Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Public Relations and Vietnam War

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He said, he called me, and I wasn't in my office when he called.

I returned it just a couple minutes later.

He said, I can call the president.

He said earlier he was tied up.

He said, tell him not to call me back.

All I can really do is tell him not to.

I thought the Salisbury article came out very well, primarily because it gave you, you understand the person better.

It revealed him as a man and made you sympathetic to his viewpoint.

So that was his reaction to it.

Then he said, we've had a meeting on this NSC thing, and there's no need to have a meeting this afternoon.

And so he had called Henry apparently earlier.

Oh yeah, Henry didn't want the meeting anymore.

Henry had only agreed to put the meeting back on as a result of Rogers wanting it yesterday.

Apparently Rogers now decided he didn't want it.

Did Henry go to the meeting?

That's pretty good.

He looks like that part of him or something.

He did.

I just remembered, just as you were leaving last night, Henry had sent another bitch back to town.

That's the NFC group.

That's not good.

No, I'm sorry, it's April 27th.

Tito, Tito is the name.

Tito is the name.

Uh, the, uh... Why, Tito, Tito is the name.

Why, Tito, Tito is the name.

Uh, you know, I've cut substantially because I don't have the material to show that it's, uh, it's actually, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a,

Mainly about the big war.

Let me tell you how I feel about the class, how they are.

David is in the top 10% of the class.

He gets 17 out of 250, which is quite an accomplishment.

And they already have a commission for a year and they need a commission, you know, without going through that process, which is, of course, very hard on him.

He will, of course, not take it.

I hope not.

Well, he's quite an animal.

And he's got a family tradition.

But what I wanted to get across, basically we have to understand that these kids, like, they all hate the Navy.

You know, let's begin with that, most of them.

They hate the service, and they hate it for the same reasons that we all despise the service when we work in it.

I mean, it's a, these are the right kids, you know, from school, from college graduates and the rest, but all of them, they made it to college and they made it to the service.

and they see the war winding down, so they don't have the fear, they don't hate it for the reason that some feared, well, I'm going to Vietnam and get my tail shot off, this and that so much.

These guys all know, as far as the Navy's concerned, the war's over in Vietnam.

The likelihood of any of them being captured in Vietnam is very, very remote.

As you know, as you probably know, all naval activities now are planned over the south of Vietnam.

so what was involved here is very frankly you're just taking three years out of their lives and these guys have got to come around you know the things you used to do in the service and the radio that i did remember when i was a young lawyer sure could be great

These things we all have to do to put it back to this.

And even though, I mean, pretty far apart from the contribution to the Great War, you know, but the three years was probably dander than from all those things.

I mean, any kind of time away, some kind of whatever.

Anyway, what I'm really getting at is something else here.

What I want to get across to them really is a sense of, which I think you've got here, the sense of what here we understand.

This is hard.

I mean, I mean, it's hard for you to think you've given up three years.

You've faced three years of boredom.

Boredom is a good word here, I think.

That's what it will be for most of them.

I'm sure they'll think about their lost years.

And also, we must understand that this is something that we're doing, needs to be done.

These are not lost years.

Now, I had taken out, what I had really taken out of me, is that sometimes he gets a little bit

How about a little of that?

But leading into, why you, why the piece was briefed, Justice?

Let me see if I can get to the point.

The point that I make is that instead of here at this stage, probably if we see it in perspective, it would make things worthwhile.

What do you feel, right, if you read it?

I think this is worth saying.

It's kind of negative.

It would just give a few remarks.

That would be the point, right?

But you see what I'm talking about.

I can't talk to you.

Firstly, really what it turns on is who you're addressing, whether you're addressing the graduating class in Newport, the younger generation, or the country, which is torn by laws and so forth.

It's more graduating classes, period.

That's what I'm trying to address.

Well, that does put a different twist on it, doesn't it?

Yeah.

It isn't addressing me.

That's why I took out the section on the graduating classes, the generation ahead, and so forth and so on.

Young people kind of affect people that have to go to agonist services.

All right.

That's a...

I think that point is one that is well worth thinking about.

You know, what it means is that everybody says the draft is horrible.

It's terrible that we have to maintain all these forces.

Awful that we have to maintain them.

We have to demand more leadership.

It's important.

We can't say that about you.

You know, you say it to very sophisticated people.

People who do not understand it will never survive.

In terms of what the years mean to them personally, of course, the graduating class at Newport is different from the average kid who's going into the draftee in the Army.

There's about two of these 10 grades on the graduating class at Newport.

All he did is postpone.

He postponed, but he's got three years.

The guy in the draft, he's only got two.

And it's the same as the other.

You've got an uncle out in the seats, too, who enlists to avoid the draft.

A trigger, but they do it for two years.

And he doesn't really do the same things.

He's done even that twice.

And this is about the volunteer army.

He stated, well, we don't have a volunteer army.

70% are enlisted.

That's just the basic question here.

They wouldn't be enlisted.

It would be 20% if they didn't have the draft, basically.

The people who are graduating in Newport will get a lot more out of the service, personally, than the average draft team.

Oh, I get your point.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'll argue that point.

Maybe with a demand.

Yeah, I mean, it's capability.

I'll argue those guys need less of it.

Yeah, you've got to stop and think of the ratings, right?

You know, I know the kind of guys that were in my office, and let's face it, they were false with the national educations.

You know, today they have a little bit more.

Maybe they got a couple years of high school.

We didn't know anything.

And frankly, when they leave, they aren't going to be doing anything very important anyway.

These guys are people that really, that set their sights much higher.

I put it this way to the enlisted guy.

I think the service is much less difficult for the enlisted man, and to what the enlisted man, as we think of it in the Navy, than it is for the officer.

For the officer, it's a terribly degrading, difficult thing.

I mean, you know, men who have the potential, lawyers and doctors and poets and writers and so forth, you know, go and take that crap.

of these, you know.

I mean, he goes to the fancy guy that was gonna go out and be a truck driver, and he says he likes those things that come out of you.

Well, maybe he's a truck driver, or maybe he's an employer, or maybe he's a service station operator.

He's one of the 70 million that would be in the workforce.

But he isn't the follow-up, usually, that has all that much ambition.

or all that much capability.

I don't think it's as hard on him, in other words.

He loses a lot, particularly on the money side.

He hurts that money, but no, he gets some travel.

It's the kind of guy that might never get out of his state.

I'll put it this way.

I don't think the service, to be perfectly frank with you, does much good for a man of officer capability.

I regret it.

I regret it because it's just another stretch.

I think it could, frankly, for some of the enlisted men, take some of those people who are enlisted men and leave them out.

It's a good thing.

I mean, it's just obliged to keep that out.

It's good for them, but I've seen a lot of the whites, the poor whites, the others, and so forth, and getting them the sense of discipline, responsibility, and all that sort of thing, to come out standing a little bit more in rank, rather than closing off.

Let's get away from that.

The main point is whether you feel it or not.

Let me do this.

I'll get it back, and you can have it re-run in the society with my directions in it.

And both of you take a look at it to see if you think it feels right.

Feels right, really.

Because you can't, we're always talking to the country, right?

You know, but we want to, we're not.

The country's listening.

I'm not too concerned about the class.

We're the class, right?

Let's get a few remarks.

First, I guess most of what you originally had in mind for this was in the Sulzberger interview, I think, today.

Yeah.

Some of it.

These are just my general views.

He had some of them in pretext to lose.

I thought they came up very well, I'd say.

Yeah, but don't consider the Sulzberger interview doesn't, because nobody goes to the Sulzberger interview and how a lot of people hear some of what the President says.

Right.

Well, maybe at least, I don't know how well Solberg reported on it, but to the extent that he got anything that was accurate, I think he's a very good reporter on the veterans.

A great deal of wishing.

I probably gave the same thing I gave to you over the phone I called you, but we've got to throw that over to your great-grandfather.

I haven't seen any cuts on it yet.

They're not going to leave us all to be exposed to it.

What's that?

We're not going to read this home version of the review.

It would be good if we let you hear it.

You can go on the absolute assumption that there's a lot of software here.

Oh, yes.

Well, it isn't even available.

Where do they have it?

99.99.

We all sit here and think that people are using that.

No.

No, that's just ridiculous.

I'm not.

Let me get into this problem.

We're not talking software.

That audience is an audience of about 150,000.

So we're not talking about that.

Forget that.

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about the country always.

So that's why.

Don't worry about that.

If there's anything good in the soldiers or anything good that I haven't got here, give me.

Well, a lot of it is in here.

I don't know what you're thinking now.

All right.

Well, you see what you, uh, said.

Why don't you take another look and see if it has a nice feel for it and we'll figure it out.

Because the point needs to be made twice.

If you're getting as good of a soldier as they're going to be, let's make it again.

They don't, they don't get it the first time.

Nobody in New England says they don't get it until four times.

I doubt they can get it now.

Were you thinking then, you were talking about shortening it, cutting it back down, uh,

I didn't cut it short.

I cut it about 25%.

So it's 15 minutes, which is long.

Anybody who wants 15 minutes.

The main point is, though, I want you to read it through the field again, you know, even in the text, and see if you...

I don't want to...

It has a nice spiritual, the energetic voice that I believe.

Billy Graham, he's the one who tells me to quote the Bible.

I've read the Bible too once.

I don't know what to think.

But everybody else has quoted the Bible, so I might as well.

Is that out of the Bible?

Are you sure?

Or is that another cross?

Work prices?

That's Isaiah, yes.

You know, if you use the word prophet, though, it could be one of all these people, so I...

I could say Isaiah.

No, no, no.

No, I think the prophet's much better.

I don't confuse people.

They'll go searching around.

It's a nice thought.

You'd like to take a whack?

And then what would you like to do in terms of when you'd want to work on it?

Oh, I think you ought to get this, frankly, I have heard it was on Cyclone Williams for tomorrow, so I would say they'd like to see this around 3 o'clock today.

But actually, you have much to do.

You just have to go out and give it a seat and kind of think.

the kind of changes that I think is more important.

technical points like ours, rather than the war was grinding down and never said, our involvement in Southeast Asia is coming to an end.

We have to be more precise.

And then, rather than out of the blood, the bitterness in the chest, we absolutely ought to be sick, but I would put a sacrifice out of the blood, you see, out of the sacrifice and so forth.

And then where we have these, just give me some thoughts.

When war came, when war struck upon us, when it came, we fought.

I don't like the feel of it.

Young Americans met the challenge.

Just all of these seem like small changes, but they get more than I want.

And then I take out the part that the sacrifices have been great.

I know that those who question the wisdom of the Adham law and consider these sacrifices unbearable.

I don't want to go into all that.

I contended it so often.

But we do it in an oblique way anyway here.

And then I take all that out down to the bottom of the next page.

In other words, I go from there to page four where I say, when force is rewarded.

The last two sentences, you got that?

In other words, strike, strike and sacrifice, as I've been saying, strike there, and you strike all the way down to plan for some reward.

It's in the last paragraph, the middle of the last paragraph, the cost of peace and the only alternative to war is fear.

That picture is nice, where it was previously.

I take out, for example, I understand some of the sentiments behind it, and I am sympathetic.

I do not have sympathetic needs.

I do understand, but I'm not sympathetic.

I think that's a good decision.

It's a matter of .

I can understand anybody, but when you say you sympathize, that indicates agreement.

And I have all agreement.

I understand and I agree.

And I add here, do not propose to appeal.

I don't want to get the idea that we're giving up on the idea that we're the largest fleet or the biggest army with the greatest air power and the most missiles.

That would certainly hold the flap of Jackson and a lot of other pieces.

But what I do is simply add a sentence.

