Nixon, Ehrlichman & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and John Dean

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EhrlichmanHi. I got stuck on the phone and asked [unintelligible] start with you. Oh yeah. Yeah.

EhrlichmanI talked to Dean and Mitchell. Mitchell's ready. Just finished with him now, then he had to call somebody else so I came on over.

EhrlichmanWe reviewed this draft statement with Mitchell after we talked to Dean. There were a few a few changes that would have to be made and this would be the gist of it. You may have spoken with Mitchell and Dean. Mitchell thinks it's right. Frankly, that will get rid of Dean with the Mitchell.

EhrlichmanDean doesn't care what it says so long as it indicates that he's volunteered to go. People like that.

Ehrlichman"The President has asked me to say that when charges were made that a member of the White House staff, John Dean, was implicated in the planning of the burglary of Democratic headquarters, Mr. Dean came to the President and suggested that he be be permitted to testify before the grand jury in our part in regard to the matter.

EhrlichmanThe President encouraged Mr. Dean to do so to clear his name, and offered to waive any executive privilege which might be an impediment to his testifying. Mr. Dean will inform the U.S. Attorney of his intention and desire to testify, the grand jury convening.

EhrlichmanThe President feels that since charges of a serious legal nature have been leveled, the judicial grand jury forum is the proper one which to have the facts heard." Then you have something else, uh, in the word.

Ehrlichman"Confidentiality I don't think it's a point of evidence of cover-up, blah blah blah, something like that. Back to that a little.

EhrlichmanThere you go.

EhrlichmanNo objection. Everybody agrees that he should go.

NixonThe problem is, the point is he's going to say it sometime, so we might as well get out in front of it. Everybody agree to that?

EhrlichmanNow, we've still got the problem of what he says.

NixonAnd it won't go away by not By not having a-

EhrlichmanWell it's--

NixonSherman Adams, that went away. That's right. Adams went away. Baker.

EhrlichmanI hope we're forced into it sooner than later.

NixonThe purpose wasn't like Baker, they know. Baker and Jenkins, Jenkins, you know. Right. Right.

EhrlichmanWell, the point is-

EhrlichmanIf you if you cast this in terms of John Dean wanting to clear his name you're in you're in a stronger position than if you say, "I wanted to put a White House- "

NixonMm-hmm.

Ehrlichman"The President has asked me to say that when charges were made that a member of the White House staff, John Dean, was implicated in the planning of the burglary of Democratic headquarters—"

NixonThe charges were made when, what were those charges?

EhrlichmanThis will be-

NixonWell of course they're rumors. No no. What I mean is, I want to indicate why I've waited 5 days, so I must say when charges were made yesterday.

NixonThat's what he that would be current. When when the charges were were were uh were uh were reported to have been made to a Senate committee yesterday, in private session, in executive private session, in secret session.

EhrlichmanYeah.

NixonUp to that time, that's the only thing we've had, up to that time it was all newspaper stuff, but that when uh that uh uh that Dean was was personally implicated, or whatever.

Ehrlichman"Asked me to say that when charges were reported to have been made in secret session to a Senate committee yesterday that a member of the White House staff, John Dean, was implicated in the planning of the burglary of Democratic headquarters,

EhrlichmanMr. Dean came to the President and suggested that he be be permitted—" You want to put burglary of Democratic- In the Watergate case?

NixonIn the Watergate case, whatever we want to say.

EhrlichmanNo, well I want to make it as narrow as possible.

NixonFine. Fine.

EhrlichmanAll right, fine. "Dean- In the planning of the burglary of Democratic headquarters, Mr. Dean came to the President and suggested that he be be permitted to testify before the grand jury—"

NixonAnd suggested, requested Mr. Dean requested of the President, I wouldn't say, requested of the President requested that the President permit him

Nixonto appear voluntarily before the grand jury to answer these charges.

EhrlichmanPermit him to appear-

NixonYeah, to appear voluntarily-

EhrlichmanVoluntarily.

NixonBefore the grand jury,

Ehrlichman"to appear voluntarily and testify before the grand jury in regard to this matter.

EhrlichmanThe President encouraged Mr. Dean to do so to clear his name." Well,

NixonNo, that the uh well, the uh that the President uh the President encouraged him to do so. The President uh uh approved the request, because he believed, because he believed Mr. Dean should have opportunity [pause] to charges.

NixonAnd, and I'd say before a legally constituted- uh or something like that, which I have that somewhere, but go ahead.

Ehrlichman"Now, the President offered to waive any executive privilege which might be an impediment to his testifying."

NixonRather than offered, I would say the uh has uh has uh has waived. Right. How do I make that offer?

NixonYou'd have to to Dean. Just say, just say, "with the approval of the President." Why not say with the approval of the President?

NixonNo no, "The President has authorized Mr. Dean, rather than- to waive-

— 1 min 11 s with no transcribed speech —

Ehrlichmanthat have been made against Mr. Dean, that have been alleged to be made against Mr. Dean.

EhrlichmanAnd, therefore, you know, it feels very strongly that you should say

Ehrlichmanand so Dean waiving executive privilege regarding

Ehrlichmanhis personal involvement.

NixonAll right, well I'm cheerful about it. Any personal, his personal involvement in any criminal

NixonI don't think that goes far enough.

EhrlichmanHis, what he said was to waive executive privilege for any personal involvement in Watergate.

NixonWhy don't you put it that way, if he does. In the Watergate

Nixonincident.

EhrlichmanIn the planning or execution?

NixonYeah, that'd be better. In the planning or execution of the Watergate

EhrlichmanThat'd be all right.

NixonNow that, see, Bob was trying to get him to narrow it.

EhrlichmanI know, but what happens then when we shell,

EhrlichmanPlanning or execution.

NixonOf the Watergate, [whispering] Watergate.

EhrlichmanWatergate crime?

NixonWell, Watergate.

NixonJust a second. Well, I don't care about that. Watergate.

EhrlichmanAll right.

EhrlichmanPlanning or execution of Watergate, the Watergate, the incident, incident Watergate.

EhrlichmanThen, "The President is authorizing waiver of executive privilege regarding

Ehrlichmanhis, Dean's, conversations

Ehrlichmanpersonal involvement in the planning or execution of Watergate.

NixonLet's read that to Dean right now. Did you get them?

NixonSend him up here. We'll plan how to get a small scene up.

