Conversation 472-013

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I had Henry coming, and I thought that two or three of us were possibly about to die.

It came good, just with his presence.

Shoot.

He's not.

We're good.

We're in a dirt lane.

All right.

They probably will want you to see a couple.

You've got to give them a chance.

So we've got Buckley County.

I know he's coming in, but I don't think they have a chance to win.

Yeah.

They've got, the attendance count now is 47-4, 45 against 6 undecided and 2 absent.

So if we can pick up about 2 of the undecided, we've got 2 of the 4 in the undecided.

Great show.

I'll tell you this, they never got a harder pitch than I gave them this long ago.

Crowdy is one who can, you know, maybe he had marketing in there, some grounds manager.

But I think there's something a lot of that we should never point to.

We should make an error to drop off and retreat from greatness.

So that we'll need to never not be overcome.

Kind of an SSG.

Yes.

That's good.

I agree.

We elected members of the House and Senate a year and a half before they were named elections.

And as far as senators are concerned, probably a son of a bitch has got in and brought in the name of God.

And then he got the guts to sign it.

He got in because we put it in.

I went up there.

We bought the election for him.

We bought the election for him and tried to put the Senate there.

I can't.

I paid for him, I did everything, and now the guy ducks out on something.

I swear to Christ, he's not gonna get around.

He's leaving.

How are we supposed to drive any of the different systems?

Let's talk a minute.

I thought you asked the best question very effectively.

What is the situation on the

You met here, you were talking to John Skelly and you were talking to him.

What is the next step?

The next step is for you to see him.

And he's enthusiastic.

We checked back on the

He understands the point.

The major thing he seemed to have misunderstood when I talked to him was whether he should handle the mistake or not.

He does both.

And he's also got to handle television as a media strike.

He will spend most of his time foreign, because that's where major media is.

But he's got to do domestic, too, because he knows domestic.

He knows television.

He's too valuable a man to have him not flip in like this.

But actually, he prefers to do only foreign, but I think... Sure.

Everybody wants to do only...

comes and goes and gives an evidence 200 times when he would be legal and he won't.

Because they override Tiger Pax when it comes down to it.

But I think that's what they're trying to do.

You know, they're trying to figure out what they're doing.

He'll know.

He'll know very well that there'll be times when it gets to, like, when people want to, you know, because of domestic, suppose we're doing something under the organization or under the sheriff's, you know, or the blacks.

It's more that kind of thing.

It's more like the blacks or the, uh, or us.

Or if you start getting riots in the cities, how do we deal with that?

You know, it's that kind of, it's that kind of strategy.

It's all related.

Well, we wouldn't get into agriculture.

The economy could get into it.

How can, on a broad basis, you know, how do we deal with getting confidence filled up in the rest of the...

the big strategy he's a decent guy and of the commentators because he also knows

All the rest would just be an extremely valuable element.

You know, it's where the Greeks couldn't... Ha!

That's right.

Ha!

We will not have immediate control on that.

I think the president's going to have control over it.

The bunker just comes, so we're going to be planning on that.

I think we're going to send you back with a reason to figure something else.

But I think we're going to have to build on that.

I think we have an impressive amount there.

You see, we have plenty of other things for that.

We're going to have plenty.

And also, I don't want to pull them all right now.

I think it's a good idea to try and do something with this thing right there.

And it also gets an impression of panic and concern.

Yeah, it might.

And they can actually get it done that way with everyone.

on your telephone call, yeah.

It's very interesting.

First of all, we got this New York overnight rating.

We won't get the national record for a couple weeks, but they give this overnight rating out in New York.

And we only got 11% share of the audience in New York.

A sudden rating.

And so you were against the movie on NBC, which got a 42% share.

and the Doris Day show and then the starting of the Carol Burnett show on CBS, which got it, Doris Day got it 25, Carol Burnett 32.

The national projection of that, which they always do, they can project the New York way to what it would be nationally, would be an audience of about 10 million nationally.

Unless New York usually does project that.

But it's very, they have a point by which they project .

Because the same competition would be in the other kind.

Basically .

Yeah.

Because, see, they re-ran it on the west coast.

They ran this at 9.30, not at 6.30.

So you were in prime time, the western time.

They followed their normal network pattern.

