Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 422-033
Date: Thursday, March 22, 1973 at 1:57 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Dean, John W., III; Ehrlichman, John D.; Haldeman, H. R. ("Bob"); Mitchell, John N.
Recording device: Old Executive Office Building
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/422-033
National Archives Catalog: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/417187553 (NAID 417187553)

This transcript was made by an AI model listening to the recording (google/gemini-3.8-flash) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Speaker names are the model's inference. Verify against the audio before citing.

[0:00] NIXON: Well John, how are you?
[0:04] DEAN: Mr. President, I'm just great. How are you?
[0:08] NIXON: Walked in, did you? You walk?
[0:11] DEAN: Yes, I walk, and hope that will be okay. [laughter]
[0:16] EHRLICHMAN: It's faster.
[0:20] NIXON: Yeah, it's faster, yeah. All these people have all their passes and all that stuff.
[0:23] DEAN: It's a lot faster.
[0:27] DEAN: There's no problem. But I- I can report, Donald Webster Burns phoned by the way [unintelligible]
[0:31] DEAN: I don't think there's any reason why I shouldn't.
[0:33] EHRLICHMAN: [unintelligible]
[0:36] DEAN: I saw no point in postponing any further hearings. I'm afraid two weeks-
[0:41] EHRLICHMAN: I don't think he's cooled off a bit.
[0:43] DEAN: He's very steady, on the floor.
[0:46] EHRLICHMAN: Very.
[0:49] EHRLICHMAN: Well, every- everybody's- everybody is with him today and used your counsel to be on watch.
[0:52] DEAN: Maybe better if I've been shooting. [laughter]
[0:56] DEAN: That might be it. They said yes, and John E. did bite me afternoon and said why didn't you go look up where Howard had an office, and why, and I had him check it out.
[1:04] DEAN: And I knew the agent, asked if he could see the office. Well, it turns right out the other way, and I could've had them check that out.
[1:12] DEAN: And now it's been turned into the idea, "Did Byron lie to the FBI about the fact that he had an office and he didn't have an office here?"
[1:16] DEAN: It wasn't that question. It wasn't that question. He took more than that, than that.
[1:19] DEAN: And then the angle he praises, you know,
[1:24] DEAN: Praise that. Praise Patrick Gray, in what was said, he never, never saw the final facts of the questioning, Patrick Gray.
[1:28] DEAN: Did he ever stir up the question for luncheon? Stir up each question. Tell me, this quite a strange thing, isn't it? Yeah, but,
[1:34] DEAN: I mean, what's more in fact they're both naked, and with both handles. That's right.
[1:40] DEAN: Gray says, "I had FBI agents go into the White House. Somebody sent them out and said, 'Look, why don't you get out of my- Why don't you get out of this office?'" So, what did you ask after, he asks it?
[1:48] DEAN: Hey, did you do the White House office search?
[1:53] DEAN: So, the question did he lie to the agent for Patrick Gray? I don't think Patrick Gray was in the, did you get an answer, Patrick Gray?
[1:58] EHRLICHMAN: Why didn't they?
[2:01] DEAN: It's happened around three.
[2:05] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[2:15] DEAN: Patrick Gray, Patrick Gray's- Oh, well that's better right now, he's just fostered. He said it quite frankly down there. Frank, send me he's talking to you right now, because Patrick Gray's taken side of that all like that on the conversation he's had since the hearing started.
[2:25] NIXON: He has?
[2:31] DEAN: Every time he's made who's called who the cause of the four-year hearing so far.
[2:37] EHRLICHMAN: He's a very down man right now, I say also.
[2:42] DEAN: They're trying to find a body over there right now.
[2:45] DEAN: They're trying to find Howard Baker to transfer the leadership. Well, you know Baker's out for some reason. We had, I try to throw out the idea of Baker. Baker's leadership in this thing would be better, but,
[2:50] DEAN: I fact after this point for Gurney to take it. And it reminded me after the, that the Democrats wouldn't agree to that.
[2:59] DEAN: Do you realize the nation is facing about this whole muddy-
[3:02] DEAN: Well, he can.
[3:07] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[3:32] DEAN: We've bounced down. He realized after our conversation, bounced down, he said that, eh, I might as well go walk, walk on clear paths than this and that.
[3:40] DEAN: So, I'm kind of tried, much is disturbed, I guess. My voice, we'll run round with this fine fellow first, and he's more than that. All right. He said that, you say, so,
[3:50] DEAN: and you judge.
[3:53] DEAN: I don't think so. I think Moore is talking with him right now.
[3:59] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[4:23] DEAN: Show the darling ard, anyone who walks through the fire. Well, look, what the Specifics, and what the question, and what this morning, do you think I can get in on it? That's what, that's what Gray's-
[4:31] MITCHELL: Well, they've got the period when they wanted him
[4:37] MITCHELL: way out of the office.
[4:40] DEAN: The way out of the office.
[4:42] DEAN: Well, I heard John would say, "I already know where on earth they would get it."
[4:50] DEAN: I don't think there was one.
[4:54] MITCHELL: No.
[4:57] DEAN: The facts were just, now they're just, and when he would say that he wants to get out, and they bounce back and forth here. Oh, you did, didn't you? Yeah, they have.
[5:07] DEAN: And they had them. Now, what do you bounce for? Well, this
[5:12] DEAN: Because I've tried all kind, and when you can find four, and you've got to ask him to that transfer the hearing.
[5:23] DEAN: I kind of get jealous.
[5:29] DEAN: Not for the brains, you know, they call John out of our room
[5:34] NIXON: Right.
[5:39] EHRLICHMAN: They called.
[5:47] DEAN: [laughter] You had, they had three toes in. Three. Maybe, they go on 20 minutes by, and shoot back over there, and into her car, shoot back over. This morning, all the public city, right?
[6:02] DEAN: They're out, and then,
[6:08] DEAN: Gone out, of all their this. How that did, never mind, did what. That is show the way that is, show how this,
[6:17] DEAN: the Administrator didn't send them to your caution today, what's a call for long?
[6:26] DEAN: Well, no good. They said,
[6:30] DEAN: yes, with this dog-gone, what if they get, like, Trump
[6:37] DEAN: giving this, uh, what the President was, when he spoke, when they talked about these eggs, that the President
[6:44] DEAN: why don't you understand not that, he expressed the personal view and couldn't wait the,
[6:51] DEAN: that's how many, who can't hear, but they certainly did.
[7:19] DEAN: personal lawyer, and they would probably give them the subpoena through the the court order.
[7:29] DEAN: Uh they uh nothing was raised about the Baker meeting concerned he didn't have nothing on that, nothing on the other, they followed through on all of it. Uh but he did say that the Baker was a little pissed off at Kleindienst because uh eh he had not been helpful at all.
[7:48] DEAN: And at one point they said the meeting was set up and Kleindienst had cancelled it, and that time they rescheduled it. And so Baker has some communication pipes. The day it was scheduled was the day you had the press conference and announced you were ready to really throw down, so the press conference would be another way to blow up, which uh caught Baker unaware.
[8:08] DEAN: Uh and uh this is certainly being done through down channels. The view is that Kleindienst is being far less than helpful.
[8:23] MITCHELL: Well, Kleindienst, I don't think, would agree with that completely. He has told all of our people that uh no matter how it happens, that Baker's not going to cooperate with them.
[8:43] DEAN: Well, he's attacking today a reason that they make the points Mr. Ervin wants Kleindienst to order the FBI raw files. You shall recall yesterday the committee demanded the that they be subpoenaed. The Attorney General handed the Director of the FBI raw files to all of the members of the committee.
[9:03] DEAN: And I talked to Kleindienst last night. He raised that. And he said he worried about whether the White- the White House now classified everything so that nothing could be turned over to anyone.
[9:21] DEAN: I didn't answer his question.
[9:26] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[9:42] MITCHELL: Baker's point being he wants to talk to Kleindienst, but he's not talking to anyone?
[9:54] DEAN: He did, and Kleindienst got the word through back to Baker that Baker had better see the President. He wouldn't watch the talk with Kleindienst.
