Conversation 470-005

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I had a long call from Chris Harlow last night about Gordon Allen.

He had said he'd be on the court about his last year.

And it makes me want to knock off.

It makes me want to back off.

But it's by no means an anonymous recommendation.

It's sad, of course.

And I think the consensus in this 8 o'clock group is that we ought to toughen through.

Bryce thinks that this will...

be possible to do, and we will get this question here confirmed if we do indicate to Alec that this is your strong desire, but he will sit in his tent and bitch and moan for the rest of his life.

And if you don't do it, he'll sit in his tent and bitch and moan.

Well, of course he'll sit in his tent and bitch and moan.

With a guy like Allen, the choice is never a very good one, as you know.

Bryce's thought was that if you were going to yield to him, the way to do it would be to call Allen out of the Appropriations Committee meeting this morning, where they're considering the SST, and say, Gordon, you know, I'm going to defer you on this, and we'll take the second choice in the department.

On the other hand, if you decide that you want to persevere, then it should not be done today.

We should wait until the Senate Appropriations Committee is through with its action on the SST, leaving the thing up in the air until the first of the week sometime.

He'll be down here Tuesday morning for the leadership, and Clark or you or somebody could get him aside and say the President really wants it, and work it out at that point.

Slessinger, what do you hear about Slessinger?

No.

Alan has never met Slessinger.

All he knows is that he's not from the far west.

He's from California.

Well, no, he was at Ram for five or six years in Santa Monica, but basically he taught at Charlottesville, and he's from the east, and Alex says he just...

You've got an Easterner for Secretary of the Interior.

Now you're proposing a non-westerner for Undersecretary.

He said that's traditionally a Western department.

And he said, how am I going to raise that people?

So on and so forth.

That's an argument that has a lot more weight than the other.

You know, that's what he gave the other day to sum up what the hell is a fraud that he did.

Did McClure say that?

Yeah.

See, he unveiled all this with Bryce last night.

He said, every day that goes by, I know those two Easterners are over there passing on the welfare of the West.

Bureau of Land Management lands and all our mineral resources.

He said this would be a continual source of concern and anguish and, you know, how he goes on.

In any event, I would never take Bryce's.

That's what I did that.

He's not that kind.

He must have it that way.

He's a very difficult problem.

The problem we have is that

I was driven by being a very strong man.

So there's your second leadership.

Young is gone.

Nor is communist.

Tired.

Old, you can say.

Alibaba's up in 72.

Alibaba's here.

One of our great strong secretaries.

He is not at all strong on this.

He does not want to tangle with the Senate Security Committee.

That's the point.

He is not at all strong on this.

Well, he's perfectly willing to take McCall.

He's perfectly willing to jettison Schlesinger.

He has never pushed McCall to the West.

No.

He's a career department man who has his ties to the Hill.

He's the head of the Coastal Geodetic end of the department.

Would Allen accept McCorra?

Yes.

That's right.

Right.

But see, they know they can deal with McCorra.

They know McCorra for 20 years.

I didn't ask you.

Most of the men you fight for are fine men, but there are others who will do the job, too.

And so to make sure it's a matter of pride, now we pick the men, and we should have our way, and all that sort of thing.

Again, we have a very difficult situation.

In addition to the paramedics, the secretary of the job, there's more people who manage, pick these men, and they should stand up to it.

And that's what I mean.

I don't like the idea of a White House without Barton's enthusiasm.

We shouldn't do it at all.

Barton ought to be on the stand then.

I begin with that proposition.

and not the White House saying, no, you've got to take Schlesinger, not George Holtz, you know, trying to say you've got to take Schlesinger and get him in more trouble than Allen and the opposition and so forth.

I personally just have a feeling that it isn't worth fighting Allen about this.

There may be other things to fight him about.

How about turning this back to Martin?

Telling Martin what your feelings are.

All right, he's going to have to make the decision.

It's his decision.

And it's up to him.

That's right.

I really feel it's got to be his decision.

And he's here at the minute.

And also, he wants to get along with Al.

He needs to go out of the way.

He doesn't hurt the other one.

All right.

I don't think that we ought to take the cabinet officers every time they come to the White House.

That's right

I don't think Bob makes that much damn difference.

As far as us using their wheels.

If someone else wants to.

Okay.

Is it?

Because I'm sure Mark will take it.

Yeah.

Well, we can put some of this in our AAC.

Without the game, though.

That wasn't the question.

No, but I mean, really.

No, it does require some scientific evidence or other knowledge.

I mean, he has a lot of knowledge in the area.

He's got, you know, a bigger background.

I talked to Rodney about his local fruit of all, and there's a breakfast meeting at 8 o'clock Monday morning.

I'm invited.

Burns is going to be there.

The Council of Economic Advisers have prepared paper for the meeting.

on what can be done.

Is it on the construction floor?

Uh, no.

What does it know?

It's a waste press spiral.

Yeah.

And, uh, so, uh... Should I call Kraft back and ask him if there's any more he wants to tell me?

What did you ask him?

Oh, I asked him specifically about this thing.

I said, you know, I've only met with that group once, and that was just about construction.

Which is?

Why don't you wait until I get the paper?

Wait a little further.

Why don't we wait?

I have the paper coming to me from Romney.

And let's take a look at it and see what the scope of it is.

Paul sure as hell didn't tell me all he could have told me.

Well, he's got a little leg on his chin there.

Yeah, but he's a big soda.

And so I'll go Monday morning.

He's not a very strong man, John.

That's probably why he's locked around.

And Arthur is just a pocket on his own.

Thank God we've got Conley.

He's the only man Arthur chose to stand up against him, and he has another prestige.

I raised with Romney... Conley's going to kill Arthur one day when Arthur goes too far, but he's certainly not going to.

I raised with Romney the question of Arthur's independence as affected by his attendance in a meeting of this kind.

And Romney said, well, you know, Arthur is so interested in this subject, and he has quite a lot to contribute.

And we all just feel that it would be right to have him there.

About Hodgson, he's going to have him?

No.

How could he have him with the wage price spiral ahead of Hodgson?

I didn't suggest that he invite Hodgson, but I did check to see if Hodgson was going to be there.

You might raise with Arthur the problems of independence in his meeting with ad hoc cabinet committees.

Maybe steer him off this if you want him.

On the other hand, if you want to get him implicated like this is what we're going to do, he will be a very strong influence in this meeting.

I'm sure.

You're sure?

You'll tell him what to do?

Yeah.

Well, there's a lot of mental heavyweights here.

That's right.

We knew Mr. Romney and Blunt and Colby and...

Well, actually, the heaviest of sins.

He knows at least something.

The others don't really have any comprehension of what to do.

They all have their own pressure out, and promise to break up unions, and they've got a union power, and somebody else says, oh, we've got to do this, we've got to do the other thing, and none of them know what in the hell to do.

