Nixon, Haldeman & Price on Public Relations and Vietnam War

54:28He said, he called me, and I wasn't in my office when he called.
54:29I returned it just a couple minutes later.
54:32He said, I can call the president.
54:35He said earlier he was tied up.
54:38He said, tell him not to call me back.
54:40All I really was telling him was to tell him I felt the Salisbury article came out very well.
54:46Primarily because it gave you, you understand the president better.
54:51He revealed him as a man and made you sympathetic to his viewpoint.
54:55So that was his reaction to it.
54:58Then he said, we've had a meeting on this NSC thing, and there's no need to have a meeting this afternoon.
55:09So he had called Henry, apparently, earlier.
55:14Oh, yeah, Henry didn't want to be in.
55:17Henry had only agreed to put the meeting back on as a result of Rogers wanting it yesterday.
55:22Apparently, Rogers now decided he didn't want it.
55:24Did Henry go to look at it?
55:29That's pretty good.
55:31He looks like a cat cartoon or something.
55:35He did.
55:37I just remembered, just as you were leaving last night, Henry had sent another bitch back to town.
55:44That's the NFC group.
56:05Come on in, sit down.
56:07What do you mean?
56:17Hey, I believe... No, I'm sorry.
56:37Tito.
56:38Tito is the name.
56:44Tito is the name.
56:51Uh...
56:52The, uh... Why, Tito... Why, uh... Why, Tito...
57:04uh... uh...
57:31Mainly about the war.
57:45How many words do you know?
57:49Two thousand words.
57:50You said a little bit less than a thousand words.
57:53At this point, about two thousand.
57:56Well, kind of a little.
57:57The next thing is that I thought it would be interesting to talk about is the feeling told to people with regard to... Let me tell you how I feel about the glass and how they are.
58:12They were the top 10% of the class, 17 out of 250, which is a very important accomplishment.
58:16And they already had a commission for a year, an AD commission, you know, without going to an analyst, which is, of course, a very high honor.
58:31You will, of course, not take it.
58:33I will not.
58:33Well, you can climb down.
58:34And you've got a family to wish for.
58:39But what I wanted to get across, basically, we have to understand that these kids, like, they all hate the Navy.
58:45You know, let's begin with that, most of them.
58:49They hate the service, and they hate it for the same reasons that we all despise the service when we work in it.
58:55I mean, it's a, these are the right kids, you know, for school, for college graduates, and the rest of them.
59:02But often, when they go to college, they don't take any service.
59:07And they see the war winding down, so they don't have the fear, they don't hate it for the reason that some, the fear, well, I'm going to Vietnam and get my tail shot on, this and that so much.
59:18These guys all know as far as the Navy's concerned, the war's over in Vietnam.
59:23The likelihood of any of that being captured in Vietnam is very, very remote.
59:27As you know, as you probably know, all naval activities now are turned over to the South Indian Navy.
59:34That's a big deal.
59:35So what was involved here is, very frankly, you're just taking a tree or a dog that flies, and these guys have got to run around, you know.
59:43One of the things we used to do in the service, and they raised it, but I didn't.
59:47I remember when I was a young lawyer, it was terribly degrading to make the victim or somebody else, you know, make a loss.
1:00:00These things we all have to do to put it back to us.
1:00:09And even though, I mean, pretty far apart from the occupation of the Great War, you know, but the three years was probably dandruffed in from all the citizens.
1:00:21I mean, any kind of time away, sometimes, whatever.
1:00:24By the way, what I'm really getting at is something else here.
1:00:28What I want to get across to them really is a sense of, which I think you've got here, the sense of what here we understand.
1:00:37This is hard.
1:00:37I mean, you mean it's hard for you to face three years of boredom.
1:00:44Boredom is a good word for anything.
1:00:46That's what it will be for most of them.
1:00:51I'm sure they'll think about their lost years.
1:00:56And also, we must understand that this is something that we're doing.
1:01:15It needs to be done.
1:01:19These are not lost years.
1:01:23Now, I have taken out what I believe you've taken out of me, and it's that sometimes it gets a little bit harder to put in.
1:01:56A little of that, but leading into the why you, why the piece was briefed for justice.
1:02:20Let me see if I can get it to the point.
1:02:22I think it's...
1:02:23I'm still scared of this thing.
1:02:29I should probably see it in perspective and think it's worthwhile.
1:02:37What do you feel, right?
1:02:38You've read it.
1:02:38I think this is worth saying.
1:02:48It's a kind of thing that we want to do.
1:02:49So we just give a few remarks.
1:02:52That's what we want to do.
1:02:53I mean, you see what I'm talking about.
1:02:54I can't talk to you specifically.
1:02:55Firstly, really what it turns on is who you're addressing, whether you're addressing the graduating class in Newport, the younger generation, or the country, which is torn by knowledge and so forth.
1:03:04It's more in the graduating classes period.
1:03:08That's what I'm trying to address.
1:03:10Well, that does put a different twist on it, doesn't it?
1:03:13Yeah.
1:03:13It isn't addressing me.
1:03:14That's why I took out the section on the graduating classes that the generation had, so forth and so on.
1:03:20Young people kind of, the black people that have to go through the agonist service.
1:03:32All right.
1:03:33I think that point is one that is well worth thinking about.
1:03:36Everybody says the draft is horrible, this is terrible, and we have to maintain all these forces.
1:03:40Awful that we have to maintain, that we have to handle leadership.
1:03:43You can't say that to anybody.
1:03:45You're going to say it to very sophisticated people.
1:04:01In terms of what the years mean to them personally, of course, the graduating class at Newport is different from the average kid who's going into the draftee in the Army.
1:04:14There's about two of these, technically, on the graduating class at Newport.
1:04:20All he did is postpone.
1:04:21He postponed, but he's got three years.
1:04:23The guy in the draft, he's only got two.
1:04:27And it's the same as the other.
1:04:28He got an envelope in the seats, too, enlist to avoid the draft.
1:04:31A trigger to avoid the draft for two years.
1:04:33And he doesn't really do the same things.
1:04:35He's got even that twice.
1:04:36And this is about the volunteer army.
1:04:38He stated, well, we don't have a volunteer army.
1:04:4070% are enlisted.
1:04:41That's just the basic question here.
1:04:43They wouldn't be enlisted.
1:04:44It would be 20% if they didn't have the draft, basically.
1:04:47The people who are graduating in Newport will get a lot more out of the service, personally, than the average draft team.
1:04:55Oh, I get your point.
1:04:57Yeah, yeah.
1:04:57Well, I'll argue that point.
1:04:59Maybe with a demand.
1:05:01Yeah, I mean, it's capability.
1:05:02I'll argue those kinds of things.
1:05:03Yeah, you've got to stop and think of the ratings, right?
1:05:06You know, I know the kind of guys that were in my office, and let's face it, they were all sort of national educations.
1:05:15You know, today they have a little bit more.
1:05:17Maybe they got a couple years of high school.
1:05:19They didn't know anything.
1:05:22And frankly, when they leave, they aren't going to be doing anything very important anyway.
1:05:29These guys are people that really, that set their sights much higher.
1:05:35I put it this way, the enlisted guy,
1:05:42See, I think the service is a much less difficult for the enlisted man to whip the enlisted man, as we think of it in the Navy, than it is for the officer.
1:05:56For the officer, it's a terribly, degrading, difficult thing.
1:06:01I mean, in a network who have the potential of lawyers and doctors and poets and writers and so forth in our government, they've got crap.
1:06:09I mean, he goes to the fancy guy that was going to go out and be a truck driver, and he's listening to those things that come out of his mouth.
1:06:15Maybe he's a truck driver, or maybe he's a cleric, or maybe he's a service station operator.
1:06:20He's one of the 70, 50 that would be in the workforce.
1:06:22But he isn't the follow-up, usually, that has all that much ambition.
1:06:27or all that much capability.
1:06:29I don't think it's as hard on him, in other words.
1:06:31He loses a lot, particularly on the money side.
1:06:33He hurts that money, but no, he gets some travel.
1:06:39It's the kind of guy that might never get out of his state.
1:06:42I'll put it this way.
1:06:43I don't think the service, to be perfectly frank with you, does much good for a man of officer capability.
1:06:50I regret it.
1:06:50I regret it because it's just another restriction.
1:06:56I think it could, frankly, for some of the enlisted, it could take some of those people who are enlisted men and women, and letting them out is a good thing.
1:07:07I mean, it's just the Blacks that keep that out.
1:07:11It's good for them, but I've seen a lot of the whites, the poor whites, the others, and so forth, and getting them the sense of discipline, responsibility, and all that sort of thing, to come out standing a little bit more in rank, rather than closing up.
1:07:28Let's get away from that.
1:07:29The main point is whether you feel
1:07:35Let me do this.
1:07:36I'll get it back, and you can have a brief run-in with my direction center.
1:07:42And both of you take a look at it to see if it feels right.
1:07:44If it feels right, really.
1:07:45Because you can't, we're always talking to the country, right?
1:07:49But we want to, we're not.
1:07:50The country's listening.
1:07:52I'm not too concerned about the class.
1:07:55The way the class is, it's getting a few remarks.
1:07:59First, I guess most of what you originally had in mind for this was in the Sulzberger interview, I think, today.
1:08:06Yeah, some of it.
1:08:12These are just my general views.
1:08:14He had some of them.
1:08:17I thought they came up very well.
1:08:18Yeah, but don't consider the Sulzberger interview doesn't, because nobody reads the Sulzberger interview and how a lot of people hear some of what the President says.
1:08:26Right.
1:08:28Well, maybe at least, I don't know how well-sold the reporters are, but to the extent that he got anything that was accurate, I think he's a very good reporter on the veterans.
1:08:44A great deal of wishing.
1:08:45I probably gave the same thing that I gave to you over the phone I called you.
1:08:50I haven't seen cuts on it yet.
1:08:52If they're not going to leave us all, they're going to leave us both.
1:08:59That audience is an audience of about 150,000.
1:09:28So we're not talking about that.
1:09:30Forget that.
1:09:30We're not talking about that.
1:09:31We're talking about the country always.
1:09:33So that's why.
1:09:35Don't worry about that.
1:09:35Is there anything good in the Sulzer or anything good that I haven't got here?
1:09:39Well, a lot of it is in here.
1:09:41I don't know what you're thinking now.
1:09:48All right.
1:09:49When you see what you said, why don't you take another look and see if it has a nice feel for it and we'll figure it out.
1:09:55Because the point needs to be made twice.
1:09:56If we get as good of a soldier as they're going to be, let's make it again.
1:10:00They don't get it the first time.
1:10:05Nobody really always says they don't get it until four times.
1:10:09I doubt it.
1:10:11We were thinking then, you were talking about shortening it, cutting it back down,
1:10:17I didn't cut it.
1:10:18I cut about 25%.
1:10:19So it's 15 minutes, which is long.
1:10:21Anybody can watch 15 minutes.
1:10:24The main point is, though, I want you to read it as a field.
1:10:29Again, you know, even a detector to see if you...
1:10:35I don't want it to...
1:10:40It has a nice spiritual at the end, which I think you've always said about me.
1:10:45Billy Graham, Billy's the only person who tells me to quote the Bible.
1:10:50I read the Bible too once.
1:10:52I don't know what to think.
1:10:55But everybody else has quoted the Bible so I might as well.
1:10:57Is that out of the Bible?
1:11:02Are you sure?
1:11:03Or is that out of the cross?
1:11:04Or Christ's?
1:11:04No, that's Isaiah.
1:11:06Yes.
1:11:09You know, if you use the word prophet, though, it could be one of all these people.
1:11:14I could say Isaiah.
1:11:17No, no, no.
1:11:18No, I think the prophet's much better.
1:11:21I don't confuse people.
1:11:22They'll go searching around.
1:11:24It's very true.
1:11:25It's a nice stuff.
1:11:31You'd like to take a whack?
1:11:35And then what would you like to do in terms of when you'd want to work on it?
1:11:38Oh, I think you ought to get this, frankly.
1:11:41I have heard it was on Cyclone Williams for tomorrow, so I would say they'd like to see this around Freed Block today.
1:11:51But actually, you haven't much to do.
1:11:55You just took a give-and-see kind of thing.
1:12:01the kind of changes that I think is more important.
1:12:10technical points like ours, rather than the war was dragging us down.
1:12:15Our involvement in Southeast Asia is coming to an end.
1:12:18We have to be more precise.
1:12:24And then, rather than out of the blood and the bitterness and the testimony, we absolutely ought to be sick, but not out of the sacrifice, but out of the blood, you see.
1:12:32Out of the sacrifice and so forth.
1:12:36And then where we have these, just give me some thoughts, that when war came, when war struck upon us, when it came, we fought.
1:12:48I don't like to feel that young Americans met the challenge.
1:12:52Just all of these seem like small changes, but they get more of a challenge than I want.
1:12:58And then I take out the department.
1:13:01The sacrifices have been great.
1:13:03I know that those who question the wisdom of the Adom War and consider these sacrifices unbearable, I don't want to go into all that.
1:13:10I contended it so often.
1:13:12But we do it, well, in an oblique way, anyway, here.
1:13:15And then I take all that out next, down to the bottom of the next page.
1:13:19In other words, I go from there to page four where I say, when force is rewarded,
1:13:24The last two sentences, you got that?
1:13:27You know where we are?
1:13:29In other words, strike, strike and sacrifice, as I've been saying, strike there, and you strike all the way down to plan for some reward.
1:13:37It's in the last paragraph, the middle of the last paragraph, the cost of peace and the only alternative to war is tyranny.
1:13:48See, that picture's nice, where it was previously.
1:13:53I take off, for example, I understand some of the sentiments behind it, and I am sympathetic.
1:13:57I do not sympathize.
1:13:58I do understand, but I'm not sympathetic.
1:14:01I think that's the difference of the matter.
1:14:04Well, it's true.
1:14:05I can understand anybody, but when you say you sympathize, that indicates agreement, and I have all agreement.
1:14:12I understand and I agree.
1:14:18And I add here, do not propose a deal.
1:14:20I don't want to get the idea that we're giving up on the idea that the largest fleet or the biggest armies are the greatest air power and the most missiles.
1:14:28That would certainly hold the flap of Jackson and a lot of other pieces.
1:14:32But what I do is simply add a sentence.
1:14:34We do not seek power as an end in itself.
1:14:37We only seek power adequate to our force.
1:14:40And rather than say, rather we have to make peace than we have to build peace,
1:14:49So, any security questions?
1:14:51Just a little bit, a little bit more about the problem with the affiliation of that.
1:15:01So, anyway, we don't want to spend too much time on it.
1:15:05We've got to get it right at the present time.
1:15:10But if we think about it, it will be quite easy.
