Conversation 428-019

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I thought that occurred to me that I hope you will do directly.

Why don't you code up from the Bureau of Budget the cost of retaining the 45 days that we're closing and say, in effect,

that those who would open the bases would add $3 billion or $5 billion to the military budget, or $1.5 billion, whatever it is.

To get my point, maybe it's $800 billion.

But if you put it in a round number, in other words, if you put it in terms of each base, you'd get murdered.

But if you put it in terms of what, you see, with all this business, let's cut the defense budget.

The whole point is that here, these guys can't have it both ways.

But...

I don't know what the number is, but I'm sure that when you add 45, and then said I just wouldn't do it on an annual basis, I'd say it's over.

Well, it's $400 million per year, but if you put it up, yeah, you could say $2 billion over the next five years, something like that, okay?

Well, you probably already said it, but I was seeing it on that, and no, we expected to eat up.

That's right, and that's a very good way to get at it, to say, well, now this, the talk about this base is that the case that we are having, submitting a very lean budget, we've closed 45 bases, and some of those, including some of the libs that we have in districts, you know, the unilateral timers, they don't want their base closed.

They want their case, but anyway, I just didn't want you to take the, you're shallow, I know you want to kick them back a little bit to do that.

Yeah.

They want to change priorities.

You can't keep the honors, right?

Well, it's like the battle of the budget.

Just fight it right on.

Yes, sir.

Well, the basis doesn't bother me.

I'm done.

Well, the basis doesn't bother me at all.

I'm done.

Thank you.

That's right.

I'll tell you what I think

That's the point, I think there are other ways to get at it.

I don't know, I was thinking of the, before we get into that, though, that's the fact, that's something we've got to get at.

I'd like to get, I'd like to go in, if I could, what your conversation with Colton was, and in essence, what was your,

What did he and the lawyer talk about?

That visit was to tell me that Hunt was going to testify.

How does he know that?

How does he get such information?

That was what he proved it.

Why is Hunt testifying?

What did he say?

He said, I'll tell you what he said, and I'll tell you what I think the fact is.

He said Hunt was testifying because there was no longer any point in being silent.

That so many other people were testifying.

That there was no, he wasn't really keeping any secrets.

There wasn't that much.

My feeling is that Bittman got very antsy when this great jury started focusing on the answer.

How did that one help?

that the whole thing is going to fall in, in short order, all right?

That Mitchell and Bruder will be involved terribly.

The, uh...

I hope we'll say, all right, that you have lost any possibility of initiative or participation in the process.

He wants you to do several things.

He wants you to persuade Liddy to talk.

Me?

Yes, sir.

I didn't bring my notes, but basically last night you didn't mention it.

I don't know if I can.

Maybe you didn't make it.

I didn't make it.

I would frankly let Lydia know.

You can't bring him in.

He's in jail.

Oh, you would send word to him that the president wanted you to make a full disclosure, or in some way you would be activist on this score.

There's no, that isn't the problem.

He wants you to be able to say afterward if you crack the cables.

Go ahead, what else?

Basically, he feels that the next 48 hours are the last chance for the White House to get out in front of us.

And once that goes on, then that's the ballgame.

But you've got to be out in front earlier.

Well, I mean, I'm sorry, not earlier, but public earlier.

Either publicly or with provable, identifiable steps, which could be referred to later as having been the price.

I'm not talking because we think the president doesn't want to be talked about.

According to them, Mitchell's given him a promise of a pardon.

According to Colson and Shapiro.

And I don't know where they get that.

I have an uneasy feeling that that recruiter story may have been planted.

There's a third recruiter phone call which I haven't heard that says, says he did talk to a reporter on Monday.

... ... ... ... ... ... ...

All these pieces might be put together now.

Might become an intruder.

Where in the hell does Colson get such a thing?

Or is Colson Laro?

Laro says he has a very good press contact.

It has proved very reliable to him.

He says his practice in this town depends on his knowledge of what's going on.

He's coded a press contact.

This is one of them.

We've always found that he says that he's talking to the critter, and the critter says that.

And I told him, I said, we'll never get in contact with the critter.

And the critter man talked to some of the press.

But in a great detail, the way Colson did it, he said he had Colson in it too, but not in any way that was particularly bad.

Well, I think like so many things, this got planted as a little seed by Shapiro with Colson.

I just don't get what's happening.

He's got this report from Danny Hoffman at the bar in Bahamas.

One night he said to Hoffman, Jesus, everybody was involved in this.

He did.

Everybody knew about it.

Mitchell, Baldwin, Colson, Dean, the president.

He specifically said the president.

I'm sure he doesn't believe that.

No.

And I've got to try to.

I'm curious.

It is not.

I should tell somebody.

There is no deeper requirement.

You check your Washington law.

District of Columbia is under federal law, and the federal law does not require disclosure to the other party of requiring a phone conversation.

The phone call was made to Magooder's lawyer's office, which is also in the District of Columbia.

So both ends of the conversation are in the District of Columbia, and there is no law requiring disclosure.

Well, that's perfectly legal.

But anyway, anyway, it may not be admissible, but it's legal.

That's better to say.

What is the situation?

I'll get past this in a hurry.

What is the situation, John, in your opinion?

What does Colson's

And or Shapiro's motive in building up the Margarita story, or maybe he believed in it.

Their innuendo is that Mitchell has put the Margarita up to this.

I get it.

Okay.

There's the motive.

Now, I'm sorry.

I don't believe that.

Me either.

Not at all.

Mitchell has tried to do it.

Huh?

I don't believe Mitchell has tried to do it.

He doesn't think they'll give him a chance back unless he comes running at them.

I'm not sure he's rid of it, but it certainly reduces it.

.

come to the other things

uh... uh...

The only possible involvement of the president in this is that now.

Apparently, Don, either you or Bob or Dean, somebody told me they said the host was not that disgusting.

I didn't.

You didn't.

How did it get to you then, John?

How did you know that the matter had to be discussed with them or something?

Why did this happen?

I remember a conversation this day.

It was about 5, 30, or 6 o'clock.

And Colson only dropped it in sort of parenthetically.

He said, I've had a little problem today.

We're talking about other things.

I said, I've got to reassure them and go for it.

And I said, well, that's it.

He told me about Hunt's wife.

He said, it's a terrible thing.

And I said, obviously, we'll do good.

You take that into consideration.

That was the total of the conversation.

Well, we had had a couple of conversations in my office with Colson.

I had with Colson.

Well, who was getting to Colson?

Who had written to Colson?

Oh, I wrote Colson a very, I think, abandoned letter.

What was it, John?

I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Oh, Colson, you knew about this one.

Colson came in to tell me about it.

And he said, what shall I do?

And I said, well, I think somebody better talk to him.

The guy is obviously very distraught, and I'm feeling a bit as good as I want.

And he said, well, what can I tell him about the plot of Cedar Park?

I said, you can't tell him anything about the plot of Cedar Park.

And I said, under no circumstances should this ever be raised with the president.

Well, he raised it, I must say.

... ... ... ... ...

Well, I'll tell you what I wasn't beaten or somebody told me.

He said he didn't.

He just talked and saw Bethany casually or on the phone or something like that.

Oh.

He said to Bethany, he said, I, he said, I, he said, I, listen, I have written it.

He said, I, I, I know that, I know about Hunt's concern about the pharmacy.

I, Chuck Olson, feel terrible about it because I knew his wife.

And he said, I will go to bat for him, and I have reason to believe that my views would be illicit.

So in the last part, he says he talked a bit, and he was very skillful in avoiding any commitment.

He said that he was pitching him, but that he wasn't catching him.

Well, he said I had a tape of that meeting or a tape of the conversation or something.

So that's where he lost his thread.

He said you indeed told him to promise.

And he was smarter than you.

You said you indeed told him to promise.

Well, anyway, whatever the case might be, let me ask the question.

Well, just so we know.

Does he indicate that Hunt's going to talk to that subject person?

He didn't say that.

I didn't ask you.

Well, going back to the basis, John, as I recall, they don't have any expectations.

We don't know how they know how it's going to affect them.

We assume it's a different code.

Right?

They don't have any indication based on their knowledge that it's going to affect them.

but it also would be hearsay.

However,

There.

Now, Colson says that they didn't discuss money at that point.

Hunt could say, I went ahead and I showed this whole plan to Colson, and Colson picked up the phone and talked to McRaven.

Does Colson realize his vulnerability to that?

Well, of course Colson claims he has no vulnerability because when Hunt and Liddy came in and talked to him, they talked in very general terms.

I understand that.

So he doesn't acknowledge that there's any possibility.

I understand that, but I just simply say that Hunt and Liddy could charge that.

That's the point.

If they talk...

I would assume they would get into that point with him.

I've asked Colson specifically about that conversation, and he maintains that they were talking in general terms about intelligence, and when they said intelligence, he meant one thing and apparently they meant another.

Question, for example, is Hunt preparing to talk on other activities?

Well, I couldn't derive that.

I couldn't get that at all.