We do not seek power as an end in itself.

We only seek power adequate to our cause.

And rather than say, rather we have to make peace than we have to build peace,

And the security question is a little bit more of a problem.

So, anyway, we don't want to spend too much time on the other side.

Right?

But if we think about it, it would be quite interesting.

And mainly because it's about 70 days.

Very few people will pick up on it saying that it's a forgiving day.

Talk about judges, prison reform, and all that sort of thing.

It'll be picked up in red.

This will be picked up more than that, in my opinion.

Because it's about 70 people are ready.

Mainly it's everybody.

He didn't say almost anything about the war in the church.

Rogers, you know, goes on and pops off about everything else in the media.

He says one little line he had taken about Vietnam, so that's a headline.

You might want to go for live TV in the afternoon.

On this?

That's short.

Well, I mean, I'll dare to hold the other one down if you go to the live TV.

We feel, why don't you do this so you've got to think about it, put it all together, and look at it as a whole of fields.

It might be a nice audience.

It might be a beautiful setting.

And could have said, or been there, in fact, all day there.

And frankly, speaking up for the armed services about time, somebody did.

These poor men, I mean, they just keep knocking on the door all the time.

What are you trying to do?

Are you keeping busy?

Yes, we're pretty good up here.

We've got a whole room.

You still looking for more help, are you?

Still at it, yes.

I'm trying to get the vision cyclos up, getting my head above water enough to find help to get my head above water out.

But they're all doing a fine job.

We just keep... And we do have things in train of trying to get the foreign policy over from state too.

Good.

That's very important.

I don't mean to get all over their business of letters to foreign states or the traditionalists that your office writes to us.

I mean, when I say that you people take the time to write to us, you need to get the style that there's nobody in Henry's office who can write illiterate.

I mean, frankly, a, what shall we say, an elegant letter, then it has to be, I mean, there has to be, letters of hesitancy in the state have to be in a high style.

So there are guys in the state that can do it, but you've got to find one who's good at it, see, all over here.

You won't like it, but it's all right.

It's important to write a good letter.

Nobody will believe that.

They always send the damned things over here.

Say, oh, the mail's horrible.

It's very important.

You tell all these young guys that.

You tell them to write a letter and say, oh, God, this is the right letter.

Don't you agree?

Sometimes, yes.

Sometimes you can say that.

We do run into problems on this, is that we separate the person who caused it, the quality of the letter is separated from the substantive input.

So the person trying to make it an elegant letter doesn't really, doesn't really, doesn't really, that's just what I'm saying.

I understand, Eric.

That's why you need your state guide on that.

The thing with most of these letters is there isn't anything to say.

If not, there is something to say.

I'm trying to put a lot of words around that.

You guys are awesome at that.

See you.

Thank you.

You know, it's absolutely fascinating.

You just got to drive it home every hour, on the hour, and it never gets through.

They think because you gave some of that stuff to Salzberger, because he printed it in his paper this morning, that now it's been said, so now we've got to go on with something.

I think Cook was actually sitting there disappointed that you had scooped his stuff, because he had written the same stuff you had told him to write, but you had also given him apparently similar stuff.

He had that ten times, actually.

And God, man, these people, he thought I was taking leave of my senses when I said nobody reads the New York Times.

But the point is, who the hell does?

Hardly anybody in New York reads the New York Times, and nobody anywhere else reads it.

That's right.

But boy, you can't get that through.

They say, you know, by God, Salzburg, Loretta, and the New York Times, well, we've said that one, now we've got to say something else.

Well, they're all this way around here, yeah.

In fact, I hope, of course, your press will do the same thing.

They'll react the same way.

If you go up there, if you go up there and say the same thing up there, they'll say, oh, that's what he said.

Sure.

So you do it again.

It's hard, though.

It really is to get that.

It's just a thing that people can't get into their minds.

When they read it, they figure everybody's read it.

I think Ziegler's beginning to understand it.

Yeah, right.

But you don't, it isn't just that.

No, he doesn't really.

Ziegler's always looking for what's new.

Hot news, fine, too.

But how about Mr. Man?

He's working well as the TV guys did.

No, I mean, well, when I say Mr. Man, anybody who's working with hot news always asks what's new.

And they miss the nice stories.

They miss the things that really...

It may have a little touch.

Of course, these will get carried on the wires.

Now, the software will be able to pick up some of them.

Now, they won't get the coverage in this case.

The scope is not really time to understand because they're all subservient.

Well, so Henry and the Rogers are now speaking to each other and not speaking to each other.

I guess there ain't any damn difference in that, is there?

I don't know.

Well, I got one of them this morning.

He read the act on pleasure.

He says that pleasure denies all of the land.

I sure must have made it up.

I have never expressed I ever met the son of a bitch, Fletcher, except to shake his hand on NASA dinner.

And the second thing, I have never spoken about ABM to any scientist ever, ever.

That's, as he said, if I hadn't thought about it.

Now that is a goddamn lie.

You've got to get on it.

Sigler's got to, Sigler's got to deny that.

Now that's one time he's got to come up with one.

We'll leave it.

I assume so they talked about that this morning.

The, uh, the incredible thing there is understandable it was a butcher.

obviously did say something.

And he was at a luncheon with some other people.

And Shore was at the luncheon also, and he didn't know Shore was in his management.

He's Pastor Shore who does that, though.

He used to do that to poor Finch all the time.

Did he?

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Because he covered H-E-W at the time.

You know, by working around, you finally get Bob to say something that he didn't mean at all, and then he'd run out and use it.

I think I was gonna say something interesting to Bob, but...

I wonder if you have thought about it, because it was raised by the leaders meeting, and to show you how just a tiny little incident like that, because I think that was treated as a point.

A huge story.

All those leaders thought that we had a hell of a bad reception in Des Moines.

I see why.

It was not only there in the Washington Post, in the 10-3, but it also had both of those max teams, you know, pick and serve and so on.

But what happened here, though, is a... And also, throughout the story around the White House, 80s were probably the most concerned.

About it, about that, I just can't believe that anybody out of state, I wasn't worried.

I saw that in the back, that, you know, it was the last minute, I thought it was two little boxes, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute, I thought it was the last minute,

Certainly never say so.

They can play that off the surface or anything.

We go right in there.

We're not going into that airport.

No, we're going to land at Williamsburg, but you have to drive from the helipad at the end.

walk in over to the common center, which is a very short effort.

It's all in the ground, right?

Yeah.

In the restoration.

How does this park look around?

Is that what you're telling me to do?

Probably get some very tight set.

I'm waiting for you.

Is that done?

I have that.

We have had it.

And they now make it up more because it is the time of Laos and it's the time of the, they're all trying to talk about politics.

But the point is, good God, we've had demonstrators.

There's been a place where we haven't had them.

Can you remember?

I can't remember any.

I have a son.

They belong to Turkey.

No, not in one place in Texas, but in the others.

I got every place else.

We had it in Albuquerque.

We had it in Utah.

We had it in Nevada.

We had it in, you know, every place in California.

Good God Almighty, they wouldn't put it in North Dakota.

I mean, we've had demonstrators in every place we've been.

It's a thing of our time.

I mean, there's just demonstrators for everything that happens.

And look, Jesus Johnson had so many of them go out in the place that we're going and couldn't talk.

Yeah.

I wonder if in this case, frankly, it was Ziegler at all, if we did do any, and Grutter at all, did any kind of job for us.

Well, like I said, I'm trying to give up.

on that point, except I do think that Jack Miller, Hartman, Hartman was around last night showing all the members of the cabinet the coverage of the Des Moines Register.

He said six pages of the next interception in Des Moines, and so forth.

He never said that he was coming here to bail against the people.

What have we done on that point?

And we tried, did Miller make a talk?

Did Miller get the thing, you know, the indignation thing of the unfair misrepresentation of the attitude of the people of Iowa.

And I don't know what the magazines loved the chance to play the press.

Some of them put it in perspective, some of them didn't.

We made a mistake.

We've got to face that.

Not a lot of people are probably not cranking up their own.

We won't do that again.

We won't have an opportunity.

There isn't any crime to crank up there, except we've got to make sure that the people that are there got it.

Why don't we do a source for crap, for real crap?

No, we don't want to bother with that.

Newport, we've got a problem there.

No, no, it's Quonset military base.

No problem at all.

I'd like to add to that.

I'd say we've got a enthusiastic reception.

Because they were all servicemen.

Dependent.

That's right.

They're all servicemen.

They're supposed to be handy because they're in service.

Let's look at this in another way, though.

Maybe we're reacting too much to that.

Now, maybe we're not.

Isn't this, though, having to do with Connelly's point about the man?

People like to think that the man is a well-liked thing.

We know very well there's some, but not a hell of a lot.

You know what I mean?

You're talking about the difference between 60 and 50, right?

So what's the health?

That's what it is.

— 2 min 17 s with no transcribed speech —

But I thought Newsweek reached quite a bit when they said that I was peepish with the press.

And it's better they ought to get some net letters on that to me and just say, I saw it.

Because if you know, if anything, if you know we talked about a later guy, it wasn't him.

I should have hit him harder.

I wasn't too much at all.

Did Ron run into that?

That's the first I've seen him go.

Overdorfer set that line.

You could tell it was coming somewhere because Overdorfer ran it.

He did change the point last week, but...

He had sort of that, that you were angry, and he gave anger or petulance with the press or something, and that you had talked directly over their heads to the MTV camera as if you were trying to get passed in directly to the people.

I just have to say, if you were to, well, we don't worry about such things.

But at least I keep on it.

It's fascinating to watch the over-doors will come.

You can watch the beat dogs push the buttons when it comes out of the thing.

And you can see that.

Well, it's an interesting thing.

The news magazines this week are a week late on the mail.

They're all following last week's television.

They missed the turn.

They're all a week late.

Right.

And this week, the police are going the other way and making it look like they're out of town.

This week, actually, it could be bad again, but that's the way it is.

Great.

My only answer is I think they should do more and more on television.

So I mean, I think I should read it.

You think our next one should be the film thing in New York?

I think we should try it.

Or should we just do it?

Yeah, we should try it.

Because you don't want to keep going on.

And we've got the one-on-one coming up, you know, right after this.

I'm sure we'll get you back on the TV.

20 seconds.

CBS is delighted with the chance of having one of theirs.

I'd like to have you.

Also, Barbara Wallace has a better thing set up than that one.

Today's show will be on.

And we'll do it tomorrow afternoon.

But she and what we're going to do is let NBC also use that from Saturday noon on, because the other stories will go on Saturday noon.

So they can scoop themselves if they want to, which they will probably do by running something on their evening news in an interview for the Today show, which will be

She wants to go to half an hour.

I will not do it unless she's going to use the phone.

That's clearly understood.

I will not do it unless she's going to use the phone.

That's understood.

And we said, you know, we talked about whether to go live.

I think I'd rather just do it live.

I won't trust them on coming.

I won't trust them.

They won't come.

It's understood.

They'll shoot to full length.

They will.

If they do this, you know, they've had it.

I only do exactly what they're going to use.

That's understood.

It will be done as a live thing, no editing.

I think she should do, we should ask her to say something.

At the President's request, this is an unedited interview, tape recorded with the President.

How's this going to work and are we going to do what we were told to do?

The idea would be to do Barbara Walters at about 445 and then do the ladies of the press right after.

Well, that's the next question.

The recommendation is the yellow oval one.

Unless you don't want television up there.

No problem.

You don't mind having it set up up there.

That would, it gives us a nice, you know, it's a good place to do it.

If not, uh, the red room or the, you know, one of the apartment stands there.

Okay.