1:15:12And mainly because it's about 70 days.
1:15:14Very few people will pick up on it and say it's a forgiving day.
1:15:20Talk about judges, prison reform, and all that sort of thing.
1:15:25It'll be picked up in red.
1:15:26This will be picked up more than that, in my opinion.
1:15:29Because it's about 70 people who are ready to make this their time.
1:15:33He didn't say almost anything about the war in the church.
1:15:36Rogers, you know, goes on and pops off about everything else in the media.
1:15:40He says one little line in the PSW about Vietnam, so that's a headline.
1:15:46You might want to go for live TV in the afternoon.
1:15:51You might want to go for live TV in the afternoon.
1:15:56On this?
1:15:59Sure.
1:15:59Why don't you do this so you've got to think about it, put it all together, and look at it as a whole.
1:16:05It might be a nice audience.
1:16:09It might be a beautiful setting.
1:16:14That's right, he was speeding up for the armed services about time, so what he did?
1:16:21He just kept knocking on the door all the time.
1:16:26What did he try to do?
1:16:35Are you keeping busy?
1:16:37Yes, we're pretty busy.
1:16:38We are.
1:16:38The whole room.
1:16:39You still looking for more help, are you?
1:16:43Still at it, yes.
1:16:44I'm trying to get, trying to, probably the vicious cycle is up, getting my head above water enough to find the help so that I'll get my head above water out.
1:16:50But they're all doing a fine job.
1:16:52We just keep, uh... And we do have things in train of trying to get the foreign policy over from state too.
1:17:01Good.
1:17:03That's very important.
1:17:04I don't know the names of them, but I don't mean to get all over their business of letters and foreign and state and so forth.
1:17:09It's ridiculous that your office writes those.
1:17:12I mean, when I say that you people take the time to write those, I mean to get them in style, but there's nobody in Henry's office who can write illiterate.
1:17:24I mean, frankly, a, what shall we say, an elegant letter, then it has to be, I mean, there has to be, the letters to Kensington State have to be in high style.
1:17:32So there are guys at State who can do it, but you've got to find one who's good at it, see, all over here.
1:17:43You won't like it, but it's alright.
1:17:46It's important to write a good letter.
1:17:49Nobody here believes that.
1:17:52They always send the damned things over here.
1:17:55Say, oh, the mail's horrible.
1:17:56Sorry for it.
1:17:58You tell all these young guys that.
1:18:02You tell them to write a letter and say, oh, God, this is the right letter.
1:18:10Don't you agree?
1:18:12Sometimes, yes.
1:18:13And sometimes it can be exciting.
1:18:15We do run into problems sometimes.
1:18:16One of them is that when we separate the person who caused it, the quality letter separated from the substantive input.
1:18:23Caused it from the substantive input, so the person trying to make it an elegant letter doesn't really, isn't really, isn't really that different from what was meant to be said.
1:18:31I understand that.
1:18:34You know, it's absolutely fascinating.
1:18:36You just gotta drive it home every hour, on the hour, and it never gets through.
1:19:01They think because you gave some of that stuff to Sulzberger, because he printed it in his paper this morning, that now it's been said, so now we've got to go on with something.
1:19:12I think Cook was actually sitting there disappointed that you had scooped his stuff, because he had written the same stuff you told him to write, which you had also given apparently similar stuff.
1:19:22He had that 10 times, actually.
1:19:24And God, man, these people, he thought I was taking leave of my senses when I said nobody reads the New York Times.
1:19:33But the point is, who the hell does?
1:19:37Hardly anybody in New York reads the New York Times, and nobody anywhere else reads it.
1:19:45But boy, you can't get that through.
1:19:47They say, you know, by God, Sulzberger read it in the New York Times, all this.
1:19:51Who said that?
1:19:52Well, they're all this way around here, yeah.
1:19:56In fact, our whole group... Of course, your press will do the same thing.
1:19:59They'll react the same way.
1:20:00If you go up there... Well, don't you go up there and say the same thing up there?
1:20:05They'll say, oh, that's what he said himself.
1:20:07Sure.
1:20:07So you do it again.
1:20:11It's hard, though.
1:20:12It really is.
1:20:12It's just a thing that people can't get into their minds.
1:20:21When they read it, they figure everybody's read it.
1:20:23I think Ziegler's beginning to understand it.
1:20:26But you don't, it isn't just that.
1:20:29No, he doesn't really.
1:20:30Ziegler's always looking for what's new, hot news, inclined to.
1:20:34But how about Mr. Manning?
1:20:35He's working well as the TV guys did.
1:20:38No, I mean, well, when I say Mr. Ziegler, anybody who's working with hot news always asks what's new.
1:20:45And they miss the nice stories.
1:20:47They miss the things that really...
1:20:50may have a little puncture.
1:20:54Of course, these will get carried on the wires.
1:20:56Now, some of them will be picked up, some of them now should.
1:21:00They won't get any damage in this case.
1:21:08The sloping, I'm trying to understand, because they're all subservient.
1:21:17Well, so Henry and Rodgers are now speaking to each other and not speaking to each other.
1:21:20I mean, there ain't any damn difference in that, is there?
1:21:23I don't know what you mean.
1:21:27Well, I got a line in this one.
1:21:28He wrote the act on Fletcher.
1:21:33He says that Fletcher denies all of that.
1:21:37That's not all.
1:21:39Well, Fletcher, I sure must have made it up.
1:21:41I have never expressed, I have never met the son of a bitch, Fletcher, except to shake his hand in the mass of dinner.
1:21:46And the second thing, I have never spoken about ABM to any scientist, ever.
1:21:52Ever.
1:21:53That's, as he said, if I hadn't thought about it.
1:21:56Now that is a goddamn lie.
1:21:57You've got to get on it.
1:21:58Sigler's got to, Sigler's got to deny that.
1:22:01Now that's one time he's got to step up and won't believe it.
1:22:05I assume so.
1:22:05They talked about that this morning.
1:22:11The, uh, the incredible thing there is understanding what was in Fletcher.
1:22:16Obviously he did say something.
1:22:18And he was at a luncheon with some other people.
1:22:22And Shorter was at the luncheon also and he didn't know Shorter was at his bench.
1:22:27He's passed to Shorter who does that though.
1:22:34He used to do that to Court Finch all the time.
1:22:38Did he?
1:22:39Yeah.
1:22:40Oh wow.
1:22:41Because he covered ATW at the time.
1:22:45You know, by working around to finally get Bob to say something that he didn't mean at all, then he'd run out and use it.
1:22:52There's nothing I can say about interesting Bob, though.
1:23:03I wonder if you haven't thought about it, that because it was raised by the leaders meeting, and to show you how just a tiny little incident like that, I think that was treated in Des Moines.
1:23:16It was a huge story.
1:23:20All those leaders thought that we had a hell of a bad reception in Des Moines.
1:23:24I see why.
1:23:25It was not only carried in the Washington Post, but it reflected also in both the news magazines, you know.
1:23:31But what happened here, though, is, and also throughout the story around the White House, they were probably concerned about it.
1:23:42And I just can't believe in any White House statement.
1:23:45I wasn't worried.
1:23:45I saw that in the back.
1:23:47It was the last minute.
1:23:49I don't know what to do about it.
1:23:51But the White House said it was the one that ran it.
1:23:59You know, I hit him every time.
1:24:00You've gotta be.
1:24:02These guys don't act.
1:24:04Don't act.
1:24:04That's the point.
1:24:05They've just gotta not act.
1:24:06Not act.
1:24:08That's right.
1:24:10And, uh, certainly never say so.
1:24:13We'll get it.
1:24:15That can be, they can play that off.
1:24:17You'll have to surface or anything else.
1:24:19We go right in there, you know, we're not going into that airport.
1:24:24No, we're going into, you land at Williamsburg, but you have to drive, you know, from the helipad at the end, and then walk in over to the conference center, which is very short.
1:24:38Yeah, but it's all in the ground, right?
1:24:40Yeah.
1:24:40Wow.
1:24:43In the rest area.
1:24:47Oh, this is part of the drill.
1:24:51Is that what you're going to do?
1:24:52Probably get some of this very time, sir.
1:24:55I'm waiting for you.
1:24:56Is that done?
1:24:59Yeah, that'll do.
1:25:03We have had it.
1:25:05And they don't make it up more because it is the time of Laos and it's the time of the, they're all trying to talk about politics.
1:25:21But the point is, good God, we've had demonstrators.
1:25:24There's been a place where we haven't had them.
1:25:26Can you remember?
1:25:27I can't remember any.
1:25:34I have a son.
1:25:35Maybe he's out in Turkey.
1:25:38No, not in one place in Texas, but in the others.
1:25:42I got every place else.
1:25:43We had it in Albuquerque.
1:25:45We had it in Bogota.
1:25:46We had it in Nevada.
1:25:48We had it in, you know, every place in California.
1:25:51Good God Almighty, they wouldn't put it in order to do it.
1:25:55I mean, we've had demonstrators.
1:25:56It's a thing of our time.
1:25:56I mean, they're just demonstrators for everything that happens.
1:26:01And look, Chief Johnson had so many of them go out in the places we're going and couldn't talk.
1:26:05Yeah.
1:26:08I wonder if in this case, frankly, it was Ziegler at all, if we did do any, if Ziegler at all did any kind of job for a student.
1:26:22Well, like I said, I'm trying to give up.
1:26:26on that point, except I do think that Jack Miller, Hart, Hart was around last night showing all the members of the cabinet the coverage of the Des Moines Register.
1:26:35He said six pages of the next interception in Des Moines, and so forth.
1:26:38He never said that he was coming here.
1:26:39He said he was going to mail it to some people.
1:26:42What have we done on that point?
1:26:48And we tried, did Miller make a talk, did he try?
1:26:51Miller did, and nobody, just Miller did the thing, you know, the indignation thing of the unfair, you know, disrepresentation of the attitude of the people of Iowa.
1:27:06And I don't know, the magazines loved the chance to play the press.
1:27:12Some of them put it in perspective, some of them didn't.
1:27:16We made a mistake.
1:27:17We've got to face that.
1:27:18Not a lot of them have been probably not cranking up their own.
1:27:22We won't do that again.
1:27:26We won't have an opportunity.
1:27:28There isn't any crowd to crank up there except we've got to make sure that the people that are there have gotten it.
1:27:37What do we do?
1:27:37There's a source for that, for real, for that.
1:27:39No, we don't want to bother with that.
1:27:41Newport, we've got a problem there.
1:27:43No, no, it's Quonset military base.
1:27:45No problem at all.
1:27:46I'd like to add to that.
1:27:47I'm saying that enthusiastic reception.
1:27:52Because they were all servicemen.
1:27:53Dependent.
1:27:54Right.
1:27:54They're all servicemen.
1:27:55They're supposed to be happy because they're underserved.
1:28:03Let's look at this in another way, though.
1:28:05Maybe we're reacting too much to that.
1:28:09Maybe we're not.
1:28:10Isn't this, though, having to do with Connelly's point about the man?
1:28:14People like to think that the man is well-liked, I think.
1:28:21We know very well there's some, but not a hell of a lot.
1:28:34You know what I mean?
1:28:35You're talking about the difference between 60 and 50, right?
1:28:38So what's the health?
1:28:39That's what it is.
1:30:57But I thought Newsweek reached quite a bit when they said that I was peevish with the press.
1:31:02And they ought to get some net letters on that to me and just say, I saw it.
1:31:05Because if you know, if anything, if you know, we talked about it later, it wasn't him.
1:31:11I should have hit him harder.
1:31:13I wasn't peevish at all.
1:31:15Did Ron run into that?
1:31:17That's the first I've seen him now.
1:31:19Overdorfer set that line.
1:31:21He could tell it was coming somewhere because Overdorfer ran it.
1:31:27He gave me the point last week that...
1:31:32He had sort of that, that you were angry, and he gave anger or petulance with the press or something, and that you had talked directly over their heads to the MTV camera as if you were trying to get passed in directly to the people.
1:31:50And I said, just actually say what you were doing.
1:31:53Well, we don't worry about such things.
1:31:57But at least I keep on...
1:32:03It's fascinating to watch.
1:32:04Over the years we've watched the meat dog push his buttons.
1:32:08One of them comes up with the thing and you can see that.
1:32:12The news magazines this week are a week late on the migration thing.
1:32:16They're all following last week's television.
1:32:18They missed the turn.
1:32:20They're all a week late.
1:32:22Right.
1:32:24And so hopefully this week the police go the other way in making it look like they're out of town.
1:32:32This week.
1:32:32Actually, it could be bad again, but that's the way it is.
1:32:38Great.
1:32:39My only answer is I think they should do more and more on television.
1:32:43So I'm in on that, but you agree?
1:32:46You think our next one should be the film thing in the end, or how do you think we should drive it?
1:32:50Or should we just do it?
1:32:54Yeah, and drive it.
1:32:55Because you don't want to keep going on.
1:32:57And we've got the one-on-one coming up, you know, right after this.
1:33:00I'm sure we'll put you back on TV in 20 seconds.
1:33:03CBS is delighted with the chance of having one of theirs.
1:33:10I don't like to have you.
1:33:13Also, Barbara Wallace has a better thing set up than that.
1:33:19the day show deal.
1:33:21And we'll do it tomorrow afternoon.
1:33:25But she, and what we're going to do is let NBC also use that from Saturday noon on, because you'll have, the other stories will go on Saturday noon, so they can scoop themselves if they want to, which they will probably do by running something on their evening news, on saying in an interview, you know, for the today show, which will be
1:33:47seen on Monday or Tuesday.
1:33:49She wants to go to half an hour.
1:33:52And I will not do it unless she's going to use the phone.
1:33:54That's clearly understood.
1:33:56I will not go to let them come.
1:33:57That's understood.
1:33:58That's better.
1:33:59And we said, you know, we talked.
1:34:01Therefore, I'd rather go live.
1:34:02I think I'd rather use the phone live.
1:34:04And I'm pretty sure, Bob, I won't trust them on coming.
1:34:07I won't trust them.
1:34:08They won't come.
1:34:10It's understood.
1:34:10They'll shoot to full length.
1:34:12They will.
1:34:15If they do this, you know, they've had it.
1:34:18I will only do exactly what they're going to use.
1:34:22That's understood.
1:34:23It will be done as a live thing, no editing.
1:34:28I think she should do, we should ask her to say something.
1:34:31At the President's request, this is an unedited interview, tape recorded with the President.
1:34:41How's this going to work and are we going to do what we're supposed to or what we told them?
1:34:46I don't know if we've told them this.
1:34:48I don't see them tomorrow, but the next day, tomorrow.
1:34:54The idea would be to do Barbara Walters at about 445, and then do the ladies of the press right after.
1:35:04Well, that's the next question.
