Nixon & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and Executive privilege

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Okay, the first point that he didn't want to discuss on the phone is that all of which he talked about is just standing for the law of means.

But the problem is that there is a very clear case for conspiracy to commit perjury and a very clear case for conspiracy to obstruct justice.

Both of those cases can be made and they can be sustained.

And if you put in a special prosecutor or go to a warrant commission,

The problem is, for any practical purposes, if you bring in a special prosecutor, even with a grand jury, you can't limit his authority.

Basically, as Scott's house judge, however they call one, that judge

The greatest danger we have is a runaway grand jury.

The best thing we've done up to now was the superb handling of the grand jury, but this time the first case.

And our objective now totally should be to control the grand jury and to control what happens within the grand jury.

He says the problem on the obstruction thing is that everyone in the White House and a hell of a lot of people are participants in one way or another.

In the case where it says, except himself, who didn't say what he was told to say, it's been there for a long time.

Was he made for this thing?

I don't know.

He claims that he was told to get in the line and say certain things, and he didn't say them because he didn't mean to.

He didn't mean to do it.

I don't know.

I'm sorry.

It's good that he takes it that way.

And then he says, this is why he feels so strongly that the president needs one independent person to advise him.

He was a good student, trial lawyer.

He said, you've got nobody in here who knows the trial lawyer.

You've got nobody in here who's a criminal lawyer.

He goes to him and he said, I feel this very strongly because from the start, I've got some good trial lawyers.

And I now see the difference.

That's right.

He says, looking at it, the advice I would give to the argument, I would make at this point is that the worst thing you can do now is overreact.

And if Monty goes to Sirica and says, you know, we're going to talk about discharging and all that,

Okay.

If you had a criminal lawyer advising you, a trial lawyer, he would say to you now, the main thing is don't give any unnecessary targets.

For God's sake, don't grant them.

Things may get better rather than worse.

Sir Rick is on dangerous ground.

He's screwing things up.

He's forging the limits and all that stuff.

There's a lot of possibilities here.

He's been flooding his new lawyers representing the same God for about

So I said, well, okay, so what you're saying is that in, uh, digging, uh, what you did, you said, well, basically, you know, you said, first of all, get the best criminal lawyer possible, because none of us can render good advice to the president.

I didn't mention that, I'm sure.

Uh, in my view, you're doing that to a degree, at least.

And a writer who studies something, a writer, doesn't go to that group of people.

Number two, don't overreact this week in Costa Rica and all that sort of thing.

So in the first place, all you have as of now is this newspaper hearsay as to what McCord is going to do.

I talked to Ron.

Yeah, of course it says along.

And I said, well, how the hell was that?

And he said, you know, Ryan, come on, Ryan, you know, his name is not safe, you know.

And I said, you know, it's safe for the judge.

Oh, it's safe for the judge, you know.

And I would just guess, that's just history on it.

That's the real question I've got here.

The argument is you can't write this script the way you'd like it.

You gotta write it the way it is.

And, you know, the options you have are for people to go around muttering to themselves the question, must be having something to cover up.

Or, my god, you sure as hell did have something to cover up.

Given those, there's usually two options.

Alright, let's come to something else.

What would he say about a name for a director?

What do they say if the grand jury calls and everyone asks about it?

First of all, what he says is that if the allegation for court goes to Sir Edgar and makes under oath the same allegations that we understand from the newspaper he made to the committee guy, and that then is turned over to the grand jury and made public, in other words, we have knowledge of charges, actual charges that are made, that you should then issue a statement or should issue a presidential statement over the weekend.

that says the president has instructed his staff, as he did last summer, and as he's consistently had since then, to go on with the full investigation of all these matters.

And on any charge of wrongdoing of any kind, every staff member is under strict orders to comply fully with the process and so on.

He says, if need his name, which as of now he's not.

He said, for God's sake, don't react to this paper story on your side.

If need.

He said, if need his name, then send me to the grand jury.

But for God's sake, don't take his privilege.

Hang on to every ounce of privilege you've got.