That's all right.

That's fine.

We should expect an entity in our own way.

In our own calling, we just did 100 calls this morning.

They're going to do the main calling this evening.

We may get more people at home.

But out of the 100 calls this morning, 100 completed calls,

15 saw the show and 85 did not, which would tend to coincide somewhat with the rating.

What was that rating?

Well, this shows a rating of 7, a share of 11.

So that would be the rating.

Now, the rating would be 11%.

Now, that's the share of people watching television.

The rating is the percent of all homes or of all people that saw the show.

This 15 would be high, based on that.

Seven.

Would you think the rate would go up for this thing?

Maybe just a couple.

Well, I thought the rating would be about a 15.

Would you be twice late?

I guess it is.

We sure did.

Very big play.

And you know, we,

On anything like this, you give people the choice.

And it's just like that Kennedy conversation.

Remember I showed you the rating on that?

It was practically nothing because they ran it at different times on that.

People know that people just aren't that interested in having it.

And that's absolutely true.

We know that.

We don't know that.

And we asked these people on general reaction, and two-thirds of them had a favorable and one-third unfavorable.

Ten of the team, in other words.

Then they said, do you prefer a single reporter, small group of reporters, or large press conference?

And seven said the single reporter, one said a small group of reporters, and seven said a large press conference.

which is kind of interesting.

It's even spread.

Nobody liked the small group of reporters.

The conversation in other words.

It has to be approved or disapproved.

There was nine approved, six disapproved.

These are practically all old people.

Eight of them were 50 years older.

Six were 30 to 49.

Older people.

Nine Democrats.

Two were told that.

So it was heavily Democratic.

Yeah.

So the people who are going to ask you.

We've got nine for Democrats and two for Republicans.

Right.

Of the 15 and some of them.

There isn't enough numbers to make any difference.

So it will get a lot more to see if we get a better reading on it.

Right.

So we approve this.

Whether they have to do it or disapprove it, the program can tell them that what person is sending this job.

This is our standard approval system.

The reaction to the program, we go on the very favorable, somewhat favorable, like the Harris Project, same as we've been on the others.

But that's a pretty good percentage, considering they were mostly a Democrat.

It's a hell of a high percentage of approval on him and the job.

That's what I mean.

See, it's older, it's 50, mostly over 50.

Older people do approve a little bit more, a little higher.

They're not going to be the same type of people.

Whether they're Democrats or Republicans, you get a higher approval than older people.

In the comments, you are checking around in the comments, that the congressional comments, the ones we got at least, were not very favorable.

Half the people said that the energy failed to come across.

The president should know the growing credibility problem he has across the country.

He was talking to college students and their comments are they don't believe what the president's saying.

This could go into the problem, the president should be a private senator.

Bob Tapp said it was too long to keep an attention span and it was not enough of a confrontation since it appeared intimidating.

The content seemed okay but it wasn't dramatic enough.

It won't do any harm but it did not have the hoped for impact.

Now that doesn't check.

with any other group of people.

I mean, it's the political group that has that kind of reaction.

No others did.

And the blacks were ecstatic.

Bob Brown did his check with black leadership.

And these are, you know, up ahead of the National Insurance Association.

The black insurance executive said he handled himself very well with difficult questions, was frank and honest.

He has guts.

And his statement on housing in suburbia was clearer than any president has ever made.

And the head of the National Bar Association said, good job appealing the question.

Too much time spent on the Vietnam issue.

He didn't have enough time to give an in-depth answer on the city.

Of course, that's what we take care of.

Maurice Dawkins of the Opportunities Center's statement about the presidency was excellent.

His statement clarifying what he meant by forced integration was good, and the majority of people would agree with him.

However, something should be said about restricted covenants.

We'd like to hear more about domestic crime.

President of the National Business League, he said he didn't have enough time to develop answers on housing and domestic matters.

He was forthright and he looks like a president.

Robert Watkins, head of the National Medical Association, blocked down for two parole blotters.

Yeah, all blotters.

Much more emphasis should have been made on domestic matters.

You're up to a certain segment of it.

It didn't come through very well.

There was a good clarification of open housing.

I had another view of what he meant when he spoke about forced integration.

This time it was very clear that I agreed with what he said.

in the general session's book came off very well.

