Conversation 471-007

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Oh, Karen, how are you, brother?

How are you today?

Nice to see you.

Nice to meet you.

I'm very happy to live with you.

Interesting.

Yes, sir.

I appreciate your chance to get together for a few minutes, but I've told a bunch of other men since the day I got here.

In large, you're hopeful, that's why.

I don't hear what I've told Barb, that isn't it.

And last night, I had a guy throw up a two-page statement that I'm just going to be serving the record on behalf of the SSC.

So I'm going to vote for Sean A. SSC.

We're 48-48.

Okay.

You know, I talked to George Haney, he is, I figured that he would go, I called, I talked to Haney this morning, Haney said that you were calling last night, crying, you know, pretty in tears.

I laid aside, saying I'm sorry, but I, my people from Minnesota, got a bag out of it, and Haney was furious.

So you lost him?

We had him against us.

He's in the 48 who were against us.

And, of course, you know the Margaret Chase mess situation.

No one knows how she's going to vote in the poll.

Well, can't you hear me now, Margaret?

We're appreciative of the letter that you sent with respect to Portsmouth.

Does she care about that?

Yes.

Tea.

Coffee.

Adolescent tea.

Tea.

Tea

As you know, it's probably the least we can do.

There is a letter to North.

Letters to all three people.

One to her, one to Adrian, and one to Wyatt.

Not to Adrian.

North to her, one to Norris, and one to Wyatt.

And Wyatt.

Who do you want?

I wanted to talk to you, Mr. President, because actually we got here yesterday at the policy committee meeting.

I don't know whether I had a chance to talk to you about it.

We had a number of things come up, one of which was the possibility of setting up a

a series of meetings over the course of time, whatever you think is appropriate.

And most of all, myself, to be able to try and feed you what we're getting back from any of the calls that were out in the field this morning.

Let me just give you a feel for what Percy said yesterday.

He felt that our review of the Howard case study was not helpful.

This is how you presume a war situation.

Well, he would disagree with that.

And I was copying that up.

And I said that he thought someone ought to continue to give him books, too.

I don't want the public to find them around me.

I said, this is good.

Come on.

I don't know, either for you or for the public or for the whole.

Let me just start out by giving you a couple of things that have bothered me on that.

First of all, I brought with me Annis and Tom, which I mentioned to you in the second one.

And almost word for word,

So it has nothing to do with me.

I don't expect talking about it and going over those who were in there last year and those who appeared this year and the same thing apparently happened last year.

So there's a definite reason.

We don't know who it is.

We don't need it.

but believe me there's nothing

except for the continued meetings, because guys have got right to take those things.

The only difficulty is that you can't talk directly.

That's the problem, and that's exactly why I brought up the fact that maybe we can have some meetings with the three guys that I'm sure are going to be speaking out on this, or are going to do something.

I'm trying to dig things in.

But I really was upset because this thing is almost verbatim.

As far as the questions that I asked, it's just almost as if somebody had a paper cork in there or something.

And your replies were almost verbatim.

Not that I took notes, but I think you were doing it.

I didn't take notes.

Well, I take notes, but I don't take notes from our questions or your answers or anybody else's questions and answers.

I don't read them.

I had lunch with Bill Chisholm.

Let me just give you this in a little bit more detail.

Bill Chisholm was the former president of Oxford Peer Company, a long-time friend of mine, two years behind me here.

They merged with Apple, and they had a bad part for the Temple Corporation, and they had a problem with the plant up in Maine.

At that plant, what they were doing was to not only create paper from pulp, but they were also going and catalytic the oil, which was releasing some mercury into the river.

So they had the Environmental Protection Agency do a study on this when they heard the mercury thing was bad.

First of all, if they found that the fish there were half of the permissible level, and so far as the mystery is concerned, that was a mighty deal.

They got an injunction from the restraining order that the district attorney put against them on the ground that they were dumping 26 and a half.

This was an announcement made by the governor of the Justice Department.

the interior part, near the river.

Well, they took an analysis of their abdomen, and it was 2.4, not 26 and a half.

