Conversation 427-002

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Yeah, but I always come here in the afternoon.

I got to try to help.

I spoke to Billy Drake.

Ah, come on.

I know we can run upstairs.

That's fine with me.

I've not spoken.

I can't.

I get my exercise.

Four months ago, I could run up the stairs.

Really?

Yeah.

What is your age now?

52, sir.

My God, you've got three years in.

Gosh, when I was in my 50s, I didn't go almost anything.

I stopped school about six years ago.

Right.

And it didn't make any difference then.

I didn't feel it.

Let me get to two quick questions before we go.

Three questions.

Very fundamental.

Perhaps the first two are related.

So, Dean.

Well, first of all, for the information that I know, uh, it's important to me that I've got to tell the...

I don't know if that's the right way to put it, where it works and where not to put it.

There's very much a reaction to that.

We've got to be sure that if people ask us later, that we didn't leave people around because they were guilty.

I think so.

I'd like that not to be done until we conclude these negotiations with respect to the plea.

We're working on the plea, Howard.

We're trying to get him to take that.

His lawyers are reluctant on two grounds.

One, Judge Sirica is just going to lower the rule on him and clap him in jail immediately.

So we'll have to see Judge Sirica.

I think we can't reach some understanding of that.

What we would request is that he not be clapped in jail before the others against whom he's testified, who are Mitchell, Paul, who were there.

Secondly, his lawyers are most concerned about what actions the Senator Irwin and his committee will take.

And

I'm starting to tell his lawyers that I will go talk to Senator.

Senator, thank you.

On that issue, yes, sir.

I think we can make very persuasive arguments on Fairtrade 3 credits for the man who's being killed as a potential witness.

But the other can't guarantee success.

What we can do in this case, I would think we have a hell of a problem.

But getting Fairtrade to mention this

I think, yes.

Yes, I did have an affair.

Well, that was in a very good way.

But I composed and didn't just go in and set it for her.

It was too old.

I think he doesn't agree with the categories that are closed.

There's nothing here.

I don't think so.

Good, sir, because he has instructed all the people to cooperate with the Senate committee.

That's before this.

Uh, no.

If we go to the committee and if we file an injunction action, you know, we're going to have another constitutional contract.

Between the judiciary and the committee.

That goes on here.

This committee's investigation has jeopardized the rights of the Senate council.

jeopardize the possibilities of prosecution.

Yes, sir.

I understand.

Not in the case of Lance, but in the case of Mitchell.

That is precise, sir.

It could well, I would think, seriously jeopardize your chances of prosecution.

If I were Mitchell's attorney, I would be ready to tell you all about that.

Would I should, sir?

Yes, sir.

I think you will.

Yes, sir.

And Chris, if you haven't paid any case, then you probably remember it.

The tax collector up in New England.

Oh, yeah.

In Ireland.

Yes, sir.

What happened there?

Well, the court, we requested the committee to hold up, and they did not.

And as a consequence of all of that, the case will reverse on the basis of the recognition of this inability to manage their trial.

What was the name of it?

Delaney?

Delaney.

Yes, sir.

He was an Irishman.

He was most of it.

Reverse.

So I have to be an issue convicted.

Probably not.

I honestly don't recall Mr. Franklin.

I think that they're after... Now the second, the second point that I think is this.

Just to say that we discussed it.

So we've got a record of you as my now in charge of representing me and this friend.

In other words, you understand now, you're talking only to me.

It's not going to be anybody else in the White House.

I'm active in the council.

I don't want to bring anybody else into this.

I'm the only other person who's possibly going to do more.

I said the rightful name.

I'm not a piece of the rightful name.

I might say that if I find someday that there's something that I want to get to where I'm just so cut out

I may ask him to do your competence.

Yes, sir.

I understand.

He's a friend of Mitchell's and a friend of everybody around here.

I think you've got him wrong.

What reservation?

You might tell somebody else.

No, sir.

I'll have to check it out.

Yesterday, last evening, at my home, I was talking to Silver and my aunt about it.

One of them mentioned Dick Fuller was just a slip of the lip.

No place in the conversation.

And I meant to go back at them and ask them why.

Because they should not know him.

I have to check that out with them.

No, no, no, no.

Let's just better keep it with me then.

Or is there any question?

I don't want any question.

All right.

You have told me now that you do not want the words that we would have him ask you.

Correct.

Today.

That's right.

All right.

I'll get back to you on that.

Because I told you that he has to go.

Yes, sir.

Better?

All right.

But if you think it might jeopardize your chance to bargain completely, is that what you're saying?

Yes, sir.

We haven't tied him down yet.

So, I mean, if he thinks we're being, we're pulling the string too tight on him before these other things are tied down, you may be wrong.

No.

Okay, I'll let Frank do his thing.

We'll do it on him.

I got him in the business department and I said, look, I think I've got to have in hand the resignation.

He's writing it down.

I haven't got it on me later today.

I said, I've got a lot of people in this family who I want them to not be harmful to me.

But what I know, I've got to have, I don't have any problem with that.

What you do, because that's one of the reasons I wanted you to see Dean.

What you do between you and Dean is something else other than what the prosecution does.

If I didn't want the prosecution in a position where we at the prosecution were requesting you to K and Dean as a pressure tactic.

I see.

But I have no objection to your reaching an agreement with him.

I don't think he's got any alternative.

I see.

See, I had a different impression last night.

Remember, we talked and I left a clear impression, and we didn't, we didn't think.

I said, I said, wait.

Because I think, yes, and because I didn't want to recommend to you that he be, he became.

In other words, suppose you put yourself in my position now, and I'll put you in the council of the president now, because I don't give prosecutions, and I don't give advice on this.

Then,

I think he wants to have his resignation effective after he has made his deal with him, with the prosecution.

Should I allow him to do that?

I know what the situation is.

As president, I would take his resignation.

As a prosecutor, I would do something different.

But from your point of view, I don't think you can sit on it.

I think we have the information under control, but that's a dangerous thing to say in this city.

And if this information comes out, I think that you should have it resonated and should be affected.

We both just go through the information.

Who does this?

This is something I've heard a lot.

It's one of the great differences between the U.S. Department of Justice and the U.S. Department of Justice.