The one-on-one situation was very effective.

President, equal opportunity in higher education.

I apologize.

The amount of time he works and the people he sees came off very well.

I thought his statement on housing seemed as if he's looking to accept the status quo.

His statement about peace at the center was extremely good.

He should be more of an executive than he is.

Judge Thompson of the D.C. Court, he was absolutely right on the housing question.

Generally speaking, he did a very good job with some very difficult questions.

And it's a damn good life reaction.

And you have to, as Bob said, you have to continue to reiterate the rationale behind the work.

I mean, a bit more...

George and most others just came along very well and did a good job, really strong.

George, since the Minnesota State Chairman's speech, a very piece of the credibility was discussed.

His instincts tell him that credibility is the most serious problem.

Moments of lightness and laughter could have used more.

The President's frankness helps get credibility also as openness.

We need more credible people speaking in favor of the President.

The recommendation to follow through with Smith's suggestion to have the Senate Foreign Relations Committee over for special attention.

This will show flexibility and open-mindedness of the President to take the lead on the whole matter.

I have them all.

John Andrews, President, came off very well, but again, gave the impression that it was the rightful one of confidence and confidence.

The third bloke heard it, and there came the new state chairman to check.

to stress the politics that Congress is playing on this to make this credibility look bad.

Big board, as you know, has always had a good analysis.

This is a very important success.

Substantively, the opportunity to communicate the real meaning of lawless in terms which people can understand, perhaps for the first time, and also believe.

A format particularly effective in terms of understanding the President's character and motivation

The one-on-one may well be the modern equivalent of the fireside chat of the 30s, because the viewer finds a personal relationship with the President in his own living room.

The naturalness of a conversation with one other person provides more personal communication than the three or four commentators.

The President reacted well with Smith, which made the things particularly effective.

The President was at ease and relaxed, and would come off the lot and sit down.

The first half of the program was necessarily serious, and rightly so.

The last portion of the program involved more than Nixon's personality.

It was particularly good nation in winning.

That's why he thought it was the best thing he ever did, and particularly liked the answer to the vice presidential question, where he smiled and admitted his considerable charm.

Technically, you prefer shots where the president looks directly into the camera, so he's talking directly to you.

That's right, too.

You should set it so you can correctly.

That's the fault of Carruthers.

No, that's the fault of ABC.

Carruthers moved it six times yesterday, changed the chair setting and everything else, and they can't move it now.

You see, I can't look at the camera, and I can't let it go away for a minute.

I told Bob yesterday that the head of Paramount TV production told me that he thinks we've got the best men and carotids in the business for this sort of thing.

And he volunteered, I didn't even know we had to pay the rent.

Carruthers, Carruthers did not set this up, no.

Carruthers is exactly what it is.

I got a note from Carruthers.

Yeah.

I was unhappy with the camera angles while we worked with the network crew to correct them.

For most of the day, we were not totally successful.

President looked good, and the General was next in the team.

Mark Good said the same thing.

I'm not happy with the camera angles, camera touch, and lighting on the background was bad.

I'll submit a written report on that.

They know what's going on, but if we don't produce those shows, we've got to work with them.

Moore sums up that he thinks this is the best means of conveying himself as he is.

And when he does that, when he hands out it, it'll get a big audience.

When he does that, his people become more credible and acceptable.

See, the other networks won't carry it, never.

The only way you're gonna do it is maybe the way is to go to a non-network guy.

But see, we talked about doing this kind of thing on educational, and there you go, and we'll get two or three million people.

Instead of whatever it is, at least ten million, maybe more.

Or no education, at least.

Or math or media, or any of those.

They all go way, way lower.

This gets 10 million, that's pretty good.

Interesting congressional thing.

The half-bill that we would expect, because he's basically done it.

I did not think that could.

It's just a dream.

Oh, yeah.

Half-bill is basically done on the piece that we...

And I think the problem is that basically he's also beginning to edge away from the war, so they all are looking for some grand slam.

Thank you for today.

I think so.

Brock, I would take seriously, because Brock is... Well, he's a...

He's been a solid guy.

But he didn't like the humorous thing.

I think he's wrong.

I think you're right.