They don't think things through the heart of guns.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, we're practically capable of saying the truth.

Oh, we'll never be such... Something is afoot, obviously.

They're...

There's a line being developed and it's a question whether you want to break it up at this point before the Monday meeting by telling Arthur not to go on the track or let it run through the Monday meeting and get the thing kind of fixed and then have the cabinet confront you with it at their meeting that will be later on in the week.

Oh, fuck.

Yeah, I don't think, Maury is, Maury's got a, he's got a little, he doesn't know enough about our organization.

We'll change the clients over here and so forth and play with it.

Sure.

I think it's easier to check, you know.

Well, I'm going to be like a court system there.

Sure.

Second, let's talk a little bit more about this meeting in July.

First, on the, uh, on the, uh, sort of the draft on the falls against the Corp. All right.

That's fine.

I think it makes sense.

That's workable.

Do you agree with me?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I just don't think that we probably can say that the White House insists that we're going to put Schlesinger over there and take that job.

I mean, it's up to him.

Yep.

And he's got to handle it.

But I don't know.

You've got to live with it or not.

And we don't.

I think also I should talk to him about the nose problem of vacillation and not letting this thing string out.

He's got to come to a decision this weekend, and Monday he's got to put it into effect and let us know what he's decided and keep it moving.

That's right.

He's got to make this undersecretary.

That's what he said he could do.

And he goes and talks to Alec.

But he's got to get something to come out.

And I made it appear that Alec's won.

And Alec, like, you know, when a kid gets to Christ, gets to can't even cry again in the morning.

He's got to be a man.

That's what Morton's got to do.

He's got to stand up there.

Put it right on him, though.

And when Romney discovered I was coming, he said, now some of the things in this paper are going to sound pretty radical to you.

But he said this is the best thinking of Herb Stein and a fellow named Deming over at the hut, his economist.

So I said, well, that's an interesting question, too.

I don't know.

But I said, well, it would certainly help me if I could have the paper to read over the weekend.

At least as a layman, I'd be up to speed on this.

And he said, fine, I'll get one right over to you.

So we'll know what Herb's up to.

All right.

Do you believe in McCracken?

I don't know.

I just read the paper.

I don't know.

Say, do you understand?

Just say that I want to see the paper.

That'll, that'll really, that'll really change.

Say, Paul, I understand you prepared a paper and the president feels that any paper like this should be presented to him.

He brought it and said, all right, just send it over by messenger.

Mr. McCracken, or Mr. Holland, please.

it's perfectly it's perfectly covered of course

On that group I talked about yesterday afternoon, I understand now that there's a paper that the Council's prepared for their meeting one day, and the President would like to see that paper.

I wonder if he'd send it over.

Thank you very much.

I'm sure people are all about that.

He said, I said, I understand that the council's prepared a paper.

He didn't say, he didn't deny that.

He didn't say sign it.

He said, for the meeting money.

The price of this?

No, the

This is a substitute for the quadriad.

You've got ferns and a kraken.

The only people you don't have in there are Connelly and Stokes.

Sure.

It's an antibody is what it is.

The only one I really think should come out is Paul.

He should be the one that should not serve you though.

He should keep his nose out of it.

He's not the captain of the company.

He's probably the captain.

He is probably the captain.

That is what Connelly said.

You've got to be one of them.

You've got to determine what you're going to do.

Keep your nose out of our business.

Put our nose in your business.

Connelly's talking all the time.

Good.

Well, this is a hell of a newspaper story for somebody.

Yes, it is.

And that crowd can't keep a confidence.

And I think it's a bad story from the standpoint of the administration.

Newsweek or somebody breaks this and says,

There's division in the administration, and there's this element, and they've been secretly meeting over here.

And I said, why don't you make it the breakfast?

All right.

I enjoyed this.

So I agree with you on that.

And as you're on, I want to be at the breakfast.

Oh, I mean, this is better.

Better to be there and be working on it.

Just say, look, let's keep this on the channel.

This is part of the domestic, what do you call it, domestic council.

Right.

By this device, if you're getting a paper today and my being invited Monday, it's a part of the family.

It's in the system.

It's not a slur.

The person has a paper in advance.

You know about the meeting.

White House is representative.

That's my point.

Yeah.

Paper it in.

That is the way.

There's certainly a wrong way.

Part of this isn't on their part.

This is probably the reason Santa is just going.

They just want to be in the kitchen.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think.

Yeah.

And Archer's name is different.

Archer is not sure what his name is.

He's playing every way.

On the one hand, he says he's afraid of the play.

On the other hand, he says it's not taxing him.

He's got to get his money.

That's quite complicated.

He's got to move away.

Archer's played every way.

He's going to be the winner.

He's going to be the guy that...

He is, and he's an institution now.

He's adroitly enlisted.

Well, it's natural that he could, but he's adroitly enlisted a lot of the financial writers.

That's correct.

But it's to their interest to me that just their natural coloration would take them that way, because they could see that he's potentially in opposition to the administration in their field.

And by striking off on an independent attack, he's given them something to get their toes and fingernails into.

He's going to be hard to tip over.

But it would be a real coup if we could get them to begin endorsing administration steps, coming out flat, saying, the president's right on this, the president's right on this, the president's right on this.

Then I hope everyone has a place to go.

But I would sure hope, if you're worrying about your intangible low confidence and all that, and that shift of Arthur, tangible shift, the support would make a hell of a difference.

the individual government's factors.

See, that's the problem with having the communication between the economy and the other, just the next step, is that it breaks it off.

It creates the idea that the administration is fighting each other.

The economy wants this, it doesn't want to do it, so he's talking privately.

That's why the economy wants to be seen by them.

Well, let me make a suggestion.

I don't know if it's a good one or not, but it is to talk to Harker in those cold political terms that he has either consciously or unconsciously, and we prefer to think unconsciously, permitted himself to become a sort of an anti-institution.

Now, if what he's out for is some sort of a great historical mark for himself, that's fine, and that's the way to do it.

If he wants to be remembered as Arthur Burns, the chairman of the Fed, regardless of what happens to this administration.

On the other hand, if he has any interest at all in the success of the administration,

confidence and looking at the economy and getting this country on a proper basis, the smartest, best political move he can make would be to begin to endorse administration standards.

Get aboard and play ball.

And all you can do is sit back and watch the signals now.

And he can do one or the other.

And there isn't any middle ground.

I don't know whether that's workable with him or not.

Well, you miss a factor in the middle of it, which is Arthur's innate belief in his own rightness.

Which would lead you to believe that no matter where the administration is going, if it's wrong, he owes it to the president.

That's a statement from his own...

I don't believe that that is a very strong element, frankly.

Because Arthur has been on all sides of any given issue.

I am.

You think it's...

I think maybe he doesn't know we've been on all sides.

That's right.

