On May 16, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and unknown person(s) met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 1:40 pm to 2:00 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 437-003 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
investigation.
I just made your story.
I said they just don't know.
Sir, I told him what the facts were, is that what you want to say?
What about the papers today?
The assholes aren't going to use them.
I think none of the...
I think the police was acting on them.
They were a bust.
Yeah, well, that's...
Okay, that's... Bring in... Would you like to do the name?
Yes, sir.
I... How did it go bad?
Well, I just said that they came in deep with the Apple story right this morning.
See, I didn't... Apple said there was no story?
No, not Apple said, but...
But the dean reported an oral report of transparency about Hurley.
Correct.
Now, Hurley didn't want to back that up.
He won't.
No, sir.
So what I said is, what did the director of Hurley want to say then?
He prepared the goddamn briefing book.
Okay.
But the point I made in the briefing was that the very outstanding president made clear to his senior staff, I didn't mean to hurt anybody, but I hope so,
that you wanted a complete investigation was to determine if the White House was involved in the water game.
Did you make it also, did you also say that to McGregor that he would do the same thing?
Now, then I said there was no question whatsoever in the president's mind that the investigation process was continued.
And that the results provided to him were the results of the investigation.
Is it constantly throughout the period of months or months that members of my staff that at no time was there any indication from Mr. that the investigation had not taken place?
Indeed, there was reference to the back of the day.
And then what was involved and what else happened?
Well, why would you say, when we were asking you whether it was oral or written, I said I had not seen it before.
I followed the guidance from the council's owner, and that's the guidance I was given to send.
Actually, I didn't want to get into this there.
You know, they're really impressive, so inspiring.
Oh, yeah.
There's another in there responding to what you said.
I'll remember this good one.
Very good.
Some of them must have been a bunch of assholes, don't they?
Well, yeah, this is what came up to me.
He said, what was that?
He said, what was that?
He said, you had me in there.
He said, this is you.
He said, I don't know what you can do except hang on that line.
He said, you know, I said, well, you're trying to do this one thing.
He said, I can't do that.
He said, well, that's fine.
He said, all right.
That's according to Texas, but he is not.
Now, they said, well, did Dean ever talk to the president directly about the results of his nomination?
I said, I'm not aware of it.
I said, he did not before.
Well, how was that communicated to the president?
I said, that's something that really can't be done.
See, I didn't want to pit him on everything at all.
I don't know if this is relevant or not.
Earlyman, but I didn't.
Earlyman will not say that Dean did.
What the hell was Earlyman?
Earlyman.
Who gave you the goddamn answer?
Earlyman gave it to me.
Why, does he think Dean's got something on him?
I don't know.
He certainly didn't prove anything.
Well, he didn't look for the guy who did.
If he can, he prepared the book.
What did it say?
It said that, as Mr. Earlyman has said, no one was involved in the investigation.
Yeah.
Were you able to make the point that under our procedures, the responsibility for all security matters was with the council?
Yes, sir.
Did you make that point?
Yes, sir.
I sure did.
Did you fight out for that?
Yes, sir.
whether it was recorded.
Well, maybe that's what I said.
Of course, what I said was on another day.
Well, they call you.
I'm the kind of patient that you would let in the morning and do something and say, oh, I didn't say it.
No, I don't worry.
I think you should say it.
I checked with him.
I checked with him.
God damn it, you did.
Didn't he always say there was no way I wasn't gone?
No.
Shit, he never told me anybody that I was gone.
February 28th on, the 1st.
I saw him only twice.
September 15th, which was, and Bob, that guy, kept telling me there was nothing in that.
A bunch of crap.
And the time he signed the will.
Didn't he always say there was no way Bob wasn't gone?
No.
He never told me anything about us.
Well, February 28th on, I saw him only twice.
Another time on February 28th.
And at that time, isn't he over?
September 15th, which was,
Bob, thank God, kept him up to the beat.
There was nothing in that.
A bunch of crap.
