Conversation 465-008

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He said, he called me, and I wasn't in my office when he called.

I returned it just a couple minutes later.

He said, I can call the president.

He said earlier he was tied up.

He said, tell him not to call me back.

All I really was telling him was to tell him I felt the Salisbury article came out very well.

Primarily because it gave you, you understand the president better.

He revealed him as a man and made you sympathetic to his viewpoint.

So that was his reaction to it.

Then he said, we've had a meeting on this NSC thing, and there's no need to have a meeting this afternoon.

So he had called Henry, apparently, earlier.

Oh, yeah, Henry didn't want to be in.

Henry had only agreed to put the meeting back on as a result of Rogers wanting it yesterday.

Apparently, Rogers now decided he didn't want it.

Did Henry go to look at it?

That's pretty good.

He looks like a cat cartoon or something.

He did.

I just remembered, just as you were leaving last night, Henry had sent another bitch back to town.

That's the NFC group.

Come on in, sit down.

What do you mean?

Hey, I believe... No, I'm sorry.

Tito.

Tito is the name.

Uh...

The, uh... Why, Tito... Why, uh... Why, Tito...

uh... uh...

Mainly about the war.

How many words do you know?

Two thousand words.

You said a little bit less than a thousand words.

At this point, about two thousand.

Well, kind of a little.

The next thing is that I thought it would be interesting to talk about is the feeling told to people with regard to... Let me tell you how I feel about the glass and how they are.

They were the top 10% of the class, 17 out of 250, which is a very important accomplishment.

And they already had a commission for a year, an AD commission, you know, without going to an analyst, which is, of course, a very high honor.

You will, of course, not take it.

I will not.

Well, you can climb down.

And you've got a family to wish for.

But what I wanted to get across, basically, we have to understand that these kids, like, they all hate the Navy.

You know, let's begin with that, most of them.

They hate the service, and they hate it for the same reasons that we all despise the service when we work in it.

I mean, it's a, these are the right kids, you know, for school, for college graduates, and the rest of them.

But often, when they go to college, they don't take any service.

And they see the war winding down, so they don't have the fear, they don't hate it for the reason that some, the fear, well, I'm going to Vietnam and get my tail shot on, this and that so much.

These guys all know as far as the Navy's concerned, the war's over in Vietnam.

The likelihood of any of that being captured in Vietnam is very, very remote.

As you know, as you probably know, all naval activities now are turned over to the South Indian Navy.

That's a big deal.

So what was involved here is, very frankly, you're just taking a tree or a dog that flies, and these guys have got to run around, you know.

One of the things we used to do in the service, and they raised it, but I didn't.

I remember when I was a young lawyer, it was terribly degrading to make the victim or somebody else, you know, make a loss.

These things we all have to do to put it back to us.

And even though, I mean, pretty far apart from the occupation of the Great War, you know, but the three years was probably dandruffed in from all the citizens.

I mean, any kind of time away, sometimes, whatever.

By the way, what I'm really getting at is something else here.

What I want to get across to them really is a sense of, which I think you've got here, the sense of what here we understand.

This is hard.

I mean, you mean it's hard for you to face three years of boredom.

Boredom is a good word for anything.

That's what it will be for most of them.

I'm sure they'll think about their lost years.

And also, we must understand that this is something that we're doing.

It needs to be done.

These are not lost years.

Now, I have taken out what I believe you've taken out of me, and it's that sometimes it gets a little bit harder to put in.

A little of that, but leading into the why you, why the piece was briefed for justice.

Let me see if I can get it to the point.

I think it's...

I'm still scared of this thing.

I should probably see it in perspective and think it's worthwhile.

What do you feel, right?

You've read it.

I think this is worth saying.

It's a kind of thing that we want to do.

So we just give a few remarks.

That's what we want to do.

I mean, you see what I'm talking about.

I can't talk to you specifically.

Firstly, really what it turns on is who you're addressing, whether you're addressing the graduating class in Newport, the younger generation, or the country, which is torn by knowledge and so forth.

It's more in the graduating classes period.

That's what I'm trying to address.

Well, that does put a different twist on it, doesn't it?

Yeah.

It isn't addressing me.

That's why I took out the section on the graduating classes that the generation had, so forth and so on.

Young people kind of, the black people that have to go through the agonist service.

All right.

I think that point is one that is well worth thinking about.

Everybody says the draft is horrible, this is terrible, and we have to maintain all these forces.

Awful that we have to maintain, that we have to handle leadership.

You can't say that to anybody.

You're going to say it to very sophisticated people.

In terms of what the years mean to them personally, of course, the graduating class at Newport is different from the average kid who's going into the draftee in the Army.

There's about two of these, technically, on the graduating class at Newport.

All he did is postpone.

He postponed, but he's got three years.

The guy in the draft, he's only got two.

And it's the same as the other.

He got an envelope in the seats, too, enlist to avoid the draft.

A trigger to avoid the draft for two years.

And he doesn't really do the same things.

He's got even that twice.

And this is about the volunteer army.

He stated, well, we don't have a volunteer army.

70% are enlisted.

That's just the basic question here.

They wouldn't be enlisted.

It would be 20% if they didn't have the draft, basically.

The people who are graduating in Newport will get a lot more out of the service, personally, than the average draft team.

Oh, I get your point.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I'll argue that point.

Maybe with a demand.

Yeah, I mean, it's capability.

I'll argue those kinds of things.

Yeah, you've got to stop and think of the ratings, right?

You know, I know the kind of guys that were in my office, and let's face it, they were all sort of national educations.

You know, today they have a little bit more.

Maybe they got a couple years of high school.

They didn't know anything.

And frankly, when they leave, they aren't going to be doing anything very important anyway.

These guys are people that really, that set their sights much higher.

I put it this way, the enlisted guy,

See, I think the service is a much less difficult for the enlisted man to whip the enlisted man, as we think of it in the Navy, than it is for the officer.

For the officer, it's a terribly, degrading, difficult thing.

I mean, in a network who have the potential of lawyers and doctors and poets and writers and so forth in our government, they've got crap.

I mean, he goes to the fancy guy that was going to go out and be a truck driver, and he's listening to those things that come out of his mouth.

Maybe he's a truck driver, or maybe he's a cleric, or maybe he's a service station operator.

He's one of the 70, 50 that would be in the workforce.

But he isn't the follow-up, usually, that has all that much ambition.

or all that much capability.

I don't think it's as hard on him, in other words.

He loses a lot, particularly on the money side.

He hurts that money, but no, he gets some travel.

It's the kind of guy that might never get out of his state.

I'll put it this way.

I don't think the service, to be perfectly frank with you, does much good for a man of officer capability.

I regret it.

I regret it because it's just another restriction.

I think it could, frankly, for some of the enlisted, it could take some of those people who are enlisted men and women, and letting them out is a good thing.

I mean, it's just the Blacks that keep that out.

It's good for them, but I've seen a lot of the whites, the poor whites, the others, and so forth, and getting them the sense of discipline, responsibility, and all that sort of thing, to come out standing a little bit more in rank, rather than closing up.

Let's get away from that.

The main point is whether you feel

Let me do this.

I'll get it back, and you can have a brief run-in with my direction center.

And both of you take a look at it to see if it feels right.

If it feels right, really.

Because you can't, we're always talking to the country, right?

But we want to, we're not.

The country's listening.

I'm not too concerned about the class.

The way the class is, it's getting a few remarks.

First, I guess most of what you originally had in mind for this was in the Sulzberger interview, I think, today.

Yeah, some of it.

These are just my general views.

He had some of them.

I thought they came up very well.

Yeah, but don't consider the Sulzberger interview doesn't, because nobody reads the Sulzberger interview and how a lot of people hear some of what the President says.

Right.

Well, maybe at least, I don't know how well-sold the reporters are, but to the extent that he got anything that was accurate, I think he's a very good reporter on the veterans.

A great deal of wishing.

I probably gave the same thing that I gave to you over the phone I called you.

I haven't seen cuts on it yet.

If they're not going to leave us all, they're going to leave us both.

That audience is an audience of about 150,000.

So we're not talking about that.

Forget that.

We're not talking about that.

We're talking about the country always.

So that's why.

Don't worry about that.

Is there anything good in the Sulzer or anything good that I haven't got here?

Well, a lot of it is in here.

I don't know what you're thinking now.

All right.

When you see what you said, why don't you take another look and see if it has a nice feel for it and we'll figure it out.

Because the point needs to be made twice.

If we get as good of a soldier as they're going to be, let's make it again.

They don't get it the first time.

Nobody really always says they don't get it until four times.

I doubt it.

We were thinking then, you were talking about shortening it, cutting it back down,

I didn't cut it.

I cut about 25%.

So it's 15 minutes, which is long.

Anybody can watch 15 minutes.

The main point is, though, I want you to read it as a field.

Again, you know, even a detector to see if you...

I don't want it to...

It has a nice spiritual at the end, which I think you've always said about me.

Billy Graham, Billy's the only person who tells me to quote the Bible.

I read the Bible too once.

I don't know what to think.

But everybody else has quoted the Bible so I might as well.

Is that out of the Bible?

Are you sure?

Or is that out of the cross?

Or Christ's?

No, that's Isaiah.

Yes.

You know, if you use the word prophet, though, it could be one of all these people.

I could say Isaiah.

No, no, no.

No, I think the prophet's much better.

I don't confuse people.

They'll go searching around.

It's very true.

It's a nice stuff.

You'd like to take a whack?

And then what would you like to do in terms of when you'd want to work on it?

Oh, I think you ought to get this, frankly.

I have heard it was on Cyclone Williams for tomorrow, so I would say they'd like to see this around Freed Block today.

But actually, you haven't much to do.

You just took a give-and-see kind of thing.

the kind of changes that I think is more important.

technical points like ours, rather than the war was dragging us down.

Our involvement in Southeast Asia is coming to an end.

We have to be more precise.

And then, rather than out of the blood and the bitterness and the testimony, we absolutely ought to be sick, but not out of the sacrifice, but out of the blood, you see.

Out of the sacrifice and so forth.

And then where we have these, just give me some thoughts, that when war came, when war struck upon us, when it came, we fought.

I don't like to feel that young Americans met the challenge.

Just all of these seem like small changes, but they get more of a challenge than I want.

And then I take out the department.

The sacrifices have been great.

I know that those who question the wisdom of the Adom War and consider these sacrifices unbearable, I don't want to go into all that.

I contended it so often.

But we do it, well, in an oblique way, anyway, here.

And then I take all that out next, down to the bottom of the next page.

In other words, I go from there to page four where I say, when force is rewarded,

The last two sentences, you got that?

You know where we are?

In other words, strike, strike and sacrifice, as I've been saying, strike there, and you strike all the way down to plan for some reward.

It's in the last paragraph, the middle of the last paragraph, the cost of peace and the only alternative to war is tyranny.

See, that picture's nice, where it was previously.

I take off, for example, I understand some of the sentiments behind it, and I am sympathetic.

I do not sympathize.

I do understand, but I'm not sympathetic.

I think that's the difference of the matter.

Well, it's true.

I can understand anybody, but when you say you sympathize, that indicates agreement, and I have all agreement.

I understand and I agree.

And I add here, do not propose a deal.

I don't want to get the idea that we're giving up on the idea that the largest fleet or the biggest armies are the greatest air power and the most missiles.

That would certainly hold the flap of Jackson and a lot of other pieces.

But what I do is simply add a sentence.

We do not seek power as an end in itself.

