Conversation 430-016

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Dick, how are you?

Sit down.

Would you like a cup of coffee?

Why not?

I've been drinking coffee all day.

Oh, good.

Sit down.

Okay.

Let's just go around listening.

There's a band.

I ran up the stairs, though.

Uh, just a straight coffee, black coffee, please.

Nothing is bad if we don't survive, if we're gonna survive.

I'm sure we are.

But we have to make some tough decisions along the way.

Right.

Peterson came in this morning and gave me a memorandum from Silver to him.

this is important here that on sunday april 15 i

I received information that at a date unspecified, Ward Lady and Howard Hunt burglarized the offices of a psychiatrist.

That's correct.

Ellsberg, to obtain the psychiatrist's files at Ellsberg.

The source of the information did not know whether the file had any material in it that makes it known whether any of the information or even the facts of the burglary had been communicated to anyone associated with the prosecution.

And instead of that, I want to pray.

Go on.

Upon receipt of that, Peterson then had a notation here that he advised Maroney.

Maroney is in the Internal Security Division and requested information as to whether or not any such information like this was in the possession of the government.

Right.

On April 18th,

John L. Martin, who was in the Internal Security Commission, I guess in Moroni, U.S., under the subject of U.S. v. Ellsberg, writes to Moroni, Today I was informed by you

Today I was informed by you that an allegation has been made that the office of Daniel Ellsberg, a psychiatrist, had been burglarized by certain defendants convicted of the Watergate case.

I am familiar with all the reports, memoranda, and other investigative materials in the case of U.S. Mrs. Ellsberg, and based upon my familiarity with these materials,

information developed in this case which could have possibly emanated from such a source.

Furthermore, today, you and I called Daniel Wagner, who supervises the FBI investigation case, and he informed us that he had absolutely no knowledge of any alleged burglary or any information which could possibly have come from such a source.

I also checked with Dave Nesson, he's a prosecutor in California, and he advised that no information has come to his attention during the course of this case which could have emanated

One is a legal problem, which is clearly established by court decision, and one is a practical problem.

The legal problem on the last case being the Brady case, that if the prosecution comes into possession of information, then the prosecution will not be able to determine whether it's falsely obtained or illegally obtained.

That could in any way affect

the rights of the defendants, the prosecution has the duty to tell the judge about it, let him have an in-camera hearing to determine whether it was taped or any such information, and advise the defendant and his attorneys.

The principal matter is that with Silver's writing down all this details... Did Dane tell Silver this?

Yeah.

That's what Silver said.

Dane told Silver this?

Yeah.

How does Dean know about this?

He doesn't know anything about this.

He knows?

Yeah.

Then why does Dean know Silver today?

Oh, I didn't mention Dean's name, sir.

Peter said Dean had a conversation with Silver this morning.

No, no.

Peter said he had a conversation with Dean.

Oh, I see.

But why did you say Dean and Silver this morning?

I didn't, sir.

When I did, I made a mistake.

But then I guess, I don't know if you mentioned Dean.

No, sir, I didn't.

I said I had a meeting with Peter's

in the middle of the morning.

Let me tell you the question, the problem.

Peterson may have told you, and I want to see you alone, because I do trust Peterson.

I think I do, but I'm not sure.

Do you?

Yeah, I'm just fine.

Okay.

We're going to do a little interview.

Thank you.

national security matters, if they are determined to be done.

National security matters, unless crime is involved.

Now, what happened on this was that, as Peterson told you, all of our dear, hearted friends, had refused to investigate on this.

For example, the father-in-law, Marks,

I thought it was an excellent group.

Now, under the circumstances, with all the leaks and everything else, the investigation was undertaken.

The White House, under proper direction, I do, and I'm aware of this,

He said, what the hell?

I mean, whether Ellsberg was, you know, lying, leaking, or what the hell he was doing, that's what you call a plumber operation.

Without any knowledge of anybody, these crazy fools went out of there.

They got nothing.

It was a dry hole.

And what happened there is how I heard that, uh,

Dean was aware of that, because Dean was the one that implemented the movement, or, when I say implemented, carried it out.

I asked, Peterson asked me, when I told him about this, you know, I'm not going to pick, you know, I'm not going to be the instructor when it comes to justice here.

Believe me, never.

And I said, I mean, I said, that's the fact.

And I said, he said, was there any communication or prosecution?

I said, absolutely nothing.

from my information, because they've got nothing.