Because need means it.

He's got to hang on to every bit of privilege he's got.

And he said, so do all the rest of us.

And we've got to hang on to executive privilege on the question of any conversation we have with other people in the White House who are also president's agents and that sort of thing.

Not just part of the communication with the president, but then he goes back to Irvin's statement on privilege relating to congressional employees and staff.

He wouldn't give away anything.

Not very damn much.

But yeah, it's cooperation.

Maximum cooperation and cooperative work.

obviously anything that's involved me i would answer and be responsive to anything that involved my communication with anybody else here i would take preference

I have an answer regarding anything of my own, an activity of my own.

If someone else tells me or...

I can say, yes, I cover the coast, but I'm going to tell them what coast it's on.

The first reason was each other on that earth.

One of our duties is to know as much as we can about what's going on.

And communicate as necessary that knowledge to you and others in here, and carry on.

So what culture really succeeds here?

He says, you understand.

It affects him more than anybody else does.

He says, what was he saying?

There's a good question to eat most of it anyway.

I'm serious.

I love eating it.

I'm trying to say that, but that's what I mean.

It's only just to get them in.

You know that.

I don't think he gives them that because he'll sink everybody off.

No.

He'll take it all inside.

If he gets them in.

He'll save me, I pray.

That's what he says.

Hey, John.

He's got to be at least, all he needs is fire.

He doesn't need to go to jail this far.

He needs to fire when he's on.

I challenged Chuck on the conspiracy that he was going to perjury.

He said, what do you mean by that?

I said, I don't know.

He said, my guru has instructed I won't testify.

I said, that is true.

I did.

And he said, you met with me.

I said, now Chuck, you're stating something that is not your knowledge.

He met with me.

But he met with me in order to be questioned in the manner that I'm going to answer any questions my guru did not know.

He asked me to do a question time, so he would know what kind of head was up against.

And so was that conspiracy to commit perjury, even if the murderer did in fact later commit perjury, or even at the time he was answering these questions to commit perjury?

Is it not a mean advice that you can tell us, or is it necessarily a mean advice that you can tell us?

No, this is not.

Is it okay that you're making a right of discharge?

Well, okay.

He said, okay, I take all that money, but I will simply say that it was a conspiracy, it was a murder, and it was a conspiracy to stop the customer.

The letter?

He says too many people know that those people, the money was paid to those people.

He said, all I know is that there were funds raised to turn it off, but they're going to buy your speech.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm not sure he is, I'm not sure he is

That's why he says, if you hit a guy that knows criminal law, he might know what the facts are and can decide what he's doing.

None of you and none of us have the ability to do that.

What Chuck says is, if you've got to face the fact that the worst feels strong, it's the worst.

Mark, the presidency under Richard Nixon, is already done.

It's there.

There is a cloud.

But it's a little black cloud that's there.

So now, any of the things you're talking about,

What you most likely will do is see that drop cloud and start a rainstorm and there will be no way to stop it.

What I'm saying to you is, you've got the cloud a little bit.

Just keep it as small a little cloud as you can.

It's like drops all over the paper.

Again, going back to the mistake you're all making as you're looking at the water heat.

Water heat is not a problem.

If that's all that happens,

If we were down on June 18th, I would have done this.

I would have been with everything you're saying.

All right.

We're good to go.

Just give me a minute.

All right, tell Chuck to talk to him.

Chuck.

All right.

Okay.

Chuck.

Sure.

We'll try to send him.

Okay.

All right.

I'm sure he handled it such a way that he's got a little bit of a problem.

Let's see what I had in mind.

I wish I could understand what I was struggling with.

I recall the composition back in the very time I was on the project.

You know, Chuck was always going to take my work and talk about that.

And he was always talking about it.

He was always talking about it.

And he was always talking about it.

.

I've discussed this so many times in this program, but one of the reasons, I mean I don't know how many, but I think one of the reasons is that all I've heard is that all I've heard is that it's important.

But if somebody left it at you, that's the problem.