The more important Department of Justice is the U.S. Attorney's Office.

Okay.

As a result of some of those matters, it's all the best I can do to you.

I don't have to pronounce the case.

We have a situation where the U.S. Attorney, in fact, the U.S. Attorney, the President has to explain

Well, I don't think we're all that far apart, Mr.

Governor.

You see, I'm on with it, that's the answer.

In the end, you see what I'm getting at is this.

The only thing that I can say is that I can say that I'm an infusion, an infusion, and I've gotten this information that the case has been broken.

So I've got to say that the Department of Justice is trying to do it in a different

I have got to be able to say this.

We don't have any objection to that.

All right.

When do you want it?

When can I say it?

If we're going to say what?

For what it's tied to, it's a reverted plea.

Yeah, but I've got to say it before you do this.

I can't just say it.

Yes, but can't you make the announcement?

I want you to make a reverted plea.

What do you say?

Because you guys own the negotiation.

I don't want, you and I don't want the Washington Post to break it.

No, sir.

After all, we broke this.

I mean, you, the Department of Justice, have got that, you see, demonstrated that the judicial system does work.

Isn't that right?

I mean, it sometimes takes time.

I think that's correct.

I think it does work.

You see, I can't have McGruder go into open court, and then I come in and blame each other.

Well, now that this and that and the other thing, I don't want to explain it.

What I got in mind is that I would go out with you.

You don't have to answer any questions.

Talk about any individuals and so forth and so on.

We're running this by a hero mind to see and see what should come up with this, what we can do.

Now that, of course, after that, I don't know if it's funny, but it was glory to Justice Department.

The rest of it, well, it bothers some.

But I mean, it made, as you see, we've got to show that the president takes the nation.

But I get facts like this, I mean, I can't be there.

That is absolutely right.

And my only hesitancy, if that's what you sense, is this.

What can be counterproductive, if it serves to put us out in front, and serves also to cause cooperating witnesses to withdraw, then it's counterproductive.

You're talking about what?

A burden.

An angel isn't tied down.

You know, with Dean and with Brewer, you know, we have two potential witnesses.

Only one has agreed to be a witness.

On Dean, I guess perhaps you have mixed emotions on that.

That might, getting his resignation today might affect the time down, too.

Yes, sir.

You feel very strongly about that.

That's right.

Well, let me put it this way.

Suppose I get his resignation dated today.

I'll say, John, this resignation will be accepted.

I mean, I can tell him and I can tell his counsel, gentlemen, that's a relationship between you and the President of the United States.

And I don't even intervene in that.

You've got no right to sit down here and talk to us and expect me not to ask for your regulation.

That doesn't bother us.

It's the announcement part that we're doing.

How do you see, how do you visualize how we can get, keep ahead of the curve regarding the announcement?

Can we make any announcements today about your activity, your position?

That would take everybody off.

Is that the problem?

Well, I think so.

The immediate question is,

It seems to me that the work outside is just an expression of dissatisfaction on your part.

Oh, that's right, that's right, that's right.

How do you handle it?

You can't.

The announcement, what I had in mind was that the announcement was going to go to the building.

It was going to be named, and several other people were involved.

It was going to be named, and because it was going to be named, it was going to define itself.

Well, I had conversations with him last night and this morning.

with his lawyers, with respect to business.

At 1220, I told one that I was going to go to Senator Earle and to advise the lawyers of that fact, and two, that they, and by that I mean Titus, who has the best relation with Sir Eric Overnair, are going to have to win a seat for working.

That's a problem.

That's a risk we have to take.

Hopefully he will.

I don't think he will do anything, unless it's in the context of proceeding in his court.

I can't conceive of him reaching the confidence of Titus and going out.

This timing plan is terribly important.

I can't have the President after all these months.

Once I find something out, I say, ah!

Well...

I think we ought to talk in more terms, in more general terms, Mr. President.

Why can't you not have Ziegler make a statement that you as president have taken it upon yourself to personally inquire into the Watergate situation?

All right, what else?

And that- Does it mean that Henry Peterson is my special counsel?

That's fine.

And that the chips are going to fall where they may.

And I am not in a position to dispose, but they're having major developments.

You would say that the president has done that.

Well, actually, he did the Sunday.

But I've been at it for two weeks, actually.

It's under review.

It really happened.

I got it.

A month ago, I got a team.

I wrote a candid and a writer report.

The report was not frankly accurate.

Well, it was accurate, but it was not full.

He tells me the reason it wasn't full was that he didn't know.

Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

Although it was not full.

But I didn't satisfy him with it.

I said, I've read enough papers for what that is.

It doesn't cover it up here.

So then I put early on that.

Early on that.

worked for two weeks, and he got materials together which virtually, this is before, he got together a case, basically hypothetical, based on, without knowing what the hell Magruder was going to say, which is exactly what he was saying, which, get my point.

That's what it was called, the finding on Sanger.

He got it before, he was finding it all the time, and says, look, I've got this, and then,

Saturday afternoon, the murder.

So we got in the wire about the same time.

It's a pretty good record now, because I worked early last night.

That was Friday, was it Friday?

Friday the 13th, I mean.

Friday the 13th.

Was it Friday?

Yes, sir.

I don't know, because I was at my boat and they were giving me gas.

.

I'm concerned about that because the information on Ehrlichman, I've got to point out something to you.

I recall one of the things that Dean said about Ehrlichman is he was instructed by Ehrlichman to teach certain documents that he found in Hunt's office and that he thought better of that and he gave it to Pat Gray.

A couple months ago, I asked Pat Gray, in a very casual conversation, did you ever receive any documents from John Dean?

And he said, no.

And I just let it go with that.

Thereafter, I learned he had also told Greg Fielding that he had given certain documents to Greg.

Dean told me he also had told the field, you know, when I leave here, I'm going to stop by Chris' office and talk to him.

Today, I went up to see Gray, and I asked him, and he said, that is absolutely untrue.

He said, I have never received anything from Hunt's office, except through the agent.

Dean never gave me anything.

I will go back to Dean, and I am going to go in through here and talk to the field, and

Let's see what this story is.

Incidentally, I don't have a reason to feel that this is off.

I just want to know what Dean told you about this.

