← 442-060442-062 →

Conversation 442-061

TapeTape 442StartMonday, June 4, 1973 at 8:40 PMEndMonday, June 4, 1973 at 8:55 PMParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Ziegler, Ronald L.;  Sanchez, ManoloRecording deviceOld Executive Office Building
AudioNARA Description

On June 4, 1973, President Richard M. Nixon, Ronald L. Ziegler, and Manolo Sanchez met in the President's office in the Old Executive Office Building from 8:40 pm to 8:55 pm. The Old Executive Office Building taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 442-061 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 442-61

Date: June 4, 1973
Time: 8:40 pm - 8:55 pm
Location: Executive Office Building

The President met with Ronald L. Ziegler.

[A transcript of this conversation appears in RG 460, Box 172, pp. 136-151]

[A transcript of the following portion of this conversation was initially prepared for the
Watergate Special Prosecution Force (WSPF) and can be found in Record Group (RG) 460, Box
172, “Transcript Prepared by the Impeachment Inquiry Staff for the House Judiciary
Committee…,” pages 136-151 (.pdf pages 141-156). The Nixon Presidential Materials Staff
reviewed the transcript and made changes as necessary. This transcript has been reviewed under
the provisions of the Presidential Recordings and Materials Preservation Act of 1974 (PRMPA).
 The National Archives does not guarantee its accuracy.]

[Begin transcribed portion]
                                          -57-


                   NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                   Tape Subject Log
                                  (rev. February-2011)

                                                         Conversation No. 442-61 (cont’d)


[End transcribed portion]

     Watergate
          -John W. Dean, III’s memorandum
                -President’s knowledge

[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

     Watergate
          -Moore’s location
               -Arrival
               -Meeting with Ziegler

[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

     Watergate
          -Investigation
                -Ziegler’s knowledge
          -Cover-up
                -Dean

[Resume transcribed portion]

[End transcribed portion]

     Watergate
          -White House response
               -H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
               -Ziegler’s role

[Resume transcribed portion]
                                                -58-


                    NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM 


                                         Tape Subject Log 

                                        (rev. February-2011)

                                                               Conversation No. 442-61 (cont’d)

Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 8:40 pm.


[End transcribed portion] 


Sanchez and Ziegler left at 8:40 pm.
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

