Conversation 436-009

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The judges had not seen these documents in the box themselves at 3 o'clock.

They have got a thing for justice there to look at for security, so there's a good chance that they will get the information.

If the guy had the information earlier that he had seen the documents, that's the way we got it.

Which would have been a terrible thing to do for him to deny it.

Well, apparently what he did, it was nasty what he was going to do before he even looked at the documents.

So he is going to look at them at 3 o'clock latest in the outbound.

Now, I'm going over, because Art has been going over everything.

He's been in touch with Don and John.

He's been in touch with, he has not talked to folks in that period of time.

You asked him about this?

I don't know.

It's nowhere.

I don't know.

We don't know.

Let's go the way we want.

Yeah.

Yes, he will be the boss.

For you, it would be perfect.

I'm a little worried about Bob and John.

We haven't met.

We haven't dressed the same.

It's a meeting.

It's going to be a very important day.

and Dean's papers, and Dean's been over to Justice, he's been over to the department, but he hasn't been quite granted, but he has not.

Now, I understand, this is what I've got with Justice Bazar.

They may not even call him, just invite him without calling him.

But they are going to invite some this week.

They're going to be, you know, the murder of Mitchell.

It was sort of funny, but they've gotten so much that they may feel they had enough to invite him in any event.

That's what that is on this one, other witnesses about him.

Now, Bob was on this morning, and I had Larry check to see how that's going to go.

And then they called John, and John is on the stand at the Grand Jury this afternoon.

I don't know.

And they might have pulled a portion of the trip on us and put it out of the building.

And it's really a problem.

And we just have to see how bad it is.

Give me the sign when you see it.

This was a document, excuse me, a tape of a telephone conversation that he had.

He, Ernie Harrelson, had with Boyd.

in which there was some question about it.

Do you have any evidence of anybody in the White House involved that coerced them, or when did this occur?

I think this occurred in July.

I don't think it's a damaged piece of paper, but I think John held it because of the

It's a rule that it is a piece of paper.

And it's the principle that we've got to understand with it.

That's really, I don't, that doesn't bother me a damn bit.

He ought to testify with regard to contents and things.

You know what I mean?

Exactly.

Don't give him the piece of paper.

Okay.

For Christ's sake, if he takes control of the conversation, he should have given that to him.

He should have given a direct election to him.

But where are they now, so I can say, I think it's the most important thing we can do, and we can't wait to see where we stand on it.

How do you think we're going to get an illness infection?

With all the problems we've got, it's the best thing we can do.

Well, it's the best thing we can do.

It's a goddamn thing moving fast.

Let's face it, we've got to have the roughest thing we've done now.

Yeah, they're going to try to drag Henry, and they're going to try to drag me in, and that's fine.

It doesn't help.

But you and Henry make a straight national security absolute.

I think it's very important that you have a lot of people in your office in a very strong position.

Yes, I believe the White House, you know, the President, you know, might approach them

and of course we had an operation of the equipment that we had to stop the leaks and the important things that we were in contact with, that we were in parallel with our board of directors.

It's great that we kept in line.

You know, I talked to Phil, and I said, Phil got in with the systems and all the systems over there and said, you know, this is the first time we've sent you a list over to people that you should consider for a director.

How is it?

He was in-house and outside at that.

He said, you ought to know that the people around the house are all over there.

And they're not pregnant.

But they can leave you with stuff.

Primarily, he's, maybe some of them, to be sure that I cannot go back to you.

He said, it's thoroughly.

And I asked him about previous camps.

I said, are they over there?

And I said, yes, there's a fire on the camps.

It should be there.

It was there when I left.

It ran from Roosevelt right on through.

And he said the heaviest passing period was in the 40s.

The 40s?

Well, it would have been, yes, the war.

But he said it was a pretty healthy slug.

He said it went through the demonstration.

Eisenhower did it.

Kennedy did it.

Kennedy probably won in Eisenhower.

I don't think that's true.

Johnson, we know you're going to have a Detroit on him.

The trouble's with Johnson.

He knew he was vulnerable, so he used the secret service.

He used the secret service to attack him.

Now, I had known that before, so I was hoping that maybe we should have met.

to get him and the whole history of this thing right now.

Yeah.

Well, we're trying to solve it, and we're supposed to.

I mean, if we have anybody that'll do it, he can't rely on us.

Nobody over there is reliable.