Because, you know, the real point is...

Yeah, but Arthur conceives of himself as a great politician.

And he conceives of himself as sort of a father figure to Richard Nixon.

And he doesn't see it that you made Arthur by putting him in the bed.

He sees it that he made you by getting you as your senior mentor along the way.

That's why I said he made that pretty clear to me and to John.

At least he swiped us pretty hard from time to time about you little punks, you know, I don't understand.

At the same time,

When it has come down to the choice of politics or principle, he'll always go for politics.

There's no question about that.

And he'll do it boldly, in private.

And he'll get a twinkle in his eye and he'll say, well, I suppose that if we were living on Mount Olympus,

We would do thus and so, but you have to understand, as I do, the political currents, you know, all that stuff.

I don't know, I don't think he's kidding us.

I mean, he must know that I've known how big an inconsistency he is and all this stuff.

I've been on every side of every issue.

He has shown all this.

You know what I mean?

The only inconsistency he's had has been, time and again, ending up being against the administration.

Cutting out an independent position.

That's it.

And that's just a process of self-glorification.

Well, he looks like a man.

He cultivates the hell out of Hobart Rowan.

And those kind of people.

Who's the final enemy of the administration?

Sure, sure is, sir.

We're going to have a title of those figures today.

Last month is where a lot of this one is going to be hard.

He'll say, well, one swallow doesn't make a spring.

Not even two.

Yeah.

Okay, before you for just a second, Mrs. Wilbur Mills, her daughter, her side-in-law, and three grandchildren are on a special tour of the White House now.

They'll finish in about 15 minutes, and we're suggesting you meet them on time.

Her daughter is Mrs. Mills, her daughter is a president, and they have three children on the arm.

Just a second.

Yeah, I think that's what you said.

But I think there's a lot of what you said about this whole business and the process.

That's what I'm absolutely here for.

And we've had service for a while.

And I say, I just say welcome and come to the kind of ideas you've got here.

It takes all the steam out of it.

Yeah, yeah.

But I can raise the question.

I can raise the question.

All right.

Yeah, yeah.

See.

I think maybe I should.

I've done enough to, yeah.

I, uh... Well, before the meeting, I want you to talk to them.

I will.

And tell them, I'm worried.

There's a political problem here.

You've got to fix it.

I mean, tell them that there's a chance.

I mean, you've got to tell them.

I mean, they're very confident in you.

But I lay right on the line with regard to our...

And I said, right on the line, if you're regarding how we make the meeting, you know that probably you won't be able to keep their mouths shut.

I just put it that way.

They'll leave it all to the vice, and they cannot have that.

Therefore, I've asked you, and I don't know if there's, they don't know what the shape of our agenda is.

All right.

Because he's watching this.

That's right.

And also, he won't like the idea of going around trying to change the campus.

He would be the one to speak up at the meeting Monday on this point rather than you.

You might ask him if he would come on my line.

It's where he goes a lot.

He'd come much better from the cabin house next week than where he's staying this week anyway.

Along with a few others.

He's got a lot.

Your program on that, that's Oreo.

Yep.

But I have a low key, and I'm gonna make, one thing about this sort of thing, like you've got people down, it's not letting them feel their voices are being heard.

It's sort of low key, and I sort of, it's starting to make me say, no, it's low key and so forth.

We just want to be sure it's handled on the proper channels, and we just want to avoid language which we're sure they didn't think of in a little background.

Now, but also tell Morgan Hall of the Heart,

Here to go out, the President is very appreciative.

In fact, he's spoken in conference all the time with Archer's going out and speaking in L.A. And we just got, we're just, so do what you can, Morgan.

We just spent some time with Archer to try to get him to get bored a little more often.

Get Morgan to deal with that a little better.

He's very, he is.

So I've often said about, because I haven't spoken with him,

It isn't fair.

It isn't fair, believe me, because none of them are all that smart.

I've seen them do something.

But, you know, some guys have got it and some guys don't.

And the only guy who's got the recipe is Scam, which is going to speak to his bank-based economy.

Peter was up yesterday talking to the investment, the institutional investment analyst.

Oh, yes.

He followed Muskie.

and his report is that Muskie did very badly after that.

The analysts were very

Bullish.

Bullish, yeah.

As far as the administration was concerned, he got a good reception.

And he also followed, uh, your, no, your Jewish friend from New York.

Sam Huston.

Okay, he used to work for Greenspan.

He followed Greenspan, who gave a, uh, negative thing, and Peter kicked him right in the teeth on taxes.

And Greenspan doesn't run for president.

Yep.

Yeah, George was at the shrine.

George William Anderson.

Yeah, he and Marty Anderson.

See, that's the other side of the issue.

It's basically Arthur and Marty, and Marty, of course, is concerned about it.

Is there a guru to that?

Yep, climate.

Well, Kevin's back at this thing.

No, I have a, I want him to do that.

I've sent him a note on it.

I have sent it.

I did send it to him.

Let me know what today's meeting is about.

Okay.

One of the best people.

John, just on this tonight, rest for a moment.

It's not me.

We're talking yesterday.

All this business, you know, it's like the, it's almost a sort of parallel, it's kind of parallel.

the main thing is to move it in the right direction.

You can't look at the day, you've got to step back and look.

Why the hell is the stock market at 916?

Yeah, yeah.

Why are some things going wrong?

I mean, there must be some things that are, from the question of Karen beating the cab, I wonder if we haven't made the, maybe we went for the rocket suggestion.

You know, mainly just for the purpose of therapy.

Now, we finally get down, I say again, to three men.

Only two, around him only.

I mean, Sands can be handled nicely.

I mean, he's got to come in, both Sands and Harden have to come in once a month.

Remember how I said, they've got to tell you a few things.

Harden has to come in and tell you a few things.

And they've got to have that, you know.

And also a little social stuff goes a long way with both hands and heart.

They like to, you know, come to church or have a good dinner and all that bullshit.

But, uh, what you have, what we really have in Romney, both be two very, very serious, uh, you know, juvenile types.

Now, now the point is, uh, John, it really,

First of all, I do not think that we should have, again, a so-called unstructured cabinet meeting where they come in and show and tell, because it's to the intelligence and my economy and the rest who got punched and insulted.

It was pretty difficult for them to do so.

Well, let's say again that that was not an unstructured category.

Well, it was, but no staff had told them what to say.

What to say, that they were programmed to say, to tell about their dreams.

All right, all right.

The point is, we're not going to have cabinet meetings just for the purpose of having cabinet members show off.

It has to be a substance.

That's what I mean.

Let's say we're not going to have more cabinet meetings that are not a substance.

The third one is .

Senator

Hello.

Well, they didn't know.

They just lumped together for the tour on that.

Yes, they are.

Well, why don't you show the other rooms first?

Have you done that?

They've seen the other rooms.

Get them together.