1:35:05The recommendation is the yellow oval one.
1:35:09Unless you don't want television up there.
1:35:10No problem.
1:35:12If you don't mind having it set up up there, that would, it gives us a nice, you know, it's a good place to do it.
1:35:17If not, uh, the red room or the, you know, one of the farmhouse downstairs.
1:35:22Okay.
1:35:23The Bain-Arts area.
1:35:24Oh, the yellow, I don't know, the yellow room, I don't think it's a very good room.
1:35:28Well, I'm sorry.
1:35:34She knows damn well now.
1:35:35I just want to be sure.
1:35:36Yes, sir.
1:35:37On this, she knows first.
1:35:38Leave that.
1:35:39Leave that first and that second part.
1:35:41It is not on substance.
1:35:43It's a substantive question.
1:35:44I doubt that you understood all of that.
1:35:45Do you see what I mean?
1:35:46Yeah, I'm not going to play that game with Henry and others, but not with me.
1:35:49What you going to ask about that?
1:35:51Yes, sir.
1:35:52Yes, sir.
1:35:52This is all personal.
1:35:58personal stuff on you.
1:35:59It might be a conversational kind of thing.
1:36:03You can read it very easily.
1:36:04It's not a quiz type thing.
1:36:05You shouldn't take it that way.
1:36:10You'll have to talk with it for a few minutes before you start taping so that you have
1:36:14guidance on what you want to say, because she's all excited about this.
1:36:19She's canceled her vacation in order to do a morning show.
1:36:22It's a very big thing for her.
1:36:26It's a morning show for the morning show.
1:36:35Same thing.
1:36:35You know, you'll get some different questions, because they won't see you for a longer time.
1:36:40and give them the same thing and go on and just, whatever they get, they'll run this as their written stuff and it'll run on the radio.
1:36:47Barbara Walters will run it as an extraordinary air run.
1:36:51Starting at noon on Saturday.
1:36:54What time do we do theirs?
1:36:57We do theirs at 1 a.m. when you finish with Barbara Walters at 5.30.
1:37:03Now she, we had proposed this to her as a 10-minute.
1:37:06I think I understood a brief thing, and she said that.
1:37:09She said she'd like to go to a house, and we said that, and it must be clearly understood that everything that's taken away from you is going to be ours now.
1:37:17No.
1:37:18Not at all.
1:37:18It's a substance.
1:37:21It's a substance.
1:37:24It's totally different, and this is life.
1:37:28And this is on a totally different subject.
1:37:31You're not in any way scooping it.
1:37:33Not at all.
1:37:36That said, I'm standing for 930, but I want this to be about women.
1:37:39Do you understand?
1:37:41It's clearly about sexism, sexism, sexism, men, women, daughters, grown women, and politics, you know.
1:37:51Purely personal, kind of.
1:37:53And that's understood.
1:37:55There's no question at all on that.
1:38:17I told you I did that long interview that they were going to use in this U.S. convention.
1:38:23No, Washington.
1:38:23Washington, yeah.
1:38:25I got a letter from Matt Storm written, and he says, I think I should inform you that having completed the first draft of my piece for the Washington Monthly, it apparently became evident to them that you were not going to turn out to be quite the bad guy they were interested in.
1:38:39Whether that makes me a poor reporter, I don't know.
1:38:41In any event, I'm confident in selling it elsewhere.
1:38:43I'll let you know if I do.
1:38:45They rejected the story.
1:38:47Because it was favorable.
1:38:51I'm going to use this letter.
1:38:53What is the negative?
1:38:57There's basically a negative.
1:39:00Not completely.
1:39:02Obviously, it's a favorable story on me and the president.
1:39:06It's not anything that was in the interest of them.
1:39:09They turned it down.
1:39:12I said, Ray, not a chance, not a chance.
1:39:16Don't you agree?
1:39:18Yeah.
1:39:19That's the thing.
1:39:20Ray just honestly believes stuff.
1:39:39He was an honest press guy, you know, himself.
1:39:41And he sat there when a guy that he didn't agree with came through for something good, he probably wrote a good article.
1:39:47Yeah.
1:39:48Yeah.
1:39:48Other people go at it the same way.
1:39:53There are probably four or five in the world who did that stuff.
1:39:58Well, there are quite a few, but...
1:40:00I mean, not that the editorials are better, they're actually about 10%, but the ratio is just, I mean, that's one of the reasons why, in this term, he's not really the best we can have, because he is so trusting of the press.
1:40:11Thanks as well.
1:40:15It's a game.
1:40:16You've just got to always figure out how do you get around, how do you get out of that, how do you leap out of the way.
1:40:28I guess your hope springs eternal.
1:40:30He's got to, you know, come around the sun.
1:40:31It's like when Keogh was...
1:40:34He is not soft.
1:40:35He's really close to the sun.
1:40:40I would say...
1:40:43What do you think?
1:40:44Sure.
1:40:44I think those medics hurt him.
1:40:48Well, they have some effect sometimes.
1:40:50It's obvious because some of the things you get, you get a reaction.
1:40:54Look, I found yesterday, I wanted to tell it to some, that I had a check with the captain, and I was flying him around, but I never heard from this man, David, and I just don't know what we heard.
1:41:07He was using it this weekend, for example.
1:41:13I'm not going to be there.
1:41:14It's an ideal time for somebody to go out and get those two tabs and rearrange everybody to use it.
1:41:18Well, I have not been calling them when you don't use it, although...
1:41:21They have requests.
1:41:24Well, they, they, well, screw the Volpe thing.
1:41:27I mean, that's just, Volpe came in and said, I've had my name, and he says, I've been in, but they've never let me use it again.
1:41:32And of course, he wants 24 people or something.
1:41:37He wants 24 people, and he wants to go on a weekend, and the weekends he picks are the, you know, 4th of July or something, when you're going to be there.
1:41:43Well, now, first, I'll just say this.
1:41:45One thing I do want to do, the editors have never been in.
1:41:49I want you to pick a time.
1:41:50The next time we know that we're going to be out of town, call the ambulance and say they can have the whole place, you know.
1:41:58Just let them have it.
1:41:59That is the right thing to do.
1:42:01Try to do it this weekend.
1:42:03No, they can't do it this weekend.
1:42:04He's good.
1:42:05He told me.
1:42:09if you would like to go and leave the grandchildren for the rest.
1:42:12And this weekend, I'm worried that Dan could have time to have somebody go up there.
1:42:15Not a member of the staff.
1:42:16I don't think any staff member that needs to come home today to go.
1:42:20I mean, they're all feeling pretty good.
1:42:23But let the out-of-cabin people that haven't been there, I mean, why don't you get stupid Opie up there now?
1:42:29I mean, I don't know.
1:42:31Okay, well, you make the calls.
1:42:32I made them the one time you mentioned it.
1:42:34I went to everyone, Dick Helms and even the major agencies, and they all, of course, appreciated it.
1:42:39Well, I understand.
1:42:40You've got a perfect time for this week, as it turns out.
1:42:42I'm going to be there every two weekends.
1:42:45and say, would you like to?
1:42:47I had two go.
1:42:48They did.
1:42:49I mean, you got two, and you could take a double-up and say, they've got these two cabins.
1:42:55Of course, what we had, and his idea was so crazy that he said, look, did I, he said, they're only going through 24, and I said, John, I think so.
1:43:03I said, yeah.
1:43:04He wants to take care of his whole goddamn staff up there or something.
1:43:08Well, see, a number of them have done that.
1:43:10And that place gets used like it's never been used in history.
1:43:15And we can't be like we're not, you know, not what I believe.
1:43:19I can't go beyond that.
1:43:21What I mean is I don't want a personal championship.
1:43:24Well, there's a limit because of the staff.
1:43:26Well, the staff is a good thing.
1:43:28They can pick their team up and have a conversation.
1:43:31They'll set an archive up there and get both of you out of the way.
1:43:36Who else is not?
1:43:37When you check this, do you have a file that's true to use?
1:43:42The aides do have a file.
1:43:43Why don't you get a file that's true to use as a couple?
1:43:45Yes, sir.
1:43:47See, he has been there, but he's never been there.
1:43:49He's been there with the people, but he has never been there by himself.
1:43:52And I just as a family, it just might be that, say, for example, Mitchell, I'd like to go with Mrs. Mitchell by himself one time.
1:44:00I'll keep that just the way I'm keeping invitations.
1:44:03I've been keeping social invitations.
1:44:05Who's doing this?
1:44:09Hughes?
1:44:09Fine, fine, that's good.
1:44:12I've got to let him continue.
1:44:14Tell him to run the list.
1:44:15Well, but I can keep the record.
1:44:17I said we'd call it on the cabin.
1:44:19I'd like to get it.
1:44:20I don't want the crybabies.
1:44:23Just remember Rumsfeld's theory on opium.
1:44:28If you had opium every weekend at Camp David, he'd bitch because you didn't let him stay a little Monday.
1:44:33If he hasn't until Monday, he'd say, well, why didn't you climb down in your helicopter so you could get to work on time?
1:44:39Is that right?
1:44:40There's just no way.
1:44:40There's just sponge there that just soaks up everything you put on the plate.
1:44:45On anything.
1:44:46On invitations, bringing people along, strapping.
1:44:48I know he complains about, you know, not being invited to anything he's not invited to.
1:44:53He is unbelievable.
1:44:54And you should not, you just got to have a deaf ear on that.
1:44:58Don't let him serve you.
1:45:01All right.
1:45:01Don't worry about it.
1:45:02All right.
1:45:02Don't bother him.
1:45:02Don't bother him.
1:45:05Well, no, if he hasn't been there once, get him up there once, so the guy can't say he's never been there.
1:45:10They say that he can go this weekend.
1:45:12If he wants, he says, well, I'm sorry, I can't go this weekend.
1:45:15She says, all right, that's all right.
1:45:16I'm sorry, but the president was using another weekend.
1:45:19See, the thing here, if you push it too much, is that then they get in the way of your use of it.
1:45:24I have a whole purpose again, David.
1:45:25As soon as you ever get to the vote, like some days, for example, I might decide not to go to Florida, which I have done.
1:45:31That's nice.
1:45:32And then somebody's up there and I'm choked up.
1:45:34That's exactly why I can't have that.
1:45:37And here the show moves.
1:45:38And that's the reason they hold it up until it's locked.
1:45:44But this weekend is free up there.
1:45:46You are going to see it.
1:45:47He said, this weekend's a perfect week.
1:45:49This is what it really is for that.
1:45:51This weekend, I really offer to get a couple of them up there.
1:45:55Now, of course, they're all going to the gridiron.
1:45:58He said, well, maybe he's going to the gridiron.
1:46:01But then they just go out and spend one night.
1:46:03I go to spend one night.
1:46:04They go out Friday and spend the night and come back the Saturday night.
1:46:07A little bit of the president life side of it.
1:46:09We recommend it.
1:46:11John Connery, really enjoyed his week.
1:46:13I was just kidding.
1:46:14He really did.
1:46:15A lot of rest.
1:46:17Well, there aren't a hell of a lot.
1:46:19There isn't much.
1:46:20They're during the week, and we tell them to use it during the week.
1:46:27And they do.
1:46:37That's when they have these departmental conference.
1:46:39Why don't you call back and say that the president called it, and we haven't, but the really best time would be to go out and hear about it.
1:46:49Isn't there a time when you ought to be able to spend time in April?
1:46:53So I know in spring, I mean in April, when is our next board meeting going to happen?
1:46:59First, second, third, fourth, fifth, and so on.
1:47:01So it's really fun.
1:47:05You've been known to change your mind.
1:47:08Yeah.
1:47:08That'd be a pretty good time.
1:47:14I'd like to offer him that.
1:47:23All right, sir.
1:47:29It was a chap, that son of a bitch, every chance I gave him.
1:47:31Obviously, he was at dinner last night, so he probably had a chance.
1:47:33I bet the name of the list would be in there.
1:47:44Do you know that?
1:47:45Black sensitivity or any kind of sensitivity.
1:47:47Oh, yeah, he debased himself into doing something like that.
1:47:50Yeah, well, the governor's dinner, he was terrible at that.
1:47:52This guy called six times, and he called me.
1:47:58Cheap two-bit Massachusetts politician.
1:48:01That's what it is.
1:48:02That's how he got to be governor.
1:48:03Sure, he wasn't qualified, but he got to be governor because he kept pushing.
1:48:11Well, we ought to get him up there and get him out.
1:48:26Henry, Kessler wants to stay for 10 hours, according to Steve.
1:48:30All right.
1:48:36Give him the sign and hold it for me.
1:48:44It's a little bit better.
1:48:45Oh, call him on it.
1:48:46Spell.
1:48:46Devotee.
1:48:47I can't even say it this bad.
1:48:49I should have called him.
1:48:50I couldn't pronounce it at all.
1:48:51I didn't call him.
1:48:51I didn't call him.
1:48:54Now, as I was starting all day, I wanted to read that, and he says, you know, he says, if I could, if I could only have that, if I could have our home, if I could have the sand, if I could have the oysters with the sand, if I could have that, if I could have that, it could be helpful.
1:49:06All right.
1:49:09He just has no, he's no class.
1:49:12You know, I was just saying to Alex, when you add it all up, that Joe is a Massachusetts politician, that's obviously the only way you've got to be governor, is by pushing because he sure doesn't have the qualification.
1:49:22That's how he succeeded in business, too, with the stuff that he and those guys planned.
1:49:32And this ability, his worthlessness, drives him to get you somewhere.
1:49:36He's got a tremendous drive.
1:49:44Well, the dinner went very well.
1:49:46It was a great experience.
1:49:49John said that's a very good thing to do.
1:49:53Very low-key.
1:50:10But you would enjoy that, wouldn't you?
1:50:12I mean, I just think, you know, I really almost think of Bokey, the thing to do is to get him in for a half hour and then throw his ass out.
1:50:24But sometimes, put it down, I don't know what to do.
1:50:28But not now.
1:50:30I mean, that's good, but, you know, it's unbelievable.
1:50:35You know, such a poor manners.
1:50:41That's such a gross manners for him to raise such a question about, I'd like to see you, but nobody else would do that, you know.
1:50:56I think you're right, I think I hate you.
1:50:59Of course, on the other hand, you sent a piece for us getting her something to do with us.
1:51:05It's important what you're doing.
1:51:06But you see, the difficulty is, and I know it well,
1:52:12I wonder if we should do much of it.
1:52:14I think it's better just to get him in and talk to him.
1:52:18Michael Falker is better?
1:52:19I think this thing you're doing, this round with having got them all in for a cozy dinner.
1:52:24And Michael Falker.
1:52:25It is worthwhile talking to him.
1:52:26I had a chance to talk to John.
1:52:27I didn't see John now.