We only seek power adequate to our force.

And rather than say, rather we have to make peace than we have to build peace,

So, any security questions?

Just a little bit, a little bit more about the problem with the affiliation of that.

So, anyway, we don't want to spend too much time on it.

We've got to get it right at the present time.

But if we think about it, it will be quite easy.

And mainly because it's about 70 days.

Very few people will pick up on it and say it's a forgiving day.

Talk about judges, prison reform, and all that sort of thing.

It'll be picked up in red.

This will be picked up more than that, in my opinion.

Because it's about 70 people who are ready to make this their time.

He didn't say almost anything about the war in the church.

Rogers, you know, goes on and pops off about everything else in the media.

He says one little line in the PSW about Vietnam, so that's a headline.

You might want to go for live TV in the afternoon.

On this?

Sure.

Why don't you do this so you've got to think about it, put it all together, and look at it as a whole.

It might be a nice audience.

It might be a beautiful setting.

That's right, he was speeding up for the armed services about time, so what he did?

He just kept knocking on the door all the time.

What did he try to do?

Are you keeping busy?

Yes, we're pretty busy.

We are.

The whole room.

You still looking for more help, are you?

Still at it, yes.

I'm trying to get, trying to, probably the vicious cycle is up, getting my head above water enough to find the help so that I'll get my head above water out.

But they're all doing a fine job.

We just keep, uh... And we do have things in train of trying to get the foreign policy over from state too.

Good.

That's very important.

I don't know the names of them, but I don't mean to get all over their business of letters and foreign and state and so forth.

It's ridiculous that your office writes those.

I mean, when I say that you people take the time to write those, I mean to get them in style, but there's nobody in Henry's office who can write illiterate.

I mean, frankly, a, what shall we say, an elegant letter, then it has to be, I mean, there has to be, the letters to Kensington State have to be in high style.

So there are guys at State who can do it, but you've got to find one who's good at it, see, all over here.

You won't like it, but it's alright.

It's important to write a good letter.

Nobody here believes that.

They always send the damned things over here.

Say, oh, the mail's horrible.

Sorry for it.

You tell all these young guys that.

You tell them to write a letter and say, oh, God, this is the right letter.

Don't you agree?

Sometimes, yes.

And sometimes it can be exciting.

We do run into problems sometimes.

One of them is that when we separate the person who caused it, the quality letter separated from the substantive input.

Caused it from the substantive input, so the person trying to make it an elegant letter doesn't really, isn't really, isn't really that different from what was meant to be said.

I understand that.

You know, it's absolutely fascinating.

You just gotta drive it home every hour, on the hour, and it never gets through.

They think because you gave some of that stuff to Sulzberger, because he printed it in his paper this morning, that now it's been said, so now we've got to go on with something.

I think Cook was actually sitting there disappointed that you had scooped his stuff, because he had written the same stuff you told him to write, which you had also given apparently similar stuff.

He had that 10 times, actually.

And God, man, these people, he thought I was taking leave of my senses when I said nobody reads the New York Times.

But the point is, who the hell does?

Hardly anybody in New York reads the New York Times, and nobody anywhere else reads it.

But boy, you can't get that through.

They say, you know, by God, Sulzberger read it in the New York Times, all this.

Who said that?

Well, they're all this way around here, yeah.

In fact, our whole group... Of course, your press will do the same thing.

They'll react the same way.

If you go up there... Well, don't you go up there and say the same thing up there?

They'll say, oh, that's what he said himself.

Sure.

So you do it again.

It's hard, though.

It really is.

It's just a thing that people can't get into their minds.

When they read it, they figure everybody's read it.

I think Ziegler's beginning to understand it.

But you don't, it isn't just that.

No, he doesn't really.

Ziegler's always looking for what's new, hot news, inclined to.

But how about Mr. Manning?

He's working well as the TV guys did.

No, I mean, well, when I say Mr. Ziegler, anybody who's working with hot news always asks what's new.

And they miss the nice stories.

They miss the things that really...

may have a little puncture.

Of course, these will get carried on the wires.

Now, some of them will be picked up, some of them now should.

They won't get any damage in this case.

The sloping, I'm trying to understand, because they're all subservient.

Well, so Henry and Rodgers are now speaking to each other and not speaking to each other.

I mean, there ain't any damn difference in that, is there?

I don't know what you mean.

Well, I got a line in this one.

He wrote the act on Fletcher.

He says that Fletcher denies all of that.

That's not all.

Well, Fletcher, I sure must have made it up.

I have never expressed, I have never met the son of a bitch, Fletcher, except to shake his hand in the mass of dinner.

And the second thing, I have never spoken about ABM to any scientist, ever.

Ever.

That's, as he said, if I hadn't thought about it.

Now that is a goddamn lie.

You've got to get on it.

Sigler's got to, Sigler's got to deny that.

Now that's one time he's got to step up and won't believe it.

I assume so.

They talked about that this morning.

The, uh, the incredible thing there is understanding what was in Fletcher.

Obviously he did say something.

And he was at a luncheon with some other people.

And Shorter was at the luncheon also and he didn't know Shorter was at his bench.

He's passed to Shorter who does that though.

He used to do that to Court Finch all the time.

Did he?

Yeah.

Oh wow.

Because he covered ATW at the time.

You know, by working around to finally get Bob to say something that he didn't mean at all, then he'd run out and use it.

There's nothing I can say about interesting Bob, though.

I wonder if you haven't thought about it, that because it was raised by the leaders meeting, and to show you how just a tiny little incident like that, I think that was treated in Des Moines.

It was a huge story.

All those leaders thought that we had a hell of a bad reception in Des Moines.

I see why.

It was not only carried in the Washington Post, but it reflected also in both the news magazines, you know.

But what happened here, though, is, and also throughout the story around the White House, they were probably concerned about it.

And I just can't believe in any White House statement.

I wasn't worried.

I saw that in the back.

It was the last minute.

I don't know what to do about it.

But the White House said it was the one that ran it.

You know, I hit him every time.

You've gotta be.

These guys don't act.

Don't act.

That's the point.

They've just gotta not act.

Not act.

That's right.

And, uh, certainly never say so.

We'll get it.

That can be, they can play that off.

You'll have to surface or anything else.

We go right in there, you know, we're not going into that airport.

No, we're going into, you land at Williamsburg, but you have to drive, you know, from the helipad at the end, and then walk in over to the conference center, which is very short.

Yeah, but it's all in the ground, right?

Yeah.

Wow.

In the rest area.

Oh, this is part of the drill.

Is that what you're going to do?

Probably get some of this very time, sir.

I'm waiting for you.

Is that done?

Yeah, that'll do.

We have had it.

And they don't make it up more because it is the time of Laos and it's the time of the, they're all trying to talk about politics.

But the point is, good God, we've had demonstrators.

There's been a place where we haven't had them.

Can you remember?

I can't remember any.

I have a son.

Maybe he's out in Turkey.

No, not in one place in Texas, but in the others.

I got every place else.

We had it in Albuquerque.

We had it in Bogota.

We had it in Nevada.

We had it in, you know, every place in California.

Good God Almighty, they wouldn't put it in order to do it.

I mean, we've had demonstrators.

It's a thing of our time.

I mean, they're just demonstrators for everything that happens.

And look, Chief Johnson had so many of them go out in the places we're going and couldn't talk.

Yeah.

I wonder if in this case, frankly, it was Ziegler at all, if we did do any, if Ziegler at all did any kind of job for a student.

Well, like I said, I'm trying to give up.

on that point, except I do think that Jack Miller, Hart, Hart was around last night showing all the members of the cabinet the coverage of the Des Moines Register.

He said six pages of the next interception in Des Moines, and so forth.

He never said that he was coming here.

He said he was going to mail it to some people.

What have we done on that point?

And we tried, did Miller make a talk, did he try?

Miller did, and nobody, just Miller did the thing, you know, the indignation thing of the unfair, you know, disrepresentation of the attitude of the people of Iowa.

And I don't know, the magazines loved the chance to play the press.

Some of them put it in perspective, some of them didn't.

We made a mistake.

We've got to face that.

Not a lot of them have been probably not cranking up their own.

We won't do that again.

We won't have an opportunity.

There isn't any crowd to crank up there except we've got to make sure that the people that are there have gotten it.

What do we do?

There's a source for that, for real, for that.

No, we don't want to bother with that.

Newport, we've got a problem there.

No, no, it's Quonset military base.

No problem at all.

I'd like to add to that.

I'm saying that enthusiastic reception.

Because they were all servicemen.

Dependent.

Right.

They're all servicemen.

They're supposed to be happy because they're underserved.

Let's look at this in another way, though.

Maybe we're reacting too much to that.

Maybe we're not.

Isn't this, though, having to do with Connelly's point about the man?

People like to think that the man is well-liked, I think.

We know very well there's some, but not a hell of a lot.

You know what I mean?

You're talking about the difference between 60 and 50, right?

So what's the health?

That's what it is.

But I thought Newsweek reached quite a bit when they said that I was peevish with the press.

And they ought to get some net letters on that to me and just say, I saw it.

Because if you know, if anything, if you know, we talked about it later, it wasn't him.

I should have hit him harder.

I wasn't peevish at all.

Did Ron run into that?

That's the first I've seen him now.

Overdorfer set that line.

He could tell it was coming somewhere because Overdorfer ran it.

He gave me the point last week that...

He had sort of that, that you were angry, and he gave anger or petulance with the press or something, and that you had talked directly over their heads to the MTV camera as if you were trying to get passed in directly to the people.

And I said, just actually say what you were doing.

Well, we don't worry about such things.

But at least I keep on...

It's fascinating to watch.

Over the years we've watched the meat dog push his buttons.

One of them comes up with the thing and you can see that.

The news magazines this week are a week late on the migration thing.

They're all following last week's television.

They missed the turn.

They're all a week late.

Right.

And so hopefully this week the police go the other way in making it look like they're out of town.

This week.

Actually, it could be bad again, but that's the way it is.

Great.

My only answer is I think they should do more and more on television.

So I'm in on that, but you agree?

You think our next one should be the film thing in the end, or how do you think we should drive it?

Or should we just do it?

Yeah, and drive it.

Because you don't want to keep going on.

And we've got the one-on-one coming up, you know, right after this.

I'm sure we'll put you back on TV in 20 seconds.

CBS is delighted with the chance of having one of theirs.

I don't like to have you.

Also, Barbara Wallace has a better thing set up than that.

the day show deal.

And we'll do it tomorrow afternoon.

But she, and what we're going to do is let NBC also use that from Saturday noon on, because you'll have, the other stories will go on Saturday noon, so they can scoop themselves if they want to, which they will probably do by running something on their evening news, on saying in an interview, you know, for the today show, which will be

seen on Monday or Tuesday.

She wants to go to half an hour.

And I will not do it unless she's going to use the phone.

That's clearly understood.

I will not go to let them come.

That's understood.

That's better.

And we said, you know, we talked.

Therefore, I'd rather go live.

I think I'd rather use the phone live.

And I'm pretty sure, Bob, I won't trust them on coming.

I won't trust them.

They won't come.

It's understood.

They'll shoot to full length.

They will.

If they do this, you know, they've had it.

I will only do exactly what they're going to use.

That's understood.

It will be done as a live thing, no editing.

I think she should do, we should ask her to say something.

At the President's request, this is an unedited interview, tape recorded with the President.

How's this going to work and are we going to do what we're supposed to or what we told them?

I don't know if we've told them this.

