Conversation 433-067

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Hi Dave.

Welcome back.

How was the wedding?

Not too nice.

Not too nice, man.

Oh, well.

That was your idea, too, I understand.

Well, hell, I knew what you'd been going through and how to get out of your wedding.

You said, I don't want anything to do with my wedding.

I've done about two months of advances in this thing.

Except as a year older.

Number two, a second...

Marry a son.

We have four boys.

You have four boys?

Four boys and a lovely daughter.

Smart.

She's number four.

She's 21.

She's going to graduate from college.

Sorry to say she went to Yale.

That's all right.

She must be smart.

I tell you, I am.

Well, that's a little simplified.

She's a wonderful girl.

She is smart.

She probably is the greatest of them all.

Say you look fine.

I'm sorry that we're saving you.

We've known each other for years.

I had talked to Peterson, you know, the foreman, and I had talked to him again.

You liked him?

Very much, yeah.

I liked him.

I thought he was a very fine man.

Fair, honest, everything.

And he was like, I'll try to get around to it.

I said, now you tell me about Dick Morris.

He's a wonderful man.

And I said, well, I'm sure I'm going to get him involved in some of the changes.

And he always says, we look upon him as a witness.

And that's what he's told me.

And that's good to hear.

I don't know what he's told you or anything, but I just wanted to know that.

Well, thank you.

No, that's good.

I just want to know, how do you see your situation at the present time?

I remember the little brief conversation we had before, like, Florida and Eastern, and you said, look, don't have a cover-up on the cover-up.

I just wanted to be sure that you realize that I'm not trying to cover up this whole set of objections.

I do.

I mean, people have brought this to my attention.

People have frankly misled me.

They may have told me that.

To his credit, John Dean, after his talk with you, when he came in assuming the 21st, did use the term cancer in the heart of the White House, and that told me about his son-in-law doing all the way, Hunt's lawyer was trying to get money for him.

And that's what kicked me off.

I mean, well, God damn it, it just can't continue.

That's what, we've got to give him credit for that now.

But then after that, what he did, I don't know.

I just, just thought it was crazy.

He had said it was a very, very clever thing to do.

But anyway, the point that I want to get across to you is I'd like to take from a custom that

And let me say, I don't know what, nobody ever, but when you met, when you, you were at the La Costa meeting, and John Dean, and Bob Hall, and John Erdman met there, they never talked to me about the Don.

We never discussed it.

You know, except in terms of getting a statement of, you know, my whole being throughout the day,

This thing, as I told Dean, when I sent Dean after on the 21st, I said, well, John, go write a report.

He went to Camp David.

He spent a week, and said I couldn't write a report.

And then he went and brought it to his lawyers, which was all right.

I don't blame you for that.

You see, it's actually my point is, the La Costa meeting,

where he's not going, where basically the purpose was.

That's what I was trying to tell you as I walked out the door that day, that the purpose was from anybody.

No, because neither Hall nor Hurley told me about this demand for money.

I wasn't in that.

They never even told me that they'd ever asked my good old friend Cobb off to raise money.

I didn't know about the 350.

I don't know any of those things.

My knowledge of the whole goddamn thing began in March.

When I began my own current thing, he said, I realized, and I put the key question to Dean, and that's my version of Jesus.

Look, John, we were talking, and I said, all right, we can get $120,000 for this fall, but I said, no, it would take over four years.

A million dollars.

We'd get a million.

How the hell is it delivered to him?

How are you going to give him any clemency?

I said, I can't give him any clemency.

Couldn't even think of it until after 1974.

I said, it won't work.

Very interesting, Mr. President, that

And he knows that.

He knows that.

That's what I said on that occasion.

I don't know what he said to others, but that's what we need to know from you.

You spent about an hour.

An hour and a half.

On that occasion, no more than that.

Well, no, he came in.

I spent hours with him.

A total of about eight hours.

But you're going to... Well, let me tell you, the first time you and he came in, it was about something else.

It was about... We met here.

We met here the other day.

Four weeks.

That's right.

Was there anything that I was trying to cover?

No, you don't have to tell me.

Tell me the truth.

If I was, I'll go down to each girl.

And we would talk mostly about separation.

So we spent most of the time talking about it.

Clearly the theory of separation.

And I put that in the press conference.

Yes, me.

You were all part of the crime.

Yes, indeed.

That was, when you entered the press conference, I anticipated this.

And you were across the line.

You had a Bruce appointment.

And you were waiting to finish your letter.

And then we talked about it.

Right.

At the press conference.

And then, that was true.

And then on March... That was the 27th.

What?

Anyway, I don't know if you can talk about that.

Yes.

That was in mid-March.

March 12th was their month.

Then on March 20th, you sent quickly to me, and we just, we were talking about the year, and we kind of got off the main subject.

You came up with this notion about how Bill Sullivan might be able to do a lot of things.

Yeah, yeah.

Remember, I asked you, and I forgot about Bill Sullivan.

And then?

And then he didn't have anything.

No.

And he also had a suggestion that we might challenge the Senate and Senators to lay out their campaign to vote against the resignation.

That was on the 20th?

That was on the 20th.

We were talking about it here.

Where was that?

That was here?

That was in the Oval Office.

And then we talked a little bit about, can't we just issue a full statement?

We talked about the law and executive privilege.

It was kind of a general discussion.

the point is as far as you're concerned and understand i'm talking to you not just not talking through the guidance but i want you to tell them you're right but can you not honestly say that

No, I didn't know it was Christ.

Did I indicate that deans don't know the truth?

That protects somebody?

No, no, no.

You're going to be alright.

See, the truth is what's counted.

That's right.

Now, the point is that I can't remember why I came to the conclusion that I didn't know it.

That you didn't know maybe it was the deans that were worried about you.

I was worried about a known testimony.

It was crazy to me.

He told you this, but he hasn't told me that.

I know that.

This is the way I've learned it.

I went out the door and I called and I said, you know, I don't think the President has any notion of the kind of things that are worried about you, whatever they are.

I didn't know all of them.

I said, have you?

Did you know about them?

I thought, have you ever told him?

He said, no.

I said, well, then you're not serving him.

I don't think you're quite told him.

he's going to make a point because on this occasion on the 20th dick we talked about i think this is all crap it was elect executive privilege in camp the senators disclosed their stuff that's right you know i said and i wasn't even talking about cover-up wasn't it were we thinking of were we thinking about the only thing i wondered we did talk about mitchell in the enemy that poor son we all knew mitchell was guilty but

I asked him point blank because we both, yes, all the time, all the time, one occasion, I put the date on the right and I listened to him.

I still don't, in other ways.

But I would say during those few days coming up to Mark's point, he was showing signs of great concern about it all.

Yes, but he was showing them not to me.

He didn't tell me.

He was so damn glad for that meeting.

But then when I said, John, and I... Mark, you're about to start here.

No, no, no.

Go back to the Oval Office.

Oh, I get it.

That, that, uh, now, I don't know whether he intended to meet them, and I don't think he had that, uh, or put a hold of them, but I don't think he had.

But in any event, I recall this quite currently, that I went back to his office and said, I said, now look, you're worried about yourself.

