Conversation 045-015

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I just wanted to get your reaction as to how we handle the gray situation on this New York Times thing.

You want to think about it overnight or should we react right away or what?

I told Clint Eastwood I'd think about it overnight and discuss it with him in the morning, and I think we have at least that much time.

But I think, and I'm sick over it, because I think he's a decent man.

How can he really stay on?

I don't see how, Mr. President.

You're going to have to appoint a number two man as acting director.

I don't think he would have called for his resignation.

He should.

I think he would have called back.

I think you would alert him to what you're thinking so that he'd be prepared to submit it tomorrow.

Let me ask you this.

Rather than my doing it, I suggest that you ask Nick.

Would you mind discussing what's going on?

Not at all.

I think let's not put it in a context where I...

I understand.

I mean, I love him too, and I love all of you, but you know what I mean.

I want it to be in a way so that he doesn't like a man.

I agree with you.

And wouldn't you, if you were in such a position, prefer to have a dick friend?

I think he's an unfortunate, almost needless casualty.

Needless casualty doing a dumb thing.

Yes, sir.

I mean, why the hell did he destroy the damn thing?

I'll be damned if I know.

I don't know.

I don't know, and he doesn't know what was in it.

That's another part of the thing.

Well, any event.

Would you, if you wouldn't mind, when you talk to client East, if you would say, look, just a second here, just a second.

Somebody's come in.

I don't want to talk with her here.

Hold on.

Let me get to another phone.

Hold on.

Yes, sir.

Oh, yeah, I'm where I can talk now.

Very good.

The one point that I was going to ask you about is that what in the world is Gray going to say as to why he destroyed it?

You see, obviously, Ziegler will be pounded on that.

Well, you know, I talked to him about it this morning, as a matter of fact.

Yeah.

And he called about the story which indicated that, you know, he had my best plan.

He's been given the reports.

and indicated his concern, and I said, look, you know, I understand we're all going to be embarrassed, and he said, well, the only excuse I have, he says, I was a damn fool.

He said I had implicit confidence in Ehrlichman and Dean.

He had explicit confidence in Ehrlichman and Dean?

He had explicit confidence in Ehrlichman and Dean when they gave him documents and said they should be destroyed.

He didn't see any reason why he shouldn't.

Well, he can't say that Ehrlichman and Dean told him to destroy them, did he?

I mean, why would they...

See, that story, Henry, would stand up for him, I mean, apart from anything else.

Why would, for example, Ehrlichman and Dean call the director of the FBI over and say, look, here are some documents to destroy.

Why the hell did they destroy themselves?

No, sir.

As I understand it, he had a meeting scheduled with Ehrlichman.

Now, in what phase of this, I think perhaps in connection with the leaks or something of that nature.

I see.

And when he went over there, Dean was there.

And just in passing, they handed him the documents, as he recounts it, the whole manila envelope sealed, and said these were sensitive political documents, wholly unrelated to the case in Hunt's office, and they should be destroyed.

And that is what basically he's going to say, or has he said it?

I don't know whether he's going to say that or not, but that's what his testimony would be in the grand jury.

Yeah.

He was told, he says, that these documents were wholly unrelated to the Watergate and that they should be destroyed.

That's right.

I mean, if he leaves, you know what I mean, and so forth and so on, for him to say that, frankly, this story, in my view, simply doesn't

doesn't ring, from his standpoint, true.

You know what I mean?

Why in the world would Dean and or Ehrlichman call over the director of the FBI, hand them documents, and then say, take them because they're not related to Watergate and destroy them?

You see my point?

Well, I think that's true.

That's a screwball.

I know he was there in another matter, but that's a screwball story.

Well, you know, that's right.

But you know what Dean tells me makes it ring a little truer.

Dean tells me, and he told me as well before, Ehrlichman had told him to destroy these documents.

Dean says that Ehrlichman told Dean to destroy them.

That's right.

And Dean said, you know, God damn it, I wasn't going to do it.

That's the so-called Deep Six thing.

That's right.

And he, Dean, wasn't going to do it, so they both, in effect, gave it to Gray.

Right.

I don't know.

I'm not going to try to tell anybody to change the story and so forth.

That is, as I understand, we want the truth, but I just can't believe...

I just can't believe that anybody's...

I can't really believe that anybody's going to believe the director of the FBI was handed some documents and told to destroy them.

Yeah, he's going to come out looking awfully stupid, to say the least.

My God, yes.

And that he did.

That's right.

I mean, destroy them.

I mean, I bet you Edgar Hoover's got every noodle that anybody ever had around.

Afraid you're right.

Somewhere in his file.

Afraid you're right.

Right.

When will Gray make a statement just for guidance of our people here?

I have no idea.