I don't see them tomorrow, but the next day, tomorrow.

The idea would be to do Barbara Walters at about 445, and then do the ladies of the press right after.

Well, that's the next question.

The recommendation is the yellow oval one.

Unless you don't want television up there.

No problem.

If you don't mind having it set up up there, that would, it gives us a nice, you know, it's a good place to do it.

If not, uh, the red room or the, you know, one of the farmhouse downstairs.

Okay.

The Bain-Arts area.

Oh, the yellow, I don't know, the yellow room, I don't think it's a very good room.

Well, I'm sorry.

She knows damn well now.

I just want to be sure.

Yes, sir.

On this, she knows first.

Leave that.

Leave that first and that second part.

It is not on substance.

It's a substantive question.

I doubt that you understood all of that.

Do you see what I mean?

Yeah, I'm not going to play that game with Henry and others, but not with me.

What you going to ask about that?

Yes, sir.

This is all personal.

personal stuff on you.

It might be a conversational kind of thing.

You can read it very easily.

It's not a quiz type thing.

You shouldn't take it that way.

You'll have to talk with it for a few minutes before you start taping so that you have

guidance on what you want to say, because she's all excited about this.

She's canceled her vacation in order to do a morning show.

It's a very big thing for her.

It's a morning show for the morning show.

Same thing.

You know, you'll get some different questions, because they won't see you for a longer time.

and give them the same thing and go on and just, whatever they get, they'll run this as their written stuff and it'll run on the radio.

Barbara Walters will run it as an extraordinary air run.

Starting at noon on Saturday.

What time do we do theirs?

We do theirs at 1 a.m. when you finish with Barbara Walters at 5.30.

Now she, we had proposed this to her as a 10-minute.

I think I understood a brief thing, and she said that.

She said she'd like to go to a house, and we said that, and it must be clearly understood that everything that's taken away from you is going to be ours now.

No.

Not at all.

It's a substance.

It's totally different, and this is life.

And this is on a totally different subject.

You're not in any way scooping it.

Not at all.

That said, I'm standing for 930, but I want this to be about women.

Do you understand?

That's right.

It's clearly about sexism, sexism, sexism, men, women, daughters, grown women, and politics, you know.

Purely personal, kind of.

And that's understood.

There's no question at all on that.

I told you I did that long interview that they were going to use in this U.S. convention.

No, Washington.

Washington, yeah.

I got a letter from Matt Storm written, and he says, I think I should inform you that having completed the first draft of my piece for the Washington Monthly, it apparently became evident to them that you were not going to turn out to be quite the bad guy they were interested in.

Whether that makes me a poor reporter, I don't know.

In any event, I'm confident in selling it elsewhere.

I'll let you know if I do.

They rejected the story.

Because it was favorable.

I'm going to use this letter.

What is the negative?

There's basically a negative.

Not completely.

Obviously, it's a favorable story on me and the president.

It's not anything that was in the interest of them.

They turned it down.

I said, Ray, not a chance, not a chance.

Don't you agree?

Yeah.

That's the thing.

Ray just honestly believes stuff.

He was an honest press guy, you know, himself.

And he sat there when a guy that he didn't agree with came through for something good, he probably wrote a good article.

Yeah.

Other people go at it the same way.

There are probably four or five in the world who did that stuff.

Well, there are quite a few, but...

I mean, not that the editorials are better, they're actually about 10%, but the ratio is just, I mean, that's one of the reasons why, in this term, he's not really the best we can have, because he is so trusting of the press.

Thanks as well.

It's a game.

You've just got to always figure out how do you get around, how do you get out of that, how do you leap out of the way.

I guess your hope springs eternal.

He's got to, you know, come around the sun.

It's like when Keogh was...

He is not soft.

He's really close to the sun.

I would say...

What do you think?

Sure.

I think those medics hurt him.

What do you think?

Well, they have some effect sometimes.

It's obvious because some of the things you get, you get a reaction.

Look, I found yesterday, I wanted to tell it to some, that I had a check with the captain, and I was flying him around, but I never heard from this man, David, and I just don't know what we heard.

He was using it this weekend, for example.

I'm not going to be there.

It's an ideal time for somebody to go out and get those two tabs and rearrange everybody to use it.

Well, I have not been calling them when you don't use it, although...

They have requests.

Well, they, they, well, screw the Volpe thing.

I mean, that's just, Volpe came in and said, I've had my name, and he says, I've been in, but they've never let me use it again.

And of course, he wants 24 people or something.

He wants 24 people, and he wants to go on a weekend, and the weekends he picks are the, you know, 4th of July or something, when you're going to be there.

Well, now, first, I'll just say this.

One thing I do want to do, the editors have never been in.

I want you to pick a time.

The next time we know that we're going to be out of town, call the ambulance and say they can have the whole place, you know.

Just let them have it.

That is the right thing to do.

Try to do it this weekend.

No, they can't do it this weekend.

He's good.

He told me.

if you would like to go and leave the grandchildren for the rest.

And this weekend, I'm worried that Dan could have time to have somebody go up there.

Not a member of the staff.

I don't think any staff member that needs to come home today to go.

I mean, they're all feeling pretty good.

But let the out-of-cabin people that haven't been there, I mean, why don't you get stupid Opie up there now?

I mean, I don't know.

Okay, well, you make the calls.

I made them the one time you mentioned it.

I went to everyone, Dick Helms and even the major agencies, and they all, of course, appreciated it.

Well, I understand.

You've got a perfect time for this week, as it turns out.

I'm going to be there every two weekends.

and say, would you like to?

I had two go.

They did.

I mean, you got two, and you could take a double-up and say, they've got these two cabins.

Of course, what we had, and his idea was so crazy that he said, look, did I, he said, they're only going through 24, and I said, John, I think so.

I said, yeah.

He wants to take care of his whole goddamn staff up there or something.

Well, see, a number of them have done that.

And that place gets used like it's never been used in history.

And we can't be like we're not, you know, not what I believe.

I can't go beyond that.

What I mean is I don't want a personal championship.

Well, there's a limit because of the staff.

Well, the staff is a good thing.

They can pick their team up and have a conversation.

They'll set an archive up there and get both of you out of the way.

Who else is not?

When you check this, do you have a file that's true to use?

The aides do have a file.

Why don't you get a file that's true to use as a couple?

Yes, sir.

See, he has been there, but he's never been there.

He's been there with the people, but he has never been there by himself.

And I just as a family, it just might be that, say, for example, Mitchell, I'd like to go with Mrs. Mitchell by himself one time.

I'll keep that just the way I'm keeping invitations.

I've been keeping social invitations.

Who's doing this?

Hughes?

Fine, fine, that's good.

I've got to let him continue.

Tell him to run the list.

Well, but I can keep the record.

I said we'd call it on the cabin.

I'd like to get it.

I don't want the crybabies.

Just remember Rumsfeld's theory on opium.

If you had opium every weekend at Camp David, he'd bitch because you didn't let him stay a little Monday.

If he hasn't until Monday, he'd say, well, why didn't you climb down in your helicopter so you could get to work on time?

Is that right?

There's just no way.

There's just sponge there that just soaks up everything you put on the plate.

On anything.

On invitations, bringing people along, strapping.

I know he complains about, you know, not being invited to anything he's not invited to.

Is that right?

He is unbelievable.

And you should not, you just got to have a deaf ear on that.

Don't let him serve you.

All right.

Don't worry about it.

All right.

Don't bother him.

Well, no, if he hasn't been there once, get him up there once, so the guy can't say he's never been there.

They say that he can go this weekend.

If he wants, he says, well, I'm sorry, I can't go this weekend.

She says, all right, that's all right.

I'm sorry, but the president was using another weekend.

See, the thing here, if you push it too much, is that then they get in the way of your use of it.

I have a whole purpose again, David.

As soon as you ever get to the vote, like some days, for example, I might decide not to go to Florida, which I have done.

That's nice.

And then somebody's up there and I'm choked up.

That's exactly why I can't have that.

That's right.

And here the show moves.

And that's the reason they hold it up until it's locked.

But this weekend is free up there.

You are going to see it.

He said, this weekend's a perfect week.

This is what it really is for that.

This weekend, I really offer to get a couple of them up there.

Now, of course, they're all going to the gridiron.

He said, well, maybe he's going to the gridiron.

But then they just go out and spend one night.

I go to spend one night.

They go out Friday and spend the night and come back the Saturday night.

A little bit of the president life side of it.

We recommend it.

John Connery, really enjoyed his week.

I was just kidding.

He really did.

A lot of rest.

Well, there aren't a hell of a lot.

There isn't much.

They're during the week, and we tell them to use it during the week.

And they do.

That's when they have these departmental conference.

Why don't you call back and say that the president called it, and we haven't, but the really best time would be to go out and hear about it.

Isn't there a time when you ought to be able to spend time in April?

So I know in spring, I mean in April, when is our next board meeting going to happen?

First, second, third, fourth, fifth, and so on.

So it's really fun.

You've been known to change your mind.

Yeah.

That'd be a pretty good time.

I'd like to offer him that.

All right, sir.

It was a chap, that son of a bitch, every chance I gave him.

Obviously, he was at dinner last night, so he probably had a chance.

I bet the name of the list would be in there.

Do you know that?

Black sensitivity or any kind of sensitivity.

Oh, yeah, he debased himself into doing something like that.

Yeah, well, the governor's dinner, he was terrible at that.

This guy called six times, and he called me.

Cheap two-bit Massachusetts politician.

That's what it is.

That's how he got to be governor.

Sure, he wasn't qualified, but he got to be governor because he kept pushing.

Well, we ought to get him up there and get him out.

Henry, Kessler wants to stay for 10 hours, according to Steve.

All right.

Give him the sign and hold it for me.

It's a little bit better.

Oh, call him on it.

Spell.

Devotee.

I can't even say it this bad.

I should have called him.

I couldn't pronounce it at all.

I didn't call him.

Now, as I was starting all day, I wanted to read that, and he says, you know, he says, if I could, if I could only have that, if I could have our home, if I could have the sand, if I could have the oysters with the sand, if I could have that, if I could have that, it could be helpful.

All right.

He just has no, he's no class.

You know, I was just saying to Alex, when you add it all up, that Joe is a Massachusetts politician, that's obviously the only way you've got to be governor, is by pushing because he sure doesn't have the qualification.

That's how he succeeded in business, too, with the stuff that he and those guys planned.

And this ability, his worthlessness, drives him to get you somewhere.

He's got a tremendous drive.

Well, the dinner went very well.

It was a great experience.

John said that's a very good thing to do.

Very low-key.

But you would enjoy that, wouldn't you?

I mean, I just think, you know, I really almost think of Bokey, the thing to do is to get him in for a half hour and then throw his ass out.

But sometimes, put it down, I don't know what to do.

But not now.

I mean, that's good, but, you know, it's unbelievable.

You know, such a poor manners.

That's such a gross manners for him to raise such a question about, I'd like to see you, but nobody else would do that, you know.

I think you're right, I think I hate you.

Of course, on the other hand, you sent a piece for us getting her something to do with us.

It's important what you're doing.

But you see, the difficulty is, and I know it well,

I wonder if we should do much of it.

I think it's better just to get him in and talk to him.

What do you think?

Michael Falker is better?

I think this thing you're doing, this round with having got them all in for a cozy dinner.

And Michael Falker.

It is worthwhile talking to him.

I had a chance to talk to John.

I didn't see John now.