But, I said, the fact is, there was a verbalization of the psychiatrist's office, which produced apparently nothing that was relevant to the case.

And that was the fact.

I don't have any questions about how we do it.

I think there's only one thing we can do.

If we don't do it, this is going to be out in the street tomorrow, two days from now, and I'm leaving.

and not doing what the law clearly dictates that we have to do.

We can't have another cover-up.

I don't want to cover up.

You know that.

Now we have two alternatives.

Both of which are the same.

Number one is that we inform Nissen, the prosecutor, and incidentally at this point Silver would have to take the position that he cannot reveal the source of his information

I think that we would have to communicate to the judge that from a source that we cannot reveal, it has come to the attention of the government that the office of the psychiatrist of Ellsberg was burglarized.

not have definitive factual information on that, you should have an in-camera hearing to determine the fact as to whether there was any taint in Ellsberg's trial.

Exactly.

And let Ellsberg and his attorneys be advised of this.

That's alternative number one, and the one I recommend.

Alternative number two would be to instruct Nissen to dismiss the Ellsberg case.

You cannot dismiss cases anymore just because you want to.

The judge could ask for a reason.

at which point this would then say the reason.

That, to me, is an undesirable alternative, because I think a hearing on this would demonstrate, based on everybody in the Department of Justice, that we have no such intervention.

None of them could not possibly have prejudiced the city.

The judge could also issue an order against Ellsberg attorneys to make no reference to public

But in any event, they could be subject to contempt of court.

It seems to me, Mr. President, we've got to do this.

This afternoon, we've got to do this before we run out of this.

Can this get out in the streets?

And we don't.

What is he doing?

What's he doing?

Hunting a gun, basically, on Earth.

I don't know, sir, since I'm studying, but excuse me, sir.

You know, it's why Peterson brought this to my attention.

I'm the attorney general in the Ellsberg case.

He is in the Watergate case.

I am in the Ellsberg case.

Let me say, I want no cover-up.

Good God Almighty, as far as I'm concerned, we had no alternative.

But who would be here to conduct an investigation, conduct our own?

That's why I agreed to give that message.

But on the other hand, I was victimized by the acts of some people, the fact that these people who were designated deliverers, or I was the officer who was on the side, kind of shut the house down.

Shut the house down?

I don't think you could think of it.

That's why I say we cannot, nor can you, it seems to me, but by now I acknowledge it.

What's Peter's recommendation?

Thank you.

Which one?

The person that we give this to.

I'd like to say something else I've done, Mr. President.

I'm good.

You are quite good.

Well, I also like to check my judgment.

I don't have very many problems.

Don't worry about me.

I don't have very many friends in this town or in the world that I look to as a friend, as a counselor.

I've checked with all your judges, you know.

I've checked with Roger Robb, one of those personal friends that I actually have found.

He did it not as a judge, he did it as a personal friend of mine.

And I did not give him all the details or facts, but I gave him a substance of it.

And he said there is only one course that can be pursued.

And that's the one that I advise that is peddling.

And like myself and Henry, what an effect you told, Chuck.

Well, what you do, you give the rudiments of the information

Misinformation has come to our attention that the psychiatrist's office was murdered by the president.

No.

By Lydian Hutton.

Now, Lydian Hutton, or... Sure.

The purpose of the hearing is Ellsberg and his attorneys have the right to the law to inspire him to.

It used to be, oh, several years ago,

But if the Department of Justice... Lydia and I have done so much, though, that I guess this is just one more thing.

Yeah, yeah.

At the end of the law, if the Department of Justice wouldn't have recorded the file of affidavit that we have no information, we couldn't possibly obtain it.

You know, the act was done, but we got nothing out of it.

That's the end of it.

We didn't accept that.

Starting with the problems in wiretapping cases, the F-15 case, that rule was brought out the one thing.

Today, as a result of the one case...

watergate situation.

No way.

It may get out, it may not get out.

In my opinion, it will not kill the case because they will be able to use no evidence whatsoever from any source of any such information with you.

Let me tell you,

I was able to tell Peterson, because when I found out, I had a sludge right here in the stand, and it happened.

In this case, I said, what do you do now?

I said, what do you do now?

The only source we have right now is Dean.

Dean then refused to testify on the grounds of the Fifth Amendment.

Or you can go out there and tell them that.

Gordon, Liddy, and Hunt told them that they did it.

You can also say that they said they didn't jailing them.

There was no information.

Then you've got two other people that

I don't think Lydia would have been going there.

And it's been to a burglary.

