Nixon, Ziegler & Haig on Watergate investigation and Press briefings

NixonHow are, how're our companions? Sure. It's going to be good long period one of these days.
ZieglerThey have all right tone. Yeah, I think so.
ZieglerTone of things in the attitude so forth [unintelligible]. They got [unintelligible] this morning.
ZieglerI said, well, they said look up look here well the August statement says that the President has heard an investigation and satisfied that the information [unintelligible] I know the White House was false, so forth and so on. It wasn't hostile, that's what, but I thought it was worthwhile making.
NixonWell, they God, they keep asking that question. Don't touch that. Did you? They keep asking it and basically, well, they know damn well that Dean never made a statement. It's just a damn piece of nonsense anyway.
ZieglerOf course, Dean is coming the other way so I kinda did Dean in a little bit today.
NixonWhat did he Dean did on this?
ZieglerWell, Dean said, that's their story, well,
NixonThat's right.
ZieglerBut, I didn't take him on that name.
NixonNo, I don't think we should yet, no. It's not yet time.
ZieglerThen uh we kept the house that's fine. It's uh, let's keep going.
NixonErvin make a statement?
ZieglerAnd Baker.
NixonNow
ZieglerI talked to Abplanalp this morning, and he said uh he said, "Why yet?" He said, "Frank DeMarco said that they would lay it out." Well, I don't know who should do that. DeMarco's putting together a rundown this morning and he can say again, as he has
NixonI'd just go that way. Get that perspective.
ZieglerYeah.
ZieglerThe, they're pressing for a press conference. I said there's no way it had time set.
NixonHow did you express that? You don't preach at them?
ZieglerNo, no, I just- I just recognized there's a serious [unintelligible]
NixonYou should go off on a tangent. Won't you do that while you're in the office?
NixonWhy, why the hell stuck in? What the hell business, that they would represent the press? They'd just say the President's, uh, you know, in hiding and all that crap. Now that what they say?
ZieglerThat's what they're trying to say.
Nixon[unintelligible]
ZieglerWell, look here see if I can get to Ruckelshaus. Ruckelshaus look there didn't They said, did the President know that the files were here? I said, yeah, which is correct.
ZieglerUh well uh did the White House, when they knew about the the Judge Byrne thing uh did uh they want him to fall? Did Ruckelshaus know that that might create bad [unintelligible]?
NixonWh- what do you mean by that?
ZieglerIn other words, what Byrne asked for, materials.
ZieglerThe Ruckelshaus, yeah Ruckelshaus done fine.
NixonIt was fine.
ZieglerWait.
NixonSure, Ruckelshaus.
ZieglerThe tone is bad. I got to thinking, this is not criticism of anybody, this is just, but I'm just wondering.
ZieglerAnd maybe we shouldn't take a look and pull me out of the briefings.
NixonNo.
ZieglerBecause uh [unintelligible] I am you know, after all, I've had years they respond when they respond to me and so
NixonThey will the last year.
ZieglerNo, I uh I'm not saying that I don't want to do it. I'm talking about an attitude or tone here. If we shouldn't shift the whole briefing process. Let's face it, though.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerI am sort of a symbol. Not a negative symbol, I've got personal relationships.
ZieglerA symbol of of of uh of evasiveness.
NixonYeah, well, they say it. They say it because we, because you can't answer the damn questions.
ZieglerI know that, but I get, but the overall strategy, see,
NixonYeah.
Ziegleris the the whole part of the lost strategy, see.
ZieglerMight be worth while making a change now. Herb, in all due respect to Herb, he can't, he couldn't do it.
NixonWhy?
ZieglerHe could not do it this morning.
NixonNo, God.
ZieglerI mean, just, he would, he's a good guy, but he, they would've killed him.
NixonThat's right. They'd chew him all up.
ZieglerUh now who could we put in? Who could?
ZieglerUh I'm talking to Connally about this this afternoon.
NixonDid you? Oh, you said I will.
ZieglerIt might not be a bad idea, in getting in- in other words, at this at this week Yeah. at this crucial time, I think we have to do as much as we can to appear to want to provide information
NixonYes.
Zieglerand to be open with the press. Uh
Zieglerand do it in a way that uh may indicate a little bit of a change.
ZieglerI'm not so sure that's the right answer.
NixonRon, the only thing about the brief- your briefings. You do it better than anybody else. You just hold the steer. If we've had a guy that worked on some of the hand centers of that thing, he could do it as well. And uh I didn't want it to uh you know, in the press
Nixonwell run, they're they're not going to get him, but I don't think we ought to have person who just dragged down the picture all that way.
ZieglerAll right.
Nixonabout this stuff. Let's let Let's the committee go. Let Dean's uh whatever.
NixonAs a matter of fact, I did say that uh why didn't you, can the first congress get on [unintelligible]
NixonWhy do that? [unintelligible] the grand jury's likely to, in two or three weeks,
Nixonwell, it won't be, wait till your questions come, Ron, next. In a real, in a real way.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonSoon after they've acted, I can walk out there and I can say, "Now, what are you What did you call it?" Bullshit. We'll know that after they've acted.
NixonYou know, and place the blame on them, for sure.
ZieglerNow in so far as tone is concerned I don't think
ZieglerI don't think, Ron, risk a change.
NixonNo.
ZieglerAnd that's why. I think we ought to just like you do, stay with her and do Look here, the foul up every generation, do what's due. Uh they're quite weak. And whether we say
Zieglerit uh you know you got quite a turnout there. Hard to get anything else on the story yesterday. Don't uh Don't misunderstand me. I don't really
NixonI understand that. Fine. No, no, no, no. I don't trust you, but I thought about, look, everybody who's worried about somebody else doing the briefing, there's nobody in this damn White House who could do the briefing.
ZieglerAbsolutely.