But they are nearly the same.

Oh, the yellow, I don't know, the yellow room, I don't think it's a very good room.

Well, I'm sorry.

She knows damn well now.

I just want to be sure.

Yes, sir.

On this, she knows first that we went first, and that second part, it is not on substance.

It's a substantive question.

Do you see what I mean?

I'm not going to play that game with Henry and others, but not with me.

What are you going to ask about him?

This is all personal.

personal stuff on you.

It may not be a conversational kind of thing.

You can read it very easily.

It's not a quiz type thing.

You shouldn't take it that way.

You'll have to talk with it for a few minutes before you start taping so that you have

guidance on what you want to say, because she's all excited about this.

She's canceled her vacation in order to do a morning show.

It's a very big thing for her.

It's a morning show for the morning show.

Same thing.

You know, you'll get some different questions, because they won't see you for a long time.

and give them the same thing and go on and just, whatever they get, they'll run this as their written stuff and it'll run on the radio.

Barbara Walters will run it as an exclusive.

What time will it air?

Starting at noon on Saturday.

What time do we do theirs?

Do theirs at 1 a.m. when you finish with Barbara Walters.

About 5.30.

Now she, we had proposed this to her as a 10-minute

I'm just doing a brief thing, and she said that.

She said she'd like to go to a house, and we said that, and that it must be clearly understood that everything that's taken away from you is going to be ours now.

No.

Not at all.

It's a substance.

It's totally different, and this is life.

And this is on a totally different subject.

You're not in any way scooping it.

Not at all.

That's set, incidentally, for 930, but I want this to be about women.

Do you understand?

That's right.

It's clearly about sexism, sexism, sexism.

I drove women's cars, drove women in politics, you know, purely personal, kind of.

And that's understood.

There's no question at all on that.

I told you I did that long interview that they were going to use in this.

The Washington Post?

Yeah.

I got a letter from Matt Storm.

He says, I think I should inform you that having completed the first draft of my piece for the Washington Post, it apparently became evident to them that you were not going to turn out to be quite the bad guy they were interested in.

Whether that makes me a poor reporter, I don't know.

In any event, I'm confident in selling it elsewhere.

I'll let you know if I do.

They rejected the story.

Because it was favorable.

I'm going to use this letter.

What is it?

It's basically a negative.

Not completely, but they obviously, you know, it's a favorable story on me and the president.

It's not anything that was of any interest to them, so they turned it down.

So I'm going to have to get to that.

Oh, the guy that we agreed with, the guy that we agreed we had the most trouble with on the firm, I'm getting really cynical about the president, Ray.

I mean, he just, he does it so that you can't, you know, you just have to agree with him.

He had a lot of realistic initiatives and really a chance to win some of these people.

I said, Ray, not a chance, not a chance.

Don't you agree?

Yeah.

Ray just honestly believes, you know, in me.

He was an honest press guy, you know, himself.

And he sat there when a guy that he didn't agree with came through for something good, he probably wrote a good article.

Other people go at it the same way.

There are probably four or five in the world who did that stuff.

Well, there are quite a few, but...

I mean, not many editorial credits.

There are actually about 10%, but Ray was just, I mean, that's one of the reasons why, in this term, he's not really the best we can have, because he is so trusting of the press.

Thanks as well.

It's a game, you just gotta always figure out how do you get around, how do you get around, how do you meet in another way.

I guess in Hope Springs Eternal, he's got to, you know, come around the sun, just like Gwynne and Keough.

Why didn't Rex do that?

He is not soft.

Really close to the sun.

I would say,

What do you think?

Sure.

I think those banks hurt him.

What do you think?

Well, they have some effect sometimes.

It's obvious.

Because some of the things you get, you get them again.

Look, I found yesterday, I wanted to tell you this, huh?

That I checked with these guys at the cabin, and I was flying them around, but I never heard from this man, David, and I just don't know what we heard.

He was using it this weekend, for example.

I'm not going to be there.

It's an ideal time for somebody to go out and get those two tabs and rearrange for everybody to use it.

Well, I have not been calling them when you don't use it, although...

They have requests.

Well, they, they, well, screw the Volpe thing.

I mean, that's just Volpe came in and said, as I, as I've had my name, as I've been in, but they've never let me use it again.

And the person wants 24 people or something.

They want 24 people, and he wants to go on a weekend, and the weekends he picks are the, you know, 4th of July or something, when you're going to be there.

Well.

Now, first, I'll just say this.

One thing I do want to do, yeah, you know what I'm saying?

I want you to pick a time, the next time we know that we're going to be out of town, call the ATMs and say they can have the whole place, you know.

Just let them have it.

That is the right thing to be trying to do this weekend, isn't it?

No, they can't do it this weekend because he's doing it right after he told me.

if you would like to go and take the grandchildren for us.

And this weekend, I'm worried that Dan could have time to have somebody go up there, not a member of the staff.

I don't think any staff members are needed at the moment, do they?

To go, I mean, they're all feeling pretty good.

But let the out-of-cabin people that haven't been there, I mean, why don't you get stupid Opie up there now?

I mean, I don't know.

Okay, well, you make the calls.

I made them the one time you mentioned it.

I went to everyone, Dick Helms and even the major agencies.

And they all, of course, appreciate it.

But I understand.

You've got a perfect time for this week as it's probably not going to be there in two weeks' time.

and say, would you like to?

I had two go.

They did.

I mean, you let them go, and you could take a double up and say, they've got these two cabins.

Of course, what we had, and his idea was so crazy that he said, look, they're only going for 24, and I said, John, I think so.

I said, okay.

He wants to take apparently his whole goddamn staff up there or something.

Well, see, a number of them have done that.

And that place gets used like it's never been used in history.

And don't we can't be like we're not, you know, not what I believe, why I can't go beyond that.

What I meant is I don't want a personal championship.

Well, there's a limit because of the staff.

Well, the staff is a good thing.

They can pick their team up and have a conversation.

They'll set an archive up there and get both of you out of the way.

Commerce had a picnic.

Well, it's not.

When you check, do you have a file as to who issues it?

The aides do have a file.

Why don't you get a file as to who issues it as a couple?

Yes, sir.

See, Hagin's been there, but he's never been there.

He's been there with the people, but he has never been there by himself.

Just as a family, it just might be that, say, for example, Mitchell White likes to go, this is Mitchell White, he's all fine and good.

All right.

Yeah, I'll keep that just the way I'm keeping invitations.

I've been keeping social invitations.

Say you had a colleague.

Who's doing this?

Hughes?

Hughes.

Fine.

That's good.

I've got to let him continue.

Tell him to run the list.

Well, but I can keep the record of the cabinet.

I said we'd call it on the cabinet.

Yeah.

That I'd like to get them.

I don't want them crying babies.

You know, opiate is one.

Just remember Rumsfeld's theory on opiate.

If you had opiate every weekend at Camp David, he'd bitch because you didn't let him stay a little Monday.

If you had it until Monday, he'd say, well, why didn't you climb down in your helicopter so you could get to work on time?

Is that right?

There's just no way.

There's a sponge there that just soaks up everything you put on the plate.

On anything.

On invitations, bringing people along, strapping.

I know it blames about, you know, not being invited to anything you're not invited to.

Is that right?

He is unbelievable.

And you should not, you just got to have a deaf ear on that.

Don't let yourself be worried about that kind of guy.

Don't bother him.

Well, no, if you haven't been there once, get him up there once.

I can't say he's never been there.

They say that he can go this weekend.

If he wants, he says, well, I'm sorry, I can't go this weekend.

She says, all right, that's all right.

We're sorry, but the president was using another weekend.

See, the thing here, if you push it too much, is that then they get in the way of your use of it.

I have a whole purpose again, David.

As soon as you ever get to the vote, it's like some things, for example, I might decide not to go to Florida, which I have done.

That's nice.

And then somebody's up there and I'm choked up.

That's exactly why I can't have that.

That's right.

And that's the reason they hold it open until the rush.

But this weekend is free up there.

You are going to see it.

So this weekend's a perfect week.

This weekend, I really offer to get a couple of them up there.

Now, of course, they're all going to the gridiron.

But the plan is to go out and spend one night.

I go to spend one night.

They go out Friday and spend the night and come back on Saturday night.

The president likes that.

We recommend it.

John Collins is really good.

I'm just kidding.

He's really good.

A lot of rest.

Well, they're the things they're supposed to do.

We could tell you.

He likes to read the last letter when I came back.

All right.

So I ask him, though, I want him to offer me, I don't know, when is there a time for it?

I'm sure we're going to be talking about it.

Well, there aren't a hell of a lot.

There isn't much.

They're during the week, and we tell them to use it during the week.

And they do.

That's when they have these departmental conferences.

Why don't you call back and say that the president called it, and we haven't, but the really best time would be to go out and hear about it.

Isn't there a time?

You ought to wait until springtime.

Because I know spring, I mean in April, when is our next board meeting?

First, second, third, fourth, fifth, and last summer's shooting point.

You've been known to change your mind.

Yeah, that depends on the weather.

That'd be a pretty good time.

I'd like to offer him that.

I'll be back in a minute to see what happens.

All right, sir.

It was a chap, that son of a bitch, every chance he gave me.

Obviously, he was at dinner last night, so he probably didn't change his mind.

But at the time, he did.

That's the name of the list we're doing.

You know, that black sensitivity or any... Oh, yeah, he debased himself into doing something like that.

Yeah, well, the governor's dinner was terrible, man.

This guy called six times, and he called me.

Cheap two-bit Massachusetts politician.

That's what it is.

That's how he got to be governor.

Sure, he wasn't qualified, but he got to be governor because he kept pushing.

Well, we ought to get him up there and get him out.

There's a good-earned enemy out there.

Shut up.

I won't take it this long.

They'll let me go up Sunday morning, I believe.

Henry, Kessler wants to see you at 10 o'clock.

It's a current siege.

All right.

Give him the sign and hold it for me.

It's a little bit slow.

Oh, call him on it.

Spell the word in the guy's face this day.

I shall not call him.

I must pronounce the law of death.

I will not call him.

Now, as I was starting all day, I wanted to read that, and he says, you know, he says, if I could, if I could only have that, if I could have our hope with his eye, with the sand, with joyousness with the sand, with his eye, just could I do that?

I think it would be helpful.

All right.

He just has no, he's no class.

And I was just saying to Alex, when you add it all up, that guy is like an Massachusetts politician.

That's obviously the only way you've got to be governor, is by pushing because he sure doesn't have the qualifications.

That's how he succeeded in business, too.

It was something he and those guys planned.

And this ability is worthless.

It's driving to get you somewhere.

He's got a tremendous tribe.

Well, the dinner went very well.

It was a great experience.

John said that's a very good thing to do.

Very low-key...

But you would enjoy that, wouldn't you?

I really almost think of Bokey, the thing to do is to get him in for a half hour and then throw his ass out.

But sometimes, put it down, I don't know when you're going to do it.

But not now.

I mean, it's unbelievable.

You know, such a poor manners.

That's such a gross manners for him to raise such a question about, I'd like to see nobody else do that.

I think you're right.

Of course, on the other hand, you send a piece of writing, yeah, it's getting her something to do, you know, it's important what you're doing, but you see the difficulty is, and I know it, well,

I wonder if we should do much of it.

I think it's better just to get him in and talk to him.

What do you think, 5 o'clock or is it better?

I think this thing you're doing, this round with having got them all in group, and then 5 o'clock, it is worthwhile talking to him.

I had a chance to talk to John, and I need to see John now.

He's got some strong views on the textiles thing.

Very different from George Holtz's.

I can't be pushed too strong in that direction.

