Conversation 461-010

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

I think this will be the best place for us to photograph over here and sit down.

Well, you've been on quite a bit of, doing a lot of travel, and I understand.

Yes, and all of us are going to come to you soon.

That's fair.

I'd love to see you try this stuff.

I'd love to see it on.

Thank you.

We're going to have to go from one buckle to ten buckles.

...concentrate on that, and each other, rather, on our own problems.

So sad.

It's just sad.

I mean, if there's any forms of platform, there will always be something.

I can see that the President is doing his best to pass over to the civilian as soon as possible the administration which no military, no real military would like to keep.

But he is sending his people back again because of Western Pakistan.

situation, more than the other.

More than Mujibur Rahman.

When I was there he was making a lot of decisions.

Mujibur Rahman in reality, although he talks about rationalization, he is not a leftist.

He is an anti-leftist.

Folio of nationalization is easy to speak about because all of the big properties in this particular part of East Pakistan belong to those who are from West Pakistan.

So it is a kind of nationalism, not leftism.

Barik Muto is the rich boy with the claim to glory from socialism and very irresponsible statement.

Very ambitious.

And now that he sees that in the federal government, too, he cannot be prime minister.

Doesn't his wife push him some, too?

It's a specific priority.

I'm sure he knows his concern.

Do you remember?

Yes, of course.

Very, very...

I remember.

I see.

Well, I've met her.

He wasn't there when I was on one of my visits four or five years ago.

She was there.

I think she's...

She's very ambitious, but so is he.

And from his 80 deputies, I understand that about 60 or 62 are quite wealthy, landowners or otherwise.

This type of young man with a whiskey glass in one hand talking about socialism.

Let me ask you, what do you think is going to happen there?

Is it going to come apart?

There is one thing.

East Pakistan is very much united.

It is extraordinary.

There were also foreign governors when I was there who lived inside the country who explained to me, they said, in every village, in every land that you have the same rules.

It's very unified, rich and poor.

They are all...

behind what is a very popular nationalist street.

He has achieved many things, but more moderate than some of his colleagues.

And then everything has come together, including even this great disaster, the cyclone, to give them this exaggerated martyr season, that they have been treated badly, that all their money has gone to the West, because the West is much more advanced, I think, but it has to do something with the taxes which they pay to them.

It's all of these people who are like that.

It has to do with other things.

It is the people coming through.

It's like the people are more, it's like your people in your country are more vigorous people than the people in the South.

Yes, in the States it's kind of like that.

I know.

It's an indifference between East and West.

But now it is a type of great emotion.

They feel that they should now go to the class.

So I don't think it would be easy for anyone to stop that.

They, something, it would have to be given to them.

And, of course, some of autonomy, some of the best form of autonomy will have to be given because otherwise it would be very much... Now, there is also the interest because they want to monitor in the day to day because

Even to bring building materials, it has to come with stones and things like that.

And they're not really stones anymore, because it's all silt that has accumulated for thousands of years.

And even that has to come with buying shit.

Building material, coal, which is being bought in India, will be plentiful.

So they are interested in having less trouble.

But in India, their government is very more difficult than in Pakistan.

They are always sort of there on the line.

The Chinese have simply penetrated.

The pro-Chinese, but the Chinese do nothing in Pakistan.

We were afraid before the elections that they were laying out, because that is about it, which is easy for them to do.

They were not.

But in India, the same part of India, let's just say the Bangkok area,

So you're saying that the poor are the same people?

Yes, it's the worst.

It's the worst.

Yes, I understand the population problem, how the people die in the same country.

It's too bad.

In Pakistan, we have a separate government, but I'm sure that you, sir, in your administration,

He could do something by betraying them.

I think very much that Gaglia is a good man.

He is a good man.

He's a temporary man.

He said it.

He might stay over, because during these elections he was so fair that even the opposition stopped criticizing him, what used to be his opposition.

He is a fair man.

But they like very much.

They feel very isolated.

Like I said, I have no friends in the world.

So they have this marked isolation spirit all over.

For instance, in the recent difficulties I was there, one Indian people were very severe.

But first the Indian asked for 35 seconds.

First they had asked the expatriate to give back to hijackers a compensation.

Before Pakistan had the time to answer, they really liked it.

They said, no, it's all over my territory.

Before they could think of some international law to deal with that, they were very severe about it.

They had a deal when I was there, a day before.

And the President, who had received me, said that, yes,

The message is being delivered really well because it was a direct return to the importance of all of us in Pakistan and because the faith of the Indians were much stronger.