That's the problem.

The other point is that Lydia and I, of course, would do it.

Or Dean.

Say it was ordered to by Earl.

Sure.

Say it was ordered to by you.

No, he won't do that.

You can't do that.

Or you.

Or, well, because I didn't do anything.

I'm not saying he could do it truthfully, Mr. President, but you would have thought that this fellow, Dean, would not try to implicate you.

I think he would implicate anybody.

You think that he would try to implicate you?

But I don't.

Well, let me put it this way.

Dean has been my brother.

I didn't know about it.

He never discussed it.

I hadn't seen Dean until February.

I never had a conversation.

Now, the fact of the matter, you think of this young man that threatened to do that to save his own ass.

Yeah, I know that.

I think any individual would do anything to save him.

Not any individual.

I'm talking about John Dean, who first turned on Mitchell and turned on Earl.

Now...

You have to determine if that's what you're going to get.

You do what you do is right.

I've got to do this, but my direction to you, if I didn't think I had to do it, I wouldn't do it.

I have no doubts, whatever, to do what you said and say the information to come to our attention.

That, I thought it was something that they're going to ask, who the hell did it?

I said, the Watergate fuckers interfered in the fuck the Ulster case, right?

Well, I think what I'd like to do is to give Derox a medulla.

Sure, sure.

Derox on the patient right there.

I'll fill it.

Derox down.

Just Derox a little set.

How are you feeling otherwise?

I'm feeling fine.

Surviving the other medication.

Sure.

Don't worry about me, Mr. President.

I have a lot of health benefits.

The problem involved was the Presidency.

We all know that Dick was not a good, decent man like you saw and heard of him at home, and I thought he was a loser.

But, the main thing is, I'm definitely just talking to Henry about his solitude.

I think his motive is to create an environment whereby he will get in unity.

Can it be given?

Sure it can be given.

It should be.

I mean, let's face it, if you're a country man, you're the best you're like, huh?

If you're a black man, you're the best you're like.

No way.

But really, Dean is, Dean is bald.

And he even comes up to the point where the trump card of Dean would be that I'm going to implicate the president, and I told Henry, they don't want you until Dean can fuck himself.

You're not going to blackmail the government of the United States and implicate the president of the Ellsberg Man, right?

Right.

I have the slightest idea about that.

I say that you can't.

I don't care whether a devil will get like this.

Dick, the only one in our shop, believe me, the only one that knows anything about this is Earl.

What's his situation?

Yep.

And I, and me, whether you believe that you should inform Earl of this or not.

No, sir.

All right.

Let's look at the energy thing, because I don't see how it's there here.

It's a prosecution.

said at the moment, but it's god damn weird.

The grand jury is just terrible.

That ain't common debt, you know very well, but the court reporter, that's got to be coming right back.

You know, a court reporter who would do that risk their livelihood for $5 in Jack Anderson or $50.

It could happen, but it isn't that likely.

And it is.

I don't know.

That's one of the prosecution comments.

I don't know.

It's going to be almost impossible right now if you turn around.

Yeah.

I've asked Peterson to make it.

Why don't you lie to me?

No, I'm not going to lie to you.

I'm going to lie to you.

Jesus Christ, I'm going to lie to you.

Why?

Thank you for that.

In other words, Dean told Silbert this is fine.

No.

Dean told Silbert a week ago Sunday.

Then Silbert relayed that.

He told him a week ago Sunday.

Right.

And then to Silbert.

And then Silbert relayed this verbally to Peterson on the...

On the 16th.

And then Silver delivered to Peterson a day and a half later this memorandum.

That's all in the memorandum.

Then Peterson, I think, did the correct thing.

First he wanted to find out if it was possible that there was any such information.

He asked me that.

I told him I said this.

I said, that was the problem.

He never went, because I think Peterson attempted to.

Now, I called him and can't pay, but when he said he was going to question Hunter, I said, question him.

Anything you want, but stay out of that.

Can you remember the day of that, the relationship that set?

very important question.

I said, no, it was not.

I told you, it was a dry hole.

That was what I, then bureaucratically, he established that point, right?

So our records, you know, bureaucratically, we did the correct thing.

But now he brings this information to me this morning because it affects the health practice.

And I think it was with a great deal of reluctance that he did.

But the practical problem is you've got two memoranda here written by two attorneys in the Department of Justice that are sitting over there in those files with the same life existence that we have.

And if either one of these memos got on the street before we acted properly with that judge out there, we are really, we've got a compounded problem.