And so I got everyone because I wouldn't be killed otherwise.

We can't allow it to obsess us.

I think actually we're conducting, I think we're conducting ourselves god damn well.

I think you know what I mean.

Since the election, I mean, the press conference, the conversation.

Well, in this case, it has not done as much as what you're after.

There has to be a continuing effect.

There has to be a building.

Sure.

I think that though the idea of erosion and people don't like it,

That is due to the two things.

The one thing I was concerned of as I read the news center was the almost unanimous opinion of the news, of the financial editors, and the confidence factor.

Now, some way or other, I don't know if I am a crackhead.

I'm part of this Burge.

Burge is the bastard here.

Burge is getting that word out too much.

And there's got to be some kind of confidence.

The damn stock market keeps banging up.

I saw it sunk a little again yesterday.

I had another huge day.

I saw it.

It went through 900 yesterday during the day.

But it didn't.

If it ends over 900, I want to call my advisor if it can close over 900.

It might do that.

It'll probably go off today.

Today is Thursday.

Wednesday.

What is your feeling as to whether, in my mind, my feeling is that as we look at this situation, that it's our coming out after the conversation, basically 60, this is what we were, I think Gallup said it was 60 as well.

I think actually we were probably, I think our figure was pretty close, don't you think so?

Because we had 18-year-olds in it, and also we put it in there.

All right.

Coming out at basically 60.

And drop down.

I guess it's a, I think it's basically like 50, basically 50, uh, 48, 49, 50, 51, and then we fall apart.

But what we have in May, I think it's a, I think that the, the drop the year before was due primarily to the economy.

There's no question about that.

The economy was just sliding like hell, if you recall.

And the war wasn't all that bad.

The Laotian thing began to creak up, but it didn't get bad until...

It was going up until March.

Huh?

What?

Last year.

No, last year, this time.

We were going down at this time, and then we started back up.

Not until... Not until we hit Cambodia.

After Cambodia.

Not until we hit Cambodia.

Not until then, sir.

Remember, we went down through the tree, 55, around that bank.

Now, what did we start with?

A water threshold.

The question is how much have we really wasted in terms of the opportunity?

The question I raise on all of this is whether or not a settle sets in on a precedent, whether or not people just, in other words, you just cross your threshold and people either have confidence or they don't.

You know, like the Kennedy people felt that after he'd been in his third year that he might not make it the next time, even though he was still...

I think that the drop the year before was due primarily to the economy.

The economy was just sliding like hell, if you recall.

And the war wasn't all that bad.

The Laotian thing began to creak up, but it didn't get bad until March.

Why?

Last year.

No, last year, this time.

We were going down at this time, but then we started back up.

Not until after the end of the election.

After the end of the election.

Not until after the end of the election.

Not until then.

Okay.

Remember, we went down to 55, around that bank.

Now, why don't we start with a lower threshold?

The question is, how much have we really wasted in terms of the opportunity?

The question I raise on all actions, whether or not...

A settle sets in on a precedent, whether or not people just, in other words, you just cross your threshold and they, people either have confidence or they don't.

You know, like the Kennedy people felt that after he'd been in his third year that he might not make it the next time.

And they had, even though he was still 55, 57 in the polls back in the summer of 19, just before he went to Dallas.

Senator Kincaid gets caught.

Well, this is pretty good.

It was not bad, unless it's high as it had been.

But nevertheless, for him it was a terrible job because he had been so many times.

Right.

And therefore, it has an effect on people.

The question is, really, they have this question, and it really relates to my use of time.

whether it was really possible.

I know that they're supposed to be saying, well, we've got to try it anyway, with all this Mickey Mouse stuff, you know, and the man and all that sort of thing.

But I just wondered if that's something you can come down to.

So it was a fatalistic thing.

God damn it.

It's not working.

That's what it should come down to for you.

I get one.

That's my point.

You should look at it that way.

I don't think we should.

Do you really think, though, looking at it from your standpoint, you people, if you really should try to...

I was pressing our guys too hard.

I mean, now we've got Buchanan and all these recruiter guys.

Hell, I don't know what the hell else we're here for.

I don't know.

Maybe we don't need somebody.

How many do you want here?

No, I think maybe we don't need so many, but maybe, you know, why not, it's quite a fight in the water, why not do everything that might do some good?

You have a good reputation.

Sure.

I've given the will.

I think it's terribly important that you be fatalistic about it and not worry about it at all.

I'm just wondering about the staff, whether or not we don't get the staff.

Tommy's point is absolutely right.

What you need

It's a stand for education of what they're here to do.

And you've got a lot of dangerous people.

They're very intelligent, they're very dedicated, and they work hard.

The problem is, what are they devoting that ability and capability to?

Now, the problem is that what they're devoting it to is...

It's right at the end of the hotel.

It is in developing programs.

It is in solving problems.

It is in putting on fires.

It is in keeping the government running slowly and trying to make it run more slowly.

They've put very half up to now, and it's

It's not their fault.

It's the kind of people that, in the businesses that they ran, they never, they had advertising departments, and they never thought about advertising their products.

They're talking about lawyers.

They're allowed advertising.

That's right.

So they didn't pay any attention to something.

They are not, none of them, with a couple exceptions, are politicians.

The ones you've had that are politicians, Moynihan and Connell, have seen just the other side of it completely.

And I think we've got to see the other side.

I don't know about Emmanuel Rumsfeld and their politicians.

Not in the same sense.

Why not?

Well, first of all, because they're Republicans.

Republicans and politicians are different camps.

The second degree and the third degree.

And both are on the same coast.

They're not national.

You know, that's your economy.

White-hand voting, nationally.

It's been difficult for Rumsfeld and the nation, too.

kind of a boy out there, I think.

Finch has more of a problem in that he's kind of this overriding obsession of his own political career.

Rumsfeld has an overriding confusion on his own political career.

Bob knows what he wants in general.

Rummy doesn't.

I'm sure Rummy read that, that he sent it to me, that article from Fortune.

Did you read that on the politics?

It's an interesting piece, unfortunately, that goes over the cycles and where the day of the future is.

And they developed a cycle theory using about six different cycles, and all of them put them that we are at the stage, and there have been three cycles, I guess.

We're at the same stage as the Wilson stage of that cycle, which had been

kicked off the first cycle versus the start of the union, and the cyclist kicked off right in, and then the third by FDR.

But Wilson was at the end of the Lincoln cycle, and I guess he was not a Lincoln guy.

And we're at the end of some cycle.

Well, he says, you are like Wilson.

You're at the interface of a cycle.

The cycle we're in now is the social welfare cycle that Roosevelt kicked off.

And he said, we're at the end of that cycle.

The question is, and we'll know this for 20 years, whether this is the end of that cycle or the beginning of a new cycle.

And he said, you are, as Wilson was,

But Jan is slightly looking both ways.

You're partly finishing that cycle, and you're partly starting the new cycle.

And what happens in the next five or six years is going to be .

But I think he concludes.

I think it's his conclusion.

He then says, who's going to bring about the new cycle?

Is it the Democratic Party?

Is it structured now?

And his answer is no, for a lot of reasons.

Is it the Republican Party?

Is it structured now?

No, for a lot of reasons.

It's a coalition of Republicans and Southern Democrats, quite possibly, except that's a conservative coalition, and conservatives have never started a new cycle by inherently conservatives.

No, it's going to end rightly.

I don't know.

And then, but what he concludes is that maybe the...

the catalytic force that does it is the liberal Republican.

And that's the mentality.

It doesn't go that far, not as far as it is now, but something short of that.

It could rip on like Republican now.

And so somewhere sitting in one of the back roads of Congress or in one of the sub-secretary offices in the government is probably the man that will be the next one.

I'm sure a guy like Rumsfeld reads that and says, by goodness, you're right.

I don't think it's your own stuff.

But I'm sure nobody's peers ever did it to me.

The guy either.

No, that's right.

Nobody can tell who's going to be trusted to others.

That's the last thing you want in a vice president?

No, we won't let you come down that road.

Really, you know, just to say that you've been always pushing that.

I mean, it's a long time.

It's a hundred lifetimes.

Well, we don't, as I said, let's not sit around and psychoanalyze everything.

I think that we've done this job and been through all this, but I just wonder if, I don't want you to feel it because we've had this meeting with your staff and everything,

Maybe that exercise is worthwhile.

I'm not sure.

It makes a difference.

It makes a difference for the reason that we live in a PR world.

And the PR, well, as I said, the way they have left the morning thing is a pretty typical example.

If they could take that and build that into an enormous...

Now, what the hell?

I can't take it.

I do think there are press people and others ought to be able to counter that just a little better.

I don't know.

Maybe.

Maybe not.

You can't push it.

They're going to write it down.

Well, the immediate report didn't come out well.

Yeah, they made the point.

What was it that set off this great thing of being a bad reception?

Yeah, and they got all excited because it did, there was a valid thing there.

As soon as they get this part, any little ledge they can get a hook on, they hardly go in.

A combination of hardhats, barbers, and suits.

Right.

to give a new lease on life and trying to figure out a way to get at us.

And there was enough validity to it that they could build it way out of proportion.

I think we've got to take it seriously.

I think it's one we've got to migrate.

We've got to not just laugh off because that kind of thing can build up.

So you mean the idea that the idea can be built up that we're a popular fireball?

Yeah.

You know, all these, rather than the old combination of the quarter and the black and the young, but now you've got the middling gun and the white and the...

And of course, none of these combinations are ever quite the way they say.

It's all a question of 5% to 5% to 10% of any election, except the goal, whatever it is.

Let's face it.

We've got to figure out who our 5% are.

Yes, we also have got to figure out the great issues we're in charge of.

And we've got to hang on to our basics.

That's what it is.

farm folk, suburbs, property tax payers, the rational black in the South.

And I'm curious, though, that, uh, that they're, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, uh,

That's what really happens, you know.

Yeah, they talk, you know, over there they'll say, you know, he was pretty, he was really, he was deepish, wasn't he?

Well, we actually come out of a John Hunt walk of time, too.

He's the kind that does that sort of little thing.

We don't worry about it.

We just pretend to whack right away.

It's amazing what kind of work we do.

I tell you, we've fought a good battle, but that's why we've got to keep fighting.

I just don't think you're right.

It's imperative to be fatalistic.

Have somebody prepare what they think are the good points you've made about Mrs. Nixon and the girls and so forth.

When you do that, who can you put on that?

Take more.

Just give me some common points on that, so that I can...

I want to keep thoughts that I can put out.

Basically, I would go back and read Jessamyn's article, for example, things that could be underscored.

See my point?

I say that it becomes new.

That would be very helpful to have.

I should like to have that, incidentally.

So that I can have it on the way back to Williamsburg.

I'm not going to have it on the way back to Williamsburg.

But I can do that and get some of it tonight.

But it would be better if I had it, let's see, it's not, well, they can do it exactly by 12.

See, so at 6 o'clock, if you think they'll have it by that time, they can get some, get some other hours in afterwards.

So that they have money and time.

Yes, that's right.

I don't want them to spend the afternoon on it anyway.

Just say, let's say that I would like it by 7.30 or 7.30.

I won't expect anything because I'm tied up in the southern outer streets.

It's 14 to 7.30.

I've got to work the price in that.

Yeah?

So how can I call them to say that you were interviewed?

in the times of sin and unpretentious profound.

Six other exalted advocates.

He read it.

Oh, he... Nobody else reads it.

Wait a minute, Bob.

We've got to tell Henry something.

Henry now knows, but we've got Henry to tell some of these other clowns.

Some of them are good colleagues with Price.

Oh, incidentally, too, I want you to read the Newport Street chapter and receive it.

