Conversation 466-006

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Sir, we have a 1 in the 11th hour request here.

I'm curious to know if you want to return it.

It looks like it's all out.

Sir, we have a question.

We have a question.

Is he here now?

Jerry Smith is sort of standing by, and I don't think he's here at the White House.

Awesome.

I can comment for a picture if that's not too awkward.

But we need Moon to take a picture at the White House, perhaps.

Does he think that's going to do anything to us?

I don't think so.

Now, they asked for a photo opportunity, but I trust we'll be on that, isn't it?

Our press is ready.

We're going to be here now.

I don't mind getting him over, but just so it's understood now that it's just for a picture, because I don't want to talk to him.

Because I've already talked to him.

I mean, he has to say about Saul.

He wants to come in for a picture to say I'm a meeting with the Secretary of the Treasury.

He can drop in, pack a picture, and get out and take whatever crosses here.

There'll be somebody around.

I don't come in to take an extra bus.

Well, I think he's got it all covered.

He said it was an impossible job.

Here it is, impossible job.

Man, we got our buddy at the end of the tunnel.

Well, that's not a good picture.

I want you to know, around here,

Whenever you have anything to talk about, as you know, you, you, you, you are one of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of the,

Papa D called you because I wanted you.

I think I'm going to continue this for actually another couple of weeks.

I just think you just need time before I get feet in the ground.

But then after that, we ought to get together from time to time and have a chat.

You know what I mean?

Just about to get on the bus.

Obviously.

But what you see, John, you've got to...

I want you now to understand.

I'll be back.

It'll be national.

I've got to be very, very frank with you.

The kind of people that spend most of my time, or would spend most of my time, are much more private.

You're whining.

Not many of you want to talk about nothing.

And that's irrelevant.

But the point is, the fact of the matter is, you know how it is.

The important thing is that I talk to those people who have something to say.

We've got a lot to talk about, not only about trading and other things, but I literally waited, wanting you to have a chance to do all your other things.

So you let me know that you do that.

I should just call him.

I should call him in case you wanted him.

I'll just give him a call.

I'll talk to the secretary.

I'll just call him and say, you know, in a few minutes, you know, we'll arrange it.

And we'll see what he has to say.

I'll just speak to him.

Obviously, I don't want to talk to you unless there's a reason.

There are a lot of two things that I should be able to explain to you.

Three studies, four items that I'm trusting a bit about Arthur Burns.

I want to, if it's convenient with you now, I want to talk to you about Lockheed.

Go ahead, John.

And then we've mentioned the DuPont thing.

Right.

And then the outflow of money that ties into the Burns thing.

Yeah.

In reverse order, John Mitchell is more on top now of the DuPont thing than I.

He and I both met with two of Ross Perot's men yesterday at 2 o'clock for over an hour.

I got a call, which unfortunately I couldn't take this morning, from Martin Irish, who is Ross Perot's man in New York.

Everybody got negotiated.

They won a lot of things.

I think of Egypt, perhaps.

But they've got to be mean to each other.

Egypt has a headway, right?

Mitch Hall and Mark Marsh are two bright young fellows.

They're smart as hell.

This guy, Grover Dixon, is what he's fighting.

He doesn't want to try to get a touch.

But if what they say, hey, what they say is correct, I don't have a head to take in those people.

It feels like a good deal.

It just sounds terrible.

But anyway, we're still trying to put it together.

The civic board met this morning.

I talked to Arthur Burns.

He got his man.

I talked to John yesterday.

Last night, he was going to talk to the SEC people, and I talked to Bruce McClary of the Treasury, and told him to do nothing.

The damage he had not put upon the receivership today, because that's really what they're going to do.

Because, you see, there's the B-molecule, the capital requirements, the New York Stock Exchange, everything.

It's going to be a hell of a thing to work out of.

If I told you not to do it, they will not do it.

It resets the meeting if you have to come back for further instructions.

That's about all I know.

John Mitchell is trying to get the SEC to expedite some applications they have to file over there.

I told the Internal Revenue Service to expedite anything in our shop.