If we do it this way, we minimize it.

I mean, what in Christ would you learn from this goddamn psychiatrist?

How would that affect his children?

You're confessing to us like that.

Coming back to Dean.

You know him better than I do.

I don't know about him, but you've always trusted him.

I've trusted him.

Up until two weeks ago, I thought that he was one of the most able, fine, decent, honest, sensible young kids.

All of our people are on here today.

I must say, in fairness to him, though, Dick, I thought he was doing what was right during the summer because basically he was trying to protect our good friend John McCallum, who is very, if you and I have got to be quite honest with each other,

Dean had to know.

I think Dean knows a hell of a lot more.

I think Dean was involved in the storm.

If he had been a little bit older, you know, a little bit more mature, he would have come and told me.

He would have gotten himself out of it.

You know, he would have taken himself away from a position of confidentiality with you.

You know, so my vets are quitting.

You know, so that was it.

But then having made that mistake, Mr. President, the one thing I cannot forget anymore, no matter...

and talks to U.S. attorneys in a way that impinges upon or takes advantage of his confidential relationship with you.

He wasn't going to confess to a fucking crime.

That's right.

I felt that when he worked for the President of the United States.

Well, basically, let me say, I am not really concerned about anything I've talked to him about.

Quite frankly, for Jesus Christ, all I can say is, John, write a report and get me to the end.

I think the reason is he was involved in the subordination of Persia with the Kurds.

And secondly, he was involved in the payoffs.

And he may have, in the first instance, thought they were humanitarian.

In the second instance, he must have felt that they were out of line.

That's very, very... And I think all of them must have bought the judgment after those arrests of the Jews and made complete disclosure at that time to...

But after the election.

Yeah, but that's the point.

They didn't do it.

But as I say, if they attempted to cover it up after June 17th, thereafter, there's no time for them to come in.

What'd you say?

Well, if they, because they felt that disclosure of the whole thing affected the outcome of the election on June 18th, they then decided to cover it up.

then having made that judgment, and then done what they did, thereafter there's no time forever to come in.

All right.

Now let's, what are you, what are you told when you talk to them about being, you know, trying to still make a deal?

Oh, yeah.

Now, Henderson doesn't tell you what he's trying to do.

Oh, that's about right.

You can probably talk to me about that today.

I will not be in a position to present the United States black men and women.

I don't think I'm going to know this.

I've been trying to get to the bottom of this.

And I think it hurts me the most.

First, or most, I know it's going to be John.

I'm sure he's a good kid.

Huh?

He's a good kid.

Is he really?

I think so.

It hurts me the least.

Well, it all depends on what happens.

If they have a trial and they've got four or five people in there, I'll tell them a different thing, you know.

It's hard to say.

If you get more and more of these people coming in to confess, you know, and pleading guilty, then you've got a problem.

John gave a sworn testimony last summer.

He's back before the grand jury, and I guess just from what I read in the newspapers, he said something differently, you know.

I had three meetings in which we discussed bugging.

Christ almighty, when you're trying to get out of the United States, you've got to fire the son of a bitch, you know?

Say, no, you can't do that, boys.

That's not the right thing.

And that lends the incredibility to it, you know?

That's the problem with John Mitchell's present posture.

It's incredible.

But I didn't try to protect

And I heard Dean, and I said, good, even in July, I said, for Christ's sake, I said, let's get a report out.

The greater we can get, the more.

You know what I mean?

I said, well, Dean, assured and sacred, the White House is not involved.

But I think, I see now why Dean, assured and sacred, is not involved.

He was involved.

Right?

And then you've got others involved.

What would you do with things in the present time?

No.

Why not?

I'm not arguing.

I'm just asking.

I'm going to give you my opinion, too.

Have you noticed him?

This situation comes up.

If you don't, he's going to be pretty vicious.

You've got to realize that they don't immunize them.

They don't take on everybody.

I won't include the president.

I'd rather they hadn't do it that way.

But let me say this, thinking on the president, it's going to happen all the time.

Of all the people involved in this, I really believe I tried to do the best that I could.

I mean, I haven't tried to.

And the reason why you don't immunize him, because if you don't, and then he tries to implicate you, he's there doing it all by himself.

Yes.

Nobody else implicates the President of the United States except John Dean.

And John Dean turns out to be the very, very neat, selfish, self-directed link of the whole operation.

I told Peterson that the decision was his, which I have to, but I must admit it.