Well, I don't know.

You better ask for it.

We will ask for it.

Because Dean was the one who supposedly set up these clips and then told me honestly what the hell the story of this is.

He said that was never done.

So we were just talking about what the hell is this.

In fact, let me point out what I know, or whatever it's worth, because I did give up on the discussion after I got this to you.

So what was this story?

It was just, you said, basically in the city was guns and wiretapping material and all that kind of thing.

All of that was, of course, turned into this video.

This demonstrated also were documents.

Documents that had no relief to the water people or whatever.

what they call political doctrine, which they said was, and he said, we just sealed that up.

And you have both, both Hurley and Hayward, and that's Hurley.

Maybe Dean, maybe there is a stimulant, maybe you've got an envelope in there to hold it.

Is that what you're saying?

He said categorically, no.

Well, he's right in saying he made documents about this case, apparently.

That's right.

And I explained that these were not documents relating to my boyhood.

He said, I never got a thing.

You know, it was a racist atmosphere that he denied.

He denied it two months ago when I had seen casually.

I don't know what to make of it.

I don't have to reconcile that.

Not even reconciling.

How the hell do you not reconcile?

Well, I guess we... We've probably been in some state of the other world.

We've probably been in some state of the other world.

Call the director of the FBI.

My suggestion is that, I mean, I have a suggestion, I think that Dr. Hill, but I think you'd better talk to Irwin.

Because Irwin's recollection is that he, I think he was there, but you'd better tell him.

You'd better tell him what Ray has told you.

You level him.

You level him and say, now this is what he says.

Hey, you're great.

Just hasn't any recollection of what the hell it was.

It's not related to this case.

There's no place for political stuff in the FBI.

That's making witness.

I don't know.

I don't know what the hell the justification is.

He could, I mean, that could be irrational.

There is irrational.

Jesus Christ.

Grace is in him.

Yeah, he puts all this down and

I don't think there's anything here that I didn't tell you yesterday.

Strong came in this morning, and he was warned of his rights.

And despite considerable fencing, he didn't want to answer any questions.

So they sent him out and told him to get a lawyer, and come on back the same day.

Oh, he let's off for a night?

No, they didn't put him in grand jury.

There was just a pre-appearance interview.

And they sent him out to get a lawyer.

Oh, so he's coming back, supposed to come back to San Diego with counsel.

Whether or not he, you know, he managed to testify.

But at this point, why the hell didn't he have a lawyer with him?

Apparently, he didn't think it was necessary.

You see, he appeared before the grand jury last week.

And the questions asked were very easy.

Frankly, they were about critical contribution violations.

And whether or not...

Uh, and I, maybe he expected me more of the same.

All right, I think I, uh, take this situation about the Team 6 thing.

Is that not the hangar?

No, sir.

I don't think it is.

Well, that ain't exactly my point.

Erwin says that, uh, Team 6, I mean, he, that we were talking about this, and Dean says, oh, we put it in.

We've got it, but all it is is just a grimy story about the damn hero of him, Jesus Christ.

Okay.

Secondly, I wanted to mention to you, Mr. President, you asked whether or not there was any problem.

I don't think there is, but there is a situation you should be aware of.

Part of a murderous testimony goes to the Obstructional Justice of our National Courthouse, and he says that lawyers were involved, and Marty was involved, and they called for his testimony.

Carl C. Daniels, the name of the guy, he played the game coach for the J.S.M.I., among others.

Then, after he appeared, he called and said, you know, what went on?

And I said, well, he witnessed it on his own behalf.

But, the jury was on a case of a little squabble.

Yes, sir.

That he or anybody else, this person, you've got a lot of money.

Yes, sir.

Now, why the hell is this being called a lie?

Well, anyway, the grand jury didn't believe him on that.

At that point, that was in the course of the inquiry that he was allegedly conducting for you as president's counsel to keep you informed of what was going on.

He said it.

What a person.

I was going to say.

Then Dean called McGruder and said, you passed.

I talked to Peter and said, you passed in your grand jury appearance.

What did you tell McGruder on that?

Dean, I'm sorry.

I told Dean that he made good witness in his own behalf.

But the jury didn't believe him.

But the jury had some difficulty in accepting the story with respect to the money.

That is, that anyone could

$300,000 and not ask what the hell he was doing with it, which is what Magruder was testifying to.

Okay, but Dean calls Magruder, according to Magruder, and says Peter's cessation passed.

Now that has great relevance in terms of the subordination of perjury charge.

And the possibilities are many things that are going to happen.

Dean said he passed.

The possibility is that I could be in it.

Oh, McGregor, he passed.

And that's what McGregor says.

That's right.

So you, and that, how's that called?

Oh, I see.

See, they previously could have gave him the cultured story.

Then he went in.

Dean was part of that.

Every testify, Dean goes in and says, how do you do?

I tell him.

I can be a witness on that issue.

So we're sorry, it's not bad.

No, I didn't tell him they contacted me.

I can tell, under the rule, to the extent it's necessary to discharge my obligation.

And I didn't tell him testimony in any way.

I told him what occurred.

That is to say, the grand jury didn't leave a story.

Yes, he was a good witness.

But I don't think that's characterized as being rather than getting a substance.

That's right.

Yes, sir.

This is .

Yes, sir.

We have very little on Coulson.

Coulson's alleged to have been putting pressure on us.

Remember the White House staff?

Yeah, I heard that.

That's all.

Listen, I know all that crap.

I don't know if it's crap.

But everybody puts pressure on.

The point is whether or not Colson and or all of them put it on, they're bugging.

We don't know that.

That's the one.

Colson denies it all the time.

All the time he wanted it for one purpose and Colson wanted it for another purpose.

Colson used the word O'Brien at one time.

I don't know that.

We don't know that.

If we learn that, that's going to be very...

because our information is that O'Brien was the target of the many operations.

I don't know.

We don't know that.

I don't know.

When I heard O'Brien, you told me that.

I think you might have told me that earlier.

Somebody had said, get Bill O'Brien.

Was that mentioned?

Dean said, or Dean, it must have been Dean then.

Dean said that Mr. Bruder had said, that mentioned, said get the stuff on O'Brien.

Is that correct?

