Conversation 394-003

TapeTape 394StartFriday, January 5, 1973 at 12:02 PMEndFriday, January 5, 1973 at 12:36 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Colson, Charles W.;  Holm, Holly;  Sanchez, ManoloRecording deviceOld Executive Office Building

On January 5, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, Holly Holm, and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at an unknown time between 12:02 pm and 12:36 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 394-003 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 394-3

Date: January 5, 1973
Time: Unknown between 12:02 pm and 12:36 pm
Location: Executive Office Building

The President met with Charles W. Colson.

       Vietnam negotiations
            -Press relations
                  -Television [TV] news coverage
                         -Columbia Broadcasting System [CBS]
                                -Congress
                                      -“End-the-war fulminations”
                                -Balance
                                      -John G. Tower
                                      -Robert J. Dole
            -US bombing North of 20th Parallel
                  -Hospital
                         -W. Ramsey Clark
            -John F. Kennedy
                  -Bay of Pigs
                         -Colson’s office
            -Press relations
                  -Congressional relations
                         -Colson’s recent conversation with John A. Scali
                                -Scali’s conversations
                         -[North Vietnam]
                         -James Roosevelt
                                -Democrats
                                -Samuel Rayburn
                                      -Dwight D. Eisenhower
                                            -Foreign policy
                         -Scali
                         -The President’s recent bipartisan leadership meeting
                         -Colson’s possible role
                         -The President’s bipartisan leadership meeting
                                -Foreign policy
                         -Ronald L. Ziegler
                  -Rowland Evans and Robert D. Novak
                                 -4-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          (rev. Sept.-08)

                                                  Conversation No. 394-3 (cont’d)

           -Public opinion
                  -US bombing north of the 20th Parallel
-US bombing north of 20th Parallel
     -The President’s bipartisan leadership meeting
     -Purpose
           -Statements by the President and Kissinger
           -Time
-Congressional relations
     -The President’s bipartisan leadership meeting
           -The President’s May 8, 1972 decision
           -October 8, 1972 agreement
           -Cessation of US bombing north of 20th Parallel
           -November 1972
                  -North Vietnam’s military tactics
           -Resumption of talks
                  -Tone
                        -Cessation of US bombing north of 20th Parallel
                             -Haiphong, Hanoi
                             -Duration
           -Prisoners of War [POWS]
           -US withdrawal
           -Cease-fire
           -Public opinion
     -William E. Timmons
           -Personality
     -Clark MacGregor
     -Colson’s conversation with H.R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
           -Attack line
                  -Barry M. Goldwater
                        -Charge [against Democrats]
-US withdrawal
-POWs
-The President’s objectives
     -Peace
     -Cease-fire
     -Cambodia, Laos, Indochina
     -Compared to opponents’ objective
           -US
           -Southeast Asia, world
           -Idealism
                                       -5-

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                (rev. Sept.-08)

                                                       Conversation No. 394-3 (cont’d)

                 -Cease-fire
                 -Morality

White House staff
     -Congressional relations
          -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew’s view
                 -Timmons
                 -The President’s role
                 -The President’s conversation with Haldeman
     -Need for meeting
          -1972 election
     -Workload
     -Second term reorganization
          -Colson’s work with John D. Ehrlichman
          -New Majority

Second term reorganization
     -The President’s schedule
           -Roy L. Ash
           -Dr. Edward E. David, Jr.
     -Colson’s schedule
           -1972 election
           -Meeting with Roosevelt

Watergate
     -E. Howard Hunt, Jr.
           -Possible plea
           -Colson’s meeting with Ehrlichman
           -Colson’s role
           -Conversations with the US Attorney
           -Colson’s role
                 -Contacts with [William O. Bittman]
                 -US Attorney
                       -Hunt’s cooperation
                 -Hunt’s loss of [Dorothy Hunt]
     -Jeb Stuart Magruder
           -Haldeman
     -Howard Hunt
           -Family
                 -Dorothy Hunt
                                 -6-

      NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                          (rev. Sept.-08)

                                                  Conversation No. 394-3 (cont’d)

            -Children
      -Possible clemency
            -Jail sentence
                   -Duration
            -Justification
                   -Howard Hunt’s family
                         -Dorothy Hunt
                         -Children
            -Timing
                   -Christmas
            -Justification
                   -Howard Hunt’s family
            -Colson’s involvement
                   -Deniability
-Roles
      -John N. Mitchell
      -Magruder
-Haldeman
-John W. Dean, III
      -Knowledge
-The President's knowledge
-Motives
      -Plan to disrupt Republican National Convention
-Howard Hunt
      -Possible clemency
            -Justification
            -Timing
                   -Burglars
                         -Cubans
                               -Central Intelligence Agency [CIA]
            -Colson’s involvement
                   -Deniability
            -Justification
                   -Howard Hunt’s family
                         -Colson’s conversation [with William O. Bittman]
                         -The President’s awareness
            -Timing
                   -Christmas
            -Howard Hunt’s finances
                   -Taxes
                                       -7-

            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                (rev. Sept.-08)