A U.S. attorney out of this home would not be pressing for that.

Ordinarily not.

If I could name a board, McCord volunteered this hang three-spun thing gratuitously.

Can you tell me?

Is that a serious thing?

Did they agree?

I guess they actually got it.

What in the name of Christ, though, did they agree?

It's not got anything to do with Mitchell or anybody.

Nothing.

Well, now Mitchell.

Here's Hughes.

And these two fellows, Colson and Shapiro, Colson threw that out.

Hughes on whom?

Well, you know, the Hughes thing is cutting the two factions.

I don't know.

I don't know why.

The two of them put on the lowest parade for me.

I don't know.

He says he doesn't know even who Hagrid's son is.

All right.

Let me just take a minute further and run out the Hunt thing.

Hunt's testimony on payoffs

uh...

handed him the money, he in turn handed it to his wife, and she was the go-between to the judge.

For what purpose?

I think he'll both hang him up on obstruction of justice.

Why didn't he do that?

Why didn't he simply, why didn't he accomplish his purpose simply by saying he'd give the money to him and nobody would be crawling out there apparently?

This is what Colson told you.

That's right.

I don't have any other information.

Now, that raises the problem regarding Combox as possible vulnerability as to whether he was aware.

In other words, the motive.

This doesn't add anything to the Combox problem at all.

What happened is that Dean called Combox.

What did Dean call Kambach about?

He said, we have to raise some money in connection with the aftermath, and I don't know how he described it to her.

Herb said, how much do you need?

We've never discussed it.

Dean told him, and Herb went to a couple of donors, got some money, sent it back.

Dean said, very glad that Kambach did not know the purpose of the money, and had no problem.

Dean didn't know the purpose of the money.

So basically then, Hunt will testify that it was so-called hush money.

Again, my water can't rise any higher than the source.

I'm damned.

What does that serve him?

I mean, would it serve him?

The only thing it serves him is would it reduce his heavy sentences or anything?

That's right.

That's what it ought to be, and that's got to be the story.

That will be the defense of the people, right?

Right.

I heard something about that at a much later time.

And frankly, not knowing much about it.

I thought it was perfect and proper.

Would it be perfect and proper in the defense of the Chicago 7?

The Chicago 7?

That's not fair.

Well, I don't think it's the defense.

They take care of the living expenses.

Despite what all this crap was, there's legal fees.

They take care of them.

Remember the Scottsboro case?

right the the communist front pays a million dollars to the scottsboro people 900 000 so it's common practice yeah nevertheless that's hunt then saying there was a payoff all right on other activities uh hunt then according to colson would not uh

And then what Colson meant about the door of the Oval Office.

I'll have to get back to that.

I'm sure it was there.

I didn't want to get it right.

No, but it was.

No, not.

It was in an earlier conversation.

It was going to be said about the Magruder conversation.

When Colson was there.

I think on the Magruder conversation, from what I've seen, he could have made that.

But Magruder doesn't know the door of the Oval Office.

He doesn't even know that.

But he is Colson's.

I think what he's really referring to, John, is that by reason of Colson, by reason of Magruder, Nalen Haldeman, and Colson, that that's the door to the Oval Office.

I don't know what else, because if nobody else is around, nobody physically around, well, I don't think so either.

Let me just say a couple of things.

We have to get, well, we have to get, regarding your, regarding your, your views and so forth and so on, on the day,

Last night, John, you and Bob or somebody, I guess you and I were talking about somebody going to see Mitchell.

You suggested Rogers.

Any other better names?

Why don't I have it up and down the list?

Why didn't you say Rogers?

Well, I suggested Rogers because... First, let me tell you the purpose of mission.

Tell me what it is.

The purpose of the mission is to go and bring him to a focus on this.

So you mean here he is about...

And the president strongly feels that the only way that this thing can end up being even a little net plus for the administration and for the presidency and preserve some thread is for you to go ahead and voluntarily make a statement.

Thank you.

I have a statement that basically says you've got to go beyond that.

I am both morally and legally responsible.

Now, the reason for Rogers is that he's clean, number one.

He has been both attorney general and has this other senatorial background.

And there isn't anybody that Mitchell trusts except Baldwin.

He hates Rogers.

I don't know Dan.

He doesn't trust Rogers, but he would know that Rogers came, that it was you.

Now, the only other alternative, going up and down, also, from a public viewpoint, Rogers is the dean of the cabinet.

And it's logical to name this as an attorney of corporate territory.

There are 50 reasons not to do this.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And there have consistently been.

You go back through the history of this.

I know, but now is the time to do something.

Now is the only time, probably, and I'm persuaded by that argument.

Oh, I have, too.

I'm not arguing about not doing it.

I'm just trying to talk about the name.

Okay.

In going down the list, John Alexander is the only other one that I've come to that in any way could bridge it.

Barron can't do it.

Well, let me give you another name.

Let me give you another name.

Ken Rush.

He's a retired time lawyer.

He's really clean.

He's had a long time friend potential.

He's not a close friend, but he's going, you know, in the yard.

I don't know.

I don't understand at all.

I don't know how evil Russia is.

I just don't know.

Another name, two other names that have occurred to me that I'll throw out.

One is Elliot Richardson.

And the other is McClendon.

There is another possibility, and that's Henry Peterson.

I must say, I'm impressed with the argument.

The person should be personally involved in it at this stage.

Right.

I agree.

Hold on.

I was working on something I'll tell you about here.

Well, not much last night.

I mean, another subject.

Hold on.

There is no other subject.

You said that this week there is no other subject.

Now, I'll tell you, last time I got home, I decided that I would sit down and try to put down on paper a report to you of what I've been doing since you asked me to get in.

Right.

I'm concerned about the overall aspect of this, and then I'm going to talk about that for you.

I don't know what your timing is like.

No problem.

We'll get back to it.

I've got money.

Bye.

He called and he said, all right, here's the scenario.

We've all been trying to figure out how to make this go.

He says, the president calls Mitchell into his office on Saturday.

He says, John, you've got to do this.

Here are the facts.

Bing, bing, bing, bing.

And you've got to go do this.

And Mitchell stonewalled him.

... ... ...

And with that, President Pelosi goes and turns and says, I, the President of the United States of America, and the leader of the free world, want to go before the grand jury.

That's it.

But I mean, we're difficult to think.

We're running out every line.

So that was 12.30 this morning.

But I am going to go before the grand jury.

I am.

That's why I put a bottle on national television.

Let's take it just as far as you calling Mitchell into the Oval Office.

As a cult, essentially convinced that Mitchell is the lynchpin.

and that if he goes in, they can resign from the administration.

If he doesn't, then we're confident we don't worry about him.

Then there's others.

If you have a report from me based on three weeks' work, that when you got it, you immediately acted to call Mitchell in as a provable wrongdoer, and you say, my God, I've got a report here, and it's clear from this report that you are guilty as hell.

Now, John, for Christ's sake, go on in there and do what you should.

And let's get this thing cleared up and get it off the country's back and move on.

And plus, to the other side of the moon, that's the only way to do it.

Now, from John Mitchell's own personal viewpoint, that's the only salvation for John Mitchell.

And obviously, once you've had it, you've made it.

You're not going to make it anyway.

I don't know whether he said this to you or not.

The only way it could hurt you is if it ultimately went to Mitchell, and that that would be the one man you couldn't afford to let get run like this.

Even worse than you, he thought so.

So the minister, yeah.

Maybe because he's the epitome of your dominant hard line.

I think he's wrong about that.

I think Mitchell's the worst one.

Well, due to the closeness to the president at the time of the crime.

But would you agree, John?

Oh, it's bad.

That's why I see it.

But?

uh... uh... uh...

I strongly agree.

and that the solution here, if we can find it, maybe it's impossible.

But the solution is, I believe, in some way.

Where did McGruder come to to be a U.S. attorney?

Well, why don't I urge McGruder to do it?

I mean, let me look at this.

The urging of Liddy to testify, the urging of McGregor to testify, and the Mitchell thing.

John, I didn't mean to stop your overall analysis, but I think I know what you're...

Isn't that really the essence of it?

I'm trying to write the news magazine story for next Monday.

Right.

Monday of the week.

And if it is that the grand jury indicts Mitchell, right, the White House main effort to cover up

uh... uh... uh...

That's one set of facts.

And the tag on that is the White House press secretary, Ron Sigler, said that the White House – I don't.

I can't be done.

The other one goes – and that's moved swiftly.

Last week, after the president was presented with a report indicating that for the first time,

That suspicion of John Mitchell and Jeff Bruder as ringleaders in the Watergate break-in were in fact substantiated by considerable evidence.

The President then dispatched so-and-so to do this and that, and it may be to see Mitchell or something of that kind.

And these...

efforts resulted in Mitchell going to the U.S. Attorney's Office on Monday morning at 9 o'clock, asking to testify before the grand jury.

Charges of cover-up by the White House were materially dispelled by the diligent efforts of the President and his aides in moving on evidence which came to their hand in the closing days of the previous week.

I buy that.