I said, I don't want Peterson to think I'm trying to immunize Dean, or not immunize Dean, because I want to protect all of America.

And that isn't the case.

I said, look, Henry, I said,

Oh, Eric, you put it out.

You don't protect him that way, you see, because the reason why you immunize John D. is to get his testimony.

And unless he's going to come forward to testify with respect to other people's conduct, there's no reason to immunize him.

See, so you don't really gain anything.

No, no, he says, well, if you immunize me, I won't then talk about the Ellsberg case, and I won't talk about my conversations with the president.

He's already talked about the Ellsberg case.

These papers are all the evidence that we need on that.

So now he, according to Henry, has said that he can't work this out, but he wants to talk to Henry Peterson and play his vinyl trump card.

Henry and I believe that that should be either Henry, me, or you.

And I said to Henry, I don't give a problem to you, but I told him,

And I said the same thing about me.

I said, he said, that goddamn word about me just doesn't get his ass out.

And I said, you do the same thing about yourself.

And you can't let him look down like this for his very intense, deep, selfish motive.

You know, as a black man, you know, people worry about this goddamn thing.

You just can't do it.

Yes, not the only thing he can get at me on is the fact that, uh,

You know, he conducted this investigation.

He did tell me about the efforts of, and this fellow Bittman, you know, the counsel, this is the last conversation I've ever had with Dean Bittman, talked to old Brian and said, huh, the money, you know, I mean, he, Bittman, basically, they needed their attorney's seat on my report of the prosecution.

And so forth.

And Dean, his credit, said, well, this is blackmail.

And I said, that's damn true.

But I think what they did on him, I don't know.

That was the day I began my investigation, because that triggered me.

I said to him on that occasion, I said, John, what do you feel this year?

I said, what's it going to cost?

He said, $50.

So he knows damn well I never,

Possibly the subject, he knows that.

Let me make a suggestion, Mr. President.

I say now that you're avoiding a regular hearing.

You must be able to.

That's good.

And I don't know the circumstance in which you did it.

I would strongly recommend that you not talk to, let's say, the attorney.

I've done it.

I'm sure of that.

I saw it today, but for only one purpose.

I said, I want you to tell me what your analysis is, and there is a legend on it.

You're the right name I'm around for.

I need to have that in my mind.

Beyond that, I have told them nothing.

I've only asked for their judgment on that point, because I don't even know what my case is.

I've got nobody else to ask.

I can't ask you.

That's what I say.

I feel so sorry for you.

That's all.

I will not see them again.

Every post-confidential advisor you've got is really important.

And I've taken care of that.

And you ought to get yourself another advisor.

Well, I'm just a rocker.

I'm just going to be honest with you.

I don't want to get you involved.

But you really should, Mr. President, get yourself a mature, capable, sound lawyer over here to be your counselor.

He's really needed.

I agree.

You know, we have to work together.

That's fair enough.

To me, I've got to have something.

I've got to get that food and be able to talk into your class.

But at least there's something for me.

I've got to have something.

I don't mean that that makes my decision.

Is Dean still hanging on to this?

He may be.

My problem there is that I can't really, until Peterson, he makes it so he doesn't.

I can't say, look, Dean, you go on the other side.

Basically, Dean is the most recent follower.

You know that.

I know that now.

You sure know what the message is?

Yeah.

I'm sure you know the reason.

This is unconscionable.

What do you learn?

And a national security investigation is unconscionable.

National security investigation is unbelievable.

It's unconscionable.

Particularly when there was no product as a result of it.

Particularly when you deal with it, what you better do is to obey this.

You can't just try to act too active.

No matter what you're doing, you must obey it.

You must obey it as perfectly as possible.

You can't just kind of keep it through and say that they're all the way they must be.

So the Watergate partners, what do you say?

You rock the case.

Just say that this information came to the attention of the Department of Justice and the Watergate investigation, and it was immediately disclosed to the judge trying the Ellsberg case.

And that is a great posture for us to be in at this particular time.

If we don't do it, and it's gonna be found out, somebody's gonna put this out in the street.

Two days, three days from now, and we are then in the suit.

Okay, sir?

Good deal.

Fine.

Stand firm.

Don't fight hard.

You too, sir.

Yes.

We've got a few more hours, Mr. President.

Well, look, I just feel we're all in this together.

You're all right, sir.

We're all in this together.

Not me.

Really, I feel for that damn dean.

I know.

We're going to protect the presidency and everything else.

That's what you're doing.

Okay?