[10:11] MITCHELL: Well, through whom? I guess, one, uh, that tube had better be cleared. So, I would suggest, John, that you call Kleindienst, you can't get a conversation.
[10:26] MITCHELL: Did you call him to say, [crosstalk] "We've got rumors that Baker's not happy"?
[10:36] DEAN: [crosstalk] That's right.
[10:38] MITCHELL: "Kleindienst had better see Baker and straight the stuff out because eh this is what Baker wants." Even if it has to be done [unintelligible] you know, in the middle of the night, or a week from now, or whatever it is.
[10:51] DEAN: Hell, Baker wants to collaborate, and what is he- Baker would not want to be seen with Kleindienst.
[10:56] MITCHELL: He doesn't want to talk with him anywhere. He has to collaborate.
[10:59] DEAN: He does want he wants to collaborate. This is where everyone is saying. He wants to be helpful. He wants to work things out.
[11:05] EHRLICHMAN: Well, if the President didn't want to do that, who turns down Kleindienst?
[11:10] DEAN: That's right. So, he just wants to talk with Kleindienst.
[11:14] MITCHELL: Kleindienst knows that?
[11:16] DEAN: Yes, someone called Kleindienst.
[11:18] MITCHELL: You did?
[11:22] DEAN: Well, what?
[11:25] MITCHELL: Why didn't they call him?
[11:27] DEAN: Oh, it's folks such as Howard
[11:32] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[11:46] MITCHELL: Call him again.
[11:48] DEAN: Okay.
[11:53] MITCHELL: Tell him Howard's people are frantic because Kleindienst canceled it.
[12:18] MITCHELL: I don't get the frustration.
[12:23] HALDEMAN: Well, that's who know who did it.
[12:26] DEAN: Kleindienst said, "Senator Baker, since he's a minority leader, you guys handle the Capitol Hill. I'm handling the executive.
[12:35] MITCHELL: Yeah, and he didn't- he wouldn't turn over Baker's cover and say that Ervin, you know, wouldn't agree with Ervin, they turned down to Ervin and said they wouldn't support it, oh, he said it.
[12:46] DEAN: That's a [unintelligible] position.
[12:53] MITCHELL: Who is he trying to protect?
[13:00] NIXON: Hey, uh we did have uh Dick back in very, very early this morning, remember?
[13:08] EHRLICHMAN: It's a little bit who can screw who the hardest, I think, Dick's getting mad at them. But you watch Christ because he'll get sandbagged into that thing.
[13:24] MITCHELL: How about the impoundment problem?
[13:27] EHRLICHMAN: Great.
[13:28] MITCHELL: Has he got a shot?
[13:32] EHRLICHMAN: He thinks he has.
[13:34] DEAN: He has, uh he just can't I called him I talked to Kleindienst last night and that's what Dick's really getting tight. [snort]
[13:44] MITCHELL: Well, what is it? It gives you a great sensation, very young. Somebody had to listen to some of this, and Dick reacted so hysterically he had
[13:57] DEAN: Well, he had access to the FBI file.
[14:03] MITCHELL: Yeah.
[14:05] DEAN: This, this was the opposite of what Kleindienst told him, how and the post, he shouldn't have ever either told him that.
[14:13] MITCHELL: Of course. Well Gray's the guy, not Kleindienst, who should have known second.
[14:26] DEAN: I talked to Dick Saturday night in the Alps at the scenic circle club, and uh he said that we got a subpoena from the [unintelligible]
[14:35] NIXON: Okay, I'll go.
[14:38] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[14:53] NIXON: Well, what do we uh, what the- words of wisdom do we have from this august body this morning?
[15:06] EHRLICHMAN: John Mitchell has proposed something that will take great courage, I believe.
[15:14] MITCHELL: Basically, it would run like this: John Dean would be the uh master, uh in fact, the uh [clears throat] the only White House contact that would carry out the drill. And I would uh-
[15:38] EHRLICHMAN: Well, wait a while. Let's describe the whole package.
[15:52] MITCHELL: The package is certainly more than John Dean. It's uh, starts with the premise that somehow the President has to formulate a posture for the White House [cough] through which all subsequents would uh flow.
[16:12] EHRLICHMAN: Well, okay. I wanted to tell you, you know, on uh Baker today, and his insistence that we start with the committee, and uh Baker's uh insistence that we get a handle.
[16:37] EHRLICHMAN: I had a very long discussion with him this morning, well, I get back to where we were before, nobody here has any discussion on Baker's proposition.
[16:53] EHRLICHMAN: And how to fight it, that they think uh that Baker is lost on these, you know, on executive privilege and on Dean.
[17:09] HALDEMAN: In the committee?
[17:10] EHRLICHMAN: Uh-huh.
[17:13] EHRLICHMAN: In the committee. And, so uh I guess that the point is that we've got we've got one hue and cry, a damn mad hen today, and uh I wanted to put everybody else on notice, and so uh-
[17:32] EHRLICHMAN: I told Baker, I said, "Well, alright. Who do you want to talk to? Would you like to come talk to Ehrlichman?" And he said, "Fine." So I have that to handle, and uh so he's-he's run down here.
[17:45] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. And this, what if you get him off the hook on that? But I also, a kind of a line, we didn't want that [unintelligible]
[17:58] EHRLICHMAN: and uh I accept it, good thing, but we can get it under the central for Peter Flaherty.
[18:17] DEAN: I have in mind that we might discussion.
[18:30] EHRLICHMAN: the way to do it. The way to do that, is basically do the In terms of uh you want to get into the committee and our guidelines, but then I think you you're going to have to Baker handle. That's a hell of a tough job and I think you you have you have to know then where to go.
[19:01] DEAN: Yeah.
[19:04] HALDEMAN: Yeah.
[19:05] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[19:12] NIXON: Yeah.
[19:15] EHRLICHMAN: All right, I am.
[19:19] MITCHELL: All right.
[19:21] HALDEMAN: All right.
[19:23] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[19:44] EHRLICHMAN: Okay, and I have had your shot, and they are already having headaches.
[20:01] DEAN: Did he, or did Kleindienst?
[20:05] MITCHELL: Yeah, Kleindienst did that.
[20:08] HALDEMAN: Instead of with Weicker, did you work that thing out with him at least, you said the promise he's still right?
[20:21] DEAN: Well, he talked to him.
[20:26] HALDEMAN: Yeah.
[20:29] DEAN: [unintelligible]
[20:32] HALDEMAN: Great.
[20:34] EHRLICHMAN: If you don't then you never had the call. But he goes for the price.
[20:43] MITCHELL: All right, then. Let's see this one. You'll have uh You'll You'll have Baker then. Babysitting starting like about ten minutes.
[20:55] EHRLICHMAN: All right.
[21:00] DEAN: Got to do the same for Baker. Baker is in this thing.
[21:13] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[21:33] NIXON: [unintelligible]
[21:44] HALDEMAN: Anyway, he said he talked to him on the phone.
[21:54] EHRLICHMAN: Did he find Baker? Well, I would guess, it's a good thing for that. I've always had, they're always in here bitching about nobody calls them, and nobody here was talking to them. They're pretty casual about these things, especially about Colson, what's-his-name, and Ervin, and Famous-
[22:23] MITCHELL: And his and his and Colson, Chuck Colson, God damn it, what the hell did that, no business
[22:31] NIXON: Yeah, handle which, and Colson-
[22:34] MITCHELL: I mean, he's looking for some they're looking for some some uh limb for the White House. Yeah.
[22:44] NIXON: Got to be quiet.
[22:46] NIXON: Go ahead, let's take a couple chairs, fellas. How do you uh, how do you handle uh-
[22:55] MITCHELL: Well, I'm talking about We're talking arrangement.
[23:00] DEAN: Well, I think under the under the uh, under the situation you uh, under the statement that we have, where emotion to department head where you get that we are in a position to uh negotiate with them how we ought to help.
[23:21] DEAN: and handle every White House staff person, testify [cough] only in executive sessions, on that, but you got a lot of other things.
