.
You always know what it's like, but it results in that economic pushback.
Right?
Because it doesn't.
You don't know how to get across the story.
You don't know how to get it out.
It's a...
I got sicker and I said, go over and sit here and say, well, hiya.
So again, he doesn't come on in a dramatic, he doesn't come on and say, we have reached you the $250,000 section that's in the
Well, it's part of it.
And I would stand up for all of our guys to wear those tents, because you've got to realize, Sheldon's a weak breed, and he's not presenting anything to the public.
He's a hell of a weak breed.
So we have to go around him so much, and that's why he's a great show.
And he's a great show.
We have a very heavy load of pressure from both Kissinger and Rogers.
You see on the third appeal that you can accept diplomatic credentials from both of those.
We have some thing for two months that involves Ecuador and Bulgaria, and Panama and Greece, and Sudan.
And Ecuador is getting into a big thing where they're now threatening to fall in class three.
Do you guys have any words?
I think because of the fish in the sea.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That's what we were dealing with.
You always, you try to make it so nice for me when we overdo things.
I don't still have that much time.
I don't do them.
I do them very fast, but I just don't like doing them at all.
I love little practice like that.
It's a big issue.
It changes a lot.
I'm going to hit 37.
Now that cleans him up.
There's six more to go.
You know, it's never cleaned.
There's seven more coming.
Put them all in.
The investors aren't here yet, but they... We have Agamon.
Damon, Deanna, Iceman, Caracol, Ice Queen, Vancouver, Desjardins.
Well, you know what, that's the last thing I'm going to do.
They're here to beat us, you know.
But they can't.
There's no problem with those.
Bill Sanchez, you're talking about considering for Mexico anything.
I didn't want a Mexican in some position.
The suggestion is we do it like one of the other South American countries.
He doesn't have the bonds.
I don't do them.
But it's likely to help us be goddamn sure he's a Mexican before we find him.
Yeah.
But you know... Yeah.
Okay, I got you.
I'll just come up to you.
Okay.
That's not...
I'm tired.
Well, we've got the whole...
I think you've got to sit down Bob very soon and get it over with.
I can see Christmas running down over here and I can see also I've got to get to work on the batting inaugural and I've got to get some time off for it and I think everything's going to be great because we'll all want to go away.
Well, I'd like to wrap up most of this stuff.
I've got a bunch of stuff that I want to talk about.
Sure.
And I also want to talk about the instruction executive office.
I'm going to step out and collapse it.
I'm not going to do it.
I ought to get that done.
Sure.
And then the government process, I'm the assistant secretary.
Right.
I'm going to go through the process.
I'm not going to do it.
I'm not.
Two people last night.
He wants to do something, and I don't know about his job, but he wants to do something that I need to do.
Very interesting.
You know, he'd be all right to take that hand in his place.
He'd be willing to offer it for the other one in Ross.
I'm not sure.
I don't know.
I didn't know what he was going to do.
He's a good man.
He's one of the better chairmen.
He wants to become a bulldog.
He would be a good guy.
He was one of the ones being considered as a national chairman.
He's a great political operator.
He's a good woman.
I haven't had these guns since I was 38.
It's around that 38, 48, and then that 35, 45, right?
Like if I don't know how to do it, I'm rather comfortable with it.
That would very well be a shell game being played by the sisters who are in the cash bar.
And they all put their own men in there and play their own games.
And they don't want to fund themselves by just loving that job.
And then if you want something, you have to say, I want somebody else I can love, and I don't want to.
And I will not fuck with John Alexander for the whole time.
Well, you could say he didn't qualify.
He was the chairman of lawyers for Nixon.
I know.
You're establishing what the people in the state of Michigan are about.
You've got a fight going your way.
When I saw that thing, I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know what it was.
I didn't know what it was.
Should I do it anymore?
Well, I have to say, I told her last night, the last time I went
It's not that they do that Christmas stuff so well.
Last year, it was very popular.
But this year, it's Christmas of all.
At some point, they're going to have our children.
I don't know what makes a big difference.
She's not a reactor.
She's not a creator.
She's not a planner.
She is, but I don't think she's that.
I think she has in terms of TV.
That's what I think.
She's a sleeper, I think, would have thought of that.
I had a long, I'll talk to her about it.
Yes, it can be very strong for doing this thing.
It's showing what it can go.
It's all a problem.
So, uh, .
.
.
.
.
.
.
after Christmas and then Connie announced her departure right after Christmas and said she stayed through the Christmas holiday season and she had to leave the end of the term because she obviously wanted to stay with her family and socials, which is very important.
Just leave it at that.
We won't announce Judith.
It's good that Julie's gone.
Maybe Julie didn't ever announce this.
I would.
I'd say that.
Not as press secretary, but as assistant to the First Lady or
That's what it ought to be.
The taxpayer has to have the title of your right in order to come in.
Because otherwise, people are not going to give you the right advice that you can under the rules of the right of your plans.
And that's consistent with the first lady.
It's a regular staff job because it's a member of sovereignty.
It's up here at the present time on this very special day.
I just want to find out.
We don't want to.
If we're thinking of a congressional plan, even if it's out next
Then we'll just pull the out of the car and then everybody else is going to just bring you back here in a special capacity.
I don't think a lot of us are going to waste another year parking around the decks of the office.
It's awful.
It's awful.
It's awful.
It's awful.
It's awful.
It's awful.
Are you over at the house?
Oh, sure.
Go back.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, let me ask you, are you, are you, are you, no, no, are you worth talking about?
Fine.
Well, as a matter of fact, I should talk to you about that here.