And one of the problems is who in the hell can get the DuPont family to do anything?

I don't know who can.

That would work.

We would do the best we know how to keep it short down the drain.

That's all we can do.

But the circuit control, which we have no control for, is not going to do the move.

unless he can get the department, all of the investors, under contract.

Because he said, if I'm failing that, I'm going to have the losses anyway.

He said, I'll do it, but I'll be more money if I have two or three years' losses.

And I'm going to do it.

So these things kind of have a progression.

We'll just see how it comes out.

On the market, we're down, I think, to the point where

The government's going to have to make a decision on whether or not it can or should or wants to guarantee some loans.

And I think it's a hell of a tough call.

They've even day-packed the bankers.

I met Dan Hoffman and four bankers this morning, basically the Bankers' Trust and the Bank of America this morning for two hours.

The Bankers' Trust, they all said,

There are 24 banks in this bank, but the two lead banks are the Bank's Trust, that's Bill Moore, and then the Bank of America.

The net of it, as President said, is this.

The airlines are willing to stay with Lockheed provided they have some assurance that they will continue to be a viable corporation in business.

The bankers are willing to loan some more money.

provided they're going to be a viable continuing operation, and provided that they get in the range of $250 million more than the banks are willing to loan to operate and to perform their investment efforts.

And this means the government's either got to guarantee it or provided it by some means.

I think it's fairly certain they're not going to proceed with the Rolls-Royce

Where else did they get the engine from?

Well, they did it from GD.

GD.

I've always understood that those engines cost a lot more than the old ones.

Under the deal that Rolls-Royce has now made, it's going to cost them an additional million dollars per plane to get the Rolls engine.

For a million dollars per plane, they can get the GD engine, or down close to that.

So they might as well get it here.

Yeah.

That's correct.

Obviously, the British are willing to come back and trade some more, but Dan's not willing to do that.

And the British proposal is not acceptable at all at this point because, for two reasons, the banks will not go for it because it's open-ended with respect to development costs, the law team has to pay, the bank will not pay.

Secondly, it's not acceptable because, in addition to the other things,

they're now requiring that the continuity of Lockheed be assured over the life of the engines, which is for roughly 15 to 20 years, either by the plants or by the United States government.

So when they in effect have said that the government's got to guarantee the continued existence of Lockheed, that's also part of their deal.

So I just don't see how, unless there's a much different tactic,

that they can accept their deal.

And frankly, I didn't purchase that month.

I used it.

It's going to be used to make it a point of great worth.

And I don't think we set it up.

I said we did everything we could.

We tried to work out.

Our team went good.

And I said the government will come in and help.

He's getting the cat on his back.

But I'm not being critical of them.

I just don't get the way you set it up.

And if I were to get in place, I'd probably do the same thing.

But the meta is set to this, that Lockheed will not survive this construction unless

unless they get a government guarantee or a government loan.

I told them we have no authority to do that, but you are extremely concerned about it from every standpoint, the impact on the economy, the jobs involved, the suppliers, the banks, everybody.

But we have not.

consider any such guarantee because you have no authority to do it, nor does any department without congressional authorization.

And because, excuse me, I have a controversy in which our team was involved, I thought congressional action would be damn different from that.

But that was not a decision for me to make, but wanted to.

It would have to, one, it would have to be considered.

David Packer has done everything he can do to the Defense Department, I think, to keep them alive and keep the cash position so that they can exist and destroy the cash.

And he has been extremely helpful.

He's leading over the Packers trial, at least in the last several months.

And sometime, well,

And the next thing you know, you start thinking, we'd like to get into it, but I can't get into it.

I'm going to tell you what to do about it and get to wherever else you're more involved in it.

But I don't see it has to be made that, or it's going down the drain and it may go down anyway.

Maybe that's the thing.

I don't know.

All of the ramifications of this, I see it.

But while I'm talking about that, let me suggest that you give some thought to it.

instead of assuming you want to go to Congress with some authority.