He's got some strong views on the textiles thing.

Very different from George Holtz's.

I can't be pushed too strong in that direction.

And so I got everyone.

And I wouldn't be killed otherwise.

But we can't allow it to obsess us.

I think actually we're conducting, I think we're conducting ourselves not that well.

I think, you know what I mean?

Since the election, we've not had the press conference, the conversation, so they didn't want to do it again.

Well, on this case, it has not done as much as what you're after.

There has to be a continuing effect.

There has to be a building.

Sure.

I think that, though, the idea of erosion and people don't like it,

That is due to the two things.

The one thing I was concerned of, as I read the news center, was the almost unanimous opinion of the news, of the financial editors, and the confidence factor.

Now, some way or other, I don't know if I crack it.

I pardon Mr. Burns.

Mr. Burns is the bastard here.

Mr. Burns is getting that word out too much.

And there's got to be some kind of confidence that then the stock market keeps banging up.

And I saw it sunk up a little again yesterday.

I had another huge day.

I saw it.

It went through 900 yesterday during the day.

But if it didn't, if it ended over 900, I want to call my advisor.

If it didn't close over 900, it might today.

It'll probably go off today.

Today's Thursday.

No, Tuesday.

Wednesday.

What is your feeling as to whether, in my mind, my feeling is that as we look at this situation, that it's our coming out after the conversation, basically 60, this is what we were.

I think Gallup's 76 as well.

I think actually we were probably, I think our figure was pretty close, don't you think so?

Because we had 18-year-olds in it, and also we put it in there.

All right.

Coming out at basically 60 and dropped down.

I guess it's, I think it's basically like 50, basically 50, 48, 49, 50, 51, and then it's all part of that.

But what we have in May, I think it's a, I think that the drop the year before was due primarily to the economy.

There's no question about that.

The economy was just sliding like hell, if you recall.

And the war wasn't all that bad.

The Laotian thing began to creak up, but it didn't get bad until March.

Huh?

What?

Last year.

No, last year, this time.

We were going down at this time, but then we started back up.

Not until after Cambodia.

Not until after Cambodia, sir.

Not until then, sir.

Remember, we went down in the 35, around that bank.

Now, what did we start with?

A lower threshold.

The question is how much that we really wasted in terms of the opportunity.

The question I raise on all of this is whether or not a settle sets in on a precedent, whether or not people just, in other words, you just cross your threshold and people either have confidence or they don't.

You know, like the Kennedy people felt that after he'd been in his third year that he might not make it the next time, even though he was still

I think that the drop the year before was due primarily to the economy.

There's no question about that.

The economy was just sliding like hell, if you recall.

And the war wasn't all that bad.

The Laotian thing began to creak up, but it didn't get bad until March.

What?

Last year.

No, last year, this time.

We were going down at this time, but then we started back up.

Not until, not until we hit Cambodian.

After Cambodian, not until we hit Cambodian, sir.

Not until then, sir.

Remember, we went down to 55, around that bank.

Now, what if we start with a lower threshold?

The question is, how much have we really wasted in terms of the opportunity?

The question I raise on callback is whether or not

A settle sets in on a precedent, whether or not people just, in other words, you just cross your threshold and they, people either have confidence or they don't.

You know, like the Kennedy people felt that after he'd been in his third year that he might not make it the next time.

And even though he was still 55, 57 in the polls back in the summer of 19, just before he went to Dallas.

Senator Kincaid gets caught.

Well, boy, this is pretty good.

It was not bad, unless it's high as it had been.

But nevertheless, over him it was an error because he had been so many times.

Right.

And therefore, it has some effect on people.

The question is, really, did he have this question?

And it really relates to my use of time.

whether it was really possible.

I know that they're supposed to be saying, well, we've got to try it anyway, with all this Mickey Mouse stuff, you know, the man and all that sort of thing.

But I just wondered if that's what you're talking about, that it was a fatalistic thing.

God damn it, it's not working.

It's not working.

That's what it should come down to.

I guess one.

That's my point.

You should look at it that way.

I don't think we should.

Do you really think, though, looking at it from your standpoint, you people, if you really should try to...

I was pressing our guys too hard.

You know, we got Buchanan and all these recruiter guys.

Hell, I don't know what the hell else we're here for.

I don't know.

Maybe we don't need somebody.

How many do you want here?

No, I think maybe we don't need so many, but maybe, you know, why not, it's like a pipe in the water, why not do everything that might do some good?

Do you have a vision for this?

Sure.

I've given the will.

I think, and I think we...

I think it's terribly important that you be fatalistic about it and not worry about it at all.

And I just want to recall a lot of the staff, whether or not you don't get it.

I mean, the staff, I think Tommy's point is absolutely right.

What you need is a staff recognition of what they're here to do.

And you've got a lot of dangerous people.

They're very intelligent, they're very dedicated, and they work hard.

The problem is, what are they devoting that ability and capability to?

Now, the problem is that what they're devoting it to is, and it's right that they devote some of it to, is in developing programs, is in solving problems, is in putting on fires, is in keeping the government running smoothly and trying to make it run more smoothly.

They were very happy up to now, and it's not their fault.

It's the kind of people in the businesses that they ran.

They had advertising departments, and they never thought about advertising their products.

They were lawyers.

They weren't allowed advertising.

That's right.

So they didn't pay any attention to something.

None of them, with a couple exceptions, are politicians.

The ones you've had, that are politicians, Moynihan and McConnell, have seen just the other side of it completely.

And I think we've got to see the other side of it.

I'm not going to make a ruckus about their politics.

Not in the same sense as my mom.

First of all, because they're Republicans.

Republicans and politicians are different camps.

Second, because they're really not both their own man.

And, of course, they're not national.

You know, that's your economy.

You might have a whole thing nationally.

It's been difficult for Rumsfeld to manage to get out of the way over there, I think.

Mitch has more of a problem in that he's kind of this overriding obsession of his own political career.

Rumsfeld has an overriding confusion on his own political career.

Bob knows what he wants in general, but he doesn't.

I'm sure Ronnie read that.

Right, he sent it to me.

an article from Fortune.

Did you read that one?

Politics?

It's an interesting piece, Fortune, and it goes through the cycles and where the day of the future is.

And they did all the cycle theories in about six different cycles, and all of them put them that we are at the stage in three cycles, I guess.

We're at the same stage as the Wilson stage of that cycle, which had been kicked off first.

Cycle first was started at Union, and the cycle was kicked off by Lincoln, and then third by FDR.

But Wilson was at the end of the Lincoln cycle, I guess it was not Lincoln.

And we're at the end of some cycle.

Well, he says, you are like Wilson.

You're at the interface of a cycle.

The cycle we're in now is the social welfare cycle that Roosevelt kicked off.

And he said, we're at the end of that cycle.

The question is, and we'll know this for 20 years, whether this is the end of that cycle or the beginning of a new cycle.

And he said, you are, as Wilson was,

But Jan is slightly looking both ways.

You're partly finishing that cycle and you're partly starting the new cycle.

And what happens in the next five or six years is going to be .

But the thing he concludes, I think it's his conclusion, he then says, who's going to bring about the new cycle?

Is it the Democratic Party?

Is it structured now?

His answer is no, for a lot of reasons.

Is it the Republican Party?

Is it structured now?

No, for a lot of reasons.

It's a coalition of Republicans and Southern Democrats, quite possibly, except that's a conservative coalition, and conservatives have never started a food cycle by inherently conservatives.

No, it's going to end rightly.

I don't know.

And then, but what he concludes is that maybe the...

the catalytic force that does it is the liberal Republican.

And listen, that's the mentality.

It doesn't go that far, not as far as it is now, but something short of that.

It could rip on like the Republican.

And so somewhere sitting in one of the back roads of Congress or in one of the sub-secretary offices in the government is probably the man that will be the next one.

I'm sure a guy like him still reads that and says, by goodness, you're out of your mind.

I don't think it's wrong to stop.

But I'm sure nobody's peers ever did it to me.

To God, either.

No, that's right.

Nobody can tell who's going to be trusted to him at a certain time.

smoking as a contract.

And there's serious problems on the bottom.

Yeah, so is bulking.

Oh, bulking, sir.

Bulking cannot be overcome.

Agnes couldn't.

Agnes at least got a stash of bulking.

It just doesn't happen.

You know that.

Oh, he's got a straw.

That's the last thing you want in a vice president.

That was one way to cut that back.

Really, you know, that's just a second.

Oh, he's pushing that.

I mean, it's a long time.

I don't like it.

We don't, as I said, let's not sit around and psychoanalyze everything.

I think that we've done this job, we've been through all this, but I just wonder if, I don't want you to feel it because we've had this meeting with your staff.

Maybe that exercise actually has worked well.

I'm not sure.

It makes a difference.

It makes a difference for the reason that we live in a PR world.

And the PR, well this is what they said, the way they had left the morning thing is a pretty typical example.

If they could take that and build that into an enormous, now what the hell, a non-lady?

Yeah, you can't take a building, but I do think they're a little bit harder to trust people and others ought to be able to counter that just a little better, I don't know, maybe, maybe not.

You can't push it.

They're going to write it down.

Well, the immediate report on it didn't come out well.

What was it that set off the disagreement?

Yeah, and they got all excited because it did, there was a valid thing there.

As soon as they get this part, any little wedge didn't get a hook on it.

They hardly had a hook.

A combination of hardhats, barbers, and suits.

Right.

to give them a new lease on life and trying to figure out a way to get at us.

And there was enough validity to it that they could build it way out of proportion.

I think we gotta take it seriously.

I think it's one we gotta, I agree, we gotta not just laugh off because that kind of thing can build up.

So you mean the idea that the idea can be built up that we're unpopular and far-fetched?

Yeah.

You know, all these, rather than the old combination of the poor and the black and the young, but now you've got the middle income and the white and the...

And of course, none of these combinations are ever quite the way they say.

It's also a question of 5% to 5% to 10% annual option, except the gold will never be in that space.

So we've got to figure out who our 5% is.

Yes, we also have to remember the gradations we've been talking about.

And we've got to be sure to hang on to our basics.

That's what I do.

farm folk, suburbs, property taxpayers, the rational black in the South.

I'm curious, though, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, that, uh,

That's what really happens, you know.

Yeah, they talk, you know, over there they'll say, you know, he was pretty deepish, wasn't he?

Well, we actually come out of a John Hunt's walk of time, too.

He's the kind that does that sort of little thing.

We don't worry about it.

We just pretend to whack right away.

So with Bob, it's amazing which memory you, I'll tell you, you fought on that battle.

But that's why we've got to keep fighting.

That's why I just don't think there's any merit to be fatalistic.

To have somebody prepare what they think a good point should be made about the submission and the girls and so forth.

Well, we did that.

Now, who's got the food?

Who can you put on that?

Take more.

You know, just give me some probably points on that so that I can...

I want to keep thoughts that I can put on the page, let it go back and read, but Jessamyn's article, for example, thinks it could be underscored.

See my point?

I say that it becomes new.

That would be very helpful to have.

I should like to have that incidentally.

So that I can have it on the way back to Williamsburg.

I'm not going to have it on the way back to Williamsburg.

But I can do that and get some of it tonight.

But it would be better if I had it, let's see, it's not, well, they can do it exactly by 12.

See, so at 6 o'clock, if you think they'll have it by that time, they can get some, they can get some other hours in afterwards.

So that they have money and time.

Yes, that's right.

I don't want them to spend the afternoon on it anyway.