[23:36] EHRLICHMAN: On or off, where they where they were.
[23:39] DEAN: Uh and as well, that's what I told Baker too this morning.
[23:44] MITCHELL: If they get into that proposition and they will swear fire, well, then, let's take like this:
[23:58] NIXON: [unintelligible]
[24:03] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[24:21] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible] facts can be released would help, rather than hurt the President [unintelligible] what the President's thinking is, because he wants to report
[24:36] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible] for him. I can see that Baker for instance could say, without anybody being ruined with the President
[24:47] NIXON: Well, I'm going to decide right now [unintelligible] Baker. Baker has to know before we start.
[24:57] DEAN: Well, I've got a report here, and I think I see more in it at this point than I've thought of before. I'm obviously, they reserve all questions [unintelligible] the act, but I can hit points with people now, the way we went into it.
[25:09] HALDEMAN: John, if you hit just any danger point, if admitting that any one member of the White House staff has been no danger point of him, that if some other one can, that could be a danger point in itself. Then what you're saying-
[25:20] MITCHELL: [crosstalk] What you're saying is the President's involved.
[25:25] NIXON: [unintelligible] take a look at it.
[25:28] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[25:45] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible] report based [unintelligible] FBI [unintelligible] FBI report [unintelligible] all it's based on [unintelligible] grand jury [unintelligible]
[26:05] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[34:03] EHRLICHMAN: Well, the issue's properly confined, the problem's properly confined. So, why think why not put ourselves in a framework where you're
[34:07] EHRLICHMAN: way out above it. You're cooperating with this committee, turning over material, and no further comment.
[34:14] NIXON: And no further comment.
[34:16] EHRLICHMAN: See, I think you could get off of this Ziegler stuff, in some way. I don't want Ziegler, I I'd kind of pull Ziegler off of that kind of a hole.
[34:22] DEAN: Stay Stay with it.
[34:23] EHRLICHMAN: He'll cooperate with the committee. It's full cooperation, but we're not going to comment while the matter is being sifted by them. Unless the committee solicits that. In other words, with that speech don't give don't release don't publish the statement the week before.
[34:34] DEAN: No.
[34:35] EHRLICHMAN: Only hand it over to Ervin.
[34:37] NIXON: To Ervin. Then if they get it, if we hand it to them, if we turn over that to do that, then then can we get anything out about the Republican, putting our side into the
[34:43] DEAN: Well, it gives an awful lot of facts.
[34:46] HALDEMAN: That fact that there has been a report, which for everybody in the White House, which bears out your previous, see that's what makes the, that's what makes the Ziegler's mistake, you see our question now is Ziegler's mistake.
[34:55] MITCHELL: Well, that's what I'm afraid of.
[34:58] DEAN: That would be a pretty big bear trap.
[35:00] NIXON: Yeah.
[35:01] MITCHELL: That would be high up, but, how do we follow up, we follow up the question, but we didn't have a reason for the meeting.
[35:07] EHRLICHMAN: This would be for the purpose of turning over documents and discussing the ground rules. And before you did that, you'd want to have that all agreed in advance as to what the ground rules would be. And you've got quid pro quo here, because you could tell them
[35:17] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[35:18] EHRLICHMAN: Right there, and come to the committee on a third track. Turn over, hand over the Dean report to you, provided we can agree uh on how witnesses will be treated up there.
[35:27] DEAN: [cough]
[35:28] EHRLICHMAN: I can I can even uh construe uh executive privilege John, for example, if you were to, he has talked about executive privilege, really quite broadly. So, the question, for instance, Frank
[35:37] EHRLICHMAN: Franklin had to say: "Well, of course, John Dean has to go under oath.
[35:43] DEAN: He has to go. Right.
[35:45] EHRLICHMAN: Everybody goes under oath, including Roosevelt and me, and everybody except John Dean, who just goes to these, these, your lawyer privilege. Well, then, that would clear him.
[35:54] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[35:56] EHRLICHMAN: Go should have gone there. Motion should have gone there.
[36:01] MITCHELL: [unintelligible] civil prosecution [unintelligible] of public
[36:10] DEAN: [unintelligible]
[36:18] EHRLICHMAN: Let's go. I I don't see the argument against our going, if you're gonna let anybody go, I mean.
[36:21] DEAN: I agree.
[36:23] EHRLICHMAN: Let us go, but on a, you get less trouble with us than you do with some of the others. And, if it's not, and I'm sure if you get, you, you get the big fish up there on the television cameras, that that'll be tough. I mean, strongly, I wouldn't get up nearly as excited as as I am with you fellows, but they're on TV.
[36:29] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[36:34] MITCHELL: Chapin would have to go in.
[36:36] EHRLICHMAN: Uh huh.
[36:37] MITCHELL: Well, if you do it in executive session
[36:41] DEAN: Yeah.
[36:42] MITCHELL: then, I don't see the reason for it.
[36:45] EHRLICHMAN: Then, then, why both of them?
[36:47] DEAN: These executive session things always leak. First, they say they leak subtly. They don't have to leak during the session. If you get into committee business, they stretch that into executive session.
[36:53] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.
[36:54] DEAN: And my, the clean out of the whole thing
[36:57] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[37:02] HALDEMAN: Yeah, you can shut up them and you can get up and say
[37:05] UNKNOWN: Twice.
[37:06] HALDEMAN: that Ervin, and we shouldn't have,
[37:08] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[37:10] HALDEMAN: Can't we maintain the informality?
[37:13] MITCHELL: That hurt us, that never flies.
[37:15] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, I don't know why not, if we could go ahead in an executive session.
[37:19] HALDEMAN: Executive session, I suspect, would, at this point, yes. I I really think these guys are concerned
[37:23] EHRLICHMAN: [cough]
[37:24] HALDEMAN: about the reaction. I see they have, they've all singled out that the Ervin's crying on television about arresting people and all, crossed the line.
[37:30] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, he took it one step too far.
[37:31] MITCHELL: In addition to that, you have the problem of the long and lengthy [unintelligible]
[37:35] HALDEMAN: It's gone on for a hell of a long time.
[37:37] UNKNOWN: Ervin doesn't want that.
[37:38] DEAN: Now, he's taking on the counsel, too.
[37:41] MITCHELL: Of course, he doesn't want it.
[37:42] DEAN: I know, but they get into it.
[37:43] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, well, but, they do that, so he changes. That's the easy one for them. Can you imagine somebody who had no contacts, and had left private, they were spreading rumors about the laws, the lawyers, and Dean was an attorney. They didn't test his whole, who the hell
[37:52] HALDEMAN: did they ask for? You see, the funny thing is, they didn't fight back, where they're facts were, Chaplain is the guy that they've asked for. You trigger the whole privilege on Chapin. That's the one they'd go to court on. They've probably, we'd probably do pretty well, because he's a former employee, that had no policy role and no
[37:57] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.
[37:58] HALDEMAN: immediate contact with the President.
[38:01] DEAN: I don't know that. I wasn't around [unintelligible]
[38:06] MITCHELL: [unintelligible] Chapin is no longer involved,
[38:10] EHRLICHMAN: Part of the insisted by, well, because Dean at least called. That's why he regarded you as one, not as [unintelligible]
[38:16] DEAN: They have no leg, they can get him on.
[38:21] MITCHELL: Well, personally, so, I was more surprised that we had gotten into this in the first place.
[38:27] DEAN: I had a conversation with
[38:30] MITCHELL: press conference, in the case of a former White House employee, [unintelligible] you get him out, and then you could, then you could have him go in front of a camera and say, "I will not, because the President's personal
[38:37] HALDEMAN: Well, then you'd get up, why, if there's no privilege, so, you're clear on folks.
[38:41] EHRLICHMAN: And, and, of course, we had the anomaly of Mark Felt running out and, uh, crying to give testimony in a Civil Service hearing, don't forget now.
[38:50] DEAN: Yeah.
[38:51] HALDEMAN: Yeah. Running up, saying, "Ask me a question, ask me a question." This is a kangaroo court.