You know, I haven't discussed this with him at all since it came out.

Well, uh...

I'll talk to Kind East and then we'll talk to Gray.

I'll tell you what you do, because basically, uh...

I mean, how far I want to get into this damn thing, I don't know, but I mean, I heard this, I think he was not insane story, but do you want to do anything, Mr. President, on this?

What should Ziegler say then?

Let me just say that on this point, your view.

I just see that that's our problem.

He said, well,

We can't say that we didn't.

I mean, we had some, you know, in other words, our investigation, the one that we've been undertaking since the 21st of March, we had information about this, but we haven't had the damn thing corroborated.

I mean, let me put it this way.

Ray has never told me this.

He's told you this.

Remember, he first told you, as I remember, Henry.

Nobody ever got him any documents.

That's right.

Later on, he said, yeah, I got some, but I destroyed him, right?

That's right.

So he's in sort of a tough position there, isn't he?

Although, on the other hand, that's something you don't...

I see your point.

You were investigating.

He may have forgotten.

That's right.

And, of course, the first time I asked him, I asked it very casually.

I see.

And, of course, one other conversation.

It was a casual conversation.

The second time I asked was more pointed.

And then he still said no.

Then the next day, you know, he said he refreshed his recollection.

The next day, he said, he refreshed his recollection and said, yes, I did put the documents in.

I was told to destroy them.

That's what Pat Gray now says.

Is that correct?

Yes, sir.

Well, I don't believe that.

I don't know whether...

The pride is when you say that the Dean and the Deep Six thing and so forth

You haven't had Ehrlichman.

I mean, you haven't had that corroborated yet because basically Ehrlichman was in the room when this happened.

And Ehrlichman, of course, knows the...

I'm going to have to talk to him about this and ask him.

The point that I make is this.

Whether or not...

Does Dean corroborate Gray's story?

That's one thing I'd like to know.

Dean say that in the presence of Ehrlichman, that he or Ehrlichman or both Thoroughbred, these are politically sensitive, unrelated to Watergate, and they should be destroyed.

Does Dean say that?

That's the whole point to say.

Generally, but, you know, I can't say.

I don't, well, let me say, let me say, let me say this on this for your information, because I question Dean, you know, about this, uh,

On the Sunday night he came to see you?

Yeah, after we'd had our talk.

I said this, and he just said, we gave the documents to Gray.

And that was that.

He didn't say that, but he never said we told him to destroy them.

You know, when his story to me, you know, at the very early time before this was even a celebrated cause, was that Ehrlichman told me to destroy them.

He didn't do it.

Right.

That's when he told me, God damn it, I wouldn't lie for Ehrlich.

Whatever I might do for the president.

Right, right, right, right, right.

So there is some corroboration of the destruction effect.

I see, I see.

But that was not done.

That's right.

The dean didn't do it.

That's right.

Incidentally.

May I ask, without reviewing the contents, did you get to the bottom of the Shepard mystery?

I haven't talked to him today yet, Mr. President.

Okay, fine.

He's in the grand jury.

Okay.

Incidentally, I, you know, a son of a bitch from Congressman Reese's office called me on that issue about disclosure of grand jury testimony, and I went around and around, you know, on the base without, you know, I just refused to discuss our conversations.

Right.

Except to say that I was not disclosing transcript or grand jury testimony to you.

Exactly.

Well, I mean, Reese might have thought that I was putting out the transcripts, huh?

No, no, I think he's really, you know, amped me on.

Let me say this.

One of the things that your record and my record is clear on is you can swear on a stack of Bibles that I have...

In fact, I've probably been over more backward than most people would have known.

I'm sure you have.

But no, on the Graham thing, I do not want to know.

That's right.

That's what I told him.

I said, I'm not giving it.

I'm not discussing the conversation with the president.

My direction.

All right.

On the Gray thing, it seems to me that Gray, if you should have your meeting with Gray immediately, the three of you, have him make a statement, however, until he, I don't know,

should even make one tonight.

I'm not sure I would react that soon.

I don't know, but at least that was Dick's feeling that maybe we shouldn't act tonight.

But under the circumstances with the destruction of the documents, even though it was done with no real intent, this is stupidity of an unbelievable degree.

And he'll have to resign and

Who's the second man over there?

Mark Feltz is the second man.

Yeah.

Let me say one thing, Mr. President.

You know, I don't give a damn whether I get that job or not.

You know, the presidency of the United States is maybe the toughest job in America.

I don't want to see anybody from the inside take that job.

Not permanently.

That's right.

No, no, it's got to be cleaned out.

Yes, sir.

It's got to be cleaned out.

But my point is, my point is, this is not the time.

Not the time.

I'm not ready to name Gray's successor.

I'm searching it out.

Yeah, I agree.