When it gets over, it'll be over at 3 o'clock.

Would you get a speech for Henry?

It's a very, I think it's a very warm speech about young people who have served in their countries and the rest of the world.

I want you to read it in style.

I mean, do you think there's something in it that doesn't fit on it?

It's practically out of the world.

Go ahead and tell them what you have on this list.

I'll use you because we've got a shirt.

I get to rank up.

I said, you know, Coach, the speechwriter said, we'll talk about the Newport speech.

We'll talk about the Newport speech.

And I'll tell you how that speech came about.

I called Cook Sunday to put it off.

And I said, look, I've got to speak for 15 minutes and do this graduation.

I said, and I said,

So I talked to him about that.

That's it.

He's not screaming.

So I talked to him.

I said, these are some of the thoughts that you could put into it.

So he gave me a, you know, two thousand word speech.

And it was good.

Very good.

And then he came in today for the Baldwin Press, and so forth and so on.

And then you came in from there.

He said, well, actually, we're going to have to redo the speech because you covered all the same material that you covered with me on Sunday.

You covered it in your Sulzberger interview.

So it's all covered in the New York Times.

So we can't use it for the speech.

As if anybody who hears this speech is going to have read the New York Times.

Exactly.

Anybody.

And I said, I said, you know, that doesn't make any difference.

Nobody reads the New York Times.

Both those guys, my fellow, Natalia Long, my great friend.

Anybody who reads the New York Times won't necessarily remember this.

The audience, the audience of New York will not read it.

Okay.

But beyond that, more importantly, the television audience will be there, the newspaper audience will be there, the press here will be there.

You see, that's the other thing where I'm taken by the local, by the press, if they see me, so they'll come.

That's the problem.

They'll get up there and it's right here.

That'll cut everything out of the box because I might withdraw his nomination today unless it's denied.

Okay.

I did not get the question, so I did not...

Knock it out of the box.

Yes, sir.

Well, with CBS, isn't that who it is?

Yes.

All right.

Now...

First of all, I have never met the son of a bitch.

I shook his hand once.

Once in my life.

I've talked to Fletcher this morning.

I know.

But I just want to be clear with you that he has never talked to anybody.

I have never talked to a scientist about ABM.

I have never indicated, never, that I have any doubts about ABM.

I have always said everything to the contrary.

And I'm not going to have the new director of NASA at that good job not meeting his flat.

What did he tell you this morning?

He said that he had not discussed ABM.

He said that he has no reason.

He doesn't met me.

He's not only not discussed it, he hasn't talked to me.

Not only in terms of discussing with you, but he said, I have a quote from you.

which is that there's no reason at all why he does not support the current ABM program, he says.

He doesn't disagree with it at all, and that he did not convey that to anyone.

Why doesn't he support it, then?

Well, he said it.

I mean, can't he just say that?

Yeah, he just wanted to say that on his testimony today.

Is he?

Yes.

But he does not disagree with the ADM. That is what Andrew said.

Andrew said, why doesn't he support it?

Yeah.

That's different than not disagreeing.

Some of it's better to get on his ass and say he's going to say, I support the ADM program.

He doesn't say that.

Or I would throw the nomination to Sacramento, and I mean it.

We're going to get tougher on this place.

The other thing is that on Daniel Shore, you know him.

Yes, sir.

All right.

That's to be locked down.

That is totally false.

How can you do it?

Well, I have a client to call CPS.

Dick Slash from the FBI Department.

Tell him first.

This is totally not a hide-and-seek.

Totally inaccurate.

It's totally false.

And that there is absolutely not a grain of truth, one, that I have never discussed with Fletcher at all, in the last second.

Don't defend Fletcher's position.

Fletcher says that Fletcher is not, the main thing is whether or not he's a Fletcher.

It has, this is not his view, he's never expressed this view to a bunch of, or anybody else.

That they're on a bad wicket, and that the President personally, if it is not taken out on tonight's news, I am personally going to take it on a millionth birthday tomorrow.

And I've got to say, Mr. Brown, you've got to begin to handle these guys on your own.

Yes, sir.

Now this is, you don't realize the importance of this.

This is a big fight, Ron.

ABM, you cannot have the president's position that I have black economy.

It affects our demons with the Russians.

It affects our demons with the Congress.

Don't you realize the importance of this, sir?

We've just had new information on these stamps, these SA-5s, of which the Russians have 5,000.

Now it turns out they do have an ABM capability.

I don't understand why I called back and he didn't realize the importance of this.

Don't you realize the importance of that goddamn statement?

Yes sir, that's why.

He quotes the president.

I didn't want to raise it in the briefing because it would tend to expand the story.

I want you to go out and call the President right now and make it.

I want you to imagine this, I want the story expanded, and I'll take this down.

This is a totally false story in all respects.

First, the president has never, the president has never discussed ABM with Fletcher.

Or with any other, no, no, no, with Fletcher.

He has never discussed ABM with Fletcher.

The president's only meeting with Fletcher.

was when he took his hand and put this down.

Now, I've only met the son of a bitch once in my life, and I don't like him either.

When I had a damn hot dinner, he received mine.

So we're going to knock him right out of the box.

The third thing is, the president has never expressed to anybody any doubt

about the, this is totally false, third, and that the CBS was completely wrong.

I want you to knock it right out of the box.

Yes, sir.

All right, that's very good.

Can I ask you one other thing?

Sure, sure.

The Sulzberger interview this morning, which I don't play very well.

I was asked, Sulzberger ran the tax.

And now I'm being asked to sanction that bill from the White House, and others can quote from it.

I assume I can send this to the President of the United States.

The Medicare bill.

I'll be back in a minute.

That was an on-the-record interview.

What do they do with on-the-record interviews?

I had one with Stuart Alsop, and I had one with Dick Wilson.

But my point is, what's your problem then?

Well, they won't think, see, because not only wrote a story for a news course, but then the New York Times ran an excerpt's notes.

Well, and then when I said his notes, and they just run into the story, just like any interview.

I don't know what Ron wants to say for a suspension if the President is quoted accurately.

You know, the point that I make is that the President

If you read the story, of course you did.

I didn't.

I did not.

I never asked to edit the text.

I never asked anybody to submit the text to me for editing.

And I would say that in general, this really reflects the substance of the interview.

That's all.

But it's not something that I wanted any indication of.

I haven't read it.

I'm sorry.

I'm not looking.

Maybe you get the difference.

How do you like that?

Well, if I say in general, it reflects the substance of the interview.

See, what they're talking about is the portion that Sulzberger wrote, so you hear it as a text.

It seems to me that is not to us to release.

That's up to the New York Times.

Well, how can't you just say it was an on-the-record interview?

And it's obviously, that's right, that's Sulzberger's report.

The White House doesn't verify or deny that it's an on-the-record interview.

No, sir.

There was no transcript.

There was no recording.

He made notes.

And that's it.

It was an on-the-record interview.

And I say, is there anything that you would not stand by in that?

Just say, no, I'm not going to.

I guess we just do a comment.

We have, the President has interviews with numbers of reporters.

So we're starting to think that, yeah, that was all on-the-record.

You remember?

Did they ask you to verify that?

No.

Same thing.

Because they re-rent that.

They rent all kinds of stuff.

That's right.

It's on the record.

It's like any on-the-record interview.

Just say, just establish the rule that if you have an on-the-record interview, we're not going to say no.

You can see what they want to do is to use it on their own.

Right.

No, sir.

Use it as reported by all.

That's my point.

That's exactly right.

It's an on-the-record interview just like the other interviews that he's had at least given a second.

It doesn't differentiate with reporters.

It's an on-the-record interview.

Do you know anything that's wrong or right about it?

It's an on-the-record interview.

That's all.

What, Marty, would you like to say?

I don't know, sir.

The change, if you make it authorized, is still printed as a presidential statement.

Which is not what I will allow.

See, I'm not going to issue a presidential statement to a reporter.

This is a long-record interview.

And frankly, the president does not put it this way.

The president always follows the policy, as the interview states, of never editing.

but a reporter reports, and he will not comment on a reporter's report.

That's the common thing is that it's an honorary interview and comments, but as far as reporters are concerned, that's it.

Why don't you just lay it right there?

I've seen a reason for you to get into the business of making a news story on it from here, you see.

Well, except it's a good story, and from the viewpoint of, from our viewpoint, it's good to get that, but get it used.

And notice why you people go in deep back up then and say that there is no, you know, no...

There's nothing to disagree with.

I would say there's nothing in this as there was in the worst form.

I'd throw into that too.

Just like the worst form is gone over in this one.

that they were, that they were, that the president would, that the other reporters, I think you're better off with your position.

I don't want to back around and say there's nothing in the sermon.

No, I wouldn't.

Just leave it just where the president does.

He never edits and never, I think the idea that I don't edit, that the president never edits, he gets it on the record and he'll do it.

And it's up to the reporter to reflect.

What was your point?

That's all.

That's enough.

But I want you to hit CBS the right way.

I want it because of the importance of the issue.

Yes, sir.

And I just say that right out of the box.

Yes, sir.

Don't you think it should be here?

I think... You saw the story.

Oh, yeah.

I think Fletcher should hit it, frankly.

I'll talk to Fletcher.

We'll talk to him again.

He tested positive.

The White House should not get out, too.

That's right.

We ought to make sure that...

I want the CBS thing and all.

The President's view is...

I don't want...

I want him to take it on specifically, and I want him to take it on...

I want to discredit Fletcher right before he starts his job, too, for being such an ass and so on.

He's undoubtedly said something here.

I know these Sniders.

thing to do personally.

I have never discussed it with him.

I have met him once in a receiving line at the NASA dinner in which we had no discussion of substance whatever.

Yes, sir.

Let's put it right.

Does that make sense to you?

Why?

Okay.

Well, to appoint a NASA director.

No, seriously.

I don't think that's what I should do.

That's right.

But you can say you've never discussed what you've said.

But I can say the person's never talked about me.

We've never had one word of discussion.

It's got nothing to do with this.

I've never had any discussion at any time with him.

Or with any other people from NASA about the alien.

Okay.

I agree.

You probably mean something.

I wasn't going to say something.

The scientists are always kissing.

Brown doesn't each other.

You know what this is.

But Joe Alvarado, he has such a time.

I mean, you know, he gets out there and he's pressing people's bags full of shit out of them.

I don't know how he takes it.

Having a little trouble.

He gets a problem.

His problem is that he gets the impression, well, we give something to the certificate manager and then other press men are mad.

Of course they are.

That's why we did it.

What the Christ is he thinking if we did it?

I don't think he's ready for that.

Huh?

Okay.

That's the fact of the matter.

What I told Alsop was that if he writes about it, what he should say is that the most remarkable thing about it is

That you did this without any staff assistance whatsoever.

No, President.

That no one, that I did not give you one line of suggestions of even topics to cover.

Also, I would say that it was not Frank.

I would say that the President, in joke, he writes something that he can say, and you can tell stewards, too.

The interesting thing about this president is that he is one of the few who sees a press man alone.

I saw him alone.

And I saw, you know, I saw, I see Joe alone.

And I saw this guy alone.

Well, not only did you see them alone, which is in itself very rare, I've heard of almost, but the content of the interview was entirely your own.

There wasn't one

even a suggestion for topics to cover.

And I don't know any president who's done that.

What was the name of your wife?

Well, he said he liked his weave, his modesty, his grasp.

He said we haven't had a president who has this sensitivity in foreign policy in his lifetime.

he was really, he called and he was going on and on.

And he agreed.

And the initiative, no, I thought I agreed with that.