The only way you can provide this for anybody, including both of all the presidents, is with full knowledge.

And I said, if you're going to tell him everything you know, you're going to feel better.

I said, he's going to be, you know, he'll probably serve, you know, with his lovingness and what the facts are.

And I said, he's going to be good for the country, so why don't you sleep on that?

I was worried about that.

He said, and he, I can't remember the words, but I got the impression that he was impressed by this approach.

Now, maybe, I don't have access to your telephone now, but I think what happened that night was that I got a phone call from him from home saying, guess what happened?

I said, this, I, you know, as far as the ground, he said, the president just called me and he talked some more about the hearing and he said, I invited him to, you know,

I was pulled by the horse, and he said, I was going to call him, why don't I ask him for the money?

I said, Mr. President, I don't think I'm going to see you.

I tell you a lot of things you should know that I haven't told you, and I'm worried for that.

And he said, the President said, come in a half month from now.

I said, yeah, that's great.

I think that call might have been when I saw him early in the morning, but I... Whatever it was, it wasn't.

It's always one of those.

But it would be interesting if my company is prepared by the fact that you made a quote in the night of March 20th.

I might ask for a quote or something like that.

Really?

Well, I guess that gives me a little confidence in my narrative.

But it does, it does.

All right.

What is he?

Yes.

tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

You didn't say, well, you want me to get over up here with a Pomona man around here?

No.

You said, come on in.

And now, I think that when he arrived, because we did look at the law, and I can't tell you what the law was.

I just had to go.

I just looked at the legislation.

Sure enough, he, Pomona was early going to be at the 10 o'clock.

We didn't know about it.

Five minutes after 10, they looked through it with me at the morning.

The dean was alone with me for at least an hour, an hour and an hour, and then all of them came in.

Because when he brought up this call, it was big as crap.

I told him, what the hell is all this about?

And then after the meeting, what did he say to me?

And I quite quickly recall when I saw him, I think that's Saul, did you hear?

It was a great relief, I think, because it was the president.

But I saw it, so he said, no, he put his arm around me.

I said, well, thank you.

I can't believe that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I said, well, I thought he was the doctor.

Now, I couldn't be confused.

He also saw you on 17th, you know, on 17th and must be there at the end of 15th.

Yeah, yeah.

And he said, and I tried to ask him negatively, but he didn't work.

You know, he was still speaking to him.

And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

But what I don't know is what Dean has in those documents.

You've got to find that out if you're ever going to see one of them.

You don't know.

You've got investigators who know how fellows behave when they're in trouble and start making memories.

I'm sure his documents indicate his story of everything.

And it's maybe very different from what you just told me is.

And very different from what I said to him.

But you realize that it comes down to that.

You can't let him destroy your presence.

And I told him to do it.

I didn't know about the goddamn water leak.

I was horrified when I heard about it.

Throughout, I kept saying, can we get the facts out?

You know, they reported about the indictment, so I said, go down and get the facts out.

You know I was out there saying, get out the surveillance, get all of them and go out.

Get down to the committee.

You remember Dick?

My whole line is good.

And I've been trying to get them to support it.

You know what I mean?

It has never been better.

When the whole thing came up, I was damn clear on it.

I said, it can't be considered on a personal basis.

But I never discussed it with Erlin at all.

Never.

Never, never.

Well, I didn't promise to pay any money.

Well, there was two, several things about that.

First of all, to me it's very interesting.

If someone was going to make a deal with a governor, they're going to pay the arrestees.

Yeah.

In June 17th or July, or before we get there.

The key thing was that grand jury didn't come.

The first thing I'd ask, if I were to attend for a season like this or not, would be, do you know how much money I want that to put into the wall of fantasy?

Yeah.

It wasn't until December after his wife died, apparently, that his lawyer came in and asked for fantasy.

So...

There was no deal made back in the next phase with the rest of the women.

Yes, but that came later.

That was in January.

What I mean is, if you kept this balance shot, if there were deals made with those people, as long as you knew, they would have asked you back in July or June.

That wasn't bad to make the deal when they had the bargaining power.

And I took that as not after the election.

After the election, I didn't give a shit.

That's right.

How could I care?

Therefore, I took that piece of this narrative of the lawyer coming to Colton to be a feminist as a present law that's here standing on the fence.

Let me say this.

Hurley would never walk into my office and discuss my case.

Never, never, never.

But the only occasion it ever was even mentioned, and if only in a very intentional way, was by Folsom.

And as I was walking from this office, he said, you know, we've got a huntsman friend of mine.

His wife's just been killed.

He's got to be terribly concerned, you know, about hundreds of women.

And I said, Chuck, it has to all be considered on the merits.

But that's what I said.

I didn't say, no, like, I said, well, you've been told he's going to get out.

Yes, but you don't imagine me saying that, do you?

Of course not.

And the fact is that the Bean, the Newsweek article, doesn't start very, very weak.

And I read it and I said, I can see what happened here.

One, Bean had been announced as saying that the two things, one, he'd been announced as saying that the one

I would never walk out on August 19th in that press conference day and have said, based on the Dean's report, they told me to say the Dean's report.

Why would I send it?

a lot of self-serving documents they've got to be destroyed of course they like some of this

So when you've been destroyed in the base, then why do you wait nine months?

Now there's another couple of things that I think we have to remember about the team story.

That his involvement in one area where he cannot put in, he cannot couple in earlier than all of them.

He was in the preparating for group in the very second one.

He did confirm that that's what he did.

He went there.

He did it on his own.

You know, I spent, can you tell me how much time is this?

I spent an hour with the soldier that's there at the camp on the street, right?

Right.

And I have a good brother.

And, uh,

They indicated that they're, my lawyer who went in first, that I was not a doctor.

But they thought that he had no witness, and they were particularly interested in any discussion about testimony.

Right.

But you never participated in that meeting?

No, I'm coming back now.

It turned out that they seemed much more interested in that than in that one customer meeting.

But they asked you all the answers.

How did they know about that?

I don't know.

He had that kind of talk.

He hasn't testified even yet.

No, I didn't mean to have him on the phone.

He did meet with him or avoid him.

And apparently told him great many things.

I assumed that he would have told him that because it would corroborate knowledge like that.

But I don't know how they knew it.

How did it happen?

They asked me.

They said at the peace meeting it was money discussed.

They said it was a mixed discussion.

I went through the whole

First of all, it was two meetings.

Saturday and Sunday.

Was it primarily about money?

No.

I said it wasn't primarily about money.

It's a horrible thing.

It was a total, parenthetical thing on the second day.

The reason for the meeting.

I know that you think it was for a statement.

Maybe that's the way you look.

Maybe that's what you said.

But that wasn't.

You're often talking about statements that we've made, getting it out.

But what was the reason?

The reason was, as I understood it, this was May 9th, May 10th.

On May 7th, May 8th,

They named the committee.

And as I recall, when we met, John said, okay, what have we done?

What are we going to handle?

How are we prepared for it?

And we had done a great deal, and now it's that team and I.

And I said, what about the committee in Mitchell?

Are they jumping into this thing?

Because they're going to have to carry the burden.

