Nixon White House Tapes › Tape 415 › Conversation 415-010

Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Vietnam War and POWs

Tuesday, February 27, 1973 · 9:30 AM–10:20 AM ET · Old Executive Office Building · 46 min

ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President); Kissinger, Henry A.; White House operator; Ziegler, Ronald L.Conversation415-010 on Tape 415StartTuesday, February 27, 1973 at 9:30 AMEndTuesday, February 27, 1973 at 10:20 AMRecording deviceOld Executive Office BuildingSourceNixon Library record for 415-010 ↗ · National Archives Catalog, NAID 417187271 ↗

President Nixon met with Henry Kissinger and Ronald Ziegler to manage the fallout from the Vietnam cease-fire agreement, focusing specifically on North Vietnam's delays in releasing prisoners of war (POWs) and potential violations of the treaty. The participants discussed strategies for public communications, including the timing of press conferences and statements regarding the administration's firm stance on North Vietnamese compliance. Additionally, they reviewed press relations, expressed frustration with negative media coverage, and touched upon ongoing concerns related to the Watergate investigation and the legal maneuvering of the Committee to Re-elect the President.

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On February 27, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, White House operator, and Ronald L. Ziegler met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 9:30 am to 10:20 am. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 415-010 of the White House Tapes.

Conversation No. 415-10

Date: February 27, 1973
Time: 9:30 am-10:20 am
Location: Executive Office Building

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger.
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Statement [?]
      -North Vietnam [?]
       -Kissinger’s talk with Elliot L. Richardson
               -Richardson’s reaction
       -Lt. Col. Bui Tin
       -Civilian, military prisoners of war [POWs]

Vietnam cease-fire agreement
      -North Vietnam
              -Civilian POWs
              -Negotiations
              -South Vietnam
                      -Release
      -Scheduled POW release and troop withdrawal
              -List of prisoners
                      -Announcement
      -Delays
              -Transportation
              -Arrangement for a plane
      -Joint Military Commission
              -Lt. Col. Bui Tin
                      -Hanoi
                      -Statement
      -Ellsworth F. Bunker
              -Analysis of military commission
                      -Improved accommodations
                      -Saigon [?]
      -Nguyen Van Thieu
              -President’s announcement
              -Thieu’s visit to the US
              -Civilian and military prisoners
                      -Civilians released in South Vietnam
                      -Status according to cease-fire agreement
      -Announcement
Show the rest of the log (331 more lines)
      -North Vietnam’s goals
              -International recognition
      -Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR], People’s Republic of China [PRC]
              -Conflict with US
      -President’s statement for press
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                     -Postponement
                     -Ronald L. Ziegler
                             -Statement
                     -North Vietnam’s position
                     -Questions
                             -Aid compared with POWs
              -Tenor of statement

The President talked with the White House operator at 9:43 am.

[Conversation No. 415-10A]

[See Conversation No. 43-204]

[End of telephone conversation]

       President’s statement
              -Advisability
              -Impact on North Vietnam
              -Timing
                       -William P. Rogers
                              -Paris
              -North Vietnam’s statements
              -Minesweep
                       -Message to North Vietnam
                              -Escalation
                              -Public compared with private message
                              -Instructions to Rogers
                              -Kissinger
                              -Reaction of North Vietnam
                              -US withdrawals

       North Vietnam’s infiltration
              -South Vietnam
              -Cease-fire agreement
                     -Violations
                     -Rearmament
              -Laos
              -Preparation for offensive
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                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

              -US aid
                     -South Vietnam
                     -Kissinger’s viewpoint
                            -Timing
                            -Outcome of offensive [?]

Ronald L. Ziegler entered at an unknown time after 9:43 am.

       President’s press conference
              -Postponement
              -POWs
              -Mining [?]
              -Ziegler’s statement
                      -Text

       Private message to North Vietnam
               -Troop withdrawals, minesweep
                      -Possible halt
               -Ziegler’s statement
                      -Timing
               -William H. Sullivan
                      -Kissinger’s cables
                      -Briefing questions

       Ziegler’s press briefing
              -Press relations [?]
              -State Secretary [?]
              -Conference [?]
              -Delay
              -POWs
              -Background information
                      -Release of civilian prisoners in South Vietnam
                      -Cease-fire negotiations
                              -October 1972
                              -Civilian compared with military POWs
                              -US position
                              -South Vietnam delegations

       President’s press conference
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               -Impact and timing
               -Possible response
               -Clark R. Mollenhoff

       Press relations
               -Ziegler’s briefing
                       -Questions
                       -Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty [SALT] II
                       -Memorandums
               -Sullivan, Richardson

Kissinger left at 9:58 am.