Wait for the buzzer to ring.

So, the other thing, by the way, I think that, I think the social stuff is wasted.

Again, you know what I mean?

They have little dinners, or the big ones, the church business, the candidate business, and all that sort of thing.

I mean, quite a bit, but that's, I mean, with regard to the,

Catholic problem.

What you bring, John, we have overdone that.

We've had 158 times a use campaign.

I think it does sound good, but I think the more of that you give them, the more they want it, and the less it satisfies them.

We'll stop it here, but I'll come to what I do think we should do.

I'd like you to do your part.

I think the only thing I'm going to do is say, but do you think we could have, if we had it for two weeks, to make the meeting an hour?

That's what I'm pointing out.

Yes, two hours to have the meeting.

We can do it all.

We can do that.

Sure.

You can turn it over to John and let him get on with it.

You'll just stay out of it and let John end it.

Frankly, you're too generous with it.

You inject yourself too much into it.

And you can try to end it.

I know, I know.

And we can avoid that.

How are you?

Nice to see you, honey, dear.

Thank you.

Yes, I hope you know those daughters of your son-in-law.

Yes, I know you.

Yes, well, I'm glad to see you.

Good night, Steve.

Thank you, sweetie.

It was nice seeing you.

How are you?

And you're the daughter?

Can you tell?

I have a photograph of you, Steve.

I have a photograph right here.

Well, it's too bad we don't have the granddaddy here.

Yeah, well, he's had a lot of kids with me already, and I do get one for you.

Come on.

Now, look out there and smile at us.

Real nice.

Now we get each one of you to get a picture.

If you like one.

Oh, thanks.

All right, all right.

Here we are.

Now we'll give you a little person, so anybody who comes in, this is the person.

This is the person.

I mean, you sent me one.

I'll give you another.

We'll give it back to one of you.

Thank you.

I love you.

Thank you.

You know, you had a good tour, and sitting around, you got to start the tour.

You gave your old president the gold.

Here's one for you.

And here's one for Doug.

And here's one for you.

And it works.

It's so nice to see you.

I don't know what to say.

It's been a while.

But it's 35, 35 years since we've already gone.

Oh, yeah.

Well, that's right.

You're going home.

Goodbye.

We hope you have a good time.

Have a great vacation here in Washington.

Nice to see you.

Do you mind if I sit here?

All right.

.

We're going to bring in another moment of truth on whether the domestic counsel is staffed as White House staff or not.

It says listed in the congressional directory, congressional directory.

Mr. Cole was saying that there is no use having a domestic counsel if they're not listed as the White House staff, listed in the congressional directory.

Why can't they be listed as the domestic counsel?

Which is what they've got to be.

That's why we're trying to get Kim under his name and give him their second name.

Do you think we can share this?

Yeah, we can share it.

Let's go ahead and at least ask for a footnote that says, see also, domestic counsel may as well assume that this is a domestic counsel step.

We should insist that they do their commission.

Yes, the congressional director will do what we ask.

Well, there ought to be a separate section or something.

Because the congressional director would think this is the way they jump on it and say, look, you've added 300,000 people as a last step.

No, I would like to have a separate section.

But look at all this.

Right.

On our page, they should be listed both ways.

Kenco Special Assistant, the President, and the Deputy Director.

That's a pretty little girl.

Could you turn her off?

Could I make a suggestion?

Did you call Wilbur Mills, telling what great-grandchildren he has?

I was going to do it.

I figured you got in a lot of it, but... People like to be told about their grandchildren.

I meant it, sir.

Well, sir, it's very sweet.

Yeah, but the smartest old bevel can be had through those kind of things sometimes.

Yeah.

That's what we saw.

But anyway, we'll talk now.

We'll be good.

Carry the pieces to the cabin.

I was thinking, for example, of the fact that, like, when I saw Connolly yesterday, that was essential.

I'll probably have to see him about once a week.

I've got to see, for example, John to do the encouragement.

That's very essential.

I know we have a half hour, sometimes an hour, and we try to, every day, give him three times a week.

It ends up being essential.

Rogers, Blair, of course, get in there.

You know, it's in an SCA.

And, of course, Rogers, very often, calls and so forth.

But you'll always see him in other capacities.

Uh, no, we regret it.

It's very interesting.

It's a fellow that doesn't need a standing patent.

He likes to just get the work done.

He's a high-tech man.

He knows, he knows that he would, he just has that selfishness that comes from a man who's got the job.

His name is Nathan.

He desperately needs help because he knows his job is wrong.

He's got to get the job.

And he's very insecure.

No, I mean in terms of what other people think about him.

He is old and terrible.

He's the worst of the bunch in a way.

What the columnists write about him, what is said around town about him, that kind of thing.

He says, well, there's some pretty vicious stuff where they were done.

Therefore, you've got to bring him in.

All right.

He says, and we're all going to hold him, of course.

The blood is going to be late, so that's no problem.

Harden and Morton.

What's it?

Harden and Morton.

Well, they're not Morton.

Morton's still a captain.

I don't know.

But he'll need to come in.

Morton is a... We've got to realize it's not a towering...

I mean, he said he's a good-hearted, good-intentioned guy.

That's why I put it that way.

The President said, it's your man, you're going to make it.

So he said, you know, you make it.

But you better drive a hard car.

Now, what do you think, though, if we couldn't?

I think, Bob, what we have tried to do, what we have tried to do, is just to be all too nice to the county from a social standpoint.

And we have.

We've broken our promise on that.

Do you agree?

Yeah, maybe.

Too much.

It's become too common, in other words.

It's common that God, I mean, a church, they're in, you know, they just, you know, it's going to be bad at so many events.

Churches, meetings, and so forth and so on, and additions.

in certain numbers.

So I think we should start cutting down on the cabinet.

And going up on the senior sub cabinet on some of those things.

Start substituting.

Because we haven't done nearly as well, except for a couple of departments, with the undersecretaries.

As Siciliano, after he left, jumped on me.

Or after he was leaving.

And said, you're making a mistake, why not?

including under secretaries, and dinner and social things with their wives, because it's the wives that matter.

And he said, the first time I was back, my wife and I had been invited to the White House for dinner.

was the Italian dinner, and it was obvious why we were invited.

And I've been here two years as an undersecretary, and I wouldn't say anything until I was leaving, and I'm saying it not for me, but for the cause.

No undersecretary was ever invited to the White House for three years when I started.

Yes, sir.

Siciliano was here every year at least once for dinner.

Was he?

As an assistant secretary.

And I turned back on this to see if that was true, and it wasn't.

The reason they did it is because they didn't invite anybody else to the event.

We should not go back.

We should go to the ice.

We should try to get everybody in once a year.

But his point is over

The next few years, you ought to try to get good procedures.

And the way to do it is don't take out your public, your non-government people.

You just kick some cat out of people.