Especially, of course, it's very obvious, because, well, in the starting night, they talked about someone else coming over here Saturday, and going through the files, and they come back over there, and all this stuff, and just...

That's how he put his thing on.

That's right.

We had to have him just in the middle of the class because we had all kinds of additional people in there.

I hope that you hear what I'm trying to say.

We're in trouble with these bastards out there.

Listen, they're all protecting our ass.

We understand that.

That's the reason.

Well, what's the reason?

Well, I thought you were just giving me that pain out of your head and sending the media out there.

Let me say this, in respect to Michael's house, he's a good man.

He isn't going to do anything dishonorable.

But he may have done something to protect himself.

How does it look to you?

Well, he thinks he did all right, but we're downscoring him for STK.

I know I got a California call from him.

I'm not joking.

Did you, for example, how did the fact get out that I had written a letter to O'Rourke and Crowe and FBI legal?

They written it.

There were two letters.

The first letter was in Cameron.

It's a very funny letter.

It was probably in Braves.

or if we haven't.

The other one is what?

The other one is that it's still very clear the claim of the president.

It was a lie and it had an attachment to the people.

Neighbors of people who could have been associated with Ellsberg.

And you asked the director to develop all the data on that.

And he did, and walked away with great confidence.

Still on that.

That's all right.

I don't care about that.

Is that Lisa?

I mean, I didn't ever remember.

I mean, obviously, I wouldn't have had such.

These are names that must have come front and fro.

Well, I guess we just have to bear this one, instead of this one.

We'll ride through, and we'll take care of them, and enjoy the day.

And none of these are the same.

You say that, I'm not speaking from the FBI, but as an internecine worker in the FBI, where nobody trusted anybody else, now the military goes out of the FBI, the White House, you know, so that started to move as far as this thing went.

Huh?

This took this thing right away from work.

He was fired within the FBI to remove those records.

And as soon as they were brought to our attention, they were returned to the FBI.

So the White House could get in that one sentence that the White House got that in.

He took every change we gave him.

He was asked if he was going to release the names, and he said no, he was not going to do so.

Was it legal?

Yes, it was legal.

Where the facts work.

That's good.

What does Henry say, or do you say, when we ask you to do so and so?

I think you say, only if it involved people within your staff.

That's what I would say.

If it involved people on your staff, you did, otherwise not.

Say, Henry, what is that standard?

No.

What else?

Did Egg see that?

He didn't answer that.

Did you see him now?

I thought he did.

I saw something.

Yeah, I just fixed that shit.

God damn it, it's legal.

It should.

Clear it up.

He'll probably put him in himself, too.

By our system, I don't feel like we can have bullshit like this all the time.

At least something.

I think we saw one of them back in the day.

But where is he now?

He's in town right now working on research.

I see.

So you think Layton may have passed the word that some of this might be real?

I think so.

See, Alpert's been in the public community for years now.

Henry Grant, all these names have been out.

The FBI's leaked the whole damn thing.

It's been out, just hasn't gotten much attention.

So we didn't have a damn thing right along.

Just the fact that the FBI, I have to say, the records, it looks like they're trying to hide something again.

But that's, that's the important thing.

That's the overriding.

Of course, there is, still looks that way.

We have the records over here.

You know, it's clear we came over here.

You can see the warfare over there.

Yes.

That's clear.

Oh, well, we just, let me say, it's one of those dead things you have to take.

They were here, and they were brought back, but they were not destroyed.

They were not turned.

We're not, they're trying to hide it, and so forth.

Disclosing the whole thing.

The power is not yet winning, I'm sure.

We know that John will be back there this afternoon.

Yes, sir.

I don't know whether Bob said he did not have the right to check them.

I did.

I said we do not know.

That's right.

As I said, there's a chance that they're going to follow me back up.

That seems very strange to me.

Well, they wouldn't call the guy.

I mean, there's still a kind of plan to give them immunity and hold them court.

Would that be the line?

Let's see.

The truth of the case, I don't know.

He certainly has evidence, but if McGruder, we expect him to be a confessor, but being a bad-ass and a parable, I mean, trying to skirt up all this stuff, so... McGruder is not ready for the presidency, and we have...

Let's come back to the fundamental point, the Bureau thing.

The NSCC is against it.

What about these things that we are against?

Certain personnel were included because they were against it.

People were, I don't know what names were included in that.

I would never have looked over.

I decided to look.

This and this and this.