Ehrlichman"Also, Dean will inform the US Attorney of his intention to desire to testify in grand jury proceedings.

EhrlichmanThe President feels that since charges of" wait a minute.

Ehrlichman"The President feels that since charges of such a serious, legal nature having been lodged, the judicial, that is, grand jury, forum is the proper one in which to have the facts heard in a judicious"

NixonYes, or we could just say, grand jury, the grand jury is the proper forum

Ehrlichmanto have these matters,

Nixonto have those that,

Ehrlichmanis the proper forum to have these matters uh heard.

Nixonwith the, with the

Ehrlichmandue regard,

EhrlichmanThe grand jury is the proper forum

Ehrlichmanto have charges,

NixonFully heard.

Ehrlichmanwith due regard for the

Ehrlichmanof individuals accused of wrongdoings.

NixonIt's the way I'd say it. Say how we can put that fine.

EhrlichmanYeah.

EhrlichmanI'm trying to say that to get to the grand jury and charge it is a judicial forum,

NixonAnd, how about hearing the Senate?

Ehrlichmanand a part of,

Ehrlichmanwe've got a whole bunch of white papers supposed to be read there,

Ehrlichmanand I want to see what

NixonSee, uh what I'd just say

Nixonthat he could go on and add that, um,

Nixonat a later in another in due with, uh,

EhrlichmanIn due course, yeah.

NixonIn due, at, uh, and in due, at the, uh, at the, uh,

Nixonresponsible way.

EhrlichmanYeah, we can tell Ronald in view, in the irresponsible way in the Senate.

NixonThat is, that's what he's saw.

NixonIn this investigation, they

NixonI can feel that we don't have to deal with the Senate thing.

EhrlichmanYeah, but Ron wants to deal with it, because he had to say something about it.

EhrlichmanHe said the investigation date.

NixonYeah, it's quickly evident that, uh,

Nixonthat, um, that the hearing would not be

Nixonthe ordinary, judicial,

EhrlichmanJudicial considered,

Nixonand considered,

Ehrlichmanand that,

Ehrlichmanand the nature of the charges

Ehrlichmanis a matter that's better in the judicial sphere.

NixonYou've got that down? Let's see.

NixonWhatever he goes to say,

EhrlichmanSure. He can say after, in other words, this, the President's authorized him to do this, that, then they, first question, why? Why doesn't he go to the Senate?

NixonRight.

EhrlichmanAnd Ron can say, and Ron can say first, because, it's because this is a, this is a

Ehrlichmancriminal charge and the proper place to consider charges of the grand jury's jurisdiction.

NixonRight.

EhrlichmanNext, we have the example, in view of the irresponsible or reckless way that they,

Ehrlichmanthat it became clear that it's not the proper forum to adjudicate this charge.

NixonThat's right.

NixonHi.

HaldemanHow are you?

NixonHave you talked to John? Did you talk to Mitchell?

HaldemanYes, sir.

EhrlichmanWait a minute.

HaldemanBoth of them.

EhrlichmanWe've got a near-Dean statement, which we'd like you to hear, Bob.

Ehrlichmanand get your reaction.

HaldemanWhere's Dean now?

EhrlichmanWell, Dean is to put out the, to,

Ehrlichmanput out a statement that the President has authorised him to waive executive privilege,

Ehrlichmanand that he's informed the US Attorney that he wishes to appear before the grand jury.

NixonJust get it done.

HaldemanFine.

EhrlichmanAnd I uh the President and uh

Ehrlichmanand, of course, the judicial proceeding is a proper proceeding

NixonRight.

Ehrlichmanand have the facts brought out.

NixonYeah.

EhrlichmanAnd that is what Mitchell indicated to me what should be, and he said the President could last at the Senate.

Ehrlichmanon the ground that

Ehrlichmanthat's a circus.

HaldemanCircus, yeah.

EhrlichmanOne of taking the

NixonWatergate taste in there.

HaldemanDid Ron take some of that?

EhrlichmanWell, if he did, it's

NixonIt's too brief anyway.

NixonIt's so brief.

NixonWhat I'm going to say is so,

Nixonon that. Show's briefing, I'm not going to say much about that, Bob.

EhrlichmanWell, I understand, that's my concern. Of course.

EhrlichmanLeaves a lot of corners [crosstalk] shut for somebody.

NixonIt's so long.

HaldemanCannot uh they could always say,

Haldeman"Well, of course, what the contest is is the central,

Haldemanthe uh whatever, but the other thing I'm talking about it too.

EhrlichmanThis is later, this is for later.

NixonI don't see it done for Arthur Burns.

NixonI like that through the Senate, Bob, you've done that, then.

EhrlichmanSo then, I go on the text of this, other than that?

NixonHas that been answered, war withdrawal?

EhrlichmanNo, they didn't.

EhrlichmanI talked to War Hawks, and he helped out a whole lot.

NixonWell, actually, what we call is, uh, it's uh, going to be very helpful.

EhrlichmanOh, great.

NixonWe call on the people to support the President's veto, in order to save their bucks. I call on the American people not to cut the defense budget.

Ehrlichmana story. Yeah. This would be a hard [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanShow's breath would be at most at 5:00 and they'd want to be based

Ehrlichmanon a right, made for Ron's story early on the--

NixonAll right, John.

HaldemanI don't

HaldemanI have climbed myself [unintelligible]

HaldemanI know I sure would hate [unintelligible]

HaldemanAs far as my public concern,

HaldemanYeah.

NixonTry and see the headline.

HaldemanRight. And doing it at 10:00. Yeah.

EhrlichmanYeah. Then they got all this picked up, then.

NixonLet me tell you, it doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference, Johnny.

Ehrlichmanget out ahead of it, Johnny.

Haldemanget out of it. It's a beach jumper.

HaldemanWell, the other way they'll write the story, and so on and so on.

Haldemanthey'll still write the story. [unintelligible]

HaldemanWell, they talk about seeing what else can be done, and they might want to talk about

EhrlichmanI know. He suggested that we eliminate the word "executive" and say "waiver of privilege." And we discussed the problem, so, well, that, you

Ehrlichmanknow, what should be the waiver? And we put that back, and then I suggested to him that it be read in the Mitchell appointment, and

EhrlichmanRon's plea is that we should do it at 1:00.