1:52:28He's got some strong views on the textiles thing.
1:52:33Very different from George Holtz's.
1:52:35I can't be pushed too strong in that direction.
1:52:39And so I got everyone.
1:52:40And I wouldn't be killed otherwise.
1:55:31But we can't allow it to obsess us.
1:57:20I think actually we're conducting, I think we're conducting ourselves not that well.
1:57:28I think, you know what I mean?
1:57:29Since the election, we've not had the press conference, the conversation, so they didn't want to do it again.
1:57:34Well, on this case, it has not done as much as what you're after.
1:57:37There has to be a continuing effect.
1:57:38There has to be a building.
1:57:40Sure.
1:57:40I think that, though, the idea of erosion and people don't like it,
1:57:46That is due to the two things.
1:57:48The one thing I was concerned of, as I read the news center, was the almost unanimous opinion of the news, of the financial editors, and the confidence factor.
1:58:01Now, some way or other, I don't know if I crack it.
1:58:04I pardon Mr. Burns.
1:58:06Mr. Burns is the bastard here.
1:58:08Mr. Burns is getting that word out too much.
1:58:12And there's got to be some kind of confidence that then the stock market keeps banging up.
1:58:17And I saw it sunk up a little again yesterday.
1:58:19I had another huge day.
1:58:20I saw it.
1:58:22It went through 900 yesterday during the day.
1:58:25But if it didn't, if it ended over 900, I want to call my advisor.
1:58:28If it didn't close over 900, it might today.
1:58:32It'll probably go off today.
1:58:34Today's Thursday.
1:58:34No, Tuesday.
1:58:35Wednesday.
1:58:37Wednesday.
1:58:37Wednesday.
1:58:41What is your feeling as to whether, in my mind, my feeling is that as we look at this situation, that it's our coming out after the conversation, basically 60, this is what we were.
1:58:56I think Gallup's 76 as well.
1:58:59I think actually we were probably, I think our figure was pretty close, don't you think so?
1:59:06Because we had 18-year-olds in it, and also we put it in there.
1:59:09All right.
1:59:10Coming out at basically 60 and dropped down.
1:59:16I guess it's, I think it's basically like 50, basically 50, 48, 49, 50, 51, and then it's all part of that.
1:59:25But what we have in May, I think it's a, I think that the drop the year before was due primarily to the economy.
1:59:34There's no question about that.
1:59:36The economy was just sliding like hell, if you recall.
1:59:40And the war wasn't all that bad.
1:59:43The Laotian thing began to creak up, but it didn't get bad until March.
1:59:47Huh?
1:59:47What?
1:59:48Last year.
1:59:50No, last year, this time.
1:59:53We were going down at this time, but then we started back up.
1:59:55Not until after Cambodia.
1:59:56Not until after Cambodia.
1:59:57Not until after Cambodia, sir.
1:59:58Not until then, sir.
2:00:00Remember, we went down in the 35, around that bank.
2:00:04Now, what did we start with?
2:00:07A lower threshold.
2:00:10The question is how much that we really wasted in terms of the opportunity.
2:00:14The question I raise on all of this is whether or not a settle sets in on a precedent, whether or not people just, in other words, you just cross your threshold and people either have confidence or they don't.
2:00:30You know, like the Kennedy people felt that after he'd been in his third year that he might not make it the next time, even though he was still
2:00:39I think that the drop the year before was due primarily to the economy.
2:00:45There's no question about that.
2:00:47The economy was just sliding like hell, if you recall.
2:00:54And the war wasn't all that bad.
2:00:56The Laotian thing began to creak up, but it didn't get bad until March.
2:01:03What?
2:01:03Last year.
2:01:05No, last year, this time.
2:01:06We were going down at this time, but then we started back up.
2:01:08Not until, not until we hit Cambodian.
2:01:10After Cambodian, not until we hit Cambodian, sir.
2:01:13Not until then, sir.
2:01:14Remember, we went down to 55, around that bank.
2:01:17Now, what if we start with a lower threshold?
2:01:21The question is, how much have we really wasted in terms of the opportunity?
2:01:28The question I raise on callback is whether or not
2:01:33A settle sets in on a precedent, whether or not people just, in other words, you just cross your threshold and they, people either have confidence or they don't.
2:01:42You know, like the Kennedy people felt that after he'd been in his third year that he might not make it the next time.
2:01:50And even though he was still 55, 57 in the polls back in the summer of 19, just before he went to Dallas.
2:02:00Senator Kincaid gets caught.
2:02:03Well, boy, this is pretty good.
2:02:05It was not bad, unless it's high as it had been.
2:02:09But nevertheless, over him it was an error because he had been so many times.
2:02:13Right.
2:02:13And therefore, it has some effect on people.
2:02:16The question is, really, did he have this question?
2:02:25And it really relates to my use of time.
2:02:30whether it was really possible.
2:02:33I know that they're supposed to be saying, well, we've got to try it anyway, with all this Mickey Mouse stuff, you know, the man and all that sort of thing.
2:02:41But I just wondered if that's what you're talking about, that it was a fatalistic thing.
2:02:46God damn it, it's not working.
2:02:49It's not working.
2:02:51It's not working.
2:02:54That's what it should come down to.
2:02:55I guess one.
2:02:55That's my point.
2:02:56You should look at it that way.
2:02:58I don't think we should.
2:02:58Do you really think, though, looking at it from your standpoint, you people, if you really should try to...
2:03:04I was pressing our guys too hard.
2:03:05You know, we got Buchanan and all these recruiter guys.
2:03:09Hell, I don't know what the hell else we're here for.
2:03:11I don't know.
2:03:12Maybe we don't need somebody.
2:03:16How many do you want here?
2:03:17No, I think maybe we don't need so many, but maybe, you know, why not, it's like a pipe in the water, why not do everything that might do some good?
2:03:24Do you have a vision for this?
2:03:28Sure.
2:03:29I've given the will.
2:03:31I think, and I think we...
2:03:34I think it's terribly important that you be fatalistic about it and not worry about it at all.
2:03:39And I just want to recall a lot of the staff, whether or not you don't get it.
2:03:44I mean, the staff, I think Tommy's point is absolutely right.
2:03:50What you need is a staff recognition of what they're here to do.
2:03:55And you've got a lot of dangerous people.
2:03:57They're very intelligent, they're very dedicated, and they work hard.
2:04:02The problem is, what are they devoting that ability and capability to?
2:04:09Now, the problem is that what they're devoting it to is, and it's right that they devote some of it to, is in developing programs, is in solving problems, is in putting on fires, is in keeping the government running smoothly and trying to make it run more smoothly.
2:04:29They were very happy up to now, and it's not their fault.
2:04:34It's the kind of people in the businesses that they ran.
2:04:37They had advertising departments, and they never thought about advertising their products.
2:04:42They were lawyers.
2:04:43They weren't allowed advertising.
2:04:47So they didn't pay any attention to something.
2:04:49None of them, with a couple exceptions, are politicians.
2:04:53The ones you've had, that are politicians, Moynihan and McConnell, have seen just the other side of it completely.
2:05:02And I think we've got to see the other side of it.
2:05:05I'm not going to make a ruckus about their politics.
2:05:08Not in the same sense as my mom.
2:05:12First of all, because they're Republicans.
2:05:13Republicans and politicians are different camps.
2:05:16Second, because they're really not both their own man.
2:05:20And, of course, they're not national.
2:05:23You know, that's your economy.
2:05:25You might have a whole thing nationally.
2:05:27It's been difficult for Rumsfeld to manage to get out of the way over there, I think.
2:05:36Mitch has more of a problem in that he's kind of this overriding obsession of his own political career.
2:05:43Rumsfeld has an overriding confusion on his own political career.
2:05:46Bob knows what he wants in general, but he doesn't.
2:05:57I'm sure Ronnie read that.
2:05:58Right, he sent it to me.
2:06:03an article from Fortune.
2:06:05Did you read that one?
2:06:06Politics?
2:06:09It's an interesting piece, Fortune, and it goes through the cycles and where the day of the future is.
2:06:19And they did all the cycle theories in about six different cycles, and all of them put them that we are at the stage in three cycles, I guess.
2:06:27We're at the same stage as the Wilson stage of that cycle, which had been kicked off first.
2:06:37Cycle first was started at Union, and the cycle was kicked off by Lincoln, and then third by FDR.
2:06:44But Wilson was at the end of the Lincoln cycle, I guess it was not Lincoln.
2:06:51And we're at the end of some cycle.
2:06:54Well, he says, you are like Wilson.
2:06:57You're at the interface of a cycle.
2:06:59The cycle we're in now is the social welfare cycle that Roosevelt kicked off.
2:07:05And he said, we're at the end of that cycle.
2:07:07The question is, and we'll know this for 20 years, whether this is the end of that cycle or the beginning of a new cycle.
2:07:15And he said, you are, as Wilson was,
2:07:20But Jan is slightly looking both ways.
2:07:22You're partly finishing that cycle and you're partly starting the new cycle.
2:07:27And what happens in the next five or six years is going to be .
2:07:33But the thing he concludes, I think it's his conclusion, he then says, who's going to bring about the new cycle?
2:07:38Is it the Democratic Party?
2:07:39Is it structured now?
2:07:40His answer is no, for a lot of reasons.
2:07:41Is it the Republican Party?
2:07:42Is it structured now?
2:07:43No, for a lot of reasons.
2:07:44It's a coalition of Republicans and Southern Democrats, quite possibly, except that's a conservative coalition, and conservatives have never started a food cycle by inherently conservatives.
2:07:55No, it's going to end rightly.
2:08:05And then, but what he concludes is that maybe the...
2:08:09the catalytic force that does it is the liberal Republican.
2:08:14And listen, that's the mentality.
2:08:16It doesn't go that far, not as far as it is now, but something short of that.
2:08:20It could rip on like the Republican.
2:08:23And so somewhere sitting in one of the back roads of Congress or in one of the sub-secretary offices in the government is probably the man that will be the next one.
2:08:34I'm sure a guy like him still reads that and says, by goodness, you're out of your mind.
2:08:39I don't think it's wrong to stop.
2:08:42But I'm sure nobody's peers ever did it to me.
2:08:46To God, either.
2:08:48No, that's right.
2:08:50Nobody can tell who's going to be trusted to him at a certain time.
2:09:27smoking as a contract.
2:09:30And there's serious problems on the bottom.
2:09:34Yeah, so is bulking.
2:09:36Oh, bulking, sir.
2:09:37Bulking cannot be overcome.
2:09:39Agnes couldn't.
2:09:40Agnes at least got a stash of bulking.
2:09:42It just doesn't happen.
2:09:43You know that.
2:09:45Oh, he's got a straw.
2:09:48That's the last thing you want in a vice president.
2:09:54That was one way to cut that back.
2:09:56Really, you know, that's just a second.
2:10:00Oh, he's pushing that.
2:10:04I mean, it's a long time.
2:10:04I don't like it.
2:10:07We don't, as I said, let's not sit around and psychoanalyze everything.
2:10:12I think that we've done this job, we've been through all this, but I just wonder if, I don't want you to feel it because we've had this meeting with your staff.
2:10:21Maybe that exercise actually has worked well.
2:10:27I'm not sure.
2:10:29I'm not sure.
2:10:29It makes a difference.
2:10:30It makes a difference for the reason that we live in a PR world.
2:10:34And the PR, well this is what they said, the way they had left the morning thing is a pretty typical example.
2:10:41If they could take that and build that into an enormous, now what the hell, a non-lady?
2:10:48Yeah, you can't take a building, but I do think they're a little bit harder to trust people and others ought to be able to counter that just a little better, I don't know, maybe, maybe not.
2:11:01You can't push it.
2:11:05They're going to write it down.
2:11:07Well, the immediate report on it didn't come out well.
2:11:12What was it that set off the disagreement?
2:11:18Yeah, and they got all excited because it did, there was a valid thing there.
2:11:23As soon as they get this part, any little wedge didn't get a hook on it.
2:11:26They hardly had a hook.
2:11:27A combination of hardhats, barbers, and suits.
2:11:30Right.
2:11:31to give them a new lease on life and trying to figure out a way to get at us.
2:11:38And there was enough validity to it that they could build it way out of proportion.
2:11:46I think we gotta take it seriously.
2:11:48I think it's one we gotta, I agree, we gotta not just laugh off because that kind of thing can build up.
2:11:58So you mean the idea that the idea can be built up that we're unpopular and far-fetched?
2:12:06Yeah.
2:12:06You know, all these, rather than the old combination of the poor and the black and the young, but now you've got the middle income and the white and the...
2:12:22And of course, none of these combinations are ever quite the way they say.
2:12:25It's also a question of 5% to 5% to 10% annual option, except the gold will never be in that space.
2:12:36So we've got to figure out who our 5% is.
2:12:39Yes, we also have to remember the gradations we've been talking about.
2:12:43And we've got to be sure to hang on to our basics.
2:12:45That's what I do.
2:12:49farm folk, suburbs, property taxpayers, the rational black in the South.
2:13:02I'm curious, though, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh,
2:13:16That's what really happens, you know.
2:13:19Yeah, they talk, you know, over there they'll say, you know, he was pretty deepish, wasn't he?
2:13:24Well, we actually come out of a John Hunt's walk of time, too.
2:13:31He's the kind that does that sort of little thing.
2:13:34We don't worry about it.
2:13:36We just pretend to whack right away.
2:13:42So with Bob, it's amazing which memory you, I'll tell you, you fought on that battle.
2:13:47But that's why we've got to keep fighting.
2:13:49That's why I just don't think there's any merit to be fatalistic.
2:13:52To have somebody prepare what they think a good point should be made about the submission and the girls and so forth.
2:14:00Well, we did that.
2:14:03Now, who's got the food?
2:14:04Who can you put on that?
2:14:05Take more.
2:14:07You know, just give me some probably points on that so that I can...
2:14:11I want to keep thoughts that I can put on the page, let it go back and read, but Jessamyn's article, for example, thinks it could be underscored.
2:14:19See my point?
2:14:21I say that it becomes new.
2:14:26That would be very helpful to have.
2:14:28I should like to have that incidentally.
2:14:33So that I can have it on the way back to Williamsburg.
2:14:37I'm not going to have it on the way back to Williamsburg.
2:14:41But I can do that and get some of it tonight.
2:14:42But it would be better if I had it, let's see, it's not, well, they can do it exactly by 12.
2:14:46See, so at 6 o'clock, if you think they'll have it by that time, they can get some, they can get some other hours in afterwards.
2:14:55So that they have money and time.
2:14:56Yes, that's right.
2:14:57I don't want them to spend the afternoon on it anyway.
2:15:01Just say, let's say that I would like it by 7.30.
2:15:04I won't expect anything because I'm tied up in the southern outer streets.