State of the White House, but the vehicle that they're using is the committee, that they have lawyers and NPR people, and that John Mitchell is getting input from him, and we said we did not want to do it, and I said, well, we should.

And at that point, I recalled, I said, well, Dick, you should be John Mitchell, both in Philly and in everything we've discussed here.

I remember that.

Mitchell was the first to start carrying his shirt.

That's right.

Which he had not done.

That's right.

And he said they ought to expand it.

They've got to borrow some young lawyers to do the research on the transcripts.

We have to get through all the transcripts and all the civil suits.

We've got to find out

all the evidence is what people have said who's going to do all this kind of thing and uh i was going to be with john and lay out all this stuff then you go to television the fact is that this is a foreign

because it was a political thing, trying to make the public understand it was political.

In other words, strategy breaks down because it's today.

It was my recollection on the second day, he might have been talking to John, might have been asked about how about the Lawson's, and I think John was responding to that.

I thought it was, by the way, I gather from the lawyers that they're going to need some more money, or they're going to run out of money, not in connection with the law system, but that

In connection with all the laws.

Well, Alan, the lesson came up out of that framework, but I think in fairness, he was talking about the lawyers.

In other words, he's the lawyers for the committee of the lawyers.

And someone had relayed to him that we're going to be submitting some more money.

At this point, the thought that there was a cover-up within the White House, even by me, let alone... Never heard of that in my head.

This was February 10th.

Long before it had started to surface, the case was over, and it had been convicted.

Correct.

So I said, well, Dick should ask to go to the hotel next, so maybe we can catch on with Ritz-Carlton or something like that.

And I said, okay.

So I decided, okay.

Now, I understand, my lawyer met with the department, but this was not a big thing when they talked to Bob Jones.

I don't think it's a big thing.

It wasn't the purpose of the conversation.

You weren't talking about a fix, that's the point.

Well, I hope.

Certainly not.

I'm getting it back what I'm getting at.

Your belief in John and Bob was not at that time to get money from the lawyers to shut somebody up, whatever.

No.

Now, maybe it wasn't.

We don't know.

My theory at that time, later on, you know, much, much later, unless we think about it, I began to think that Dean was, I thought prior to that, before the Six Flags came about, that maybe Dean did know of me or something like that.

uh, because he was so much into, you know, he was sort of in contact with McGruder, with everybody.

And O'Brien, apparently.

O'Brien?

O'Brien, or either O'Brien or, or, uh, Parkinson.

And they're worried, of course, but I think, well, wait, I think maybe Nate has, he, uh, was relayed by people like Bishman, or Bustamante, I don't know, that's, but, but I never, never thought of this coming in here.

No.

John,

I had some knowledge.

I was being scientific.

Well, I'd never done anything that had done this.

But until I heard about the three other things about it, that's when I began to wonder about that view.

By the way, I didn't know about the tree, but I didn't hear about it until, frankly, John gave it to me.

And that's what he is.

What he wrote.

Yes.

But they, I didn't know about it that evening.

What did he tell you about the treatment?

I think that was the Thursday or Friday, April 12th or 13th.

Not until then.

I believe that's when I returned from that.

You see, and that's when, when, when, no, no, it was before, it was earlier than it was.

It was that week.

You returned from the 2nd of May on April 8th.

That's right.

And April 9th, when Darman joined.

Yeah.

And then,

I heard it all the first time.

And when I began to hear about these things, he got more alarmed than I was going to stand for that he would if he graduated.

And I was also, I think that on Thursday night that week, which would have been April 12th, we had the dinner with Jackie and Dominic and so, and that was probably the second conference in the morning.

I don't know.

Well, thank you.

Thank you.

I have a bottle of juice.

No?

No.

We didn't know what the facts were, but I remember telling Chappie that I had just heard that $350,000 was taken from a white person who was sitting in the White House over the front of the room at night.

So that means that he must have told me that within the last 24 hours.

We didn't know where it was kept.

And I said, was it really physically in the violence?

And I've asked him that, and he didn't tell me.

So, indeed, I told you that week.

I think that's about it.

He hasn't told you before that?

Not about that.

I guess he did tell me.

I think he told me at a point in time.

You know, I think so.

I'm so busy.

I can't remember.

I know the three things.

I don't know what he told me.

He told me something.

He let it all out.

That was his phrase.

He told me everything.

Yes, I said, he told me about that black man there.

The fact of getting them.

Yes.

Yeah, this was... What did he say about it?

That he told you.

He didn't say, I proved it.

No, no.

But I said, go out and get the money.

I didn't... No, no, no.

He meant that he now disclosed to you what you hadn't known.

I wanted to make sure that he was right.

And told you everything.

So he probably told you about the 350,000.

And I think he did, but I don't know.

But anyway, I got to treat him to one soon enough, yeah.

And the only question I asked him, and I kept asking him, I said, John, from a lawyer's standpoint, I need to have a legal opinion as to whether or not money for defense purposes, whether that is legal or not.

He said it depends on the intent.

That's what he told me.

He said, did you ever have a chat with me about that same thing?

He said it's two steps.

Corrupt, and then there's a later step.

He said, you know, it will.

But the point is that it's a

John Mitchell is going to be charged with this in the next two years.

It's an early movie because of the launching of the combine.

But the whole point is they're going to have a hell of a time proving that on any of them.

Because it's a bad, tough point.

What was their intent in getting the money?

What was their intent to do this?

Or their intent in providing any seats for people who were voicing things?

Well, I think with that kind of, I don't know how much money was involved with it, but it was a lot.

You get a jury here, and they ask you to fix the view.

What the hell would they be getting all this money for, except for violence?

We love these people.

They can come in, but we don't hear of them.

They do our employees.

It's a tough one.

It's very tough.

I agree.

You get this kind of jury, the big sphere of it.

Well, that may ruin the trial.

Yes, but in that sense, it was fairly impressive.

Oh, yes.

Well, now, Dean, you should know...

So in my statement at that time, then they said, did you tell John Mitchell about it?

I said, yes.

And I explained how, and it was true.

I was friends with him, but knowing a little bit of the relationship there, I dried.

I went up, I told John Mitchell, I said, you couldn't go up.

You don't go to John Mitchell and say, look, John, do this and that.

You won't do anything.

I said, I request you down here with them.

He said, yes, I will.

I voted him up.

And he said, come on up Thursday and come on up in the morning, we'll have lunch at the day.

And we didn't have to have lunch, but I sat down and said, okay.

And most of them had me notice.

That's what I did.

I did a scripted notice.

I did the way I know how to do it.

When you don't do it, I'm a man.

I don't know what that was about.

So I said, now, first of all, we had two days with John and Bob and everybody.

I said to the judge, know that we'd like you to take it more active in its role in the hearings.

And he goes, yes, very nice of him.

He said, well, do they know that everybody here is a star witness?

He said, at various hearings, you can assure us.

And then I said, also, if you're so disposed, it would be nice if you could spend a heck of a time in the Washington office.

And he said, thank you, again.

You know, I was such a kid when we were there.

And I said, also, I don't know what this is all about, but they indicated, I don't know how I put it, that there was going to be a need for some more money, and maybe we could do some fundraising.

And they said, that would be very fun.