So they called Hickle and told him so.

Now, Hickle continued to issue statements that they would continue to keep a little different.

He had 26 and a half.

Didn't have a corrective figure at all.

They got the same treatment for bronchi on CVS.

They went into court, and they agreed with the judge before the restraining order was even considered that the view of the back of Mercury seemed to be in this environmental problem.

They closed down the plant voluntarily.

The district attorney said, no, the administration needs a victor.

And as the district attorney and federal attorney, district attorney,

Yeah, he did go out and say, yeah, no, it's kind of .

So the judge said, you can't do that.

The judge said, well, they've already agreed to put it on the plan.

I said, it doesn't make a difference.

The judge wants a victory on that.

And the judge said, well, I'm just not going to do that.

And the district attorney said, well, we're going to file a restraining order again anyhow.

And meanwhile, it tickled.

And they did put it down on the plan and have it reopened.

Dick will continue to say that they were continuing to pollute the Kennebec River, or whatever it was, with 26 and a half pounds of mercury per whatever period of time mercury was measuring.

And this really got, at the same time that they merged at DuPont, they had done a lot of work on a substance called NTA.

In order to get lead out of gasoline, they could put NTA in, which would work better.

It's the thing that would cut down the pollution coming out.

They've done an enormous amount of work on this, and the catalysts are motors, and by NTA working on general motors, they haven't worked on any kind of catalyst at all.

All of a sudden I got a call from the H.W.

saying that we will either issue a release saying that you have voluntarily withdrawn N.T.A.

under full care of the pollution.

or we will issue a release saying that we have ordered you to do this and issue the file.

This is the name of the substance that put all the work that they've done on that without any kind of further testing or any kind of just draft limit.

So, just in marks of paper and apple, we usually give fairly substantially appointed tables.

When did this all occur?

Well, it was just before Pickle was out.

So, that period broke it open.

I'll start with Osmond now.

I'm sorry about Bill, because he has a good friend of mine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's too bad.

We've been trying to keep these in control, even in the case of .

And we're trying to keep the troops through our control of the operation here.

Of course, we're trying to keep

It's going to be a very difficult problem.

Not only is it going to be a difficult problem, but it's going to be a difficult problem.

With all of our friends, I mean, I think like Proctor, General, and all the rest, frankly, most of the ecology is the only issue.

Most of it, really, really, you know, I mean, it's funny, but on the other hand, it's a real issue.

It's a real issue because a lot of young people, a lot of others, you know, they get, they write a lot of letters and so forth.

Like Barge Canal in Florida.

I mean, our staff around here was elated because 80% of the letters we received favored what we did.

It's probably the wrong decision.

birds and all that sort of thing but the canal was halfway through which had probably been finished but we did it because uh the ecology did get on the alaskan pipeline uh the pipeline should be built should go to alaska morton is backing down or has up to this point due to the tremendous pressure of those who are afraid of snow spoil the beauty of alaska

I get more than good on this thing.

Well, I do.

And frankly, on that one, of course, that vehicle was right because it was Alaskan.

Of course, Stevenson's everything all the time because of the pipeline situation.

And, uh...

I think we'll come out all right on that as well.

I think we'll still get it done.

I've got Mitchell working on it now in his devious ways to try to get reasonable and just go through with it.

Because the pipeline should be built through elastin, not through canon.

Period.

That's all.

But what it is, Peter, is that, you know, it's the same kind of people that oppose SSG for a while.

They're going to get skin cancer.

That's the best thing that will ever happen to me.

They're going to get skin cancer.

What about our military?

They're going to get it very well.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean there aren't some very decent people in the movement, that there aren't some real problems.

Sure, there's water that needs to be cleaned up.

But on the other hand, in terms of this attack on business, that's what concerns me.

They're attacking business.

the oil business, they're great manufacturers and so forth, and making it economically unfeasible for them to do it.

Like the automobile, they destroy the automobile business if we have to interpret it as it is.

Awful enough, I don't know how they're going to be able to do it.

But I can only tell you that on the Chisholm thing, I thought that we...