And the time he signed the will.
No other time but February 28th.
And at that time, he also made it clear that no one in the White House was involved.
That was his contention up until March 21st.
That day, he began to say that he was involved and made the whole number of the future.
That was what struck out a lot.
Do you understand that?
That's why Marshall University is a critical brigadier.
But that was the first time John Dean ever told me that.
Of course, I said, of course, you know what he said, which is no wonder that I still had confidence in him.
Sure.
He was still prepared.
I told him to go up with John, go up and prepare a goddamn report on this thing.
I mean, you know what the hell was going on?
I don't know.
They did the CIA thing.
Oh, yeah.
There, Bob and John have got to go take their lawyer.
Well, the point is, they held it in my direction for the purpose of seeing whether the CIA was involved.
Not for the purpose of recovering, etc.
But I shouldn't get involved in an answer to a question like that out there.
I think that's fine.
They can't say that they held it in Baltimore to see if there was a CIA involvement.
Not for the purpose of a CIA cover-up.
You see, what happened here is that they then took off on the cover-up.
Don't worry about my... Of course they held it in my direction.
But I didn't want to say that.
They weren't saying that to hurt me.
No, no.
But in this environment...
Just to show you.
I said, well then, you see, when we say that, they said, well, actually, they declared that no one in the White House was involved.
It could be years or five or six grand.
I said, well, I don't think we should do that.
I said, too bad.
Maybe we ought to thank them.
That's your problem.
You didn't do that.
Oh, yeah.
But my point is, my point is I don't think that we ought to have harassed you for over an hour.
Well, but I wasn't here for an hour.
We were going to do something.
Camping?
Yeah.
Camping.
They won't credit me.
That was his contention up until Mark Schoenberg.
Yes, sir.
That day.
We didn't want that type of story.
We didn't want that type of story.
Our whole line should be we were trying to get the facts, and we ran against the barriers.
Correct.
But I already think Dean was involved in all that I could realize.
I forgot Tom, for example, we had to let that poor guy, he had to say that he was involved, and maybe homeowner Richard, go to the SEC then.
Well, I found that Dean had made a call on that matter.
Dean?
Okay.
That's him?
Yep.
Dean had made a call to the chairman of the SEC.
I don't know whether it sounds like it.
Dean, the curious thing, Dean is very close to Mitch.
And Dean, I don't think, I think Dean's problem is not only lack of principle and morals, but also a great lack of judgment.
I mean, Mitch would say, look, John, you ought to call this and do it.
So he made the call.
John Dean.
I met with the company.
I don't know if that is an approach.
I don't know.
We've got to fight now.
I don't mean don't fight them aggressively at this
Because the country is going to get sick of this gun.
They're going to get sick of it.
I don't know when it's going to come, but it's got to.
Or are you going to agree?
I agree.
I do agree.
No, no.
All right, sir.
would take the seat in the surrounding.
And I picked this whole thing up, that goddamn box of beef.
That was a, that's a big, brilliant, but when it comes out of it here, where there was a coordination of the domestic intelligence, the gathering of intelligence, it involved law and intelligence, there should have been, and was, right?
That was what struck it all off, you understand that?
And as a response to the FBI process, I said, I was concerned that the president and the opposite administration had no vision.
Even they publicly considered that very clearly.
And against the national amusement, therefore, and against the original narrative, the president was very, very concerned that that would have an effect on the foreign policy initiatives that were being undertaken by the federal government.
And I was worried about it.
Why don't you want to read tomorrow?
I don't think I want tomorrow.
You know, I still think the idea of, I don't know what to be writing, but I just don't want to, I'm working on it here and trying to bring it back around to create new questions.
I don't want them to feel that I'm running from here.
That's right, that's right.
Because you can't this week, Chuck.
You can just say tomorrow, here.
Well, I think we'll have to break tomorrow.
I guess so.
But let's get to a point where we get, where you skip a day now.
Yeah, I agree.
And eventually, I'm ready to skip two days.