[38:55] EHRLICHMAN: By way of clearing any doubt, it's an open-and-shut, and what's happening is that that the, uh, the government is asserting the executive privilege.
[39:00] NIXON: Yeah, no no.
[39:03] DEAN: I hope nobody's going to clear it.
[39:05] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, all right, it's what they say to you, all right, suppose it's plain to do it, the point is who's privilege is it to assert? What do you do with Chapin, I think, I had, uh, thought this morning, some folks you've got to figure out what scenario you go through, why is it so hard to have to kick that immediately, dispute the issue?
[39:15] DEAN: Mhm.
[39:16] EHRLICHMAN: The, the on behalf of the person, but why don't you go to the committee, saying the executive asserts privilege?
[39:22] HALDEMAN: Let me ask this. It's a, it's a question, it's to John Ehrlichman, John Dean. Uh, you are the two that felt the strongest, with the executive privilege statement, that that was the position to take.
[39:29] NIXON: The hill to die on.
[39:31] HALDEMAN: Is the hill to die on. Do you want to change your mind now?
[39:33] EHRLICHMAN: No, sir. I think, I think that's a terrific statement. It's, it, it puts you just where you should be, it's got lots of flexibility in it, and uh, now, what all that John Mitchell's arguing, is, is that now we we use the flexibility.
[39:46] MITCHELL: That's right.
[39:47] EHRLICHMAN: In order to get off of the cover-up hole. And, and I don't care, I and, and so, in this, we're right, in the state, and I have never gone beyond that.
[39:55] NIXON: Yeah.
[39:56] EHRLICHMAN: He argues, and we're being hurt badly by the way it's being handled, and that we've got to foresee that we can get someone out of it, and the only way to get out is to take the offensive.
[40:08] HALDEMAN: The point is you blow up like you're covering up right now. The only the only active step you've taken, to cover up the Watergate is to call on the privilege.
[40:20] EHRLICHMAN: Well, it's
[40:21] HALDEMAN: Was that?
[40:23] EHRLICHMAN: Even even even the way Walker did it, of course, but, the point is that it was based on illegal grounds, and president, tradition, constitutional grounds, and all that stuff. We, we're just fine. But, for the guy, sitting at home, who watches John Chancellor say that the President's covering this up, by this historic which you played as the widest exercise of executive privilege in American history, and all that.
[40:44] HALDEMAN: He said, "What the hell is he covering up, if he's got no problem? Why doesn't he let them go and talk?"
[40:51] EHRLICHMAN: Then, the guy at home from Watergate doesn't collect the answers, does he? That's right.
[40:58] HALDEMAN: His precedent and all that does, they don't know what you're talking about.
[41:03] NIXON: Maybe, then we shouldn't have made the statement.
[41:06] EHRLICHMAN: I think we should've, because it puts you in a much better position, see they were over here, is where Ervin was. He wanted all of us up there, in an unlimited, in total, wide-open.
[41:12] HALDEMAN: Mhm.
[41:13] EHRLICHMAN: We, the statement, in a sense, pushed it over here, and now you move back to about here, and probably you can get away with that. You've narrowed it to the Watergate context.
[41:22] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[41:23] EHRLICHMAN: See, you've said, executive privilege is good, and it applies to personal conversations with the President, in a historic Anglo-Saxon context. And, I wouldn't change that, and I wouldn't cheapen it.
[41:34] NIXON: I can't change it. You can't change it.
[41:36] EHRLICHMAN: Exactly right.
[41:38] NIXON: Can't.
[41:41] EHRLICHMAN: At the same time, we you know, sure, I've always recognized we might have to soften things. At the same time,
[41:48] MITCHELL: [cough]
[41:49] EHRLICHMAN: you are in a position to say, "Oh, well, none of these other things.
[41:54] MITCHELL: Right.
[41:55] EHRLICHMAN: And, what I'm what I'll do there, consistent with my statement, is so-and-so, and so-and-so, because it's very clear the question the committee properly wants to ask, don't have anything bearing on these people's relationship with the President.
[42:05] MITCHELL: Mhm.
[42:07] EHRLICHMAN: If they don't.
[42:08] NIXON: The President has nothing to do with it.
[42:12] HALDEMAN: It's gonna be hard to get
[42:15] EHRLICHMAN: It's gonna be hard to get, but, you're right, in the end, it's gotta be an air damn and everything.
[42:22] DEAN: Yeah.
[42:24] EHRLICHMAN: He's right on crew, you just can't walk.
[42:25] HALDEMAN: So, the answer is John, not
[42:27] EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.
[42:28] HALDEMAN: The argument, the argument will be, the President backed down.
[43:46] DEAN: is a rock solid position of taking privilege and not letting anybody take anything and going to court, [unintelligible] everybody's backed up.
[43:54] EHRLICHMAN: And everybody said the best way, it would be not to go up at all.
[43:56] MITCHELL: The thing is they get, they haven't got a good PR program. The people don't think so.
[44:03] EHRLICHMAN: They don't know it. Oh, yeah. They don't
[44:05] NIXON: PR, what do you mean?
[44:06] EHRLICHMAN: They think you've clanked down an iron curtain around anybody here ever,
[44:12] DEAN: and never would I uncover anything [unintelligible]
[44:17] MITCHELL: I always thought somebody else's committee's operating rules would not permit witnesses to have counsel. Like the grand jury. I have never heard of that. At the committee, I'm amazed now. I get a bit of
[44:32] DEAN: Committee on the Congress [unintelligible] on the Congress committee [unintelligible]
[44:38] MITCHELL: No, except that I was there
[44:42] EHRLICHMAN: They always allowed them. I can't imagine Congress [unintelligible]
[44:50] DEAN: Now, it seems to me that [unintelligible] counsel, but the President's counsel should be [unintelligible] waver if he's actually subpoenaed, and the President's counsel should be there to to enforce the limitations. And the witness should not have to be in a position of saying, "That's one I can't answer [unintelligible]."
[45:10] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[45:12] DEAN: [unintelligible]
[45:15] MITCHELL: Can you get executive sessions over there?
[45:20] EHRLICHMAN: Well they don't, how are they going to keep it a secret? Why the closed session?
[45:26] MITCHELL: Yeah. Yeah, how are they going to handle that on PR, John?
[45:30] DEAN: You've got uh the one that would have to be handled, another one on the howl of an executive session for facts, not PR. A fact-finding operation is very difficult to conduct in the court room, so it's something that has to be
[45:43] EHRLICHMAN: There are no cameras up there. There's no reason to have an executive session Mr. President.
[45:48] NIXON: Eliminate that. I see. I'd go into open session.
[45:51] EHRLICHMAN: [unintelligible]
[46:01] DEAN: [unintelligible]
[46:05] EHRLICHMAN: and you get fascinated. And that pushes you into executive sessions, and takes away from that being the main thing.
[46:22] DEAN: Open sessions.
[46:25] MITCHELL: It gets to be a session, correct.
[46:28] EHRLICHMAN: That's correct. We accept it. Now, what did they do? You offered this shit and he didn't-
[46:35] MITCHELL: Well, they won't, the outward part we will take care of it.
[46:47] NIXON: Do you go into court?
[46:52] DEAN: Alright, into session, and they start in.
[46:54] EHRLICHMAN: And then the lawyer gets into this debate.
[47:03] MITCHELL: Is there in executive session of a Senate committee other senators permitted in that room?
[47:09] EHRLICHMAN: Any senator has the privilege of the floor in a hearing room, but they can't ask, but they can't-
[47:18] MITCHELL: They can't ask questions.
[47:21] EHRLICHMAN: They can't, they are not members of the committee, so they can't.
[47:26] DEAN: Well, that's this committee. That's isn't necessarily true about other committees.
[47:33] EHRLICHMAN: It's normally the practice that nobody can ask questions except the members.
[47:38] DEAN: Kennedy still sat in the audience, and then goes out to the TV cameras and sets up. What you wonder would be what-
[47:44] EHRLICHMAN: Probably would have anyway.
[47:49] DEAN: I was just thinking that in the membership of the committee, we're in reasonably good shape. In other words, the people they have on the committee are not as bad as some others.