Just say, let's say that I would like it by 7.30.

I won't expect anything because I'm tied up in the southern outer streets.

It's important to 7.30.

I've got to work with the parish in that.

Yeah?

So how can I call them to say that you were interviewed?

in the times of sinless unpretentious profound.

Six other exalted adjectives.

He read it.

Oh, he... Nobody else reads it.

Wait a minute, Bob.

We've got to tell Henry something.

Henry now knows.

We've got Henry to tell some of these other clowns.

Some of them are, as you were calling me, with Christ.

Oh, incidentally, too, I want you to read the Newport Street chapter in the secret.

When it gets over, it'll be over at 3 o'clock.

Would you get a speech for Henry?

I want to get a speech.

It's a very, I think it's a very warm speech about young people who have served in their countries and the rest of the world.

I want you to read it in style.

I mean, do you think there's something in it that doesn't fit on a, it's practically on the road.

Go ahead and tell them what you have on this list.

I'll use you because we've got a shirt.

I get the rank price of Neil Cook, the speechwriter.

We'll talk about the Newport speech.

I'll tell you how that speech came about.

I called Cook.

It's not a big deal.

I said, look, I've got to speak for 15 minutes and do this graduation.

I said, it's not a big deal.

And I said,

So I talked to him about that.

That's it.

He's not screaming.

So I talked to him.

I said, these are some of the thoughts that you could put into it.

So he gave me a, you know, two thousand word speech.

And it was good, very good.

And then he came in today to the Hall of the Cross, and so forth and so on.

And then he came in there and quite recently, he said, well, actually, we're going to have to redo the speech because you covered all the same material that you covered with me on Sunday.

You covered it in your Sulzberger interview.

So it's all covered in the New York Times.

So we can't use it for the speech.

As if anybody who hears the speech is going to read the New York Times.

Exactly.

Anybody.

And I said, I said, you know, that doesn't make any difference.

Nobody reads the New York Times.

Both of those guys are my fellows in the time.

Anybody who reads the New York Times will necessarily remember.

The audience, the audience of Newport will not read it.

No problem.

But beyond that, tomorrow morning, the television audience will be there, the newspaper audience will be there, the press here will be there.

You see, that's the other thing where I've been taken by the press that they've seen, so they'll come.

That's the problem.

They'll get up there and it's right there.

That'll cut everything out of the box because I'm going to withdraw his nomination today unless it's denied.

Okay, I did not get the question so I did not knock it out of the box.

Yes, sir

With CBS?

Isn't that who it is?

Yes.

All right.

Now, first of all, I have never met the son of a bitch.

I shook his hand once.

Once in my life.

I've talked to Fletcher this morning.

I know.

But I just want to be clear with you that he has never talked to anybody.

I have never talked to a scientist about ADM.

I have never indicated, never, that I have any doubts about ADM.

Right.

I have always said everything to the contrary.

And I'm not going to have the new director of NASA at that good job not meeting his flat.

Now, what did he tell you this morning?

He said that he had not discussed ABM.

He said that he has no reason.

He doesn't bat me.

He's not only not discussed it, he hasn't talked to me.

Not only in terms of discussing it with you, but he said, and I have a quote from him, which is that there's no reason at all why he does not support the current ABM program, he says.

He doesn't disagree with it at all.

And that he did not convey that to anyone.

Why doesn't he support it then?

Well, he said it.

I mean, can't he just say that?

Yeah, he just wanted to say that in his testimony today when he said it.

Did he?

Yes.

But he does not disagree with the ABN.

That isn't what Andrew said.

Andrew said, why doesn't he support it?

Yeah.

That's different than not disagreeing.

Some of it is better to get on his ass and say, I support the ABN program.

He doesn't say that.

Or I would throw the nomination to Sacramento, and I mean it.

We're going to get tougher on this place.

The other thing is that I'm damn sure you know him.

Yes, sir.

All right.

That's to be locked down.

That is totally false.

How can you do it?

Well, I have a client to call CPS.

Dixon, I have a client to call.

Tell him first.

This is totally not how you do it.

Totally inaccurate.

It's totally false.

And that there is absolutely not a grain of truth.

One, that I have never discussed it with Fletcher at all.

Second, don't defend Fletcher's position.

Fletcher says that Fletcher is not a citizen.

The main thing is whether or not he's a citizen.

This is not his view.

He's never expressed his view to Fletcher or anybody else.

But they're on a bad wicket, and the President personally, if it is not taken out on tonight's news, I am personally going to take it on Williamson tomorrow.

I've got to say, McGrath, you've got to begin to handle these guys on your own.

Yes, sir.

You don't realize the importance of this.

This is a big fight, McGrath.

ABM, you cannot have the president's position that I have black economy.

It affects our dealings with the Russians.

It affects our dealings with the Congress.

Don't you realize the importance of this, sir?

We've just had new information on these stamps, these SA-5s, of which the Russians have 5,000.

Now it turns out they do have an ABM capability.

I don't understand why I called back and he didn't realize the importance of this.

Don't you realize the importance of that goddamn statement?

Yes, sir.

That's why.

He quotes the president.

Why?

I didn't want to raise it in the briefing because it would tend to expand the story.

Why not expand it?

I want you to go out and call the president right now.

I want you to imagine this.

I want the story expanded.

And I'll take this now.

This is a totally false story in all respects.

First, the president has never, the president has never discussed ABM with Fletcher.

Or with any other, no, no, no, with Fletcher.

He has never discussed ABM with Fletcher.

The president's only meeting with Fletcher.

was when he took his hand and put this down.

Now, I've only met the son of a bitch once in my life, and I don't like him either.

When I met him the afternoon after dinner, he received one.

So we're going to knock him right out of the box.

The third thing is, the president has never expressed to anybody any doubt

about the, this is totally wrong, third, and that the CBS was completely wrong.

I want you to knock it right out of the box.

Yes, sir.

All right, that's what they're doing.

Can I ask you one other thing?

Sure, sure.

I was at a Sulzberger event this morning.

I was at a Sulzberger event in Texas.

I assume I can say this .

That was an honorary interview.

What do they do with honorary interviews?

I had one with Stuart Alsop and I had one with Dick Willis.

But my point is, what's your problem then?

Well, they want... See, because Salsberger not only wrote a story on Reagan's question, but then the New York Times ran an excerpt's notes

Well, and they will answer his notes when I ask him a question.

And they just run it as a story, just like any interview.

I don't judge.

What Ron wants to say to the President is that the President is quoted accurately.

Now, the point that I make is that the President, if he read the story, of course he did.

I didn't.

I did not.

I never asked to edit the text.

I never asked anyone to submit the text to me for editing.

And I would say that in general, this reflects the substance of the interview, that's all.

But it's not something that I want any indication that I read about it.

I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to.

Have you got a difference?

Are you lying?

Well, if I say in general, it reflects the substance of the interview.

See, what they're talking about is the portion that Sulzberger wrote, so you hear it as a text.

It seems to me that is not to us to release.

That's up to the New York Times.

Well, how can you say it wasn't on the record interview?

And it's obviously, that's right, that's Sulzberger's report.

The White House doesn't verify or deny the extract report.

It's on the record interview.

No, sir.

There was no transcript.

There was no recording.

He made notes.

And that's it.

It was an on-the-record interview.

And I say, is there anything that you would not stand by in that?

Just say, you know, I'm not going to, I just, we just do a comment.

We have, the President has interviews with numbers of reporters.

So we're starting to think that, yeah, that was all on-the-record.

You remember?

Did they ask you to verify that?

No.

Same thing.

Because they re-rent that.

They rent all kinds of stuff.

That's right.

It's on the record.

It's like any on-the-record interview.

Just say, just establish the rule that if you have an on-the-record interview, we're not going to say no use.

What they want is to use it on their own.

Right.

No, sir.

Use it as... No.

Well, my point is that's exactly right.

It's an on-the-record interview, just like the other interviews that he's had at least...

Excuse me.

It doesn't differ between reporters.

It's an on-the-record interview.

It doesn't... Do you know anything that's wrong or right about it?

It's an on-the-record interview.

That's all.

Is it?

What, Marty, would you like to say?

I don't know, sir.

The change, if you make it authorized, is still printed as a presidential statement.

Which is not what I will allow.

See, I'm not going to issue a presidential statement to a reporter.

This is an on-the-record interview.

And frankly, the president does not put it this way.

The president always follows the policy, as the interview states, of never editing.

but a reporter reports, and he will not comment on the reporter's reports.

That's the common thing, it's the on-the-rack interview and comments.

As far as reporters concern, that's it.

Why don't you just lay it right there.

I've seen a reason for you to get into the business of making a news story on it from here, you see.

Well, except it's a good story, and from the viewpoint of, from our viewpoint, it's good to get that, but get it used.

And nobody's going to go and deep back up then and say that there is no, you know, I would say there's nothing in this as there was in the worst form.

I'd throw into that too.

Just like the worst form is gone more in this one.

I think you're better off with your position.

I just leave it just where the President does.

He never edits.

I think the idea that I don't edit, that the President never edits.

And it's up to the reporter to reflect.

What was your point?

That's all.

That's enough.

But I want you to hit CBS for that.

I want it because of the importance of the issue.

Yes, sir.

And I just say that.

Just knock it right out of the box.

Yes, sir.

Don't you think it should be in there?

I think... You saw the story.

Oh, yeah.

I think Fletcher should hit it, frankly.

Oh, I thought that your client was talking to Fletcher, and we'll talk to him again.

He tested positive.

The White House should not get out, too.

That's right.

We ought to make sure that...

I want to take it on specifically, and I want to discredit Fletcher right before he starts his job, too, for being such an ass.

He's undoubtedly said something here.

I know these Sniders.

thing to do personally.

I have never discussed it with him.

I have met him once in a receiving line at the NASA dinner in which we had no discussion of substance whatever.

Yes, sir.

Let's put it right.

Well, does that make us look good?

Why?

Okay.

Well, to appoint a NASA director.

No, seriously.

I don't think that's what I should do.

That's right.

But you can say you've never discussed it with him.

But I can say the person's never talked about me.

We've never had one word of discussion.

It's got nothing to do with this.

I've never had any discussion at any time with him.

Or with any other people from NASA about the idea.

Okay.

I agree.

He probably did something.

It wasn't such something.

The scientists are always kissing.

Brown doesn't each other.

You know what this is.

But Joe Alvarado, he has such a time, I mean, you know, he gets out there, he's pressing people back, he puts shit on them, and I don't know how he takes it.

Having a little trouble.

He gets a problem.

His problem is that he gets, he gets the impression, well, we give something to them, and then we give it to you, and then other press men are mad.

Of course they are.

That's why we did it.

What the Christ is he thinking if we did it?

I don't think he's ready for that.

Huh?

Oh, yeah.

That's the, they're back where they all are.

What I told Alsop was that if he writes about it, what he should say is that the most remarkable thing about it is

That you did this without any staff assistance whatsoever.

No, President.

That no one, that I did not give you one line of suggestions of even topics to cover.

Because I saw that the executive was not present.

I would say that the president, in joke, he writes something that he can say, and you can tell stewards, too.

The interesting thing about this president is that he is one of the few who sees a press man alone.

I saw him alone.

And I saw, you know, I saw Dicey Joe alone.

And I saw this guy alone.

Brother, not only did you see them alone, but yourself, I mean, I've heard a lot more.

But the content of the interview was entirely your own.

There wasn't one even suggestion for topics to cover.

And I don't know any president who's done that.

