Conversation 409-020

TapeTape 409StartThursday, February 8, 1973 at 1:50 PMEndThursday, February 8, 1973 at 2:15 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Colson, Charles W.;  [Unknown person(s)];  Howard, W. RickRecording deviceOld Executive Office Building

On February 8, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Charles W. Colson, unknown person(s), and W. Richard Howard met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 1:50 pm to 2:15 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 409-020 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 409-20

Date: February 8, 1973
Time: 1:50 pm - 2:15 pm
Location: Executive Office Building

The President met with Charles W. Colson.

       Colson's appearance on National Broadcasting Corporation [NBC]
              -Questions
                      -Watergate
                              -Washington Post story
                      -Colson's response
                              -Refusal
                              -Deposition
                              -Counselor’s advice
              -Amnesty for Vietnam War era draft dodgers
                      -Colson's response
                              -Vindication
              -Bill Monroe
              -Press relations
                      -Openness
                      -Monroe
                              -The President’s sensitivity to criticism of Vietnam War policy
                                           - 32 -

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                         (rev. Aug.-09)
                                                              Conversation No. 409-20 (cont’d)

                                     -Colson’s response
                                     -Richard (“Dick”) Wilson’s column
                                     -Scorn

       Amnesty
             -Newspaper stories
                   -Moral education
             -Abraham Lincoln's policy
                   -Civil War compared to Vietnam War
             -Monroe

       Polls
               -Request for 1971, 1972 Presidential approval ratings
                     -Gallup
                     -Oval Office

Colson talked with an unknown person at an unknown time between 1:50 pm and 2:15 pm.

[Conversation No. 409-20B]

[See Conversation No. 43-54]

Colson talked with Richard Howard at an unknown time between 1:50 and 2:15 pm.

[Conversation No. 409-20B]

[See Conversation No. 43-55]

[End of telephone conversation]

       Second term reorganization
             -Treasury Department
                     -The President’s conversation with George P. Shultz
                            -George D. Webster
                                   -The President’s conversation with Colson [?]
                                    - 33 -

           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                 (rev. Aug.-09)
                                                        Conversation No. 409-20 (cont’d)

                               -Internal Revenue Service [IRS]
       -Labor Department
               -Peter J. Brennan
                       -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                       -Staffing, appointments
                       -Public appearance
                       -Staffing
                               -Frederic V. Malek
                               -Haldeman
                               -Shultz
                               -Donald F. Rodgers
                                       -Cornell University degree
                                       -Shultz
                               -Competence
                               -Congress
                       -Railroad strike
                               -Brennan’s schedule
                               -Bureaucracy
                                       -Security
       -Staffing of Labor and Treasury Departments
               -Haldeman, Ehrlichman
               -Shultz
                       -Use of Under Secretaries
                       -IRS Commissioner
                               -Webster
                               -Lee H. Henkel, Jr.
                                       -Chief Counsel of IRS
                               -Richard F. Larsen [?]
                               -Loyalty
                               -Shultz’s preferences
                                       -Webster
                               -Chief Counsel of IRS

Watergate investigation
      -Senate
                                           - 34 -

                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                                        (rev. Aug.-09)
                                                              Conversation No. 409-20 (cont’d)

               -Hugh Scott
               -Extent of Senate investigation
                      -1968 election
                      -Campaign practices
                             -San Francisco action against the President's campaign
                                     -Paid rioters

**********************************************************************
[Begin segment reviewed under deed of gift]

       John B. Connally
              -Party registration
                      -Texas
                      -Vice President Spiro T. Agnew
                      -Charles H. Percy
                      -Nelson A. Rockefeller
                      -Charisma

[End segment reviewed under deed of gift]
**********************************************************************