[47:59] EHRLICHMAN: Gurney is the deviate. We don't have to worry about the others. Right?
[48:06] DEAN: In Lowell Weicker and and uh Montoya.
[48:09] EHRLICHMAN: Right.
[48:29] MITCHELL: I would say set your fires under them, but leave the committee alone.
[48:34] DEAN: [unintelligible]
[48:43] EHRLICHMAN: When do they start hearings?
[48:46] MITCHELL: May, middle of May.
[48:49] DEAN: Well, the talk of the hearing [unintelligible]
[48:53] MITCHELL: The jobs for the PR you don't hear much [unintelligible]
[48:58] EHRLICHMAN: Your PR is in silence by the termination of the gray heart. The way we sell [unintelligible]
[53:29] EHRLICHMAN: And, uh, it's just [unintelligible]
[53:33] EHRLICHMAN: And it's a hell of a bad spot to be. [unintelligible]
[53:39] MITCHELL: Now neither of you had any specifics to talk about. The employer, we don't know who he's stepped He's easier to double-barrel, talk prints, pay in.
[53:46] HALDEMAN: The other thing too about the Dean thing, see, is something like, that's how Dean had- he makes a report. Here's everything Dean knows. That hurts- that's why the Dean report is hurt.
[53:55] MITCHELL: Well make John, why don't you stick to the Ervin thing. When that question comes up,
[54:04] DEAN: [unintelligible] testified as such,
[54:09] MITCHELL: At the same time, he has always indicated that the person having privilege will be there.
[54:17] HALDEMAN: That is, he'll be there to talk. Why did he mix him up? It's the very core of our campaign effort to provide this party, John Dean did it.
[54:21] DEAN: Uh, as you all know, I was over there all of this summer like a wet blanket, I was everywhere. Everywhere they look, they're going to find Dean, so.
[54:33] MITCHELL: Uh,
[54:34] DEAN: I don't think that's bad. I-
[54:41] EHRLICHMAN: You were supposed to be. You were on it after, first you were direct from the President to get the old facts. Second, as White House Counsel you were on it for the purpose of representing people in the Executive branch who were being questioned.
[54:46] MITCHELL: So you were there for the purpose of getting information and that was your job. Correct? Right.
[54:51] EHRLICHMAN: That's- but that- but the main point is, to make certain that Dean had absolutely no operational
[55:03] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible] you know what the thing about jurisdictions is. I think that the District Attorney's office has wider jurisdiction than Silbert.
[55:13] EHRLICHMAN: Sure, they've often- he is never, there's no operative That, you could even make in a private session, that maybe, maybe volunteer to give them a statement under the the whole question of your organizational ability which would be the only possible finding of substance apart from the deal that you had. And that even satisfies one of those guys.
[55:26] MITCHELL: And, and if he wanted to, but they have the President's direction you could never have had an operation. You're always the
[55:36] DEAN: Yeah.
[55:42] EHRLICHMAN: Now we got to keep, oh hey, if Dean's having a guest to throw off, we could give him someone. This is one.
[55:52] MITCHELL: Suppose they say, "John, no. You won't take the stand in, and we want public testimony." What would happen?
[56:03] DEAN: If you take the heat of being - howling. You wouldn't put on an hearing to shake the thing. You'd get that postal
[56:11] MITCHELL: How would you do that?
[56:15] HALDEMAN: Well, they have- for instance, they can subpoena any of us. There's no doubt about that.
[56:25] EHRLICHMAN: Well they, they don't, they don't serve us here because they can't get in, they'd serve us shit home or something like that. But all they find we can't play them. [laughter]
[56:33] HALDEMAN: Anyway, alright, so the question is, once you're served, and you decline, then you've got a contempt situation.
[56:43] HALDEMAN: Now I would say that it, it gets very difficult to lead the Gurney's and on the people who, Colson's taking that. That would be a good test case for him to go on.
[57:02] HALDEMAN: Uh, the other thing is though they could sub- subpoena Colson on other stuff, and Colson could then say, "I- I decline to testify. This had- this is privileged communication."
[57:16] HALDEMAN: Uh,
[57:22] HALDEMAN: privilege activity. And then again, it gets a little- a little fuzzier as to whether or not Colson, uh, Yeah, that's right, and they will get much fuzzier as to whether or not they think privileged, tight enough or not.
[57:32] MITCHELL: Suppose the judge tomorrow, orders
[57:38] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[57:42] EHRLICHMAN: And say the whole damn-
[57:49] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[57:54] MITCHELL: Suppose the judge orders the grand jury, sends body over there to anybody wants to call for them, and anybody else who's been called for, or something like that.
[58:09] HALDEMAN: Then you still go on this pattern that the Ervin, quite as if you do the grand jury, uh, you'd rather go in to say
[58:15] HALDEMAN: What are you doing on that one? And you say, based on what I know about this case,
[58:21] DEAN: Mm-hmm. As far as you know, he's, uh- What if, you know, they're searching.
[58:32] HALDEMAN: And then you can do both, we report for the grand jury and for the committee. You have to form your, defense, your position on the report. Okay? And the report says nobody was involved.
[58:41] MITCHELL: Right.
[58:43] HALDEMAN: And you take a consistent [unintelligible]. Now the clear risk with this question of the grand jury uh, uh,
[58:52] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[59:04] DEAN: [unintelligible] perjury [unintelligible]
[59:14] MITCHELL: Well, [unintelligible] for a grand jury to get up pretty soon. There's, trying to do your best to
[59:27] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[59:46] MITCHELL: It's so broad now, it's Silbert being, being the, prosecutor [unintelligible] special prosecutor. And that's, if that's the case, why do we uh, let's go
[1:00:04] EHRLICHMAN: now in person to who is to call uh, Kleindienst
[1:00:10] HALDEMAN: on the phone. To call Baker first, and Ervin, and tell them that we'd like to meet with them on Monday, uh, to discuss, to explore the formula for providing the information they need
[1:00:25] HALDEMAN: in a way that does not cause conflict with the President's general policies on executive privilege, and lead the, get the uh, we need to get their information.
[1:00:36] MITCHELL: That they requested? They requested that John call or anyone?
[1:00:39] EHRLICHMAN: Yes, and you'll sit down with them. Right. Yeah.
[1:00:44] MITCHELL: How did you do that? Seriously, though. Oh well, I'm not that, you can do it anytime.
[1:00:51] HALDEMAN: Also, write out a thing for Klein's stuff.
[1:00:55] MITCHELL: I think you could talk. I, I think you could do most of the talk.
[1:01:00] DEAN: Yeah. What if he were to tell you, "Well, you also know what"
[1:01:07] HALDEMAN: I don't think we had to agree to anything in this first session, but I think we ought to let them know that we're talking about reaching some sort of-
[1:01:14] MITCHELL: Now what, what could you say here? Ervin's position, I'd say, I'd say I wouldn't accept
[1:01:20] MITCHELL: Well what do you want? What's your position, what would we do?
[1:01:27] DEAN: [unintelligible] formal session.
[1:01:31] HALDEMAN: Has Ervin's position been he insists on a formal session? Has that his position? Well we don't know, we've never had anything to him, but this response to your position, that's really what you've got now.
[1:01:41] DEAN: Yeah.
[1:01:42] HALDEMAN: Ervin's response to the, to the existing situation, that is, written stuff isn't any good. I want the body. Because you can't ask paper, you can't ask questions. These are paper questions.
[1:01:55] HALDEMAN: Okay, now what we're saying, that's What we're doing the written stuff with them question.
[1:02:04] HALDEMAN: That was, that was a figure. I think the thing uh, not on a statement form. That is a general thing. Then you have this in your press conferences. You said they will provide written, uh, I think you said, I think so, at the press conference. And Ervin's response was to that. Right. So, you're saying that, uh, these people will be happy to provide the written answers to questions appropriate.
[1:02:18] MITCHELL: Appropriate questions. Take the chair woman's statement. Right.