I'm not sure we ought to consider, instead of asking for authority to guarantee $250 million for our keys, we're going to ask for a billion dollars, a billion and a half dollars, to reconstitute reconstruction finance, or I've named it that way, an institution of that kind.

I don't want the LSU to stop them.

I don't really need them.

This Penn Central thing is still very much a factor in this country.

And in New York on the weekend, they indicated to me that they were going to have a major crisis on their hands the third day if something was done.

Loxahedron is going down the tube, going down the drain or something.

And it may not be all that bad, but nevertheless, they're going to do what it is.

I don't know where we could head next, but at least we ought to be thinking instead of taking a piece of needle.

I'm not sure that we ought to reconstitute what would be in your best interest, economically, politically, in whatever way, to have an agency with that kind of authority, commitment to authority.

Otherwise, you make me face the fact that the nationalists are pretty damaged.

You guys have a viable railroad that goes to the United States.

You know, Penn Central just can't quit offering.

It's too good.

If you don't have to take over, you don't have to take over.

I just use that as an example.

That's the second thing.

That's the first thing.

I'm going to take care of that.

That's right.

Can't you state the commitments to simulate on the basis of a fire party to ask for legislation, whose fate might be very, very uncertain?

They would keep it alive, I ask that question.

I think they'd keep it alive, pending the outcome of the legislative request.

They presently, here's what they're suggesting, they presently have loaned $350 million.

just before the Rolls-Royce debacle, they agreed to advance an additional 50 million to Lockheed directly.

So that would be 400 total.

They also were going to give the airlines an additional 100 million, which the airlines would in turn give to Lockheed as payment on their planes in Hawaii.

So that, in effect, would give Lockheed an additional 150 million dollars.

the $300,000 plus the $50,000, plus the $100,000 from the airline.

Now they're saying that they will do that.

The banks will increase their loans by $150 million.

$50 million direct to Lockheed, $100 million through the airlines to Lockheed, if the government will guarantee the next $250,000 they think it's going to take around.

But if you say guarantee it, but if the government is asking, we can't guarantee it without legislation.

They guarantee it.

They, on the basis of Carson, be saying, you won't ask for us.

That's the question I have.

I think they'd advance enough to keep the country from going under until they concede.

Until they concede.

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir, they would.

All my reaction to what John said, too.

Hey, uh, if he just needs to let it go, um, I, I, I, uh, I, I, we, we, we, we did do that in the case, and Senator, we, the fact that there were just, the problem was too big, too big, and there was certainly no defense connection, not a real one, to really demonstrate.

In this case, in this case, uh,

Wocky had a problem with the C5A on the trip, but we do have a bench set up for her, but it seems she may have a denture on her face.

Well, Wocky was not responsible for the trouble for us.

Nothing.

Nothing serious at all.

or the back of these engines, or will he buy things out of them?

This goes in this direction.

The hell with the credit unions.

They're not going to fool with Rolls-Royce when they go through GE or something and they didn't get it to happen.

They're probably going to buy it home.

All those guys at home are going to say they're going to buy it home.

They're going to have this industry survive.

The other thing is that...

I can see the point of this, but...

an RMC to make a calling for that is, is whether or not it may be very active in going towards creates a certain form of life in Congress and other areas.

Uh, you know, I mean, I, rather than write a show in this particular month

But let me say this, without thinking through the whole thing, my reaction, and I would like for you to act on this with Dave and all the rest, my reaction is we should save Lockheed.

I think we should save Lockheed, and I think we should save, I think also the airlines are going to lose money, the subcontractors are going to lose money.

That's right.

And I talked to Dan Hawkins about it yesterday.

But I don't think he's done anything.

That's the hell he wants to do.

We want to be safe for the communities.

We want to keep this company and the rest.

Lockheed, we need one of them.

Rather than one strong company, one weak one, we need one strong one, period.

That's right.

And that's what ought to happen.

I think Lockheed probably is.

But suppose you put the other person, the other person, so what?

Lockheed crumbles.

You can't just say that, right?

It's a tough thing to let go.