Okay.

The only thing until we get down to the patent.

Now, I've been concerned because since the end of March, I have turned up a fair amount of hearsay evidence that points at this guy.

I'll just take that.

So did he.

And so did John.

So did Dean.

Now, taking this, we've tried, very honestly, we've tried to look at it the best way we could.

Maybe he couldn't, maybe he really didn't know.

Well, it's hearsay.

And so you don't hang a guy, you don't hang a guy necessarily.

But I stood over there at Bob's office and listened to that tape of one of the co-actors

on the tape that he was guilty and that Mitchell was going to fall and all that.

And I should have said that.

Yeah, we can't.

And I said to myself, my God, I'm a United States citizen.

I'm standing here listening to this.

What is my duty?

Well, the fight is you've now told me.

That's correct.

See, the problem with my position up to this time has been, quite frankly, nobody's ever told me the goddamn thing.

That's right.

Well, we still don't know.

I will still argue that I think the scenario that was still spent

He spun out to Mitchell.

It's basically the right one.

I don't think Mitchell did order the Watergate buggy, and I don't think he was specifically aware of the Watergate buggy at the time of his interview.

Well, I honestly don't.

That may be.

Here's what he told you.

For your information, here's what he told Rebosa.

That's why I asked, does it have to be a lawyer?

Mm-hmm.

Well, anyway, let me tell you what he told Rebozo right after, I don't know where, a month ago.

He said, he said, you know, I may have hurt you myself, but I sure did not miss calling you.

Now

As far as equality in the grand jury, that's right.

As far as equality in the other systems, may I just digress for one point that has nothing to do with this, except that you've got the bicycle and the dance.

It's essential that the Rogers departure be delayed until this is over.

Now, what the hell with Henry on this?

Why do any member of the cabinet except Plumsey leave during this?

There's no way that he's going to leave anyway.

And you've got to talk to the defense.

You've got to just, and Henry, it's not appealable.

You've just got to say to Henry, there are bigger things here.

There's a lot of things.

Huh?

There's just no one.

You can say, all right, fine.

Just say, Rogers, you've got to stay.

Well, this thing's over.

Right, John, you agree?

Maybe out of the woods.

Out of the woods, no.

Well, to go back to... All right.

I only mentioned BDU because of the thing right there.

Let me...

Excuse me.

Go ahead with your answer.

Well, all I was going to say is that... All right.

I don't have evidence.

I'm convinced.

You don't have evidence.

I'm not convinced he's guilty.

That's it.

But I'm convinced that he ought to go before the grand jury.

And what I did last night, this morning, was to write out what would in fact be a report to you.

All right.

All I know about my relationship with Mitchell from his side is what others tell me.

He's never, he's never, you know, but the Mitchell problem, the Mitchell problem with Roger has been totally great, I think.

My point is that Mitchell thinks he's a snake and has not been loyal, which he has not been.

I don't mean disloyal and wrong, but in a sense.

When Mitchell was standing up on Camp Odeon, May 8, Roger was sulking.

Let's put it in a setting.

Mitchell has felt from the days of Hainsworth and Carswell, the jury out, that I disapproved of him.

And that I, and in fact, it fell my lot to second guess his operation of the Justice Department day after day after day.

I know, I know.

Let's come around, let's come around again, though.

You know the case.

You've conducted the investigation for me.

You've reported to me.

And I've asked you to go up and lay it on the ground and make sure we can tell Mitchell, look, there's only one thing that can save him.

I think John's got to hear that kind of talk.

And I think he's got to hear it from somebody that doesn't.

I just think you bring the Rogers and tell him through all this stuff.

God damn it, Mitchell will wind him around his head.

Well, there's our problem.

If you want me to go, I'll go.

I think I've been mentioned in one of your meetings.

The message to Garsh has got to be killed.

Bob has a pretty good feel of Mitchell's attitude toward me that I don't have.

Well, Mitchell's attitude toward you is not going to be, first, it's going to be a better for Rush.

It wouldn't be toward Rush.

But in the name of God, it may not.

Rush is smart.

He's a good man.

And he's a man, incidentally, that we can consider.

You can't argue the facts of this case.

Rush is a man.

You need a special man in the White House.

I was thinking last night that he is the best man I can think of to bring over, to advise the president on this goddamn thing, and examine all the White House things, to look at all the FBI files, to look at jury reports, to report the FBI files, and give me a report.

He's articulate.

He's before television.

He's respected.

He's one of the towering figures in the ambassadorial world and in the barn.

He's no slouch.

No, no, no, no, Bob.

For Christ's sakes, the point that I make is, let's suppose they're getting mentioned.

Then they're going to say, now, what about Holman?

And what about Chapin?

And what about Colson?

I'd love to have a report indicating that we've got a whole segretti crap in there.

I want somebody to say, now, look, here are the facts.

None of the White House people were involved.

There are no other higher-ups.

The White House was not involved, but a camper.

And second, more than that, and then takes the segretti crap.

In parsing this out,

Dean remains a problem.

And here's, let me just read you what I've come to about this.

Gandhi has not involved himself in this matter for several months, and properly so.

I should not continue to fill it in for him.

for several reasons, including the impermissible demands of my time.

You need a full-time special counsel to follow these related problems.

We can advise you of the legal niceties from his experience in constitutional criminal criminal practice.

I'll be happy to continue to consult with him.

I do not recommend that Dean take a leave.

That is neither in nor out.

He has involved himself to the extent described above.

Either that requires dismissal or it does not, and that choice should be made at once.

Yeah.

He got off with plea bargaining for a misdemeanor.

A misdemeanor?

Yeah.

That's all a goddamn thing ever was.

And he got an undetermined sentence and was suspended.

Right.

A track never served an hour.

Yeah.

Didn't serve in jail.

But not only, you see, Bob, he was indicted on the felony.

He was not indicted on the felony, but a plea bargaining to a misdemeanor.

Gets off with a no sentence and so forth.

How in the hell?

Who got that spurry out?

Apparently, two or three papers got wind of it.

But the interesting thing is that Dash had made a formal statement earlier that that didn't disqualify him to do about it.

And Dash has a beautiful statement on the front page of the paper, which is, a man wouldn't be a good investigator if he hadn't been in trouble a couple, one or two times.

Urban must have looked at that.

I don't know.

Well, you haven't asked me how I come out of this.

I just brought it to a focus.

I think you have to decide up or down, Dean.

Now, what do you think about that?

Oh, let's see.

What does Dean say when you're telling him that?

He doesn't agree with that.

I know he doesn't agree, but what does he do?

He wants to stay and just disconnect himself from this case.

He says, yes, that's right.

Make your decision now, but make your decision that I should stay.

I don't think there's anybody that can talk to Mitchell except somebody that knows this case.

I don't know.

I agree, I'm not trying to, I don't mind, I'll take this in one minute.

You see, John, is that there's nobody really that can do it except you.

And I know how it should be.

But you conducted this investigation.

The way I would do it, I'd go out and say, President, ask me to see if you have come in today with this

indicating, of course, that the grand jury is moving swiftly.

The recruiter will be indicted if you make it.

Under the circumstances, time is of the essence.

You can't be in a position where you, the grand jury, can't have it.

I am responsible.

I did not know.

But I assume the responsibility.

Nobody in the White House is involved in so forth and so on.

We did try to help these defendants afterwards, yes.

You probably would not deny that anyway.

They probably would not ask that of you.

But we suggested that the defendants are entitled to that.

Well, you're bossing.

I don't think you can do that.

All right.

I wouldn't want to.

All right.

Oh, all right.

Fine, fine.

What would you say to him?

Let me hear you.

I'd say to Jim, you know, basically, Jake is up, John, and I've listened to Kruger, and he's going to, in my opinion, he's about to blow.

And that's the last straw.

And also, Hunt is going to testify Tuesday, Monday, we understand.

We've got to think of this thing from the standpoint of the president.

I know you have been right along.

And that's the reason you've been connecting yourself with your head.

Right.

It's now time, I think, to rethink what best serves the president.

And also, what best serves you in the all-out competition.

Right.

And we have to recognize that you are not going to escape the thing.

No way.

And the far better that you should be,

prosecuted on information from the U.S. attorney based on your conversation with the U.S. attorney than on an indictment by a grand jury of 15 blacks and 3 whites after this kind of investigation?

We're right on the door of the White House.

We're trying to protect you.

If the grand jury goes this way, you've been dragged in by the haters.

If you go down first thing Monday morning or yesterday and talk to the U.S. attorney and say, okay, I want to make a statement, then two things happen.

One, you get credit for coming forward.

Two, you serve the president's interest.

And I'm here on behalf of the president.

Well, I have three.

You have to think about it after we discuss this in the office.

Yeah, the Earl Silver instead of when he was in jail.

And I'm here at the president's request to ask you to do that.

He has reviewed the facts now.

He has no alternative, John, but to send me here and ask you to do this.

If you want to hear it personally, he...

Good.

Hang up the phone.

I'm down to see him.

I have a couple of modifications.