[1:02:23] DEAN: Now I'm not, sure we used formal and informal. It came up the first time is when I responded to uh, letter to Eastland. I responded to Eastland that the committee first [unintelligible]
[1:02:36] HALDEMAN: I faced it. I think that's where it originated.
[1:02:41] DEAN: And then you can answer that after that, uh, we would be happy to supply, uh, information that, uh, they needed.
[1:02:52] HALDEMAN: Alright, and then Ervin responded. He, specifically, rejected that only on the ground that you can't ask questions of a piece of paper, essentially. We need to be able to ask questions. So, what you can do now is that, he hasn't said that the, process has to be like that.
[1:03:11] NIXON: require. That's the question you get into, Bob. What is the what is the argument with er er why executive privilege? What are Why executive session? Why executive session?
[1:03:25] DEAN: Well, because I don't think you can have you have
[1:03:26] NIXON: You can't have You can't hear the in executive That is [crosstalk] lawyers [unintelligible]
[1:03:31] DEAN: I think what I'd do is, er build, talk a little bit about the Constitution and, er, remind them of the position that he took. So, hopefully in the Gravel case, er, they cannot, er, that legislative aides cannot be called to question for advice they give their, er, senator or congressman. He then went on at great length and cited executive privilege.
[1:03:56] NIXON: Then he'll say this was not advice to the President.
[1:03:59] DEAN: Well, and I'll say, I don't And I'll say that the these are men who do advise the President. And that's the principle involved and we have to draw the line.
[1:04:06] NIXON: Can't we have that principle discussed er in er open session? It's the kind of a thing you get a you want to go up to defend with assurance in executive.
[1:04:10] MITCHELL: Well Er er Er er Er er er they are er er for this. If you can tip their hand on Monday evening as to an offer to appear in executive session and get them to respond to the executive session then er he er might er say he had no end of a willingness to listen to ideas as to what would be done and that would buy this and try and work something out. But, as soon as you get to that that's going to become the issue. Now it seems to be that's the issue er openly, whereas, we haven't been able to win with, er
[1:04:45] DEAN: I thought of that, too, but I don't know expressing concern [unintelligible]
[1:04:54] NIXON: [unintelligible] And now, and also a concern about, frank, frankly, having, having matters, if you are, debated publicly, that's a matter that ought to be debated privately, privately.
[1:05:10] EHRLICHMAN: Other matters in the and, and, and without, and, and, and the fact that it is raised does not indicate guilt. That is part of his argument on Gravel, too. The fact that it is raised does not indicate guilt, that's not the reason. And having it in public session does indicate I would work out a complete negotiating scenario before I started [unintelligible] with Ervin.
[1:05:30] MITCHELL: All your duty in that meeting is to indicate to them a willingness to discuss. It's not try and lay out a proposal.
[1:05:34] DEAN: Lay them the flattery. Yes. I would, and for part of that [unintelligible]
[1:05:46] HALDEMAN: the record for the future that's may be an infallible, they make an ounce for this question.
[1:05:56] MITCHELL: That's a good way to set up a procedure where we could do something like that in the future er, You know what I mean? For future cases that this sort of an all we're we're making a lot of history here, Senator, and, er
[1:06:05] DEAN: I agree.
[1:06:09] MITCHELL: a lot of history. And it's we're setting up historical precedents. The President, after all, has quite a few on the history
[1:06:14] DEAN: [unintelligible] Ervin, away from his staff, huh, Ervin, away from his staff is not very much. He just might give up the store himself right there, lock himself in. I've know I've dealt with him for a number of years, seen that happen, and then he reached the floor or they get him back to his place, and he'll say,
[1:06:36] NIXON: As for, as for Baker,
[1:06:38] MITCHELL: Suppose now, he just takes the attitude,
[1:06:39] NIXON: everybody else would go back to him
[1:06:43] MITCHELL: Suppose now he just takes the attitude, "Come on.
[1:06:46] DEAN: [unintelligible]
[1:06:47] MITCHELL: Senator Ervin's character. He's not interested in information. He's not interested in finding out the facts. We're just, we're just going to have public sessions. It's got to be that or else."
[1:06:58] DEAN: Then we've got a lawsuit, Senator, and it's going to be a long one. How can we wait for 1974? [unintelligible]
[1:07:04] MITCHELL: Yeah. Do one sugar, and that's the other thing. The other point is would it not be helpful to get Baker enlisted somewhat in this, that could be done?
[1:07:16] DEAN: Find his clout. Well, even on the opening step, the problem I have here is Baker sits there and just parrots Ervin's adamant thing saying, "Hell no. There can't be anything except, a public session. You've had nothing."
[1:07:32] MITCHELL: Baker [unintelligible] the whole thing on a letter.
[1:07:38] DEAN: Yeah. That should be handled [unintelligible].
[1:07:41] MITCHELL: Baker, on the other hand, finding shit, at least comfortable, look Howard, when are you going to work something out, here? Why can't we say that? You say, we're going to touch We want to work something out. Here, we're with us.
[1:07:51] DEAN: Work out where, where the where the [crosstalk] you can't be you can't be to look at right now, right now Howard, we're going to go in for a lawsuit.
[1:08:03] MITCHELL: Give us a hand, and turn them off from this up. That's, that's They could find, that might carry him through. Be positive this time around. Don't block yourself in.
[1:08:10] DEAN: I don't walk into the hearing, every call, [unintelligible] had another session and so on.
[1:08:15] MITCHELL: Yeah, the other point is, and then the committee comes to session and says, [crosstalk] "We say, and he brings out and says, well, okay, now what do we have to discuss? How do we frame the litigation? And, perhaps we can at least agree on how to frame the litigation. So instead of taking three years, it'll only take a year and a half."
[1:08:49] DEAN: They have no and they know it.
[1:08:58] DEAN: Any house who they go after in certain instances, but they've got a tough lawsuit. They've got to hire counsel, and gonna cost money, that's free, but on their side they don't have the government working, they don't have the Department of Justice that can handle their case. They gotta bring in special counsel who probably knows nothing about executive privilege, has to be educated, er get the Library of Congress cranking away getting all the precedents out and the like, and he's got all that forced in his major operations [unintelligible] resolution of the Senate there is a er a constitutional expert.
[1:09:43] MITCHELL: That can take some of his time.
[1:09:45] DEAN: That's a constitutional expert. Well, anyway, the, er Consider any other possibilities, consider the other no other possibilities.
[1:10:00] DEAN: [unintelligible] Well, you talk about is a hang out, so to speak. Well, it's Really that, I feel limited hang out. It's, what are doing is a hang out. Er, on, and it's virtually beating, hanging out part of your problem. What it's doing, Mr. President, is getting you up above and away from it, and that's the most important thing of all. Ice and yesterday, as the eight o'clock came, er
[1:10:23] NIXON: They [laughter] watch Chain Tremor
[1:10:30] DEAN: [laughter]
[1:10:30] HALDEMAN: [laughter]
[1:10:33] MITCHELL: Well, went over, but I feel, I feel this is, I feel, at the very minimum you've got to have, John, whatever hell it is [unintelligible] John says he's sorry, er, [unintelligible] and I'm sorry, er
[1:10:56] EHRLICHMAN: Well, let's let that go ahead, though.
[1:11:09] MITCHELL: Yeah. What the hell! You don't plan to help, er,
[1:11:20] DEAN: I hadn't planned it. It wouldn't hurt to, you know, but I would've proved it, so why don't I get a hold of him? We'll see how we talk. I have to talk to the press, tomorrow. Er, let's let him go through the weekend. Today, after he has his hearing, suppose you take, er take care of now.
[1:11:54] DEAN: I will phone him there, that we might get him off around six o'clock, here, er you know, I felt that I should er I should say, right now, as reported through the wire services, that I can't give you on a private report at that is [crosstalk]
[1:12:13] NIXON: Now, Bob, what time is the, this meet?
[1:12:17] HALDEMAN: Well they off scheduled for 4:00, er we gave them this little brush, and er three, or eight, er, 3:30, or maybe, it's finally at, sure. Yeah, sure.