rob check them out 20 things because listen to this thing i haven't seen anything but it wasn't stated or through you or something it didn't have anything to do with the urban committee
No, it was a very close statement.
Ian Moore and I argued it for about an hour and ten minutes.
I'm just listening to the man.
I had a draft.
No, not the draft.
I didn't have a draft.
I was stating that he prepared.
They had to send it, I think, to Eastland.
All right.
But it was after the 17th.
This was the 20th of March.
Right.
And this would have been...
On the 17th, he brought my paper to me.
There are a lot of notches where I read that in my office.
Right.
On the 17th, he brought something to my office.
I can't remember what it was.
I think it was .
Then he drafted another letter to Easton, which is amazing because it says that, second to this, that the fact that I conducted an investigation on this matter,
The direction of the president made it inappropriate for me to obtain the FBI information relevant to their investigation.
To the contrary... As a matter of fact, he discussed this whole thing when we were at it.
And more, before the fellow fellow will remember, during the whole conversation, I went over it line by line.
I went over Segretti, I went over your statement, whatever his statement, everything else, you know?
It was all in there.
He says, to the contrary, in an investigation of this importance, referring to his,
It was incumbent on me to obtain all available information.
This was a letter that he was going to send to the chairman.
I didn't know what it was with her statement.
It has been alleged that I show an FBI interview with Donald Stratton.
Well, to find out some more of what the hell we discussed on the 20th of March, whether it was that, or a statement you were debating, Henry Nassar, it could be my best estimate here.
Ted Moore's on his way by train from Connecticut to Ohio State University.
We've got a little bit more to say about that.
If we're done, I'll read you through a little bit more about the things that connect.
What the hell was discussed?
I'm not worried about it.
Me, I just look at them.
I just try to march on it.
Shit was all about how do we get the facts out.
You know, segregated and how do we have a counter attack.
Dean, let me think.
Some way to get to him.
I don't think he's a bad guy.
I don't think so.
He's dumb.
You know, he's scared, but he's not bad.
You don't agree?
They followed through this, and God thought, he's a bull rock band, he's everything else.
What the hell is this stuff?
It doesn't matter what it is.
He's scared.
Who the hell wants to go to prison?
I agree.
He's scared.
Yes, sir.
He's scared about some information he might be reading about.
Boy, if you're on our side, who's playing?
Hey, Sheryl.
Hey, Sheryl.
But what really was interesting to me was that through the tilt of the transversal march on the left, those members I showed you, goddammit, they didn't talk about cover-up.
They never mentioned cover-up until then.
And then they said that that one's trying to blackmail us.
He's never mentioned it once.
They never mentioned the 320 or the 350.
They mentioned the goddamned thing.
It's a strange thing about the history.
Do you agree?
Yes, I do.
He's so sloppy.
How the hell are we going to get him there?
And I am licensed to stand on this paper and concern on this.
There was nothing negative about it.
You know, I don't mean to get her into, you know, I don't mean to hurt her, but I mean to point it to Dick and the rest.
Good God, this whole fabrication that we've met in broadly meetings, 35 meetings, about cover-ups is bullshit.
There ain't no meetings about cover-ups.
the uh look the fact of the matter is if we were spending our time
concerning ourselves into how not to violate the doctrine of separation of power.
That's what it was all about.
It wasn't about cover-up.
It wasn't about hate.
I wasn't trying to pair up anything.
That's right.
It was deemed that.
At some point, I had it in my notes.
Twenty-six.
Twenty-six?
Twenty-six.
I said, right at first, you told me.
Well...
He was still playing the game.
You would not have played if you were conducting the frustration.
You don't need it.
What happened on the 26th?
On the 26th, I said it.
I said, I have this in my office.
I called.
She looked at me.
She looked at me.
She said, I said, yeah, I moved the center this week.
And that was on the 26th of March.
And that was when, see the first time that I began to grow suspicious.
No.
was at a point when he reacted in a way, when I was raising Heldman, worried about the shield law and so forth.
And, well, then, in 1st March, and in a civil suit, they, the lawyers, subpoenaed the files of a lot of newsmen.
And I said, John, what the hell are they doing in this?
And his response to me was a racket.
Then as we moved into the end of the march, he was in a meeting or two in my office.
And he was a little bit red.
And I remember the day that we were sitting in here, I think it was about the 14th of March, before the press conference.
I was sitting in his office because I lived there and I had studied the past three years.
And his responsiveness and the way he was acting, in the back of my mind, said, not that I was suspicious of him,
But then I thought, this guy who I put all this trust in all this time is not as competent as I thought he was.
There was a mystery with him.
It took me longer.
I mean, first when he came in, he just promptly said that.
No, I know.
I didn't suspect him of any wrongdoing.
I just thought, began to suspect him of incompetence.
This is why I was convinced when we talked about it.
The problem and part of the thing is to remember it always grows yet in the crust of the leaf.
The fact that we met 35 times without covering it is totally false.
We've gotten that out and it's what we have.
All right.
Thank you.
No.
I'm not disappointed in them, though.
I think it's been a little longer.
Well, at least it'll be done in a short time.
It's funny to think about why it's been so long.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Nothing we can't handle except the micrometer and controller.
More or no.
Must go.
That's me.
I'm an expert.
No, the target that I picked is just John.
Well, but your question... What?
Did he tell me?
What did I say?
No, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
I just dictated that the 20th, Mr. Dean and Mr. Maher, from 1.42 to 2.31.
Okay?
Yes, sir.
Don't ask me about that, okay?
And I have a fortnight left.
Right.
I'll tell you about that.
No, no, not before.
Yes.
1247 to 130.
You got that?
Yes, sir.
That's right.
You make him give you that.
All right.
Yes, sir.
You don't have to get him.
You don't have to get him to 20.
Don't get him to 20.
I've got it here.
No.
Nothing more.
Nothing more.
14 to 90.
All right.
Okay.
Okay.
It's been a good day, though, huh?
Yes, sir.
This is a very interesting draft.
Wow.
It's a very interesting draft.
It ought to be prepared after the 18th.
That would be good.
There's some men in the front end of the meeting.
You apologize, huh?
I told you it was a goddamn draft.
There you go.
What does it show?
Oh, it's your 42nd.
It is a best of 18th.
And the reason, I suppose, that he didn't send the building, he didn't move it in that way, is because he was worried.
Of course, a break was through.
You see, I think we're going to put this thing out, right?
After we come here.
But then we decided, the day he came in with this, then we decided to go with it.
Now, now, now.
Now, now, now.
Thank you.
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