I only have one old cabin officer to a thing and have some sub-cabin officers.

I'd be very impressed if I had some old cabin officers.

Because the cats have to be good.

He needs to be complimented.

This is actually starting something that will be very helpful in this too with these administration-wise.

wishing to tell and uh i hope she's encouraged in this because that will take a lot of the heat off but we have another suggestion that probably is a good idea which is to have a breathing career

Well, that's part of it.

That was scheduled for next Tuesday, but we put it off because everybody involved will have to be in this mayor's meeting.

But fairly shortly we'll be doing this.

But then, if that can be followed up by convening that group again, there's 200 of them.

And it races way down into the bank.

And sub-captain and senior and some junior White House staff.

Well, you know, you think of everything she's done and all she's done in this

Hundreds and hundreds of chicks haven't ever gotten that thing with someone.

But it's all outsider.

That's right.

No, they gotta go to the inside out.

A little.

But we don't need, we shouldn't overreact to this because it is, and so Donald said that.

He said, don't rush out and have, you know, try to, you know, just be aware of it when you have a chance.

Face those people.

Let's get back in the cabin about acting and overreacting.

We have done that.

We've given those goddamn votes.

And they've been saying all the rest.

I think it's all a pain in the ass.

I think it doesn't look good.

I think we just need to let that sit down now.

I'm going to come loose under this divine reign instead of our religion and turn it.

That's what happened.

But what I think is, what I do think though, I think I have a meaningless substance to begin with.

Do you agree with that?

Sure.

And that's not any problem?

That's no problem.

Now, the second point is, how often?

Once every two weeks.

I think more often and less long.

Correct.

Is the secret.

Okay.

And so let's keep them every two weeks for one hour.

The key there is for you not to be concerned when the meeting is chopped in an hour.

That's right.

If you worry about it, maybe you ought to give them a little more.

Yeah.

but they don't mean.

Maybe an hour is too short.

I don't think so.

No, I would try.

Let's try one structured hour meeting, which I'll chop at the end of the hour.

Can we do this in an hour?

Sure.

No, I think so.

I think so.

You can do anything in an hour if you're prepared.

And don't get it done in an hour.

You say, we'll redo this next time.

Or lay it over to a committee, you know.

You just go get your wash and see if we run out of time.

All right.

I would suggest that maybe we knock about five minutes before the end of the hour and turn it back to you and you can put a five minute overlay on it.

Yeah, give them a little lift at the end and say, look, you might like to know if you're going well here or better here or worse here.

You don't mean you have to call in Henry for a 20 minute briefing on the floor or something?

No, sir.

We're not going to start that stuff.

There's a tremendous amount of curiosity about what happens in cabinet meetings outside.

I hope no one puts it out there.

Well, no.

Maybe you can ask them.

That's what I mean.

Yeah.

It's good for anecdotes and that kind of thing.

Maybe we ought to move it that way for a while.

But I think we ought to consider, somewhere around the summer or the fall, letting a pool in to televise a cabin meeting for now.

Bob, John, Phil.

John, I didn't know that suggestion.

We did it twice.

Oh, really?

I didn't know that.

It was an utter disaster.

Everybody proud for the light throws.

Just frankly, it's better to keep it a mystery.

If the cabinet, they see these people sitting around there and talk and so forth, they'll say, why didn't this one say something?

Why didn't that one?

You know, and you can just see...

I'm afraid this is one where the mystery is a hell of a lot better.

But then you can still pick up on John's point, which is we can get more mileage out of the mystery.

And being a mystery, we can peddle it for anything we want.

I'm real open to it.

I'll consider it.

I don't want to consider it, but I do know you can check with Bryce.

I remember when I was a kid, seeing it on TV, it was awful.

Yeah, that was a pretty dull movie, too.

Well, so was this.

Yeah.

Let's go kill ourselves.

Well, I'll, uh, maybe if we could get a good spectacular subject, we could use the cabinet simply as a background for the reading or something.

The other thing we might do, you know, the Japanese cabinet was out of town when we were in Japan.

They were all down in the south end of the country, and their meeting was televised, but it was highly structured.

So the East Cabinet officer said something to the Premier about what his department was doing, and they went right around the tables at the ice room.

And the thing was obviously just a showboat.

Now, if you go out to Des Moines or Denver or somewhere sometime, you might have a take on that kind of thing.

Yeah, I think though that if you were to say, let's have a report from each cabinet for what he's going to be doing.

Well, he'd take the whole lot.

Well, he may or may not.

Even though he did, in spite of this, he still would all.

I think 80% of it will be on the subject of what he gives his name about.

But they'll be terribly interested.

It's the same problem, John.

You had a little problem, too.

Before you got here, a cabinet meeting to you was a hell of a thing.

Now you sit at them and you realize they're a deadly, dull chore.

And if you let the people in on that one, they're not, too.

Well, John's point might be good, though, in terms of just letting the cabinet meeting be.

Oh, I just wanted to ask on the region.

I don't know about the chart there in the region that has people from the cast ask questions.

I don't know any suggestions on that.

I would like to consider it.

Any gimmick like this is worth trying.

But remember, just look at the past experience.

And let's not get into that box where they'll say, Jesus is a captain.

Well, you might .

I would say that three out of four or four out of eight out of ten or four out of five should be on domestic issues because that's the people we're trying to attack.

And then now and then, I'll take five minutes and

I think the idea of leaving me by accident again is not a bad idea.

And then I have to make a little stop speech and get the hell out of there.

Because this is, I didn't even realize those things are essential to that.

Those people have got to leave that meeting with a feeling of sun lift.

My God.

You know, like, this is what we had.

Like I said, they all must have felt what if they were to go, what the hell, why did we come down here?

Maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, I felt that way.

Anybody else feel that way?

Oh, yeah.

Captain Hart, one of our people, brought us out and showed us everybody shaking their heads, you know.

Why do we do that?

Because you're all around here all the time.

Those guys aren't telling you.

See, that's the reason.

The value of almost the sole value of having meetings every two weeks is the value that that guy gets back at the department.

That's right.

Versus I've got to go to the academy today.

That's a very interesting fact.

You know, I was saying this when I was working at the White House.

That's it.

I call these folks, and I say, you know, we have to get together, and I'll be very glad to come over there.

Invariably, they say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'll come over to your house.

And I say, I don't want to, you know, I don't want any convenience.

No, that's all right.

Let me ask you this.

Are we also missing a veteran in other states?

The only way to do business is the way we've been doing it, John, with you and George.

coming in, you know, and explaining all these things.

That's the only way to get it done, because that's the way I like to work.

And I must say that the, it's the best way to work I've found in the, in the National Security Area.

In the national security area, however, I am, like, frankly, it's impossible, practically, when Henry is not with you and with George.

But I try to get Henry, I'm bludgeoning Rick Hagan once in a while.