NixonSee there was a time when Ehrlichman was here, who could have put in a hot potato. But uh who do you have? Is there anybody else?
NixonCan't. Never. Could Price? Never.
NixonUrgent. Never. This isn't that kind of man around here. This is a warrant.
ZieglerWell.
NixonAnd then the the other thing, you back off on the briefs.
ZieglerThen that's creates a symbol of itself.
NixonI think there's less of a symbol by you, than they wanted, you know. I don't think you should brief so often.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonI think you can change that then. In other words, I think maybe you could have uh Warren [unintelligible]
Nixonand Warren could do the regular briefings, and you only come out on the big ones. Warren could do it.
NixonLet's see. You can get into a routine thing [unintelligible] so the damn thing is down. If you show a real interest in the story and they'll buy it.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonWell, that would be a story. I just don't want you there. Of course, that's what we want. I just don't want them to constantly question you.
ZieglerYeah.
Nixonand relax.
ZieglerHow are they [unintelligible]?
ZieglerWell, I guess the press aren't good on that. [crosstalk] You know that the president Bullshit.
NixonUh uh listen. It's not about tonight. No, I'm not referred to. I'm talking about
NixonLet them say. Let them say. Very little of that is ever said. [unintelligible] is ever said.
NixonActually, if you open up a press conference, it's 90 percent [unintelligible]
NixonUh, you find this. That's just in another period. Like, like at all. Today uh, Henry was uh,
Nixon[unintelligible] terribly upset with the Scotty Reston column. So, it's Seymour Hersh, and it's turned to be back to back. In the end, Al, or you, or somebody's tapped for political purposes, such as that, and they got something before.
ZieglerRight.
ZieglerTrue. Unsure. Unsure.
NixonYou know they've been raving about all of that, that Ziegler was damned about it and all that. Goddamn, it's been happening before, you know, it's unbelievable.
ZieglerI take my remarks from that time, almost to the letter, and my spirited defense, I'm glad I did that. I wouldn't have fought it any other way.
NixonYou're just trying to take him off the hook.
ZieglerThat's right, in other words, I I'm not saying I wouldn't I wouldn't raise this kind of a search warrant column, but it's likely to say, "Oh yes, you came back." or something. We didn't have anything then.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerI don't think we should bring I don't think we could bring it in. But I do think this, I do think that you could rather than have more briefings, just follow the alternate day, have a cabinet officer brief on a particular subject.
NixonRight.
ZieglerThe briefing today will be such-and-such, and you brief three times a week. Why don't we start that?
NixonWell, the only problem there is a cabinet officer will get peppered with the Watergate questions.
ZieglerNo, no, he will not answer them.
NixonOf course then, well, let me think this through. You like, but- or Warren, Warren can answer the Watergate questions. Warren should be put into this.
ZieglerYeah, Warren is good, he's, uh, been there a long time, and he'll just- he'll just find a way to be actually out of the briefings. But I think what has I don't think you should be in them.
NixonHere again, yeah. Actually, you can just go in and get rid of it.
ZieglerRight. And that's expensive. I don't think that has to be that way at the center. I'm trying to get there. [unintelligible] shit.
NixonShut up, bickering.
ZieglerIt sure is obnoxious, it's nothing to do with me, but it's angry situations, angry people.
NixonWhy in the hell, for example, were the goddamn files brought over here? Did the- Did they meet Sullivan's story in this thing? Goddamn, that's the truth. Sullivan's—
ZieglerYes, sir.
NixonListen, frankly, I didn't order them over here. I didn't order the goddamn things over here. Sullivan brought those things over here.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonAnd, frankly, between you and the postman, follow this. Frankly, frankly—
Nixonwell, I can't even recall. But I might have, you know what I mean, earlier, I might have said, "Hey, bring those over," than have those, you know, but I don't think he ever did, you understand. But anyway, nobody's ever going to say that.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonWhich you know what I mean? The whole point is, why, the goddamn people, what's been implied in the goddamn- in your answer. To my knowledge, I had never heard of the goddamned files, had never been into them. And there they are, you see.
ZieglerSee, I can only back Sullivan's word.
NixonThat's had nothing to do with that. And there's Sullivan's path. Mr. President, let me ask you about another thing. Rebozo's house was, uh,
NixonI was disappointed [unintelligible] you came here.
ZieglerAgain we have
NixonWe hit We're quite strong in that, didn't you, Ron?
ZieglerI went out as strong as the sources held it, but, uh, the restrictions listen to me again. But, uh, I'll pursue it more if you would like me to. I am.
NixonWhat were what were we meant to do?
ZieglerMr. President, sure is hell.
NixonYeah.
NixonYou did, all right. You should not have you should not read that crap from the White House. Those who were still back there were in the middle of it. They were [unintelligible] they were excellent subjects. You had talked to the press secretary for a couple Democrats.
NixonThe names, the whole thing would suggest that these people go to, to Moscow, [crosstalk] hey.
Ziegler[crosstalk] not Democratic.
NixonWhat's that word? Subject.
ZieglerI used it, left it blank. But also where is the person who rustled his way into the Oval Office?
NixonBullshit.
Ziegler[unintelligible] you know.
NixonYeah. What Sullivan's story did, right?
ZieglerYes, it was.
NixonDid the did the Did anybody Did anybody raise on the house story saying, how do they know that, they asked you again, how to deny that again? No one, no one had to know.
ZieglerNo, I don't
ZieglerNo, I didn't get that. That whole tone has totally changed now. Uh, they they they were most interested today in Daniel Ellsberg issue.
NixonMm-hmm.
ZieglerAnd, uh, it's an issue which has, you know, a very high emotional sweep that was that way last week.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerAnd it's an issue instead of having these daily, they'll have some of these.
NixonRight, good.
ZieglerWe can trust them. That's true. The question should be decided, you know, we had had some foundation.