Does that ring a bell?

I don't know.

I'll put it down because if it's relevant to somebody, I think it's...

I heard something about O'Brien.

So is it true in this sense that O'Brien was allegedly the target of the Liddy operation, which was being financed with the blessing of Mitchell and Reuter?

It's true in that context.

So I don't have it specifically for any one of them.

Don't have it on Colson.

No, sir, we don't have it on Colson.

No, we're going to interview Haller.

Is it Haller?

Yes, sir.

What do you got?

Well, just with Colson's activity, whether we can tie any of this down with respect to...

He's a clean guy.

I hope so.

We're a witness.

We have nothing against him.

So as far as this thing, you don't have that on Colson?

No, sir.

I saw so many people over the last two years.

I was sure that you told me, or maybe it was Dean.

Dean speaks rather freely at the moment.

I guess he ended up telling me about East St. Valerio, about the river and stuff.

He was telling me about what they had up close.

Are you sure you didn't tell me something?

At that point, that's all I know.

Can I just discuss this one again?

Nothing afterwards.

Before we came up here.

Nothing afterwards, of course.

Nothing afterwards.

What's the situation?

Let me come through.

If you don't think you can get to it, you would not mind.

Would you mind if I talked to Mr. Ziegler and worked out some sort of a statement or referred to the office of the attorney's office about me to work out a statement.

We're going to follow you.

That's the point.

I got the point.

I couldn't say that.

Without that, there would have been some major developments in the case in the past few weeks of the president conducting his own investigation.

I think that's fine.

I always support that.

And I don't want to put your name in it yet.

Well, I don't have, that's up to you.

I don't have any objection to that.

I don't want the defendant's name.

I don't want the putative defendant's name.

And I don't want... Well, then how do I get you into it?

You just... And find yourself.

Because the allegations...

How do you want me to have a claim?

Well, I think that's terribly sensitive, Mr. President.

Well, what am I saying about you?

That Henry Peterson is acting as the president's special counsel.

Can I say it that way?

Yes, you can say it that way.

And I think just because you think that question was expected.

And Sunday, he has made a great mention of that special counsel.

I, uh, I'll explain my concerns.

For sure.

Concerns are, one, if you say they're major developments, and then you leave the innuendo, it looks like Klein East is a defendant.

So we've got to avoid that.

The second thing is that we can't,

We can't expound on that.

The president's personal investigation.

I think that's right.

Would you mind if I got

All right.

Getting back.

The room.

He testified today.

He's coming in.

I don't know.

We anticipate that's the reason he's coming without a lawyer.

But we don't know.

And O'Brien, the lawyer, he's coming in.

He's very much concerned about the potential subordination of O'Brien.

He's going to accept the subordination as the charge made by the Supreme Court.

It's a question that we've got to prove sometime.

As far as I'm sure I can accept the Dean's elaboration to a certain degree.

How does Dean come out with this then?

Well, I see.

The negotiator.

The negotiator came out.

And I have a decision as a man.

His counsel says, we want a deal.

This man is an agent.

This man didn't do anything but what

And if you insist on trying him, we in defense are going to try early to close Nixon and this administration.

That's going to be our defense.

And it's a tough damn poker game.

Yes, sir.

We're seeing as we go yesterday, it was tough, too.

Both of these lawyers last night that you called.

The only point that I wanted to be sure was understood on that is that I don't want to be in this higher authority, especially in this higher authority.

I don't want to be in this higher authority.

Oh, I understand that.

But I just wanted to be damn sure.

But when I use that term, he's a nut.

I've never met him.

He's kind of a super patriot.

In a sense.

What we call, I call Tom Connelly, who I know very well, and told him, he told council, local council, Edward Rollins, his principal lawyer, called me and I told him also, and I told him in these terms, that a report had reached the government that he, out of a misguided sense of loyalty to the President of the United States, was refusing to cooperate.

And that I had been instructed by you to inform his lawyer that the President wanted everybody to cooperate.

Subject only to the qualification that no one of us wanted him to constrain that the President was putting undue pressure on him.

And I've got a written down, I've made a memorandum for the file so that it protects you and my property.

I've done that before.

I told you that we received it, but he also gave the same report.

Now, Lourlas, the city's lawyer, came down from the yard last night, and we had to go over to the jail so that Lourlas could enter the community and give him this information, and we'll see what the law is.

We'll see.

He would be a corroborative witness.

This man is crazy, Mr. President.

He's burning his arms and showing the prosecutor and saying, I will stand up to anything.

I made myself endure this pain to prove to myself that I can take anything.

Jail will not break me, what have you.

It's going to be crazy.

You're going to sit there and burn yourself to see if you're listening to me.

I don't know.

There's one other item that I put down, and of course, the negotiations.

And of course, the trial preparation.

It became clear that Hunt had received certain documentation from the CIA.

He also received a little of the camera.

We anticipated that

the defendants might try and defend by attacking the CIA.

And we had the CIA people in the room.

And we were told that they were simply responding to a routine request from another government agency to help out one who was on a special assignment.

And they... That's when he was with the White House.

Yes, sir.

That was Bernie B. Proctor.

He was conducting investigations on actual security on the floor of the White House, if I remember right.

They also said... That wasn't buggy, but I guess we could have gotten this guy here.

Uh, no, we could...

Camera.

We could have disguised your voice, credentials, whatever.

We were also told that the request came, that it came from Ireland.

Of course, we have one agency, and they said the White House, and they said the request came from Ireland.

Right.

That is not Paul's case, but I'm sure this came before.

I'm asking, is it relevant in this case?

Well, it's relevant in this respect early.

Yeah.

The question is, does it still take months obtaining the equipment that was used in conjunction with the... That's right.

Or there's a question of time there.

What else?

They had some pictures of the building for it.

I'll have to check the dates for you.

I'd rather not have to get you locked up in my office.

We're studying the problem.

Do you think you've got the, you don't know what, by the dean, you don't know when you're going to negotiate that.

Oh, sir.

Oh, see, we did it.

The simple fact of the matter is the mayor has just agreed to plead.

Now it's only a question of time.

He's agreed to plead.

That's a question of time.

Well, he walked, he only pleaded guilty.

Yes, sir.