Number one, a minor threat, not to what you said, but in setting it up.

It would be helpful doing that if I called Mitchell and said that the president wants you to talk to him.

There's no question in his mind that you're operating in the latter.

Right.

And secondly, that if at all possible, that you come down here.

He may say.

Believe me, the idea of Rogers, as you've gone, as Bob will tell you, is not one that I don't think is potentially good.

I was hoping to get it in there.

But I know Rogers by the back of my hand.

And Rogers does not fight real, mean problems.

I will not do it.

The role of Rogers' officials will overrun it.

Mitchell will say, well, you're out of your fucking mind.

What do you do when I do what about them?

Well, he rolled his eyes and ran right into one way or the other.

You see, John, somebody has to talk to them to know it's the facts.

That's the point.

I can't vote for any of this firsthand.

A tremendous amount of what I know is secondhand, like my conversation with Paul Rudd.

But I have every reason to think the converter is in the frame of mind right now.

The hunt's going to go Monday.

Well, you can't say that.

Maybe Mitchell doesn't.

I have a higher reason to think that he's already talking.

Well, basically, it's a second crime.

Isn't that right, John?

uh... uh...

um what they have

I didn't say that.

I didn't say that, but I think it is a dependent question.

And if you are in a situation where Mitchell's not alone and walks out and says, I don't know what you guys, I've got to leave my own life.

Let's say we could, like, when I look at my watch, not because of the point, because of the tennis point.

.

You're supposed to tell me that I have a right to counsel

and so forth.

Instead of that, you just suggested that I divest myself of all my rights.

And you've asked me down here for a highly improper conversation.

You haven't even suggested I bring my attorney.

And I take it what you're doing is you're acting as the prosecutor in this case.

How do you come off doing that?

You won't do that.

I think it's more likely to say, well, God damn it.

Look, John, you know that there are people in the White House that are deeply involved in this, and you know that Colson and all of them, you may say, pressure this poor boy over here.

I think the picture will take the offensive, but you agree about it.

See, I'm not at all sure of what Mitchell may think I am.

and I'm sure he's probably been totally involved because Magruder has used that.

I don't guess that Magruder has used it.

And he might have a plan to use it.

I don't think that'll happen.

Magruder's planning to go see Mitchell Ford, and if he decides to go, if he decides to go, if he decides to talk, and he's about on the verge

He says, I know I'm going to be arrested.

Yeah.

All right.

If Mitchell comes back with a line like that, you're not serving the president well.

If you had made any kind of investigation, surely you know people in the White House are involved.

What do you say?

I say, look, John, we're past the point where we can be concerned about whether people in the White House are involved.

We're not protecting the president by hoping that things are going to go away.

The people in the White House are going to go away.

The thing is not going to go away, John.

And by your sitting up there in New York

pretending that it is, it's just making it worse.

And it's been getting steadily worse in our county for the last couple of months.

We're at the point now where we have no choice but to ask you to do this.

And we have a whole, as you can see, we have a whole series of people who have remained bummed in order not to create problems for you, who, it sounds weird, can no longer remain bummed.

They don't intend to create problems for you.

I mean, I follow the theme.

I can say that when I got into this, I discovered that there were all kinds of people sitting around here who had bits of information.

They were hanging on to them, but they didn't know where they went.

Well, and because they were afraid they would hurt John Mitchell.

And I had to put this whole thing together, and now having put it together, I don't know if you guys can see where it comes from.

It is just no escape from it.

No escape from it.

There's nobody else that can do it.

And also, let me digress a moment before we get to another indication of the problem we've got here.

I just think we're in a possible position, frankly, with regard to White House.

Yeah.

But Baker does not say, help me.

He's protective of us on that.

He's so strong.

He says that I believe in him.

Yeah.

But he has always been older than that on water.

Why does he go out on a sailboat that costs a million and a half dollars?

And what do you want to win by?

Want to win by 20 million?

No, that's part of a very good point, Scott.

They say, well, he doesn't realize at that place.

Okay, but no, he doesn't.

All right, very good point.

The question that I have there, John, and let's come back to the congressional committee, what in the name of God is...

I believe that cooperation with the committee might at least indicate no covering.

That's what I'm trying to do.

Well, and that story will come out.

All right, we're going to go through a period now where we'll take some gas.

For instance, Kilpatrick was on my radio this morning.

Just take Blaine Leach for part of something terrible.

Now, that was a tactic.

Blaine Leach put the hard line up there.

Because if he had softened it all, it would have really hurt our negotiations.

And so we're going to take some temporary gas.

But I think in the long haul, it'll come out okay.

I may be wrong on that, but I think it will.

What do you think, Ron?

Do you think it's good?

Yeah.

What is your view, John, as to how the committee then ought to, how you want to come up with your negotiations?

I'm going to be a little busy tomorrow.

I'm going to see a draft Monday.

And then I've already reserved a firehouse.

What do you want?

Call a meeting.

What do you want to do?

Well, I'm going to go to our executive session to set this up for a historic meeting.

way that we can do it for all of these, right?

And take the poison out of the relationship and so on.

They're going to say to me, well, it's been nice meeting you, and we appreciate your courtesy and orders and great.

We're now going to go off and write our own set of rules.

You understand that we can't be bound by your point of view.

And you guys in the White House are just going to have to decide whether you can live with our rules or not.

Take it or leave it, and you'll say it.

Let's then talk about procedures for a lawsuit, because I think that's where we're headed.

I'm going to gig him about the Mr. Lipschitz and talk a little bit if I can, but then I'm going to say, let's not dig around.

What can you say about Mr. Lipschitz?

Well, I think we can have quite a lot of fun with that.

In terms of double standards.

dash to guard.

If they want a test case, we'll frame a test case and serve a subpoena.

We'll either move to quash it or they can go through the contempt process.

But I think the motion to quash is the best way to go, right, and figure out how we can go and stipulate the record and do it before the federal district court.

Now, I think they'll agree to that.

I certainly have not given them any reason to be antagonistic.

That may be the one, well, take that plus out of this process.

I know we want to.

Here's what we don't want in court.

Here's what I'm getting at.

The court case will delay any appearance by any White House people.

We'll agree that we'll abide the outcome of the case.

Then, if Mitchell does get indicted, Mitchell's lawyers are going to somehow

move to stop the urban here.

That's your analysis of the urban.

That's Shapiro's analysis also, and I have respect for his abilities.

On what ground?

Well, of course, they can't get a fair trial.

What do they say?

How about Mr. Greta if you want him?

Why can't they limit their, why can't they say, not in a watergate?

We've got watergates, but let's impose everything else.

But the problem, the problem you've got here, they've got to control the other people.

Sure.

All they have to do, they've got is depress as inextricably linked to those things we've tried to set.

Well, and all they have to do is take a look at Irvin's big long resolution of scope.

The judge will take a look at that and say, geez, I can't let this go on while I have this defendant here in charge.

John, is that better than caving?

Well, we have the option of caving at any time.

You don't want to cave at all.

Let me put it this way.

Yes, I do.

Let me put it this way.

Quiet, Candace.

Mitchell.

And then if we can, I don't think that's very good.

I think it's a hell of a lot better for us to be forthcoming before he's done.

I don't know what that proposition is for you to consider.

You ask me, do I want to cave now?

My feeling about this whole thing is that we ought to be looking at every nook and cranny for every device that there is to be forthcoming.

And this is a place where we can do it.

And my sense of this whole case is that our best defense is that Edward Ferdinand always wanted this to happen.

And that we weren't being cute about this at all.

Right.

Let's come to this.

Right.

See our guys up there in the dock and they look like convicted criminals and it's too bad for the White House.

Thank you.

You're getting to a level of who hired Segretti, and I think I've got to get out front on that before we go up there.

Well, I think Chapin gets out front on that.

No, sir.

Because I think you should make a statement.

How does that come along with Henry's thing?

What do you think, Kenneth?

Can I digress a moment to Segretti?

I would like to get that son of a bitch out of the way, but what would you do?

What would you do?

Give the Mitchell thing presence.

What about that?

And if someone, let's say someone, let's say they go into that and start breaking and get into, you get into a big bomb and they end up with a water game, it seems to me that's the best possible time, place, and atmosphere for my statement to come out.

The timing being that obviously I could go out in public and say this.

I've been sitting here wanting to tell my story, waiting for the Senate committee to get off and to ask me.

And nothing's happening here.

And I couldn't go on unilaterally and do this while the process was running to a grand degree.

But now they've come to their conclusions.

And the people have argued about it now.

Let's get the rest of this story covered, too, because the rest of it doesn't involve criminal stuff.

Except that you've got a criminal act.

That's a problem.

That's it.

You've got a kid who's taken a criminal act.

uh...

You can come out then in response to that and say, well, now they've announced they're not going to have their meeting until May.

I don't want to hear waiting.

I can't wait any longer.

Here's my statement.

I didn't have a grand jury.

I wouldn't up the skidding for a grand jury and so forth.

That makes it look like it was a grand jury.