                                                        Conversation No. 394-3 (cont’d)

                      -Bittman
                 -Colson’s efforts

Congressional relations
     -Attitudes
           -The President’s conversation with Colson
     -Democrats
           -Division
                 -1972 election
     -Republicans
           -Attitude
           -Leadership
                 -Hugh Scott
                 -The President’s meeting with Haldeman
           -Senators
                 -Leadership
                        -Scott
                 -Charles H. Percy
                        -The President’s meeting with Henry A. Kissinger
                        -Recent trip
                               -Report
                                     -Meeting with Kissinger
                                           -Timing
                                                 -Christmas 1972
                                           -Effect
                                                 -“Hawks”
                                           -Colson’s conversation with Kissinger
                                                 -Tone
                        -Conversation with Kissinger
                               -Vietnam negotiations
                                     -Success
                                     -Anti-Ballistic Missiles
                                     -Judges
     -Vietnam negotiations
           -Future
                 -The President’s view
                        -The President’s bipartisan leadership meeting

Vietnam negotiations
     -Kissinger’s “peace is at hand” comment, October 26, 1972
                                              -8-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                       (rev. Sept.-08)

                                                               Conversation No. 394-3 (cont’d)

                  -Effect
                        -1972 election
                        -Public relations [PR]
                  -Success or failure
                        -The President’s responsibility
                              -Congressional relations
                                     -The President’s bipartisan leadership meeting
                                           -John A. Scali
             -North Vietnam infiltration
                  -Timing
                        -Central Intelligence Agency [CIA] reports
                              -Scali
                  -Buildup
                        -Lyndon B. Johnson [?]
                        -Colson’s conversation with an unknown person
                        -Kissinger
                        -Publicity
                              -Leaks
                        -US bombing north of 20th Parallel
                              -Justification
                                     -Possible North Vietnam offensive

       The President’s schedule
            -Bipartisan leadership meeting
                  -Remarks

Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 12:02 pm.

       -Refreshment
             -Consumme

Sanchez left at an unknown time before 12:36 pm.

Colson talked with Holly Holm at an unknown time between 12:02 pm and 12:36 pm.

[Conversation No. 394-3A]

[See Conversation No. 35-91]

[End of telephone conversation]
                                             -9-

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                       (rev. Sept.-08)

                                                            Conversation No. 394-3 (cont’d)

       Watergate
            -U.S. Attorney [Harold H. Titus, Jr.]
                  -[Earl J. Silbert]
                        -Background
                               -Justice Department
                                      -1964
                                      -1970
                        -Career
                               -Success, failure
                        -Titus
                               -Reappointment
            -Burglars
                  -Plea
                        -Congressional relations
                               -Immunization
                               -Lying
            -The President’s current meeting with Colson
                  -Colson’s relationship with Haldeman and Ehrlichman
                  -Colson’s conversation with DeVan L. Shumway
            -Ehrlichman
            -Mitchell
            -Perjury
            -Congressional relations

       Congressional relations
            -Timmons
                  -Telephone call from Colson

