Conversation 471-005

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I told you the other day that Paul and our boss are out here.

I've been so grateful to you for the way you've gone about putting on that, taking on that program up there.

And you were right.

I mean, you know, I used a term at a little broadcast the other night where I said, I said, pictures don't lie.

They don't tell the whole truth.

And that's really what it all gets down to.

We thought you were most effective on that.

I didn't get to see it.

My wife saw it.

That's the important thing, what your wife saw.

Tell her I said that.

Yeah, she's a gracious lady.

Let me tell you this, that I do appreciate it very much, and I want you to know that...

My feelings on this SST that you're well aware of.

The thing I want to tell you is the thing I told you about yesterday.

I feel very, I go to the SEC strongly.

I mean, let me argue the ecology thing or the economics thing, but honest men can disagree on those things and so forth.

I'm greatly concerned about the United States dropping out of any kind of great venture and leaving the field to Soviet Union or any other country for that matter.

I'm concerned about that not originally in a national sense, but I think it would be something with the American spirit that we would regret many years later.

But let's leave all that out and come down to the key.

I have a personal commitment to the population that I, as I have on the EDM, will examine this program on that next year, right at this time.

And I'll look at that.

And we've got that on the Dr. David Science Advisory Board.

They'll examine it.

If there is any question on the ecology of the funds, we'll respond.

In other words, there's no, as you know, there's only a prototype of that.

We have no intent, no desire, of course, at all, to ever do anything that would perhaps make this country worse than it is in terms of its error.

quality of life and i know it's a legitimate concern on a lot of part of a lot of people but uh the uh the ideal since this is a prototype and not the the uh and i have not a full commitment since i as the president have made the commitment i will first

I'll oppose it myself next year.

If they come in here with the evidence, I'll oppose it myself.

That's the reason why I asked you.

I didn't call you in.

Now, I don't know whether your feelings are so strong that you, you, you, you,

because of support of those circumstances but i wanted you to hear directly from me in case you in case the ball was still up there so that you could build your way but i want you to i want you to know i'm not trying to pressure you it's an old friend i i feel very strongly about the program i think it's terribly important to the

to this country, to its position in the world.

Those are the things I've got to think about.

I think it's important to have that record that George Meade is farming, and he says, gosh, they don't realize this.

It's not just jobs.

Everybody says, I'm for the jobs.

Sure, I'm for the jobs, and so forth.

But he says, I don't want to see the United States of America, whether it's space or transportation, to be number two.

That's his attitude.

And that's my view of it.

Well, let me say, Mr. President, I couldn't ask for any further assurance than what you've just given me as far as the ecological questions are concerned.

I will say that while I think there are some questions that have not yet been satisfactorily answered, for which possibly there are not now no results, I will say that I think the

the ecological considerations have been way over-exaggerated and I'm not impressed.

very much my three-fourths of the wild statements that I read in this regard.

A couple of things happened.

One was, I'll take just a moment.

We had a cutback in local airline service in one of these seven years.

We have this now, Frontier, Western, we have this now, and we have, when I was governor,

It's been a steady increase in fewer planes and fewer city service.

I went to Jackson and he arranged for me to see Fort Brown.

Since that time, the CAD has come out and said they will work to restore the subsidies and

This is reassuring.

But during this time, these ecological questions came up, and I said that I could not support a program that would put as much money into an SFC plane as was then automated with the study.

And with the steady deterioration of local airline service, our people weren't learning how to get to Denver or out of Lake City or the village.

We lost the trains.

We have, I suppose, not more than two-thirds the service in one of the airlines that we had six years ago.

And we've lost and we haven't got a dime in the budget for any of our reclamation projects, and we've got one and a half built.

These are all situations that have encouraged me over the last several years, Mr. President, to say that I would not support the SST.

Now, I'm sorely grieved that it becomes as important as I know it is to you and to the country.

I'm in a situation of having told

and sell several hundred people specifically that I will not support the SNC.

In good conscience, I just would find it awfully difficult to go back on what I told them.

Well, suppose that we could work these things out.

I think on the airlines, there's no problem there.

I understand that.

I've written from it, too.

I've been all through that.

I understand that problem, Cliff, and I'm sorry that it's in that fight because we shouldn't call it into consideration.

It may be too late to do that, but I assure you that we can take care of that.

There's no problem with that.

There's no problem because I think that's legitimate and you can't expect anybody from Wyoming to go to the SST and not be able to fly it.

Casper to Billings.

I don't mean that you can't fight, Casper, but I mean, why don't you?

There are fewer fights than there used to be.

Sheridan isn't served on the one fight now.

I've been to Sheridan.

I know you have.

Okay.

Well, what I was trying to say is that as these things have come up over the years, I have kept a consistent position in saying that I just felt as a matter of priority that these were more important to my own people.

And I've written to many people.

There's no way you could tell those people that you have talked to me, and I believe that we have a reversal of this situation.

We're going to have a reversal.

I understand, I don't know whether that's possible.

Let me say this, I certainly do appreciate your position.

I haven't lobbied one person.

I haven't said there is one man in the Senate who can say that I've tried to persuade anyone.

You know, I was sitting there happy in the carriage.

I guess I just couldn't be honest, conscious with myself and be talking to myself.

If anyone could persuade me, sir, he could.

I understand.

Right.

Senator Hanson and I talked briefly in this presence.

We never put pressure on our friends.

That's the truth.

I know that...

Senator Hansen and others, many of them your closest friends, Mr. President, serving on the Republican side of the committee on Interior, feel very strongly about the undersecretary matter.

And I've told him that this is going to be resolved as Senator Hansen and Senator Allen and Senator Jordan and others would like.

So what I sought to indicate to Senator Hansen, Mr. President, was that whereas

You wish you could do everything that would be of the prime interest of the people of Wyoming.

You are not only not insensitive to the senator's feelings, but you've taken some affirmative steps recently to make the senator's position, in light of 72 coming up and in light of the right thing to do, more palatable.

I think his problem is that he's having, you know, his commitments, that's the problem.

It's the new evidence problem, Mr. President.

It's the question of what you and I know about serving the Congress when you have to sit with mail and you have to have a new situation or a new development.

Well, I, as I say, in fact, you know,

You've been a soldier here for so long, and we want you to, we've got to make your decision based on what you do.

I can only say that as far as those, as far as the airline situation is concerned, as far as the, I don't know, your state,

My insurance.

We're going to ask for anything.

I just didn't want to talk to you.

Let us know what my interest was.

Well, I can sure come down with the heavy heart I need with what it does make me happy.

I appreciate that.

You have been soldiering with me and I appreciate you coming down.

There'll be another battle.

I'll have my fingers crossed today and this thing carries on.

Well, you might just go to the men's room, too, you know, an excellent swing.

Gosh, you know, of course, I kind of need a bite down here, but the one thing that I look back that I shouldn't have done was when you write somebody and say what you're going to do ahead of time, this isn't too smart, and that's the trap that I've gotten myself into.

Yeah, I understand.

Okay.

Thanks a lot.

Thanks for coming down.

Good luck, Ben.

Back in a moment with Senator Donovan.

Okay.