Yep, that's the moment I need.

And he wasn't there.

I don't think we need to worry about this.

She must be clearly aware of the stuff that will leave the party.

But I don't think, if we were right back at it now, because of the election, we would never have done it.

That's right.

I have a question.

This is an eyesight issue.

I didn't know at the time, but I think that's what really is the question.

There's no question that's when Chuck saw he had the same control of the .

Well, I have a funny thought.

I don't think there's a way...

That's certainly, before you come out of your bike, you've got to line up with others.

You don't have to sit in line with other people.

It's just going to come out anyway.

So it's not inherently not.

Of course, sometimes the plane is made very well.

Or some of them.

Some things may.

But it may not.

The plane is played to the brink.

You can't get all bad grades.

I said, what about Christmas Eve?

He said, that would be a problem.

He said he doesn't think of them.

He's not worried about any of them at all.

I don't know what that means.

Well, I hadn't thought of maybe.

I hadn't thought of that.

Maybe crap's going on.

The idea of a special counsel, I don't quite see what the hell that's going to tell me.

I don't think I've made any decisions about it.

I don't know what you've done.

How do you get it to that point?

You know?

And after you've dealt with it, you've got to do what you've done to it.

Okay.

Don't you think you can say you've got it done with all of it?

Is that what you did?

I'm sure.

Send your old man back to jail.

I'm not sure if this is a problem with raising that one.

I don't know.

which has to be quite a bit of a place, just to show you the inspiration.

You can get into it kind of in an interesting way.

You can get into an argument, you may have to do it in four to seven.

He agreed to it, but he didn't react to us and said that it isn't there yet.

What he's objecting to saying anything now really is that there's nothing to respond to.

I've been asked a question today for a couple of questions.

What about the grand jury?

Somebody was calling to say they don't know what to do.

I thought I would get away with being quiet.

What is it that you would like to say?

All members of the White House will cooperate as we have.

Why don't you try to work out with Chuck?

Here's what I have.

are ready at any time.

All of the White House staff have been instructed since last summer.

investigation of this, and as they have in the past, will continue to be a little bit of a jury.

We've got to get it lined up to what he would say.

I think that's the fallback position.

Let me put it this way.

The blanket extension, well, it's not an acquitting, it's nothing.

The point I'm making is that the blanket extension of executive privilege which prohibits the testifying on the Hill is not an acquitting.

Yeah, because this involves any charges they will be able to answer, any charges of criminal conduct they will have to answer.

Is that correct?

Well, privilege.

Privilege is not problematic.

Well, playing is pretty good at words.

Let us figure out

I don't understand.

I mean, I don't understand.

Have volunteered.

That's what I was going to say.

Have volunteered.

At this time, as they have in the past, we'll be here at any time for the grantee to answer questions on the package.

And except a lot of it is different from what I've heard, I'm not sure what they've been called, and about the separation of powers, before it was called.

and all of the charges related to criminal activities.

Is that right?

That's the proper place for such charges to be responded to, to be heard, to be investigated, not to go up in public lights or whatever.

But I'm just saying that the junkie stuff is, you know, the conception of the art.

Now, John's view was, in fact, it was still, well, regarding the claims, I would plenty agree.

I got that old scanner for that better.

That's better.

Ironically, Rogers and Boots were

Well, I've said as far as the presidency is concerned, it's just a crime.

It's a code.

That's what Kevin said.

He said, well, what are you trying to do?

It's a crime.

Oh, yeah, I guess so.

Not really, but I will.

I'll tell you what else.

I'm not sure you can get the rest of it.

I'm not sure there's anything.

I'm not sure the rest of it's alright.

I don't know if that guy has the basis of Colson, the money.

Colson, Colson, I don't know whether he is.

Colson, I don't know.

He is in the sense of being involved in the operation, but I don't think he knows.

But I have Colson in terms of the promise and the pregnancy.

Is that what he's concerned about, the pregnancy?

Or no, that is quite clear.

Or does he know?

I don't know.

That's the only person involved in it.