2:15:07It's important to 7.30.
2:15:09I've got to work with the parish in that.
2:15:16Yeah?
2:15:17So how can I call them to say that you were interviewed?
2:15:22in the times of sinless unpretentious profound.
2:15:27Six other exalted adjectives.
2:15:31He read it.
2:15:32Oh, he... Nobody else reads it.
2:15:34Wait a minute, Bob.
2:15:35We've got to tell Henry something.
2:15:37Henry now knows.
2:15:38We've got Henry to tell some of these other clowns.
2:15:40Some of them are, as you were calling me, with Christ.
2:15:43Oh, incidentally, too, I want you to read the Newport Street chapter in the secret.
2:15:50When it gets over, it'll be over at 3 o'clock.
2:15:54Would you get a speech for Henry?
2:15:56I want to get a speech.
2:15:57It's a very, I think it's a very warm speech about young people who have served in their countries and the rest of the world.
2:16:04I want you to read it in style.
2:16:06I mean, do you think there's something in it that doesn't fit on a, it's practically on the road.
2:16:11Go ahead and tell them what you have on this list.
2:16:13I'll use you because we've got a shirt.
2:16:15I get the rank price of Neil Cook, the speechwriter.
2:16:18We'll talk about the Newport speech.
2:16:19We'll talk about the Newport speech.
2:16:22I'll tell you how that speech came about.
2:16:26I called Cook.
2:16:27It's not a big deal.
2:16:28I said, look, I've got to speak for 15 minutes and do this graduation.
2:16:33I said, it's not a big deal.
2:16:38And I said,
2:16:42So I talked to him about that.
2:16:43That's it.
2:16:44He's not screaming.
2:16:47So I talked to him.
2:16:50I said, these are some of the thoughts that you could put into it.
2:16:53So he gave me a, you know, two thousand word speech.
2:16:59And it was good, very good.
2:17:01And then he came in today to the Hall of the Cross, and so forth and so on.
2:17:07And then he came in there and quite recently, he said, well, actually, we're going to have to redo the speech because you covered all the same material that you covered with me on Sunday.
2:17:15You covered it in your Sulzberger interview.
2:17:17So it's all covered in the New York Times.
2:17:19So we can't use it for the speech.
2:17:21As if anybody who hears the speech is going to read the New York Times.
2:17:25Exactly.
2:17:25Anybody.
2:17:26And I said, I said, you know, that doesn't make any difference.
2:17:31Nobody reads the New York Times.
2:17:33Both of those guys are my fellows in the time.
2:17:36Anybody who reads the New York Times will necessarily remember.
2:17:40The audience, the audience of Newport will not read it.
2:17:44No problem.
2:17:44But beyond that, tomorrow morning, the television audience will be there, the newspaper audience will be there, the press here will be there.
2:17:54You see, that's the other thing where I've been taken by the press that they've seen, so they'll come.
2:18:00That's the problem.
2:18:00They'll get up there and it's right there.
2:18:02That'll cut everything out of the box because I'm going to withdraw his nomination today unless it's denied.
2:18:10Okay, I did not get the question so I did not knock it out of the box.
2:18:14Yes, sir
2:18:17With CBS?
2:18:18Isn't that who it is?
2:18:19Yes.
2:18:20All right.
2:18:21Now, first of all, I have never met the son of a bitch.
2:18:25I shook his hand once.
2:18:27Once in my life.
2:18:28I've talked to Fletcher this morning.
2:18:30I know.
2:18:30But I just want to be clear with you that he has never talked to anybody.
2:18:34I have never talked to a scientist about ADM.
2:18:37I have never indicated, never, that I have any doubts about ADM.
2:18:41Right.
2:18:42I have always said everything to the contrary.
2:18:45And I'm not going to have the new director of NASA at that good job not meeting his flat.
2:18:50Now, what did he tell you this morning?
2:18:52He said that he had not discussed ABM.
2:18:55He said that he has no reason.
2:18:57He doesn't bat me.
2:18:58He's not only not discussed it, he hasn't talked to me.
2:19:00Not only in terms of discussing it with you, but he said, and I have a quote from him, which is that there's no reason at all why he does not support the current ABM program, he says.
2:19:11He doesn't disagree with it at all.
2:19:14And that he did not convey that to anyone.
2:19:18Why doesn't he support it then?
2:19:20Well, he said it.
2:19:21I mean, can't he just say that?
2:19:23Yeah, he just wanted to say that in his testimony today when he said it.
2:19:27Did he?
2:19:27Yes.
2:19:28But he does not disagree with the ABN.
2:19:30That isn't what Andrew said.
2:19:31Andrew said, why doesn't he support it?
2:19:33Yeah.
2:19:33That's different than not disagreeing.
2:19:35Some of it is better to get on his ass and say, I support the ABN program.
2:19:39He doesn't say that.
2:19:40Or I would throw the nomination to Sacramento, and I mean it.
2:19:43We're going to get tougher on this place.
2:19:46The other thing is that I'm damn sure you know him.
2:19:49Yes, sir.
2:19:50All right.
2:19:51That's to be locked down.
2:19:52That is totally false.
2:19:53How can you do it?
2:19:54Well, I have a client to call CPS.
2:19:56Dixon, I have a client to call.
2:20:00Tell him first.
2:20:00This is totally not how you do it.
2:20:03Totally inaccurate.
2:20:04It's totally false.
2:20:06And that there is absolutely not a grain of truth.
2:20:09One, that I have never discussed it with Fletcher at all.
2:20:14Second, don't defend Fletcher's position.
2:20:18Fletcher says that Fletcher is not a citizen.
2:20:21The main thing is whether or not he's a citizen.
2:20:27This is not his view.
2:20:28He's never expressed his view to Fletcher or anybody else.
2:20:32But they're on a bad wicket, and the President personally, if it is not taken out on tonight's news, I am personally going to take it on Williamson tomorrow.
2:20:41I've got to say, McGrath, you've got to begin to handle these guys on your own.
2:20:47Yes, sir.
2:20:48You don't realize the importance of this.
2:20:50This is a big fight, McGrath.
2:20:52ABM, you cannot have the president's position that I have black economy.
2:20:57It affects our dealings with the Russians.
2:20:59It affects our dealings with the Congress.
2:21:01Don't you realize the importance of this, sir?
2:21:03We've just had new information on these stamps, these SA-5s, of which the Russians have 5,000.
2:21:08Now it turns out they do have an ABM capability.
2:21:13I don't understand why I called back and he didn't realize the importance of this.
2:21:19Don't you realize the importance of that goddamn statement?
2:21:25Yes, sir.
2:21:25That's why.
2:21:26He quotes the president.
2:21:28Why?
2:21:28Why?
2:21:35I didn't want to raise it in the briefing because it would tend to expand the story.
2:21:49Why not expand it?
2:21:50I want you to go out and call the president right now.
2:22:00I want you to imagine this.
2:22:01I want the story expanded.
2:22:03And I'll take this now.
2:22:06This is a totally false story in all respects.
2:22:10First, the president has never, the president has never discussed ABM with Fletcher.
2:22:21Or with any other, no, no, no, with Fletcher.
2:22:23He has never discussed ABM with Fletcher.
2:22:27The president's only meeting with Fletcher.
2:22:30was when he took his hand and put this down.
2:22:33Now, I've only met the son of a bitch once in my life, and I don't like him either.
2:22:39When I met him the afternoon after dinner, he received one.
2:22:41So we're going to knock him right out of the box.
2:22:46The third thing is, the president has never expressed to anybody any doubt
2:22:52about the, this is totally wrong, third, and that the CBS was completely wrong.
2:22:59I want you to knock it right out of the box.
2:23:01Yes, sir.
2:23:01All right, that's what they're doing.
2:23:05Can I ask you one other thing?
2:23:07Sure, sure.
2:23:08I was at a Sulzberger event this morning.
2:23:13I was at a Sulzberger event in Texas.
2:23:17I assume I can say this .
2:23:35That was an honorary interview.
2:23:38What do they do with honorary interviews?
2:23:40I had one with Stuart Alsop and I had one with Dick Willis.
2:23:44But my point is, what's your problem then?
2:23:47Well, they want... See, because Salsberger not only wrote a story on Reagan's question, but then the New York Times ran an excerpt's notes
2:23:55Well, and they will answer his notes when I ask him a question.
2:24:00And they just run it as a story, just like any interview.
2:24:03I don't judge.
2:24:04What Ron wants to say to the President is that the President is quoted accurately.
2:24:08Now, the point that I make is that the President, if he read the story, of course he did.
2:24:15I didn't.
2:24:16I did not.
2:24:16I never asked to edit the text.
2:24:20I never asked anyone to submit the text to me for editing.
2:24:25And I would say that in general, this reflects the substance of the interview, that's all.
2:24:33But it's not something that I want any indication that I read about it.
2:24:37I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to.
2:24:39Have you got a difference?
2:24:43Are you lying?
2:24:44Well, if I say in general, it reflects the substance of the interview.
2:24:48See, what they're talking about is the portion that Sulzberger wrote, so you hear it as a text.
2:24:52It seems to me that is not to us to release.
2:24:53That's up to the New York Times.
2:24:55Well, how can you say it wasn't on the record interview?
2:24:59And it's obviously, that's right, that's Sulzberger's report.
2:25:02The White House doesn't verify or deny the extract report.
2:25:04It's on the record interview.
2:25:07No, sir.
2:25:07There was no transcript.
2:25:08There was no recording.
2:25:09He made notes.
2:25:10And that's it.
2:25:11It was an on-the-record interview.
2:25:13And I say, is there anything that you would not stand by in that?
2:25:23Just say, you know, I'm not going to, I just, we just do a comment.
2:25:27We have, the President has interviews with numbers of reporters.
2:25:30So we're starting to think that, yeah, that was all on-the-record.
2:25:33You remember?
2:25:34Did they ask you to verify that?
2:25:37No.
2:25:37Same thing.
2:25:38Because they re-rent that.
2:25:39They rent all kinds of stuff.
2:25:41It's on the record.
2:25:42It's like any on-the-record interview.
2:25:44Just say, just establish the rule that if you have an on-the-record interview, we're not going to say no use.
2:25:50What they want is to use it on their own.
2:25:51Right.
2:25:52No, sir.
2:25:54Use it as... No.
2:25:55Well, my point is that's exactly right.
2:25:58It's an on-the-record interview, just like the other interviews that he's had at least...
2:26:04Excuse me.
2:26:05It doesn't differ between reporters.
2:26:07It's an on-the-record interview.
2:26:10It doesn't... Do you know anything that's wrong or right about it?
2:26:13It's an on-the-record interview.
2:26:17That's all.
2:26:17Is it?
2:26:18What, Marty, would you like to say?
2:26:19I don't know, sir.
2:26:22The change, if you make it authorized, is still printed as a presidential statement.
2:26:27Which is not what I will allow.
2:26:30See, I'm not going to issue a presidential statement to a reporter.
2:26:33This is an on-the-record interview.
2:26:36And frankly, the president does not put it this way.
2:26:40The president always follows the policy, as the interview states, of never editing.
2:26:51but a reporter reports, and he will not comment on the reporter's reports.
2:26:57That's the common thing, it's the on-the-rack interview and comments.
2:27:00As far as reporters concern, that's it.
2:27:04Why don't you just lay it right there.
2:27:06I've seen a reason for you to get into the business of making a news story on it from here, you see.
2:27:10Well, except it's a good story, and from the viewpoint of, from our viewpoint, it's good to get that, but get it used.
2:27:18And nobody's going to go and deep back up then and say that there is no, you know, I would say there's nothing in this as there was in the worst form.
2:27:27I'd throw into that too.
2:27:28Just like the worst form is gone more in this one.
2:27:34I think you're better off with your position.
2:27:38I just leave it just where the President does.
2:27:42He never edits.
2:27:43I think the idea that I don't edit, that the President never edits.
2:27:50And it's up to the reporter to reflect.
2:27:53What was your point?
2:27:57That's all.
2:27:58That's enough.
2:28:01But I want you to hit CBS for that.
2:28:03I want it because of the importance of the issue.
2:28:05Yes, sir.
2:28:07And I just say that.
2:28:08Just knock it right out of the box.
2:28:09Yes, sir.
2:28:09Don't you think it should be in there?
2:28:13I think... You saw the story.
2:28:15Oh, yeah.
2:28:16I think Fletcher should hit it, frankly.
2:28:18Oh, I thought that your client was talking to Fletcher, and we'll talk to him again.
2:28:22He tested positive.
2:28:24The White House should not get out, too.
2:28:27We ought to make sure that...
2:28:28I want to take it on specifically, and I want to discredit Fletcher right before he starts his job, too, for being such an ass.
2:28:35He's undoubtedly said something here.
2:28:38I know these Sniders.
2:28:42thing to do personally.
2:28:43I have never discussed it with him.
2:28:45I have met him once in a receiving line at the NASA dinner in which we had no discussion of substance whatever.
2:28:52Yes, sir.
2:28:52Let's put it right.
2:28:54Well, does that make us look good?
2:28:56Why?
2:28:57Okay.
2:28:58Well, to appoint a NASA director.
2:28:59No, seriously.
2:29:00I don't think that's what I should do.
2:29:03But you can say you've never discussed it with him.
2:29:05But I can say the person's never talked about me.
2:29:09We've never had one word of discussion.
2:29:11It's got nothing to do with this.
2:29:13I've never had any discussion at any time with him.
2:29:16Or with any other people from NASA about the idea.
2:29:19Okay.
2:29:20I agree.
2:29:20He probably did something.
2:29:21It wasn't such something.
2:29:24The scientists are always kissing.
2:29:26Brown doesn't each other.
2:29:27You know what this is.
2:29:29But Joe Alvarado, he has such a time, I mean, you know, he gets out there, he's pressing people back, he puts shit on them, and I don't know how he takes it.
2:29:40Having a little trouble.
2:29:41He gets a problem.
2:29:42His problem is that he gets, he gets the impression, well, we give something to them, and then we give it to you, and then other press men are mad.
2:29:49Of course they are.
2:29:50That's why we did it.
2:29:52What the Christ is he thinking if we did it?
2:29:53I don't think he's ready for that.
2:29:55Huh?
2:29:55Oh, yeah.
2:29:56That's the, they're back where they all are.
2:29:58What I told Alsop was that if he writes about it, what he should say is that the most remarkable thing about it is
2:30:22That you did this without any staff assistance whatsoever.
2:30:25No, President.
2:30:26That no one, that I did not give you one line of suggestions of even topics to cover.
2:30:33Because I saw that the executive was not present.
2:30:36I would say that the president, in joke, he writes something that he can say, and you can tell stewards, too.
2:30:43The interesting thing about this president is that he is one of the few who sees a press man alone.