       News summary
             -Press attack on POWs
                     -Orchestration
                            -New York Times [?]
                            -News magazines and wire services
                                    -United Press International [UPI]
                            -Ziegler’s view

       Vietnam settlement
             -Possible administration action
                     -Bombing
                             -Effectiveness
                     -Paris talks
                             -Ho Chi Minh
                             -Nguyen Thi Binh
                             -USSR, PRC
                     -POWs
                             -Delay
                             -North Vietnam
                             -US public opinion
                             -Military action
             -Nguyen Van Thieu
                     -Criticism
                     -Robert J. McCloskey
                     -Cease-fire violations
                             -Linkage to POWs, withdrawals
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                            -Compared to US compliance to terms
       -Laos and Cambodia
              -Linkage to POW release
       -Thieu
              -McCloskey’s statement
                     -Cease-fire violations
                     -Ziegler’s position
       -Sample response to press question by Ziegler

Watergate
      -Maurice H. Stans’s lawyers
              -Subpoenas
                     -Journalists
                            -Katherine L. Graham
                            -Carl Bernstein
                            -Robert U. (“Bob”) Woodward
      -Libel case
      -Shield law
              -Problems

Committee to Re-elect the President [CRP]’s libel case
     -Ziegler’s handling of issue
     -Shield law
             -Attorney General
             -Criminal compared to civil actions
             -State compared to federal cases
             -Caldwell case in US Superior Court
                     -Black Panthers
                     -Court testimony
     -John W. Dean, III
             -Research on law

Senate Foreign Relations Committee

Watergate
      -Ziegler’s statements to the press
      -President’s remarks
             -Frederick C. LaRue [?]
      -Mollenhoff
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            NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

       -Cover up
              -Advantage

Ziegler’s press statement
       -Ziegler’s manner
       -POWs
               -Release on schedule
               -Bui Tin’s statement
                       -Unofficial capacity
               -US position
       -Proposed handling
       -POWs
               -Stories

News summary
      -Negativity
             -POWs
             -Time essay on morality of war

Press relations
        -Two levels
                -White House press corps
                        -Concerns regarding Vietnam
                               -Morality
                        -Martin Z. Agronsky
                -Personalities
                        -Weaknesses
                -Attitude of superior morality

George P. Shultz-John T. Dunlop controversy
      -George Meany
              -Reservations about Phase II and Phase III wage-price action
                     -Inflation
                             -Goal
                             -Wage settlements

Press relations
        -Issue of morality
                -Robert F. (“Bobby”) Kennedy
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           NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

                       -Moral leadership
               -Vietnam
               -Other issues
       -Attacks on President
       -President’s statement
               -Divisions in country
                       -Vietnam
                       -Other issues
                       -Budget
                       -Role of government
                       -Role of Press
                       -Cessation of debates about war
       -Press conference
               -Purpose

War
       -Newsworthiness
       -Divisiveness

Budget cuts
      -Severity
      -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
              -Howard J. Phillips [?], James Keogh
              -Speech
                     -Political philosophy

Vietnam settlement
      -Rhetoric
              -Escalation
              -Message to North Vietnam
                     -Kissinger
                     -Tone
                     -Mining
                     -US public opinion
              -Statements by Ziegler, Rogers
              -Statement by President
                     -Private
                     -Ultimatum
              -Mining
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             NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

         -Terms
               -Withdrawal
               -POWs
               -Cease-fire by US
               -Removal of mines
                      -POWs release
         -Message to North Vietnam

Budget
         -Increases
                 -Compared to cuts
         -Harris poll
                 -Liberal bias
                 -Division of opinion
                 -Vietnam
                         -Context of questions
                 -Tax increases
                         -Deficit
                 -Aid to cities, poor