ZieglerPay for me. What's taking my time is trying to find out all these, uh, questions that come up tomorrow. But anyway, this took place over a period.
NixonThey want to—
ZieglerThey want to know about
NixonNow that Abplanalp and Rebozo—
ZieglerNo, no, Abplanalp and Rebozo, they'll bring Rebozo into this.
NixonWhy?
ZieglerWell, Abplanalp was, you know, just a question about Abplanalp. You know, they said,
Ziegler"No, no, Abplanalp is on the paper today." I referred to Rebozo on it. Rebozo is on it in a personal relationship, not a
Nixonfinancial.
ZieglerNot financial.
NixonOkay.
NixonNo, I mean, Abplanalp and Rebozo both have money, and they they're in that category.
ZieglerThat's right, but Abplanalp and the hole, you know, there's articles pointing that out, see. Abplanalp is the only co-buyer
NixonYeah.
Zieglerof, uh, uh, well whatever it is. Any any reference to Rebozo is not as co-buyer, but Rebozo's, uh, uh, association is simply with Abplanalp on a personal basis not financial. Abplanalp,
NixonAbplanalp, by the way, you see the worried Abplanalp, I talked to him this morning.
ZieglerYeah, first of all, Abplanalp has no business business. You know, Abplanalp is 100% owner of his company, I believe.
ZieglerSo, he know- has no SEC [crosstalk] problem.
Nixon[crosstalk] Yeah.
ZieglerHe's audited, though, every year. Yeah. So, uh, he has no,
NixonYeah.
ZieglerNow, that's an issue we shouldn't have then.
NixonYeah. Well, and yet, they
Ziegler[unintelligible]
NixonThey
Zieglerdon't trust it.
NixonThey don't trust it.
ZieglerIf you try to clear stuff, and they insist on putting it out,
NixonYou can blow that into anything you want. I would do that.
NixonWhat I don't think I know we're in this crisis, defense of the moment, that's that's all. I understand that. My role, today. Not about tomorrow, but today.
ZieglerNo, I don't think so, but today I thought to myself
NixonThey are here to kill things.
ZieglerRon, it's gotta be rough this way, so.
ZieglerAnd keeps saying this [unintelligible] We have to turn away.
ZieglerToday was a good day, instead of 100%, we're finding half the questions
Nixonon this damn Watergate.
ZieglerWatergate,
NixonAll right.
Zieglerpartly just because the it's off edge. Now, we've got to find ways to diminish it. Near the tension is not on the President. We were dealing, well, uh, last week with questions President. Yeah.
NixonWell, in other words, the question was raised, "How much did the President know?"
ZieglerThat's right, now we're moving away from that, see, because of people are talking about CIA [unintelligible] and all of this.
NixonAnd FBI.
ZieglerAnd FBI. And they're not on substance.
NixonRight.
ZieglerNow, why did I reference to, uh, my reference to
NixonYeah.
Zieglermy opening opening part 30. Uh, I'm glad I did that. I don't want to point fingers, like you shouldn't go out to the briefing,
ZieglerYeah, no. I'm glad. try to drag the whole process, but just talking about, in your private briefings, yeah, the best way to handle it, it's probably just to be changing our techniques.
NixonA little bit.
ZieglerUnsee it a little bit, so it
NixonYeah, loosening up a little bit, maybe go about three times a week.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonNow I see there's an open briefing being held today, like uh, Dan Rather talking about the President, the services,
Nixonhuh?
ZieglerPress conference?
ZieglerA press conference?
NixonWhy do you think they're holding it back?
ZieglerI still I still think Dean who you're dealing with, or they think that there's a whole lot more things to come. I don't know who they're talking to.
NixonYeah. I don't know who they could be talking to, can't be you.
ZieglerExcept the usual blacks that are saying, there was a cover-up.
NixonOh, all right. Well, so the press is found in Washington first.
ZieglerVery well.
ZieglerAbsolutely. And also that the issue at the beginning was shut up on national security grounds.
NixonWhich, I would—oh incidentally,
ZieglerYeah.
Nixonwith regard to the wiretaps, Ron, I'm sure Bob had forgotten, yet, me. I hadn't forgotten that they broke out for instance on trouble there, at nine o'clock.
ZieglerYou did?
NixonI don't know what it was. But it checked out, see? Because, but I knew of at least seven.
ZieglerWell you see, I think—
Nixonthere's another piece of information. They're all—this kind of thing has been done by, you know, whatever you might point out. You know what Johnson did to the Vietnamese embassy?
ZieglerOh, they bugged inside the—
NixonAnd Chennault.
ZieglerYeah, Chennault.
NixonChennault.
ZieglerRight.
NixonAnd did anybody question it?
ZieglerLook, guy had tapped everybody.
NixonCareful.
ZieglerBut I—but as I say, John Ehrlichman's whole thing is his knowledge, you know, prior to what was told, what was told to him by, they told him that, you know, about a month ago, I believe,
NixonMm-hmm.
ZieglerJohn told somebody that was his recollection. You know what concerns me, sir?
NixonYes, sir.
ZieglerFirst of all, in having the discussions we've had here in the White House about some of these things, I get the impression that first of all, [sighs] they're not terrible things.
NixonNo.
ZieglerSecondly, I think the bother to John, by what they hear received from witnesses, and the other thing, and so, is as if they were terrible things. Why are they acting, because we are, in any event, going to testify to the absolute total truth on it.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerWe are allowing steps taken in a national security sense, no matter who likes the damn steps or no, but I think they can be defended. Allowing these types of actions to create the impression
Nixonthat we were a bunch of—
Zieglerthat we were in, and that we were a bunch of wrongdoers.
NixonI know.
ZieglerParticularly the press, definitely, we have to boldly face this. There, if it really comes to it all,
NixonI know this. I know.