She saw it as a big thing.

Perhaps they thought it might be for the election, but they were afraid that she might go so much further than she did after the election.

So when he complained, I said he had no interest in my defense, especially if I told him.

That afternoon I went to visit your ambassador, Mr. Bauman, and the British High Commissioner.

to say that, of course, it was a matter of time, because they had earlier what the IAEA had to do to know that it was wanted to refer to, and they were waiting for an answer.

But they said that the next day they would go home and explain that the United States, certainly, and the United Kingdom were very divided.

They did want a confrontation.

on your side that you did not want to have a United States element to the country, which is already quite better than to anybody.

Probably the two would unite to throw stones against the USSR.

But when I told the Pakistanis that the ambassador in the British Central Commission would come to visit them, that they were interested, that they were worried, it soothed, it gave them an idea of breaking their isolation.

So I saw that the first thing, it is important to show it possible at this difficult time.

some closeness of interest to Pakistan.

And the second very important thing is that those are the good ones.

You are doing something.

And five years have passed.

It's very difficult to really put down advice there, but there are some other times you don't even understand us.

Some of the other times.

Thank you.

You can see that they are cannibalizing, of course, the trucks taking the camera in from one direction to the other, and the radios from another one.

So that whole army is going down this hill.

They've got some kind of two divisions from the Chinese.

Now they are buying a few village, but as an army in 1965, they were better equipped than the Indian army, not quantitative, not qualitative, not qualitative, not qualitative, not qualitative.

They could defend themselves very well.

Now they are in a very bad shape, like people of ISIS.

It would make a big difference, I know, if you could still...

I know you all know the difficulties we have in Congress, Mr. President, but if you could do something to make those difficult... Well, we have, as you know, moved on the objections of Congress and final objections that we've moved on the State Department problems.

And I feel that anything that can be done to maintain Pakistan as a viable country is extremely important.

They're good people.

They're strong men.

People like Yahya are responsible leaders.

And we will consider this proposition at this time.

At this time, of course, the mayor had bluffs because of the constitutional problems.

It will take a very long time.

You shouldn't think that everything is settled, and it's difficult to look at the facts.

After my trip there, when you're on the spot, the audience is so different from us.

He has told himself that the Turkish policy is very honest and I am not going to get into it.

It's the only thing I'm committed to now.

So something will have to be done.

But what something is, nobody knows.

And the timing, nobody knows.

And Karyan himself, he said, don't listen to this politician.

He promised so much.

Do you know politics very well?

I can tell from this brief conversation.

Your analogy, your description of these rich young lawyers,

marking in one hand and a red flag in the other.

It's the tragedy of the world.

They don't know what they do.

They really are putting a rope around their own necks.

It's a similar touch.

You have some problems there.

The Dutch students are more wealthy.

And they're more wealthy now.

It's like many of our more destructive leftists here.

They are not from the poor families.

They're from the rich.

Or not the rich so much as the upper class, upper middle class.

And so they...

They have, perhaps, not too much to do.

They have no problems in terms of having to work to survive.

So they plan a bomb, you know.

How do you feel about Turkey?

I have – we – as you know, we have been discussing the possibility of a visit to the extension.

There have been reasons why it can't go on, and I've been pleased to tell the President that whenever Prime Minister – whenever the time is propitious, we are ready.

But the point is that Turkey is – I have great admiration for that.

I've been – for going back many years, I was there in 1953, and this was – I, of course, have received

I was vice president of the year.

I was there again on other occasions.

I can't tell you how much I admire the strength of your people, your strength, your courage.

I know there are problems right there.

I don't know how to survive.

The basis is some.

There's much other to it.

The basis is not that.

There's much other to it than your common sense.

The difficulty in Turkey is not with the workers or with the economic problems at all.

The workers are frustrated in Turkey.

They've been, most of the, the majority of the trade unions have been trained by George Binni and Mr. Brown, so I'm going to go ahead.

The people at Binni knows that you have said that, and I was pleased to know that's one place where

And the U.S. principles, there is a split of small movements.

Of course.

They have done a very good job.

The trouble in Turkey is with the so-called intellectuals, which is the assistant professors, the other professors that we have here.

That's right.

The fact that education really is a problem in the U.S.

And with us sitting in Alcatraz today, there's thousands of the likes of us.

We're good beings today, but, you know, throughout the world, there's a minute, you know, a minute, frankly, that is taught in schools that revolutions come from the masses, the downtrodden masses.

They never move.

Revolutions.