And now let's get down to business.

And that was it.

That was good.

And then I went through all these things.

And the staff, the budget was approved.

In fact, a lot of people are going to be sure they have that in this government.

All right.

Yeah.

But I had now, you should know, I told them about me, they wanted to know everything that I knew about the water, every contact that I had with the committee.

When did I first hear about it?

Well, actually, I came in here, I didn't tell them where I was, I couldn't think of it, Sunday morning, early, but one of those deadlines, I was behind, I was over the deadline, I was about to

Because I made porters in the morning paper and I was so horrified that I couldn't.

Or harder than I thought, it's a goddamn killer.

Is that what you thought?

I thought, you know, I didn't stop to think about those words.

I made statutes.

I just thought to myself, this will come to be.

And we looked through everything and it was all about the foolish and the...

and I believe that Cuban story they had after a while.

I did.

What I thought was that the Cubans got into some move, got a little bit of a mess to recognize that stuff.

I heard that story.

You see, I don't pay so little attention that I should have followed a little more of it.

Nobody led the other way.

Dean could have been held, but maybe he didn't want to go in.

Now, a big difference.

But nothing at the time.

It was legitimate medicine, but it could be embarrassing.

I got a call here.

I just always wrote John statements.

He always answered.

John?

John Mitchell.

And when he had this kind of a situation, he would call me, and I would talk to my little brother, and he'd say, and the operator said, Mr. Mitchell was calling from California.

He and Jeff and Cliff Miller and...

Jeff came on the phone.

He said, would you place this call?

John Mitchell wants to talk to you, but he isn't here.

He said, believe it or not, we've just discovered that one of our tools is working for us.

And he said, apparently the AP has been afraid of it.

John Mitchell wants to know, what do you think?

Can we let it go first?

And I said, I said, by all means.

And I said, no is better.

I said, I don't know.

But I assume nobody, or the government, we couldn't be more surprised.

This is crazy, but there it is.

You might even work with some other client.

I said, well, let's jump right on with it.

We've talked about how you could issue a statement saying this and that and this, and there's nothing about it that's totally unauthorized, except for retention and so forth.

That was all.

But when I was asked by this gentleman, you know, it wasn't that very clear about the

Roy came and told him, uh, what did that person talk to me about for the committee?

It was Sunday morning, and he said, they were disabled in the White House, but the judge didn't turn and make the challenge.

He did have a letter of resignation.

Well, anyway, that's the next, what was the next time, as far as I can recall, is when he resigned.

I wrote them a letter about the church that was there.

So they, they inspired me.

You know, they have an official diary with every phone call in every district.

And then I was busy with the convention and other things, and I apparently didn't have any contact with people about it.

And in mid-September, though, Maury was upset with all of Mexico's money and the $29,000 in the pilot committee and everything that he probably wasn't getting, but in his commitment of

our advisory group lori said can't take more help and that's better and paul or i would made a little test for us to meet with the committee people every day and so i'm in that book it means with mitchell and uh

All these PR problems, political.

Every day there was a statement from the governor, somebody attacking us.

O'Brien was filing into a vented suit.

We talked about the libel suit.

And they accepted all this.

I mean, it was true.

And then the dean or the recruiter or any of them never indicated that kind of... Well, I've got a feeling they were involved.

No.

I couldn't have been more of a bait in the woods.

Sitting there with that gang, because that's what they all do.

Everybody could flip an eye.

and powell or knew i guess what happened but this of course was after uh they were excited about the suit

abusive process about what happened to me.

We do it that kind of nonsense all day.

And answering for government, answering for Senator Morse, and to lawyer being a criminal.

But there I was in the book for about a period of 10 days.

So after that, I never got back into these things, except sort of in the book by Chapin, which came out in October.

Well, back and forth on that.

uh in the discussion about that no i was bested i turned out lovely and i just barely especially had to leave a wonderful guy yes and he just picked a lousy son of a and the guy exceeded his authority just like her in a situation of that hunt trying to murder us i'm going to sign papers on this for what god damn earthly reason it's also a night

And they never told me about that either.

Well, of course, they shouldn't, thank goodness, that's why.

I mean, when I say they shouldn't have, what they should have done is done something about it.

I mean, I was trying to go to China, Russia, 18,000 other things, and I must admit, that was the farthest thing from my mind in Australia.

Well, I was as busy as you were, and I didn't see the situation.

I didn't see the...

After the trials, I thought it was just not the way.

We're worried all the time.

We had to worry about what the Magruder had told about it.

And that wasn't right.

And of course, there are other ones that I'm not sure about.

And it was a little bit troubling again that you get a little bit of that in March about his worrying about his testimony.

He was going to testify and he was going to have to impeach.

About the number of meetings.

About those meetings and what happens to those meetings.

Right.

And you won't see much about those meetings until you're on vacation.

No, never told me.

But just to finish with me, they, then we got into, my next contact was, apparently with the Senate resolution, we decided we were going to have a little task force to win it.

plan our responsibility and our participation.

Dean was to be the quarterback.

Wally Johnson was going to be attached to serve full-time in congressional relations.

We were going to use Patrick Hammond as the writer of statements, and I was to be available as an assistant or to lead for whatever he did.

And I was, beyond all the white house proof, working across the board.

That was the avenue.

as to whether I'd ever been on any meetings where they discussed testimony.

And my lawyer said, you know, he said, the only lawyer that I have here is William and Gouda, for any reason.

I decided to come up here with him and let him do what he was going to do at a meeting.

He said, but they never came forward with a meeting, saying, well, what about a meeting?

You made a meeting before Warner did.

Yeah.

You were never connected with Warner.

No connection.

I know that.

I mean, it hasn't happened.

so this has given me all the dope i asked you to help her in the meetings and you were narrating that wasn't the problem the only problem is whether it is the goddamn cover-up that's what that's the problem and uh what i uh you see the uh they presume that i have no problem at all what i would have to say is and i've told them uh would be the uh

need for money remark and related to John Hathaway.

What did I think it was for?

Well, it did, did Erlichman and Holland raise any questions?

They seem to know what they know about it.

Well, I don't know what they did.

But it looks as though they knew something.

How do we all know about this money and what it's for?

Nobody said anything.

I didn't ask.

There's a little implication that either John or Bob must have known.

No, I don't think, no, he is worried about Lacoste.

I don't think that they're worried about the Lacoste thing because basically the money there, they did set up more of an office.

They did need it for other people and so forth and so on, and they did discuss it in terms of the...

That money could have been, you know, there's a lot of criticism on how you can come up with money to lower your personal sins and credit sins to other people.

Now that everybody's so virtuous, you know, that, you know, I'm getting back to the Dean thing.

It's where it goes here.

I'm looking at it and it's worried.

You know, Dean, as you know, is in this position.

Holloman has not sought immunity.

Earlyman has not sought immunity.

New natural hero, small fish.

Anybody who seeks immunity immediately has to leave the staff and support their own.

I mean, that's the mission of Gilman.

And that is the problem that we have with Dean, and that's why we couldn't, I had to treat him differently from the other two, and he didn't know that.

On the other hand,

and by not giving him an interview, that I basically, that maybe the president was protecting them.