Zieglerthey are men like Caulfield and like Liddy, and men right back to the White House, who got this situation where it is, right there.
NixonRight.
ZieglerTaking an example, what Bob and John were concerned about when this talk began being built for, well, they weren't concerned about, uh, illegality or anything like that. So what they were worried about, because they were worried about good God, if they get in the FBI files, they were worried about, uh, mind business, they entered into town about the Walter's thing or whatever it was.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerAlthough, they, like anybody, look, and they, it is impossible to even say what they thought. No, and I'm sure this is what was on their mind.
NixonOh, yeah.
ZieglerThey had a very rightful concern
Nixonabout—
Zieglerencroachment of presidential files,
NixonRight.
Zieglerwhich should never happen, sir.
NixonRight.
ZieglerBut in the actions that were taken, in the actions that have been taken, and the positions that are being worded, they're creating somewhat the area of a cover-up, in terms of the press and the press and every other conference and all these things,
NixonYeah.
Zieglerthat suggest that behind that barrier, there is much more, in terms of the President, in terms of the president's campaigns, than it really is.
NixonYeah. And, either that, or you mean, the fact that Bob and John, uh, I couldn't agree more. But let me say this, Ron, we have to maintain absolute barriers with regard to presidential papers.
ZieglerTotally.
NixonAbsolute. I can't let them go out there and never and never and never and never. Anything of that sort, that I'm sure can out.
ZieglerRight.
NixonWe are strong on that one. Ziegler: Yeah, the world has backed that up. But tell me, then,
Zieglerconversations I was the middle man, what are you going to do about that?
NixonI'm not concerned so much about future questions. Now, what do you feel about— I think more faintly about what our reply to it is. Straight forward. What, what?
ZieglerWell, I'm thinking, sir, of what's ahead of us with the with the—
NixonErvin section of people who want us to bring somebody back for, uh,
ZieglerWell, this testimony today,
Nixonuh, so once McCord goes to jail which is essentially to silence him, [clears throat] see, then following that, Haldeman finally got a break. He said they were trying to find out whether the guy was or wasn't a Communist.
ZieglerRight.
NixonAnd then when they had the crate break-in,
Zieglerin the month of October.
NixonIn October.
ZieglerAnd I told them. [cough]
NixonThey have no other answer. I asked Peterson how could you get— I asked how do you get at him? Did they do all this, and I just don't remember, and I told you at the time that Haldeman was all mad the facts had just cleared up.
ZieglerRight.
NixonSo, yesterday I put that forward in the in the— told them that the people around Haldeman were getting into a hell of a—
ZieglerRight, Caulfield's name.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerJohn must have known that before. I mean Caulfield had to run to John. Dean must know.
NixonDean knew because, well, because Ehrlichman swore to it. Huh? Krogh knew it was Caulfield.
ZieglerMarch. Oh, I knew that in that period, March, April. I know that. Oh, yeah.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerWhen we were doing our own investigation.
NixonWell, you investigated and we might have been sure shortly before, you know what I mean? Dean and walking things around the dash. You know what I mean?
ZieglerSure.
NixonHe never came in and told the whole story to Ehrlichman, but they knew damn well, Peterson and Ehrlichman. So, well, keep their mouth shut.
ZieglerDean's problem is he's Dean is trying to protect Dean. That's his problem.
NixonHe's he's guilty of the circle indictments if it's Mitchell and Mardian's, Dean is, Mitchell is.
ZieglerDean, unless they get an immunity deal, which I doubt that they will get. At least subornation of perjury.
NixonAnd I think it's grand jury indictment side on circling in connection with that? I did. I knew
ZieglerGrand jury.
NixonGrand jury indictment. That's why Connelly couldn't be here. It's a good chance to talk to you. The prosecutor's, you see they had fine, fine grand jury indictment. That would be one hell of a case to win. That's right.
ZieglerThat's why the Peterson force was so good on that. [laughter] Because of the testimony. That's why they're afraid to ring that, and
NixonWhen I say hang tight and
ZieglerI would guess 3:30, 3:30, Mr. President. And and and the media is raging with almost, you might say, psychotic agony to get everybody down here. Let's keep the, let's keep this emphasis if we can.
NixonSay who?
ZieglerErvin and the this this emphasis is slightly on the personal side. Can't come along, they're talking to other people, they tell those people. Then this will all blow over.
NixonGood.
ZieglerDean. Dean is sticking with this now.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerWait this week. This will be damn difficult. Dean is in trouble.
NixonWho is? The grand jury expects Dean to be out?
ZieglerI think John Dean understands.
NixonDean's lawyer told Haldeman's lawyers.
ZieglerYes, I'm sure the tape maker.
NixonThey've all had guesses, you know.
ZieglerI know.
NixonHe swore, his word was, Dean said [unintelligible] who knows what [unintelligible] Christmas story.
ZieglerHe could put on a hell of a bluff.
NixonAll, how is the, what did they say? Yeah, but he's always on the bluff. His his hair does not hide this. Huh? His hatred does not hide this.
ZieglerHe thinks it, he thought it was completely in- He goes, and the President didn't know anything about it.
NixonHe did, huh?
ZieglerDefinitely.
NixonWhy would he feel that?
ZieglerBecause he knows you and he's been around more than anyone else in the [unintelligible]
NixonAnd he had his own problems.
ZieglerHe feels Watergate's double talk, insurance game, merchan-
Nixonmerchants game. It does not go up far.
ZieglerAs much as [unintelligible] stuff. He's talking about the Court. He just had [unintelligible]
NixonWell, if that's true, why the hell did Frank DeMarco, Frank had has an interview in that, Frank.
ZieglerWell, Frank is star struck, you know, he wants his name told. He was very complimentary of the President.
NixonWhat did he say?