My lawyer has agreed to plead guilty.

Oh, no, no, no.

Dean.

Oh, Dean, the negotiations on Dean are still wide open.

But he is not a serial killer.

Oh, sir, he did.

He's got this defense of being naked, right?

That's right.

Is that defense?

Well, it's a tactical defense.

It's a tactical defense.

Well, you know, let the jury, you know, let the jury know the case.

The jury will not convict because they think he's a bull guy.

Well, we'll see.

We'll see what happens.

Which is what detracted from their attempt to do this.

Dean has done, performed neutral acts.

which in the circumstances of their reform take on the degrees of criminality.

And he excuses that.

Because one, he wasn't fully informed.

Two, he was only an agent.

Three, he did not have enough authority to countermand the joke.

Four, he told all the men at home that didn't countermand it.

Dean was impotent in the circumstances.

I see.

We're going to cry.

But he also said, he also told you all that stuff.

Unless you've got a grant, you know, he's going to attack everybody who is in prison.

But you can't do that.

Huh?

You can't do that.

Well, he didn't tell us that.

His lawyer said it.

I didn't know.

I said, but his lawyer said it.

He doesn't say that as a threat.

He said, this is what I'm going to do.

This is my defense.

You're taking unfair advantage of this man.

You've got to go out as an agent.

There's no agent present.

Because it's agent role.

He hasn't testified as an agent present.

He hasn't.

He hasn't even known.

No, sir.

He hasn't.

Well, I didn't see him until a month ago.

That's fine.

There's great significance on your indictment, sir.

But you're arguing with the Congress.

Correct.

It's a narrow construction.

I don't hear your construction is not necessarily narrow.

It's a narrow construction of a doctrine.

It's applicable only to those who are agents for the president.

So he, being an agent?

To the extent that it's invoked within, he is per se an agent.

If he's an agent for...

the president involved in that earlier.

Yeah.

And the court takes judicial notice, for example, that the chief executive of those detective departments was respect to him.

And it's just a nice thing to be made with respect.

I don't know where I am.

Pardon?

No.

The states have made the president with me.

Oh, so basically, yes, they have made the president.

But you are trying to make a deal, aren't you?

Yes, sir.

And the problem is that the, what kind of a what you could make on the hell that I would assume would be all he wants to do, right?

Yes, sir.

You're prepared to give it to him.

You can give it to him.

Well, yeah, that's what I'm liking.

Right.

But only as a last resort.

And only if, only if we have other.

Well, the reason we have this is that we used to be big tyrants.

We made all the money, John Mitchell.

I didn't do so.

But you did.

You did.

Yes, sir.

You see, with McGregory, when I got one man, he's already lied once.

That's right.

I know a little about clergy.

And with me, you've got two men.

That's right.

If you get Lily, you've got three.

Yes, sir.

That is it.

I'm just on the range.

That's right.

That's why you're considering giving me money.

Yes, sir.

I haven't made it yet.

I don't want to make it.

I think it's going to look terrible.

I don't know if we can get a plane.

I don't know if we'd like to

Dispended.

I said, well, he wasn't pleased enough with his firing.

He wasn't pleased enough with his firing.

He doesn't want to keep it off.

He couldn't be honest with him.

He doesn't want to take it up with his firing, I'm sure.

Here's the situation.

You see, there's no bargaining between the second and the third.

Then they show bargaining on hand.

Is that correct?

Yes, sir.

In terms of time.

But you...

You think that might come today?

I don't think that we can satisfy his council's concerns today.

They may say, well, because he said .

His council said he ought not to go to jail before the others.

.

He suggested we could say this today.

He said that I would get from John early on in time.

In the past two weeks I think perhaps we could say for the past four or five years I've been talking to

I remember when I first saw Dean Coney and Senator McCann say that, I think that was before the election.

March 21st, March 21st, March 21st, the President has been conducting a personal investigation into the entire Watergate matter.

There have been, as a result of that investigation,

The purpose of that, I mean, the thing that I was talking about, is that he agrees with me that the president should be out in front.

The result of that is that that's when I run out of money, is that at least his recruiter or dean,

Can we add to that, Mr. President, in terms of your suggestion last night, that there has been some speculation that individuals involved in this thing

are protecting this guy's sense of loyalty to the office of the presidency, and that if you want to make it clear, you have some members of your staff and everyone involved, and that you expect their full cooperation with the prosecutors.

I would say that.

The problem is, and we said that before, you know, it's better.

I don't think you get it.

gets through, what do you think?

The president has again directed, I would say, has again directed that everyone, of all the individuals on his staff and the campaign committee, cooperate fully in this investigation with the US Attorney's Office, with the US Attorney, the United States Attorney.

Uh, I didn't put that to keep it out there.

And that, uh, and that, uh, you see, the disguised sense of loyalty thing is a very hard thing.

You see, I'm afraid, I'm afraid to throw that out there.

Right?

Thoroughly.

I think we better leave it right there.

It's directed.

The disguised sense of loyalty can handle an individual.

But this message has got to be true.

What you can say is that I'm not going to comment on the developments because of the

Or they could prejudice the rights of the, uh, of, uh, of the prosecution, right?

Uh, well, shall we say the, uh, they could prejudice the rights, they could, they could prejudice the prosecution.

Uh, or the rights of, uh, of defendants and innocent people.

But you see, they're not all defendants, okay?

Now, doing this, was it, you know, that paragraph?

that the major developments that are now being considered the grand jury.

As a result of this investigation, there have been some major developments that are now being considered the grand jury.

Having said that, we face a situation where

they will, having said this, will face a situation where they're going to have great push about the scope of this work.

And what's right for those people who are holding generation?

Well, they're under great pressure to move quickly with what they have.

So maybe you don't want to do that.

But then thirdly, doing this work would very likely

could have a tendency to recognize, further, to have a core issue statement.

So they have others in the game.

That could be the result of the statement.

Then, fourthly, I suppose we will receive extensive questioning in terms of, well, how is the governor conducting this investigation?

Is he involved in conducting the question?

Well, we would have to cut Dean out of the pattern.

We would almost be forced to, in response to questions, to cut Dean out of the pattern.

We'd have to say, no, that's not important.