I bludgeon him either to the Rock or to the Laird company, you know, for this, or more, I'll call them more separately.

And the point being is that Henry...

Henry, for me, it's easier just to talk to Henry and get to know him.

On the other hand, the other people need to participate in the thing that they're kicking into.

Now, the point that I'm making is use the time in the best way you know how, but whenever it is useful.

I would say don't hesitate to bring the guy in.

Don't make work out of it.

But whatever it is, just bring in the guys.

And as far as staffers are concerned, I don't think that we have to romance the staff and we're finished.

around here, you know what I mean?

If that's the case, the staff, I mean, people, fortunately, are people that, they're just goddamn good men.

And if they have something, they should come in when they've got something to say.

Whether it's planning that you come in, or waiters should come in, or coal should come in when they've got something that nobody else would say.

Why turn it down when you can really just say that you can do it?

That's why I called him a couple of times just for that purpose, and I don't know why.

Now, I want you and George, I think if you will, even though it's going to waste a little of your time and maybe a little of mine, I think you ought to bring somebody in now and say we thought we'd like to chat about it.

How's that sound?

Fine.

Has this, however, been getting to the vice-consultee and Romney?

Well, the problem with that, for instance, if I were to bring Romney in at the time, let's say we were going to get together this afternoon and I was going to discuss with you the civil rights problems in revenue sharing, Dan Romney would run all over the conversation.

And it just would not be...

productive at all.

There is some business you gotta get done.

Well, what we're trying to do is... You see that George's, and John's, and George Hoskins, and all that is, and that's what Henry's works on.

He comes in, he's got it all organized.

He knows what he wants to ask.

It's done.

It isn't the way to do business.

But on the other hand, there is this human relation that we have to have in mind.

And now they've got to give somebody a lift and somebody to keep.

Okay.

It never bothers me.

All right.

Well.

Unless you know what he's going to need.

No, that's fine.

That's fine.

There is this about the staff that, hell, they're going to stay here and they're all going to work like hell, whether we bring them in or not.

But I can go 200 miles on a gallon of gas with this staff.

If I can bring Cole or Whitaker or Morgan or one of those guys in, or even a more junior guy occasionally, just to take notes for me or something of this kind, so they can say they've been in the president's office for a meeting.

I'm a staff member in terms of the subject of the conversation, terribly speaking.

That's right.

Well, you remember we had Whitaker in the other day, and he made a contribution, and that was fine.

And then when we got to the end of his thing, he got up on the left by prearrangement because we were going to get into something that, frankly, I didn't want to get into.

Well, I had asked him to.

And there will be times when we have things that George and I need to talk to you about that we just really don't want to get out into the staff.

All right.

It'll work out.

But I want you to bend over more in the direction of bringing people in.

Yes.

All right.

Guys like Don Johnson from the VA, people of that kind.

You may have felt from time to time, like probably the AEC guy or whoever.

There are those.

Because I'll tell you, we've met other backers that help a lot of other people.

Yeah.

We'll try it and we'll see how we get along.

The social thing

i think can partly be taken up by this administration wives gambit if mrs nixon will will go for that on a spasmodic basis

It'll soak up a lot of it, because they get pressure from their wives.

That's where it really comes from.

Yeah.

Well, she's having them for this substantive briefing, and that's good.

But I think if she made a regular quarterly or semiannual or some such recognition of the distance of the administration-wise...

and uh maybe get them involved in their volunteer activities or something of that kind as a group there's a lot of horsepower there but the main thing is it will take the social pressure off the man yeah

That's a mighty force.

Most of the men prefer not to have to come.

That's right.

Most of the men prefer not to have to come.

And a lot of the wives prefer not to too.

That's the girl.

Not very many of the wives.

Most of the wives want to come.

Don't add to our social schedule.

In my social schedule, it's been too heavy to think about.

We've really broken our backs on that stuff.

He said, well, we're going to reweld the outsiders, I must say.

I would say that on the cabinet meeting we're doing quite well.

This thing is, I don't think we should overrule it, except for our interest in this issue.

Due to the fact that these guys have been talking to me for a long time about this problem.

You want to join?

We have meetings that raise the question.

No, I didn't have any economic policy.

That's why I asked whether that committee should be reconstituted.

Have you talked to George about that?

No, but I will.

It just may be that that, well, frankly, it's all the whole domestic council is what it is.

That allows Burt, I mean, me and Stan, Stan just considers himself an economic expert, obviously, from Congress.

And frankly, Hodgson and Meary said, here's your problem.

I think part of the two is this.

They see Coles over here.

They think that Coles is a labor guy.

And they think that Hodgson is his stooge.

And therefore, they think labor is representative and business is not representative.

Well, it isn't as much that, I don't think.

There's been a lot of stuff written just lately, particularly something in Nation's Business that was very strong on Schultz having taken over economic policy in the administration.

And that he is now numero one.

And I read this meeting primarily as a reaction to four or five articles that have run in the last three weeks.

Oh, sure.

And which they believe.

And I think what they're doing is setting up a counterforce.

You haven't got a salmon around, and that's a blessing.

But I really think this is an unfortunate outgrowth of all of those arguments.

And George has got to watch and be sure he gets ahold.

the way he conquered that idea.

He and I have been talking about that.

He's going to give a speech in Chicago in a month, so that'll be all right.

Generally speaking, I mean, he does have a voice.

Yeah, but we have to downplay that from the standpoint of the captain, you know.

The main thing, the majority of us, we're going to do it, but never say it.

We're going to do it with somebody else's mentor.

Let them all, that's why when they sit in, they've all got a few, they all think of things.

That's the deal.

You know what this is going to do, though?

What we were just talking about, when you were at that commoner's service meeting, how he would come and do everything you said.

If you just make the strongest organization I can imagine, argument I can imagine for my real organization,

The cabin's too large.

I mean, I could pat the asses of four domestic cabin officers.

I can't do it for me.

That's all there is to it.

It goes another way.

You could get four really good men that you can track with.

You can't get 12.

As a matter of fact, we have eight in the present time.

We have eight in the present time that can do reasonably well.

They have a certain kind of relative competence.

But it's all we are.

If you can get any, you see, if you had all you need, then if each guy was going to be a big man in this overrun, you could get better men.

You wouldn't have to have others.

Yeah, I mean, what do you mean?

You're wrong.

You're kind of a traditional sort of person.

You shouldn't have the guy.

You have appointments.

It makes sense.

You're a payoff.

But, uh...

That is not a bad appointment.

It is a bad account, sir.

You saw him?

That's my point.

That's what you're gonna find if you talk about this.

Well, and then he goes out and makes a signal.

He doesn't have a seat in front of the Congress.

Now, who has in there?

There are huge balls of guys.

There aren't very many people around.

Well, Johnson has a secretary of Congress with him.

He's a young guy.