ZieglerHe just said, I'm not a party to that. He had inquired of the President. In terms of the President, in terms of the presidency, he said, I'm just a speck in the cosmos. He said, I'm- I just happened to be the owner of the [unintelligible] should come out in the interview in tomorrow's interview.
ZieglerAnd he said, well, I- I didn't know one of the hardest working more dedicated man I've ever known.
ZieglerHe said, as far as Ehrlich- he said Ehrlichman was something else. He said-
NixonWho said that?
ZieglerEhrlichman. He said Ehrlichman was something else.
NixonWhat's he mean by that?
ZieglerI suspect, for that reason, Connally,
Zieglerand one of these guys,
Zieglerthese guys- [crosstalk]
Zieglerbecause he gets people to talk in forthright and tell them what they think, if he's hard hit, he provides insult.
ZieglerBecause
Zieglerthere was an agency and that he was doing these things,
Zieglerand asked him,
Zieglerand he had not participated in doing that.
NixonDid the White House press pull in?
ZieglerThis- this was an interview that I did with a reporter, uh, yesterday.
NixonI eat late. He's lunch very late with the state dinners. Because I normally don't eat dinners 6:30 or so.
NixonAnother for the not fool into the person I am. I try. Blonde women and rocks. Both is [unintelligible]
ZieglerWell, he says, bet you well, but he's not going to be on. It's Buzzhardt's doing a good job. Well, everyone is [unintelligible].
NixonYeah, they're all fighting for the [unintelligible]
ZieglerI'd like to steal it today, since morning will do it.
NixonYeah.
NixonThat was a good piece. That really was an excellent thing. I mean you gave it to day in and day out. They all took this position for four and a half years.
ZieglerAnd that attitude. And they fashioned those attitudes. And in fact, he was telling- maybe he was telling
NixonI don't know.
NixonIt isn't that way, Ron. Word cannot be in. If you all panicked by that stuff, well, then you have a war. Look at it that way.
ZieglerI understand, but look what that thing is about, but it screws that.
NixonI mean, there's not too much of it. But, no fight with, uh, that you realize it. I know it.
ZieglerI don't think so. I think that the- the- the attitude of the frayed, that it'll- I mean, I don't think they want to see, for instance,
NixonMass media doesn't. Mass media doesn't.
NixonHuh?
ZieglerYeah.
NixonWe had साइलेंट [silent], tonight, I guess, that if they're on, then show the friends who look on the church, you see what the
NixonThere you go.
ZieglerI don't worry too much about this. I just don't want people to think I-
NixonI quite agree. It's just that, uh-
Nixonif you think you're holy, then why not get up and press them?
NixonWhy do you got to go to the black part?
ZieglerWell, I, as I said, this morning,
ZieglerI am, could truly wrong, at 4:00 whenever we can get it.
NixonDo you think it's going to be today?
ZieglerThat's what they asked for.
NixonI hope that you get
ZieglerI mean, you don't have to talk about something like that, you know. Make damn clear, but that is what I mean, you know, everything, everything awful.
NixonYes, nothing from me, except, you know what I mean?
ZieglerAll right.
NixonAll right.
Unknown[whispering]
NixonFine. Yes. Well, let them find [unintelligible]
Unknown[whispering]
NixonYou say that the talks about you say they take their head of the stop by part plus we'll choke you to death?
ZieglerWell, the leadership kill, well.
NixonOkay.
ZieglerI'm sorry. Okay.
ZieglerI think if no one risks gets down to you know, what are you saying? You know, one of these courts, you see, the beings of these people is what we're after, damn it, to get after this.
NixonThe only way that they could get at is better to go to, yeah.
Unknown[whispering]
NixonNow how do you phrase all?
Unknown[whispering]
ZieglerWell, tell him that Sam Dash, Archibald Cox, [whispering] and Dash that Dash
NixonHell, they are that way, Cox. Cox is as back in as hell.
NixonI mean in a setting like that.
ZieglerWell, I’ve been hit Dash, the criminal press,
Ziegleruh-uh,
Zieglerapologizing.
ZieglerPressing him off for saying it.
ZieglerThey have no dam- they have no right to investigate your staff. We, yeah. We.
NixonAll right. Did you get to the Helms thing yet?
ZieglerWater?
Unknown[whispering]
NixonWait up. Yeah. Yeah.
Unknown[whispering]
NixonYou can stick, let's stick tight.
NixonWell, it's an issue, but I think we're just That issue, we will fight on. Uh, would you agree on?
ZieglerYeah. On those.
NixonTry not [unintelligible]
Unknown[whispering]
ZieglerI'm sorry.
Unknown[whispering]
NixonI wonder what Moses- god damn it, all the-
Unknown[whispering]
NixonIsn't he?
ZieglerYeah.
NixonWhat is he doing here, Sean?
NixonWell, the main thing is you he certainly definitely knows that he's not to stick on that I did not know anything about it. He is I know damn well about it. He that who is this that got that? Oh, he thinks Colson may have trig-
ZieglerYeah.
Nixonthat's how that happened. Because he would never attribute it to you. Never. Never. And who were What did they What did the- He said there was a talk show in [unintelligible]
Unknown[whispering]
ZieglerYeah.
Unknown[whispering]
NixonOkay.
NixonHe did call it bungled burglary. Is that what he meant?
ZieglerDid-
NixonDid I call Gray MacGregor too?
ZieglerI don't think so.
NixonAll right. I don't see what the great fight is, okay.
NixonWell, the the other the bizarre thing seems to be Colson.
ZieglerYeah, I'd better get some fast.
NixonFine.
ZieglerAnything else?
NixonOkay. Bye.
NixonGoing to California not being able to talk to, I don't know what the hell [unintelligible]
Zieglertalking about John Ehrlichman sitting in his office, his home in California looking out over the Pacific, weeping for hours.
ZieglerPress conference weeping.