Let's look at the options.

Should we say what is worse, the cover or the crime?

Should we say the cover?

Mine is, I guess it's nice and open, really.

I call it through, and I say it's nice and open.

It's open.

They'll let it all hang out for school.

The argument's the better, but it's what you're going to get hung anyway.

Chuck's argument is it does not.

It is.

He thinks you can avoid it.

A lot.

It really feels that.

It's very well behind the scenes.

We're operating on the basis of all the assumptions of the words for every possible point.

So far it's been pretty out of the section.

As I say, the world goes on and on.

Hey, it's bad for you to get bogged down in this.

Yeah, I'm doing it because you get it.

Sure.

You inevitably start thinking everybody else is spending all day thinking about it, too, or say hi.

Well, people are very good around here.

It's a good thing, of course, it turns out, too.

Yeah, I mean, it's so important that I've got it right.

I had another thing.

The one break, I must have it.

And I'm closing it.

And it feels totally rough.

I mean, we started with that, but I don't know if it's really good.

It's a little closer.

It's mostly not recollectional.

It's got a promise in it.

It's a promise in it.

No, sir.

He's saying that I think it's true.

I don't know which.

To make it specific, but he did.

Because he didn't mean to.

I don't see it as illegal.

They play the other Saturday and sit there and use the drive.

They throw in a sentence.

Why can't we use the promise of God?

They play this one over.

You know, Bob, it's very true that...

Yeah, I do now, but I was kind of interested in it as a must-do.

But you know, I'm surprised that the other thing is that the diamonds don't do that much.

It's hard to think presently, and to think Chuck is right.

It's a nasty business, and our friends are kind of questioning us about it.

They say, well, I'm cooperating, and I'm embarrassed, but I don't know what the hell I can do except cooperate.

See, they might say, why don't you fire everybody?

Why don't you fire everybody now?

Huh?

Why don't you fire everybody now?

In fact, you said you would do it.

I mean, because of that.

No.

That's what we've got to do.

All right.

There wasn't any question of what he had done, but he did.

There was no argument as to whether he took the coat from the guy.

There was no argument as to whether he exercised it.

The question was whether there was any connection and whether, you know, Chuck, did anything wrong.

He got three questions wrong.

But he did make the call, Chuck.

And he did say no to Douglas.

And he did accept the coat.

No, no.

There was no question.

Nobody argued with him.

See, the point is, I mean, there are those that might see just nobody next, but they might see just, well, just get better than one of us, and we're going to get rid of them.

All right, here we go.

That's Dean.

Yeah.

He's got very close to Dean.

Dean could be.

I mean, Dean is blind, so that could come to that, Dean.

What does that do?

And that's the thing, you're throwing any baby to the wolves.

If you're only going to make the wolves more hungry and food-filled, then you've got some more babies.

And they will see that.

This stuff crawled up here, say, about two months ago.

It's very big.

All the stuff, the surveillance, it's very big.

I'm very happy about that.

I'm very proud of her.

Hello?

Oh yeah.

All of them did.

That's what we can't give up.

OK.

They have their best piece of security.

Oh, oh yeah.

And then the questions are right away.

I don't know that, ah, yeah, Kennedy's people did.

Well, that's a select committee.

And then, well, Kennedy's not on the select committee, but he did get rid of his liberty earlier.

But when they were around, they weren't sure if they could turn their stuff over to him.

And Weicker is subpoenaed to liberty.

And now it's going to be a little bit of a letting go of the security.

.

Well, my authority, I'm sure, is that money was paid for to be in there.

Right.

Yeah, I think I'd better look into that.

I wonder if anybody will do anything to that.

That's one thing we have to do.

That's what I'd love to do.

It's getting better.

I'd like to give him some information on where that money came from.

I think the idea of trying something a little different.

All right.

I think you're right.

Don't you?

Yeah, probably.

No, I mean, I think, I think you're right.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

We don't do everything right.

We have a problem.

That's right.

What I meant is I'm speaking now basically of our newspaper friends and congressional friends.