It also gets it all into it.

I don't feel comfortable with it, really, into the grand jury at all, because it sounds like, well, this is all coming out of the English, and I'm going to make a statement.

What's your reason?

How do we do it related to the committee when the committee is not going to hear us?

I want an early hearing.

I want them to be able to get out and say that Alderman at all has heard very early hearings.

As soon as we get something.

Well, it's like I said, as soon as they kiss me off and publish the rules.

Well, it doesn't have to get out.

I can get out on my statement and say that.

That he's trying to work things out.

I have a commitment to Irvin and Baker that I won't discuss these negotiations until they're over.

And unless I'm a poem sky high, I shouldn't do that.

Well, we'll just take a guess.

Coming back to the

I think John's scenario bothers better.

I'd like to separate the two cases, and I'd get the God damn sure anything out.

What does he mean by that?

In other words, the urban committee says, you feel that it's not time to, that's too long.

You could put out a statement which says, I had nothing to do with Watergate.

I think in this instance, I would say, but second, I want to say, what we did, I had this to do with it.

I wouldn't worry about the fact that they can come back and say, well, what did you do about this or that at this point?

I just think it's making a forthcoming statement that can be sent to everybody.

That'll buy us some time.

It'll buy us some time right now.

And if you do it under the umbrella of

This will come later.

In fact, it ain't going to come.

I'll tell you this, it could go quite fast.

If Mitchell today was reading this, and if he and O'Brien or one of his lawyers went over to C-Cellar in Sanford and made a statement, would he put it out?

He could.

Again, I'm getting this cleared up.

C-Cellar could file an information as early as Monday or Tuesday.

He wouldn't have to in that case if he ran through it.

We don't even know yet what we're going to do.

Does it really matter?

Once you're possessed of this information.

Yeah.

I'm speaking of what I've got.

I don't know what I agree with.

I think whether Mitchell, if you're bargaining with Mitchell, and Mitchell's going to say, well, I don't know whether Jeff, how do you know if Jeff is going to do that?

I don't.

But it doesn't matter.

But they've got other information.

Yeah.

How do you know that, John?

We've got some sources inside the U.S. attorney process.

I don't know how good they are, John.

I'm sure you are.

But everything that I've been hearing... Do you think John's are bad sources?

Is that the problem?

I'm trying to give him a little bit of a shift.

We don't know what our sources are.

Our sources are... Dean and his lawyers...

I mean, can I spend a minute?

That's the thing that I wanted to know.

I knew about the New York grand jury.

What in essence is that?

It's a runaway grand jury.

It started out as an SEC action against PESCO for violence and security attacks.

They then bumped into this $200,000 donation to the campaign.

They have been on that.

since, and they've had Stans up and they've had Mitchell in, and they're working on the question of whether or not BESCO procured an appointment with the Attorney General of the United States in consideration of a $200,000 campaign.

And Harry's there trying to do a violation of Section 201.

Now, they have a witness who was sitting in the room with BESCO and Stan,

Stan, how does a guy get to be a big contributor around here?

Stan said, well, the word big means $200,000.

And Vesco said, cash or check?

And Marty said, either one.

And he said, I'm not sure.

I don't know before or after.

I just don't know.

But in any event, he said, well, how does one work out quid pro quo?

And Marty said, well, what's your problem?

And he said, well, I'm afraid the Justice Department is after me on an SEC violation.

And Maury said, in effect, I don't know what I can do about that.

Let's see.

Vesco then got a phone call, allegedly, from John Mitchell.

Now, that's enough to indict him.

Because Vesco, as a result of the phone call, got appointed to the defense bill, right?

All right.

Why don't you find out a little about the other thing?

There's a third or fourth or fifth area in here which has the vice president absolutely scared shitless.

There's a grand jury in Baltimore going on a... That isn't about us, Michael.

Well, she tries to get us in order to jar us into being worried about him.

But where it boils down to...

Because he says if that thing runs its course, he will be removed.

I don't know how funny this is, except that it relates to a guy named Frederick Mulligan.

The regional finance chairman.

Frederick Mulligan.

With a committee to reelect.

Who isn't Jewish.

No.

Who is an old crony of Aggies.

Go ahead.

In order to scare us and be worried about his case, his client, the client came to Mitchell's office with a bag of cash, which he turned over to Mitchell, and which was allegedly involved in his receiving of the contract.

And Mitchell took it.

Shapiro told us about this.

I can't believe that.

I can't believe that John Mench would take money in his goddamn office.

A candidate never takes money for Christ's sake.

You know, you take this Howard Hughes thing, you know, that they try to get.

I mean, the beauty of having a guy like Peter here on the system.

You know, they try to lie to him.

Oh, they give the money to me.

And Peter's got to say, not only do we have to give it to him, we can't even talk to him.

Thank God.

Well, it's a different matter.

He's not guilty then.

Well, it's Attorney General.

Well, that's what they tell me.

I don't know.

What's the Vice President?

What's the Vice President's problem?

There's a guy named...

All right.

This guy was the vice president's name on all financial stuff when he was governor.

And in Maryland, there's a campaign contribution law that prohibits contributions in excess of $2,500.

Therefore, everybody deals in what people are walking around with, which is cash.

or greatly in excess of $25,000 to comply with the contract.

I bet you Matthias got some.

And he contends that there is no problem legally in this, that there is a money and OPR problem because there were countless meetings at which as governor or county executive, they would review lists

and say, we've got this contract with a cross-state bridge, and it's going to, who's this, or how much support have they given the score?

They've got it now, go get them for a million bucks.

Get this under their head, and that kind of stuff.

Governors, governors, go out.

This fellow named Wolfe signed these meetings and wrote these comments down for payment.

Well, I agree with his assessment.

Right.

Uh, the U.S. Attorney said, uh, we've got to do a good job here or something.

Uh, you'd better, uh, come in.

Wolf ran to his lawyer and handed him all these notes that have all sorts of electrical rotations and spiral accidents.

Why?

And his lawyer, uh, got a little shook and called George White, President.

Actually, his buddy and lawyer said, I think he's got a problem.

And I went to this last week.

And of course, I look like a white man.

Thank God I was never elected governor.

You know, the governor's drama.

This is so common.

That's what every governor in Illinois looks like.

I can't tell you about Cato.

Cato?

Cato had the whole Cato thing on his desk.

He pulled out and said, no, it's the same problem.

Go ahead.

Well, so this...

And as a result of that, all I did

And what are you?

I always say, look, we can't do a thing here.

You might talk to Colson or somebody like that on the outside.

That's what I do.

And I talk to John before I get to the studio.

And then Colson.

And I call Colson and say, you'll be hearing from George White on some problems.

And they want to talk to you about it.

We can't watch the case.

I don't think they're going to.

I don't think they'll do it.

They're going to get back.

All right.

Maryland politics is mysterious.

But I just can't imagine my fellow brother getting a vice president.

Oh, there's no question.

There's nothing indelible on the vice president.

That's not what he's going to do.

He's worried about the evidence that he's going to use, which will remove the vice president.

Well, he's just going to write that through.

What the hell?

I don't care if you know it or not.

That is the major vulnerability of all of our candidates, including the gentleman in particular.

There's many questions, you know, that stinks down there.

And I'm going to get back to it.

Thank God it's the other brothers in the building in the studio.

And that's that.

And the governor, the senator, the best of all.

I wonder if you should use the 65 on this poll, whiter now, rather than parting around waiting for Bob to join.

They're not set yet.

I'd like to get whiter words.

Sure, but let's wait a little.

They could kick him off the committee right now, and we wouldn't really have done that.

I'd rather get that committee composed, get it started with its hearings, whiter's integral part of it,

Let me say this, to Wiker being what he is, he'll make a lot of headlines and all that, but he is not fortunately very smart.

I'd rather have him up there trying to do it with all of his PR techniques than a smart son of a bitch.

Well, that's a good way to work it because everybody now pretty much is against it.

Well, he makes problems with Irvin every day.

His staff leaks and he's got all kinds of problems.

He's getting marveled at.

Wanker's staff editorial.

I don't think I've told you this, but the guy came up and said, hey, Wanker's staff men are calling every secretary who ever worked

Thank you.

I know there's a question between Irvin and Weicker about this business of Weicker's staff.

Why don't you just slip that in?

That's right.

How should we deal with this situation?

What do you want us to do, Senator?

Should we take our people?

We want to cooperate, and you know they are cooperating with your staff.

On the other hand, Mr. Weicker is calling everybody his people, and we just want to know who's running the show here.

Take it right to him.

Yeah.

So why are you asking me all these questions?

You know, honey, you know, we need just as any student.

She's a girl who works at the White House now.

So honey, we need just as any student.

You know, if you're working in an architect's office and they get names and addresses and all that, that's the stuff of what she did.

She did a good job.

You might even want to talk to the girl.

So what would you call them and say that we've had this problem, Senator?

What do you want them to do to it?

The only member of the committee, I want to know that they're doing this, but our people are hurt down in Secretary's arrest, and we're wanting to walk right through what they're doing with you, and they have, but we just can't take every individual member of the Senate who's been conducted on the investigation out.