HaldemanI'm just that hung up on the, get Ron in and write out

Haldemanso we have reasons at 7:30 [unintelligible]

NixonWell--

HaldemanProbably the best thing

Haldemanfor the White House to just point out that you're--

NixonWalk down and say, look I've got a big announcement, kids.

EhrlichmanCall a special briefing. Call it for that time.

EhrlichmanAnd then the stuff the, tell the special briefing, I won't answer questions, but, boom, put it out and stick--

NixonWhat about 4:00?

EhrlichmanWell, each thing we throw in, the earlier the reading, the point of that would be what you've just said. One, to get it out before the President's

Ehrlichmanspeech so the President's speech is the the original impact,

Haldeman[unintelligible]

EhrlichmanTwo, to respond to the charges in the cycle they were made. In other words, the charges were made yesterday,

Ehrlichmanmade known to us today, through the Los Angeles Times, who is always a source of illegal information,

HaldemanYeah.

Nixon[unintelligible]

Ehrlichmanand because of that, there is a request. We had to wait, and

Ehrlichmanwe press, but you need to wait and investigate, and we regret it. And the President

Ehrlichmanis horrified, and he has requested, and the question of why he didn't do it before this: Well, that's why we didn't,

Ehrlichmanwhy wait until 4:00? The answer is that it came out

Ehrlichmanas of today, and we got a reason. It didn't really come up on the Hill.

EhrlichmanIf that's a pretty good thing to deal with, the key is the name.

EhrlichmanObviously, Mitchell and whatever will be.

NixonI have privilege, but I have privilege there.

EhrlichmanLet's wait for this, Nixon.

NixonAre they saying waiver? Are they asking to waive privilege for Dean?

EhrlichmanWell, they they'll say,

EhrlichmanJohn, what are you doing?

EhrlichmanSenators are concerned about

NixonHappy to go down and talk with them, of course.

EhrlichmanYeah.

NixonNo question in my mind that this makes a hell of a lot of difference if it's 7:30 or 4:00.

NixonAs far as hard news is concerned, they're all on for tonight.

NixonUh-huh. 7:30, it wouldn't want that to be breathed into the 4:01.

EhrlichmanIt's got to follow up with the President's, uh, remarks.

HaldemanYeah.

EhrlichmanAnd, uh, the commentators will say, "The President made no reference to the Watergate matter on the top of the primary concern

Ehrlichman[unintelligible]"

NixonWell, well, the way to play it is, well, the President talked about food prices and he talked about the end of the war,

Nixonbut in Washington tonight, those matters pale

Nixonin significance, compared to

EhrlichmanWhat's the President going to say? I don't think they'll say that.

EhrlichmanWell, they'd definitely say,

Ehrlichman"In fact, what he has to say will

Ehrlichmantotally be Watergate." Then frankly,

EhrlichmanI don't think they take issue with your view. Just go look at it, this is

Ehrlichmannot a matter of that concern compared to the people of the country. Don't really care

Ehrlichmanabout the whole week.

HaldemanAnd that's that thoroughly. It's spent an hour with the editors today.

HaldemanStart throwing their questions, the publishers. The publishers didn't give one question on Watergate.

HaldemanNot one on that in the afternoon paper.

NixonThe occasion would be rude because, uh, Bob,

Nixonthere would be no time.

NixonBecause the L.A. Times will still be, people will read, you know, both.

EhrlichmanExcuse me.

NixonAnd what they turn to what you say, that will have been overwritten.

HaldemanThat'll be the morning, well you mean

Nixonthe in-depth commentary after the speech.

HaldemanSee they're using whole the whole continent.

EhrlichmanWell, I suppose it would be commentary, in itself.

EhrlichmanThey have much, and that's how they're going to comment on that story.

EhrlichmanThat, uh, soon, assuming the press story, the

Ehrlichmanstatement will cause, will lead to some

Ehrlichmanit's not going to overcome. The commentators are going to say, well,

Ehrlichmanthey asked the question, they'll question the prosecutor's notice, huh, before they start to send them in.

EhrlichmanThe fact that the President insists, voluntarily, with the grand jury

HaldemanI think that's, that's exactly the kind of forthcoming, uh,

Haldemanuh, voluntary, disclosing that everyone has been waiting for.

HaldemanAnd, you're getting it out to an audience, not in a parallel,

EhrlichmanThey have look at, they can keep on going,

Haldemanand they hold, then uh,

EhrlichmanThe President said he has had no about that. All right. Assume food prices prove it,

HaldemanI think that's quite true.

HaldemanI don't think it, and they'll find one of them good hand, but I think that as much as they're going to say, they'll say, well, you know, we hear all the things about that,

Haldemanand they would never that that ever had to breathe it out at the morning that we just have and that that actually is tomorrow. What they'll think of they will say that he'll say,

Haldemangee, I tried to get out there that a hastily

Haldemananother uh presidential address to the nation is not to cover up the, you know, what's been focusing on the Watergate. The President tonight will speak on the Oval Office, will tell you that the White House

EhrlichmanWe got to talk to Stewart.

HaldemanAnd if he, my, in his office, my view very will be right after this show.

EhrlichmanWe'll hold onto it, later. It wouldn't say anything that,

Ehrlichmanmarge might,

ZieglerAll our leads during the day had been,

Ziegleryou know, the questions that are all about this thing. But,

NixonThe main story, you've got nothing to hang it on. The main story's John's.

ZieglerNo, this morning, the leads were that McCord

NixonThat's not the main Watergate story.

HaldemanThat's everything. It's the big Watergate story. That's, all right, and you've got nothing writing against it.

ZieglerAnd Watergate, the President's not going to talk on Saturday, they have,

Haldemanand more of McCord, recall McCord,

Zieglerand recall McCord.

HaldemanRecall McCord tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

ZieglerThen some of the committee's not being fine, on and on and on and on.

HaldemanAn issue of statement like that [unintelligible] more than that.

HaldemanWatch the telegram contacts, I bet folks out there will be mad now.

ZieglerI know the barrage you make this afternoon. I'm telling you this [unintelligible]. That I know they'll listen to the cannon fodder for it [unintelligible]

ZieglerIf you issue that statement, the coverage tonight [unintelligible] tonight on NBC tonight,

Zieglerand tomorrow night will be coverage of a response.

NixonRight.

Ziegler[unintelligible]

ZieglerThey have not been shot at for an hour and a half, wait a minute.