NixonDid he?
ZieglerI got him choked. I broke up during my brief-- you know, the fact is that's the goddamn truth.
NixonSure.
ZieglerYou know, him.
NixonAnd yet with Jesus Christ, the the frankly I I you got to the point earlier,
Nixona little sheepish to get into it. I know I never did see it, I figured, I thought like Colson, I thought it was a nutty damn thing. Like we ought to check it out. You know, look, there was stuff leaking out of it you know, through Hughes and things.
NixonOn the other hand,
NixonI never thought frankly I didn't see anyone including, you know, who should know better than that, like
ZieglerI'm afraid that Ehrlichman and Haldeman did though.
NixonI just don't believe Haldeman or Ehrlichman, you know who I suspect did? Colson.
ZieglerThat's what I think.
NixonWell, I the suspicion is creeping in anyway. And I pity them if the suspicion is true.
ZieglerI believe they did though, Ron.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerBut uh--
Nixon[sighs]
ZieglerThis set up this whole set up of everyone's coming forward to say fine, everyone,
Zieglerwe're going to have to take a careful look at this, [unintelligible].
NixonWhat's that Ron, what do you mean by that? Well, I'm talking about everyone in their testimony, Mr. President. We're operating on the theory, I trust these men, and they're very candid, more or less.
NixonRight. And we're operating on that theory, could be with that that a fatal theory.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerThat eh, and the fact is they've got to stand up and take their present.
ZieglerWe've got to start thinking about the other side of that. Which is?
ZieglerWhich is that, these men and their testimony, their own independent testimony, in order for them to protect themselves, Every person did.
Ziegleris weave a story that's going to backfire on the presidency.
ZieglerYou look at me, you know you look at the uh
ZieglerTo win you in though it's their circumstances.
ZieglerYou look at the men now, look at their memos, take it down the line.
NixonYeah, like like Walters, Helms, Helms, and Gray. Gray eventually, eventually.
ZieglerWhat are they doing today?
ZieglerWell, the next thing all of you can fall, we're talking about this, perhaps, Dean, sure, and, uh, depending on how they're handled.
ZieglerWalters, not involving you, not I'm not saying that they seek out, they set out to involve the presidency, but by the testimony they give.
ZieglerWalters versus Ehrlichman and Haldeman. Helms versus Ehrlichman and Haldeman. You see that's conflicting testimony.
ZieglerThis This is the point I was making, you know, This is the point I was trying to make earlier behind the walls, and behind the moorings,
Zieglerif I were inspecting an investigation sitting up over the hear- water in a grand jury
Zieglerand there's Walters and there's Helms, and they give conflicting testimony as to what those mean, what about, not only did they call,
ZieglerThat in itself tends to break in to the presidency.
NixonI know that. That's what we're going to hear through all this, that they had hearings [unintelligible]
Nixonthey asked there they think well, damn it the president knows.
ZieglerOh, I know.
NixonWell, I'm just saying that Colson thinks he's so smart. I I was saying that to say, I I don't know, I know that
NixonColson's sworn to me that he had nothing to do with that. Means nothing.
NixonHe's the only guy I know. I also believe Ehrlichman and Haldeman. I've sometimes obsessed that [unintelligible]
ZieglerMeans nothing. He's the only guy I know, whose who fails the lie-detector test to tell the truth.
NixonBelieve me, I saw him all week. [laughter]
ZieglerI've never said that about any individual to a president.
NixonYou did a lot of things, though. Look at him like this for a while.
ZieglerAbsolutely. Everyone's worked with him. He had this quick, aggressive personality. He took in whole new spaces.
ZieglerBrilliant, John. Brilliant, John.
NixonThat's what I used to compliment him on.
Nixonfucking hours,
Nixonand you know he was the guy, not the guy who would tell you like this.
ZieglerYeah.
ZieglerMen liked the Colson part, very aggressive, had to be worked.
ZieglerHe did an excellent job in terms of religion, and in terms of community work, and if it wasn't for his connection,
ZieglerI believe, a lot of that would not have been done.
NixonA lot of the good things would have not been done.
ZieglerRight, yeah.
ZieglerOnly God can judge that for one man to another.
NixonFuck it.
NixonWhat MacGregor wants, then, what I'd, my recollection, my recollection was
Nixonthat, hell, that he was so pressed about this thing and that our whole thing, the investigation, we were investigating.
NixonThe only recollection I have of that is that he was supposed to back then check with the media. That's the only recollection I have, the same thing.
ZieglerWhen we got back from Hawaii, Mr. President,
NixonYeah.
ZieglerMacGregor was there.
ZieglerAnd I recall the discussion going down on Air Force One--
NixonI was listening to that.
ZieglerYeah, you were, before we walked into Hawaii,
NixonThat I was for, they've been discussing, they were discussing.
ZieglerRight, and Mac--
Zieglerabout putting out a statement.
NixonAbout the entire Watergate problem.
ZieglerOh, yeah. Yeah, and get it out in the open and that good time to do that would be while you were in Hawaii. So, then you could leave and,
NixonYeah, that's right. And MacGregor said no.
ZieglerAnd MacGregor said no.
NixonI don't know who. He wouldn't never be [unintelligible]
NixonThat's too bad, if Walters had never forgotten.
ZieglerThe question came up this noon about these files, Mr. President, and they said: well, will they be had? And I said: yes.
ZieglerAnd they took it for that that means all files.
ZieglerWell, I didn't mean that. What I said, and they took it, was all the files.
NixonAll right, well they'll be What what do you say later on on that, because on that I just went to say,
Nixonthey're not available to testify.
ZieglerThat's why I did say, why in the hell do people have to be up there anyway, in that way. I'd bring them up, we got someone to turn over the damn thing.
NixonWell hang on. What did you say about? You want this? We have a perfectly good ground, if it is true there's classified stuff.