2:30:48I saw him alone.
2:30:50And I saw, you know, I saw Dicey Joe alone.
2:30:53And I saw this guy alone.
2:30:57Brother, not only did you see them alone, but yourself, I mean, I've heard a lot more.
2:31:04But the content of the interview was entirely your own.
2:31:07There wasn't one even suggestion for topics to cover.
2:31:12And I don't know any president who's done that.
2:31:20What was the thing your wife liked?
2:31:23Well, he said he liked his weave, his modesty, his grasp.
2:31:29He said we haven't had a president who has this sensitivity.
2:31:33in foreign policy in his lifetime, in fact.
2:31:40All he was really, he called and he was going on and on.
2:31:44I agree, I agree.
2:31:45And he initiated, no, I thought I agreed with that.
2:31:48I just talked about it.
2:31:49I talked to him the way I talked to everybody else around me.
2:31:51That's the only reason I did it for him.
2:31:53It's very simple.
2:31:55The New York Times, Henry, has been disgraceful in its coverage of our foreign policy agenda.
2:32:00But Eastman and Cy Salzberger has been fighting a very lonely battle against Oaks and Preston on foreign policy.
2:32:09And so I thought that I read it to screw the other rest of the New York Times, but that's all it was to do.
2:32:14But I thought you think it was right.
2:32:16I think it was right and I think it was enormously effective.
2:32:20And I'm getting this word now to a lot of the press.
2:32:23Evans and Novak are doing a book about you, and I met with them yesterday.
2:32:26I think it won't be so unfavorable.
2:32:28Why should we call McNamara?
2:32:29I, uh, I don't, I don't ever know him.
2:32:31Bob, I think I'll call him Mr. McNamara.
2:32:34What's your name?
2:32:37Don't be close.
2:32:42No, you can call him Mr. McNamara.
2:32:45But if you could add a measure, Andrew, to know how much you appreciate this.
2:32:49Well, I say appreciate the conversation you've had with Andrew.
2:33:01How's that?
2:33:01That would be very helpful.
2:33:03Because he's really been very, very helpful also with the other Democrats.
2:33:11And he hasn't said a word publicly yet, sir.
2:33:16I was at a dinner with him at Joe Alsop's house where Pritchie attacked you on Lowe's and he nearly tore into pieces.
2:33:32John Freeman.
2:33:33Good morning.
2:33:38That's me.
2:33:46I talked to Bill this morning.
2:33:50They were going all out for a confrontation with Israel.
2:34:06That was good.
2:34:07That was partly a result of the meeting.
2:34:12I talked to him after the meeting.
2:34:16And also, Helms was very upset by the meeting because he said we were going to head into the toughest confrontation without any prospect of success.
2:34:25So Bill now agrees with my view, which is
2:34:31to let the Suez thing run at least for a week or so, and then see where we are with that before we go back to the...
2:34:38I think these little notes... Oh, they're very good.
2:34:41Very good.
2:34:45Very good.
2:34:46That means that... McNamara has it in his head that you're thinking of displacing him.
2:35:02And he thinks that undercuts his position.
2:35:05I told him I'd never heard of it.
2:35:08And that's what I'm trying to do.
2:35:11He told me in newsletters, in some fact newsletters, saying that you were keeping Kennedy, David Kennedy, in reserve to replace him when his term was up.
2:35:24When's his term up?
2:35:25in 73, and he said that he said that it'd be bad to have this political office, and if you wanted him out, he'd leave without the end of his term.
2:35:39But he didn't think that was it.
2:35:42He's doing an excellent job, and he's been more help to you there.
2:35:47He and Freeman were the only two liberals in town who consistently supported you.
2:35:53Well, I've got another bike around this way.
2:36:07Freeman is now head of the private television camera.
2:36:11The, uh, one of the three channels in England.
2:36:16He's chairman of the board of chief executive officers.
2:36:20He just got the job.
2:36:26He, uh, talked to him this morning.
2:36:28He said he wants to send you his warmest regard and high respect.
2:36:38We're having a...
2:36:40Wonderful.
2:36:41You'll love that.
2:36:46So getting back to the interview, I'll tell you, uh, with, with, uh...
2:36:55Oh, exactly.
2:37:16Well, I know, but we don't believe that he is the New York Times.
2:37:21A lot of people don't realize that he is in a hell of a fight with those.
2:37:26You know that.
2:37:27Oh, yeah.
2:37:29So...
2:37:32So the average person reading it, the average person reading it, even the average intellectual reading the Times, will think that the Times, you know, is your brother.
2:37:40Now, what I was trying to do here, people with two audiences, one of the Times audiences, they'll say Saul Stricker writes it, so that's good.
2:37:49So maybe the Times thinks better of us.
2:37:52Second, it does something else.
2:37:54It just eats the ass out of Scotty Reston and those guys.
2:37:57Oh my God, so, but I don't know, what I'll tell you, the way it happened, he came in,
2:38:04And he said, you know, when we met, I saw him a year ago, he said, what were your goals, what was your goals for the country?
2:38:11I said, I wonder if you would talk about, we had about 18 questions that I asked.
2:38:18I just proceeded to talk for 30 minutes about any question.
2:38:21I said, well, I said, just let me tell you what I want to see happen.
2:38:26And I just talked to him, like we always talk here.
2:38:29And he just sat there and took notes.
2:38:32And
2:38:34So it came out.
2:38:35It came out only because he actually reflected what I was really trying to say.
2:38:42And Alsop was pleased with it.
2:38:44Alsop was ecstatic about it.
2:38:45Because of the tone.
2:38:46Because of the tone and, of course, the substance.
2:38:49He totally agreed with the substance of the sweep and what you said about the importance of Southeast Asia and what you said about your conversation with Mrs. Mayer.
2:38:58Well, he was really, he thought it was one of the most profound and sensitive statements.
2:39:05Did he get all that in?
2:39:08All those things?
2:39:08Oh, yeah.
2:39:09Oh, no, he had the whole...
2:39:12I liked it very much.
2:39:14But as I was telling you, Evan and Novak are doing a book.
2:39:18And they talked to me yesterday and they said, now, how has the president changed in the last few years of foreign policy?
2:39:24And I said, you know, the remarkable thing is how little he's changed.
2:39:27He had a very well-developed philosophy when he came here.
2:39:31And he's implementing it.
2:39:32He's, of course, everybody learns in the job about the bureaucracy and how to maneuver it.
2:39:38But on substance,
2:39:40He's doing what he came here to do.
2:39:43And they said they believe now that they've watched it, and that's right.
2:39:46The thing about it is you read the World Report, and also they should go back then and read the piece that we did for Foreign Affairs.
2:39:54That's what I told them.
2:39:55The Green Guam Conference.
2:39:56I told them.
2:39:57And see that it's all part of the piece.
2:39:58I told them.
2:39:59And also the thing over there at...
2:40:02all part of a piece.
2:40:03And then the other thing that you might fill them in on is that, you know, you might, and I don't mind your cooperating with me all the way on a thing like this, say I, myself, because they're, you know, play their own games.
2:40:18See, they write one on me, one on anybody else, but you could, you could fill them in on that.
2:40:29I went through your trips with them, I said, now, and I gave them a few vignettes here and there to make it more personal.
2:40:40And what the impact you had on the leaders.
2:40:47Then they said about Romania, they had heard it was improvised.
2:40:50I said, I explained to them.
2:40:54I put it in context of your China policy.
2:40:57I said you had to establish some principle of how to deal with autonomous communist states, that this had been all part of a peace, long-planned, and I think they're going to do on foreign policy, I don't know what they're going to say on domestic policy.
2:41:16Oh, what I don't know.
2:41:19But I spent about two hours with them last evening.
2:41:22When are they going to come out?
2:41:24November.
2:41:26This year?
2:41:26Yes.
2:41:28They've got to get it going.
2:41:32We are having, I can't say that it's a problem, but I think the South Vietnamese want to get out of Laos and do it within the next two weeks.
2:41:48I've been in touch with Bunker and Abrams, and I said, of course, their military judgment is governing.
2:41:55But they should just make sure that they do it because that's the reason.
2:42:02My view is that politically, diplomatically, the North Vietnamese will play this into a big victory if they leave, no matter how they leave.
2:42:11They leave this quickly.
2:42:13And that militarily we won't get everything out of this operation.
2:42:17We'll get the caches, which are important, and the casualties.
2:42:21But the interruption of supplies, if they could hang in there another three or four weeks, they're not under bad attack right now.
2:42:27What I think it is, and what Bunker thinks it is, is that you want to have a victory parade in Saigon and use it that way.
2:42:38But I don't think we should do anything.
2:42:40I don't think we should force them to stay.
2:42:44I just want you to be aware of the fact that Abrams is going up to talk to them today and tomorrow.
2:42:50How is he reporting this to us?
2:42:54Back-channel?
2:42:56Back-channel tomorrow.
2:42:56Yeah, he's telling you to stay?
2:43:00No, but not to Laird, because Laird has just... Now, one thing Laird has done, which I didn't know, he has put a limit on American support only until April 5th.
2:43:11And I've told Moro that that's nonsense, that if they want to stay beyond that, you turn the other right side.
2:43:21That's right, that's what we, that's May 1st.
2:43:25My view is if they could... You see, it's March 10th now.
2:43:27Well, it's March 10th now.
2:43:29It's the beginning of a month and a day, or about 29 days, 30 days.
2:43:34But I don't think...
2:43:35I've watched these truck movements.
2:43:37They haven't really got a stranglehold of these movements until the last few days.
2:43:42If they could stay, say, another month, until about April 5th or 10th, and then start slowly to withdraw...
2:43:53then they can't ship any, then the rainy season will prevent any shipment.
2:43:58As it is now, they can probably make up in April what they lost in March.
2:44:04I think the strategic gain for us next year is worth some casualties this year.
2:44:13But we can't insist on it.
2:44:15No, no, we can't insist on it particularly, Henry, because...
2:44:21He says when they take a bank, they'll swivel.
2:44:23Absolutely.
2:44:23And they'll swivel.
2:44:25Everybody will swivel.
2:44:26Well, they're not planning to do it, thank God.
2:44:30So... What is the situation?
2:44:33How bad is the building?
2:44:35Is that really it?
2:44:36That isn't the reason.
2:44:37I think it's electoral politics.
2:44:41I think Pew, and I must tell you honestly, now that I've seen the operation,
2:44:48The South Vietnamese Army is not as good as we all thought last year.
2:44:52For example, in the chop operation, now the tree is dead.
2:44:58They're just moving around.
2:45:00They are just, wherever the North Vietnamese are, they are not.
2:45:02I mean, you can see they're moving like crazy, but they're always moving in areas where there are no North Vietnamese in the field.
2:45:11Why are they coming down to where everybody's facing?
2:45:15were just, this was all worth doing at all.
2:45:18We knew they weren't that good.
2:45:20We knew they were not tentative.
2:45:22They weren't tentative.
2:45:23But this is hope.
2:45:25This is hope for them to be in there and do a little fighting.
2:45:28And they'll be a lot better.
2:45:29They're better now.
2:45:30They're about like the Austrians were in 1915 and 16.
2:45:35when they were a little bit better than they were when they took the hell out of the meeting in London.
2:45:38But they aren't worth a damn.
2:45:40They're not up to the Germans.
2:45:41The North Vietnamese are up to the Germans.
2:45:43That's just what it is.
2:45:45Whatever chance they've got, we gave them this Cambodian love.
2:45:50But I think now that after this is over, particularly if they could stay through April, we ought to go back to the North Vietnamese and see whether we can't get this thing wound up.
2:46:05And I think we might, they've extended their deadline now.
2:46:10They said if, you know, they used to say June 30th this year, now they're saying December 31st.
2:46:15And another three months they may say July 1st, and then we're in business.
2:46:25We'll have to make that decision now.
2:46:26What do we do?
2:46:27I wonder if I should get more over here and talk a little about this subject.
2:46:32Well, let's wait till we hear from Abrams.
2:46:35I want to learn about it, but I've got to know.
2:46:38I've got to know what Abrams thinks about this.
2:46:40Well, I have.
2:46:41Abrams is opposed to it.
2:46:43No, I know, but I want to know.
2:46:44Well, who is pushing it then?
2:46:47Are you getting it from Chu?
2:46:48Yes.
2:46:49Chu is what?
2:46:50What is he directly pushing?
2:46:52Well, he's pushing a plan for withdrawal.
2:46:55Starting now?
2:46:57Starting in about a week.
2:47:00Starting in three days, in fact.
2:47:03out of Chippewa and then 10 more days out of other areas.
2:47:06And going back through since 11 or now?
2:47:09This isn't so clear to me.
2:47:10And what will be the argument for it when they're out then?
2:47:16It gives no argument.
2:47:18But this, we will know more.
2:47:21Mora doesn't know any more than he said.
2:47:22Let me say this.
2:47:23In this case.
2:47:24It could work both ways.
2:47:27I'm sure they're going to leave the beach and claim anything they want.
2:47:33But nevertheless, if the South Vietnamese do withdraw another, we just have to make the best of it.
2:47:39Oh, yeah.
2:47:39And fortunately, we have gotten a couple of good stories.
2:47:42We've had about three days' run of pretty good stories.
2:47:44We've had nothing but good stories, that's right.
2:47:47Yes.
2:47:47And now they say we've accomplished our objective and we're moving out.
2:47:51They should go down to 611 or whatever the hell it is and do something like that.
2:47:56I would prefer they stay.
2:47:56I'm with you.
2:47:58But, Henry, I have become completely faithless to give up.
2:48:01It's not a bad thing.
2:48:03I don't think they're up to a real man.
2:48:05I don't think they're up to a real man.
2:48:08And if they're not up to it, I don't want them to take that old man.
2:48:11I'd rather have him get out and then we're going to get the hell out and hold him free and nothing happens before 1978.
2:48:18But we'll get the report of Abrams tomorrow.
2:48:20And we also want to remember that even though we're still in the back of the air, that now we've had bad weather, and it's a pity because now they're pushing a lot of supplies in there.
2:48:35And the bad weather is going to stay there another three or four days.
2:48:40Bad weather you mean?
2:48:42In North Vietnam, it really is bad.
2:48:44It's even bad in Southern Laos.
2:48:47so bad that they couldn't even fly helicopters.
2:48:52And Abrams... Let me say this.
2:48:57At this point, there is a pretty good damn risk to do it anyway.
2:49:06If there is that, then the thing to do is to claim a psychological victory.
2:49:16Oh, if Abrams determines they can't do it, we shouldn't.
2:49:20Then we must let them get out.
2:49:22If they're just going through one of their periodic depressions, I think the benefits now, three weeks now, could be worth two months and three months next year.