I had told Peterson from the time I made my statement, I said,

Oh, right from the beginning.

April 15th.

No, no, because I had to make it very clear.

I made a statement on April 16th when I spoke to the press there, when I said that I was part of my own investigation on March 21st, and there is evidence that no immunity, that is my view, that no immunity should be granted to a major person.

I said, you have a better term for this picture over here.

Because I, frankly, doubt it.

in dean's case they say they're going to try to they haven't yet made a deal with them and that the real question is which i guess you and i can't do a thing about should they get into me well first of all

Peterson, Peterson told me, he said, no, I said, he said, the record is not consigned.

He said, why?

I said, well, if you're aware that the Senate committee appears to, if you don't have friends, I'll be about your friend, I'll recommend it to you.

And I said, God, can they do that?

That has to be, that has to be applied for in court through the Attorney General and then in Syracuse, and then in Syracuse.

I see.

In fact, he was sure a good, open witness to be in full immunity.

on television, and it would be a sensible thing.

But this whole kind of hearing is a travesty in terms of fair play and due process and everything else.

And I think... Is he going to be the first one?

Well, that was a rumor today.

Indeed, he'll be the first one.

There was a story that the Senate was hoping that they might be able to get him again, and they didn't put him on.

He was first there very early.

And, well... Now, some of the best lawyers

My own role here, I haven't, you know, been able to do whatever you want.

I, in a sense, have a white hat, a big band, and I've persuaded, I don't know if I'm wrong.

John?

King, yeah.

I've persuaded him to go in and tell the truth.

I hope that wasn't a mistake.

I feel that.

No, I wanted to know the truth.

That's what I said to him.

I said, you're not serving the country.

I rolled over the whole thing with him, and the conversation was, I must say, I was examining him very tough.

He didn't, I didn't do any of the odds, and I, you know, I took me down the line and said, well, I suppose maybe we could get the $120,000, whatever you wanted, and I mean, that's what it's going to take for four years, is make it, make it, and I said, well, we can get it, and he said, I said, how are you going to get it to him?

I mean, I said, for Christ's sake, John, it won't work.

Right, but that...

Okay, that, that, I understand.

That's the, that's the, uh... Oh, the blackmail.

No, no, no, then we use the term blackmail.

Yeah, but I bet the, the legal and moral intervention of paying money, how much is picked up, is more important.

I'm sure that would be, I'm sure people, not so much that it's a difficult thing to do, because I mean... No, no, no, I went through that.

I'm just saying it wouldn't work.

And I also had, at one point in the conversation, I made it out, I said, and also it's wrong.

That, that's the main one.

Right.

Because he may see these steps.

I know that I also said, and also it's wrong.

That's the important thing.

That's what we have to hear.

And also, if he, as a counsel, after all this, goes out and says, I came and told the president all this,

And then, what did the President do?

Well, the President took me down this line, and so forth.

He'll probably forget that I said it's wrong.

I know I said it, because I made it on a different question.

That might quite be the same, but that might be a different thing.

I then started the goddamn attempting investigation.

I had him, I said, do you write a report?

I had earlier, you know, conducting an investigation.

I wasn't, I wasn't even aware of that.

I put in one of them and he's like, California, you've got to find another, you've got to find another ass in here.

What the hell's going on?

So early to talk to him.

Everybody I could mention.

Well, that's the biggest thing I've seen.

The attorneys, they talk to them.

Talk to them.

Talk to...

What he already had wasn't a real reaction to me.

There's one thing I wanted to ask you that was pretty helpful.

John Carleton, uh, cannot pin this down, uh, suspected a Friday afternoon, uh, whirled me over and said, I'm just about to come in.

So I was both spending time with the two of them.

And at this point, uh, I was out on the Watergate, discussing TV.

You had said, I remember, at the time, when you came in here,

then it was clear that all of our other people were being criticized and that you thought you because i didn't talk to john dean and megan yeah yeah i took them home that's right so and then i got dean i said now you're a little few and a man and dick and then being old for quite a while that's right but this uh looks to me like it might have been a march 10.

He said, to my surprise, the president wanted to talk about what he did, and he said, you know, wait a second, let it all hang out.

Let it go.

Whatever it is, and he said to me, could you try your hand at a, at a, I don't know, at least over the weekend, at a statement.

That was Paul.

That was Paul, sir.

Excuse me.

Let it all hang out.

And that was fine.

But that's who, I mean, this was a directive from you.

And I said, well, John, you know, they said we can have it Monday.

Well, first of all, sure, anything can be done by Monday, but I don't have any knowledge in the world against them.

I know a good deal about the tape that's gone on in the subreddit.

I don't know.

I said, I don't know if you can get with me and see what you can tell me about what an open statement of everything would look like.

And he said, well, you can't do that, but he said, at least get started with anybody.

And Kimber said, oh, sorry, I'm degraded.

And then, as I recall, by Saturday, Dean told me the signal had been reversed, so I didn't do it.

Dean said, yeah.

Yeah.

And I think I called to ask him about that.

This had just come back to me recently, about not getting the, yeah, but he said, you get the stick.

And what the interesting thing is that as recently as March 10th, I think that would have been the day, it might have been March that week earlier, you told John, look, the time has come to whatever it is, to let it all hang out now with these trains.

Let it all go with the president.

You said to the president, let it all go.

I want to read it again.

Now, if you had known these horrendous things would have been, you would have been a little bit more careful.

In other words, he would have killed you.

You didn't know anything.

I didn't know a thing.

I thought it was so great.

I didn't think anybody would know anything.

Oh, for heaven's sake.

I thought, frankly, the fiction was very good.

I was smart enough.

The main point, I thought, get the goddamn facts out.

You know, get it out.

Separate the white house from this thing.

That was my movie.

You said, or rather, anyway, John Mitchell came down on April 14th.

And Charlie Quinn appears to be saying, look, you're not going to be able to serve the president by keeping him out, sir.

You're not.

You'd much prefer it to have the president tell everything.

All right.

Now, we know you and I know this, and you and us know this, and it's a matter of making certain that my way and the public understand it.

Or they won't say it, don't worry about it.

Okay.

Did John know much about this number of money?

You mean about the 350?

Sure, the money went, but how it was used or so forth, no.

How it was delivered and so forth, no.

Hell no.

I didn't have any guilty plan either at that time.

I'm sorry, I had the feeling that there was no guilty planning, but you're all over her.

That's right, and I've already done it.

That's why I defended them to the last stick.

I felt that they were involved and dragged in by, you know, something.

They wouldn't kill them, and I just didn't really condone them, but I think I had to do it, don't you agree?

Yes, I do.

I, uh, John Andrews asked me for my own thoughts about, uh, you know, talking to Marneye.

I don't think you should to Marneye.

But I think that people, I haven't read a statement yet, but we're beginning to get a little sense of that question about everybody being kept.

I think that's beginning to... You're beginning to feel a little bit?

A little bit.

These fellows are a bit convicted already by the public.

I don't want to put up

I can't defend Hollywood and I can't defend Ireland.

I can't agree, I can't defend.

Because if I do them, then I've got to defend Mitchell.

I can't do it.