But they came and went and counseled him.
But he couldn't answer questions.
Which backs up what we're doing.
And he made it clear, this is not the forum to respond to questions.
was to show that this is just not an effort between the press secretary and the president.
Right, right.
They might have asked him about Watergate.
Well, yeah.
Why did they try to get him on?
He won't just take credit for it.
The president, no, and all that shit.
No, no, no.
Just basically, he made a hypothetical question.
As the lawyer, that this is not important.
We'll have our agreement.
Yes, sir.
Believe me, we will.
We're not worried now.
No, sir.
Now, this is the, I mean, we started with six.
This is the 10th day.
That's right.
And by God, you see, the crap in that box, I think it's concerned on me.
Well, I feel good.
I thought I had it.
You thought it was a bluff all along here, sir.
This block?
Yes, sir.
This crack?
Oh, but not that it was open.
You mean not that they'd seen it there?
What, the Senate?
I know that.
What, because of the box?
That was not my scenario.
But their lawyers probably created all of this public impression that Dean had a lot of this good information.
Get him immunity, so he can go before the Senate and spill as much as he knows, not about the president, but about the SEC and the .
Go after and get himself clear of the judicial process that's going to be .
I'm sure we get across the impression as far as the impressions that it was concerned.
You know, consecrated in the church today and so on and so on.
I don't know.
They, you know, these
They just write what they want, what they believe.
Howard Smith, according to me, is going to be the one to come in and see the president.
And I told him to just tell Howard that I didn't see anybody that would capture him.
I'm not going to see him.
It would be the worst thing I could do at this point.
Don't you agree?
You can call him and say, look, I'm the president.
I'm the vice president.
Yeah, yeah, but sometimes when a reporter calls because I've got something I've got to tell the press, I just want to get some purposes.
I don't, I'm not going to go for it.
I mean, the point is that on the other hand, if he has something, he has to tell us.
At some point.
At some point.
No, he would say to the president, I just want you to know that policy has got to be at this time.
This grant is very, this grant is what it does.
I'll work something out.
I'll work something out.
And in the meantime, he'll be sure nobody else will be seen.
But I don't want him to come in.
He isn't, he isn't part of a resigned school.
I'll begin with a group that's not very good at stuff like this.
Well, there are more than all, but Jesus Christ, the New York Times will be on that one.
Okay, sir.
on the versions of critical bridge data, but that was the first time John Dean ever told me that.
Of course, I said, of course, in 26, which is no wonder that I used to go ahead and comment on that.
I used to go up with John Rucker, Farragut, and Amber Porter on this thing.
I mean, you know what the hell was wrong?
I don't know.
They did the CIA thing.
Oh, yeah.
Well, the point is, they held it in my direction for the purpose of seeing what the CIA was involved with.
I had the purpose of a cover-up, but I couldn't get involved in an answer to a question like that.
I think that's fine.
They can't say that they held it in Baltimore to see if there was a CIA involvement.
Not for the purpose of a CIA cover-up.
You see, what happened here is that they then took off on the cover-up.
Don't worry about my... Of course they held it in my direction.
But I didn't want to say that.
They weren't saying that to hurt me.
No, no.
But in this environment...
I said,
Well, then, you see, when they say that, they say, well, that could be years or five or six grand.
I said, well, I don't think so.
Too bad.
Maybe we ought to thank them.
That's our problem.
You didn't do that.
Oh, yeah.
But my point is, my point is, I don't think that we ought to .
Well, but I was .
Campaign.
Campaign.
They won't .
Oh, yeah.
.
Our old line should be, we were trying to get the facts.
We ran against Barrett.
Correct.
I already think Dean was involved in more than I could realize.
I forgot to tell him, for example, we had to let that poor guy go to the SEC, didn't we?
Well, I commented, Dean has made a call.
So he made the call.
I've had it with the company.
I don't buy it.
It's crazy.
I agree.
I do think so.
No, no.
At the right instant, except that he's not quite how to carry it out.