2:49:35And to be hit next February with a major offensive there.
2:49:41I still think your original judgment was right to take the heat now rather than next year, and you have.
2:49:49And in a way, we've turned the corner.
2:49:52But I just wanted to prepare you.
2:49:55We've done what we can.
2:49:56We've told Abrams that in our judgment that the restriction of April 5th that you had given May 1st, really, that that should not govern him.
2:50:08But that if, for other military reasons, they have to do it, he's the judge of it, and we don't interfere in that.
2:50:16And he's not taking a trip up there to assess the situation.
2:50:20He'll report back tomorrow, and I'll get in touch with you, and Laura will get in touch with you immediately.
2:50:25How is this working, then?
2:50:28He reports how, through Laura.
2:50:31Through Laura.
2:50:32Back channel.
2:50:32Right.
2:50:33Laura knows that he's got to not let that little layer down.
2:50:36Oh, God.
2:50:36You know, Jesus, I noticed that you had a...
2:50:41something in here with the effect of Laird.
2:50:43Laird put out some story, or he said it probably personally did, the effect that he was pushing for a fashion withdrawal.
2:50:51Oh, he's playing his usual game again.
2:50:52He's playing the usual one.
2:50:56Oh, he's already putting out the stuff.
2:50:58Just a hot fashion one withdrawal.
2:51:00Yeah.
2:51:01Well, that's why we've got to take that withdrawal and handle it our own way.
2:51:06Now, Henry, it's...
2:51:08From now on, we've been heroes long enough where now we've just got to revive all that matters to psychology, believe me.
2:51:16All that matters.
2:51:17And we've given them a hell of a chance.
2:51:19We've given our guys a chance.
2:51:21And the North Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese aren't as good.
2:51:24And despite them being pure, aren't as good as we thought.
2:51:29I think you're right.
2:51:30I don't think they're as bad.
2:51:32Oh, no, they're not his fans.
2:51:34They're doing pretty well, and whatever chance they've got, they got through what we did for them.
2:51:41I think we ought to send Hagar next week, and Laird is agreeable to it now, to look at the withdrawal plan, and also to peace.
2:51:53We know Abrams won't be there till Sunday.
2:51:56Any time from the weekend on, he should go.
2:52:00All right, let's get him off right away.
2:52:03Get him, get him out there.
2:52:05And while he's at it, he ought to hop over to Cambodia and see and talk to Ladd.
2:52:08Yes, and talk to Ladd.
2:52:10You see, you know, that, you see, that's been out of the news.
2:52:13Cambodia crashed every day.
2:52:14They're losing Cambodia.
2:52:15And over here, they're going to lose one of us.
2:52:17It's clear they're not going to.
2:52:18And the other side is having some problems.
2:52:20They've got to be having some problems.
2:52:22Well, the other side is taking to its core.
2:52:24We've got to just, just pour them on.
2:52:26They would, that's why I think
2:52:29The only factor on the troop thing that we ought to keep in mind is how to play it vis-a-vis the chance for a home run this summer.
2:52:39But I'm getting various schemes together for you, among which some very big ones and some medium ones and some smaller ones, so you can decide.
2:52:49Well, the idea of the home run being that you give them a small troop withdrawal announcement
2:52:57Well, a fairly small one.
2:52:58You're committed to 12,500 a month.
2:53:00Oh, yes.
2:53:00That we know what we're going to do.
2:53:04But give them a fairly small one.
2:53:07Then meet Lee Doctoe in Paris and say, look, let's separate the military issue.
2:53:15Let's agree on a total U.S. withdrawal by, say, next July 1st in return for freeing of the prisoners.
2:53:23Cease fire.
2:53:26And that's essentially it.
2:53:30If they release all the prisoners.
2:53:35And I think it'd be a home run.
2:53:39It'd be better if we could get the ceasefire through 72.
2:53:49I think we have to keep a residual force in South Vietnam.
2:53:56I'm not a reporter.
2:53:57I don't think the South Vietnamese are... Well, it'd be desirable, but I don't...
2:54:02I don't think you're going to support it.
2:54:04It was my career somewhere.
2:54:05Mr. President, your re-election is really important.
2:54:08I'm afraid we have too many chips on South Vietnam.
2:54:13And in my re-election, it's important, let's remember, I've got to get this off our plate.
2:54:19And if it's important, then Henry, we've got to get it off the plate.
2:54:22But that's why I think a negotiation would get it off your plate in a way that establishes your dominance.
2:54:29I would much prefer that.
2:54:31Because if you sort of dribble out and then you can't really get out completely.
2:54:37You've got to have a residual force there without a negotiation.
2:54:44And I think there is now a 50-50 chance that they find that.
2:54:49They're uncharacteristically shaky right now.
2:54:51That's why...
2:54:52But Zhou Enlai, that picture is solely for propaganda, wasn't it?
2:54:56Oh, yes, but the mere fact that they trot out the Chinese this way, and Zhou Enlai made a speech, which will probably be reported as very tough, but what he said was, if the U.S. expands the war further, then we will do whatever is necessary.
2:55:15But that means we will not do it now.
2:55:21I mean, they're really meaning expanding to the north.
2:55:29It's a scary layer of the bombing going on.
2:55:32Well, I think if this happens, actually the bombing now is militarily very useful, both for the attack they may be planning, but they may not attack so quickly.
2:55:43They're also repositioning their forces to the north.
2:55:48They're pulling them actually a little further back, but they're putting them along the route we are planning to go out on.
2:55:54So they may be, they may have to suddenly be penetrated.
2:55:57Hmm.
2:56:02Say they're putting them along the route.
2:56:03Well, you see their track is going out on Route 914, which is the one that goes through Area 611.
2:56:10And that's where they're putting their forces.
2:56:15It actually helps us in the present phase of the operation because the pressure from the south has diminished.
2:56:25Since the battle on Hill 31, there hasn't been any major North Vietnamese there.
2:56:30They should have had a hell of a lot of them going home.
2:56:36They apparently have finally gone in.
2:56:39There's no doubt they made that happen.
2:56:42And they're getting a lot of caches.
2:56:44Are they?
2:56:45Well, the truth is we are getting them by bombing them, and they are uncovering them.
2:56:49I mean, they blow up the caches when they find the uncovered caches.
2:56:54Why wouldn't we batten them by bombing them before they hit when you were bombing all that area?
2:57:03Well, because we didn't have them so pencil and paper.
2:57:05Spotted in the ground.
2:57:07Yeah.
2:57:07I mean, now we're getting...
2:57:10We're getting, and we're concentrating it in this area.
2:57:13But they are getting some of that off.
2:57:16And they are cutting into the truck traffic now.
2:57:20They haven't?
2:57:21No, it has not done it.
2:57:22They've got nine bulls, back we know.
2:57:25Oh yeah, but that...
2:57:26They're all nine.
2:57:27Nine fourteen.
2:57:28Well, they're within a hundred yards of nine fourteen now.
2:57:30For Christ's sake, they haven't got that old thing much to do down there.
2:57:37Now when they are at 914 at its northern leg, before 234 branches are no more useless things of their own.
2:57:46It will be useless a year from now, I hope.
2:57:52So I think we're going to go on a lot of thinking about this.
2:57:59I agree.
2:57:59The best way to end this is diplomatically.
2:58:01I told Lansfield that this morning.
2:58:03I said, Mike, I mean, I always, you know, put a little care out there.
2:58:06I said, now I know all of your fellows are pushing for this.
2:58:10I said, I can't do this.
2:58:11I can't agree to this.
2:58:16There's still a chance for a negotiation if we can.
2:58:19I've got to keep that card.
2:58:20I can't initiate an advance to get everything we want without negotiations.
2:58:26That's true.
2:58:27And so I said, therefore, we're going to continue to push along our own course.
2:58:31We could get a negotiation to be the thing.
2:58:33There's a chance for it.
2:58:37On the other hand, in terms of keeping these bottles in here,
2:58:43Let me say, remember I told you once before, do not risk Jews' re-election.
2:58:50Do not risk the South Vietnamese defeat.
2:58:53Now, if, in other words, even though we know that next year it is true that this is going to guarantee it or something, and maybe if they stay, but if there's a really modest chance of even the South Vietnamese taking a rap, tell them to get the hell out.
2:59:09When Abrams is up there now to take a look at the situation, I, and he'll make a report.
2:59:18And then, but actually it's not our decision.
2:59:21Yes.
2:59:22We are not pushing them.
2:59:23All we told them was, in the end, that we are not putting a limit on it in terms of our support.
2:59:27And I think in terms of victory and defeat and so forth and so on, it's now gone long enough, frankly, that it, you know, because when we, what we're talking about now, it's not four weeks, it'll take two weeks for it to get the hell out.
2:59:41Well, we have...
2:59:42It'll take two weeks to get out of there, isn't it?
2:59:48My point is that we still say, well, and so they've accomplished their objective, you know, they've destroyed the caches, they've done this, and now they're according to plan, they're withdrawing, and there's nothing there.
3:00:03We can handle the public relations battle easily enough.
3:00:07In substance, the fact is, we would not have gained this strategic success.
3:00:12We would have inflicted a defeat on them and a pick-up on them.
3:00:16Any alternative would have been...
3:00:17I understand.
3:00:19But it would have accomplished something.
3:00:21Oh, yes.
3:00:21Sounds good.
3:00:22Second point.
3:00:23You've got a way...
3:00:25what you would gain by affecting the strategic defeat upon them by the risk, and it's a very great risk, of any kind of defeat on the South Vietnamese at this point.
3:00:37That has happened.
3:00:38It not only has an effect on us here that we screw this thing up, but it also has an effect on Jews' real action.
3:00:46And so therefore, Henry,
3:00:48We just got away with those two things.
3:00:50No question.
3:00:51Absolutely.
3:00:51And there is where I think they'll listen very damn carefully to what they have to say.
3:00:57Oh, no question.
3:00:58And they appear not pushing them at all.
3:01:01I'm beginning to think we're not going to get a Russian reply, and they're getting, they're going through one of their tough phases again.
3:01:09Their tender, for example, was a search across the Atlantic and on the way out, and now they've put it back in.
3:01:18They're just playing these cheap little games and their general instructions to the party conquerors are to play a hard line on foreign policies.
3:01:27How do you know?
3:01:30We've got it through intelligence.
3:01:36But that's still, I would still recommend that we let salt start and then sometime early in April you just publicly propose
3:01:47what we had put into the letter to Kosykin, and then let them turn us down.
3:01:52Well, in your opinion, at the present time, they don't want to sign.
3:01:57My opinion is that they're so occupied now with the party Congress, that who would, that... Why, isn't it that they're really responsible for all those 700 to get signed us up?
3:02:07No, I think they have two choices.
3:02:09Either the guy who, it might have been, well, that might be Wondry's, might also be the fellow who
3:02:18May Burgess, one of the key figures, whoever it is, may be passionate, thought he might get it to win success and solve before the thing.
3:02:30Now they may figure that they'd rather have their party Congress first and have him do it afterwards.
3:02:37Maybe the fact is that his domestic situation isn't so clear so that he wouldn't get the credit for it.
3:02:46Uh, maybe that's the reason.
3:02:48When is the party congress?
3:02:52On the 30th.
3:02:52For a week.
3:02:5330th of March?
3:02:53Yes.
3:02:5530th of March for a week?
3:02:56Come here.
3:02:59And after that, then you might get us on revival.
3:03:04And after that, I'd recommend that we then make a public statement to them.
3:03:10Good.
3:03:11Good day, Mr. President.
3:03:12C.E.S.
3:03:13Dan Shuler.
3:03:14The rebellious.
3:03:15Good.
3:03:15The President's never talked to the Secretary about this?
3:03:18On the other thing, I don't think there's much sense in giving more of it because he doesn't know what I meant.
3:03:25I meant on the other end.
3:03:27I see no reason for you to talk to the President again.
3:03:32I've talked to him Friday, and he knows what to make of it.
3:03:39And if he doesn't have it, it's... What did you tell him?
3:03:43I told him...
3:03:45He wanted something that would do it this way.
3:03:47He wanted to hold something on this meeting.
3:03:52Oh, you mean on the Cupid thing?
3:03:55No, not on the Cupid thing.
3:03:57I don't think he did that.
3:04:00He said he was sending a telegram and he would expect it to be by Tuesday or Wednesday.
3:04:05We'll see.
3:04:06But I have not asked him.
3:04:09No.
3:04:10Again?
3:04:11No, I think it was you.
3:04:13I think it was you.
3:04:37This has to do with all of our assault decisions.
3:04:40Well, I said, I said that Harrison particularly wanted me to make it clear that his position on both the inspiration of his original decision on ADM
3:04:57His annual reviews on the ABM, which he did in close consultation with all the agencies in the government, have been misrepresented.
3:05:05And he does not want an issue which is so white that it's on the ABM system.
3:05:10Actually, that he misrepresented, and it was misrepresented, any suggestion that the President had apprehension about his ABM system,
3:05:18is totally without foundation.
3:05:19The President has total confidence in the system and you know that type of thing.
3:05:25I said not only has the President of the United States never discussed this with Mr. Fletcher,
3:05:33He has never discussed it with anyone else, any doubts about the APNs.
3:05:38Then they led me into the thing.
3:05:40Well, has he met with Fletcher?
3:05:42So I used it, and I said, well, he met him, I think, at a reception over here.
3:05:47So I was able to kick that in.
3:05:51I just saw your name.
3:05:52CBS got in line, huh?
3:05:54Well, not only the whole country, but it's a very good story.
3:05:59Good.
3:05:59Well, that's good.
3:06:01You see, Ron, sometimes we have to pick our enemies, too.
3:06:07And sometimes it's necessary.
3:06:10We sort of tend to say, well, we'll sort of tell and play a story.
3:06:15I was thinking, for example, I was thinking, for example,
3:06:21Yeah.
3:06:23I was having lunch.
3:06:49I'll tell him.
3:06:51I'll tell him.
3:06:58Okay.
3:06:59There are other cars.
3:07:17What do you think George did?
3:07:19Do you think he just made up the goddamn story?
3:07:21Well, I don't know.
3:07:22Or do you think Fletcher did say something?
3:07:24Well, Fletcher had one lady.
3:07:26I have never met Fletcher.
3:07:28Believe me, I never met Fletcher.
3:07:30They asked me, well, does Fletcher support the ABM system?
3:07:33And I told them, I said that my conversation with him, he said that he had no concern about the ABM system, but you asked Fletcher, he'd be on the other side.
3:07:42And I've gotten the word through to Fletcher that he by God better say support ABM.
3:07:50The whole of the construction is out of the building.
3:07:52We're heading to the factory stands, sir.
3:07:57Well, here's what I was going to tell you.