And destructive revolutions, not the ones that we basically build.

almost very much from the, what would you call, the assaulted intellectual, one who thinks in terms of, one who cannot face up to the hard, ragged way of peace and change.

He will not face up to it.

He will not get in the ring politically to try to accomplish his goals.

And so he throws up his hands in violent frustration.

As a matter of fact, the intellectual tends to be somewhat feminine in his reaction.

And I don't say that in any arrogation of femininity in its best sense.

But he tends to be very emotional and not pragmatic at all, and speaks in terms of sloganizing the rest, and emotional.

with reactions that have no relevance to which Marxists they are.

And that's true of all the truth here, it's true of all over the world, and it's been true throughout history.

It's just really not the Marxists who take such a distance.

We can say that's true for our Marxists, I mean the old Marxists.

And this they had a plan.

They had a program.

ruthless way they went out and put it across.

The modern intellectual has no plan.

I mean, he's a pure seeker after power.

And will not do it through the system.

Would you agree with him on this point?

No, it's exacting.

I mean, you can respect anybody who wants to change the system.

And as a matter of fact, you can respect somebody who wants to change the system through violent means.

I mean, like the old... And I... And...

But what we have is the same problems.

Let me say, as far as Centro is concerned, now you've been here a year or beyond here, do you believe that it serves a useful purpose?

in terms of cooperation or something, so what do you think?

I think it is not for the commitments which are set to the American side, not for the kind of meetings that we have, it is not, but this being close together and the umbrella, I'm using the word used by the Shah of Iran, and also in 10 days, he said the umbrella of center is very useful

Yes.

Because now that the British are withdrawing from the small state camps in the Persian Gulf, if he wants to have any kind of presence, whether British or United States, he cannot understand to have some naval exercise.

So, of course, I just can't tell whether I said help or not.

And then this idea of Turkey allies helps.

Well, you have Turkey, Iran, which help with both.

Turkey has NATO also.

Turkey's got its own side.

But also, Turkey's a country that sprangles the two of us.

That's the main interest, yes, Mr. President, is to keep the other secret companies, to keep Iran and Pakistan.

Well, you certainly have, I can assure you, colleagues and my own personal support.

We realize that much of this has more to do with

Tomorrow, I'm calling for cosmetics.

But after all, cosmetics, in theory, you show me the woman without cosmetics.

and she passed by and she, at least they are not paying attention.

And that's the very fact, and it's more of a concern, I think, too, because of some of the things or the cases may be.

And these consultations, it's just important that we keep, that we have methods and visual lines of communication between Turkey and,

The cap center is terribly important.

If there's some way we can keep it in, I don't know.

That's a problem, isn't it?

But there can be that.

Oh, do you think it can?

Well, I'm absolutely committed to that.

I think it's very important.

I am not among the case, and there are some, among our foreign policy observers who believe that the cap center inevitably is going to come apart.

As a matter of fact, they're probably wishing it.

They're pushing it because you know there is a phobia in many intellectual circles in this country that everything that India does is good and everything happens and it does its best.

I do not agree with them.

I do not believe in the New York Times or some of our papers.

It is not true.

I know the people of both.

I respect the people of both.

Both have a right to survive.

and survive in their own way.

And that's why I reversed, you know, I had to reverse the previous policy, and even in this small country, not in Pakistan, and we're going to continue to be as generous as we can be.

That's good news.

I hope you communicate to President Yankees, because he knows how strongly, personally, I feel, and I know his problems are enormous.

You don't want to hurt him, hopefully, to the extent you can.

How we can is difficult, and the reasons you're going to learn.

Chief Justice is coming in, and we'd like to say hello, but you know our Chief Justice, the Supreme Court?

Mr. Berger?

Yeah, we'd like to say hello to you.

He's coming in.

We're having our Law Day announced on today.

When one travels around Europe, you see your people, you know, and you're right.

Our Chief Justice is here for one day and also today.

And today, he's toured the very central countries.

For the moment, he's an international figure, but basically he's security that we make.

That's right.

If you're a homemaker or...

I've never been in my life.

I'll tell you what I can tell you.

I don't want to be a strong experience.

Are you a golfer?

No, where are you going?

I'm sorry.

Think about it.

No, no.

Get ready to be ready on time.

Oh, yes, yes.

I'll get there.

Oh, keep him, keep him busy.

I don't know about this.

I'm down to it.

They call it canopy breaks.

It's long.

But it isn't good.

It's long.

He said, you know, he looked at me.

He said, I've never seen it back in my life.

That's all I can say.

He said, just take the guns.

You must take the guns.

I'm the most successful guy I've ever met.