ZieglerI find it to be right there.
NixonUh-huh.
Ziegler[sighs]
NixonSee it?
ZieglerSee the piece.
NixonNothin' we do it's gonna, whatever happens,
NixonOh yeah, it is [whispering]
NixonSee I didn't
NixonI don't think, frankly let's face it,
Nixonthey may not have even been contacted,
NixonJohn Ehrlichman,
NixonBob Haldeman,
NixonChuck Colson,
NixonJohn Mitchell.
ZieglerYeah. Even Colson.
NixonColson, maybe. Maybe. How could he possibly believe it?
ZieglerDean could have easily saved his ass, but there is there is a little bit of a streak there. Did you see that night owl?
NixonWhat?
ZieglerWhy would he put out the damn piece to the Star? And hate, just building it up so that it they have their credibility is what it is, isn't it? Showed he really backed up the piece.
Zieglerthat we have given that can be developed on the factual area.
NixonThe client protected.
ZieglerPeople.
NixonVery, very hesitant with anybody.
Zieglerdoing anything to interfere with John Dean's ability to protect himself.
NixonThat's his party, you know.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonNow, and I point out, Mr. Moore said earlier this fall, and cautioned, a question from Walsh was, "Did you honor the request not to never write a memo, talk to Dean?" Those four men all did talk to Dean.
ZieglerWhat I was referring to is—
NixonThe tone of their—the tone of their tone was, "Did they talk to him?" You know, they give him the facts, and also the remarks about the ah turning over documents.
ZieglerNow on that turning over of documents, Ron, I get, they get that question a lot. You know, they say, "It is our policy that, you know, no no no documents will be turned over." They have that perception, there isn't there isn't, Ron, all all all all documents are supposed to be fully presented.
NixonYou know what I mean?
NixonThe they the high up cases, though.
ZieglerIf the case, the way you got to find out, for the case is this this one.
NixonDid you talk at all, case of law is documents they were handing them over?
ZieglerThey were handing them over, but here the issue is classified. They are classified as top-secret. You know, for national security, and therefore, they were not seeing them all the way to Dean.
NixonThe stuff for that would be the FBI files, take out the classified portion.
ZieglerNow, will Ehrlichman testify?
NixonNo. His answer is, "I will testify with regard to all the unclassified. But I might need to give you an account of CIA"
ZieglerSee what I know is terribly, I think every time we give an answer that's a little bit beyond the call of duty, we've got to backtrack, we haul them in.
ZieglerI spit in people's face seventy, seventy percent of the time. I've earned that degree. And I ain't call to put it to use.
ZieglerI did. They should wear it. They're too afraid of what they'll get. I'm calling it to what folks would describe as a hell of a man.
NixonWell, the people who are in the media are honest, you know they are, but I don't think a lot of these folks in Washington know, they are. They are.
ZieglerThe players.
NixonThat they bought in. How did they get that?
NixonSo, the reason you gave to Mr. Baker was that we're trying to keep the facts into the question. That's good. But all we do, Ron—
ZieglerYeah.
Nixonis that you get that question, I'm going to want, what went on with this meeting, happened in the White House? I doubt I doubt this is going to be significant, but you don't know, do you? But for the present, you keep that out.
NixonYeah.
Zieglerthe the media has this feeling, that we're run under.
NixonYes, that you're being persecuted. That's much better to be, as you could see, better than running, running away from them. You see?
ZieglerThat's it. I'd kind of put together, I shouldn't, but I needed to get my—my battery recharged. I don't think I'll leave Washington,
NixonWell.
Zieglereven to get the battery recharged. You get out once a week, or at least go somewhere once a week, for an afternoon. Try to go to an in-house gym later for part—
NixonHow often here? Oh, goddamn. We did not think this. In this company, do the other door.
ZieglerI went through a lot of ideas. All right.
NixonOne of the great impressions, the impression—
ZieglerOne of the problems Allen had was, who's in charge? You're saying
NixonGreat. And he's coming. Who's who's in charge of the house? You can also say, "Now listen, folks. I forgot that I have taken courage to put our statement back to the point.
NixonA lot of cheap stuff on that, that came out. Get to the bottom of it.
ZieglerThe breakers, that's what's going to be, we could have, yes, could prove to some people and they trying to hammer out their and say, "God damn it, where is the hammer?"
NixonAll even supposed to be kept with you. I'd be careful, Ron.
ZieglerThis is goddamn bullshit.
NixonI know it is. I don't care how these damn bastards ask you. Yeah.
ZieglerMagruder said harassment in the park.
NixonGoddamnit.
ZieglerYou never saw [unintelligible]
NixonYou can respond, you did, didn't you? Yeah. But what the press is and everybody else, got? That Magruder had, you know, what he'd been into, or everybody on White House staff, who knows, you're looking for an attorney general, or Dean?
ZieglerStates that you can't be helped.
NixonYou can't be helped, for heaven's sake! What if someone lied? [unintelligible] We cooperated totally. Everybody they wanted, the White House staff
ZieglerRemember this Houston, or whoever the heck that was. What would you want him to have? You know, the eye told you what happened.
Nixon[unintelligible] all sorts of things, right?
ZieglerYou know there is one area where Magruder has said
NixonLet's see.
ZieglerI don't know, with Magruder, that has to be, you see, the pressure will mount. The pressure will then tap to that, Ron, with me.
NixonFor what? John?
ZieglerHe just said cross-examination.
NixonYes.
ZieglerPlease.
NixonNobody is stepping to you, John.
ZieglerAll we did,
NixonA lot of damn people can tell that. Do you?
ZieglerYeah. What we really got here is a terribly stupid thing that's compounded by
NixonYeah. Stupid thing.
Zieglerpeople being embarrassed, and can't hang with their situations. And after that, is really the goddamned deal that what the hell is [unintelligible]
NixonDoing?