We'll do whatever you say.

So that when

You can say it.

You can say, Senator, now, we're not going to turn this down unless you tell us to.

And we just want you to know that if you want me to go ahead, we will arrange for them to do it.

But we want you to, you know what I mean.

Use the specific call.

Yeah.

Good to hear your call.

Okay, one.

Just to get a backup position.

You want to talk to the recruiter?

I agree.

Can you tell the recruiter not yet?

The sentence is coming in.

You want to go in and grant it.

Encourage yourself and tell the solicitor.

I agree with that.

Bob, you don't agree with that?

I do.

Yeah.

say that the evidence is not Jeff.

I just simply say that just other people wouldn't have thought it was Jeff, although he may blow.

I can say that I have come to the conclusion that it is both John and Jeff who are on it.

But no, I meant, I was going to say that we're not telling you John is because Jeff is going to crash.

Or that Dean is one of the grand jurors.

Past that point, they've got the case made.

That's right.

You'll say, well, I think they're bluffing here.

What do you say?

It's a question of bluffing.

Nobody's made any representations to us at all.

Nobody's trying to bluff us.

It's just a question of putting together all the facts.

And any time someone in the U.S. Attorney's Office goes through the process that I've gone through, they'll have all the facts.

And then you don't get it all from any one person.

So it's some from this one and some from that one.

It's a typical, it's a case of a race crime.

How does these, incidentally, what is the liability of a hunt?

I'm thinking of the payoff thing.

In this business, somebody, Dean, Dean, you know, Dean Hatton, just told me about the problem where hunts a warrior with a head gun.

This was a few weeks ago.

Needed $60,000 or $40,000 or something like that.

He remembered and asked me about it.

I said, I don't know where you can get it.

I said, I don't know.

I'm trying to get it, but I didn't know where.

And then he left it up with Mitchell, and Mitchell then said it was taken care of.

I'm correct.

Did he talk to you about that?

He talked to me about it.

I said, John, I wouldn't have it.

They just don't report it yet.

I saw him later in the day.

I saw Mitchell later in the day.

I asked him.

I came around to the meeting.

And he just said, take care of it.

Mitchell raised the property care.

He said, if I were in charge of this now, what I would do is I'd get a watered bus, and I'd put the president in the wheel, and I'd turn everybody we got around here in it, and I'd drive them to the Senate, and I'd have the president open the door, and I'd say, you all get out and tell them everything you know, and I'll be back to pick you up when you're through.

He said, we're all out now.

There's nothing we can do about it.

He said, LaRue also said, no, I can't figure out how I got into this to begin with.

But it seems to me all of us have been drawn in here and trying to cover up for John.

For Mitchell?

Yeah.

Which is exactly what's happened.

LaRue said that?

Yes.

Right.

And if LaRue is called, LaRue is going to tell him to go.

His instruction would be the rule that I was hoping to get.

The way Dean talked, I wasn't even thinking about the message.

I don't think Guru cares.

I think Guru's thinking that the jig is up.

A bit of incidental intelligence.

A paragraph yesterday with regard to Marty, just a small one.

I don't think he needs to work for it.

I've heard a cover story, which he said in the New York Times.

He said it all back in the White House.

That's all I have.

I just don't know any other thing.

But he could live in the White House.

Bear in mind, Shapiro was giving me this in the whole...

Let me say, I don't think that Martin or LaRue or Emmanuel or LaRue or anybody want to hurt the president.

I'm sure there's no other way.

Colson, how about Colson?

He, of course, has to do everything he can not to hurt the president.

Yeah.

the goddamn office.

But also, it happens to be true.

They don't have that.

That doesn't apply.

And they could, I think, rationalize to themselves that burning or getting anybody else could be good for the president rather than bad.

In other words, there is an ultimate being.

Certainly, Colson.

Colson would be the top of that list.

Colson first, then Alderman, then Dean.

You see, I think Amartya...

... ... ... ... ...

I'm sorry.

They could cut his time.

... ... ... ... ... ... ...

He may have said, well, we've got to take care of these people.

Well, I understand that.

But he's never said, look, you're going to get a pardon for these people when this is over.

He's never given such a mind as around here.

He hasn't done that today.

But Dean hasn't.

Well, that's the question.

So has Dean ever raised it?

In fact, Dean told me.

I said, Ron, I said that.

Where's all of you?

Thank you.

What the hell do you think?

Do you think being, I mean, do you think that, you know, the party is, you know, sitting there asking the jail for four years and their family's not taken care of?

That's the point.

Now, where do you have to get the money for that?

That's the reason this whole thing falls.

I mean, it's that, that I, that astonishes me that I was making an arresting problem.

Probably there's no way to get the money.

Who was it?

Tom.

I appreciate the work you're doing.

Good old Tom.

There's a very good money.

Apparently he's doing this.

I don't know that he is.

The word never came up.

I do.

I do it for the purpose of helping the poor bastards through the trial.

But you can't ask for that, John.

You can't.

Where could you?

I guess you could.

Attorney's fee?

Could you get a support program for these people for four years?

I have no idea.

Well, they've supported other people.

Yeah.

Huh?

I say, yeah.

All right.

One final thing.

You don't think we have to fight these days?

Well, I'm not so sure.

I'd be inclined

My recommendation is that you recognize that

that there's a go-no-go decision that has to be made right away.

Because here's your situation.

Looking again at the big picture, you now are possessed of a body of fact.

And you can't just sit here.

You've got to act on it.

You've got to make some decisions.

And the dean makes one of the decisions that you have to make.

And you make a decision.

Bulleted.

You're bulleted.

You've got to dispose of it one way or the other.

There may be, and I'm, I'm, yeah.

What's the, uh, that, uh, thing with, uh, uh, Hague, uh, what kind of guy now?

I'll be good.

I'll tell you, I am still heavily persuaded that we have facts

Well, this will be done because there's another reason, too.

It isn't life.

Dean is not life.

That's right.

and tried to do what he could to pick up the goddamn piece of this.

Everybody else around here knew it had to be done.

Let's face it, I'm not blaming anybody else.

That was his job.

I have great trouble in commenting to you that you've been on in the light of the known involvement that he had in Africa.

Right.

What?

That's the question.

That's number one.

Number two, there's nothing new about that.

As I develop in this thing, I'd like you to read this.

There were eight or ten people around here who knew about this, knew what was going on.

God knew.

All kinds of people knew.

Well, I knew it.

I knew it.

And it was not a question of whether I knew it or not.

I didn't know it.

The point is that if

I don't think Dean's role in the aftermath, at least on the facts that I know about, achieves the level of wrongdoing that requires a determination.

and this other thing.

I think you made a very powerful point to me that the party would be pragmatic and say, well, Craig, thank you, and so forth.

In other words, special law is different.

Give them an order here, and maybe they won't come after the main court.

So I'll be on the other hand.

It is what it is now.

Right.

More than that, we've made Dean a vocal point in the very process.

Right.

He will become a focal point in the early trial.

Will happen.

Yes.

Except if it goes on.

If you just let him go through with it.

He'll be a focal point.

He'll be a D prop.

With less protection.

That's right.

And with less incentives.

Well, the point that I think.

Dean.

He did with all property.

Yeah.

In terms of the higher good.

Dean.

You've got to have a talk with Dean.

I feel that I should not talk to him.

I have talked to him.

But I mean about voting.

I have something.

What's he say about voting?

He says it was push-up.

No.

He says he knew, he had to know that people were trying to bring that result back.

He said, you know, the way I got into this was I was going to meet in the campaign headquarters, and we'd get through the meeting, and Mitchell and LaRue would say to me,

And Mitchell's stock answer was to turn to John Dean.

What are you going to do?

I got to be a kind of a water carrier.

I'd come back from those meetings and I'd come in to see Bob or me or somebody else and say, well, Mitchell's got this big problem.

And then they'd say to me, well, I don't know what I'll do.

When he came in to see Bob, what would he say was the problem?

He'd say, these guys, I'm getting jittery and says that he's got to have $1,000 and Mitchell's terribly worried about him.

And...

Uh, it was never expressed, but it was certainly understood.

Okay, on the question of Modi, then, no, I just thought it was a conversation, but with respect to you, that Modi was never discussed.

Never discussed with me in those terms.

Right.

The Modi was the health defendants who were, by golly, would work for the campaign committee.

It never really got that far, because, uh, at least my, my conversation with John was, well, you know, that's, that's interesting.

I just don't know what to do for him.

Yeah, they may have offered a few options.

The one thing where it did go further, if you want to argue that, was in the sense that the $350 million was not our money.

This was not requested by the roof.

Of course, the problem was getting them to take it back.

They wouldn't take it.

They didn't know how to take it back.

Uh, but he didn't, he, he was in 1971, right?

He was acting out for it now because he's presently with his personal receipt, uh, through a grand jury number of $328,000 in cash delivered to him at night.

It was a hard-fought work for Sean.