It's a substantial speculation in terms of Dean's role.

And I don't know if John's state of mind at this point could lead to a new production of this part.

I think what I'm saying is that's important.

We should say nothing.

Well, there's another current going through this investigation now.

It's getting through to the participants and potential witnesses.

We're all very nervous and nobody wants to be the last one in.

They're all trying to get in first to talk and get the best deal they can.

Those who have not been contacted are nervous and waiting.

Something like this.

In other words, there's something else.

I don't think we can do it.

We just have to cover it raw in terms of the damn thing.

We also have this understanding.

I do want to have this understanding.

Can't we go out of this another way?

How so?

Well, you know, a lot of your friends in Congress are saying that kind of thing about the word investigation.

I don't know if you have maybe a ham a dozen over here, but both sides.

And we don't know.

That breaks the story bigger.

It'd be the same story.

I'd rather have it come out than see Dave go out and say that it's a major development.

It wouldn't be a little bit of a question.

What is she doing?

It's a question.

I think that's terribly important.

I don't want to get angry.

Maybe, maybe.

It's just one of the levels of warning.

Correct.

Can I also say that I, can I say that we don't want to get into the business, for example, that we say that I met today for the wrong location.

I met yesterday that I, that these, that these, that they were used for me.

Now let me say this first.

On Brian, the president, I think we should say, because he had, apparently not all, Brian is the president that gave the repetitive attorney general results of his own investigation.

Is that the effect now?

It overstates it.

Because you see, there are, I think, really,

We don't want to overthink about that.

All right, let's just say this, that he has had discussions over the weekend.

Why don't we say that?

He's had extensive discussions over the weekend with the American General Assembly.

And has been taken in on discussions, but over the weekend and today, he's had extensive discussions.

You better head on to Albany Court.

Uh, uh, could I be added to this?

It's impressive.

A personal investigation, after all.

After all, that was after the dissident from a quartercraft, in other words, because of allegations that have been publicly made.

I would say, as a result of the developments in the past several weeks, the President has done his best, sir.

Yeah, the President, to the President of the Party, Sweeney Bush, has undertaken a personal investigation, as you know, has undertaken a personal investigation, an intensive investigation, who's handling it.

He's done a personal investigation.

I just have to say that with all the facilities that they're available to, with all the facilities that they're available to, all that stuff is wrong.

And as the FBI has been saying over the weekend, he has met extensively with the attorney general.

It's brilliant.

It's not true.

Let me say this, I think, put it this way, I think, maybe the fact that I finally, when we get Dean, let's face him, let's face the fact, the very fact that I kept asking him, what the hell is this?

Go up in a hand, David, right?

I just, I can't write a report.

I think he can't, he can't fix the moment the truth has arrived.

That's why he can't talk to you.

That's what he told me yesterday.

Okay, so you see, that I think is something we can...

Now, as a matter of fact, I, uh, I must say I can move on with this, sir.

I'm kind of completely clear.

Should we express a concern?

Right.

Well, the questions are going to be natural.

Well, uh, obviously the president was unsatisfied with the report he got from the dean.

That's correct.

Yes.

You know, based on, based on, uh,

But, you know, based on the information, it's been a little bit, you know.

I'm concerned that you may not reach a point.

I'm just, you know, I'm concerned with your comments.

You have a line that the President is starting a personal investigation.

So the President, the President is concerned with evidence, and the evidence will determine where we go.

Yeah, but I would say, I'd say,

Gentlemen, any comments upon this would be harmful to the, to jeopardize the, getting the truth, getting the, to jeopardize the prosecution.

The rights of defendants are innocent people.

The rights of potential defendants are potential defendants are innocent people.

Therefore, there could be no further comment on it.

I just place it right out there.

I don't want to put the shot across the bow.

Let the nation scream out, let McCord go out.

That is the problem.

They don't have a lead.

Let's put it this way now.

We don't have a lead.

We've got a group of people, both approved and whatever.

We're going to take that and see whether we're going to run that by somebody.

They're probably going to take more or wait for more.

Yeah, okay.

Fine.

And then let me know right away how I'm going to finish and how you're going to get me back to the service.

Fair enough.

It's my inclination to go with that today.

We have no problem.

I'd be inclined to handle this on the basis of providing content.

In other words, what is the activity that we're going to do?

That's what we're going to do.

They all saw me when he was in church service.

Give it to him.

No, no, no.

I would just give it to the wire.

Just give it to the wire and say, John, I wonder what the president's been doing.

Where is he today?

He'll be in personal investigation.

But I want to know.

Well, that's the 21st I've been working my butt off, which I have.

I'm just sick of this thing.

I want to get it done.

Okay.

I don't want to hear a lot.

I don't want to come back tonight for a moment down to where our subjects are holding early.

Uh, let's let's make sure we understand what you are here.

I understand what you were saying last night from a legal standpoint, the case against that

making quite a difficult decision.

That's certainly true.

We expect that currently.

Yeah.

But ultimately, it's a much more difficult decision from a purely theoretical point of view.

Right.

Because of the money.

If Strachan confirms.

That he got the money.

That he had the budget report.

The money report, yeah.

If Strachan confirms that.

Strachan's going to .

If he confirms that he gave early report in a summary of intercepted conversation.

Right, right, right.

That shows he had prior knowledge, right?

And Dean testifies that he told Holden about the second meeting in Mitchell's office where these things were discussed.

I asked Dean today, I said, did Holden have any knowledge?

He said, no.

Did Earlyman have any knowledge?

He said, no.

I said, did you have any knowledge?

Dean said, no.

I said, I went to these meetings.

Dean gave me the same story.

He had to change the story the next day because I went to the meeting, but we thought we had it turned off.

That was his line.

But he said, that's before, but it's afterwards.

He said, they're both all over the earth and have problems.

That's what Dean tells me for whatever it's worth.

Can I tell you something?

He said, in Richard's office, we ought not to be discussing this in the office of the Attorney General.

Yeah.

All right.

That was worth it.

Maybe he construed that as turning it off.

It didn't turn at all.

He goes back to Haldeman and he says, we wouldn't have been involved in this shit if it was the way it was stated.

And Haldeman says, right, but so far as we can ascertain, nobody did anything.