ZieglerThey shot us all morning.

HaldemanAll the morning's questions were

ZieglerThis is an answer to all of them.

HaldemanYes, issue this statement, John, [unintelligible].

ZieglerNow the worst part of that sensation, we call a press

ZieglerSo don't call it, put it on the wire.

NixonNo, don't do that. For what?

ZieglerBecause then they'll say the White House in a panic, desperate wire, just prior to the President's speech, and the bitches slipped out a statement about this. God, sir,

HaldemanOnce we hang [unintelligible] then in any way [unintelligible]

ZieglerKeep it right in.

ZieglerLet's take it in the bottom, then. Let the story be McCord and Mitchell, [crosstalk]

HaldemanRight.

Zieglerand the Dean

Zieglerstatement,

Zieglergiven at this hour,

Zieglerone, in response to McCord and Mitchell's charges,

Ziegleris so, cast a lot of doubt on the White House

HaldemanIt's White House responds.

ZieglerTwo, that it's going to poise questions for you,

Zieglerwhich will be answered in no way tonight.

ZieglerIt is surprising that they will pull punches tonight.

HaldemanWell, I think what I was going to say is, John, that any, uh,

Haldemanlet's put it this way, look, I have a feeling myself, that, that, uh,

Haldemanat all, that, our point makes sense from the, uh, somebody [unintelligible] what the hell, why didn't the President [unintelligible] somebody else did,

HaldemanUh, so I think you're better off in the morning also. But, I do think that you ought to have a sentence in that [unintelligible] says,

Haldemanthe same is, uh, uh,

Haldemanthis, this, uh, exceptional, exceptional rule applied in this instance applies, well,

NixonThe President will waive executive privilege in any other,

Nixonpresent or former member of the White House staff.

HaldemanIt's, uh, the same thought to apply,

Haldemanto any other

Haldemaneither present or former member of the White House staff.

HaldemanAgainst whom,

ZieglerHow about that other member of the White House staff, uh, who's called [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanThat says, that says we expect other charges to be made. That's, why not go the other way?

ZieglerYeah, how about going the other way and saying this, this policy is consistent [crosstalk]

Ehrlichmanconsistent

Zieglerwith the President's, directed, yeah, to all members of the White House staff to cooperate fully [crosstalk]

HaldemanYeah, and with a proper

Zieglerwith a proper, this

HaldemanThis policy, that's better. This policy is, this, this, this carries out,

Haldemancarries out,

Haldemanuh, this carries out the consistent policy that all present and former members

Haldemanof the White House staff will cooperate fully,

Haldemanwith the grand jury.

NixonAnd, uh, but that's a very good lead then.

ZieglerThe grand jury and all other law enforcement agencies [crosstalk] that fact is we're willing to go [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanFirst in their [unintelligible]

HaldemanOkay.

ZieglerSenate's not a law enforce— Well, some might think it was, but that [unintelligible]

HaldemanNow look, Ron, you can't have it both ways. On the one hand you say this is just John's,

ZieglerYeah.

Haldemanand you're certainly right, in one hand.

HaldemanJohn, uh, I, I feel that I know that this is a polarized view, but I, I feel that I'd rather do it in the morning.

Ehrlichman[unintelligible]

ZieglerMy thought around here is, reason to panic is you say, "Hurry, let's rushing."

HaldemanAlso, I think, instead of talking about Mitchell, which is really the subject of the story today and has been all day,

HaldemanI don't think by the morning, that by doing that in the morning, you put, and, and waiting one day is no problem.

ZieglerSee,

Zieglerso, they'll cover you, they'll have to cover the McCord allegations today,

Zieglerand the Colson,

Zieglerall the Republican Colson-Mitchell shoot-out.

ZieglerAnd, and the denials will be [crosstalk]

HaldemanAnd we're forcing bad people into pictures.

ZieglerWell, now they get in anyhow. They didn't have Mitchell Colson and people in their own story. And what's your

Zieglerour prognostications about

Zieglera press

Zieglerconference tomorrow?

ZieglerAnd now, oh boy,

Zieglerit's like a shot all the, Republicans as well as Democrats, [crosstalk] all over [unintelligible]

NixonThat's right.

HaldemanThat's right.

Zieglercalling for some action back [unintelligible].

ZieglerThen, that would all be shifted to [unintelligible].

NixonLet me ask you this, Ron. The point is, though, that John, uh,

NixonUh, if we wait,

Nixonuntil later, I mean, tomorrow morning,

Nixonthen the thing that bothers me,

Nixonthat we'll, uh, be four hours later, I mean, that there'll be four hours, why didn't we start it in the morning?

ZieglerWell, look at the shot. It's an arrogant shot.

ZieglerAfter you go through all this, then it would seem the White House and the President

Zieglertoday responding to this pressure,

Zieglerreleased a statement late this afternoon

Zieglerprior to his speech on, uh, Vietnam,

NixonNo, we're not doing it for, not doing it for that reason.

NixonIf, I wanted to take the time to think properly on that,

Nixonand you said, the property, what would never be the one to go on,

Nixonand, uh,

NixonI don't think that, uh,

Nixonwill be, rush in,

Nixonand, uh, just don't like the idea of, that this would fall, uh, so near.

ZieglerNobody wants to follow that Hiss thing at all.

NixonWho would prefer it, responding to the criticism. It doesn't come responding to criticism, responded,

ZieglerUh-huh.

NixonIn fact, it comes off just before the President goes on and talks on, then what else do they talk about besides

ZieglerYeah.

Nixonthey think on Watergate, the President speaks about it, they instantly come to terms to say, he didn't answer charges about Watergate.

NixonAll right, people will hear that, in the morning we'll read this, come on, you've got to answer that.

ZieglerRight on.

ZieglerNow, they will anyway,

Zieglerthat's the point,

Zieglerall the while they hear about Watergate,

NixonThe, the great majority of people, they, that, those people that don't think that,

EhrlichmanAnd my guess is that the Grand Jury takes two days to hear them.

NixonThey make statements? [unintelligible] They're each in there about forty minutes.

EhrlichmanUh-huh.

NixonThe Grand Jury takes—

EhrlichmanWell, that's just a damn waste of time. They could make that tomorrow, couldn't they?

NixonWell, of course, they may have a lot of records to inspect today.

EhrlichmanSure.