And he has a fellow that's with the National Investor Conference Board now.

What's his name?

uh was it right at the end for six months young 38 or nine very very charisma type and laid a big egg over there just uh didn't get along with the business people very well they didn't feel he was really their guy he's retired he's off doing something else now

And another one of these foundation things.

And this guy is, I wish I could think of his name.

Trowbridge.

Trowbridge, yeah.

The thing's called a conference board now.

They took industrial out of it.

And it's a hot show.

He was with the national management.

The more I see of the national-wide business, the rest of the last I had these scores and things.

I don't know how the business can stand.

All we do is go to the meetings.

We go to meetings.

The crazy thing, like these guys today, is that it's a ridiculous bunch of people.

They're the same people.

that you'll see down at the homestead.

This is a lower level.

I know, but you go around to meetings of different kinds around the country, and the same corporation presidents are all there wearing different hats.

I saw Frank at all the civic stuff in L.A. You could go to whatever board you were on, and I was on about ten of them.

I'm sorry.

It was all the same people.

Yeah, yeah.

You're right.

It was the same guy.

The art center, the sports arena, the justice center, the art center, the golf center, the fire center, all those people.

Everyone in the elite.

Well, that's part of it.

All of your traditions.

Why don't you actually run that cabin living thing next week and get it over with?

I don't think it's, I think it's a similar to that.

What the hell is the problem?

I agree.

I'm going to go to the league, but I don't have to be pushing something else.

I don't have to do that.

No, you're going to go by, but I'll just go by and say, no, we're going to give you the rating.

I don't know what you thought of it.

We know you have to speak on some of these things or ask questions on what you're doing.

We haven't had wise meetings on occasion.

And we'd like for you to have them.

There's another little clarity thing.

We haven't had the wise academy.

Yeah, I thought of that.

It's a deadly damn deal.

I don't want to do that until we haven't stopped competing with them.

They've got to be...

Haven't you done, after you wrap up Laos, you'll have to have the... You ought to ship one cabin to that, to the... We have been having the sub-cabinets, all the assistant secretaries and the agency people, to meetings in the State Department regularly to talk about substantive issues.

Yeah.

It might be a good move at the next one of those that we do have for our wives over there, which would take some of the load off Mrs. Hicks.

All right.

That's on the list of issues?

Yep.

All right.

And that's just a two-hour job.

But isn't the load over here, the only thing is, you bring the violence four times a year, and the first time you meet somebody next to you, you don't do this in the area as much.

Yeah.

I know what we can do.

We can rotate the group through the cabinet then, let Mrs. Rogers have the next time at the State Department, let Mrs. Mitchell have the next time at the Justice Department.

That's a great, you know, that little round they went through the first year of the cabinet, a lot of times they didn't know what they were doing.

What happened?

Each one hosted a session at the department, and they went to the Interior Department, found out what they did, and got some little presents, you know, all the junk.

Well, except this time.

Go down a lot.

And let them hold half the subcaptain.

No, this was just the 1,500, whatever.

That's all.

That's good for the whole subcaptain.

Members, wives, and half of those in the White House staff, senior staff people.

All right, good.

Why don't you do that?

Start it in the White House.

You don't want to do one next week.

I would like to, for two reasons.

One, I'd like to get it out of the way before California is possible.

Two, I think it would be

Damn good to get this wife thing started.

Get it on the road.

It's a horrible week.

The mares, the dairy guys, and just everything is next week.

I don't know why.

It's a bad week.

I'm looking forward to it.

I'll see if it can be worked out on the schedule.

Well, it can be on Station 1.

Hell yeah, it can be.

Just work it out and I'll go.

I mean, my participation is a start, Bob.

I could work it any time of the day.

What social event is there next week?

None, is there?

Oh, yes.

Well, Monday night versus the one-on-one interview.

Monday night is the other dinner.

Upstairs.

That's for Romney.

Wednesday night is the GOV.

Oh, big night.

Thursday night is the standard standard.

Received by the social workers.

Well, that's all right.

You can try the night GOV.

Why don't we do a Friday dinner?

Um, let's, let's, Bob, I want to know, before we go to California again, Thursday, it's hard to put the staff over there for the, for the business.

If you're going to have dinner tonight, you understand, it's hard to put it through.

Why not Friday?

What about Thursday?

Did you say this man isn't here this Thursday?

You can do it Wednesday if you don't mind taking some time out on Wednesday.

We're keeping you clear.

What's Wednesday?

The GOP fundraiser, which is fine for the staff here.

Fine.

Wednesday's fine.

Take it out.

Take it out Wednesday.

Here's the cab.

Meet you in Frank.

Wednesday's fine.

Mrs. Nixon on Wednesday has a...

Friends are going to California Friday.

Well, or Saturday.

We don't matter.

Saturday's Friday.

Saturday.

Well, why not Friday?

It's just better than you screw it up.

Have it Friday.

You got in a cab at 80 Friday.

What is that?

We'll do it Friday.

I don't need to go to California.

I can go Friday night.

Stay here.

We were shooting them to do something on the way out, and they're looking for the possibility of doing something on the way out.

Let's see what we've got.

But don't put me off.

I want this meeting done.

Not putting me off.

I want to find out what we've got on the ground.

What I meant is, I just want to be sure the women will get it done.

I think John's got a good point.

We'll get it done.

And then you see after we go up there, the car shows the bottle over there.

Mr. Rogers could pick it up, and the Attorney General could pick it up, and do the whole, this is, we did this before, if I could sub-captain and have the same opportunity every day soon.

As a matter of fact, that wouldn't be a bad thing to bring up with this, Captain.

And say you have a meeting with this group in the White House, and your wife's had them over, and it's a good group, and we ought to give them a hand.

I'll put it back at 2.30 Thursday, Tuesday, which is when it originally was.

They told me it conflicted with the mayor's.

I see.

I don't know what the mayor's saying.

I see.

I just heard that last night.

When is the end of dinner Tuesday?

Tuesday night.

You can do it before that because that is not the table.

The upstairs, see.

That takes you upstairs.

So you can do it down there Tuesday.

It's the best night.

It goes 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock, 7 a.m., you know.

That's a good time for it.

What do you work on at the time?

How do you take care of your wives?

Now that, when you're talking about Etherington for a second, you know you have that in there.

Yeah?

Tuesday.

And she says, maybe John, I guess John knows too, that you have committed to Etherington that you would host a White House dinner for the board of directors of the center.

First, I have never met Etherington in my life.

So sorry for that proposition.

I don't even know the committee.

Now I'm going to get to the articles and talk to them over here.

I mean, was there any advice on the suggested dates with Ehrman?

And it's also under the impression that the approval of the White House has been made.

Our numbers show no approval.

No approval.

It has been discussed.

When Ed Aiken was here and met with Rumsfeld and Finchney, it was discussed.