News summaries
      -Two sections
              -Emphasis on columnists compared with wire services, networks
              -Appendix for columnists
                      -Kevin P. Phillips, Hobart Rowen, Carl T. Rowan
      -Need for balance
      -Washington Post, New York Times
      -Separation of news from opinion
              -Television [TV]
      -Editorials
              -Percentage of readers
              -Front, sports, finance, society pages
              -Thomas Grey (“Tom”) Wicker, Richard (“Dick”) Wilson
              -James B. (“Scotty”) Reston
      -Newspaper
              -Circulation
      -Time, Newsweek
              -Readership
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                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

       POWs
               -North Vietnam
               -Possible delay, stonewalling
                      -US reaction
                      -Bombing

       President’s trip to Philadelphia
              -Thelma C. (“Pat”) Nixon
              -Atlantic City
                       -Speech
              -POW issue
                       -Speech
                               -Teachers [?]
              -Changes of plans

       President’s schedule
              -Press conference

       Ziegler’s statement
              -Concern over agreement                 -Expectation of compliance

Ziegler left at 10:20 am.

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Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We'll be right back.
They have fully put themselves behind.
Thank you.
Why did you say we should have had something like that?
It wasn't 28, 50 days after that.
... ... ... ... ...
Today is our day of last night here.
We are headed to North Middletown.
I know I say it straight, but I have to say it.
It's in a little bacon form today, but essentially that is what we are going to do.
So now, this is from Parker.
This is from Parker.
We don't want to have that in office
But he's dead.
... ... ...
All right.
The revolution has begun.
I would be surprised if it went south by the end of the day.
Maybe it would save the government.
I mean, if we refuse to proceed with the fight.
Thank you.
Let me ask you
I don't know.
I don't care if they don't get it today, then I'll do it tomorrow.
But if you're doing things today, I'm assuming now.
Doesn't that make any difference what you say in these things?
You've been talking 80 to 90 times, 40 to 90 every day.
I don't know what you're talking about.
Well, I want you to wait for tomorrow.
Because then, I can't wait for tomorrow to explain to you everything.
And then tomorrow, if they're not released, I know they're going to go on to the sub-state.
But I would make the destination today.
So I don't, I mean, I won't invent it on this farm.
I was sitting here thinking about it, and I thought, that's the best thing to do.
You see the door out of the door, it's the old story, you know, like, the head of the office said, the hell with having a press company, the rest of the press, I mean, the head of the office, they're very responsible.
You know, I started working for the first time.
I'd go out and plan, plan, plan.
I'd portion it out.
I'd figure out what to say.
I was like, tomorrow I came soon.
Tomorrow I came a little soon.
I was like, great, because you've got the motor on.
and always however
I mean, I, I don't care, the only thing I think water is good for, water is a light sweeping thing in the public space.
But if water is something I'm afraid of,
I don't think it's necessary
I don't even know what I'm buying here.
I think this relates to much here.
And when that should be done, I mean, you should send a message indicating that my faith is strong.
There's nothing else we can do.
We can't come up with any good stuff.
Thank you.
And that certainly can't be an answer.
I wouldn't know about that.
You know, you can say they're a green thing.
They're putting in the stocks they had been thought of.
They're getting way further.
They're getting ready for the festival, and they're not the only ones who are getting ready for that.
They're not the only ones who are getting ready for that.
And they're not the ones who are getting ready for that.
uh...
Bye.
And we're not going to, we're not having to say that because our blood circle is that much.
And we're just going to have to try to do what we can.
And I'll wait.
See?
I don't understand what you're trying to say.
I'm sorry.
... ... ...
Just for background material on this.
We have already released 5,000 students.
It's all been released, 5,000 students.
But we have a lot of major issues.
Remember when I said that they had put a linking thing in, and it didn't even seem to exist?
After October, that was what we were talking about.
They tried to link it.
They released the specimen, and saw the number, but they could not agree to that.
They didn't want to help us out.
They didn't want to help us out.
Now that you're trying to go back to that life, if you think you're trapped in one of those things, you're going to serve God.
Otherwise, it might go up.
Yeah, probably.
Yeah.
um
There were some other places.
I agree.
Yeah.
I was thinking that...