Two witnesses to that transaction were Sean and Leroy.

Leroy took it.

And Sean just testified that that's what happened.

Well, Leroy's got a problem.

What did he do with it?

At that point, it seemed to come to him.

Thank you.

I'm not sure either, but I assume that if one ran out to pay these people, that's my assumption.

A dean says that.

He says we have only two problems.

One is the fact that we made a referral to Comcom.

He said that could be explained.

And that's no major problem.

The other is that you have $50,000.

All right.

Mitchell.

I think he's going to come down and do it today.

I think Bob, I think, too, has to go out and call him now and ask him if he can come down.

I don't know if he's going to come down.

Well, I know it may be gone.

The point that I make is this.

If you stop to play golf, let's say we have a...

Well, I got a dinner tonight.

I've got that to John.

I need this to be done.

It's very important for the president to consider this as the highest urgency to be aware of these developments.

That's not the reason.

Oh, is it?

It's something that just can't be postponed.

It can't be postponed.

We come across harder than prior examples.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

My point is that as the three of us talk here, I realize that, frankly, Mitchell's case is guilt.

Dean's case is the question.

I do not consider that guilt.

That's all there is to that.

Because if that's the case, then how is it that they have staff guilt?

That's it.

He's guilty of really no more except in degree.

That's right.

And then others.

And frankly, that I have been since a week ago, two weeks ago.

See, that kind of knowledge that we had was not actually knowledge like the kind of knowledge that I put together last night.

I haven't known really what's been bothering me this week.

But what's been bothering me is that with knowledge, we're still not doing it.

That's right.

That's exactly right.

The law and order.

God damn it, that's the way I am.

You know, it is painful to do anything.

I don't think it really matters.

This comes under this whole heading of having knowledge and having to hang on.

My point is that I think it's better to recruit before you.

So, no, I think it doesn't matter.

It doesn't seem to be good today.

I think we ought to make a similar call to recruit.

I think we should do it before you see me.

Or you'll feel uncomfortable about it.

As I say, I think it's almost immaterial as to which I see first.

It's the fact of doing it rather than any particular sequence.

I think in my view, in my view, John, you can't wait to act.

You should see what you're going to do.

I wouldn't quite say it that way.

I'll say, you know what I've been doing here the last three weeks?

I haven't been ranging over this whole subject matter, crime.

Can you tell him as you talk to him that what he says is a turning point?

I'll simply say that he did an investigation which determined whether or not the White House was involved.

My response to it was greater than that.

It was deranged from the whole thing.

It was trying to bring to the president a new information that he actually had it.

And he has directed me to immediately contact you.

It's a really accepted point of view in all of this.

People should not disclose what they know because it somehow serves the president.

Apparently, it's terrible for all of us.

or otherwise of what the president wanted you to do.

I think it's my job to impart to you what is actually the case.

I would also quote, I put a couple of verse notes,

Also, I just put that in so that he knows

that I have a personal affection.

That's the way the so-called clemency has got to be handled.

So, John, I understand you do the same thing with Mitchell.

Oh, Mitchell?

Well, you could say that Mitchell, I think you've got to say, you've got to say that this is the kind of decision that's made and covered and voted on May 8th and December 18th put together.

And that he just can't bring himself to talk to you about it.

Thank you.

a stock of innocent people are being spared in this thing, he will understand.

Once you are possessed of a reasonable body of knowledge, you have an obligation to do something.

Rather than simply to turn it over to the U.S. Attorney, the thing that you are doing

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

or call in the attorney general, which I think is what I think is my relationship with this, because I cannot have it.

Of course, he's going to ask, well, now, John, what problems do you really have, except you're the same?

I don't have any.

uh... uh... uh... uh...

Well, the eighth thing, I wouldn't say it.

The president has stood frankly, John, on the executive privilege thing.

It isn't my purpose to prove to your satisfaction or that you're going to be indicted.

But it's my purpose to say that the president has a position.

I believe you should come here.

What are you going to suggest to him?

Well, if he asks me, what do you want me to do?

I'm going to say, if you would do what I ask you, what I would suggest, you would pick up the phone, and you would allow me to pick it up, call her or someone, and make an appointment today, go over, and talk with the U.S. Attorney about it.

Well, you're asking me in effect to go down under a guilty plea.

And I would say, look, you're the only one who knows.

You're the basic one in my mind.

You're the guilty one.

You have to decide whether there's a rule with what you know and the order of action of the jury with which you might pass or punish.

I can't make that judgment for you.

I don't have any right to make it for you.

All I'm saying is if you're looking at this thing from the standpoint of the President, today is probably the last day that you can take that action.

If you're ever going to take it, do the President take it.

Do you realize, John, that...

I think you and I can approach this.

I'd go further and say the president has said that the chips fall where they may.

We're not going to cover for anybody.

I think you have to say that.

That's right.

Don't you agree about it?

That isn't it?

Thank you.

Bob, do you think there's something to be said for having John wait to talk about his career?

I think John's in a stronger position if he's confident.

I'll tell you, it is not what Mitchell says that matters today.

It is the fact that you have acted on the issue today.

all my rights, I'm going to make them fight every inch of dirt and so on and so forth.

Okay.

That's all right.

But at least you, having accumulated all this knowledge this week, have pride to get this thing out so that sometime two months from now, three months from now, a year from now when there's an accounting,

Uh, unfortunately, no, it's serious.

Uh, in a very different sense.

That's what December 18th is about.

We're going to prick the goddamn boil and take the heat.

That's what we're doing here.

We're going to prick this boil and take the heat.

I, I always say, um, take the heat.

The history of this thing has to be, though, that you did not talk this under the rug, correct, yesterday or today, and hope it would go away.

Now, in a given scenario, I'd rather go out and tell people that I've done this.

I don't know.

It depends on how long it turns out.

If you just not go to the U.S. attorney, if the recruiter decides to stay clamped up, right,

Let's suppose they still indict.

If you don't want them to indict, then have to say that on Saturday the 14th of April.

But you see, the problem there is that if you were to go out on this kind of hearsay and say, we know who did it, and you prejudice their rights,

When somebody comes to...

I don't have a lot of it.

I agree with that.

But I have an accumulation

uh... uh... uh... uh... uh...

Let's see what these guys do.

But I think maybe like tomorrow, I don't see silver.

I agree.

I think the record he made would be a problem.

All the information we have

I don't want to hear the record.

Thank you.

I think Bob should sit in.

No, I think so.

I think that gives you the witness.

And also, make sure he feels he's got a friend there.

And he knows that you're not just doing this on your own.

Bob says we've talked it all over.

Chair.

Well.

I guess you got to.

You don't want to be noticed at all.

No, it's so much.

Just stand up.

It doesn't mean anything.

The point is, you're standing up.

Then it will be no storming.

You're failing to stand up.

It will be one storming.

It's reporting.

I got stunned once that way.

And incidentally, Bob, don't you think I should speak again very briefly?

Yes, sir.

It'll be a long show.

Thank you very much.

Delighted.

Not to kiss their ass at all.

Do you agree, John?

I don't know.

He arrives for coffee and dessert.

Coffee and dessert and the entertainment.

Coffee and dessert and introduce the new officers and all that sort of thing.

Then they have the entertainment.

I, at the end, get up and thank them.

Very pleasantly delightful work.

I appreciate the gift, and I will try to do it well.

I've got no comments about relations with the press and all that sort of thing.

That's my present intention.

Would you agree, or do you want me to guess a little about it?

We'd like to go along with you, fellas.

Talk about Watergate.

We want to run for the exits.

General, would you like to hear a little bit about what I've been doing the last couple of days?

I would be inclined to crank a little substance into it on the subject of legislative executive relations and the fact that the House Correspondents

The fact that there really isn't a compensation limit that requires a responsible treatment that some White House correspondents have given the senators and everything like that, or maybe not even a compromise.

Just say that we all have a stewardship here.

We're all custodians of an obligation to the American people to make clear the true essence of that relationship.

So I'm sorry to go on that line.

Brian, this is all that you're thinking about.

I gather we do care about our relations.

They've got a damn important function.

I want them to do their job.

I respect their rights to criticize and so forth.

The essence of the executive, not the executive as a person, but the executive as an institution.

the American people do not have as clear an understanding and impression of the American presidency as they ought to have.

And it's a continuing task of the White House correspondent to try and improve that understanding.

And the only way the system is going to work is if people have that in their blood, something like that, rather than just a nice and serious.

Oh, yeah, I got to say something.

Well, that's why I'm going.

Their tendency is to report the color of your shoes and how many strokes in your ballgame and that kind of stuff, rather than to elucidate the institution.

We've been through a story here.

Never the White House correspondent's traveled further

and we have we've covered an election campaign and we had to add an election campaign and the aftermath of that election i'll say that next year

What the presidency is about, what we're trying to accomplish.

Not allow that to be obscured.

One last thing.

You have to rush.

Yeah.

Okay.

Bob in there.

Also, they're going to send in the bomb bomb.

How are you?