Colson left at 2:15 pm.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

How was your program today?
Well, I enjoyed it.
I appreciate it.
Well, they got a new warning tape, which was easy.
They simply wanted to know if the story of the post was true this morning, or if it was to answer a question as to whether or not the standing
And I said, well, that's an example of a bad idea.
And then we had to deal with the press.
And as the Commissioner said, I refused to answer.
What they did say was that there were six pages in the deposition.
The lawyers are in control of their own.
It's a question that my counsel instructed me not to answer.
But when I first read the answer, I noted that I had never seen any confidential information.
And it gave me a great opportunity to talk about the vindication of the most rapture that was ensued.
Moral vindication.
Moral vindication.
And if it were like that, it would be a design to have the Christ to serve.
45,000 Christ to give their lives.
And then when Roe, Will Monroe, after this question, was sitting there going, how do you fight this?
But he asked about the media relations, and I said, I'd rather that we had perhaps the healthiest relations in the world.
Of any administration in the history of the 200 years, the government, the president, and the city, we're the first line of students, and we often work with the talk of the town.
And instead of
I didn't consider intimidation to be the end of the discussion.
I had a real mind, and I looked at it in a good way.
We were sensitive to criticism on the war, in terms of the war.
I didn't care.
I was just talking about your courage and wisdom, talking you through the honor of it.
So, despite all of the grit, I didn't prove to be wrong.
You were right.
I didn't think it was appropriate for us to have that moment.
He didn't like that.
He didn't give him the other thing.
He didn't give him the description.
I don't know.
Well, they are sensitive, you know, on that fact.
I know that Dick Wilson, that's what he's calling it.
There's a copy.
They are terribly sensitive about the fact that they have another standard.
They have to adapt to what the world is like.
I'm close to that.
I'm close to that.
I'm one of the masters of regular track.
I sit down 100 years as a part of the group that's subjected to so strong, so vicious, and so vicious criticism.
And all the time, just quietly, and patiently, and courageously, I sought the solution.
I realized that one of the people who did play that could be done.
That's kind of how it works out.
That's what they do with the enabler.
But our role after the disarray is to ask for an answer.
You wonder why you need to use that answer more often.
It's an intimidation.
It's an intimidation to do things and not do them.
When you're able to find that, the relationship becomes compressed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's a damn good issue for us.
Damn good every day.
I said, so how have you got that out of the leader?
We've got a very good paper with the captain.
We've done a series of this paper and this paper.
One of the, I don't know, it's hard for people to understand the difference.
Like, this was not a civil war for us.
Like, it was giving amnesty to the enemy.
It was giving amnesty to his friends.
It was an enemy that...
But we had to rejoin the crisis.
It wasn't a threat to civil war.
So we had to .
He didn't get mad at us because his own army was concerned.
Shot him.
Shot him.
And also, the army that served the president, they wanted to come back.
They didn't even hear that.
Well, I don't think he was.
I don't think he was.
I don't think he was.
I wonder if you could call your office.
I have to leave at 3 o'clock.
I'd like for them to put the Gallup food, which I had the first 19, 16, 17, I want to skip the 71st, 72nd.
It's month by month.
You see, it's the Gallup food, the food.
I was 71, I was 72.
I was supposed to go to high school.
And, uh, we did that with my parents.
I didn't know what to do all along, so I thought I'd go to high school.
I thought I'd go to study, I thought I'd go to parents, so I thought I'd go to that, because I'd make it my crisis, and I thought I'd go to high school.
And I went ahead to parents, and I went to high school.
.
.
.
.
.
They put it on my shoe and picked one shoe that they were just going to start in January and that was it.
One.
And I went through every time that went from this to that one.
I think Joanne and some of us did a project together.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
I did.
The Webster question came up, and I said, look, when I, uh, talked to him, he was talking about, he was talking about, he was talking about, you know, it was a mess, and we kind of, we were telling him that.
But he said, um, we would want to, we were just wondering about the whole occasion, and there were so many reports that were written.
But why don't you and me have a talk about this, and then I'll talk to you about it later.
And I remember, in general, that's the business.
I just want to be sure that what I'm talking really about is about being a very possible system to get this box filled.
So that he can get the hell out of the public.
And that sort of department is well run.
And apparently, granted, I'm part of your fellowship, Pastor.
Mr. Michelle is one of my favorites.
And I'll give advice about some of the spots that I've got to respond to.
It's got a cool swing.
And the whole thing, however, I reach over to, you know, I reach like, you know, the whole response to the message.
There was a good dance with the people.