Colson left at an unknown time before 12:36 pm.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I don't even know what came up with it.
Maybe it's a program for change.
I'm sure it's all part of those things.
This is what we want.
We've got to double the time.
We've got to get on with it.
We've got to work on it.
We've got to get back.
But at least we're going to get a balance with the power of the building.
And it's excellent.
Those are three on the benefits of it.
What does that mean, Jeff?
It says about the new Ramsey car.
It says that it's increasing funds for the hospital.
I wasn't from this town.
He had got me making his business up the next day.
I'm sure many of the first people to get out this morning will assume that the Congress is demanding an examination of this subject.
And also the mind of the Congress is actually looking at the fact that there are a few other questions that they can address.
They all have something to do with it.
It's not asking for it.
The only question I have is,
They're very, very close to friends.
You know, the person who posted the post to them kind of says, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them, you know, the person who posted the post to them,
I mean, at least now, the current generation of Amazon is the same.
It's very global.
Well, we have to.
That's telling you that I'm very confident that we're going to be able to do it.
We're going to be able to do it.
It's fine.
In my view, we just have to stay where we are and take the new way of life.
I'm very confident that we're going to do it.
We're going to do it.
Thank you.
You've got to work very hard.
You've got to work hard.
You've got to work hard.
You've got to work hard.
You've got to work hard.
Well, I handled it this morning.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But, I mean, nobody from the Christian works.
I mean, they're better than all of us, you know.
I never felt like me, but I'll say, when they reach power, they have a certain amount of respect.
And nobody from Christian can come along and say, you know,
And their opinion is exactly like that of the American people.
They don't let you go to one country.
They don't let you go to one country.
And you can go to one country.
You can go to one country.
You can go to one country.
Well, what I did is smart.
I know.
I
.
.
.
.
I'm going to come back and do all the service.
And I said, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
I want you to listen to me.
I'm going to have to subscribe every morning.
I'm going to have to subscribe every morning.
I'm going to have to subscribe every morning.
I'm going to have to subscribe every morning.
You don't tell it to the patients.
You don't tell it to people.
You don't tell it to people.
I actually got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
I got a problem with my hair.
We don't want to hear from them about this.
This is such a big issue.
We're going to tackle that.
We don't want to hear from them about this.
This is such a big issue.
We don't want to hear from them about this.
They are for peace for the United States.
We are for peace.
We are for peace in Southeast Asia and in the long term in the world.
They are just waiting on it.
My idea was saying, oh yeah, we are going to try to do it.
Okay.
Okay.
We should have our, rather than me just having to carry them on the boat, we should have somebody in there to step on these things.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
That is the question.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think there's a lot of time on the line.
We're going to have to wait another week.
We're going to have to wait another week.
12 p.m., right?
Last night, I didn't really know what was going on.
So I got up and saw some people in the area tonight.
And I felt like I did this very good.
So I'm going to vote.
And this guy wasn't really effective.
And Jimmy goes, well, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to say, you know,
Okay, so
And, and, I would not trust him.
I would not tell him to come back.
Dan would be afraid, because he wants to know.
We've got to use him every second of the month.
You know what I'm saying?
You know, I don't understand.
I don't, I don't.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
I don't understand.
So, why do you have such a good, you know, similar compliance with the employer?
And you should rely on people.
You should not work with them.
You can't work with them.
So, here we go.
Here we go.
All right.
I'm going to let you listen to this.
Explain what we can do to help people stay home.
I was going to go, I don't know.
I don't know what I'm supposed to say.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
I'm just going to go ahead and do this.
Thank you.
I'm sorry, we have to go right now.
I'm going to throw the deck, and then we'll just go.
I'm going to throw the deck.
I'm going to throw the deck.
I'm going to throw the deck.
That's more important than...
... ... ... ... ...
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Don't you?
I was afraid to stay out of the discussion for a while because I was thinking about it and I was thinking about it a bit more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking about it more and I was thinking
That's what I sense.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.
I don't know.
I got it.
I got it.
I got it.
I got it.
I got it.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
Apart from anything else, in one of your personal rounds, it doesn't matter.
I didn't mean to throw it at one case.
When the other was not expected at the same time, they just went and watched it happen.
They just left it up there.
Apparently, the little was in good spirits.
He was in good spirits.
And he said, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Thank you.
Well, I think that was an universal tragedy, just when the president's record was respected.
Well, it was quite a tragedy.
Well, I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
I don't know what I'm going to do with it.
As far as Republicans are concerned, they basically say Mr. Trump is our master.
And, uh, somebody's leaving.
That's our problem.
They might have to leave.
They might have to leave.
Somebody else gets their leave.
So you've got that.
It's an iron problem.
It's a horrible thing.
They all, they all come in to me and say, well, that's, uh, that's a shock.
It's real quick.
They have a, they can be accomplished with this time and so forth.
But it's not all about this one.
All of them understand this.
That is what I'm saying.
It's a, it's a problem.
It's a problem.
It's a terrible thing.
I like that for example.
I don't have any intentions to send you down the line.
I don't have any intentions to send you down the line.
I'm such a human being, and I'm, you know, I'm pushing this, you know, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good, and it's good.
Yes, the Navy is doing it.
They're not negotiating.
They're not negotiating with us.
They're doing it in a different way.
You know, when I said this morning, I said, I am a good job.
I'm a good professor.
I'm a good professor.
I'm a good professor.
I remember calling out, one of the most local governments in the city had a vote.
I had a vote in the election.
I heard of the election.
So, you know, Christians destroyed the great, elite, grand election.
And the vote, the vote didn't work.
It didn't work as much as it should have.
So, I'm very close to saying that that's not the end of everything.
I don't know what the plan is, you know.
I don't know.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Take up your questions.
You've got to stand there like a man.
Take up your questions.
You've got to stand there like a man.
Take up your questions.
You've got to stand there like a man.
We've got a motion to vote.
All right.
We've got a motion to vote.
All right.
We've got a motion to vote.
You've got a mic.
You've got a microphone.
You've got a microphone.
You've got a microphone.
You've got a microphone.
You've got a microphone.
You've got a microphone.
You've got a microphone.
Yes sir, shall we?
Now, nobody can speak to us as attorneys or a man.
We're not going to get into that kind of stuff.
All right.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I mean, I was looking at this.
by what they've been doing on the ground.
On the ground it's being cremated, you know.
And that cremation is being cremated once you let the body go.
And that's another sentence.
And that's another sentence.
And that's another sentence.
And that's another sentence.
Or just not on my phone.
It's not on my phone.
Not at all.
Whatever you have.
I'll see you then.
Okay.
I think the important thing is for them to monitor their emotions.
But I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
Well, my reason, I haven't discussed it with anyone.
Well, my reason is very simple.
I said to him last night, before I made the presentation, that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to make sure that I was going to
I can't ever make water come back up.
Go fast now.
Go fast.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Perfect.
Perfect.
I'm going to go ahead and throw this in.
I'm going to go ahead and throw this in.
I'm going to go ahead and throw this in.
I'm going to throw this in.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.