So from a pretty hard and pretty hard to depict situation in Haldeman, in the public mind, I think as you said last time, I'm a very perceptive person.

The public mind.

That's right.

But legally.

That's right.

It's a really tough case because it rests on inaction.

But in any event, with respect to hold them in, that is a theoretical case.

Because they're going to be next to nothing.

I don't see what you mean, sir.

No, I was there, but I was asked not to go back to Gray.

I was talking to you, you know, and stuff.

I talked to her earlier than two.

I guess that you're going to hear that they, at least not all of them, they didn't turn over a packet to Gray.

Just to run back to Gray.

Early on, I didn't believe that.

That's what they did to Gray.

This was in the Bureau of Agents, which is Christ.

One thing, we talked about protection.

You don't get graves on a meeting if you don't know.

And you've got to try to find the man.

You've got to get a hundred folks in the Senate.

Jesus Christ, that's the...

I mean, now we're not talking about protecting an individual.

Graves must know, and frankly, he can't die.

Is this something you should regard as a man, Mr. President?

Not really.

I think that you're right to regard him as a man.

But you see, his memory might be folded in this.

My point is, my point is, I don't feel as though it's trained legislation.

It's activated by itself.

Well, I don't think...

I'm not telling you not to do it.

I don't think that it's especially germane.

That's right.

But it's important

to determine whether or not Dean's telling the truth.

It's a literal fact.

It's a literal fact, but if it can be established that he's telling the truth.

All right, I suppose you might have heard of it.

They did try to mispractice it, or whatever it was.

Then we could call Gray and ask him, where is he?

Well, I'll go see him again.

We were willing to pursue it.

You see, Gray's, Gray's, if I can just suggest, Gray's reaction, if he didn't get it, would mean, in my opinion, if we asked him if he'd get it, he'd get something.

And they told me this is political stuff.

And we don't want it.

That's what I understand.

We're going to correct it.

I got this stuff here.

It's all but it's clear that this doesn't relate.

Why don't I just give it to you?

I'd probably take it.

I think it's very understandable, but I can understand it's a denial.

That's important.

Well, he's got it.

He doesn't have it now.

That's the point.

So he's washed it.

Well, it was a danger of the river.

Well, that's just...

I have a recollection of salt.

I say a recollection.

Dean has told me that it's running critically.

And, uh, I believe he knows that.

We're going to go back to it again.

Oh, all right.

Okay, I'll find it.

I'll get you out of here.

Right here, Mr. President.

I'll get you out of here.

The point is that there are other items according to the defense, not the defense, that were missing, both of which were notebooks.

And we can't find those notebooks.

Dean says, Curley says they have no recollection of those notebooks.

One says they were there.

And so only to the extent that the notebooks are missing, which one says were germane.

How did you tell him you were in Washington?

No, sir.

Is he going to?

He's going to be very artful and very enduring.

Is there anything in it for him?

I suppose that's the thing.

He was testifying under compulsion.

He was immunized.

We're going to have him back, particularly with respect to TV.

His testimony with respect to Dorothy was unbelievable.

We were once in trouble with the income tax bureau.

Ever since then, we can stick $100 bills in the top of our closets.

That's what $10,000 came from.

That he gave to his wife, Dorothy.

which he had on her when the plane was down and she was killed.

She's alleged to be in a meeting area with her parents.

I read that in the paper.

But he died on that issue.

I think his lawyer is very concerned.

The lawyer got $156,000.

Good morning.

He's a good friend of mine.

He's a good lawyer.

He's prosecuted to half a case.

His problem is...

He's very upset about it.

Does he think he was paid off?

Does he think...

Well, I don't think he cares where his sneak came from.

Let's be real.

He's concerned about the allegations that McCord made.

One thing that's got to be thought through.

One thing about Colson, the one thing that I would be concerned about is that he's got a house.

So he's got a circumstantial problem.

I don't know whether Hart may have told him.

I don't know what he did.

Yeah.

He told them that he had taken the logs and his label, you know, was limited to General 1700 Pennsylvania Act.

Then, as he told us, he couldn't remember the name.

And they went through a whole string of names, you know, whoever they were.

And each one, he kept saying no.

And finally, Jason Murray Johnner, he said no.

So they, after they concluded all their requests and names and what have you, they went back and there was just a flyer.

Judge Sirica, when he, in connection with the subpoena issue, here's part of the tapes and here's John Lee's name.

He said to Silver, I want these people subpoenaed.

And that's where he shot her, in public.

So Silver said, well, all these people are very very

This man had nothing to do with it.

He's been crawling around ever since.

Now, the L.A. Times told me that they went to trouble with John.

I know that.

I know Murray with the back of my hand.

He's too smart.

Well, that's what he told the L.A. Times.

He said, if I had to do it, it would have been done well.

But he never has done it.

No, sir.

We have no evidence.

I assure you that I know that.

I may not know other things, but I know that.

It's become a matter of principle with us.

We will not subpoena.

We have no reason to subpoena.

If Sir Richard wants us to subpoena, he's just, I think, going to have it.

The only way his name is mentioned is because they were trying to determine who.

And I talked to the L.A. Times.

We didn't go that far.

And they say absolutely nothing.

We're going to answer all questions.

It's a big fish, but flounder.

Coming back to the hole, I digressed and we went off.

It proved, potentially, that the day has confirmed the money thing is strong.

So the day you're putting the net on that money,

You see, you said yesterday, they should resign.

Let me tell you, they should resign.

They get splashed with this crack.

Now, the point is,

is the timing.

I think that it's like a true question.

I think it would be really hanging the guy before something comes in.

If I say, look, you guys resign, because I understand that Mr. Dean and alignments and Mr. McGruder and others have made some charges against him.

I got their oral reservations last night.

And they volunteered, and they said, look, we want to go anytime.

So I just want your advice on it.

I don't know what to do with it.

Well, I guess there's nothing to worry about.

That is the thing.

I mean, I talked to my boss this morning.

I told him to write it out.

It's under way.

How about .

I just wonder if you won't have them walk the plank before the rooter splashes or what have you at all.

I mean, I have information, it's true.

Mr. President, I'm sorry to say, I think

Mindful of the needs and confidence in your own business.