No, I just keep in mind, though, there is a little realism developing in that way.

Yes, and at the right time, I think, the notion that this company still should believe and always has believed that people against them have proven guilty.

I'm going to get that in.

I can say that at a bright time, but I don't think I want to do it in that audience.

I would think that would be the only thing that would be said.

That's right.

And I think that it's a tough call because they're going to say, you know, you're doing something.

Well, maybe I'll say something.

And, you know, it's a question if the government said the best thing, because there's so many things.

But it's good because you've got it in the language of dialogue.

But this was not the action.

It was part of the action.

And you have to be good for it, better than what it is.

Whatever it was, whatever it may be, it was the accident that adhered to it.

And we're getting into a kind of a built-back association that's gone pretty slow.

Yeah, they're trying to, the main point is, it's not the action of the President of the United States.

That's what we've got to get done.

And we can't let John Dean, with his self-serving,

memorandum or whatever he's got, you know, he's got his memorandum.

But you know what a guy'll do?

He'll write what he pleases.

And he remembers what he wants.

That's right.

And he can't go in there and raise a doubt about the president because, let us assume, she's not thinking, I was guilty as hell.

Let's assume.

Hey, I can't walk out and resign as president.

I can't do it.

I can't say the President of the United States trying to cover up a chicken shit thing like this.

I didn't try to.

I was trying to get it out.

I just had people get it out for me.

Dean should never raise, the only point, I don't think he should ever raise the bit of money with me at all anyway, but maybe, no, no, that was part of the story, part of the story.

Well, I understand about the delay between

You had to think this through.

You had to take steps.

So I'm not concerned with the delay for a very fundamental reason.

On the Marshall version, the 22nd remark, I said, John, go to camp.

They were out of hammers.

And I said, take a week up there.

You need some time.

Write me a full report.

It was at the end.

Then I went to camp.

That was in Connecticut.

Then I made my speech on March 28th, if you recall.

I was a little busy then.

I made my end-of-the-war speech.

Then I went on out to California and did the, you know, the salute to John Ford and all that sort of thing.

Came back from California.

And at the end of that, I saw John Dean again, and John Dean said I, that's when he said I just couldn't write the report.

I just told all of my attorneys everything.

He apparently was put on some very good fun with it.

U.S. Attorney, beginning April 6th.

April 6th, yeah, I think so.

Now, that was the same day he had that ugly kind of question in front of him that Jim Gantz, you know, this big fire in his locker room, I don't know if you can tell us about it, but that was a traumatic thing for him.

He was a fellow who was a very emotional person at the time.

He also did an accident.

So before he went to one of these deputies and decided he would not run, so he did

Yeah, he had to admit it, though.

So his lawyers started coming to him.

Sure, sure.

I suppose, you know, we would have been his lawyers if we had done the same thing.

I think he should have told us.

Oh, I think that's why he went on Saturday.

But he also, apparently, had went for the fact that the group had gone in on Saturday.

And we asked a week later.

Well, that was important.

But when he went, he didn't throw any spillage, I understand it.

He was over at the U.S. Attorney's office.

I think that's an attractive person.

I think his lawyers had been building on negotiating starting the 6th of April.

I don't know.

Lawyers started negotiating on the 6th of April.

I think that's right.

That's correct.

I don't know.

I'm not sure, but that's the way I... Then I had my meetings over here, and Dean saw me in the 15th, and that's when I think I put my arm around him and said, well, you know, I don't understand.

I mean, he came in on Sunday and told me...

Or Monday morning.

Then on Monday morning, I talked about his resignation.

He said, I won't do it unless, basically, he didn't say it that way, but he said, I'll be right my own.

He said, I'll resign at all curves.

I said, well, that's fair enough.

I said, if you think that we're not trying to hang anybody around here, I think you'll all have a chance to prove yourself.

And so I just let her ride.

Well, now, the main mission was exactly this, to prove to everyone that there was no knowledge by the president of any cover-up.

Wait a minute.

Knowledge is one thing.

I read the papers.

All right.

Go ahead.

What?

Did I find it?

You can't say that I didn't have knowledge of an allegation of cover-up.

That's right.

There was no approval of, no, that is the first that I heard, that is that they were thinking in terms of a cover-up, that didn't cover anything.

It was basically Dean saying on the 21st, go to the station and raise the business.

Well, that's really what I'm going against.

That's right.

And that I started to investigate.

By the way, March 21 is a co-op date where you could have ballots.

by him, I told him to write, and I did two independent investigations, by my own, and we went right to the heart of the matter.

Now before that, Mr. President, you said you were, I had this, I had this incident, I was trying to recall why, whether I had any notions about money passing away, you know, February 5th at the concert,

I don't know.

And I said, Mr. Winston, I don't recall that it was even in the papers that there was any such thing.

I was unaware of it.

I think in March the stories began to appear that Republican fundraisers were trying to raise money for the defendants.

So you might have, anybody could have surmised that completing cash reviews and stuff like that way back in July, July, August,

But the notion of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't know, but that's really, and that's with the White House, the notion that the White House was involved in some of it, but you'll already know that Baldwin and Levine knew about it and proved it on Deseret.

That couldn't come to your attention.

It did come to my attention.

One moment before, March 21 at the earliest, and I'm not sure Dean went that far, did he go that far in March 21, did he say that at that point Jehovah's Witnesses knew about it?

No, he did.

Oh, yes, he did.

So now you know this possibility.

And I went in and said, well, he said he had no intention at all that the money would be returned to the room.

It doesn't, see that's the problem.

Returning to LaRue's apartment in LaRue in the middle of the night.

Wrong.

I don't.

We don't.

We don't want to keep you out of this.

I'm not defending that.

I'm just simply saying that that's what I was told.

But the most important thing is that all this was

It was scary at the moment.

I guess it was good, I guess.

I mean, they were.

But no one, if you were protected from any knowledge of all this, as you say, you didn't know much of it.

It came in here, the 350,000 innocent.

I didn't know it was here.

I understand that.

I would have assumed that anyway, but I can tell you a question was, no.

After all, they were, let me correct that to an extent.

i knew that they were had some funds that were available for private policy and that could well have been there you know what i mean but i never heard anything about what we've got together because i wanted and it was never used except apparently they used twenty two thousand dollars once for an ad i didn't even know about that but the money came over here instantly brought a very simple model quite wise we didn't like people to know about tolls unless they were drawn and then we up in the

So he wanted some private polling and very wise and sensible things to do.

Then he got it on the way to a lieutenant.

And also I guess it didn't take too many because things got pretty good in them.

They need to.

That's right.

But now I recognize it.

I must say my name may show up here as a witness.

And I don't want to be an embarrassment.

You won't be.

What I'm hoping is that the

I want you to stay and I want you to be damn helpful, particularly on these points.

Let it all hang out.

That's it.

I don't know.

I don't know whether the whole plan is going to get covered in terms of dissipating the light on people.

I think we can get, I'm going to try to get Chappy Rose to help.

He'd be pretty good if we can.

If we can.

And I was hoping you'd come in.

You're so far removed, you're so tangential.

Well, I don't know.