I've never met him.
I've never saw him before.
I'm afraid to think of the art of training.
I'm afraid to think of the art of training.
I'm afraid to think of the art of training.
I'm afraid to think of the art of training.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
No, what is that one?
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
and the U.S. compliance with the ceasefire, Vietnam, which I'm sure you've been involved with, and the U.S. compliance with the financial situation.
They try to bring in Laos and Cambodian, but it's not the same.
They've got Laos and Cambodian, and it has the Laotian parties.
The Laotian parties, the Cambodian parties, and it's not the same.
They've got the entire set up from that.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
in terms of risk control schedules for many of the matters.
Well, it would stand in the way of what else would be in the way of the court justifying it.
But, you know, I mean, I guess we're brave enough to work with it, but what if everyone else is still in the way of their case?
Well, that's quite a
I don't know if that's something you could, but the horror in itself is so emotional.
I hate white men.
So I hop on the other end of it, and I say to the gentleman next to me, I'm going to do a simple stroke, and I'm going to stretch it out, and I'm going to move it down.
And then I'm going to move it, and I'm going to stretch it out, and I'm going to move it down.
And I'm going to stretch it out, and I'm going to move it down.
And I'm going to stretch it out, and I'm going to move it down.
I don't know.
I'm going to ask Dean.
Well, I thought, I didn't answer your question.
I thought you had such an important question that I should sit down and answer it.
I don't know.
I don't know.
... ... ... ...
We've got to get to that.
We've got to get to that.
We've got to get to that.
We've got to get to that.
We've got to get to that.
Uh, on schedule.
Uh, second.
Uh, this report, this report is from, uh, it's not made, I mean, quite honestly, it's not, it has not been made by the Department of Defense, uh, that, uh, they, uh,
I don't know about the colonel, the colonel of the nation, but just so that we know this understanding on this point, whatever, about our position, the position we have made.
Okay, I guess it's out there.
Actually, this is going to be a good call.
Okay.
You know, they all, they all, you know, get out, you know, and they, and the rest of them, you know, but, uh, what did you think?
it's not
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I've never seen that before in my life.
I mean, if you could take a full year course in the universe, it would be special.
I mean, I can't keep up.
It's a festival.
It's a festival.
It's a festival.
It's a festival.
It's a festival.
and just to let them know that they were wrong.
And it struck someone like me that wasn't that harsh on people in this area.
You know, you hear someone talk about it and you're like, wait, no, the Lord hasn't been harsh on me.
You know, there's personalities, you know.
But that's not the type of question that we tell them.
Sure, sure, sure.
Well, after all, we all have that problem.
They, they, it's been so high of a rally over the last 10 years, and they're basically, the people that make this argument are all in Kansas City, and they're killing people, right?
They're the high of a rally.
What are your people going to do?
The show's done nothing.
Well, good ice to get in one line if it comes up.
And that is that, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh,
uh uh
must be in
Yeah, I don't think so.
There you go.
But that's the point.
The point here is, well, Shabbat is over, and now we're looking around.
What are you looking around for?
Look around.
I'm not sure.
Well, you could say that now we have this.
You know, another interesting thing you might say that I was planning.
I don't mean very murder, but I had a thing locked up, but I didn't think anything was murderous.
But I think another thing you could say, like, I don't know, for 40 years...
I'm primarily obsessed with the discussion of the division of the debate about war.
Now, when the war is over, I think about the division of the debate in the country of the states, what we call the speech of the
uh now and at the present time
You have arguments about depression.
You have arguments about the role of government.
You have arguments about the press and so forth.
But it's, you know, the press believes that it's much better to have debates about that than about the law.
I had some work to do.
This is why I'm impressed by the writer.
Honestly, many of them said,
There's no one.
The problem of one other thing I want to bring in, women come to me and come to me and say,
Well, in the end of the day, my theory about all this stuff
Now, let's explain the rhetoric, which is very important.
Now, this is concerned with everything else in this book, but let's say it's funny.
I said, if it's fun, it's the fighting that I'm going to be in the rest of my life.
First, we're not going to put that fighting in there.
Well, as a second question, this kind of statement will highly escalate this matter.