I just talked about, I talked in a way I talked to everybody else around me.

But Salisbury, the reason I did it for him was very simple.

Many other times Henry has been disgraceful in its coverage of our foreign policy.

And inside Salisbury has been fighting a very lonely battle against Oaks.

interest on foreign policy.

And so I thought, I read it, it was through the other rest of the New York Times, but that's all it was to me.

And I thought you think it was right.

I think it was right, and I think it was enormously effective.

And I'm getting this word now to a lot of the press.

Evans and Novak are doing a book about you, and I met with them yesterday.

I think it won't be so unfavorable.

What should we call McNamara?

I, uh, I don't, I don't ever know any Bob.

I think I'll call him Mr. McNamara.

What's your name?

I don't know.

Don't you call him?

No, you can call him Mr. McNamara.

Yeah.

But if you could add, uh, maybe a handwritten note, how much you appreciate this gentle man.

Well, I say, appreciate the conversation you've had with him.

Yes.

How's that?

That would be very nice.

Because he's really been very, very helpful also with the other Democrats, and he hasn't said a word publicly against them.

And I was at a dinner with him at Joe Alsop's house where Fritz, he attacked you and Lars, and he nearly tore into pieces.

Good morning.

Oh.

I talked to Bill this morning.

They were going all out.

Well, they were going all out for a confrontation with Israel.

That was good.

That was partly a result of the meeting.

I talked to him after the meeting.

And also, Helms was very upset by the meeting because he said we were going to head into such a confrontation without any prospect of success.

So Bill now agrees with my view, which is to let the Suez thing run at least for a week or so and then see where we are with that.

before we go back to the... Oh, that's very good.

Very good.

That means that... McNamara has it in his head that you're thinking of displacing him, and he thinks that undercuts his position.

I told him I'd never heard of it.

He told me in a newsletter, some bank newsletter, saying that you were keeping Kennedy, David Kennedy, in reserve to replace him when his term was up.

When was his term up?

In 73, and he said that... Oh, I have no idea.

He said that it would be bad to have this political office

And if you wanted him out, he'd leave without the end of his term.

But he didn't think that was it.

What is he doing at the end of his job?

He's doing an excellent job, and he's been more help to you there.

And he's really, he and Freeman were the only two liberals in town who consistently supported you.

Well, I put a note like that on his letter.

Freeman is now head of the private television camera, one of the three channels in England.

He's chairman of the board of chief executive officers.

He has got the job.

He talked to him this morning and he said he wants to send you his warmest regard and high respect.

Getting back to the interview with Sulzer, and we'll go on for this, Jason, as I said, I did it.

It was another two.

got to keep the establishment a little divided.

Now, Cy Salzberger, a lot of people, Henry, we're, as physicists, know that Cy Salzberger is, well, I know, but we don't, we think that he is the New York Times.

A lot of people don't realize that he is in a hell of a fight with those.

You know that.

And so,

So the average person reading it, the average person reading it, even the average intellectual reading the Times will think that the Times, you know, is your brother.

Now, what I was trying to do here, people with two audiences, one of the Times audiences, they'll say Saul's trigger writing, so that's good.

So maybe the Times thinks better of us.

Second, if it does something else, it just eats the ass out of Scotty Reston and all the others.

But I don't know, what I tell you, the way it happened, he came in

And he said, you know, when we met, I saw him a year ago, he said, what were your goals, what was your goals for the country at the end?

I said, I wonder if you would talk about it.

He had about 18 questions that I asked.

I just proceeded to talk for 30 minutes about it, any questions.

I said, well, I said, just let me tell you what I want to see happen.

And I just talked to him, like we always talk here.

And he just sat there and took notes.

And

So it came out.

It came out only because he actually reflected what I was really trying to say.

And Alsop was pleased with it.

Alsop was ecstatic about it.

Because of the tone.

Because of the tone and, of course, the substance.

He totally agreed with the substance of the sweep and what you said about the importance of Southeast Asia and what you said about your conversation with Mrs. Mayer.

Well, he was really, he thought it was one of the most profound and sensitive statements.

Did he get all that in?

All those things?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, no, he had the whole...

I liked it very much.

As I was telling you, Evan and Novak are doing a book, and they talked to me yesterday, and they said, now, how has the president changed in the last few years of foreign policy?

And I said, you know, the remarkable thing is how little he's changed.

He had a very well-developed philosophy when he came here, and he's implementing it.

He's, of course, everybody learns in the job about the bureaucracy and how to maneuver it, but on substance,

He's doing what he came here to do.

And they said they believe now that they've watched it, but that's right.

The thing they ought to do is to read the World Report.

And also they should go back in and read the piece that we did for Foreign Affairs.

That's what I told them.

The Green Guam Conference.

I told them.

And see that it's all part of the piece.

I told them.

And also the thing over there in Ireland, all part of the piece.

And then the other thing that you might throw in on is that

You know, you might, and I don't mind your cooperating with me all the way on a thing like this.

I, myself, because they're, you know, playing their own games.

See, they write one on me, one on anybody else, but you could build it in on a conversation with the heads of state.

I understand.

I went through your trips with them, I said, now, and I gave them a few vignettes here and there to make it more personal.

and what the impact you had on the leaders.

Then they said about Romania, they had heard it was improvised.

I explained to them, I put it in context of your China policy.

I said you had to establish some principle of how to deal with autonomous communist states.

that this had been all part of a peace, long-planned, and I think they're going to do it on foreign policy.

I don't know what they're going to say on domestic policy.

Oh, well, I don't know.

But I spent about two hours with them last evening.

When are they going to come out?

November.

This year?

Yes.

We are having, I can't tell if it's a problem, but I think the South Vietnamese want to get out of Laos and do it within the next two weeks.

I've been in touch with Bunker and Abrams, and I said, of course, their military judgment is governing.

But they should just make sure that they do it because

That's the reason.

My view is that politically, diplomatically, the North Vietnamese will flag this into a big victory if they leave, no matter how they leave.

They leave this quickly.

And then militarily, we won't get everything out of this operation.

We'll get the caches, which are important, and the casualties.

But the interruption of supplies, if they could hang in there another three or four weeks, they're not under bad attack right now.

What I think it is, and what Bunker thinks it is, is that you want to have a victory parade in Saigon and use it that way.

But I don't think we should do anything.

I don't think we should force them to stay.

I just want you to be aware of the fact that Abrams is going up to talk to them today and tomorrow.

How will he be reporting this to us?

Back channel?

Back channel tomorrow.

Now, he's telling you to stay.

No, but not to lay it, because lay it with Tristan.

Now, one thing lay it with Tristan, which I didn't know, he has put a limit on American support only until April 5th.

And I've told Moro that that's nonsense, that if they want to stay beyond that, you turn the author, I said.

Good God, yes, May 1st.

That's right, that's what we, that's May 1st.

My view is if they could... You see, it's March 10th now.

Well, it's March 10th now.

It's March 10th now.

We've been in it a month and a day, more about 29 days, 30 days.

Yes, but I don't think...

I've watched these truck movements.

They haven't really got a stranglehold of the movements until the last few days.

If they could stay, say, another month, until about April 5th or 10th, and then start slowly to withdraw...

then they can't ship any, then the rainy season will prevent any shipment.

As it is now, they can probably make up in April what they lost in March.

I think the strategic gain for us next year is worth some casualties this year.

But we can't insist on it.

No, no, we can't insist on it particularly, Henry, because...

If we insist and they take it back, they'll send it to you?

Absolutely.

And Lear doesn't know they're planning to do it, thank God.

So... What is the situation?

How bad is the building?

Is that really it?

That isn't the reason.

I think it's electoral politics.

I think Pew, and I must tell you honestly, now that I've seen the operation,

The South Vietnamese army is not as good as we all thought last year.

For example, in the Trump operation, now the tree is dead.

They're just moving around.

They are just, wherever the North Vietnamese are, they are not.

I mean, you can see they're moving like crazy, but they're always moving in areas where there are no North Vietnamese in the field.

We're finding them down to where everybody's facing.

were just, this was all worth doing on their own.

We knew they weren't that good.

We knew they were not tentative.

They weren't tentative.

But this is hope.

This is hope for them to be in there and do a little fighting.

They're a lot better.

They're better now.

They're about like the Austrians were in 1915 and 16.

when they were a little bit better than they were when they took the hell of a beating at Lemberg, but they aren't worth a damn.

They're not up to the Germans.

The North Vietnamese are up to the Germans.

That's just what I did.

Whatever chance they've got, we gave them this Cambodian love.

But I think now that after this is over, particularly if they could stay through April, we ought to go back to the North Vietnamese and see whether we can't get this thing wound up.

And I think we might, they've extended their deadline now.

They said if, you know, they used to say June 30th this year, now they're saying December 31st.

And another three months they may say July 1st, and then we're in business.

We'll have to make that decision now.

What do we do?

I wonder if I should get more over here and talk a little about this subject.

Well, let's wait till we hear from Abrams.

I don't want to talk to Larry about it, but I've got to know.

I've got to know what Abrams thinks about this.

Well, I have... Abrams is opposed to it.

No, I know, but I want to know.

Well, who is pushing it then?

Are you getting it from Chu?

Yes.

Chu is what?

What is he directly pushing?

Well, he's pushing a plan for withdrawal.

Starting now?

Starting in about a week.

Starting in three days, in fact.

out of Chiffon and then 10 more days out of other areas.

And going back through 611 or not?

This isn't so clear to me.

And what will be the argument for it on the ground then?

It gets no argument.

But this, we will know more.

Mora doesn't know any more than is in this case.

Let me say this.

It could work both ways.

I'm sure there will be a division claiming that they may want him.

But nevertheless, give it to South Vietnamese, do what we're drawing on.

We just got to make the best of it.

Oh, yeah.

And fortunately, we have gotten a couple of good stories.

We've had about three days running of pretty good stories.

We've had nothing but good stories, that's right.

Yes.

And now they say we've accomplished our objective and we're moving out.

They should go down to 611 or whatever the hell it is and do something like that.

I would prefer they stay.

I'm with you.

But, Henry, I have become completely phallistic about the goddamn thing.

I don't think they're up to a real bang.

I don't think they're up to it.

And if they're not up to it, I don't want them to take that old bang.

I'd rather have them get out, and then we're going to get in the hell out and hold them prey that nothing happened before in 1972.

But we'll get the report of Abrams tomorrow.

And we also want to remember that you can only do your first dose of that air.

Now we've had bad weather, and it's a pity because now they're pushing a lot of supplies in there.

And the bad weather is going to stay there another three or four days.

Bad weather you mean?

In North Vietnam it really is bad.

It's even bad in southern Laos.

so bad that they couldn't even fly helicopters.

Let me say this.

At this point, there is a pretty good damn risk to do it anyway.

If there is, then the thing to do is to claim a psychological victory in that case.

Oh, if Abrams determines they can't do it, we shouldn't.

Then we must let them get out.

If they're just going through one of their periodic depressions, I think the benefits now, three weeks now, could be worth two months and three months next year.

I'm sure.

And to be hit next February with a major offensive there.

I still think your original judgment was right to take the heat now rather than next year, and you have.

And in a way, we've turned the corner.

But I just wanted to prepare you.

We've done what we can.

We've told Abrams that in our judgment that the restriction of April 5th that you had given May 1st, really, that that should not govern him.

But that if for other military reasons they have to do it, he's the judge of it and we don't interfere in that.

And he's not taking a trip up there to assess the situation.

He'll report back tomorrow.

And I'll get in touch with you, and Laura will get in touch with you immediately.

How is this working?

It reports how true Laura is.

True Laura?