What was the thing your wife liked?

Well, he said he liked his weave, his modesty, his grasp.

He said we haven't had a president who has this sensitivity.

in foreign policy in his lifetime, in fact.

All he was really, he called and he was going on and on.

I agree, I agree.

And he initiated, no, I thought I agreed with that.

I just talked about it.

I talked to him the way I talked to everybody else around me.

That's the only reason I did it for him.

It's very simple.

The New York Times, Henry, has been disgraceful in its coverage of our foreign policy agenda.

That's right.

But Eastman and Cy Salzberger has been fighting a very lonely battle against Oaks and Preston on foreign policy.

And so I thought that I read it to screw the other rest of the New York Times, but that's all it was to do.

But I thought you think it was right.

I think it was right and I think it was enormously effective.

And I'm getting this word now to a lot of the press.

Evans and Novak are doing a book about you, and I met with them yesterday.

I think it won't be so unfavorable.

Why should we call McNamara?

I, uh, I don't, I don't ever know him.

Bob, I think I'll call him Mr. McNamara.

What's your name?

I don't know.

Don't be close.

No, you can call him Mr. McNamara.

But if you could add a measure, Andrew, to know how much you appreciate this.

Well, I say appreciate the conversation you've had with Andrew.

How's that?

That would be very helpful.

Because he's really been very, very helpful also with the other Democrats.

And he hasn't said a word publicly yet, sir.

I was at a dinner with him at Joe Alsop's house where Pritchie attacked you on Lowe's and he nearly tore into pieces.

John Freeman.

Good morning.

That's me.

I talked to Bill this morning.

They were going all out for a confrontation with Israel.

That was good.

That was partly a result of the meeting.

I talked to him after the meeting.

And also, Helms was very upset by the meeting because he said we were going to head into the toughest confrontation without any prospect of success.

So Bill now agrees with my view, which is

to let the Suez thing run at least for a week or so, and then see where we are with that before we go back to the...

I think these little notes... Oh, they're very good.

Very good.

That means that... McNamara has it in his head that you're thinking of displacing him.

And he thinks that undercuts his position.

I told him I'd never heard of it.

And that's what I'm trying to do.

He told me in newsletters, in some fact newsletters, saying that you were keeping Kennedy, David Kennedy, in reserve to replace him when his term was up.

When's his term up?

in 73, and he said that he said that it'd be bad to have this political office, and if you wanted him out, he'd leave without the end of his term.

But he didn't think that was it.

He's doing an excellent job, and he's been more help to you there.

He and Freeman were the only two liberals in town who consistently supported you.

Well, I've got another bike around this way.

Freeman is now head of the private television camera.

The, uh, one of the three channels in England.

He's chairman of the board of chief executive officers.

He just got the job.

He, uh, talked to him this morning.

He said he wants to send you his warmest regard and high respect.

We're having a...

Wonderful.

You'll love that.

So getting back to the interview, I'll tell you, uh, with, with, uh...

Oh, exactly.

That's right.

Well, I know, but we don't believe that he is the New York Times.

A lot of people don't realize that he is in a hell of a fight with those.

You know that.

Oh, yeah.

So...

So the average person reading it, the average person reading it, even the average intellectual reading the Times, will think that the Times, you know, is your brother.

Now, what I was trying to do here, people with two audiences, one of the Times audiences, they'll say Saul Stricker writes it, so that's good.

So maybe the Times thinks better of us.

Second, it does something else.

It just eats the ass out of Scotty Reston and those guys.

Oh my God, so, but I don't know, what I'll tell you, the way it happened, he came in,

And he said, you know, when we met, I saw him a year ago, he said, what were your goals, what was your goals for the country?

I said, I wonder if you would talk about, we had about 18 questions that I asked.

I just proceeded to talk for 30 minutes about any question.

I said, well, I said, just let me tell you what I want to see happen.

And I just talked to him, like we always talk here.

And he just sat there and took notes.

And

So it came out.

It came out only because he actually reflected what I was really trying to say.

And Alsop was pleased with it.

Alsop was ecstatic about it.

Because of the tone.

Because of the tone and, of course, the substance.

He totally agreed with the substance of the sweep and what you said about the importance of Southeast Asia and what you said about your conversation with Mrs. Mayer.

Well, he was really, he thought it was one of the most profound and sensitive statements.

Did he get all that in?

All those things?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, no, he had the whole...

I liked it very much.

But as I was telling you, Evan and Novak are doing a book.

And they talked to me yesterday and they said, now, how has the president changed in the last few years of foreign policy?

And I said, you know, the remarkable thing is how little he's changed.

He had a very well-developed philosophy when he came here.

And he's implementing it.

He's, of course, everybody learns in the job about the bureaucracy and how to maneuver it.

But on substance,

He's doing what he came here to do.

And they said they believe now that they've watched it, and that's right.

The thing about it is you read the World Report, and also they should go back then and read the piece that we did for Foreign Affairs.

That's what I told them.

The Green Guam Conference.

I told them.

And see that it's all part of the piece.

I told them.

And also the thing over there at...

all part of a piece.

And then the other thing that you might fill them in on is that, you know, you might, and I don't mind your cooperating with me all the way on a thing like this, say I, myself, because they're, you know, play their own games.

See, they write one on me, one on anybody else, but you could, you could fill them in on that.

I went through your trips with them, I said, now, and I gave them a few vignettes here and there to make it more personal.

And what the impact you had on the leaders.

Then they said about Romania, they had heard it was improvised.

I said, I explained to them.

I put it in context of your China policy.

I said you had to establish some principle of how to deal with autonomous communist states, that this had been all part of a peace, long-planned, and I think they're going to do on foreign policy, I don't know what they're going to say on domestic policy.

Oh, what I don't know.

But I spent about two hours with them last evening.

When are they going to come out?

November.

This year?

Yes.

They've got to get it going.

We are having, I can't say that it's a problem, but I think the South Vietnamese want to get out of Laos and do it within the next two weeks.

I've been in touch with Bunker and Abrams, and I said, of course, their military judgment is governing.

But they should just make sure that they do it because that's the reason.

My view is that politically, diplomatically, the North Vietnamese will play this into a big victory if they leave, no matter how they leave.

They leave this quickly.

And that militarily we won't get everything out of this operation.

We'll get the caches, which are important, and the casualties.

But the interruption of supplies, if they could hang in there another three or four weeks, they're not under bad attack right now.

What I think it is, and what Bunker thinks it is, is that you want to have a victory parade in Saigon and use it that way.

But I don't think we should do anything.

I don't think we should force them to stay.

I just want you to be aware of the fact that Abrams is going up to talk to them today and tomorrow.

How is he reporting this to us?

Back-channel?

Back-channel tomorrow.

Yeah, he's telling you to stay?

No, but not to Laird, because Laird has just... Now, one thing Laird has done, which I didn't know, he has put a limit on American support only until April 5th.

And I've told Moro that that's nonsense, that if they want to stay beyond that, you turn the other right side.

That's right, that's what we, that's May 1st.

My view is if they could... You see, it's March 10th now.

Well, it's March 10th now.

It's the beginning of a month and a day, or about 29 days, 30 days.

But I don't think...

I've watched these truck movements.

They haven't really got a stranglehold of these movements until the last few days.

If they could stay, say, another month, until about April 5th or 10th, and then start slowly to withdraw...

then they can't ship any, then the rainy season will prevent any shipment.

As it is now, they can probably make up in April what they lost in March.

I think the strategic gain for us next year is worth some casualties this year.

But we can't insist on it.

No, no, we can't insist on it particularly, Henry, because...

He says when they take a bank, they'll swivel.

Absolutely.

And they'll swivel.

Everybody will swivel.

Well, they're not planning to do it, thank God.

So... What is the situation?

How bad is the building?

Is that really it?

That isn't the reason.

I think it's electoral politics.

I think Pew, and I must tell you honestly, now that I've seen the operation,

The South Vietnamese Army is not as good as we all thought last year.

For example, in the chop operation, now the tree is dead.

They're just moving around.

They are just, wherever the North Vietnamese are, they are not.

I mean, you can see they're moving like crazy, but they're always moving in areas where there are no North Vietnamese in the field.

Why are they coming down to where everybody's facing?

were just, this was all worth doing at all.

We knew they weren't that good.

We knew they were not tentative.

They weren't tentative.

But this is hope.

This is hope for them to be in there and do a little fighting.

And they'll be a lot better.

They're better now.

They're about like the Austrians were in 1915 and 16.

when they were a little bit better than they were when they took the hell out of the meeting in London.

But they aren't worth a damn.

They're not up to the Germans.

The North Vietnamese are up to the Germans.

That's just what it is.

Whatever chance they've got, we gave them this Cambodian love.

But I think now that after this is over, particularly if they could stay through April, we ought to go back to the North Vietnamese and see whether we can't get this thing wound up.

And I think we might, they've extended their deadline now.

They said if, you know, they used to say June 30th this year, now they're saying December 31st.

And another three months they may say July 1st, and then we're in business.

We'll have to make that decision now.

What do we do?

I wonder if I should get more over here and talk a little about this subject.

Well, let's wait till we hear from Abrams.

I want to learn about it, but I've got to know.

I've got to know what Abrams thinks about this.

Well, I have.

Abrams is opposed to it.

No, I know, but I want to know.

Well, who is pushing it then?

Are you getting it from Chu?

Yes.

Chu is what?

What is he directly pushing?

Well, he's pushing a plan for withdrawal.

Starting now?

Starting in about a week.

Starting in three days, in fact.

out of Chippewa and then 10 more days out of other areas.

And going back through since 11 or now?

This isn't so clear to me.

And what will be the argument for it when they're out then?

It gives no argument.

But this, we will know more.

Mora doesn't know any more than he said.

Let me say this.

In this case.

It could work both ways.

I'm sure they're going to leave the beach and claim anything they want.

But nevertheless, if the South Vietnamese do withdraw another, we just have to make the best of it.

Oh, yeah.

And fortunately, we have gotten a couple of good stories.

We've had about three days' run of pretty good stories.

We've had nothing but good stories, that's right.

Yes.

And now they say we've accomplished our objective and we're moving out.

They should go down to 611 or whatever the hell it is and do something like that.

I would prefer they stay.

I'm with you.

But, Henry, I have become completely faithless to give up.

It's not a bad thing.

I don't think they're up to a real man.

And if they're not up to it, I don't want them to take that old man.

I'd rather have him get out and then we're going to get the hell out and hold him free and nothing happens before 1978.

But we'll get the report of Abrams tomorrow.

And we also want to remember that even though we're still in the back of the air, that now we've had bad weather, and it's a pity because now they're pushing a lot of supplies in there.

And the bad weather is going to stay there another three or four days.

Bad weather you mean?

In North Vietnam, it really is bad.

It's even bad in Southern Laos.

so bad that they couldn't even fly helicopters.

And Abrams... Let me say this.

At this point, there is a pretty good damn risk to do it anyway.

If there is that, then the thing to do is to claim a psychological victory.

Oh, if Abrams determines they can't do it, we shouldn't.

Then we must let them get out.

If they're just going through one of their periodic depressions, I think the benefits now, three weeks now, could be worth two months and three months next year.

And to be hit next February with a major offensive there.

I still think your original judgment was right to take the heat now rather than next year, and you have.

And in a way, we've turned the corner.

But I just wanted to prepare you.

We've done what we can.

We've told Abrams that in our judgment that the restriction of April 5th that you had given May 1st, really, that that should not govern him.