You'll take the seat and we'll surround you.
And I picked this whole thing up.
I've got a damn box of feet on that.
That's a fake.
Brilliant.
But when it comes out on it here, when there was a coordination of the domestic intelligence and gathering, it involved law and intelligence.
They're shitheads and models, right?
and that's responsible for the FBI process, that's it.
I was concerned at the present time about this administration, I don't know if it's even made public, but I'm concerned that it would very quickly, and against the national reason, therefore, and against the original narrative, that there was a very real concern that that would have an effect on the foreign policy initiatives that were being undertaken by the federal government.
And I was worried about it.
Why don't you want to read tomorrow?
I don't think I want tomorrow.
You know, I still think the idea of, I don't know how long you want to be writing, but I just don't want to, I'm working on it here and trying to bring it back around to create the impression.
of openness at some time, which succeeded.
I don't want them to feel that I'm running from here.
That's right, that's right.
Because you can't this week, Chuck.
You can just say that tomorrow we're going to be here.
Well, I think we'll have to break now.
I guess so.
But let's get to a point where we get, where you skip a day now.
Yeah, I agree.
And eventually, I'm ready to skip two days.
campaign of viruses.
But they came to Lynn, the council.
Lynn Lynn is a guy who has certainly made a point.
But he couldn't answer questions.
Which backs up what we're doing.
And he made it clear that this is not the forum to respond to questions such as this.
And I've asked him, my recent president, to go out there
show that this is just not an effort between the press secretary and the president.
Right, right.
They might have asked him about Watergate.
Well, yeah.
Why did they credit him on it?
You can't just credit the president.
The president, no, and all that shit.
No, no, no.
Just basically, he made a hypothetical question.
As the lawyer, that this is not informed.
We'll have our agreement.
Yes, sir.
Believe me, we will.
We're not worried now.
No, sir.
Now, this is the, I mean, we started on the 6th.
This is the 10th day.
That's right.
And by God, you see, the crap in that box, I think it's concerned on me.
Well, I feel good.
I thought I had it.
You thought it was a bluff all along here, sir.
This block, this crack, oh, but not that it was open.
You mean not that they'd seen it there?
Well, the Senate.
I know that.
What, because of the box?
That was my scenario.
But their lawyers probably created all of this public impression that Dean had a lot of this good information.
Get him immunity so he can go before the Senate and spill as much as he knows, not about the president, but about the SEC and the O.A.
and the board of the CIA contacts.
Go after Irving and get himself clear of the judicial process.
That's got to be the challenge.
He needs such immunity.
I'm sure we get across the impression, as far as the questions that are in this concern, totally consecrated .
These assholes, they just write what they want, what they believe.
I told him to just tell Howard that I didn't see anybody who was happy with what I did.
I'm not going to see him reading it.
That would be the worst thing I could do at this point in time.
Don't you agree?
I wonder what he had on the line.
Maybe I should call him.
I'll call him later.
You could call him and say, look, the president is delighted to see you.
You know, maybe I should ask him to come.
Yeah, yeah.
But sometimes...
The reporter called and said, I've got something I've got to tell the president.
I just want to get some, the purpose is, is to say, let's hear something from the president.
I don't, I'm not going to go for that yet.
I mean, the point is that on the other hand, if he has something, he has to tell us.
No, the point is, if he thinks the president can do it, we're going to have to show him.
Al is going to crush him.
The lack of him is going to do it.
But he's not going to do it.
But I simply say, let's do it.
At some point.
No, you can say it, President.
I just want you to know that policy has got to be at this time, this time, until after the grand jury does this.
All right.
This grand jury, when it does, we'll work something out.
I'll work something out.
We won't.
In the meantime, we'll be sure nobody else is.
But I don't want him to come in.
He isn't, he isn't part of the design school.
I'll begin, but I'm not very good at stuff like that.
Well, there are more now, but Jesus Christ, the New York Times will be on that part of it.
Okay, sir.