Actually, Laura knows that he's got to not let that little layer down.

Oh, God.

You know, Jesus, I noticed that you had a...

something in here to the effect of Laird.

Laird put out some story, or he said it probably personally did, to the effect that he was pushing for a fashion withdrawal.

Oh, he's playing his usual game again.

The usual one, or make him look like a hero.

Oh, he's already putting out the stuff.

Just a hot fashion one withdrawal.

Yeah.

Well, that's why we've got to take that withdrawal and handle it our own way.

Now, Henry, it's...

For now, we've been heroes long enough where now we've just got to revive all that matters to psychology, believe me.

That's right.

All that matters.

And we've given them a hell of a chance.

We've given our guys a chance.

And the North Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese aren't as good.

And despite them being pure, aren't as good as we thought.

I think you're right.

I don't think they're as bad, though.

Oh, no, they're not his fans.

I think they're doing pretty well.

They're doing pretty well, and whatever chance they've got, they've got through what we did for them.

I think we ought to send Hagar next week, and Laird is agreeable to it now, to look at the withdrawal plan.

Send him right now.

And also, I should be saying... We know Abrams won't be there till Sunday.

Any time from the weekend on, he should go.

All right, let's get him off right away.

Get him, get him off there.

That's right.

And while he's at it, he ought to hop over to Cambodian Sea.

Yes.

And talk to Ladd.

You see, you know, that, this thing, that's been out of the news.

Cambodia crashed every day.

We're losing Cambodia.

And over here, we're going to lose one of us.

It's clear.

And the other side is having some problems.

They've got to be having some problems.

Well, the other side is taking to its core.

We've got to just, just pour it on.

They would, that's why I think...

The only factor on the troop thing that we ought to keep in mind is how to play it vis-a-vis the chance for a home run this summer.

But I'm getting various schemes together for you, among which some very big ones and some medium ones and some smaller ones, so you can decide.

Well, the idea of the home run being that you give them a small troop control announcement

Well, a fairly small one.

You're committed to $12,500 a month.

Oh, yes.

Well, that we know already.

But give them a fairly small one, then meet lead doctor in Paris and say, look, let's separate the military issue.

Let's agree on a total U.S. withdrawal by, say, next July 1st in return for freeing of the prisoners.

Cease fire.

And that's essentially it.

If they release all the prisoners.

And I think it'd be a home run.

It'd be better if we could get the ceasefire through 72.

the idea that we have to keep a residual force in South Vietnam.

I'm not a reporter.

I don't think the South Vietnamese are... Well, it'd be desirable, but I don't...

I don't think you're going to support it.

It was my career somewhere.

Mr. President, your re-election is really important.

for a vision future.

I'm afraid we have too many chips on South Vietnam.

And in my recollection, it's important.

Let's remember, I've got to get this off our plate.

And if it's important, then Henry, we've got to get it off the plate.

But that's why I think your negotiation would get it off your plate in a way that establishes your dominance.

I would much prefer that.

Because if you sort of dribble out and then you can't really get out.

Completely, you've got to have a residual force there without a negotiation.

And I think there is now a 50-50 chance that they find that.

They're uncharacteristically shaky right now.

That's why...

When Zhou Enlai had pictures, so many of the propaganda was... Oh, yes, but the mere fact that they trot out the Chinese this way, and Zhou Enlai made a speech, which will probably be reported as very tough, but what he said was,

If the U.S. expands the war further, then we will do whatever is necessary.

But that means we will not do it now.

I don't think they're really meaning expanding to the north.

That's right.

It's a scary way to go to the bombing.

Oh, no.

I think it's a very good idea.

And if this happens, actually the bombing now is militarily very useful, both for the attack they may be planning, but they may not attack so quickly.

They're also repositioning their forces.

They're pulling them actually a little further back, but they're putting them along the route we are planning to go out on.

So they may have to suddenly be penetrated.

Hmm.

Say they're putting them along the loop.

Well, you see, their flag would go out on Route 914, which is the one that goes through Area 611.

And that's where they're putting their forces.

Actually helps us in the present phase of the operation because the pressure from the south has diminished.

Since the battle on Hill 31, they haven't been in nature.

They should have been a hell of a lot closer to home.

They apparently haven't.

They haven't finally gone in.

There's no doubt.

And they're getting a lot of cash.

The truth is we're getting them by bombing them.

They aren't covering them.

When they blow up the cages, then they find the...

Uncovered caches.

Why wouldn't we do that by bombing them?

Before they hit, we were bombing all that area.

Well, because we didn't have them so pencil and paper.

Spotted in the ground.

Yes.

I mean, now we're getting, we're getting, and we're concentrating it in this area.

But they are getting some of that off.

And they are cutting into the truck traffic now.

They have to.

Yeah, it has no doubt about it.

They've got nine foals back we know.

Oh yeah, well that...

They're all nine.

Nine-fourteen.

Well, they're within a hundred yards of nine-fourteen now.

For Christ's sake, they haven't got that little thing much to do down there.

Now, they are at nine-fourteen at its northern leg before the 234 branch is out.

I know more useless things of their own.

for you to see it from now on.

So, I don't know.

There's a lot of thinking about this.

I agree, the best way to end this is diplomatically.

And I told Nancy about it this morning.

I said, my God, I mean, I always, you know, put a little care out there.

I said, now I know all of your fellows are pushing for this.

I said, I can't do this.

I can't agree to this.

There's still a chance for a negotiation if we can.

I've got to keep that card.

I can't educate the men so they can get everything they want without negotiations.

That's true.

And so I said, therefore, we're going to continue to negotiate along our own course.

We could get a negotiation to be the thing.

There's a chance for it.

On the other hand, in terms of keeping these bottles in here,

Let me say, remember I told you once before, do not risk Jews' reelection.

Do not risk the South Vietnamese defeat.

Now if, in other words, even though we know that next year it is true that this is going to guarantee it or something, and maybe if they stay, but if there's a really modest chance even the South Vietnamese taking a rap, tell them to get the hell out.

Well, when Abrams is up there now to take a look at the situation, I, and he'll make a report.

And then, but actually it's not our decision.

Yes.

We are not pushing them.

All we told them was that we are not putting a limit on it in terms of our support.

And I think in terms of victory and defeat and so forth and so on, it's now gone long enough, frankly, because what we're talking about now is not four weeks.

It'll take two weeks for it to get the hell out.

Well, we have...

It'll take two weeks to get out of there.

My point is that we still say, well, they've accomplished their objective, you know, they've destroyed the caches, they've done this, and now they're recording a plan, they're drawing, and there's nothing there.

We can handle the public relations battle easily enough.

In substance, the fact is, we would not have gained this strategic success.

That I understand.

We would have inflicted a defeat on them and a pickup on them.

Any alternative would have been...

I understand.

But it would have accomplished something.

Oh, yes.

Sounds good.

Second point.

You've got a way...

what you gain by affecting the strategic defeat upon them by the risk, and it's a very great risk, of any other defeat on the South Vietnamese at this point.

That has happened.

It not only has an effect on us here that we screw this thing up, but it also has an effect on Jews' real action.

And so therefore, Henry,

We've just got to wait those two days.

No question.

And there is where I think they'll listen very, very carefully to what they have to say.

Oh, no question.

And there we are not pushing them at all.

I'm beginning to think we're not going to get a Russian reply.

And they're getting, they're going through one of their tough phases again.

Their tender, for example, was a surge across the Atlantic and on the way on, and now they've put it back in.

cheap little gains and their general instructions to the party congress are to play a hard line on foreign policy.

Is that right?

How do you know?

We've got it through intelligence.

But I would still recommend that we

We let SALT start and then sometime early in April you just publicly propose what we had put into the letter to Kosykin and then let them turn us down.

But you're getting the press in time and they don't want to sign.

My opinion is that they're so occupied now with the party Congress that who would... Why isn't it that they're really just talking about all this stuff?

No, I think they have two choices.

Either the guy who

It might have been, but that might be Wondry's.

Might also be that the fellow who may purchase one of the key figures, whoever it is, may be Greshner, thought he might get it to win success and solve before the thing.

Now they may figure that they'd rather have their party Congress first and have him do it afterwards.

Maybe the fact is that his domestic situation

isn't so clear so that he wouldn't get the credit for it.

Maybe that's the reason.

When is the party congress?

On the 30th for a week.

30th of March?

Yes.

30th of March for a week?

Come here.

And after that, you might get us on reply.

That's right.

And after that, I'd recommend that we then make a public statement.

So I don't want to take you on a date again.

The President has never talked to the President about this.

On the other hand, I see no reason for you to talk to

Uh, to bring him again?

No, I talked to him Friday, and he knows what's needed.

And if he doesn't have it, it's, uh... What did you tell him?

I told him if he wanted something, better do it this way.

Well, I don't know, something on this, uh, meeting.

Oh, you mean on the Cupid, then?

No, they're not on the Cupid.

I don't think so.

He said he was sending...

I thought he said he was going to have an answer.

Well, he said he was sending a telegram, and he would expect to hear by Tuesday or Wednesday.

Well, you may or may not.

We'll see.

But I am not asking.

No.

Again.

I have no reasons with you.

I think it's a good mistake.

Yeah.

Let's just wait.

March 31st is the party congress.

Well, I have to set that up.

I told Mansfield this morning that we expected to hear nothing from the Russians about anything in the last morning congress.

That doesn't mean our line, everybody.

Right.

And I think we took Stonewall and Geneva and Vienna, and we will, whatever you want.

I would imagine it's an instruction switch to that.

All right, we ought to do a little technical issue.

The reason I want to be sure, Ron, that you do this is because this has to do with all of our assault decisions.

Well, I said, I said, the president particularly wanted me to make it clear that his position on the restoration of his original decision on ABM

I had no reviews on the ABN, which I had a close consultation with all the agencies of government.

Good.

And been misrepresented.

And he does not want an issue which is so white, and so he aided the interstate for his system to be misrepresented.

And it was misrepresented.

Any suggestion that the President had apprehension about his ATM system is totally without a foundation.

The President has total confidence in the system.

Did you also, and I said, and I never tell the fact that I had never discussed it.

I said, not only has the President of the United States never discussed this with Mr. Fletcher,

He has never discussed it with anyone else, and he doubts about KPMs.

And I said, then they led me into the thing.

Well, has he met with Fletcher?

So I used it, and I said, well, he met him, I think, at a reception over here.

So I was able to get that in.

That's right.

But I just saw your name.

CBS got the point, huh?

I'm not going to hold countries to be appointed.

It's a very good story.

Good.

That's good.

You see, Ron, sometimes we have to pick our enemies, too.

And sometimes it's necessary.

We sort of tend to say, well, we'll sort of downplay the story.

I was thinking, for example, I was thinking, for example,

Professor Bob?

Yeah.

I was having lunch.

I'll tell him.

Okay.

They're other cars.

They asked me, well, does Fletcher support the ABM system?

I told them, I said that my conversation with him, he said that he had no concern about the ABM system, but you asked Fletcher, he'd be on the bill this afternoon.

I've gotten the word through to Fletcher that he, by God, better say, supports it.

The whole of this other building stands, sir.

Well, here's what I was gonna tell you.

Sometimes it's necessary to do all these things right now to, like we're going to pick up pretty hard on this next whole thing.

I think that they send you out and kind of press, put you in a position where we're just sort of trying to avoid a flap.

You know, well, the question isn't great.

We won't try to do anything and so forth and so on.

I think that...

I think that we've got to look for opportunities when you can get up and knock their goddamn brakes off.

Yes, sir.

David, what I want you to do, and we're going to change your posture a little now, if you say in that respect, your briefings are excellent.