NixonAnd they have, and uh, they may want to bunch one right under the back of the other. The Grand Jury takes two days, eh?

EhrlichmanOh, I would think, about, on that. Now the Grand Jury takes—

NixonJohn, uh I, John wrote that letter, forty-two, in the morning of the twenty-seventh. I have it somewhere. Oh, here it is.

EhrlichmanNow uh, what I mean is the document questions had not been answered at all. So that uh maybe they had some other interview or took testimony. I don't know, but uh but that may issue get settled tomorrow on that, on how they're going to treat the stash and so forth and so on. But they're not going to have quite the same things.

NixonEverybody will be [applause]

EhrlichmanAll right, now the question is is there another move on Gray? The question is, is another move on Gray?

NixonIt is and that uh, we can get the, the Committee, by the way we've got to know now, the Committee's meeting today. The Committee's meeting in executive session or something, to talk about this deal about Gray and we can get them, the steal, to move the mind on the grounds and get the highest approval and uh of uh to go along.

EhrlichmanWell, the other—

NixonHell, on the grounds that uh the matter should be considered by the Senate rather than rather than uh through the Committee. So we get a whole boat and then, then, the bias would be the table until the completion of the hearings. On the grounds of this can't be properly considered until after the Watergate hearings. If they will, uh, he'll move that into the measure.

EhrlichmanThat table would be good. That table would be cheer.

NixonAnd then and Gray's got to come out of it. They move into the floor, and they move into the table, from the position of the hearing, and then Gray says, "Fuck you!" [unintelligible] You have it here again? All right, we'll stand that and uh, we'll follow this before the [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanIf we could get that done, I think that's a good thing. That builds Gray up, so he's confirmed in a sense and yet, he's heading, with Gray all over this now. That's what we want done. We'll tell us accept it. Well, that's what we wanted. It could work out that—

NixonWell, it's a more graceful way to get Gray out than having him take a discovering way down here [unintelligible] You have a man who could turn who tends to be burned by forty-nine to forty-eight.

EhrlichmanThat's a damn shame.

NixonYeah, do that rather than, I don't think they'd have more than five votes to table, to table the question, and we'd run down.

EhrlichmanThat's no good. We want to [unintelligible]

Nixon[unintelligible] All right.

EhrlichmanAll right, well let me ask you, John, to pursue something else. I wonder if you maybe situations like

NixonThere is a Baker. I know what Baker had to do with it. Baker doesn't want anyone [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanYou see nobody tomorrow.

NixonNow, he's, who is he an administrative assistant [unintelligible] so that he wants to get back to the White House. That wasn't, that's one step. And maybe [unintelligible] so that Chuck went through questions. I had that.

Ehrlichman[unintelligible]

NixonI could foresee twenty weeks without him saying so and had sat there and not argued at all our position. Never mind. We'll get you some coffee anyway.

EhrlichmanAll right. I wonder if you [unintelligible] he can send in our [crosstalk]

Nixon[crosstalk] Well they don't want another we must have another, this yard tomorrow right after that. We shouldn't postpone, we can't postpone. He's little worried about it. He said, "It seems to me in this whole week, we've had more week and before they [unintelligible] right?" I mean, I doubt you can Here's what I was going to suggest.

EhrlichmanWhatever you [unintelligible] they'll carry away [unintelligible] I think it's better to consult about it. I think so.

NixonI'm not sure of what he did actually. What I had in mind was to interview him, say, when I go back, I'm going to touch you today and, uh, and that.

EhrlichmanYes, sir. [unintelligible]

NixonHarold tomorrow starts like getting an argument and just had to go right up by that retention.

EhrlichmanIn fact, the other alternative is that you put the water in it.

NixonI see what happens. In that, or it's stonewall.

EhrlichmanBetter wait for this. Stonewall maybe.

NixonI think that stonewall only works when got water.

EhrlichmanThat would be uh In a sense, part of it has passed. I would prefer to have the water being approached that it's down in the Grand Jury and that it's got to come out.

NixonWell, the Watergate Grand Jury, they will start, you know, they start now saying that it just isn't going to be possible, of course, to send anybody out there. At the same time, you've got to take the information that you get, uh, uh, from uh. And while that's taking place, we're going to be saying that we don't have that information. So, somebody's going to build it all, you know. He's got a problem.

EhrlichmanSo, "How do you want to have this information now? Do you want to have it informally in conversation, do you want to have it in written form, do you want to have it in interrogation? Which, which form?"

Ehrlichmanand say we notice in the paper that you put a big premium on cross-examination. Now do you want to have it in that context because you aren't going to get in bondage. Take a deposition for example.

NixonTake a deposition. You have right to have a lawyer, and your counsel can be at the deposition, or a member of the counsel can be at the deposition. Wouldn't that be right? Couldn't we do that?

EhrlichmanAnd then as a last resort you would say, all right, we'll tell you what, we'll send a whole bunch of committee people, if you insist, four or five.

NixonYeah. But it would take place, on this ground, under, honorable ground, we can tell them. It involves fundamental, fine mark, between the Executive Branch and the Legislature.

EhrlichmanAnd and there'll be no television, there'd be limited section. And you have the opportunity, for all committee members to participate and all that. But as a matter of privilege, we can't. But as a matter of discussion, we can lead the way, believe that there will be a day education uh [unintelligible]

NixonThe purpose of our guilt. And we can discuss it among ourselves, but as far as, that uh

EhrlichmanI can do that. The disability I have you may be confronted in, is that there might be some kind of a party interest. I don't foresee that, what is foreseeable. And at the very least, I will be a witness regarding the circumstances of the police department and the Secret Service reporting this morning to me, and all that.

NixonThat's right, that's right. Well

EhrlichmanNow, I don't know whether that's disabling, in the, in the sense that I'm taking kind of a legal role. And Ervin I could understand Ervin taking the position, "I don't want to talk to anybody who's a collaborator, who are party to the interest, who are party to the discussions."

NixonA party at, that seems to be virtually so. He's that everybody in the White House. But Howard?

EhrlichmanHoward Baker. Howard Baker is another possibility. But I called Howard Baker next, to tell, and the press could think it was consultations, and you're not involved in this thing.

NixonHow about starting out, saying rumors all over town, that uh, Baker's brother, Baker's brother-in-law has reported to the press that uh, [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanHe wants to, he needs to get a sure grip on the, this thing. He's had a few bad days. Now work this out.