[1:12:29] NIXON: Fucked that asshole Moore, too, er asshole Moore.
[1:12:41] HALDEMAN: Yeah, beat him to death. I think they can be beat. What happened here?
[1:12:54] DEAN: Oh, you didn't need to, uh, [unintelligible] 40.
[1:12:57] MITCHELL: No, uh, you, John, or Ehrlichman carried very little weight.
[1:13:02] EHRLICHMAN: Most times, as a matter of fact.
[1:13:05] MITCHELL: I was going to say, yeah.
[1:13:09] NIXON: Nineteen [unintelligible]
[1:13:12] DEAN: Yeah, that was my problem. I had to go
[1:13:14] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[1:13:17] DEAN: You know, and, that's what, that's where he went, too, but I'm, hell, yeah.
[1:13:27] NIXON: Well, let's fight it, sir, and get the goddamn thing over with. That's the whole, that's the other thing that I would feel about this. I just feel,
[1:13:34] DEAN: You really wouldn't draw the line on--well, now we can't make a complete case, and everybody would go in there, that's what you mean. You agree on that? You agree on that?
[1:13:42] NIXON: Can't draw the line on executive privilege. Not on executive privilege. As far as,
[1:13:46] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[1:13:49] NIXON: your view, your and, uh, Dean's view. Particularly if, particularly if the Dean statement, they open with that. Now, your view of a Dean statement is to give that to the committee and not make it public, John?
[1:13:55] EHRLICHMAN: That's correct. I would think,
[1:14:00] NIXON: And say, yes, uh, give it to the committee for the purpose for the purpose of their investigation to limit the number of witnesses, yeah.
[1:14:06] EHRLICHMAN: Instead of a buckshot operation. And also to say this may help you in your investigation. This is everything we know, Mr. Chairman.
[1:14:13] MITCHELL: Everything we know, and nothing more. That's the whole purpose of that committee. Whatever information our our Counsel will furnish you, and there's nothing here that you can't have. This is all we know.
[1:14:28] DEAN: Now in addition to that, you will call that, uh, can't be well, which you can't have.
[1:14:32] MITCHELL: We think it's the best way to handle this in executive session. But that's to them.
[1:14:36] EHRLICHMAN: We'd say executive session because our government calls it an undercover. In addition to that, Counsel should be present.
[1:14:42] MITCHELL: All right. I would think so.
[1:14:48] EHRLICHMAN: Because you got the same problem. You see, when we ask, we apply, we ask for, uh, confidential basis, you know, which would be our statement said that applies to former, as well as present.
[1:14:55] NIXON: Now our statement has got to be a little bit more, a little more than the one damn thing, gentlemen. Bearing, uh, that I already informed relations with all these people worked down to confidential relations.
[1:15:09] DEAN: You have to say basically what I when I said that morning, uh, written interrogatory things is not the way to go at this. It's awkward. It makes you hurt.
[1:15:17] NIXON: I think that's based on what maybe [unintelligible] said. Because I don't think I said we would only write in the in a press conference. Written interrogatories, I don't I didn't say that at all.
[1:15:25] DEAN: Uh, Ziegler bounced back between the hall, the mile ladder.
[1:15:31] NIXON: Uh, I think that's what it was. I think that was Not that your letter was wrong, Ehrlichman.
[1:15:36] DEAN: The whole written interrogatory thing should be stepped out of fast, because
[1:15:44] MITCHELL: With respect to your ex-employees, you have the same problem. They're going into areas that were confidential communications, and uh certainly can make a good case for keeping them in executive session.
[1:15:56] DEAN: Right.
[1:15:58] EHRLICHMAN: May prefer, may prefer that this sets the precedent for the way we're going to treat investigations in the future, through the executive sessions. And then the privilege can be raised on legal, uh legal basis without having with guilt
[1:16:14] NIXON: By the Fifth Amendment, by like reading the Fifth Amendment, the implication always being that they're guilty.
[1:16:18] EHRLICHMAN: They are. They solved it for attorney-client privilege, so forth.
[1:16:20] MITCHELL: Well, yeah, in fact you already swore he wouldn't invoke the Fifth Amendment. He told them that.
[1:16:26] DEAN: [unintelligible] tell the truth.
[1:16:32] MITCHELL: All right, well hang tough. How long were you in Florida, this trip?
[1:16:41] DEAN: I was down there overnight. I was four hours on the witness stand testifying for the government in, uh, racket cases involving wiretapping that they're they're going to catch down there.
[1:16:52] NIXON: Wasn't that all, the wiretapping questions were going to cheer them? Especially the Democrats.
[1:16:57] DEAN: Except this has all had to do with the discretionary act of signing a piece of paper that I'm authorized by statute, and there were 27 good lawyers [unintelligible] question.
[1:17:07] MITCHELL: You know, uh, they, uh, with Hughes they were like wolves, really wanted. I was going to say [unintelligible]
[1:17:17] DEAN: You can be damn proud of who's who, and who kind of believes. I was going to say that Dean is really [unintelligible]
[1:17:28] MITCHELL: He has, Mr. President, no question about he was very, on the question of the tough thing. He got very soft, but uh they got into some tough things. Yeah, well also on the side, they wanted to know,
[1:17:41] DEAN: They're very polite, partly to our wives.
[1:17:46] MITCHELL: Yes, he's such a brave man.
[1:17:49] NIXON: Well,
[1:17:51] MITCHELL: you know how I feel for our people around here, everyone.
[1:17:58] NIXON: John, it's all right. Come in. You find out anything?
[1:18:16] DEAN: Uh, Congressman Rhodes' office, uh, they are calling, wanted to be down here for a while to speak with you about this, uh, happening. I guess that's why they called.
[1:18:28] NIXON: Why can't you come back?
[1:18:33] DEAN: Well, I thought you'd prefer to hear it in here.
[1:18:34] NIXON: Why don't you come back here? Is that all over for John now? Can he go there?
[1:18:40] MITCHELL: Yeah. But, uh,
[1:18:49] DEAN: One thing I don't want to do, [unintelligible]
[1:18:56] NIXON: I thought it very uh very cruel [unintelligible] I don't want to have
[1:19:11] MITCHELL: and it's staying. In fact,
[1:19:19] NIXON: It'll stay in, stay in public. That's the way it's going to work.
[1:19:29] MITCHELL: On the other hand, uh I would prefer, frankly, to go the other way, and completely clear the way. It's gotta come out that way anyway. That's my view, and uh
[1:19:42] DEAN: You remember, Jack Anderson [unintelligible] get out to release charges and innuendos, would be a hell of a lot worse than the story they would get out if you just let it out there.
[1:19:55] MITCHELL: Well, I don't know, but that's uh up to this point, the whole theory has been containment, show nothing. No, I was shifting,
[1:20:02] NIXON: As far as I'm concerned, we're active, working style. Keep writing the personal factors, all, hail all the anger.
[1:20:10] MITCHELL: That's what I asked to call you, to clear with you, make sure he was clear on this. Open the bomb bay in the attic, I don't think I'll be in for that.
[1:20:18] DEAN: That's the [unintelligible] that's the thing I have against the statement.
[1:20:27] MITCHELL: We're, might have, fit you or your father, and this first operation, I would see where it hits fall. You know, you get this grand jury thing up here,
[1:20:45] EHRLICHMAN: What we ought to have is a reading in the morning, on how this committee's been handling the report that's been progressed. That'll way lean the walk.
[1:21:00] MITCHELL: And uh I think, Howard, probably, can just as well bring you the good shit. Even though it hurts for a little while, you get it over with, people start looking for something else, and so forth.
[1:21:13] EHRLICHMAN: Nothing will deflect them from, uh, people expect this to go to November.
[1:21:16] MITCHELL: All right.
[1:21:17] DEAN: Now, when you do move, because they can move on uh and uh they will talk about the fact that they're making progress with the committee, they've done it in control, why didn't you tell us sooner? The other thing you have to remember,
[1:21:29] MITCHELL: is that this stuff is going to come out in that committee, whether we It's dry, it's gotta come out no matter what.