They couldn't be better.

I know...

But I think that now we can make New Year's a greater asset, but I think you've just got to, sometimes you've got to go, wham, I've got to, oh, this one, it needed to be wham.

And I didn't want to wait, I didn't want to wait until they had that.

Well, there was a certain amount of drama going back out to it.

But David Lawrence, oh yes, I played that game to help, you know, I come out.

But he said, well, what was the president's attitude?

I said he was irritated.

Now, I thought before I said that, but I thought we should express an irritation.

I said he was irritated about an erroneous report.

That's right.

Completely false.

That's what I said.

You probably don't want to use angered or anything.

If I would have used nothing, I could have used nothing, but I think it was okay to express that point from the White House.

David Lawrence made a point in this column a day or two ago that it is normal tradition within marshes and people in the White House

that they do not respond to criticism that comes from the critics, like from the Congress or from someone else, because they don't want to escalate the story.

But the point he makes is that over a period of time, you have all of this criticism coming against the presidential programs, about the policies the White House is making, and those pile up on top of one another.

And his point was, from time to time, the White House should address those critics so that our position is out.

Now, quite frankly, we over the last two years have followed the posture that...

I know that there are times when you want to pick enemies.

Connolly's a great believer.

Sometimes he says, you've got to pick your enemy.

You've got to escalate the story.

You want to escalate the story.

Make it a story.

Fight it.

Get them to fight about this.

I think the Vice President has been used so much, I don't think we should use him.

I use the analogy out here.

I said, for heaven's sakes, when a report appears in the newspaper about something that the administration has done based upon a source, you ask me all the time to see if it's correct.

I said, well, here was a report on television.

It should not be immune if it puts out a...

false impression from us putting on our statement.

They said, are you taking on CBN?

I said, we're taking on a portion of one of their newscasts, which created the false impression about the president's position on CBN.

what's good i guess i saw the cbs executive yesterday and that's it that's the way to do it the uh well just to give you a couple of examples so you know they uh people like a little spark

It was like a little fight.

Now, we've taken it on the chin.

We've taken it on the chin.

with, you know, with Vice President and all the rest, and some of the peer data he showed me, copies of the Des Moines Register and the rest about the fine reception in Iowa, and he said, he said, I went back to Washington, I couldn't believe I was reading about the same trip.

And yet, I noticed the weekly news magazines, the television, both times, Newsweek and the television,

that we've got a very unfriendly reception.

Of course we've got an unfriendly reception.

We have a hell of a lot of tickets.

And so what do you do about it?

I wonder.

I think our mistake is, I told Hall, and I said, and he realized it, and said, next time you go out, we should have got a few of our guys to talk to.

We should have had more of them.

I said at the meeting the other night, another thing is that we couldn't have anything.

Now, we'll have Williamsburg.

I just want to know, and I'm sure we expect more.

They're going to be the William and Mary crowds going to come home.

They were there last year.

Do you remember?

In 68 they were out.

Remember when I was there in 68?

I pointed it out to the press.

We expect pittance.

The president always expects pittance.

I say the president is an eye-opener.

He looks around and thinks it's some victim.

But he doesn't mind it, provided it's peaceful.

He thinks peaceful picketing, provided there's no...

It's only when there are dangers, physically endangers,

other people in the crowd, you know, or something like that.

Peaceful findings.

Perfect.

We aren't.

Why don't you just say we expect it.

I think both of those addresses are going to be helpful.

Excellent.

I talked today a little bit about that.

I think they're... Well, what I've got to say is, I look at that story of how could you get the divine surgery to be changed.

That's part of the public.

That's part of the public myth, obviously.

I don't think that has really slipped into the consciousness.

Of course, I've never been to put much weight in what Newsweek of Time really does in terms of a national impression.

I do know this.

I watched the news shows that night.

Capital had a balance report out of there.

rather, as a matter of fact, made the point in his report that there were some demonstrators, but as the president moved to the hotel, there were 300 clouds in the street, showed you out of the car shaking hands and so forth.

So I think that impression was done.

But I said to Bob, and I mentioned in this meeting the other night, which was an excellent meeting.

Wow, he is sharp.

I think that...

Yes, he's great.

But I think in terms of Secretary Harden, in terms of the cabinet, in terms of the administration, and I said this the other night, I feel this, the press are going to be adversaries.

They've been adversaries in the past.

They probably are more so in this case because just their philosophical makeup.

But we can approach the press in a positive

confident way, and never in a defensive way.

The moment an administration appears to be on the defensive, you get the same reaction from the enemies of the press that you get from the enemy on the battlefield or wherever you are.

Then the initiative goes to them.

But you don't consider this sort of thing a pocket CBS?

Absolutely not.

No, sir, and I don't consider your remarks the other night defensive.

No.

I don't think that it is a negative or I don't think it's being defensive.

I don't think your remarks came across as being defensive.

But I don't think that there's any problem at all for the President of the United States occasionally to be

upset with things or with someone or with something.

And this is the point Conley made the other night too.

Quite frankly, that's what influenced me to say irritated about this thing.

Well, his point was, you know, here's a man who probably devotes more of himself to the presidency than anyone has ever devoted to it in terms of his competence and the details of the job.

you know, the studious president and so forth.

And he said, here's a man who is very compassionate, very understanding and so forth.

But he also made the point that here's a man also who has a spark in him to

to become irritated, to become angered, to become, as he said, in a healthy way.

And I think by conveying that from time to time, it... You can't indicate to yourself, oh, that's... That's right.

On the other hand, you can't... You see, everybody who's worried about it is doing it on Johnson.

what Johnson really did, that he got mad at the press personally.

And that's the point he was always making.

I don't know, as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less what they think personally.

I think they're all saying, all equally, all equally.

There's never been a mischievous word expressed.

Do you realize that?

Do they know this?

I've made the point.

what Johnson's mistake was, he got mad at him personally, and then went to a jail, right?

Or he called him in and he got him out.

We're not going to do that.

I think what we have to do is to...

I think we're good.

All right, see, we're going to head up again.

On the next office conference, we'll have a camera over here and just move it in here.

And let him ask everything.

We're doing it.

These interviews, these interviews have had, that's why they came out.

They won't let me this morning on the Sulzberger thing, I realize that.

Well, listen, why don't they?

You know why I gave it to him?

I mean, the real reason.

He's entered, he's pulling into the comments.

You know the situation.

Si is not the brightest guy in the world, but he's the only person in the foreign policy staff at The Times who shares our views.

I've known him for 20 years, and he's a rather decent guy, and he writes pretty well when he thinks.

And he's an honest reporter.

But he's in a hell of a fight with Johnny Oaks and Scotty Russell about Vietnam and everything, foreign policy.

So he saw me a year ago.

I see him every year.

I see him every year for at least, you can see him in Seisselberg every year for about a year.

I saw him in London once, and I saw him in Paris once.

I saw him when I was vice president.

In other words, he's a gentleman.

He comes in about once a year.

We're old friends, to put it that way.

I mean, we've known each other for a hundred years now.

I figured there was no better way to get our viewpoint across to the Times, which nobody agreed to, except to be people of color.

And they kneeled, the leadership of the Times, and they had Cy Sullivan and now Cy, of course, was spread around that place for a while.

Scottie O'Neill up the wall, Johnny Oaks was right in the National Editorial Room, and so on and so on down the line.

As far as these press guys are concerned,

Hell, a lot of them had individual interviews.

You know what I mean?

I had no objection.

And the rules are always the same.

They quoted me.

I mean, they weren't supposed to, but then one time after the election, you know, they quoted me.

I mean, there was no, did Joe Patrick ever quoted me?

Sure.

And if I had no objection, I had never sat and examined the transcript afterwards.

That's another thing to do.

I've never in all my life examined the transcript.

I won't do it.

I told him that.

I will not do it.

I told them you had not read the transcript.

They said, well, you mean he didn't read the summary?

I said, what I'm referring to, he didn't read the transcript of the article.

See, their question this morning was, Salzberger wrote the transcript.

I said, if you're going to refer to it, refer to it as, as reported in the New York Times by Cy Salzberger in an interview with the press.

No, because the point is, he just made potential notes.

He did not have a transcript.

They said, well, is there anything in the article that you want to shoot down or disagree with and so forth?

No.

maybe seven months from now, we'll say the president said that this is probably the last war.

I said, wait a minute.

I said, the president indicated, if you look at the context of the article, that his objective is to achieve a generation of peace.

And as he is approaching foreign policy under the Nixon doctrine, the strengthening of our allies, our posture throughout the world, it is his hope and it is his desire to lead to a period in our history where we will have peace.

That's right.

And if you read the transcript, this could well be the last one related on that, sir.

We may have one.

For us, it's better than when I was speaking about two of the interviews I was talking about the last one.

Well, in the world, right.

Oh, well, hell, I can't talk about what's going to happen in Latin America, Africa, and the United States.

That's all right.

But you see what it does to the Indian people so many times.

And nobody really thinks that anybody at the time was a friend of mine.

So nobody's going to claim Si Sulzer gave us anything for him, right?

He isn't like Joe Alsop, for example, that they consider as a friend whose history, which, you know, I've been introduced to.

I'll put it on the line.

Dave Wilson has had it.

Dave Wilson's ISO.

Dave Wilson, of course, works hard.

This follow-up.

Drummond.

Roscoe Drummond.

And so on down the line.

Some of them use it in direct quotes.

Some of them do not, but they're not by objection.

Others have used it.

We don't care.

I think it makes no difference.

You go on.

You cannot expect them to speak in background.

Don't work.

I agree.

I do.

I agree.

There are some, sometimes when you're with a columnist, you're a little backgrounded.

Well, you can go back, but I think you've got to say, well, you can go back and say, these are my views, or some matter I have talked about, and you can express this, and so on and so on.

Well, now they had their press conference last week, and they had this this week.

Now we'll get a little office press conference.

Then the one-on-one with ABC.

The one-on-one with ABC.

We're going to get a different reporter to push up.

That'd be good, Mark.

What'd you say?

And the Barbara Walters thing.

Yeah.

I wish you would just do it.

I can't hear you right now.

You can all hear her.

Go over it.

I think if you don't, I think if you don't, if you let a man like that go, let me put it this way, it's the story of, it's what Dick Moore used to say, he would always nail the little lies.

Now I don't go quite that far.

But when a little lie can affect a bigger man, you've got to know that this is a little lie that really can affect a bigger man.

It's just totally not true.

It'll be interesting someday.

And when I talk to Shore, I'm going to go call him right now.

I wouldn't bother calling him.

Well, I'm going to call him for the purpose of...

Tell them that he was wrong.

No.

You don't think so?

No, no, no, no.

No, sir.

Don't call him out.

All I knew of you was just freedom of the cold and restrain.

You would get CPS.

Don't you?

Don't give him the benefit of the call.

If you call him, you'd better sell that or any of those people.

And you get an argument.

They, CPS, they stuck with their story.

They didn't check with you to see whether or not the story was accurate before they went.

Now I'm going to call you.

Yeah, you probably will.

All right.

But when he calls, I will be talking to myself and say, that is totally false.

Anybody that's been with the president of this knows it's totally false.

There is nothing expressed totally false about me.

But I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure if it went the other way, like you said, I said earlier, call someone and raise help.

That's another way to get at it.

But now you're picking them off.

On the broad spectrum, hell, let them call you.

Yes, sir?

Yes, we will.

Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Public Relations and Vietnam War

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Also recorded on March 10, 1971

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Nixon, Haldeman & Kissinger on Public Relations and Vietnam War

AI Summary

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Transcript (AI-generated)

Also recorded on March 10, 1971

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