And so therefore, but the point is that Gray leaves.

I wanted to get that word in.

Yeah, but the point that I want to get across here that in naming anybody to succeed Gray, I've got to do it on the basis of an acting director.

Yes.

At this point.

And I think we're going to have to make that move in the morning.

That's the point, but...

How can we leave it now?

Can you have a meeting with 610?

You and Dick, I don't know, can meet with Gray, can you?

Is he over there?

Well, you know, we'll meet with Kleindies.

I've talked to Kleindies now.

I think he just left.

Oh, I see.

And then I'll walk up and see Gray and see if we can't fight it until tomorrow morning.

Gray think about it overnight or prepare this?

He's got to think about it and he shouldn't make a...

I don't think that Gray should pop off with a statement tonight.

All right.

Doesn't that make sense?

It does to me.

After all, because basically he's going to have to say the situation is now what is your suggestion as to what the...

Anybody else?

I mean, isn't it best to simply say we're investigating the matter?

I mean, after all, this is one of the things you are investigating, isn't it?

That's right.

This whole damn deep six thing, remember, I told you to look into this and find out, and you haven't even... As a matter of fact, you haven't even had Dean's statement under oath yet, have you?

That's right, we have not.

And you haven't had Ehrlichman's under oath.

That's right.

So that's how the thing sorts out at the moment.

Well, finally, one thing else.

What about your meeting with Dean?

It's just about time to get that done with and get this thing rolling.

How's that staying?

When are you going to meet with him?

Well, you know, we had... His attorneys.

The problem I have with this, if you see, with this sort of thing, the problem I have is, I mean, you say, well, what do you do about Eric?

The question is, what do you do about Pete?

You don't agree with that.

Therefore, the point is that my problem is one of proof.

Yeah, I know, I know.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

What I'm referring to, though, is in terms of when you are going to get... Now, I understand, following our conversation, that the attorneys for Haldeman and Ehrlichman are going to meet with the U.S. attorneys and arrange for the informal interview, which you suggested was the proper procedure.

It's going to be done very soon, I understand.

I suppose, perhaps by Monday, at least, if...

certainly if they're available.

And then, so we'll get that on the way.

And then, of course, it'll be available for the grand jury after they've had that meeting.

But getting back to the Dean thing, it seems to me that you've got to get Dean in there too, Henry.

I mean, you've got to decide the Dean thing.

And let me just say one thing.

On that, the decision is yours if he comes to you.

But don't be concerned about what he calls any, what do you call it, Trump card or blank check and so forth.

There's not going to be any blackmail here.

Don't you agree?

My problem's wholly one of proof, Mr. President.

What's that?

My problem's wholly one of proof.

I got Magruder, you know, he's in effect admitted.

He's ready to plead.

Right.

That means I've got Magruder head-to-head against Dean.

Right.

You know, until I can... Are Magruder's and Dean's stories very moody?

No, but if I have to use Magruder against Dean, that's basically all I have.

You know, Dean insists on going to trial.

So we're trying to bring Dean around to the point where he'll plead.

You want Dean to plead.

Then when I got the two of them pleading, then I got... Then you got a case.

Then I got the case against the other principals.

That's right.

Erlichman and Haldeman.

We're still short on them.

I know you are.

You're still short on both Erlichman and Haldeman, but you've got to get...

I understand, and I'm not trying to tell you how to run the case.

The only thing I'm trying to see is how I can still sit here with...

I mean, I'm wrestling with the Erlichman-Haldeman problem naturally, as you just...

I also have to wrestle with the dean problem because I'm aware of information, as you are, of these arms length conversations.

Yes, sir.

I'm aware of those conversations, you see, and I cannot move without frankly jeopardizing your prosecution, can I?

I think that's great at this point.

If it isn't, Tony.

I mean, your point is?

It's hard to be dogmatic.

I think we have to maintain this position until we can see a little more clearly.

All right.

And then I'll wait for you.

But I'll say that Dean's decision ought to be made soon.

And remember, there's not going to be any blackmail or nothing of that sort involved here.

I want the bottom of this damn thing.

And I want you to understand that

And don't be concerned about blackmailing anybody, certainly.

Not the president, you can be sure.

President's men, we all know that he can try a little of that.

They say, well, they all knew about the cover-up and so forth.

All right, fine.

And don't let him blackmail you.

Don't you be a bit concerned.

I mean, let me put out this.

He now has about as much, I'm afraid...

with what has happened here.

He's got about as much credibility as Magruder.

Much.

That's right.

Problem, isn't it?

Well, that's part of the problem, yes, sir.

That's one of the reasons we'd like him to plead.

You'd like him to plead.

Okay.

Well, let me know about anything that you and Dick said.

Call me right back.

We will indeed.