Yes.

On what basis?

That has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

What basis?

How would you have them submit their resignation?

Well, when they say they, I'm much more concerned about early men than I am about old men.

Because early men, we have much less in terms of potential involvement.

Okay, yeah, that goes to the quality of the information.

If it was trash, you get rid of the damn stuff.

It's no good.

And that may be great, yeah.

That's right.

And the other thing, you know, with respect to hunt, that's a little more sensitive.

That, obviously, someone, you know, they're closely associated with you, tells hunt to get out of their country.

Yeah, I think a tremendously sensitive piece of information.

But he didn't go because the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

And that's the way it comes through religion.

God tells us that's the way it is.

My principles, my principles, my principles say, what do you want?

Get out of the country, huh?

It doesn't seem to me that that fact reaches the light of day.

There can be anything else, but

If I were her, I would feel like I had to go.

Even her.

Both of them.

How would you feel about all of this?

Well, it would be even more strong.

Yes, sir, assuming.

Now, back to what we had.

Dean says he discussed this with Goldman.

Goldman didn't say stop.

I can tell you, one of my prosecutors came in and said another prosecutor was outplugging somebody in organized crime.

I did not say we ought not to be involved in this.

I told him to say stop it.

Did Dean say he discussed debugging or not?

He discussed the substance of the budget proposals, which included debugging operations, with all of it, and said we ought not to be involved in this, and all of it agrees, but nothing happens.

Neither one of them stopped it.

I don't know.

Maybe they're both floating around right by John Mitchell.

I don't know.

He now says that he discussed the buggy operation.

That's what I want to know.

I didn't understand him when he said that.

I must have said something that was wrong.

What did McGruder say?

He says, when he came back from the second meeting, he told Holman, just in turn, we ought not to be involved in this.

Nobody does anything.

He didn't do that for you, I guess.

Well, uh...

I mean, he should have told you about Holman.

It's only hard to debrief a man, Mr. President, in an hour or two, if you know.

Yeah, well, I mean, I asked him specifically, did Holman know, and so forth, and he said no.

My guest, Mickey, he was being perfectly honest.

He told me that just this morning.

I said, he had no knowledge before, and he didn't earn it.

And he said he didn't mean it.

But I guess what he meant was that he didn't reconcile it at all, did I say?

That he had told all of us about it, and all of us, and didn't know that it went forward.

And that's what he said.

That would not make all of us wild in this case.

In fact, he didn't stop it.

He didn't have the responsibility.

I'm looking at it from a legal standpoint.

On a public standpoint, that's particularly reliable for not being in the order.

I suppose being able to support and be in the line of support.

Who has authority in your act with respect to the police?

I told you.

Hall.

Where?

He did not have any authority.

All men.

He had no authority.

I would let him.

Then you're left with the fact that he has knowledge of that he doesn't act upon.

Knowledge of what?

That comes out of this prison of penalty.

This prison has a statute that, you know, hardly ever orders to put everybody in jail, I suppose, if you tried to.

Knowledge.

That's right.

Knowledge is being considered.

That's right.

The title said it was sitting right there.

Discussing budget proposal code.

I forgot that.

Yeah, I think I had it in those notes there.

It came back to the White House after the meeting.

We told them all of it.

uh about these proposals that were being discussed in the office of the attorney general said we ought not to be involved in both of the greens but nobody stopped the operation should we do it i gotta talk to bill rogers

Damn it, I'm crazy.

I don't want all of them to go and then have to go and have her go and get caught, get my point.

I think they both... Look, if they're going to go, they're both going to go, don't they?

They've got to go together.

I think so, yes, sir.

Because, I don't know how I look to you, but to the outside, they're almost a team.

That's right.

And...

So, to let one go and the allegations with the other, you know, the next day we develop the... Well, you have a very close call.

The real question is to get, whether you let the intruder strike the blow.

I don't think so.

That's the problem.

I don't know how long it is.

I'm just trying to think about whether or intruder strike.

They don't bother because this may be external injustice to both of those men.

They don't let me put it this way.

I really got a very important position to have them go before he does.

Well, that's correct.

I agree with that.

I can't announce being going today.

That would jeopardize your prosecution or county council.

Very serious.

You're your own agent on that.

As long as I can say.

I'm going to get it.

But you don't want me to make you told me earlier.

You don't want me to make that public.

I don't want.

I don't.

I wouldn't be in a position to say that John Dean.

John, I do not recommend that the president take your resignation.

As long as I can say that.

He's been here, he's talked to you, he's made the two of you.

Your timing on that isn't okay with him.

I see.

You even announced me today.

Yes, sir.

That would definitely frustrate me.

No, we still have to bargain with him.

But I don't, I don't see that he's trying to use that.

But I don't see that.

As long as I can say, the prosecution team can say, we did not recommend that.

How is he trying to use it?

I think I'm a little bit concerned about being concerned.

It's going to happen.

Above all else, I don't think the president is a person.

The president, you see, has an office that's being illustrated.

Because of her, because of all of it.

That may be true.

That's poker.

That's what they say.

That statement has made an evil argument.

Charlie Chambers is a very committed and emotional, able lawyer.

I'm not going to leave.

If I have to do this, I'll do this in return.

That's the way it comes out.

You asked me about that point specifically, about reporting the whole thing.

Yeah, on the budget proposal.

Yeah, I will.

I need to know that.

This morning .

I guess you've got problems there.

You've got to go to the judge.

You've got to make a deal with this.

Well, that's probably what I should do.

That's right.

I don't cut him off with the others.

We can't, we can't give you too much.

We've got to go over there and spread a moon.

Look, good job.

Now, uh, uh, I can get any, I need to know an inverter.

I've got to keep on top of this.

I've got to get an inverter bracelet.

And, uh,

Perhaps by the 90s you will know what a strong business of ours is.

I may call you on, say, on the...

I would say not before 8.

I'll call you on 9.

On 9.

9 is fine.

Can I give you a chance?

Can you not make my kids feel old?

Oh, yeah.

I'm not going to make them feel old.

I'm going to make them feel strong in the room.

Yes, I'm going to be able to do that.

I'm going to make them feel strong in the home.

Thank you.