I'm hoping so, and my lawyer feels so, and I'm not even sure that they're going to call me because it appears that they're not going to make that case against Bonaparte, John, and that's what it has to mean.

I think they could have decided that.

And it may be that I'm not in service at all.

Why would you leave that out, though, if they need to answer to... Well, I'm not... No, I'm just... No, I'm assuming that at the right time, I'd be called on that basis.

Well, Larry's on the record now.

I told that story.

I made that note.

I told it exactly as I remembered it.

And it was just as parenthetical, by the way, as the last kind of tangent.

Oh, and Gratian Dean sort of just said that we decided that Dick Moore ought to go off and raise some much money from that.

I said, you know, I don't know what he could have done.

Dick, we've got to anticipate he'll say everything.

We have got to just...

Basically, you know, if you understand, in this kind of a war now, if it comes to that, he's got to be, his credibility must be destroyed.

So, his credibility is going to be greatly, greatly, I mean, impaired by the fact that for nine months the President has been in this thing and didn't say anything.

He has total motivation to lie.

His whole defense has to be that Erlich wouldn't have called him in time.

That he was just not willing.

I understand that.

But I don't understand the lie about the president.

What is the lie about the president?

Because I don't understand what he did.

I don't understand what he did.

And first of all, it wasn't even a very effective lie.

What?

The two lies, the statements that you, as reported by Boots,

that he came in, showed the end of the indictments, and you and mother were all smiled, and that you congratulated him on his keeping the bill.

Not one word that pushed you, uh, that's, you were all, you were, so you were smiling.

Now, the fact is that he had just, he didn't do it on you, it was only in the White House with Bob and the parents.

That was all printed.

I didn't mean to keep the lid on them.

I just knew if you said, well, Johnny didn't buy it, then everybody thought it was right.

I'd congratulate you.

I had the money in my house as well.

Right.

So that one is a meaningless thing.

The other one, I'm not going to say it's totally funny.

Well, how about it doesn't work that way.

They don't say, John, go and ask the president to do grand clemency.

Shit.

They don't know how to do that, or what you would say if someone did.

I can play it.

And because of New Orleans, well, you know, that's the kind of thing.

We'll have to adjust at the time on the merits.

That's exactly what I said.

Of course.

I didn't say I'd never say it to John.

John never asked me.

Yeah.

And no promise of clemency was ever made in this thing.

I'll tell you.

Now, understand, if John Mitchell goes to jail, you know, I'll have some thoughts.

I'm not talking about what I'm going to do.

God damn it, you know what I mean.

Yes.

There are certain things to think about.

But am I going to say I'm promising John Mitchell to plant?

I'm going to say hell no, of course not.

So why the hell would I promise him to plant?

Now, Tulsa's credibility is getting a little bit co-opted.

He's got particularly that story about faking a tower, you know.

But Tulsa was the one who brought up the subject matter, not that other one.

would forget that because basically that was for him to say of him to say whether he did it and only at the recollection basically on that was so intentional that uh i don't know i don't know what motion has said or will say i'm not concerned about it because if he says that he ever discussed it he will only say the president said what you just said now

have to be considered a merit site.

Because people know that clemency is often raised.

I mean, why wouldn't they raise it?

We could do anything for these people.

And it's surprising that they didn't.

But the main point is, I did not authorize it.

And it came up against a man's wife.

That was the basic, for your own confidential information.

That was the only way to pull some race.

He said, by the way, you know, his wife has been killed and had all the shit and so forth and so on.

He's got these five kids and so forth.

I said, well, I said, those are matters you have to consider in these cases.

You know, John, we can't say anything about it, as I understand it.

That's exactly what it is.

No words to that.

That's a rather...

It's just one minute.

Exactly the way I got it.

I mean, it's just here, the conversation.

I don't think I thought of it.

I'm sure it was relayed.

It's just coming over.

But not this whole matter of...

So I didn't chat with you about anything.

But...

Need more?

Well, I don't know that we have a whole strategy about this here.

For example, we thought of doing something about it.

making the point that these hearings uh was going to jeopardize everybody's right to a fair trial but it's all double jeopardy to see all the men are going to see the uh thursday coming out of the don't like the airlines and just the events the questions you know the next day do you think you're going to have coming out of the seminary uh-huh it's just not right no and uh

exposure and... Home and abroad.

Right.

And the little digs always make him sound guilty.

And so if he has to testify and face infuriating in a crime, he's a goose.

I mean, it's totally wrong.

And also, the Senate process is not designed to be put on court by individuals of this sort.

The court, the Senate, in terms of this particular matter,

If Sirocco had any, they have, Judge Sirocco should enjoy the time from going ahead with hearings on the Watergate matter to the defendant's side of their trial date point.

We were just, I was talking to Lynn and Lon, and this is something I don't, we suggested this and that.

We did great stuff, essentially.

We talked about, couldn't we get the private lawyers to try to join the hearing, because that class couldn't get a fair trial if the hearings didn't go.

But here you have a little situation, a little building, and you get to know who is the man.

Someone should step up and say, well, maybe, maybe Harlem and Earth is a church.

Yeah.

I think you should, I think you should look into that.

I think you should get to maybe one or more of them.

It just takes a lot of respect to the church.

We know, for example, you put Dean on with the community.

He's supposed to do that.

The main church is Harlem and Earth at a time that they may be entitled to.

They may not.

They may be, but, you know, conspirators.

One of their non-indictable conspirators, which is just the same thing.

To realize that, my God, their chances of a fair trial are destroyed.

Dean is a thing that has done his dirt with hearsay, and I'll change your bet you want to look at that, too.

It goes everywhere.

I don't know if it's Michigan or anywhere else.

they watergate the vengeance of Ustino and what we don't love about these magazines.

I know.

You see these pictures of them all.

I know.

They have a one-fifth chance of how well you'll come.

So that's an issue that we have going for us.

And it all pertains to the main issue.

But the main issue is the vengeance.

I hope so, but I, not the man, no, no, but this officer, I've got some things to do for this country and the world, and I cannot have this kind of thing.

Do it, Dick, it's wrong, too, God damn it.

I just want to follow.

Sure, I went through this ritual with Deacon with regard to the thing, but what, do you suppose you want to do all this, but the goddamn thing wouldn't work, and also it's wrong.

Well, I mean, it's the point I was trying to prove, that it's stupid and wrong, which is basically why they fall in love.

Oh, I know, I know.

Well, I've been writing to the president.

Now, he, did he, did he go back to all these things of how the fund got started?

You know, John Nixon said, that's about a period, according to the league,

that the author of this page.

Pretty early in the day.

No, he didn't go to that one.

He didn't go to that one.

To the extent that, you see, he is what we see as a White House connection from that one.

The fact is that he got the movement, it seems to me, into an extracurricular role here.

How's that?

Well, just out of those two meetings, where he was a little involved, he began to be drawn into other things.

He says to me, he says to you, he said to you that

I don't want to see him hurt either.

I don't know what he thought of this film.

He was a, but I don't think Holger heard it when we're in it all stuff.

That's what I think.

Any more than me?

Well, you're different.

But my point is, I think that he thought he was a pretty smart ass kid.

He was working with Franklin Mitchell quite a bit.