I'll present a couple of objections to one question and one other, which is whether or not I've grabbed it.
You can correct someone else, basically.
I have a question for all of you.
I was going to be worried about breaking that leg, so we could sort of, you know, give me some help.
And I thought, you know, it was very distressing, so I didn't listen to a lot of people.
So that's why I didn't do it.
You know, I wanted to do it in a great time, but I didn't do it.
So it was a terrible question.
Put Claire's on the ballot, by the way.
It's a very challenging time.
It's a very challenging time.
It's a very challenging time.
Yeah.
But I don't feel it.
We push it with shots.
Bam, he's got one man.
I've been trying to agree with it, and I just didn't catch it, but I didn't know anything about it.
I think I had one absolutely dependable guy that carried on without me, and that's what I wanted.
Without him, I would not have been fully reliable.
You know, carry out these things with a friend, a degree of love.
You can think Roger.
He's a good picker.
Oh, excellent.
That's good.
That's a good judge.
Now, he's a very unreliable person.
We, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we,
difficult, complicated arrest.
We're trying to just leave it the way it is.
We're supporting this, and we should clear it up.
And, uh, but, uh, we've got to do it, and we have to support it.
We've got to do it, and some of the things we're doing are kind of prepared, so it's definitely the Congress and the rest of the guys who are doing it.
Yeah, because this river is spreading its head right now, and we're doing lessons, and we've got to do all the language, and I can't do that, and I have some, I'm sure we've got a choice to make.
There's a lot of this work on the shelf.
I don't want to beat him too hard.
Oh, and I would name him.
I would name him quite often.
But he's got to sleep.
I don't want him to sleep.
And, uh, there's a few ways.
It's always a good call to invite him in.
It's always a good call to invite him in.
It doesn't make a difference.
It doesn't make a difference.
The point is that he's got to get this approved.
And, uh, I can handle choices, but I don't know what he's going to do.
I've seen years and seasons that I've worked on.
George is kind of, when he's concerned, I've worked on a good reason to do it.
I've been kind of aware of it.
And, yeah, I've been forced to do it.
And, you know, George is a pretty good human being.
He took this fall over to this other side.
Decided to, of course, go behind the clock.
And, uh, George is a really
Well, because after all, that just shows his trademark.
He had a little something about it.
You know, Schultz has always brought up Webster as a boy, but he hasn't.
He doesn't think Webster is respected by the bar.
Right now, Schultz is the best man, he's the best story I've ever seen.
I.R.S.
and his brother, Nick Nichol, the Chief Counsel there.
So I don't think I'm going to push what I want to do.
Michael doesn't want to judge, so I got to do it.
But I said, who was the best man to judge?
And so I was the best man to judge.
And Michael was very sure to judge me.
I was very sure to judge him.
I understand everything.
I don't know that I'm lying.
I'm not lying.
I'm not lying.
I'm not lying.
I'm not lying.
I'm not lying.
I'm not lying.
I'm not lying.
Well, we don't know where.
Well, maybe at least Billy's the first one.
I know he's the one.
I don't know about you.
I don't know if I was right or wrong.
Asked George about it.
I told George that I would like to do that.
I said, I expect to be head of the SDR, and I've never had one of those.
That's why I left it.
We don't have to do it, because that's how I'm going to do it.
I like to do it, because it is what it is.
I've heard it's changing, I've read the story, but it would pay to defend themselves possibly.
The word probably isn't bad, but that's the reason for it.
Gary may not want that, he doesn't want it, but I think it's a good thing that he wants to do it.
I mean, no, no, no, Gary, Joseph may not want that, but that's the reason for it.
I mean, he's suspicious of the president, but whatever the plan, what's really going on with that is good.
It's really amazing that we get to go to the Iowa because of Chief Counsel of the Iowa.
So that's why we got to handle it with Chief Counsel.
You know, one of the things that's interesting is that it's such a great place to play, and I'm a life artist in Texas.
I think that it's very, very helpful to us, and everyone else in the community, because we can have a chance to do that.
I don't know.
That's exactly where, uh, in this investigation, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh,
I guess what I was trying to do is make this a beautiful chapter, and so I thought, at all of these points, we've got a great foundation for perception and discernment, and we, you know, this is the source for the music, the source for the gambler, and we're going to do it all.
Okay, yeah.
I'm going to go back to what I was talking about.
Yeah.
I mean, they're cool.
I'm going to go back to what I was talking about.
And he said...
He said, I'm counting on you to show some respect for me.
It occurred to me that one very clever way to do it was to quietly change the registration and say, I accept a invitation from everybody to do a good wrestling.
And I would put up and say, I'm all for it.
Just without any obstacles, I'm all for it.
I suppose that I would have been proud of myself for not having to fight for it.
And I don't know if I could have just had it here,
He's trying to figure that, but he wants to do it just that way, but he isn't going to do it.
Thank you.