And we said we would put it in as a request, but there's no commitment.

I don't think you should have a dinner, Bob, unless you're starting to be really well-planned.

And we've been down the road in this volunteer thing all day, every day, every day.

Nothing ever comes up.

It's going to come up, and that's your dinner, too, Steve.

And we have it worked out before so that it's been brought up in the presence of that servant, Romney.

He's going to be there until we get out.

Well, then, have him and Heather to meet them before, or whoever, whoever the hell it is.

What kind of a dinner is it that they're talking about?

The dinner board boarded directly to the center.

So goddamn, if I had known that, I'd have had that Tuesday night.

I don't know who that is.

Oh, it's a huge board.

There are 50 people on that board.

I know what I mean.

Well, I could have had it Tuesday night.

I don't want to sit around and gasp for that or anything.

That won't put off.

Now, the other dinner, remember, was Saturday.

Now this would be some, I think what they have in mind is something in April or May where they have this whole 50 people and their wives in, and that's a big, like they did for a year or so, you know, somebody else.

And they grouped in with that one.

We did at the Volunteer Center.

I can.

Oh, really?

Did you do it with Bud Wilkinson?

Sure.

Do you remember Bud?

We did it around here for dinner.

We did one on Max Fisher.

It is Max Fisher.

That's right.

I had it there.

Max Fisher.

That's right, Max Fisher.

And Bud and all the rest, and everyone else.

And what a great time.

They just went and sold you out on the floor.

Several people got up and made very warm statements about everybody else, and then nothing happened.

I'm glad to say I avoided it.

So we did.

Could we have it as a reception?

After their board meeting or something.

They could have their own dinner.

Like the NAD.

I don't have her on that.

They dinner at the White House.

Well, you're going to get, I think we better get it settled.

They better be informed.

Because they'll mousetrap you for sure, you know.

I wouldn't do it.

I didn't realize there had been one before, but it seems to me that...

I don't think so.

We can get along without them.

Well, maybe that's the only way they can raise the money.

No, but this board is not money people, by and large.

Then I'm not interested in having them.

It's Arthur Ashe and people like that.

No, no, no.

I don't think so.

I think it should be a reception, Bob.

And then they can have a dinner over at the State Department.

Yeah.

Yeah, let them have a dinner there.

Let it be a reception.

What wrong they put on the dinner?

As it lands back at the State Department.

Sure.

Good.

Pointing out that we want to do something different from what we did in Seattle.

All right.

That'll get rid of your problems, no?

I think so.

It really is hard to feel that all these things could be better ended.

Maybe I'll feel that way when I get back.

But you're rather satisfied, aren't you, with the care that our crew is carrying in the cabinet?

It's not like we meet once every two weeks.

I agree with you, but then not.

I mean, you see, Mike Holtby's trying to get his seat by himself to come to politics, and I pushed him over it, too.

And the other thing is, well, no sign of that.

Well, if he does, I think essentially every two weeks he has to be changed to the same.

Fair enough.

And then on the social things, do the sub-captain.

But I think with Bob, I just want to be a, I just don't want to be, go so far as to be absent.

Let's just pick our friends for that.

I don't think that's much of a... Yeah, that's fine.

That's fine.

He's done a little round of... Oh, all right.

Yeah.

He's gone, too, for a while.

All right.

He's taking a holiday.

Well, you know, on average, you have that with some outside people.

Well, yeah.

You have to stand and see... Well, no.

He stands his other dinner.

All right.

is having a series of dinner parties, who Richardson is at his home, and he's

He's doing a very smooth job of cultivating the Congress and the White House staff and introducing some of his people to the key congressmen and to some of us over here.

And it's a very adroit job that he's doing.

It's a smooth job.

Yeah.

It's very intelligently planned.

How the hell we ever ran the department before he got there, I don't know.

He and his wife are walking around that department and going into all the offices

And his wife was organizing the wives into an ATW auxiliary, and she's really in there with both feet.

And they're really taking that thing over.

I think they're quite proper.

All right.

I was actually right to do this with him.

He should be able to do this.

Because he has the worst job, I think, almost, because of it.

Because, you see, Henry's ought to be there.

Henry's fighting the doctors.

He's got a few big issues.

And he's fighting about what he thinks are important.

John, who is an intelligent man,

You have to sit with him because that's all I hope.

It's like a Romney battle.

But he's nothing but drives a busy man crazy and sits there and listens to something and has to show your interest in the turn.

Right?

But he's got a great ability to do that.

He doesn't let himself become a busy man and that's how he accomplishes it.

He moves everything out of himself.

So that he can just move around and make a big place.

Keep the things open.

As fast as grinding away, I just have to go out in the sky.

Just walk away from this.

Hold up your book and leave.

Oh, I know.

This is a very important area.

They run a bunch of sheep.

Take out that same animal.

Yeah.

You know, I wonder, I wonder if Roy, maybe he doesn't think it's useful, don't make it an iPhone game, but I wonder if it really makes any difference if he tells them the facts.

The idea, the idea that I am seeing those people for the first time,

They know all this stuff because they've done it.

We've never done it even before.

They know very intently.

Yep.

Rob Nelson.

They know the facts that they... That they're going to put in the fiction story that they want to put in.

Yeah.

And then the facts come up in the fiction story.

In the light of all that, I think it's probably a good idea we didn't try to do this conference today.

I think it would look a little bit offensive.

I think I wouldn't worry about it.

No, but I don't think any prediction, particularly what the price is, is the best thing to do.

And I'd rather have that easy story that is on the domestic price.

It will be.

It wouldn't be if I got in there and had to comment on SST, you see, on a lot of other things.

I did it in California, so we got it right away, so.

Doing this one-on-one thing, this is the first time in a dozen seconds we've allowed this.

If you were to listen to them earlier, we ought to allow follow-up and so forth and so on.

I hear you allow that.

Sir, so one guy thinks it's a good idea in our case, and then everybody else thinks it's a bad idea.

The other networks will say it's good because they think they're going to get better.

But Frank Corbett or Jerry Terhorst or whoever is in the line, because it isn't him.

I agree.

Which, ask the question, of course, Corp Air reaches them, but most of those guys only reach thousands of people.

Yeah.

They know damn well you're reaching millions.

All right.

He was in the field, uh, last week.

He was in last week, yeah.

I hope you'll be in this weekend.

I don't want you in this weekend.

The next night is normal.

I don't imagine.

Unless he's got another pole on him.

I could just, I know you say that letter is not in the structure, but I'm saying that.

I'll go on and say the next thing is what you did.

I would say that if it had been, it probably would have been even worse than it was.

That's exactly right.

If it had not been in the structure, I agree.

Then they'd say, well, what are we talking about?

Yeah.

It isn't going to work.

Now, did you get a report on Cal?

Okay, now let's... Yeah, okay.