Now, we have to say that, and I think what we do, we just go directly to the Congress and say this involves defense, and it involves a lot of money, and so forth.

So we've made the commitment.

I'd like for you to act on that, if you would.

You tell everybody that's the deal.

I mean, there's no use to go out there and go over it.

You call it a close call.

And so what you do is close calls, but you've got to call it.

That's what you do.

And I just don't believe in going through the ringer business as its point, but not at a time when the economy is beginning to move and at a time when it depressed.

Mind you, this is not about you.

This is a time.

That is not a factor.

I think this whole confidence factor would be massively affected by any depressants at this point.

Now, what I'd like to do, and what I'd hope to be able to do about this one, I said, I don't know.

I said, obviously, nobody makes decisions of this magnitude without the President agreeing.

And we should be able to.

But I said, I'm going to very strongly recommend that at the time this matter comes up, if we're all going to take a beating, if we're all going to get our necks on the line, if we're all going to make a sacrifice, then I think you ought to go to your unions and say, we're going to make money now, that's going to be healthy.

And I know that all executives, all salary people, all wages will be reduced 10%.

I said, let's take a cut.

That's right.

Try it.

Yeah.

Just take a cut for a year.

And then for the next three years, you're all on the same lines.

Just let's get an agreement.

Let's get about a three-year agreement.

Why don't you put it out of this hole?

Well, it's got to hit you.

And I said, now, God damn it, if you don't want to do it, I don't mind talking to them that way.

I said, what's your alternative?

I said, your alternative is to go down the drain and take a lot of the job.

I said, what's wrong with you taking a 10% cut?

And I said, you want to do something for the economy of this country?

I don't know what they plan to do.

That helps fight inflation.

I said, now, how do we grow stronger and make it faster?

And they said, no, there's no way.

You know, you just have to come to that type of gaining arms.

And arms help, you see.

They give you stability.

And then we get the time and the cost.

We go to Congress.

It's another heavy wage escalation.

And at least it's where it's going.

Oh, sure.

And we don't get it.

It's going to be like we might get it, but it's worth it, obviously.

I think we can get it.

In terms of the cut, probably not.

No.

That's what I think.

I think it would have a tremendous effect on the whole economy.

It would have a stabilizing effect on the whole economy.

We're going to save our company.

We're going to step up to this thing.

We're not going to let this company go down.

The government's got to put up a lot of money.

We can't ask the taxpayers to do this unless we can agree to be responsible in our relationship.

If we can do this, then you can go to hell and put down the church.

Except if you get prepared to do this, the banks are prepared to put up another $150 million.

We're not bailing anybody out except this time.

But y'all got to listen.

And just like you got to agree with me, don't you?

Amen.

We ought to sit.

We ought to try.

I really think you ought to try.

That's my opinion.

That would be my opinion.

That's your opinion?

I would surely agree with you.

I just don't feel that you can just let this thing wash around and go down.

I know all the arguments about it, but why can't you sit about it?

Maybe there are too many airplane companies, maybe it ought to go, and it's going to cost us more later, and all that sort of thing.

If, for example, this economy last year, the time the economy was going down anyway, it would have made all that much difference.

But at a time when the economy has moved up, you don't want to suck up life.

That's when it started to burn again.

That's what I feel.

Now is the time to not go have the advantage.

We'll have to build a team of defense people, traffic people, CV people, Department of Transportation people.

We're going to have to go through and analyze contracts and all this and everything in the world.

Perfect presentation to be held.

But one justification for doing this.

If you don't, if we go down the drain, you've got a lot of suppliers, over $400 million in losses there that have been written off.

The airlines have $200 million in losses written off.

The banks have $300 million in big taxes, losses written off.

And this is going to be hell more than $250 million in taxes that we're going to lose.

And so we're going to have to work this out, especially with Kansas City.

Well, let's just do it.

But now the question is, how do we do it from an organization standpoint?

Do we...

Where do we put the responsibility on this thing?

Should we give it past the word?

Should we make them lobby the Department of Transportation?

I think this is a- Of course,

I think they put it in terms of jobs.