NixonWe'd like to work it, I'd like to, you want me to talk to Howard Baker tonight? How about that?

EhrlichmanHoward, what if he says talk to me alone? You, me, Howard alone? You think he wants to work with him?

NixonLet me say what, what I believe, and what I

EhrlichmanYou can't. You know, we crossed the bridge, as we have to cross them. All we've got to rank

NixonWe have a pretty good position to stand firm on Executive Privilege as far as this. Not total, but it's not bad, particularly what they've done.

EhrlichmanYeah. Well I always hate to, well, there's not much. I think we have a big PR problem for it. Explain that. I don't think we can do it.

NixonYeah, but, well let me put it this way, it's a big PR problem, it's going to be a bigger PR problem when they have our boys down there dragged around.

EhrlichmanWe can't allow, we can wrap that, or we do that, too.

NixonNobody argues that, including Senator Gurney. Gurney, what's he say?

EhrlichmanHe, he privately says you've got to work out some way to get someone to represent the White House. Why not just produce Dean? Why not work with him?

NixonWell, apparently Baker. I know everything and both Gurney, who's spark some of it, and Baker's brother who is this problem Baker, say that they feel that. That's true. This this make it they can view the Baker.

EhrlichmanBaker is is anxious, he's looking for a way out of it. I would think Ervin would find that he can't, so keep thinking that 21 now, after his committee has approved it. So, this is the time. This is the time. They're in they're deeply, deep sand.

NixonAre they really? Are we worried about it?

EhrlichmanNo, I think they are and they really have themselves in a bad way. Did you read McCord?

NixonNo. But I got the leak story. One leak. One source said McCord swore under oath before the direction that he had quote heard, heard. The same source said, however, McCord offered no collaborative evidence to back up his testimony. Meaning not very strong then.

EhrlichmanSeveral members of the Senate Select Committee and present [unintelligible] and the partisan fury [unintelligible] leaked out and some later violation of the committee rules that I can't imagine anyone anyone that's what we need to get.

NixonI know Ervin, we know Ervin was mad last week. Last Sunday on the, went to dash, and Ervin and Baker.

Ehrlichmanto his excessive. See, that's cross, that's possible to talk. What I had in mind is this, you had a meeting with John

EhrlichmanFind you another lawyer. You don't have to hire him, but uh, who would not, who would not take it.

NixonNow, do you need another lawyer?

EhrlichmanWell, I certainly, you've got somebody here that could do that, in the sense that the [unintelligible] Yeah, but the lead gentleman.

NixonWell, why don't you talk to I can Dean carry on as Special Counsel?

EhrlichmanI don't know why not. There's another, there's another bright guy. That we used in the busing compact. His name, not don't know whether you recall the name, the young lawyer from Justice, kind of got on. He tried that CIA case. That uh well, he got the injunction against the guy who spilled, who's going to spill all the beans about the CIA. A damn good tough lawyer. I could get a guy like that, right?

NixonAll right, well I'd like to do, get a guy [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanBob, do you agree on my schedule? [unintelligible]

NixonYou see, this could, you're trying to help here, and uh

HaldemanOh, that's fine. I've had it with these fellows. I do think that we ought to, Dean ought to, they want Dean to go on. Dean didn't come in at all [unintelligible] all over town. But Bob

EhrlichmanWell, that's I'm too far away from the wall. The great thing [unintelligible]

Unknown[unintelligible]

NixonThe point is it's not [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanNo, let me ask you what, what, what'd he think? George Bush? [unintelligible]

HaldemanWell, George Bush, George Bush, president [unintelligible] speech [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanYeah, yeah, George Bush and he's [unintelligible] inside of the White House and [unintelligible]

HaldemanI don't go for this business [unintelligible] and all that crap. One day, God dang it, God damn [unintelligible] for years.

EhrlichmanOne day, yeah. One day isn't going to make any difference. Friday, the weekend, or wait until Monday and knock it down. I don't think we should wait till next week. Well, why don't God dang it,

HaldemanAlright, let's wait until Saturday. All right. Well, all right. I think we go ahead with this just like [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanSo, did George Bush, uh, who else had talked to you? You know who? [unintelligible]

Haldeman[unintelligible] He's flakes out. Everybody should be saying something like, something like Bob Dole has come forward and press said everybody. Well, frankly, George, I mean, the same as the Vice President's message, as a matter of fact.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanAnd he said we think that you've got to clear the air. You've got to tell about who of the White House staff knew and how they did all these things. And that's what that White House statement should say. And and they feel that the President didn't help it at all because if they make the show which is desirable, nothing he has any input to, but that feeling you will send that directly to him, you see, to be helpful and so I am dressing up now, yeah.

NixonKeep the value, would I not have—

HaldemanAnd and did Troyer bother you? I don't think so. It's all funny. Finally the Georgia Assembly,

EhrlichmanWho is Troyer?

HaldemanYou got some problem with with with the delegation [unintelligible] that everything'll be alright. Well, look, we won't [unintelligible] will be alright.

NixonYeah.

EhrlichmanWhat is it, that they're hyper because the media is hyper? They'll fly to fly home and then they'll come back and their tires will be flat and, [unintelligible] Colson. Colson—

HaldemanColson's all raw. Colson's raw meats you know. He will want to put it, I think what it is, is pure panic. It's now, you know, we went through this after the and everybody believed then that boat wasn't through.

NixonYeah.

HaldemanThat's the natural reaction.

EhrlichmanDid you, did you talk to Bush, or Colson? Both? Both. Colson—

HaldemanThey're going to call in a few guys. That's, that's where the hanging hang is now. Look for what they could said to the Vice President, they're going to call on buddy. That is, if they call on buddy, and that hunt says, that's the problem.

EhrlichmanSo, let's see to the grand jury what [unintelligible]

HaldemanThat's, other defendants in this case, I have no personal knowledge whatever, of any so-called higher-ups in the government who may have participated in the activity of the Watergate break-in. In the news media, by public, by media, and there are, you know, they've been,

EhrlichmanIn view of the baiting tactics of media and the tempting temptation to distort the facts is undeniably real, I simply cannot and will not implicate others when to do so would be inconsistent with the facts as I know them. I can resist such pressure as well as others that government may seek to bring to bear on me, such as my unexplained, solitary confinement in the D.C. jail for the past few days, all of which satisfied

HaldemanAnd then it says

Ehrlichmanand then it says he's for the specific question.