You had very little, I mean, you didn't, there wasn't any forcing or anything, there wasn't any, you weren't sitting around laughing through it at all.

You had a few light times.

I thought as a performance it was the best one that I've seen.

You were a little lively and you showed passion.

It's interesting, you get this on all of them, but...

Well, let's show you that they're great.

What goes for one doesn't go for another.

It's interesting, though, that some know that half of them, half of the old folks, like to refer to the press conference and half of them prefer this.

But nobody refers to it.

Only one refers to it.

Well, I'm inclined to think, though, when we've done the three-on-one, old people like it at the time, so it helps.

Did Harkin mention it to you this morning, though?

No, I didn't.

Because he said last night, it's the best format we've had yet.

The person completely relaxed.

And he said, I would have liked it better if he'd spent more time on the domestic issues.

But, of course, they're like that.

Well, he said so.

He said, but, of course, Smith controls the pattern, not the president.

And he said, it's too bad, because he could have done so well on the domestic issues.

This is interesting, though.

Hodgson.

It says, I thought the hour show was too long when the president was interviewed by the four commentators, but this one, one-to-one combination was excellent.

The president appeared serious, concerned, confident, and resolute, especially impressive when he made it clear he doesn't think about popularity or the expedient when making a decision, but rather takes the long view.

Then, here's what's interesting, he says, if Cliff Martin thinks that the president spent too much time on foreign affairs and not enough on the domestic issues, I disagree.

It's Cliff's job and my job to articulate the administration's position on domestic affairs.

And that's, you know, that's a dang good point.

And it really is, nobody else can do it for us.

And it's to a big degree true.

Volcanic.

Volpe said, I especially like the part about his not trying to be popular, but trying instead to do what he thought was best in allowing for the country.

Frankly, I resented the part about Secretary Volpe not being able to see the president when he wants to.

I have never so much as hinted at that since the beginning of the administration, and I understand as well as any of the demands of the president's time.

I will say, however, that I liked his answer to the question.

Actually, the reactions I suppose of our people in Congress are not really the best.

They may have things they're thinking about.

I didn't know what you were talking about, Cap.

Cap is not a strong man.

He's being weasel-y.

I have to defend the contract.

Are you weasel-y, sir?

Well, I wanted to get him a little bit of a step up.

I see the three things when I did the three things.

Brock always makes it unambiguously clear that he's going to be with us.

Uh, yeah.

That doesn't do it.

Well, we have a, the problem about it is that with congressmen and senators, really, particularly those who've got a record, I think really they're our leaders, we, our Republican congressmen and senators.

What do you think?

Are we done?

Should there, is the Rumsfeld, how close is Rumsfeld?

Yeah.

He was like very, very high.

He thought the questions were very, very tough.

And he says the fourth question came the next day off.

A lot of people thought that he was slow getting started in the first question.

I know the first of my questions were sort of out of place.

He said he finished very strong.

The piece that the senator done then seems to me was just terrific, an excellent job on that.

And earlier, you know, I was just ecstatic about the piece that the senator, I mean, he wants to be sure we use that.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that these congressmen and senators are

Well, they're all so attuned to criticizing them rather than the three of them.

They're naked praising them, right?

That's a particular point.

Except for the Southern Democrats like Stennis and you, though, it's not.

And the Republicans are particularly bad in this respect.

They're negatives.

They have been an opposition party for a generation, and they haven't really had a responsibility for the government and being in the minority now.

They still don't assume full responsibility.

Well, having done this with the other networks we go on, don't you agree?

Sure.

And you get a bigger audience with the other network.

Of course, they have a bigger choice, have a bigger lead.

Yeah.

That's competition.

That's what I've been saying.

That's right.

and there's just a hell of a lot of people that watch whatever movie's on TV.

Yeah, they tune in to the movie.

It's our ritual.

It's like going to the movies.

That's really true.

That's right.

And another thing, too, is that we think they follow the political.

We read the papers and check to see what the president's on and what the people don't do.

I'm told a lot of people get to go on the television.

They've got their weekly review and it's a damn thing.

I think, too, you have to figure that out.

Well, a few sweaters there are concerned, you know, a lot of people are just sort of designed, you know what I mean?

They're just not going to get close to God.

You see, it's always just, you know, they don't want to hear about it.