I haven't had much fun in years.

They tear you apart.

You just don't want to work anymore.

You just want to sit.

And where does that happen?

It's an attraction.

Ooh, attraction.

I was an attraction.

It wasn't until Dave Warren almost killed me.

And I was in Florida taking a vacation with my ex-brother.

Well, I'll see your team in here.

I'll see your team in the court this evening, sir.

I got a certain credit for it because they've been around for three times.

They're around, say, 67, 68, 67 turned, 68 turned, 69 turned.

And I think the federal court's a little bit more in favor of the state's interference in state court.

We're going down to Williamsburg, you know, and I'm on the next day after.

You're on the opening day.

Yeah.

Is it a good idea?

We don't have all the accommodations to get there.

They, uh, they just picked up the impact, the impact of this in your county and Johnston County, which is amazing.

I know that.

And I'm going to include my signature to be on the second day of the proposal, the balance of time and form.

some form of national center to serve all the states on everything that they can do.

Just like we have a federal institution center here in Washington, D.C.

But one thing we have got to do, we've got to do something to speed up criminal justice in this country.

We don't.

I mean, the people here, they operate on state and federal levels.

That's it.

You know, the federal thing is not really the problem.

It's just, look at that case on California.

The thing is going on, and it's crazy.

The one in Connecticut with those crazy eight boardrooms.

It cost a million dollars, all the labor and the prosecution.

And in Britain, it takes six weeks maximum.

And three weeks are a big deal.

Now, there's got to be a 90-year relationship here.

So, of course, they've been in charity in no time.

I'm going to allude to a little bit, but very little.

But I think you could.

I'm not being too humble about it.

I think you can.

You know, the way you would do it, you could say, without, of course, trying to flood it with that.

It has been noted that in a country where

which has a proud tradition, you know, respect for the rights of the Jews.

They do this.

We do not suggest we can do this, but maybe we can take it and try to get the

How is the situation with regard to your colleagues and so forth?

I'm going to send Blackwell a note and say he doesn't understand.

He says, I'm not saying anything about it.

He says, I don't understand.

What a burden for all of you.

And this is true, I think, of John Harlan, although, frankly, I haven't talked to John Mitchell only on her ground at all.

I'm going to see if he has.

See if John gives you an appointment for it.

Of course, I'm asking him.

John's a good man, but he's a nice gentleman.

All right, can I get these other people to come over here?

But if you like what you know, that's better than what I was doing.

That's better than what I was doing.

I'm not so frustrated now.

I can do something about it.

Well, as Ray said, you're at the top of the greasy pole.

So, it's a little like the president now.

That's right.

Well, where everybody just knocks the crowd in.

You know, they eat on this side and that side, right?

So, you know...

We have the Secretary of State.

for several million witnesses i've been on a lot of television and the paper that's available for anybody tops

Well, you know, I guess I'm dying of it, so you get them along, that's right.

Are you running a chance to be at Williamsburg?

No, sir.

I'm not going to have a conflict like John Shane.

I was thinking at one time, I ought to do the bar, the American bar that I have this year, I guess.

You're going to come to London.

Is it going to be London this year, sir?

It's been five years.

July 14 to 20, but this isn't the time to talk about it.

I'm not going to.

There's already a formal invitation to you already.

There's no white house.

Just go ahead and talk about it.

It's an open season.

I'll try.

President, she just sparked my attention right now.

To come in the July 14th.

No, sir, July the 7th.

To come to London.

Well, don't ask me to come to New York.

You're most welcome in London.

We thought the view of your visit there last year, that would be asking too much of you.

Chief Justice is making his state judiciary message in Georgia.

He also is giving a major formal address to a large Chief Justice that is going to be changed.

The general is speaking to the Chief Justice.

We'll consider one or the other, but they might just fit in with some others.

They might fit in a little better than they are, but we'll see.

The letter is amending on the dates of July 14th to 20th.

On the dates of July 14th to 20th, we say the same thing.

Now, I'll sign it with three hands.

Press it.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Wait a minute, we've got a couple of tickets.

Oh, this is good.

We've got a really terrible lockdown.

I want to have you to watch.

I have to go.

Oh, wholesome.

Thank you.

This is a great idea.

I want to go to the cold tank.

Appreciate it.

Fine.

You're going to make a good statement.

So, bye.

Thank you.

of what is in his mind a NASA.

Actually, his job was one in New York City, and he was introduced to the GS-17-15.

He just may mention this to you soon.

Just to say hello as old friends and neighbors of Justin.

Just very fast.