But what it does, I sit up all the time.

It's a very tough problem because you've got a lot of people building, I'm sure, all our interior bureaucracy that's around here.

I'm going to use every effort they can to make sure it's the new thing.

And also to be confident.

Interior is the new thing.

Interior, of course, is the new thing.

But let me say that whenever you hear about problems on the ecology we're involved in, you just get over here.

We have to work very behind our minds.

There are ways to promote some of these things.

I don't think the issue is all that big.

I think it's a group that's terribly interested.

We don't use 100 of what we've got.

You know, really.

All right.

You know Alaska, you know Florida.

My God, there are thousands, thousands of acres.

A lot of them.

Whatever.

Well over 11 to 1.

Yes, yes, yes.

Oh, I know.

Your polls will be against it, too.

Absolutely.

Because they build it up.

Oh, I know.

It takes a lot of guts to vote for it.

I know.

I just hope it's all right.

Well, by the time it comes up, it'll be over.

Just a couple more things.

Right.

Farm Reorganization, I brought up yesterday.

Yes, sir.

At the policy lunch yesterday, Donald Young, when he heard about this, he said, well, we're going to let the agriculture vote.

He said, I guess the farm vote is very important anyhow.

But he said there might not be a set of people engaged in farming at this point.

But he said there won't be any farm vote for the next administration, the next election.

Frankly, I don't want to be this blunt, but I've heard it from every single person in every North American.

The only ones who might feel different are the corporate farmers.

They have a couple of bulls, but the guy who was trying to run a farm for a ranch, if you will, on a court, on a ranch in New Jersey,

They've got terrible problems as it is.

They think now that they can totally abandon it.

And unfortunately, when they, every person who talked to me was doing things for them, nothing is said about it.

A guy down there, I know, pointed out that when they were getting on the burger, it was a food lunch program, so they were really excited.

to take care of surplus when you released it.

The buying of what was at hand, at least it was, a few pence of this kind, which were done under the park, all of which should have had a good reaction, not because I'm upset about it.

No releases put out, no nothing was put out, no electronic information.

Now the agriculture department, Michelle Woodman, what you were trying to do to support them,

So you may want to strengthen your publicity and what you're trying to do.

This business of dividing the agriculture department into three departments is really not being done.

Every farmer thinks that he's underpaid, over-pressured,

There has to be a second glass for it, and every kind of defender has an audition that's going to have to wrestle with three hierarchies instead of one.

And they're really up in the air, but it's true in Colorado, it's true in Iowa.

Even though you may never have got the total field there, as soon as you're in office, that's good.

It's bad.

This is one of the worst areas.

And I bring it up with us in 1968.

You won all the three states' buses from Mississippi, which you will remember very well, I'm sure.

The first person that's ever been able to win was that kind of a distribution of votes.

There's one other one.

Oh, I guess that part of Texas.

You're right.

I'm going to touch on something which you can get off the mat about, but which I think is important to touch on.

This is the vice president of the press.

I've got to say this because I think you'll know about it on your chances and also all the problems that we're facing.

There isn't anybody from the 30 down or whatever the group is who has

I will say this has much credibility as well as the vice president.

30s.

Yeah, 30s.

I'm talking about 31 and 38.

They're early up in the air, right?

They think his speeches are out of order, but they're not.

I don't think you can read both of them.

as far as he's concerned.

I think, first of all, he ought to drop the attacks on the press.

I don't think it's better.

What would that help?

Well, it would help the stories of the press, as you said.

It's not going to help the stories of the United States.

Can he rehabilitate at the end of the year?

I don't know.

Maybe you can if you have someone else.

If he's on the ticket, you're gonna have to face that.

I'm not trying to throw him off the ticket.

Oh, I understand.

But this is talking to across the country.

Yeah, my own kids, the people in the colleges that you talk to, the first thing they say is, wow, think about that.

Right off the bat, he wasn't at hospital where he should have gone now.

And it's not helpful in that age.

Granted, he is.

The time that this money was zero was for a while, since I dropped it.

And it doesn't look good, but I want to be able to be young and figure out the voting level at that age.