3:08:53Sometimes it's necessary to, on these things right now, to, like we're going to pick up pretty hard on this next opening.
3:09:07I think that they send you out and kind of press, put you in a position where we're just sort of trying to avoid a flap.
3:09:13You know, well, the question is brave, he won't try to do anything, and so forth and so on.
3:09:21I think that...
3:09:23I think that we've got to look for opportunities when you can get up and knock their goddamn brains out.
3:09:29Yes, sir.
3:09:30David, what I want you to do, and we're going to change your posture a little now, if you say in that respect, your briefings are excellent.
3:09:39They couldn't be better, I know.
3:09:40But I think that now we can make New Year's a greater asset, but I think you've just got to, sometimes you've got to go, wham, like that.
3:09:48Now on this one, it needed to be wham.
3:09:50And I didn't want to wait.
3:09:52I didn't want to wait until they had that.
3:09:55Well, there was a certain amount of drama and going back out to it.
3:09:59But David Lawrence, oh yes, I played that game.
3:10:01You know, I come out.
3:10:03But he said, well, what was the president's attitude?
3:10:06I said he was irritated.
3:10:07Now, I thought before I said that, but I thought we should express an irritation.
3:10:15I said he was irritated about an erroneous report.
3:10:21Completely false.
3:10:22That's what I said.
3:10:24I didn't want to use angered or anything.
3:10:27If I would have used nothing, I could have used nothing, but I think it was okay to express that point from the White House.
3:10:35David Lawrence made a point in this column a day or two ago that it is normal tradition within marshes and people in the White House
3:10:47that they do not respond to criticism that comes from the critics, like from the Congress or from someone else, because they don't want to escalate the story.
3:10:56But the point he makes is that over a period of time, you have all of this criticism coming against the presidential programs, about the policies the White House is making, and those pile up on top of one another.
3:11:10And his point was,
3:11:12From time to time, the White House should address those critics so that our position is out.
3:11:18Now, quite frankly, we over the last two years have followed the posture that we don't escalate the circle.
3:11:32I know that there are times when you want to pick enemies.
3:11:37Connolly's a great believer.
3:11:39Sometimes he says, you've got to pick your enemy.
3:11:42You've got to escalate the story.
3:11:43You want to escalate the story.
3:11:45Make it a story.
3:11:46Fight it.
3:11:46Get him a fight about this.
3:11:49I think the Vice President has been used so much, I don't think we should use him.
3:11:54I use the analogy out here.
3:12:02I said, for heaven's sakes, when a report appears in the newspaper about something that the administration has done based upon the source, you ask me all the time to see if it's correct.
3:12:17I said, well, here was a report on television.
3:12:19It should not be immune if it puts out a
3:12:23false impression from us putting on our statement.
3:12:27They said, are you taking on CBF?
3:12:28I said, we're taking on a portion of one of their newscasts, which created the false impression about the president's position on CBF.
3:12:37Well, it's good.
3:12:39I guess I saw the CBS executive yesterday.
3:12:43He had a nice kind of a job.
3:12:46And that's it.
3:12:47That's the way to do it.
3:12:48Well, just to give you a couple of examples.
3:12:52People like a little spark in the spark.
3:12:56It was like a little fight.
3:12:58Now, I mean, we've taken it on the check.
3:13:00We've taken it on the line.
3:13:01We've not kicked it dead so close.
3:13:04But to show you the heart of last night at this little cabinet dinner we had with the Vice President and all the rest.
3:13:16And yet, I noticed the weekly news magazines, the television, both times, Newsweek and the television, followed Washington, both times, that we got a very unfriendly reception.
3:13:39Of course we got an unfriendly reception.
3:13:41We had to help a lot, I guess.
3:13:44And so what do you do about it?
3:13:47I wonder.
3:13:48I think our mistake is, I told Holland when I said we should, and he realized it and said, here's the next time you go out, we should have got a few of our guys to talk to.
3:13:58We should have had more.
3:13:59I said at the meeting the other night, another thing is that we couldn't have, now we'll have Williamsburg.
3:14:03I just want to know, and I'm sure we expect more.
3:14:05They're going to be the William and Mary crowds going to come over.
3:14:09They were there last year.
3:14:10You remember?
3:14:11In 68 they were out.
3:14:12Remember when I was there in 68?
3:14:14I pointed it out to the press.
3:14:17We expect pittance.
3:14:18The president always expects pittance.
3:14:20I say the president is not advocating what's happening to some victims, but he doesn't mind it provided it's peaceful.
3:14:26He thinks peaceful picketing, provided there's no...
3:14:30It's only when there are dangers, physically endangers,
3:14:37other people in the crowd, you know, or something like that.
3:14:40Peaceful thinking is perfectly all right.
3:14:42Why don't you just say we expect it?
3:14:44I think both of those addresses are at the end.
3:14:48Excellent.
3:14:49I talked today a little bit about that.
3:14:53Well, what I was going to say is, I love that story of how could you get the divine surgery to be changed.
3:14:59That's part of the public.
3:15:01That's part of the public myth, obviously.
3:15:04I don't think that has really slipped into the consciousness.
3:15:11Of course, I've never been to put much weight in what Newsweek at the time really does in terms of a national impression.
3:15:28I do know this.
3:15:30I watched the news shows that night.
3:15:31Capital had a balance report out of there.
3:15:35rather, as a matter of fact, made the point in his report that there were some demonstrators, but as the president moved to the hotel, there were 300 clouds in the street, showed you out of the car shaking hands and so forth.
3:15:47So I think that impression was done.
3:15:50But I said to Bob, and I mentioned in this meeting the other night, which was an excellent meeting.
3:15:58He is sharp.
3:15:58I think that...
3:16:00Yes, he's great.
3:16:09But I think in terms of Secretary Harden, in terms of the cabinet, in terms of the administration, and I said this the other night, I feel this, the press are going to be adversaries.
3:16:19They've been adversaries in the past.
3:16:23They probably are more so in this case because just their philosophical makeup.
3:16:29But we should approach the press in a positive way.
3:16:33way, and never in a defensive way.
3:16:35The moment an administration appears to be on the defensive, you get the same reaction from the enemies of the press that you get from the enemy on the battlefield or wherever you are.
3:16:46Then the initiative goes to them.
3:16:47But you don't consider this sort of thing a pocket CBS?
3:16:51Absolutely not.
3:16:52No, sir, and I don't consider your remarks the other night defensive.
3:16:55No.
3:16:55I don't think I don't think that it is a negative or I don't think it's being defensive I don't think your remarks came across but I don't think that there's any problem at all for the president of the United States occasionally to be
3:17:25who's upset with things or with someone or with something.
3:17:30And this is a point Conley made the other night, too.
3:17:33Quite frankly, that's what influenced me to say irritated about this thing.
3:17:37Well, his point was, here's a man who probably devotes more of himself to the presidency than anyone has ever devoted to it in terms of his competence and the details of the job.
3:17:56the studious president, and so forth.
3:17:59And he said, here's a man who is very compassionate, very understanding, and so forth.
3:18:03But he also made the point that here's a man also who has a spark in him to become irritated, to become angered, to become ruthless, he said, in a healthy way.
3:18:16And I think by conveying that,
3:18:21from time to time.
3:18:23You can't indicate to yourself all that it is.
3:18:26On the other hand, you can't, you see, everybody who is worried about it, you end up just...
3:18:34What Johnson really did though, he got mad at the press personally.
3:18:38And that's the point we must always make.
3:18:40I don't, as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less what they think personally.
3:18:46I treat them all the same, all equally, all equally.
3:18:49There's never been a mischievous word expressed.
3:18:52Do you realize that?
3:18:53Do they know this?
3:18:56I've made the point.
3:18:57Why this?
3:18:59What Johnson's mistake was, he got mad at him personally and then went to a jail, right?
3:19:06I think what we have to do is do it.
3:19:08I think we're good.
3:19:08All right, see, we're going to head up again on the next office conference.
3:19:15We'll have it with a camera over here and just move it in here and let him ask everything.
3:19:28We're doing it.
3:19:29These interviews, these interviews have had, that's why they came out.
3:19:32They were with me this morning on the Salisbury thing.
3:19:35I realized that.
3:19:36Well, listen.
3:19:37Why don't they?
3:19:38You know why I gave it to them?
3:19:40I mean, the real reason.
3:19:40It's inter, it's pollination of the comments.
3:19:45You know the situation.
3:19:46Si is not the brightest guy in the world, but he's the only person on the foreign policy staff in the Times who shares our views.
3:19:54I've known him for 20 years, and he's a rather decent guy, and he writes pretty well when he thinks.
3:20:00And he's an honest reporter.
3:20:02But he's in a hell of a fight with Johnny Oaks and Scotty Russell about Vietnam and everything, foreign policy.
3:20:10So he saw me a year ago.
3:20:12I've seen him every year.
3:20:13I've seen him every year for at least, you could say I've seen him every year for about a year.
3:20:18Six or seven years I saw him, and I saw the Wallace as a matter of fact.
3:20:22I saw him in London once, and I saw him in Paris once.
3:20:26I saw him when I was vice president.
3:20:27In other words, he's a gentleman.
3:20:29He comes in about once a year.
3:20:31We're old friends, to put it that way.
3:20:34I mean, we've known each other for a number of years now.
3:20:39I figured there was no better way to get our viewpoint across to the Times, which nobody agreed to, except a few people who'd come.
3:20:48And they kneeled the leadership of the Times, and they had Cy Sullivan and now Cy, of course, was strutting around that place for a while.
3:20:57Scottie O'Neill up the wall, Johnny Oaks was right in the National Editorial of Marvel, and so on and so on down the line.
3:21:03As far as these press guys are concerned, yeah,
3:21:06A lot of them enjoyed their views, you know what I mean?
3:21:10I acknowledge that, and that the rules are always the same.
3:21:13They quoted me, I mean, they weren't supposed to, but then one time after the election, you know, they quoted me, I mean, there was no, did Joe Patrick ever quoted me?
3:21:22Sure.
3:21:22And I have no objection to that.
3:21:24I had never sat and examined the transcript afterwards.
3:21:26That's another thing to do.
3:21:29I've never in all my life examined the transcript.
3:21:32I won't do it.
3:21:32I told him not to do it.
3:21:33I will not edit the transcript.
3:21:34I told him you had not read the...
3:21:37They said, well, you mean he didn't read this over?
3:21:39I said, what I'm referring to, he didn't read the transcript of the article.
3:21:44See, their question this morning was, Salzberger wrote the transcript.
3:21:47I said, if you're going to refer to it, refer to it as, as reported in the New York Times by Cy Salzberger in their interview with the president.
3:21:53The point is, he just made potential notes.
3:21:56He did not have a transcript.
3:21:57They said, well, is there anything in the article that you want to shoot down or disagree with and so forth?
3:22:03No.
3:22:04maybe seven months from now, we'll say the president said that this is probably the last war.
3:22:08I said, wait a minute.
3:22:10I said, the president indicated, if you look at the context of the article, that his objective is to achieve a generation of peace.
3:22:19And as he is approaching foreign policy under the Nixon doctrine, the strengthening of our allies, our posture throughout the world, it is his hope and it is his desire to lead to a period in our history where we will have peace.
3:22:31And if you read the transcript, this could well be...
3:22:33This could well be the last one related to that, sir.
3:22:35We may have one.
3:22:35For us.
3:22:36It's about what I was speaking about, too.
3:22:40I was talking about the Latin... War in the world.
3:22:47Oh, what the hell?
3:22:48I can't talk about what's going to happen in Latin America.
3:22:51I can't talk about the United States.
3:22:55That's all right.
3:22:58But you see what it does to the Indian people so many times.
3:23:01And nobody really thinks that anybody at the time was a friend of mine.
3:23:17So nobody's going to claim Si Sulzberger gave us anything for him, right?
3:23:26He isn't like Joe Alsop, for example, that they consider as a friend whose history, which, you know, I've been introduced to.
3:23:34I'll go down the line.
3:23:36Dave Wilson has had it.
3:23:37Dave Wilson's ISO, Dave Wilson, of course, works hard.
3:23:41This follow-up, Roscoe Grumman, and so on down the line.
3:23:46Some of them use it in direct quotes.
3:23:47Some of them do not, but it depends.
3:23:49I have no objection to that.
3:23:54Others have used it.
3:23:57We don't care.
3:23:59I think it makes no difference.
3:24:03You go on.
3:24:05You cannot expect them to speak in background.
3:24:10Don't work.
3:24:11Aren't you agree?
3:24:12I did.
3:24:12There are some, sometimes when you're with a columnist, you're a little backgrounded.
3:24:15But I think you've got to say, well, you can quote what I've said here.
3:24:17These are my views, or some matter I have talked about.
3:24:19You can express this and so on and so on.
3:24:21Well, now they had their press conference last week.
3:24:27We had this this week.
3:24:31Now we'll get to the office press conference next week.
3:24:40Then the one-on-one with ABC.
3:24:41The one-on-one with ABC.
3:24:46That'd be good tomorrow.
3:24:48And the Barbara Walters thing.
3:24:55Yeah.
3:24:59I think if you don't, I think if you don't, they'd like you.
3:25:04A lot of men like that would go.
3:25:07Let me put it this way, because the story is what Dick Moore used to say, is he would always nail the little lies.
3:25:17Now I don't go quite that far.
3:25:22there's no question about this be interesting someday and i when i talk to short i'm going to go call him right now well i'm going to call him for the purpose of
3:25:44Tell them that he was wrong.
3:25:45No.
3:25:46You don't think so?
3:25:46No, no, no, no.
3:25:47No, sir.
3:25:49No, sir.
3:25:49Don't call them out.
3:25:51All I knew of you was just freedom of the cold and restrain.
3:25:55You would get CPS.
3:25:57Don't you?
3:25:58Don't.
3:25:58Don't give him the benefit of the call.
3:26:00If you call him, because you're a sellout or any of those people, and you get an argument, they, CPS, they suck on their story.
3:26:08They didn't check with you to see whether or not the story was accurate before they went.
3:26:13Now, let him call you.
3:26:14He probably won't.
3:26:15All right.
3:26:16But when he calls, I will be talking to myself and say, that is totally false.
3:26:21Anybody that's been with the president of this knows it's totally false.
3:26:25There is nothing expressed.
3:26:28Totally false.
3:26:32But I don't think so, I'm pretty sure.
3:26:35If it went the other way, it would be like you said, I said earlier, call someone and raise hell.
3:26:41That's another way to get at it.
3:26:43But now you're picking them off on the broad spectrum.
3:26:46Hell didn't call you?
3:26:54I can counter-attack that.
3:26:56Yes, sir?
3:26:57Yes, we can.

Nixon, Haldeman & Price on Public Relations and Vietnam War

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on March 10, 1971

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