Haldeman[unintelligible] specific questions, and I have no personal knowledge, I have no personal knowledge of any so-called higher-ups in the Watergate affair. To be specific, I have never discussed any aspect of the Watergate affair with either Charles Colson, John Mitchell, or John Dean either before or after June 17th, 1972.

EhrlichmanThat's what he's going to clear. Now, if we can [unintelligible]

NixonGeorge Bush [unintelligible] tried to [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanHe won't make a good thank. I'll talk to him. I can put it into him to I could, could be secular.

NixonTell him, tell him what he can say and tell him

EhrlichmanDon't, don't, don't let him go today. He can call him Saturday. That'd be better. I can call him.

HaldemanNot being cleared at all. This is not important for the press that that that [unintelligible] announcement tomorrow and we'll uh we're getting success done and, how's that? Fine. And, and, and, what do you—and and and what do you suggest, John? What, wait, what did you suggest John? Nobody can talk about that now. [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanWell, now, we could begin to start the dealing with his questions in terms of you don't want everybody out there that knows anything, can't help it.

HaldemanWell, would ask the question that he just, what he just may say, but give up that if you prefer [unintelligible]

EhrlichmanI am quite effective. There's not enough to justify a doubt, and that's understandable. You'd be surprised that there's not ever self, or, a lot of people will say, "Well, god damn it, you are cooperating,

Nixonwith the Grand Jury, which is the step you've never taken.

EhrlichmanRight. We never had that. Right, that's why I want to put that this is consistent.

NixonWell you were very good, and take that position again, you see. That's it. And we, we should maintain that. And nobody'll pay any attention, but it lets people know that you're

EhrlichmanAnd to be the same, so when they say to Ron, "Well, what caused this change in plan?" Ron, you look him right back coolly and say, "What change in plan?"

NixonRight.

EhrlichmanWe've did it in a way who's already [unintelligible] everything they've asked. Right. Anybody else they want, is standing here ready to go. Have refused to

HaldemanNever, never invoked privilege, revoked privilege regarding appearance at the Senate.

EhrlichmanNever invoked privilege regarding appearance at the Senate. And I would say that that some of us ought to say uh, "I think our wisdom has been proved. As far as the conduct of the Senate committee has proved it." That privilege Chuck said at the press club today [unintelligible]

HaldemanHe said something, he got a question where they said, "Okay, let's get down to the bottom line, who is going to be the scapegoat of the Watergate case?" And Chuck decided to throw it back. So, he got real indignant and he said, "Look,

EhrlichmanI deeply resent that question. This is a situation that you got here where people, people who have given up private lives to come in and serve the government, to do what they feel is right, are torn apart in a kangaroo court system and all this sort of stuff. I resent the question, and the implication, and I resent the whole approach to what's going on." And he, and they broke into, he got a huge ovation.

HaldemanWell, he's got all of that power now. How big was the audience?

EhrlichmanWell, he is not let me start at the beginning for the purpose. He is not complaining about not having a voice. The White House has got that. He is complaining because it looks like nobody's in charge.

Haldemanheard and that I was legitimately presenting the Vice President. Now, he said the Vice President replied something on the order of, he said, "I just don't know what"—well, whatever he replied, [unintelligible] replied.

HaldemanBut, I said, "Well, the President called me in this afternoon and asked me to respond to the Vice President's concerns, expressed by phone, by calling you, and I have just done that." And he said, "Fine, Bob. Fine, Bob. Good, Bob. Great, Bob."

HaldemanAnd I said, "Now, the way to start this is for me to call Ervin and open the conversation. Ervin, Ervin, Ervin." I said, "I don't I'm not in a position to prepare the way for you, nor can I predict what he's liable to say, and he gets scolded very badly from the committee when they when"

HaldemanBaker and Ervin negotiated the plan which they brought before the committee. He said, and he took these high oaths. And that's what, back to what he always says, "The whole committee, that's what they're saying, that"—well, and today I think that the word went back, some of them. He said, "The whole committee"

HaldemanHe said, "His in his word, that the whole committee, you can bring Ervin back." Well, now, if I have to if I have to negotiate with the whole committee, Showalter going to agree to go off there and do that? No.

NixonMr. Chairman, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I want you to negotiate with if you I told you that I want you to negotiate with Ervin.

HaldemanYeah, but see Baker's feeling today that Ervin was burned so badly because Ervin tried another negotiation.

NixonI think I know. What happened there was the rest of the committee were pissed off because Ervin and Baker got the word from the White House.

HaldemanNo, they didn't. No, they're pissed off because Ervin and Baker met with Kleindienst and made a deal.

NixonIf they'd make a deal with Ervin, they'd make a deal without him. I see, I see. What he wants [crosstalk] but anyway, make make them say, all right, we present this to the committee.

HaldemanI know, but so I think your You see, his sensitivity now is, that

NixonI see, I see.

Nixonthat's what we will do. But that is already Stage one. We will not get into that until we make them say executive privilege, they can have them clear out. executive privilege, you can have a cleared house.

Nixonorder, etc., etc. You sure you want to give them all? Well, standard excuse for that. It's totally blurred. Because what you're saying is all you change is the the site and the site Stable Hearing's on the West Coast.

HaldemanIf I'm going to discharge this, to do it with Kissinger, which is to say, whole committee and purposeful consultation with staff, no senior staff. And off the record. And without a record. And not under oath, huh? Is before you're going wrong, is when you take an oath and record, there's collateral [unintelligible].

HaldemanNow Baker has negotiated this, and I haven't talked to him about negotiating strategy, but sure as a ballpark, yeah. And then review it with him. Maybe I could do that over the weekend down there.

HaldemanOh.

HaldemanI'd like to develop that strategy at San Clemente this weekend. And I'll phone Ervin Monday. And then, if necessary, I'll come back early and uh sit down with him or have him down and Well, does Baker is satisfied with Baker

HaldemanHe said, "You're You know, I guess I'm the I guess I'm the fall guy." But he said he said, "That's That's life." And I told him I said, "So, I think we'll be all fine." And he said, "Anytime you have anything in mind, you phone." And I said, "Well, that works the other way, too." And he said, "Well, I'm kind of in people's spot." And, uh What was his question about

Nixonyou? I don't know what you had a chance to say about it. The hard pressed he's been in a call press conference through the whole proceedings. Did he know the man is vice President? That's it? Wow. Well, we need to get the lead from him.