We had yesterday.

Damn, I'll tell you, I read the papers and find out that I had meetings that I don't even remember.

Greatly done, though.

Actually, I...

Yeah.

I don't know.

I think that we don't have a standard situation, but I think we have a service that's been involved.

It isn't strict.

It isn't given any one day or any one week.

Did you put a loss?

Yes, sir.

That's very worrisome.

... ... ... ...

As long as they negotiate with us, we can be forced to stay in.

The negotiation is a form of blackmail.

And also, we know that in Cambodia, there's a lot of violence in South Vietnam.

There's a lot of terrible material.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Okay.

Vietnam.

situations people are very confident and the areas controlled by the gbm like that pieces return the commerce is all the roads are open they've looked at incorporating

... ... ... ... ...

Thank you.

That's what we've got to say all the time.

If we could enforce it brutally, I know that we could every two weeks.

I mean, I'm saying something we can't do.

But if we had enough authority to launch it,

Thank you.

.

I thought I'd made it back.

There you go.

the other point is

... ... ... ... ...

Thank you.

See, I'm trying to think of a reaction.

I can't judge it.

And they'll say...

I don't care what happens.

Massive, we have massive credibility in the country in the field of foreign policy.

Thank you.

That's the better way to do it because Richardson is going to get the pressure from below.

Right.

Nothing.

See, that'll help a little.

But otherwise, we'll say 18 months from now, they'll all go down the drain.

All this peace, peace, peace that we have now will be Jesus Christ who fought his war for nothing.

See, again, it's a prison.

18 months from now, it happens from a situation of peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace, peace.

Thank you.

... ... ... ...

let them screw this agreement after what we went through so long.

Thank God we have got the prisoners back.

Thank God that's out of our area now.

Thank God they're back here.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Burroughs Brothers.

Henry Burroughs Brothers.

... ... ... ... ... ...

.

Then we would not be able to start it up until they all fully replied.

That's still been going on.

All the person.

Everybody else.

The fact you really want.

They think they can both get the aid and do it.

I want to be sure to get, be sure to do, stir up the people.

Apparently, that wasn't necessary.

It's already done.

I don't know how to do it.

... ... ...

... ... ... ...

Right.

Fair enough.

Second point, regard to Swain.

You see, Kenner will take time to get approved, but I think his name gets that nomination in when he has life immediately.

You don't have to make an FBI check on all that crap on him.

He's probably had it, like, cleared everything anyway.

Kenner, they have to check him.

All right, call Kenner and see if he'll do it.

If he won't, fire him.

I mean, just, we need this to go through.

All right, fire road to... Fire road to Thailand.

Fire road to Thailand.

And how about sending Kerns to Pakistan?

All right.

Do make those calls today.

All right, ask Kerns if he'll go to Pakistan.

It's a terribly important assignment.

Can Bob make those calls?

Except that Josh is involved in such a mess that I'm calling.

I'll be glad to do it.

Send the name into the arm of my destiny.

Fire was going to blow the fire.

Okay.

The way we can do it is we can just send...

The board has brought you to our office.

Yeah.

On Monday, saying, I have decided to make the following appointment.

Okay.

I don't know if you have it.

They object to viruses, really.

I just don't like viruses.

I barely know the man except that everyone doesn't like it because he drinks it.

Is he that bad at it?

No.

He goes, I like it.

Kendrick?

You know Kendrick?

Yeah, you call him.

Fair enough.

Now, as a little carrot to the goddamn

The State Department's doing a foreign service here in Moscow.

We don't get a ship that goes to Moscow and say, you should let Roger know, or who would you like to know?

Just call for her and say, look, the president wants your recommendation, wants your recommendation of the best career man to go to Moscow on February 8th.

We want it best.

Fair enough?

And you can inform Porter that you can call her.

or made a decision on these other three, and they're involved in a personal commitment to these things, just a personal commitment.

I have a personal commitment to my road, too, and I got one.

But I'm generally impressed with the personal commitment, the personal commitment.

So I think that's a lot of it.

Well, Al, we're glad to have you back.

It was a good trip.

I guess you made the front page of the New York Times.

That's right.

Henry, are you going to go to the thing tonight?

Yes.

I'm not going to say much.

I don't think I should.

I mean, I could sit there through an hour of entertainment.

No, but I'd be very confident.

Oh, yes.

And these are going to work.

They're all going to be watching.

Do you want to stay here for a minute, Henry?

Now?

Oh, I didn't want to hold you up.

Maybe you want to sit down.

Maybe you need to come back here later.

I'd love to go there.

which is 3,000 samples, 3,000 samples taken over the .

Now the reason it's down, even the 60s, it was 65, it was as high as 68, but that was the first part, that was just a flick.

The reason it's down, it's down, it's not what it is.

Only 5% of the people in England, 5% of the people in England, they don't want to do it.

But it's the economy to see the quite best prices.

And that's inevitable.

You know, it takes heat in England at the present time.

I mean, he and the president don't accept his opposition as soon as there's the present time he would in an election.

So we're going to have to look at that in place.

I just get the feeling that the vote is where they...

It doesn't mean so much in English.

Because they're probably out of office almost all the time.

They're probably in office almost all the time.

We're still here, but do you want that?

We're still here.

All right.

Thank you.

The first time she popped off, I was in the way.

Did you read it?

Why do you think John said it?

Why do you think?

Well, I don't think John told that to John.

What about you?

What do you want to ask John?

I just spent with us on the big issues.

Yeah, but I think, you know, he passed it to me.

And he never really thought I would go back on it.

.

Thank you.

I haven't had knowledge to this point.

I've had knowledge about the White House staff, and I believe it has proved to be correct up to this point.

It doesn't prove to be correct.

It has not been my responsibility.

It's been Mitchell's to do the committee.

Now, however, I've gone further.

I've said, I wonder what it was about the committee that was destroyed.

The chief executive of this country cannot sit on such knowledge.

Thank you.

But some of the economic issues, I think, can be competitive.

As you know, I'm in favor of voting on the audit, and that would be a good solution.

Great, and also, you were opposed to having them be the focal point of evidence.

You're right.

I think, and also, all of it is an honest fact.

I know it.

I don't think any electrical comments or government things have to do with regards to

and so forth and so on and so on, but that's all we can do.

We can't tell.

I don't know about what happens after, but my view is that Alderman should, I'm going to show you my view, that we should hold on to him if he's human enough.

If he cannot be held on to, then he should resign ahead of the group.

I don't know.

You'll survive.

I feel very strong.

No, no, no, no, no.

What I meant is, are there appearances before the conference or not?

Is it going to come out?

That's our problem.

But if it's going to come out, that's the question, right?

whether it's possible to take some brutal measures.

There's no more brutal measures, I'm afraid.

John mentioned just brutal.

It's likely to work this way.

I'm curious, but then I'm just telling you this.

I don't think the country .

Let me say this.

You probably forgot to show .

.

The president must, however, maintain his authority, must deal

.

Okay.

You charge them with a felony.

They leave our community.

You've got to suspend it.

That's all this crap is.

I made that case.

I got an award last night from the federal city.

Hold on.

Don't keep me out of it.

You know what they said?

So we're very sorry to have to go to that for all.

The chief investigator in this case, in a case like this, has to have gotten his son to come home.

I found it interesting.

Bob Littman was basically a kennel member of these guys.

I said, look, to me, this is an issue of civil liberties.

Liberties always have to apply to people who you think are not good.

The good guys always get a lot of protection anyway.

So I would ask you that the people who did the bugging, I said, that's why they need protection.

That's why you protect hunters.

I said, that's what the constitutional protections are there for.

That's what McCartney is for.

And I made use of it.

I said, look, what if they get three years for torturing themselves with respect to trees?

Hunts have never done anything before, never will do anything again.

No threat to society against 20 to 40 years for bugging.

I think it's the right decision, Mr. President.

Well, we're trying to do that.

Hold on.

I think you have to move on.

I think it's a lot of blood.

Sure.

All right, Mr. President.

I am not worried about it.

I am not worried about it because it takes me personally.

I mean, it takes me personally.

I'm not referring to polling.

I'm not going to share about that.

I'm not referring to the tax expression.

Oh, okay.

rather than talk about

everybody when they say

The press always says we would pay more attention to them, and yet I go over there and I make pretty interesting comments about black Americans, about its priority, and about, you know, definitely.

But it isn't that.

They don't care about black Americans.

It's not news.

You're not going to get much on Europe.

Talk about it.

But I thought it was a bit better.

There's nothing I can say on the announcement, mostly.

What I would say on Vietnam, and I would give them a little overview, is the world has changed.

The idea that in 25 years, we have seen enormous changes in our policy, and we must deal with the world as it is.

Our new issues deal with the situation as it is.

Our new issues deal with the world as it is.

And now with Europe, we're still with Europe, but it is.

And that's why we need a new look at Europe.

Exactly.

Along those lines.

Exactly.

And having developed relations with our adversaries, it's now time to solidify relations with our friends.

But we've done it all along the way.