I've got to give up on one of them.

I can't keep going on forever.

The president made a great speech.

All of a sudden, they can't keep saying this.

They can't write the same column over and over.

You know, you're right though, you're right.

I have been very opposed to this before it takes.

Thanks all.

Well, I haven't heard a lot about it.

Maybe I haven't.

It's not a good thing that you can get it.

But you see, I don't, when they talk about a special counsel, I think that would be a pretty good issue.

Well, it's like, you know, Chuck remembers the good old days of the campaign, which I know he misses.

You know, and frankly, I didn't spend time.

I did it at the end of every day.

I'd talk an hour or so.

You know, it's a funny thing.

I was thinking of that Friday that I left.

I remember I told him.

I think in my case, I've got to practice what I preach.

I've got to stay out of this goddamn thing.

And I've got to just take the heat of the thing as long as I can.

We've done it several times.

You've got to open it and find out whether you can.

You've got to know yourself.

We have explored the possibilities.

And we've raised the bill to end this exploration.

But you see, Bob, don't you agree on the special counsel?

It doesn't help us any publicly what the Christ is going to do.

But what does it do?

The point is, what good is it going to do?

What the hell is the spiritual counsel going to do?

Most of his advice is very about the legal matters of the life.

But I don't quite, or maybe there's an argument I'm missing.

Just to look at the whole, to say the things that John said,

Is that something that sounds like a good idea that hasn't been talked about in terms of all of its implications?

If we're talking about it.

I don't think it's a good idea.

It would be a good idea if it was just the guy.

Yeah.

And the guy had to trust it.

It was available.

It was effective.

It was good.

Now that, you know, what's his name?

Gene has the same name, but we need to correct him now.

I should be seeing the lawyer on that day.

Well, I can't go back to that, but it's something like, you know, to a verb.

Talk to me.

What I hate to do is to rely on other people who will talk to the special counsel.

Chuck's point is that the people you rely on are somebody who should be using the special counsel to say, I'm driving incompetence.

Most lawyers are supposedly incompetent to advise that area.

That's right.

They don't know what the defenses are.

What would be the offense to do that?

And particularly, you've got, I want to tell you, you've got that money.

You've got, you've got $1,000.

That is, that is the game.

This is the bottom of the federal government.

That's what we say.

This is what the federal government has to do for this place.

That's the story.

That's what you're going to tell.

And I'm asking you to do it.

Yeah.

And you will have to do it for a game.

You want to do it for a game.

.

I think he was on that bus or something.

Well, you know, I didn't know that I had to be made up to say it.

I didn't know that I had to be made up to say it.

If it is there, I think you've got to confront with it and say, all right, now then, go up.

Just want to get out there and do that.

All right, probably.

All right.

That's right.

Your campaign for 120,000.

Bells.

That's where it came from.

I think it was recorded.

I don't know if it was recorded or not.

Yeah, I'm sorry, because we bothered.

I think there was an interruption or something.

I don't know if it was recorded or something.

I'm not sure if it was recorded.

Yeah.

But this is really a way of getting it to play.

It's not a jackass one, so...

They're not going to get special counsel.

They don't have .

So at least let's help .

And let's make this .

The other thing that isn't all bad is the core of the building.

If it relates to the water gate, it's good.

The intention of the water gate is to make it better than the base.

We can't hope that they're not going to look into that, because that's too interesting.

well that i think is their right this area and it's that one that i don't know my investment is i was told that there is a committee in the money that i got your defense but i'm sitting in what it means

He makes his best amends on blackmail.

See, that's what he wants a criminal lawyer to do, to make amends on blackmail.

Jesus Christ.

He admits his concern on that basis.

He didn't pay us.

It was paid over at the committee.

We didn't even have to, I guess.

It was paid.

It was not paid up to us, nobody else.

They got a little money for it.

Right.

Okay, I don't know who the man is.

At least I'm glad to give him a whacker to be involved.

Thank you.

Nixon & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and Executive privilege

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Also recorded on March 27, 1973

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