They just want to, you know, get you.

The great weapon you've got is the ability to take all three networks and then you talk to half the people in the country.

And when you do that... And I think you can make, and you should make, many of the points you made yesterday on the war in your speech on Troopers, George, because you made one of the most effective.

Roland Evans, I had breakfast with him this morning.

He said it's a crime that how irresponsibly people are cutting you up, that what you're doing is the right thing, and you know, you may not ever write it, although he's written pretty well on love.

He hasn't cut us up on it, and he said stick with it, it's the only thing you can do.

And he thought it was a superb...

He said he thought it was a superb performance, whatever, and that he thought it was very effective.

There's been a suggestion from Chuck and Schultz and others that you might want to have breakfast tomorrow morning with George Meany.

No publicity and unannounced.

The purpose being just to let me know the door remains open with the emphasis on laws in Asia, Middle East, NATO, all that, with Henry there, he went into that, or Sheldon, economic, or both.

And apparently, of course, the races are fueled by some point, and you're going to be a good time to do it.

It's okay.

There was something else I was suggesting to Dean with the executive council, but they didn't hold on.

No, not that.

I don't think this is the time for that.

But Dean's working for us, incidentally, on the SST college.

They don't know whether he's working hard or not at the moment.

No, really.

I think if they, I forget who else is going to try to call him.

Well, I have an idea of what the breakfast sounds like.

You know, there's a lot of work to do.

We'll have him at Stolz.

Thank you.

Well, why not not have Schultz then?

No, that's aggressive, so that it's not late, so that it's not domestic at all.

Just say, just say, it's just going to be on me.

Yeah, he's the guy that, I mean, whether it's, you know, whether it's plus or minus coverage, they're going to pay attention to him.

But if you know he's the first one, then God damn it, he's serving.

Well, ABC really built that up, you know.

First time.

As far as their rating is concerned, that isn't going to bother them anymore.

Do you think they can sell the show anyway?

Public service, anything can sell.

They know the reality.

Any of these things, you just don't get a big rating.

What is your judgment on the thing in terms of, you generally just don't like to do one-on-one because of the fact that you deny yourself so much of the audience.

And yet, I still got the idea of that preemptive at times.

That's right.

I, I, I wonder if the knowledge, I don't think, I believe you ought to do all, you know, the hard stuff.

I think you have to just, just go ahead and let it go and don't worry about it.

I, I'm sure you'll lose some audience in the second half hour towards the end.

And also we want to remember that Congressman and others have talked about this, you know, we, we have, we have basically bought what I've said, generally speaking, we have down there in Congress generally.

We have just a bunch of super critics.

I mean, they're really not trying to buy anything that's good.

Don't you really think that's true?

Here it is.

And you get that on anything we ask them about.

I mean, what do you think of the revenue check?

They go, well, you should have had a little more here, a little more there.

What do you think about allows?

Well, you should have sent more troops, or you should have done it sooner or later.

You should have gone on television, or you should have gone on the internet, or you should have gone on television and announced it, or you should have stayed on television and not stirred people up.

And they do.

They're just incredible.

It's really an awful league.

As Henry says, it's a negative bunch of balls.

That's it.

I don't want to decide it now.

I'm just going to feel that.

I'm not sure.

What do you think?

I mean, it's not the California thing.

We're not having them.

Maybe the Arkansas.

I'm not having them.

Unless Eric's giving you this, you better get him to the...

I'm a little more team now.

I'm just getting ready for two o'clock in the evening.

I briefed Aronson, Ford, and Anderson this morning about love.

Aronson, Ford, and Anderson have been going on?

Yes.

They, they... Against him?

Yes.

What time did you breathe, Alex?

Around 7.15.

about not having the people out there run all over who possibly are not going ourselves to California?

No.

I don't think, the reason I don't think we should have the people out there, Mr. President, is not to give the impression

that there's a special emergency.

The other side of that, he carried that argument to his logical experience.

He's making a statement because of the moving too far in the other direction and indicating that we're not concerned about what's going on.

As a matter of fact, I think a lot of concern is about the way it's dealt with.

That's right.

I think we should show that we're relaxed.

You know,

We're not concerned about it.

Yeah, I guess I've got to blow up.

In fact, when I go out and I say, well, time won't tell how this thing's working out.