But that if, for other military reasons, they have to do it, he's the judge of it, and we don't interfere in that.

And he's not taking a trip up there to assess the situation.

He'll report back tomorrow, and I'll get in touch with you, and Laura will get in touch with you immediately.

How is this working, then?

He reports how, through Laura.

Through Laura.

Back channel.

Right.

Laura knows that he's got to not let that little layer down.

Oh, God.

You know, Jesus, I noticed that you had a...

something in here with the effect of Laird.

Laird put out some story, or he said it probably personally did, the effect that he was pushing for a fashion withdrawal.

Oh, he's playing his usual game again.

He's playing the usual one.

Oh, he's already putting out the stuff.

Just a hot fashion one withdrawal.

Yeah.

Well, that's why we've got to take that withdrawal and handle it our own way.

Now, Henry, it's...

From now on, we've been heroes long enough where now we've just got to revive all that matters to psychology, believe me.

That's right.

All that matters.

And we've given them a hell of a chance.

We've given our guys a chance.

And the North Vietnamese, the South Vietnamese aren't as good.

And despite them being pure, aren't as good as we thought.

I think you're right.

I don't think they're as bad.

Oh, no, they're not his fans.

They're doing pretty well, and whatever chance they've got, they got through what we did for them.

I think we ought to send Hagar next week, and Laird is agreeable to it now, to look at the withdrawal plan, and also to peace.

We know Abrams won't be there till Sunday.

Any time from the weekend on, he should go.

All right, let's get him off right away.

Get him, get him out there.

That's right.

And while he's at it, he ought to hop over to Cambodia and see and talk to Ladd.

Yes, and talk to Ladd.

You see, you know, that, you see, that's been out of the news.

Cambodia crashed every day.

They're losing Cambodia.

And over here, they're going to lose one of us.

It's clear they're not going to.

And the other side is having some problems.

They've got to be having some problems.

Well, the other side is taking to its core.

We've got to just, just pour them on.

They would, that's why I think

The only factor on the troop thing that we ought to keep in mind is how to play it vis-a-vis the chance for a home run this summer.

But I'm getting various schemes together for you, among which some very big ones and some medium ones and some smaller ones, so you can decide.

Well, the idea of the home run being that you give them a small troop withdrawal announcement

Well, a fairly small one.

You're committed to 12,500 a month.

Oh, yes.

That we know what we're going to do.

But give them a fairly small one.

Then meet Lee Doctoe in Paris and say, look, let's separate the military issue.

Let's agree on a total U.S. withdrawal by, say, next July 1st in return for freeing of the prisoners.

Cease fire.

And that's essentially it.

If they release all the prisoners.

And I think it'd be a home run.

It'd be better if we could get the ceasefire through 72.

I think we have to keep a residual force in South Vietnam.

I'm not a reporter.

I don't think the South Vietnamese are... Well, it'd be desirable, but I don't...

I don't think you're going to support it.

It was my career somewhere.

Mr. President, your re-election is really important.

I'm afraid we have too many chips on South Vietnam.

And in my re-election, it's important, let's remember, I've got to get this off our plate.

And if it's important, then Henry, we've got to get it off the plate.

But that's why I think a negotiation would get it off your plate in a way that establishes your dominance.

I would much prefer that.

Because if you sort of dribble out and then you can't really get out completely.

You've got to have a residual force there without a negotiation.

And I think there is now a 50-50 chance that they find that.

They're uncharacteristically shaky right now.

That's why...

But Zhou Enlai, that picture is solely for propaganda, wasn't it?

Oh, yes, but the mere fact that they trot out the Chinese this way, and Zhou Enlai made a speech, which will probably be reported as very tough, but what he said was, if the U.S. expands the war further, then we will do whatever is necessary.

But that means we will not do it now.

I mean, they're really meaning expanding to the north.

That's right.

It's a scary layer of the bombing going on.

Well, I think if this happens, actually the bombing now is militarily very useful, both for the attack they may be planning, but they may not attack so quickly.

They're also repositioning their forces to the north.

They're pulling them actually a little further back, but they're putting them along the route we are planning to go out on.

So they may be, they may have to suddenly be penetrated.

Hmm.

Say they're putting them along the route.

Well, you see their track is going out on Route 914, which is the one that goes through Area 611.

And that's where they're putting their forces.

It actually helps us in the present phase of the operation because the pressure from the south has diminished.

Since the battle on Hill 31, there hasn't been any major North Vietnamese there.

They should have had a hell of a lot of them going home.

They apparently have finally gone in.

There's no doubt they made that happen.

And they're getting a lot of caches.

Are they?

Well, the truth is we are getting them by bombing them, and they are uncovering them.

I mean, they blow up the caches when they find the uncovered caches.

Why wouldn't we batten them by bombing them before they hit when you were bombing all that area?

Well, because we didn't have them so pencil and paper.

Spotted in the ground.

Yeah.

I mean, now we're getting...

We're getting, and we're concentrating it in this area.

But they are getting some of that off.

And they are cutting into the truck traffic now.

They haven't?

No, it has not done it.

They've got nine bulls, back we know.

Oh yeah, but that...

They're all nine.

Nine fourteen.

Well, they're within a hundred yards of nine fourteen now.

For Christ's sake, they haven't got that old thing much to do down there.

Now when they are at 914 at its northern leg, before 234 branches are no more useless things of their own.

It will be useless a year from now, I hope.

So I think we're going to go on a lot of thinking about this.

I agree.

The best way to end this is diplomatically.

I told Lansfield that this morning.

I said, Mike, I mean, I always, you know, put a little care out there.

I said, now I know all of your fellows are pushing for this.

I said, I can't do this.

I can't agree to this.

There's still a chance for a negotiation if we can.

I've got to keep that card.

I can't initiate an advance to get everything we want without negotiations.

That's true.

And so I said, therefore, we're going to continue to push along our own course.

We could get a negotiation to be the thing.

There's a chance for it.

On the other hand, in terms of keeping these bottles in here,

Let me say, remember I told you once before, do not risk Jews' re-election.

Do not risk the South Vietnamese defeat.

Now, if, in other words, even though we know that next year it is true that this is going to guarantee it or something, and maybe if they stay, but if there's a really modest chance of even the South Vietnamese taking a rap, tell them to get the hell out.

When Abrams is up there now to take a look at the situation, I, and he'll make a report.

And then, but actually it's not our decision.

Yes.

We are not pushing them.

All we told them was, in the end, that we are not putting a limit on it in terms of our support.

And I think in terms of victory and defeat and so forth and so on, it's now gone long enough, frankly, that it, you know, because when we, what we're talking about now, it's not four weeks, it'll take two weeks for it to get the hell out.

Well, we have...

It'll take two weeks to get out of there, isn't it?

My point is that we still say, well, and so they've accomplished their objective, you know, they've destroyed the caches, they've done this, and now they're according to plan, they're withdrawing, and there's nothing there.

We can handle the public relations battle easily enough.

In substance, the fact is, we would not have gained this strategic success.

We would have inflicted a defeat on them and a pick-up on them.

Any alternative would have been...

I understand.

But it would have accomplished something.

Oh, yes.

Sounds good.

Second point.

You've got a way...

what you would gain by affecting the strategic defeat upon them by the risk, and it's a very great risk, of any kind of defeat on the South Vietnamese at this point.

That has happened.

It not only has an effect on us here that we screw this thing up, but it also has an effect on Jews' real action.

And so therefore, Henry,

We just got away with those two things.

No question.

Absolutely.

And there is where I think they'll listen very damn carefully to what they have to say.

Oh, no question.

And they appear not pushing them at all.

I'm beginning to think we're not going to get a Russian reply, and they're getting, they're going through one of their tough phases again.

Their tender, for example, was a search across the Atlantic and on the way out, and now they've put it back in.

They're just playing these cheap little games and their general instructions to the party conquerors are to play a hard line on foreign policies.

Is that right?

How do you know?

We've got it through intelligence.

But that's still, I would still recommend that we let salt start and then sometime early in April you just publicly propose

what we had put into the letter to Kosykin, and then let them turn us down.

Well, in your opinion, at the present time, they don't want to sign.

My opinion is that they're so occupied now with the party Congress, that who would, that... Why, isn't it that they're really responsible for all those 700 to get signed us up?

No, I think they have two choices.

Either the guy who, it might have been, well, that might be Wondry's, might also be the fellow who

May Burgess, one of the key figures, whoever it is, may be passionate, thought he might get it to win success and solve before the thing.

Now they may figure that they'd rather have their party Congress first and have him do it afterwards.

Maybe the fact is that his domestic situation isn't so clear so that he wouldn't get the credit for it.

Uh, maybe that's the reason.

When is the party congress?

On the 30th.

For a week.

30th of March?

Yes.

30th of March for a week?

Come here.

And after that, then you might get us on revival.

That's right.

And after that, I'd recommend that we then make a public statement to them.

Good.

Good day, Mr. President.

C.E.S.

Dan Shuler.

The rebellious.

Good.

The President's never talked to the Secretary about this?

On the other thing, I don't think there's much sense in giving more of it because he doesn't know what I meant.

I meant on the other end.

I see no reason for you to talk to the President again.

I've talked to him Friday, and he knows what to make of it.

And if he doesn't have it, it's... What did you tell him?

I told him...

He wanted something that would do it this way.

He wanted to hold something on this meeting.

Oh, you mean on the Cupid thing?

No, not on the Cupid thing.

I don't think he did that.

He said he was sending a telegram and he would expect it to be by Tuesday or Wednesday.

We'll see.

But I have not asked him.

No.

Again?

No, I think it was you.

I think it was you.

This has to do with all of our assault decisions.

Well, I said, I said that Harrison particularly wanted me to make it clear that his position on both the inspiration of his original decision on ADM

His annual reviews on the ABM, which he did in close consultation with all the agencies in the government, have been misrepresented.

And he does not want an issue which is so white that it's on the ABM system.

Actually, that he misrepresented, and it was misrepresented, any suggestion that the President had apprehension about his ABM system,

is totally without foundation.

The President has total confidence in the system and you know that type of thing.

I said not only has the President of the United States never discussed this with Mr. Fletcher,

He has never discussed it with anyone else, any doubts about the APNs.

Then they led me into the thing.

Well, has he met with Fletcher?

So I used it, and I said, well, he met him, I think, at a reception over here.

So I was able to kick that in.

That's right.

I just saw your name.

CBS got in line, huh?

Well, not only the whole country, but it's a very good story.

Good.

Well, that's good.

You see, Ron, sometimes we have to pick our enemies, too.

And sometimes it's necessary.

We sort of tend to say, well, we'll sort of tell and play a story.

I was thinking, for example, I was thinking, for example,

Yeah.

I was having lunch.

I'll tell him.

Okay.

There are other cars.

What do you think George did?

Do you think he just made up the goddamn story?

Well, I don't know.

Or do you think Fletcher did say something?

Well, Fletcher had one lady.

I have never met Fletcher.

Believe me, I never met Fletcher.

They asked me, well, does Fletcher support the ABM system?

And I told them, I said that my conversation with him, he said that he had no concern about the ABM system, but you asked Fletcher, he'd be on the other side.

And I've gotten the word through to Fletcher that he by God better say support ABM.

The whole of the construction is out of the building.

We're heading to the factory stands, sir.

Well, here's what I was going to tell you.

Sometimes it's necessary to, on these things right now, to, like we're going to pick up pretty hard on this next opening.