The Canadian version is that there will be no horizon for that, and that if necessary, I'll make
But what I think, and I may have to ultimately work together, is that life, I think, is more important than anything.
I don't know if you're going to tell me that, Mr. Smith.
When Grawl came about here, like, as a ceasefire by the U.S., what happened to my quarterback?
Now, that doesn't mean that the minds of the U.S. are all the same.
What's the worst part about that?
Well, you're quite a strong patient.
You can see what their minds are.
Just don't.
Don't.
Don't.
Don't.
Don't.
Don't.
Yeah, of course, I'm talking about guts, but how much do we have to create?
And they thought it was enough.
That's what the Harris pool suggested.
People are more assertive.
If you go out and ask someone, they're more assertive.
Harris makes sense.
I've always been hung up on the liberal agenda, which is, I can ask anybody, are you for more money for school kids?
Are you for more money for hospital care?
Are you for more money for the city?
Yes.
Are you for increasing their taxes?
No.
Are you for increasing their prices?
No.
And Harris, I just showed that to you from there.
It's the same thing all over again.
In that context,
There is a program that is committed to reminding everyone of this.
It's also important for the compatriots not to concern about a Harris Bowl that's in its own store while the Harris Bowl is on.
But the Harris Bowl, in any case, learned the bottom line.
One, two, three.
Well, knowing our people, one of the things I would say, I would say I'm a little bit
What I'm getting at was, when I think of the middle summary, ten victims have a maximum assumption.
Otherwise, it tends to give disproportionate emphasis to both the negative and the positive, and to basically the columnist kind of thing.
What I think really needs to happen is the reporting.
In other words, what the wire service has said and what the, uh, what the networks have said.
And I think we should be attempting to drive some people on and over.
And because no matter how hard you seek to try to balance it with right and left, it's going to end up with more of the emphasis on, you know,
But they have so much of that kind of a thing there.
They don't get it.
We'll go to them.
I think that's something.
Of course, if you have a pen, put it in.
Then people can put it in and realize, well, here, here's a pen.
It's kind of like, I always have one of the no's for the pen.
Let's face it, you know, only one-tenth of the speaker readers read editorial papers.
One-tenth of them.
They read the Brown Pages, the Smarter Pages, the Banass Pages, the Society Pages, the Editorial Pages.
Only one-hundredth of them read the content.
Now, why the hell would we sit here and punish ourselves like we should wait?
And for that matter, it can't be right.
We can't bring it on.
It's the same.
It's just an actual attack.
I can't believe it.
I don't know.
I can't believe it.
I don't know.
We have a, you know, the discipline of the man, you know.
So I don't, I don't just, you know, but I think you have to realize that we, the nationals, we don't have to trust the discipline of God.
When they weren't born at that time, I don't know if they were.
If anyone wants to know what I'm doing, they are going to come out and be friends with me.
I said that was simple.
I said that I was planning to build a hat.
I said that I was going to build a helmet.
I said that I was going to build a helmet.
I said that I was going to build a helmet.
I said that I was going to build a helmet.
Uh, in dealing with this, I think it's much better than I agreed.
In dealing with everything, it's not resolved.
I don't want to be out to deal with it.
I don't want that to continue to break.
So, you know, we're kind of going to start a depression tomorrow.
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
  • 043-204 9:34 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at 9:34 am.
  • 043-205 9:43 AM · 11 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone at an unknown time between 9:43 am and 10:20 am.
  • 043-206 10:20 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull talked on the telephone from 10:20 am to 10:21 am.
  • 043-207 10:20 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull talked on the telephone from 10:20 am to 10:21 am.
  • 043-221 10:20 AM · 13 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator talked on the telephone from 10:20 am to 10:21 am.
  • 415-011 10:20 AM · 12 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and the White House operator met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 10:20 am.
  • 415-012 10:20 AM · 1 min — President Richard M. Nixon and Stephen B. Bull met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 10:20 am to 10:21 am.
  • 415-013 10:21 AM · 40 sec — President Richard M. Nixon and H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building at 10:21 am.

Conversation 415-010, February 27, 1973. White House Tapes, Richard Nixon Presidential Library and Museum, National Archives (NAID 417187271). Audio and AI transcript via Easy Nixon, https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/415-010 (accessed November 15, 2026).