Yeah.

That's what he was supposed to do.

That's good.

I know the logistics of doing whatever work you do to get all the facts.

I remember this sort of complaint in there about how can we try this case and go to the manager?

How can we handle this situation?

But we don't know the facts.

For example, I had said I'd like to see, you know,

But I thought it would be important to see when people saw you and get out dates and tax notes so that we know.

And he said, well, we don't know how to get a look at those problems.

I don't want to look at that.

I don't want him to get in that way.

OK, good.

That's fair.

They're going to get what they're doing.

All the things that I said, I mean, my logs and so forth, those things I'm not turning over to anybody.

The president's logs, I regard them as the most sacrosanct.

Well, I have a solicitor's bill.

But I still think that if you told me that the night of the flight, and what he told me, and I recall that he then proposed it, which you don't do, you know, you don't mess with the President for all this time.

And then you immediately, with a lacquer, you said, of course, John, if you have things that you don't commit tomorrow morning, you're not committing things Thursday or Saturday.

They were very wholesome, great, that March 21, 21 sequence.

Except the only thing is that he will interpret the ending of that, where I sent him to Camp David, to say that I, that he had informed me of it, and that I did not do anything to fire all of the nerve.

No, no, no.

He wasn't after them then, no.

Can't later, no.

He was still...

I don't know what he wanted you to do, but... No.

He didn't offer anything.

He wanted, that's why, that's the point.

That's why I said write a report.

I said like that.

I mean, what should we do?

And he's the counsel.

He had the back.

I said put it down, let me see it.

I don't know if it's even important, but it was my impression that the 23rd was a win.

It was about two days later.

The camera's in front of his house, and I suggested that he go to camp.

Well, I said, get up there where you could think clearly.

He couldn't work at home.

He couldn't work in his office.

I said, get to camp.

You can stay as long as you want.

And write it on for me.

That was my own order for him to get a job.

And he just wasn't able to do it there.

He wasn't able to do it.

exactly what it was that he wandered around.

You know, and frankly probably wrote his own defense.

I think he did 43 things.

I think he put a nice thing, I don't know.

But I think Mr. Silvey should have put all that out.

Put out his memorandum of conversation with me, which is terribly, he shouldn't have.

I can't say I can't have the ending with the president that's involved, that's going to get to the bottom of the crime should be out, and I'm not going to stop it.

I'm not going to stop it.

Well, because a lot of it is good.

The most fearful thing here in this country is, it is a fearful thing, is the fact, hearing from you,

I mean, I knew it was true, but it's nice to hear it, and that also means it's true.

But you didn't have any clue in any of this nonsense.

Until roughly, I don't know, until the 25th of May.

Except when you could guess, but we didn't know.

But that was in the White House.

The only inkling that I possibly had, I have to say, Tom Patmos, bless his dear soul, came in to see me.

about the ambassador to Greece, Henry Toscar, when he came.

And, uh, and he said to me, he said, you know, I'm having a job.

I said, well, thank you very much.

So, I just saw that it was on his, uh, I didn't even show any men, men, men, at the festival.

But, on the other hand, Dean was, Dean, in a conversation quite a while, he was aware of what happened.

was healthy potential.

He was aware of that.

And I remember that as part of the conversation.

That's right.

This was raising.

They had to keep raising money for this whole project.

So it happens to pivot in.

That's not what I don't know about.

I don't know what they're putting here to help on.

You know what he was doing.

But none of this, none of this.

The essential point is that none of this was known to you.

You had no reason to suspect it.

And as I say, I wasn't busy the way you were.

But I didn't... We were talking about hearings and executive privilege and getting out the stuff from Sullivan about what the Democrats had done.

You remember me talking about that and all that kind of stuff.

Believe me.

And you were so right to urge me to come in to see you.

Well, I'll tell you that what I recognized was that it was going to come anyway.

It would have been amazing.

I didn't want to fight it.

I mean, there was no way to go with it.

What were we going to do?

Were we going to go down the road?

You had Hunt out there.

You've got Hunt and Liddy.

You've got McCord and all the rest.

Of course it's going to come out.

So get the goddamn thing out.

And make sure we're all going to get Magruder.

Magruder is whatever.

But I was getting at him and said, you should be sure to follow the facts.

I had to tell you, and so it happened.

So we're not in a position to say something wasn't so.

Michael Thompson?

Yeah.

You're dead wrong, John.

I didn't think I'd say it.

You can tell me.

See, I knew that he didn't talk to me about it.

I didn't know, really, his point with it, John.

A lot of people think he said it, John.

I was just hoping that...

I think they told you.

Yeah, and I was hoping that...

I think that was too frank for the judges at Canada.

But any of that, now they're gone.

And now that's their problem.

I really can't call that in now.

They've got their own case to probably take.

And they call me every day.

I asked each of them, did they know, you know, I did ask them.

I asked them, you know, I mean, they said, no.

God damn, what more can you do with it?

And it works for you.

What more can you do with it?

But I think that the whole notion of trying to, you know, die, and then how much did you know, and then that's an issue which I think we can win on.

We can win on that.

We can turn people around.

And also, they're asking for, one, let's look at the most demanding part of the question here, too, which I think is going to come around a little bit.

Some of these young folks who didn't feel like somebody was going to do it

There'll be a little sympathy.

The result is you didn't know.

Maybe people say you should have.

I should have.

The answer is...

I admitted that in my broadcast.

I took the responsibility.

I said I didn't know.

And I didn't know.

And they were so fond of the failure of the German wall kind of thing.

Oh, you're going to come out?

All right.

And it'll be sooner than you think.

but well it'll be a long time my point is we've got to survive well of course we've got to remember that the dame thing though is there's got to be a strategy to deal with him whatever he does now it's got to be brutal and we've got to we've got to have our we've got to know i don't know because i don't know what he's doing about it

Because I don't know what memorandums he might have, ever, between him and all of them around him.

That would, you know, would that happen around here?

I wonder if either were written him enough.

I don't think so, I'm sure.

I don't think so, no.

By the way, I think it's vital to know, because what you're taking out of eating will never be good, successfully.

You can see that again.

It's credibility that's destroyed.

Otherwise, it's exactly what you went through in the Hiss case.

You basically moved your head to heaven, finally.

It has to be.

Because we can't do it.

We can't use the FBI to help us.

We can't use, you know, develop for any private good against the world power if we don't do anything about that.

Well, we'll try to get some other people involved in this.

We've got Len working, but we can help.

We'll try to get Chappie Rose and two or three other big gun lawyers in here.

I don't know.

If you're something to be president, it feels so helpless to deal with such a damnable, I mean, criminal rival.

That's what it is.

I mean, I wouldn't know.

I mean, you know, I said to you on the air, if I was 68, that I'm sure that we're going to sit down with the president-elect, but the president wants to be president, but he doesn't want to make it easy for him.

Yeah.

And I find now, now it's the president who doesn't want to make it easy for him.

Either they're going to survive this, or they're going to.

I'm a better man than Morgan.

I'm just gonna... Well, you can do it.

I'm a better than the Lender.

Just enter into your...

I didn't think so.

I just leave it here.

I'll walk over here.