I think that they send you out and kind of press, put you in a position where we're just sort of trying to avoid a flap.

You know, well, the question is brave, he won't try to do anything, and so forth and so on.

I think that...

I think that we've got to look for opportunities when you can get up and knock their goddamn brains out.

Yes, sir.

David, what I want you to do, and we're going to change your posture a little now, if you say in that respect, your briefings are excellent.

They couldn't be better, I know.

But I think that now we can make New Year's a greater asset, but I think you've just got to, sometimes you've got to go, wham, like that.

Now on this one, it needed to be wham.

And I didn't want to wait.

I didn't want to wait until they had that.

Well, there was a certain amount of drama and going back out to it.

But David Lawrence, oh yes, I played that game.

You know, I come out.

But he said, well, what was the president's attitude?

I said he was irritated.

Now, I thought before I said that, but I thought we should express an irritation.

I said he was irritated about an erroneous report.

That's right.

Completely false.

That's what I said.

I didn't want to use angered or anything.

If I would have used nothing, I could have used nothing, but I think it was okay to express that point from the White House.

David Lawrence made a point in this column a day or two ago that it is normal tradition within marshes and people in the White House

that they do not respond to criticism that comes from the critics, like from the Congress or from someone else, because they don't want to escalate the story.

But the point he makes is that over a period of time, you have all of this criticism coming against the presidential programs, about the policies the White House is making, and those pile up on top of one another.

And his point was,

From time to time, the White House should address those critics so that our position is out.

Now, quite frankly, we over the last two years have followed the posture that we don't escalate the circle.

I know that there are times when you want to pick enemies.

Connolly's a great believer.

Sometimes he says, you've got to pick your enemy.

You've got to escalate the story.

You want to escalate the story.

Make it a story.

Fight it.

Get him a fight about this.

I think the Vice President has been used so much, I don't think we should use him.

I use the analogy out here.

I said, for heaven's sakes, when a report appears in the newspaper about something that the administration has done based upon the source, you ask me all the time to see if it's correct.

I said, well, here was a report on television.

It should not be immune if it puts out a

false impression from us putting on our statement.

They said, are you taking on CBF?

I said, we're taking on a portion of one of their newscasts, which created the false impression about the president's position on CBF.

Well, it's good.

I guess I saw the CBS executive yesterday.

He had a nice kind of a job.

And that's it.

That's the way to do it.

Well, just to give you a couple of examples.

People like a little spark in the spark.

It was like a little fight.

Now, I mean, we've taken it on the check.

We've taken it on the line.

We've not kicked it dead so close.

But to show you the heart of last night at this little cabinet dinner we had with the Vice President and all the rest.

And yet, I noticed the weekly news magazines, the television, both times, Newsweek and the television, followed Washington, both times, that we got a very unfriendly reception.

Of course we got an unfriendly reception.

We had to help a lot, I guess.

And so what do you do about it?

I wonder.

I think our mistake is, I told Holland when I said we should, and he realized it and said, here's the next time you go out, we should have got a few of our guys to talk to.

We should have had more.

I said at the meeting the other night, another thing is that we couldn't have, now we'll have Williamsburg.

I just want to know, and I'm sure we expect more.

They're going to be the William and Mary crowds going to come over.

They were there last year.

You remember?

In 68 they were out.

Remember when I was there in 68?

I pointed it out to the press.

We expect pittance.

The president always expects pittance.

I say the president is not advocating what's happening to some victims, but he doesn't mind it provided it's peaceful.

He thinks peaceful picketing, provided there's no...

It's only when there are dangers, physically endangers,

other people in the crowd, you know, or something like that.

Peaceful thinking is perfectly all right.

Why don't you just say we expect it?

I think both of those addresses are at the end.

Excellent.

I talked today a little bit about that.

Well, what I was going to say is, I love that story of how could you get the divine surgery to be changed.

That's part of the public.

That's part of the public myth, obviously.

I don't think that has really slipped into the consciousness.

Of course, I've never been to put much weight in what Newsweek at the time really does in terms of a national impression.

I do know this.

I watched the news shows that night.

Capital had a balance report out of there.

rather, as a matter of fact, made the point in his report that there were some demonstrators, but as the president moved to the hotel, there were 300 clouds in the street, showed you out of the car shaking hands and so forth.

So I think that impression was done.

But I said to Bob, and I mentioned in this meeting the other night, which was an excellent meeting.

He is sharp.

I think that...

Yes, he's great.

But I think in terms of Secretary Harden, in terms of the cabinet, in terms of the administration, and I said this the other night, I feel this, the press are going to be adversaries.

They've been adversaries in the past.

They probably are more so in this case because just their philosophical makeup.

But we should approach the press in a positive way.

way, and never in a defensive way.

The moment an administration appears to be on the defensive, you get the same reaction from the enemies of the press that you get from the enemy on the battlefield or wherever you are.

Then the initiative goes to them.

But you don't consider this sort of thing a pocket CBS?

Absolutely not.

No, sir, and I don't consider your remarks the other night defensive.

No.

I don't think I don't think that it is a negative or I don't think it's being defensive I don't think your remarks came across but I don't think that there's any problem at all for the president of the United States occasionally to be

who's upset with things or with someone or with something.

And this is a point Conley made the other night, too.

Quite frankly, that's what influenced me to say irritated about this thing.

Well, his point was, here's a man who probably devotes more of himself to the presidency than anyone has ever devoted to it in terms of his competence and the details of the job.

the studious president, and so forth.

And he said, here's a man who is very compassionate, very understanding, and so forth.

But he also made the point that here's a man also who has a spark in him to become irritated, to become angered, to become ruthless, he said, in a healthy way.

And I think by conveying that,

from time to time.

You can't indicate to yourself all that it is.

That's right.

On the other hand, you can't, you see, everybody who is worried about it, you end up just...

What Johnson really did though, he got mad at the press personally.

And that's the point we must always make.

I don't, as far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less what they think personally.

I treat them all the same, all equally, all equally.

There's never been a mischievous word expressed.

Do you realize that?

Do they know this?

I've made the point.

Why this?

What Johnson's mistake was, he got mad at him personally and then went to a jail, right?

I think what we have to do is do it.

I think we're good.

All right, see, we're going to head up again on the next office conference.

We'll have it with a camera over here and just move it in here and let him ask everything.

We're doing it.

These interviews, these interviews have had, that's why they came out.

They were with me this morning on the Salisbury thing.

I realized that.

Well, listen.

Why don't they?

You know why I gave it to them?

I mean, the real reason.

It's inter, it's pollination of the comments.

You know the situation.

Si is not the brightest guy in the world, but he's the only person on the foreign policy staff in the Times who shares our views.

I've known him for 20 years, and he's a rather decent guy, and he writes pretty well when he thinks.

And he's an honest reporter.

But he's in a hell of a fight with Johnny Oaks and Scotty Russell about Vietnam and everything, foreign policy.

So he saw me a year ago.

I've seen him every year.

I've seen him every year for at least, you could say I've seen him every year for about a year.

Six or seven years I saw him, and I saw the Wallace as a matter of fact.

I saw him in London once, and I saw him in Paris once.

I saw him when I was vice president.

In other words, he's a gentleman.

He comes in about once a year.

We're old friends, to put it that way.

I mean, we've known each other for a number of years now.

I figured there was no better way to get our viewpoint across to the Times, which nobody agreed to, except a few people who'd come.

And they kneeled the leadership of the Times, and they had Cy Sullivan and now Cy, of course, was strutting around that place for a while.

Scottie O'Neill up the wall, Johnny Oaks was right in the National Editorial of Marvel, and so on and so on down the line.

As far as these press guys are concerned, yeah,

A lot of them enjoyed their views, you know what I mean?

I acknowledge that, and that the rules are always the same.

They quoted me, I mean, they weren't supposed to, but then one time after the election, you know, they quoted me, I mean, there was no, did Joe Patrick ever quoted me?

Sure.

And I have no objection to that.

I had never sat and examined the transcript afterwards.

That's another thing to do.

I've never in all my life examined the transcript.

I won't do it.

I told him not to do it.

I will not edit the transcript.

I told him you had not read the...

They said, well, you mean he didn't read this over?

I said, what I'm referring to, he didn't read the transcript of the article.

See, their question this morning was, Salzberger wrote the transcript.

I said, if you're going to refer to it, refer to it as, as reported in the New York Times by Cy Salzberger in their interview with the president.

The point is, he just made potential notes.

He did not have a transcript.

They said, well, is there anything in the article that you want to shoot down or disagree with and so forth?

No.

maybe seven months from now, we'll say the president said that this is probably the last war.

I said, wait a minute.

I said, the president indicated, if you look at the context of the article, that his objective is to achieve a generation of peace.

And as he is approaching foreign policy under the Nixon doctrine, the strengthening of our allies, our posture throughout the world, it is his hope and it is his desire to lead to a period in our history where we will have peace.

That's right.

And if you read the transcript, this could well be...

This could well be the last one related to that, sir.

We may have one.

For us.

It's about what I was speaking about, too.

I was talking about the Latin... War in the world.

Oh, what the hell?

I can't talk about what's going to happen in Latin America.

I can't talk about the United States.

That's all right.

But you see what it does to the Indian people so many times.

And nobody really thinks that anybody at the time was a friend of mine.

So nobody's going to claim Si Sulzberger gave us anything for him, right?

He isn't like Joe Alsop, for example, that they consider as a friend whose history, which, you know, I've been introduced to.

I'll go down the line.

Dave Wilson has had it.

Dave Wilson's ISO, Dave Wilson, of course, works hard.

This follow-up, Roscoe Grumman, and so on down the line.

Some of them use it in direct quotes.

Some of them do not, but it depends.

I have no objection to that.

Others have used it.

We don't care.

I think it makes no difference.

You go on.

You cannot expect them to speak in background.

Don't work.

Aren't you agree?

I did.

There are some, sometimes when you're with a columnist, you're a little backgrounded.

But I think you've got to say, well, you can quote what I've said here.

These are my views, or some matter I have talked about.

You can express this and so on and so on.

Well, now they had their press conference last week.

We had this this week.

Now we'll get to the office press conference next week.

Then the one-on-one with ABC.

The one-on-one with ABC.

That'd be good tomorrow.

And the Barbara Walters thing.

Yeah.

I think if you don't, I think if you don't, they'd like you.

A lot of men like that would go.

Let me put it this way, because the story is what Dick Moore used to say, is he would always nail the little lies.

Now I don't go quite that far.

there's no question about this be interesting someday and i when i talk to short i'm going to go call him right now well i'm going to call him for the purpose of

Tell them that he was wrong.

No.

You don't think so?

No, no, no, no.

No, sir.

Don't call them out.

All I knew of you was just freedom of the cold and restrain.

You would get CPS.

Don't you?

Don't.

Don't give him the benefit of the call.

If you call him, because you're a sellout or any of those people, and you get an argument, they, CPS, they suck on their story.

They didn't check with you to see whether or not the story was accurate before they went.

Now, let him call you.

He probably won't.

All right.

But when he calls, I will be talking to myself and say, that is totally false.

Anybody that's been with the president of this knows it's totally false.

There is nothing expressed.

Totally false.

But I don't think so, I'm pretty sure.

If it went the other way, it would be like you said, I said earlier, call someone and raise hell.

That's another way to get at it.

But now you're picking them off on the broad spectrum.

Hell didn't call you?

I can counter-attack that.

Yes, sir?

Yes, we can.