My guess is that Henry and Henry.

Henry probably gave it to Crow.

Huh?

He gave it to Crow.

He gave it to someone.

Henry didn't.

He gave it to Mitchell.

He didn't.

Crow probably gave it to this person.

John wasn't involved.

Oh, absolutely.

But on the other hand, my letters of regard to Crowe named certain people on the other day.

Now that was separate.

This was in 1971 when the Ellsberg paper was held.

Oh, the Ellsberg paper.

Blue.

You, quite naturally, got very concerned about that, right?

We all did.

And then it was, it was then that Erickson took over the probe, the probe in charge of an investigation.

Yes.

And it was then that he made, uh, this man that worked for Henry in the NSC stand.

Yeah.

It's available to John.

Yeah, I remember talking to him on this.

Now, and then at that occasion, apparently they had, I signed a letter to the probe, to the director, saying,

There's pros in charge of these names I want you to check on.

That was in July.

First, there was a more bland brief letter in which you said that the program had been working on the passbook, setting up the passbook, but not looking at the security information.

Right.

That's right.

Then another letter said you wanted all the information about all these people in conjunction with this Asbury investigation.

What's wrong with that?

I don't know.

Suppose they tapped them all.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing.

But obviously the FBI did.

Huh?

The FBI did not tap them.

Why not?

Well, if they did, it's hard to believe because they were already with them.

It might have been kind of the time they could do it by law, maybe.

Or maybe that was when Guler wasn't about to go out there.

It was June of 72.

June of 72.

That's when the law became effective.

The law became effective in June of 72.

If it got over, it happened before June of 72.

I'm not concerned about that.

You understand?

If the Bureau didn't have him before then, that wouldn't be all right.

Well, he and Aspen, their last match were over on February 7th.

They couldn't find him in the match.

Any evidence of that?

By the Bureau?

By the Bureau.

I'm late.

Oh, he was in the 7th.

I'm late.

See, I have a feeling that maybe code could do something.

At a later time.

At a later time, it may destroy it, but it's a good possibility.

But June of 72, what happened to the letter caps of Girtang?

The only evidence of any caps that we've seen are those caps that were published in February of 72.

Nothing here.

Here are claims of them.

No, we haven't been in search.

I haven't asked John.

I haven't seen him.

He may have.

If he has, he's got to admit it.

Can't lie.

I'm not sure that is the second page.

How would they know that he had a, he had a 10-pound recording?

They asked him if he had a recording.

He volunteered.

I haven't been asking him about that.

He's actually over here.

He's actually over there.

Well, it may be that he has been reflecting on the conversation, but it may be that there's not a hammer and a hammer.

Or does he say there was a hammer and a hammer?

Yeah, he has a... Well, it's a tape.

It's a typewritten, all verbatim text of the telephone conversation.

Oh, well, that's because he's done that tape other times.

Nobody knows.

He may have returned to the conversation.

He said he had a record of it.

He probably said yes, but it comes under executive privilege.

I agree with that.

What the judge does, 3 o'clock, is he bans papers.

But I mean, if that was decided today, wouldn't you...

Yes, sir.

That would be...

I learned how to...

I'll throw Bob here, not today.

All right.

Water is in the hill in conjunction with what?

The Armed Services Committee looking into the CIA operation?

Involvement in this?

No, just CIA, not CIA generally, but they're getting into this.

They had Cushman up there, Mr. Foxy and Cushman.

Well, the war was actually pretty well.

Now, I know he relents as far as the President's is concerned.

I'm not so sure it will be helpful as far as Bob and John are concerned.

It won't be helpful as far as he is concerned.

That'd be just absolute.

You said, I know I'm an impressive concern.

We're going off of our strategy.

What is our strategy?

Well, our strategy is to, you know, it's hard to handle this stuff.

We're in the state where we are.

And I guess he's right about that, but on the other hand, this is one of those days when the stories deserve a reaction.

And when they do have to worry about it, that's basic.

But on the other hand, Al, keep our perspective.

We've got to realize that when the Senate and the legislature come on,

They'll have every pitch sweep up there, and there'll be somebody rushing you with a tape or some off-the-wire, every half hour.

And they'll say, gee, we've got to bring this to the president, and so forth and so on.

And usually there isn't a goddamn thing I can do about it.

Or not a damn thing, either.

I think that it's the czar's case that they do.

They have to get him.