Zieglerat that.
NixonAnd Ron, if you can hold out with such an act, do this thing, that the press is being very rude. We're not going to take that. The press is gonna direct candid questions and we will answer you.
ZieglerSure.
NixonYou see? And I get across to the nation the impression of a press conference, what fools they are. But look, the main thing is we've got to survive, Ron.
ZieglerYeah.
NixonAnd hold tight, we can't miss surviving because we will be around for quite a while.
ZieglerAnd then finally is
NixonIn my own mind. I didn't think the press conference crashed very well either. Yeah. It did with you, you know.
NixonSee, I can get over the whole stuff in about 10 minutes. Go through the head of the whole damned day every day, and have people take notes. I know.
ZieglerWell, we may have to take a beating. If we do, we just put our backs up and take it.
NixonI I want our first face in that press room. I'm going to wait until the circus tights.
NixonI must do the tight. [unintelligible] Then you say we had our say. Then if they go and indict it's because this case is buried.
ZieglerWell, they can say we went back-- I assume we respond. Well, they say what about yours? Well, they've made a statement.
Nixon[unintelligible] I say whatever it is.
NixonThen, whenever the indictment comes, I want to walk out there and I want, I want them to look at the name and not go beyond it.
NixonCos I, I, I've got, I've got a very [unintelligible] thing that I want to say about it. And they're going to show the very morning indictment, but the rest you know [unintelligible]
ZieglerBecause the secret would be not to comment.
ZieglerBecause the press today, [unintelligible] today because they were [unintelligible]
NixonWell, how does Buchanan respond to that? Does he want a press conference now?
ZieglerOh, you'd be goddamned embarrassed, Mr. President. [unintelligible]
NixonLet me say, I'm not afraid of it. Yeah. I'm not afraid of that. I am about ready, let's put it that way.
NixonBy the time packed with the indictments, that's right, that's just good. But I'm not sure we want to do a television thing. I'm not so sure, you know. I'm not so sure it isn't better to just call in the reporters. See my point?
NixonYou know how they'd like that, that they can go and piss all over it any way they want. To me that carries a national tone and brings a rational tone. I don't care to do it.
NixonI don't mind being harassed about Vietnam or about riots, being harassed about
ZieglerWell there's maybe another way. There's maybe another way to do it. Why not?
NixonI'm not so sure it isn't better to go to the other room.
NixonProbably, that a press conference would be like nine o'clock at night.
ZieglerBy not responding, you know, to a series of questions that the President You'll just piece together excellent questions.
ZieglerIn other words, an Eastern press, this this would be a second conference. Not everything.
ZieglerRight. And so that's for the second conference, an Eastern press conference, say. Then it would, we would anticipate a light crowd.
ZieglerIt would all gather about a few minutes, a statement to the press, done often.
ZieglerAnd then, based upon that presentation,
Zieglerthen respond to questions.
NixonAnd say, look, you probably had through other questions. You anticipated many of the questions people had, but that they wanted to raise on these matters. I'd like to beat what has been said through the press.
NixonNow there, there are, there have been based some questions. Number one, did I authorize a Cover Up with an investigation? Yes, I did. You tried to do it. Did John Dean specify this? Because it was a statement. Take
ZieglerThat actually Might be far That's good in itself.
NixonYeah.
ZieglerIt's good for symbolism.
ZieglerBecause you would very respectably then say, "I had hoped and I had that I'd be able to up to this point the White House respond to these questions, and I've been waiting for the Special Counsel, for the committee's Counsel, for the White House,
NixonYeah.
Ziegler"to help formulate statements that I can say to you regarding the charges that have been leveled against the President of the United States. Against this office. Against this office. Now, bang. And then the answers.
ZieglerThen, in about a ten- to two-sentence statement: "This has been a difficult period for the White House, but I intend to move ahead.
ZieglerAnd then the questions. Then you open the floor.
ZieglerI I think that that's a
NixonSee, that's a good idea, but don't you feel we have to wait for the indictment? The timing has to be right, Mr. President. Has to be indictments, right? No, we've got more than that.
ZieglerNo, I'm not I don't think the timing is so I haven't reasoned in my mind that you take a beating up to that time and actually You're not going to take that.
NixonNext week we might even have a few with other people in the meantime. We haven't had [unintelligible]
NixonWell, you'd better reassure Al on that.
NixonLater.
Ziegler[unintelligible] then they ask you the question, "Did you call Patrick Gray and talk to him?" "Did you call--" "Yes." "To compliment him on a job?" "Yes, that's right." And then, "When you talked to him, he expressed concern about substance?" "No, she did-- He was not specific, and I told him at that time to proceed with the investigation. I assumed he did it, and I still assume it."
NixonAnd, and he told me afterwards that he had. When I inquired, when I after I called him that day, oh, about a month later, early September, he I said, "Now listen, I call, I heard,
Nixon"and they said, 'We're very proud of our investigation.'" He did, and that's that.
ZieglerYeah, it's the press It's the qualities and the questions that we would get into, and you can handle them. There's an awful lot for them to ask. Persons versus these now.
NixonI agree.
ZieglerAnd David said, "All right, for All right. Then, why not let the I am for it.
NixonNext week's too early. I'm just I'm sure it's this week.
NixonLet me say, my thinking is that I think if you have a press conference before the grand jury's actions, and the grand jury's acting, they will they will say that, you know what I mean, and you've got that question answered.
NixonIf that's what, if they do indict, and the grand jury acts and who they will,
NixonYeah. Okay, Ron. [unintelligible] It's an old story. Okay, Ron.

Nixon, Ziegler & Haig on Watergate investigation and Press briefings

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Nixon, Ziegler & Haig on Watergate investigation and Press briefings

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Also recorded on May 14, 1973

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