Don't get yourself involved.

That's coming through.

That's the line they're all...

Even the anti-people are waking up now.

They can't measure the success now.

And we'll be like this for a year.

Actually, John, that's looking fairly well for you.

After this...

How about the whole answer here, though, in terms of .

I didn't think, well, it's a hell of a lot of work, isn't it?

It has to be a very, very strong plus, because you're going to look a hell of a lot better there than you're going to look through the eyes, and you don't need to cut tears and prints.

That's right.

to the 10 million people to see you.

And as I mentioned to you last night, the play on the radio and that thing was just incredible.

Not just on ABC, I was surprised, because it obviously was considered a news tape.

The CBS radio went on and on and on with it last night.

As if they were broadcasting anything practical.

And then there was the lead news item, of course, that he made news of that on the CBS.

That's Lyley.

He called me first thing in the morning.

He said, in other words, I can go ahead with $12,500 for 19 months.

I said, listen, you've got the directive, Mel, now you just keep quiet.

I'm not so worried.

And you can go with $12,600 for one month.

One thing about it is that it certainly, we've been on and knocked on the idea of having them repress cars.

But I think the whole business of visibility is pretty well knocked on at the moment.

It's there on the other side of that segment.

Oh, yeah.

We're trying to do what you said.

We have to either be

Too isolated or too visible, one or the other.

Yep, that's right.

What would you think, as it launched your campaign with the movie industry in California, of dropping by Sam Goldwyn's house and giving him a medal of freedom before he died, so he couldn't do it for sure?

Good that he ever had it.

Alright, he's confined to himself, he couldn't leave.

he will die sometime soon.

And he'd be a hell of a judge for the movie community out there.

So I think I'll be glad to honor the old man well and find good in the people that are in the movie industry.

He was such a great, colorful guy.

I'm getting the principles of

I got your paper.

That was yours?

Yeah.

Well, they're explicating in good order there, somebody.

Well, that's actually, it's a miracle.

Well, at least we didn't get, we didn't get much banging around yesterday.

You know, I think really, I think the point that I made, I sort of dredged out all his figures when I made the work, where I said 1,800 languages, which I... No, that's exactly right.

Four of them in English.

Yeah, that's a hard point.

That's a pretty good point.

That's exactly right.

That's what they said.

Now, the others have come back on that now, too.

Their commentators are starting to notice, well, maybe they're using different numbers, but it was the same point.

They were saying out of 16...

Yeah, died at 13 and dead at 11, sir.

Yes, yes.

That's the chance with this, sir.

11.

I hacked behind his leg and I gave him the wrong 6-year sentence for the same sentence.

Yeah, I'm trying to understand.

So they gave the same one.

Jack gave the same one for the same sentence.

Yeah, it was 18 and 22.

How did they come out?

Yeah, they killed a lot of...

I always believe when they claim that they killed a lot, then they admit it.

And also when they admit that they suffered a lot of death.

the Marines, the South Vietnamese Marines.

Actually, if you look at the situation, I must tell you, Mr. President, quite candidly, that the thing is over.

Our people there, our people led us down, not the South Vietnamese.

I will let you see, I will do it now when it's over.

Some of the back channels that I sent to Wagner to show to Abrams, I said to him,

No plan has ever been carried out for more than three days.

It looks like a broken play to me.

I didn't want to bother you with it, because there wasn't anything you could do about it.

They let us out in the first three weeks.

Then they complained to you that I was interfering too much.

Then they wouldn't let Haig go out.

They didn't let me.

Well, they said that Laird said he was going to, and he didn't let Haig go out.

When Haig could have done it, Abrams went every weekend to Thailand, for Christ's sakes, to see his family, while we had our whole thing riding on this thing.

And then they had the operation started.

Basically, Westmoreland was right.

When I had Westmoreland over here, he said, head for that southern place, consolidate, and then make a raid.

As soon as they heard that in...

in Saigon, they said, we'll show that son of a bitch who was running the operation and went for Chipotle.

You always said, and you were right, that we have to trust Abrams.

We couldn't order from here a different sort of operation.

Do you think Cable has been there too long?

Yeah.

I think they were... That was...

I owe it to you to tell you this.

I think it was a bad show.