They put it in terms of the balance of the tax write-off system.

In other words, it is going to cost a lot of people more.

They put it in terms of the fact that this is something that is not our fault.

It is nobody's fault.

It's an international situation.

And now we're going to turn those bridges into biohazards.

It has a lot of overtones that are very, very disabled, I feel.

Well, I think that's right.

I guess the lead agency, logically, will have to feed the fence.

Although they've taken such a weapon on the C-5A.

But the Department of Transportation hasn't really been able to get into it.

The CAB is not the one.

I wonder if it should be done.

We can do it.

I have been involved with the Treasury Department to that extent, and we certainly would share the responsibility.

My defense point being is what kind of bill or this is the, I think that is a, this is what I'm thinking about this authority we're going to ask for.

We ask for something in defense.

Well, I didn't really know about it, so I can't see what you basically want to do, really.

I think that's something we haven't analyzed, and I didn't really talk to any of you about it.

Now, as far as here is concerned, you can use anybody you want.

I would say Ashley, right, and Sam, and Spill, and...

It would probably be better off if our churches could meet because they are right now.

Yeah.

We should analyze it and we should see.

And we sort of don't mind that.

We don't mind that at all.

Yeah.

All the ideas, if you will, without having any of the things that you're talking about, you might, if you will, if you are seeing it,

That asserts itself to be much broader than that.

It's a trace of your name.

If you move in terms of, say, Lockheed, then perhaps more defensively or not.

I agree.

They've launched a defense contract.

Defense knows more about their operations.

They've gone through their books.

They've audited their books.

None of this was done.

This is all faithful.

We've got a very good man, Packer.

He's intelligent.

He knows his business.

Who would you like?

Who should we get up to?

Yes.

Here.

He's been in it.

Do you understand?

If you would.

If you would like.

Let's put it this way.

I think you understand the... Shall we say it?

The implications of this go far beyond that.

It's not really what I was trying to do.

Therefore, I would like to think of you as being the man who brought me behind the scenes and so forth.

I was without getting involved in the details.

I don't want you to have to screw around and have me do the whole thing.

He didn't avoid it.

The second thing is I didn't understand the point of the men to use that I would suggest that you use when you're cutting edge in a thing.

He's a good follow through kind of guy.

He'll do just what he's told.

He knows that's a good thing to do.

The other thing is that

that uh this goes beyond see this goes beyond the domestic things it's the domestic council that's that's another reason why planning is and it also calls the arrow across the river where you're doing a little work and then but but if the president if you could see uh

I'll put it this way.

When we finish our conversation, I'll call Flannigan on the phone and tell him that you'll be telling him the decision that we've made, that he's to do anything that we want about the warehouse.

And then you just tell him.

Let him get all these facts together that you want from him if you like.

Right.

Second, we'll let him just do it.

But you can start informing the

People involved, the impactors should know that we're just going to go that way and keep on going.

We're going to go and we're going to make a fight to save the money.

Mr. President, I may respect the suggestion, and I want to talk to you before, uh, before I, uh, Yes, sir.

If you talk to Dave, and if he has a strong view of otherwise, let me know.

I'll do that, because I'll be, uh, I'll be back in Williamsburg sometime this afternoon.

Yeah.

Between 4 and 5 o'clock, I'll be here.

I'll be back at 4 o'clock.

Alright, she's born five, so if you've got any bed, or tomorrow morning before 8.30, I can put it in the port tomorrow.

Would you call me or any of our, I guess you're right, you should talk to Packard.

But you know what your way to leave Packard.

Yes.

Push it in the direction that you want to save it.

And that's, that's go.

Fair enough?

Yes.

Alright.

Start the country again.

Just bring me something in about 15 minutes.

Yes, I'm right here.

Yes.

Now they understand.

Oh.

So you hear them?

Yeah.

You got it.

You wait a minute.

Hold on, I'll get you a picture.

All right.

That's the letter.

Sit down and watch the camera go down.

He's going out right on the heels of the truck.

He was coming over and he said the artifacts are not here.