HaldemanYeah, but that's a big uh uh that's a big shot to take a first conversation at half-past 4:00 at night and uh no far. A whole bunch A lot of the first time out. But uh we'll develop under it, we'll develop a

NixonYou develop a negotiating strategy with him. Talk to Colson. Yeah. I agree. The only way it'll work, [unintelligible].

HaldemanAll right.

NixonWould it not be good,

Nixonhave some kind of a job for you, sir,

Nixona wonder drug,

Haldemansee what he comes up with.

NixonWould you mind knowing Bush now?

Nixona 20-minute speech. God damn it, I don't need

NixonThe battle of the budget. Well, I don't have to discuss the whole pricings. I discussed the battle of the budget, call for support of the clean bill. And then, I discussed the defense function, say, "Hold the line in defense money."

NixonNow, if I've got four points like that in a 20-minute speech, isn't that enough?

HaldemanCertainly.

HaldemanYou got to look over this. I got to look at that myself. It's totally clear. And, frankly, you know I was thinking even in the the one involvement I had, it was one time discussed with me, just the two of us, you and I.

HaldemanWatergate polls, remember the Watergate leak issue was really hurt. Yeah, pretty good. And the purpose of the water was the beach. What did you say, [unintelligible]? Sure, you. Well, sir, I predict, remember, I predicted that sooner or later that it would be coming at us. This was after the uh election. This was

Unknownwords that would have that dimension.

UnknownPrecisely, because, we had picked up all those demonstrators in Miami Beach,

Unknownand see who the leaders and who the shot callers were and that the money say was

UnknownI know that, in all those months, we've already done that.

HaldemanIt couldn't help us coming in, because they said, "Look, we've got a source." There was no hint of anything. I knew that we were trying to do all sorts of things to get intelligence.

Haldemanto get information, but I never heard of such a thing.

HaldemanYou know that, because I would have seen the fruits of that labor. That's the discussion I've—you said, "Well, we've got a bug in—"

HaldemanI might have said, "Well, let me check it. Let me see." You know what I mean? Basically, because default of having us.

UnknownYeah.

HaldemanIt's not there. And in that delivery that's so damn stupid.

UnknownThe Colson thing, on the other hand, you know, he's never indicated, never ever a source of money.

EhrlichmanThe fact I don't believe you ever, we were sure of that information. You remember what it was, the whole committee convention, in San Diego, where there was all this business that there was going to be a mob there, and all that kind of thing. Mobilization committee, and so forth.

EhrlichmanAnd, we never knew. We never know.

EhrlichmanWe had a lot of rumors. We had some secret service intelligence, but, we're totally in the dark.

Ehrlichmansay, this or that, because I don't care about Hunt, or many of the rest of this gang. And also, who was burked on Howard Hughes, and others,

Ehrlichmanto suffer more than they should, for instance.

EhrlichmanNow, people would say, well, you can defend the fact of it's pardon, or whatever it is, and all this sorrow, you know.

Ehrlichmanbeside that myself. That's another question that can't be decided. We can decide it there. I wouldn't I would never want to be in the position of having to testify,

Ehrlichmanthat we had discussed that, that that had ever been discussed in my presence by anybody.

UnknownYeah.

EhrlichmanI don't have any, I just don't have any compunctions about that. Never. You could say it was never discussed. It'd be treated like any other case. It never came up.

UnknownYeah.

EhrlichmanAnd, uh, and I think it's better that the subject's not discussed in truth. Watch me. I can't put one of her bangs. Why start doing this? I never asked Mitchell about money. I never asked him about it.

NixonI don't want you to.

EhrlichmanI don't want to know.

NixonNo.

EhrlichmanThat you can say to Mitchell that the way never specifically to approve

EhrlichmanThat's what I would think. My view is what happened to is that they just didn't have a tight control of the shop.

NixonAnd Kroger must have done

NixonWell, you agree, where did they get their and so forth. I don't know where they got the money and so forth.

EhrlichmanThe, the thing here, it seems to me is Haldeman, I know that. Colson, I believe that. You, I know that. As far as the other activity around, the [unintelligible] plan

UnknownAnd after the fact, the problem is that National Security Group had did all sorts of activities, that this kind, remember? Now they chose the businesses government, because they were undercover agency, question itself.

EhrlichmanNo, you saw we had, we had leaks in it. Once when there was leaks in the government itself. I walked back, the other day into some of those files. That was the time that we had

Ehrlichmanone in the, something on the one side, Hoover, and somebody else on the other and

NixonThe Pentagon Papers. Hoover didn't want to go in. He said, "that's their business. We want their story." That's true. He refused. So we had to do that. That was the rest. We finally crammed it down his throat. But I don't know who else had done that. And, so, we tried that the best we could. The FBI, had to be undertaken for the 1971 leaks. We had to push him hard.

EhrlichmanOnly because our people were there, someone else [unintelligible]

NixonThat's see if you can pull sweet and get off. Back to the other.

UnknownRight here, sir.

EhrlichmanAnd quite frankly those guys paid for bringing everybody, every one of those people. And they worked, and got hurdles of white paper for, and they're, stand, you know, somewhat high, but, and everybody knows why.

EhrlichmanThat's why. You're You're unquestionably getting the credit. Mitchell, gets the hard, unquestionably. Years after that we work.

NixonYeah. What they had to regard is this, that the time that John Mitchell took call of the the campaign funds to rest that thing. We wouldn't have got the sticks credit, we happen to have this first. We raised that money. Excellent. But if he gets in the controversy about

EhrlichmanWell, that's true, but that's what, we are there.

HaldemanOkay, my meeting broke, Mr. President.

NixonWell, that's alright. I have to go, but, if you're not in a hurry, remember we got this I don't get with regard to white people. They're working. The worse they go, they stand, well, they understand.

EhrlichmanWell, this guy is good. He's, I know where his loyalties are. That's something I'm going to smoke out, in terms of reliability, and, if he, if he doesn't prove out, I've got somebody else. But,

UnknownWe'll get a, we'll get a good candidate.

Nixon, Ehrlichman & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and John Dean

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Nixon, Ehrlichman & Haldeman on Watergate scandal and John Dean

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Also recorded on March 29, 1973

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