I don't know.

It's a bigger block at that age group than I had before.

I said that I do all kinds of things, that I get a cassette out and go around to the guys who are running and get them to give two minutes of legal review, and I said I wouldn't do that under any circumstances.

That's a winner.

I wouldn't let him do it to me if I were in my position.

I wouldn't let him do it to me in my position.

We lived in one of them, for example, things like that, and I wouldn't want that at all, ever.

And he said that being that Jack Anderson is calling tomorrow.

That's right.

And it hasn't been said at all since then.

Good, good.

And there's nothing, no discussions, Peter, about what type should ever get out.

He just types it.

Correct.

Yeah.

Colin got up yesterday and he said that obviously 45 people couldn't come down here and take up all your time, all the time.

I don't know if that would be a good idea, if we could get the force of energy this way directly.

And that somehow or other the meetings with the leadership could be a little less stylized.

That was the word that was used.

that the briefings as they have gone on are briefings on decisions which have already been made from here.

The input has not come from those who

I think that would be possible.

They have a lot of programs.

Other programs are overused, but the leadership meeting should go to this to report this basically.

How are you getting along?

How are we getting along?

I think this will be helpful unless there's talk.

And Gordon brought this up.

He said, you know, we stand on this real good opportunity to be able to just talk and discuss some of these issues.

I don't have an idea.

We could break it.

Part of this, I think, is generated by the difficulty that people are having.

The number of programs that you send out, you get a lot of criticism.

All this independence, in fact, the Republicans shouldn't be doing this anymore.

The criticism is getting too much.

And I can't absorb it all.

It speaks about it.

And I think, really, that the key and is one of the extreme truths is the recognition.

I think so.

I don't know what went into the truth, but I think it's part of the issue.

The only fact that is valid is that they don't trust their own people back home.

That's true.

And you keep putting the Democrats in a position where they're saying, we don't trust the people back home.

There's not one thing that helps us at all, at the very end.

And they say it publicly, and it doesn't seem to hurt them.

I guess if they go home and say, well, I don't trust the people back home, then that's the same thing they can't say.

Of course, I trust them in Minnesota and Wisconsin.

But the fact of the matter is, they don't.

Peter, wasn't the meeting with the mayor yesterday a big plus?

A number of Congressmen called me this morning, Mr. President, saying the front page of the Washington Post showing three Democratic mayors criticizing Muskie and had a wonderful meeting with the president.

That's a big plus.

It's got a mind of its own, basically.

It's not the other way around.

And I think that's a good thing.

It's a good thing.

That's it.

Unless, unless they don't get it back.

I get off.

Yeah.

I would like to have a share of what he got off.

He's tough and he follows through and he's a very able lawyer.

I know because we were against him in the suit.

Well, we're going to... Those are the type of things that I'm talking about that I wanted to get to you directly because I think...

They're going to look awful good next year, as you well know.

We have to do what we do this year in order to look good next year.

If we hadn't done it this year, we'd look bad next year because we'd have a hundred tanks rambling away next year and down.

The other point is that on the economic issue, this point of...

The only argument is how fast.

My own view is don't let it go too fast at the moment.

I'm not so concerned about reaching the 1065 and getting to say that it's a target.

I'd rather have it.

Great.

go charge him in 72 rather than to move up too fast now, take our NOx right now and everything, move it too fast right now.

I don't think of that, we won't have money supply and all the rest in added amounts, but I think that if you're a theory of a fellow like Milton Friedman and others who are

quite correct.

They said if you charge it too fast now, you might have a dip in the summer and fall of 1972.

We don't want to have that.

So sure now.

So have a good feed.

And let's have the dark day go.

And it's, but it's moving in the right direction.

The stock market, you know, I think one of the reasons that your sales are holding up as well as they are is because of things that...

Last year, one of your great fathers, Stockbrook, was loaded out and was the son of a bitch.

But you know, with the dollars at 9, 10, people feel a lot better than once it's 6, 30.

Absolutely correct.

They think they've got more money.

They really haven't.

They haven't done it.