[1:21:37] NIXON: It did, and then I, and that looks like I tried to keep it from coming out. That's right.
[1:21:43] MITCHELL: That's why it's important that that statement be very comprehensive.
[1:21:48] UNKNOWN: Hello.
[1:21:53] NIXON: [unintelligible]
[1:21:56] DEAN: Sure looks like we braved, we braved it. They've had 5 days running of the files turned over to John Dean. That's 5 days running of the same story.
[1:22:07] EHRLICHMAN: A true, that the files should have been turned over.
[1:22:14] NIXON: Which I should have demanded. Why, that they, at all, what the hell was he doing as Counsel to the President, without getting, he was, I told him to conduct an investigation, and he did.
[1:22:26] MITCHELL: Well,
[1:22:37] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[1:22:52] NIXON: Baker has [unintelligible] Baker is quite smart. Howard is smart [unintelligible]
[1:22:57] MITCHELL: [unintelligible] I think he has, and I think he's puzzled [unintelligible] have a liaison with them.
[1:23:09] NIXON: Talked to the phone with Howard, but what he's talking about, he says Howard's coming. Good. What is happenings though? Does anybody, do anybody think the staff is flawed? I mean does made it leap?
[1:23:24] MITCHELL: No, I don't think they'll ever get there. But he must think that there may be, or Howard is scared that standard procedure has not been carried out [unintelligible]
[1:23:38] NIXON: [unintelligible]
[1:23:43] MITCHELL: A liaison finding out what the hell's going on.
[1:23:49] NIXON: All right, who's more out of it than he?
[1:23:51] UNKNOWN: Did he want John? Take Wallace Johnson.
[1:23:56] MITCHELL: Wallace Johnson. He's been wanting to talk to Dean. He's does one of these such a public position now that Wallace Johnson isn't be certain. Well, he will be in the bipartisan, but talking to these, but Wallace has a landslide, John.
[1:24:15] NIXON: Are they also under the impression that we got [unintelligible]
[1:24:21] MITCHELL: I think though that someone's [unintelligible]
[1:24:26] NIXON: What's he afraid of?
[1:24:38] MITCHELL: Well, the Washington Post made the major lead story in the circle words show that the security [unintelligible] shut up the town.
[1:24:52] NIXON: Whatever it is.
[1:25:00] MITCHELL: And, the really and you really have to protect the President [unintelligible]
[1:25:11] NIXON: The less said about us, the better. Cooperate fully [unintelligible]
[1:25:23] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[1:25:31] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible] and this will be a goddamned satisfying trip, shouldn't it? Shouldn't it? And answers all of them. Won't say that to them.
[1:25:46] NIXON: We can cross-examine, sure. You hear anybody, they say well, oh, they'll say the reason you don't answer is because you have something to argue, they're they're doing that. In legal manner, you don't want them to be uh used for a unfair way there. You have somebody charged. It's tough hell to have somebody charged, we're not answering questions. [unintelligible]
[1:26:13] MITCHELL: Yeah, there's no question about it.
[1:26:18] NIXON: Well, we ought to, you can act about this, in the open session. We got problems. We got to stand up. Take their conferences,
[1:26:33] DEAN: Take both the fact that they've hurt us. [unintelligible]
[1:26:40] NIXON: Where's the resolution?
[1:26:44] DEAN: They don't have any hearing scheduled. I looked at that now as they're not holding any hearings so it's impossible to go to court right now. But if something passes, then they'll have to deal with it.
[1:26:55] MITCHELL: It does and might now is a good time to do it.
[1:27:00] NIXON: Much better now than later. It's why that, that's what I did also with every country. The fact is you don't want to get into the like in the 70s. Damn hard, one, I want to try to get these things in a little, a little heat now.
[1:27:11] MITCHELL: Got to have them figured. We don't, but as far as the budget [unintelligible] 72.
[1:27:24] NIXON: Oh, we're going to fight that through hell, and all. That's part of the reason for the '72 election. It's turned the tide in that country round, and cater on the foreign policy thing to hear. Now in foreign policy, they took the doves, the asshole, harshly. They have taken the body blow from this POW thing, that's what, that's been something [unintelligible]. Nobody would ever dream would happen.
[1:27:45] MITCHELL: Couldn't be told.
[1:27:49] NIXON: Do you, you anybody now questioning the bombing of December?
[1:27:55] MITCHELL: And every one of those guys saying it. They, all of them said, "Thank God we did it, or we wouldn't be home." And, damn true.
[1:28:03] NIXON: Do you hear anybody, isn't that true? Everybody's talking about them. Did you hear anybody question, for example, it they all saying the President did the right thing, and he would be in all that. Now what, good did that produce, then? They all say Jane Fonda and the rest, that they, they prolonged the war, and they could understand the senators and Congress and they kept this in captivity.
[1:28:17] MITCHELL: [unintelligible]
[1:28:20] NIXON: Close back terribly in that respect. Now, they want to cut the budget. I mean, the military budget, because we can't talk to,
[1:28:29] MITCHELL: Talk with the Russians. The SALT talks, launch a force reduction talks, all would be out the window.
[1:28:42] NIXON: Howard kissed your butt didn't he? [unintelligible]
[1:28:54] MITCHELL: Well, [unintelligible]
[1:29:00] NIXON: Well, I haven't spoken directly [unintelligible] told everybody I mean about Connally, which seems to [unintelligible] so upset.
[1:29:12] MITCHELL: I had Wayne Hayes in telling me the same thing [unintelligible]
[1:29:30] NIXON: Let's watch
[1:29:33] MITCHELL: and let's watch and let he him get out in the middle of this fight. And it'll stir up things on our side, which is good, too.
[1:29:51] NIXON: Hang who? All of you. Let Rockefeller raid, Hatfield, Percy, Brooke. Good, that's why they want, Hatfield, then let the center problem [unintelligible]
[1:30:08] MITCHELL: Yeah, there there'll be problems.
[1:30:10] NIXON: There'd never be a problem.
[1:30:12] MITCHELL: Rock, Percy, yeah.
[1:30:13] NIXON: You know who it's going to be. John Connally shifts [unintelligible] Connally, right? House of Rockefeller, right?
[1:30:22] MITCHELL: If John if John Connally will put the time that [unintelligible] out there.
[1:30:26] NIXON: If he'll get out there.
[1:30:28] MITCHELL: If he'll get out That's right.
[1:30:30] NIXON: That's what I meant. Yes.
[1:30:31] MITCHELL: I'm not sure John's ready for that long, long, yeah, [unintelligible]
[1:30:38] NIXON: No, I don't think he's ready either.
[1:30:40] MITCHELL: to make the money and enjoy life.
[1:30:44] UNKNOWN: [unintelligible]
[1:30:56] NIXON: Well, I think he wants the nomination and I'm not sure he could he could be nominated. And there really isn't, they would never accept the man, not John Connally, never.
[1:31:05] MITCHELL: They can't. John,
[1:31:10] NIXON: as Rockefeller did in '68, the liberals will never take Connally.
[1:31:17] MITCHELL: The same is true in that group.
[1:31:20] NIXON: And Rockefeller was not for Goldwater, he didn't come out against Goldwater, but it's just that, oh oh, he never did, he didn't lead, he didn't lead Republicans for Johnson though, that's the difference.
[1:31:31] MITCHELL: That's right.
[1:31:32] NIXON: And yet that, but by his not supporting Goldwater, he destroyed his chances to ever be nominated for president.
[1:31:39] MITCHELL: That's right.
[1:31:40] NIXON: And so it is, with Connally. McGovern is finished, Goldwater is, just as Goldwater is finished. No way McGovern could ever be nominated again, no way Goldwater could again. But they've they, and the kind of people that were for them can stop somebody else. Don't you think that's a really an analogy?
[1:31:57] MITCHELL: It is, it sure is. Besides the fact that this Republican Party to get that convention, 30% of the delegates,
[1:32:09] NIXON: there never will be a majority of them. But there never, they can throw it open. Because the Liberals will never take
[1:32:19] MITCHELL: That's my other, I'm not sure he can