I don't know whether we can do it, frankly, but we can.

Of course we can.

It won't be hard, but it sure will be a long time.

I said, no, I think there's a rule that will set them down where they can't afford to and show them.

We can't have new stuff.

There's new things coming up.

The Walters thing is going to be hidden in the frame, so it's going to require some coaching.

That's right.

It's going to be fairly quick coaching.

That's right.

The same is true of the Renaissance.

That's right.

The Renaissance.

And, as a matter of fact, it's a good paper.

We won't get into that, but we'll get to know it.

It's very prompt.

But, beyond that, I agree that the best way to do this is not to be writing every scripture.

I mean, the verdict, and what's the law going for?

Well, right now, I'd say the rest of this week's going to be very tough.

It's going to be fast-moving.

Fast-moving?

After that, it's just not going to be that.

When the indictments come out, that's going to take a lot of the interest out of this case.

It's also going to make it damn difficult for that committee.

Sorry?

You can't do it without a pallet.

Well, Mr. Stennis is working late.

But he can't really close in with full pressure.

They think there will be light this week.

They always want to save the tables.

The Bureau is hot.

They're referencing this point.

I said, sure, you have a problem.

He said, he knows damn well I didn't try to interfere with him.

I said, fine.

I think he'll be all right.

Why do you think Nelson will be all right?

In fact, he lives so little.

Yeah.

Fortunately, he does.

You've got the other problem.

I don't think we should be defensive about that.

For you, I think it's the worst opportunity that we can take.

Yeah, that's frustrating.

If I was John Henry, I would be defensive about it.

I understand that.

But these are things we're having to do, you know, to protect the security.

Well, I've said this so many times, and I still believe it.

Well, he's pregnant, and we can expect that his best defense is a very strong offense.

We've got a guy here on the center, and that's good, because otherwise he'd be...

Be way off there.

Don't worry.

Be way off there.

And then you, uh... You still think he's a good, strong man?

It's so much better to have him in the farm.

We'd be under the wall.

Wonderful guy.

But we got him doing exactly what he ought to be doing.

The bizarreness of the Reynolds House Papers is just the fact of how, why the hell were they taken to the White House and why did Mitchell and Flanagan return?

Why did they get back?

Just what's the difference?

Frankly, we were caught with our hands and it couldn't be our destiny at all.

Frankly.

You know, I don't think so.

I'm not going there.

I'm ready.

In fact, the list says the opposite.

We were put on notice.

We didn't know where to work.

Now, John, of course, is kind of the only place he worked.

We were following him at that time.

Was anybody else here?

Were you hurt?

Within 24 hours, we found out and returned.

Okay.

But we found out that they were missing.

Well, the point was, they didn't request the goddamn thing.

They didn't request it.

You're old.

If they did request it, it could have happened.

That's the point.

We made it there, and we didn't, we didn't get over it.

Now, we just gotta take, let me say this, we just gotta take the heat of this week and we're gonna lose your life.

Dude, I don't doubt about that, eh?

Is there any more sweat?

Yeah.

Just do the same thing again.

Black.

That's right.

Too much wonder.

Stop to think about it.

What'd I say?

I don't like that.

It's disgusting, man.

At least that guy's got to have that variety for me.

That's a nice thing that they put in there.

They don't know much, but just as well to know what the other guy's got.

Dean doesn't have as much as he's let along.

I think he was in on a hell of a lot.

What do you think?

I don't know.

Well, I think he's an active guy.

and if we, uh, if they get a relief or not.

Quarter to four.

Shouldn't we know what the judge, the judge is open now?

All right, thank you, thank you.

Well, could you, uh, could we, maybe you get back to your office and call me.

I'll be here, though.

I'm going to leave here at about 5 after 4 to see Ron and all that.

But, uh, let me know if you could.

If you can get anyone at 4 o'clock.

Wait, I'll give you a call at 4 o'clock tomorrow.

See what the hell's happened.

The judges.

The judges and the papers.

What were you going to do?

Open the goddamn papers at 3 o'clock?

And we open the box to review the material.

Our man is to be there.

Let's take care of him.

Who is our man?

Is there a man for justice?

Oh, he is going to be there.

No.

Of course.

Yeah.

The court is concerned.

They've got that 43-pager.

That's not our problem.

What the hell do you guys do?

You know, just as credible as he is.

But we want to get it because it's classified.

Okay, thank you.

Don't get discouraged now.