And considering the sort of support these poor South Vietnamese had, they fought extremely well for six weeks.

I'll show you if you are interested in Cable.

I sent out...

I have a question.

No, I'm not trying to prove that I was right, but...

but that they had warning, I said, don't forget if they, in that table I said, if these, my that was sent on March 1st, I said, my question is if they're going to be driven out if this keeps up.

And remember when they're driven out, you won't be able to say that you killed more of Hanoi's troops than ours, because that is not how it will look to American viewers.

And so I said, put in your reserves, it will be, because there may not be another battle you'll get.

Well, they waffled all over the place.

Frankly, I don't think they should have gone to Japón.

The disaster started with those three regiments that were put in Japón, San Ram, Hilltops, they couldn't be supplied, and they were the ones that were ambushed on the way back.

This is my post-mortem of the military side of it.

Uh, it isn't Moore's fault.

Moore reported, but Haig's impression is that that military command out there has got too ingrown.

He asked me not to tell you, but I can't do this.

I know it is.

They've got too ingrown, and Abrams drinks now in the middle of the day, and, uh, I really think we ought to consider replacing him.

Now, that's going to

create havoc, but... What the hell is there to do?

It doesn't make any... Was the one responsible for that air shot not go wrong?

No.

Not bad, I think, wasn't it?

No, he doesn't screw things up deliberately, but he should have had his deputy up there in I-Core, and he should have... What about the information we're getting from him now?

Was it accurate?

No, I think the information, he doesn't lie to us, but he just didn't put enough push into that operation.

Well, if he got more push, it would have been another division.

He might have gotten hurt more.

I don't know about that.

Well, Mr. Benson, I think the mistake he made was he got focused on his own plan.

And when he ran into unexpectedly heavy resistance, he did what commanders too often do.

He kept going with it.

If he had headed them out and cut their own stair,

They could have stayed two or three weeks longer, and that, to us, wouldn't mean politically all the difference in the world.

They had come out in April when we could have said it's the rainy season approaching.

Uh...

I consider the operation a major achievement.

Even with all the screw ups.

I think it could have accomplished more.

It could have accomplished more.

And they didn't look at it from our point of view here.

I mean, they did.

Well, they, we bombarded them.

I must authenticate last once a week saying remember to bunker what we have riding on it here in terms of what this president has done.

You were here when he made the decision.

Please make sure that we have advanced information, that we are never left in a position where we have to act

after the event.

Now, they owed it to us.

If after they took Chipone, they had told us they were going to get out, we could have said we've got a great victory and they're coming out.

And nothing would have had to be changed.

That's right.

So what do we do now?

There's nothing we can do.

I think the South Vietnamese did extremely well.

And if you analyze the pictures they show of these soldiers clinging to the pads of helicopters, it's interesting they're wearing their field packs and carrying their rifles.

This is not a rabble that's running for the helicopters.

These are some combat soldiers coming out with their weapons.

And the...

Sure, you don't want to be the last guy left in the landing zone.

That's, uh, I don't know how any, how Americans would react to this.

They got out in good order.

Well, the line that should really get through, I hope somebody repeats it on that.

I told you last night, Bob, this line that I used.

Pictures don't lie, but they don't tell a whole story.

Yeah.

That's a very, very powerful line.

It sure is.

And it's his own law.

It's the way to end.

You know, the first time, you made last night what to me was the first time the point made effectively, clearly.

Maybe you've done it before and I missed it.

The point that, sure, they get a lot of pictures of problems on our side, but there aren't any television cameras taking pictures of what's happening over in the North Bay to the East side.

Nobody ever realized it.

Everything we see is in our base camp.

You never see their base camp.

You never see their bloody business camp.

Even with all the screw-ups, they were absolutely on their own.

With this operation, they had to invoke communist China.

They were afraid of an invasion.

They had to put in their whole strategic reserve.

And they must have had... Actually, this is a case where the money can't have to be lost.

uh, with these massive airstrikes and they have these... Yeah, what you say is true.

They may have suffered more of a defeat than we think.

That is right.

That's what I'm convinced of.

They may not have the punch, and time will tell.

Now, the other thing you've got to be aware of is that, uh, we now know that all the neighbors and all of these goddamn planes

We're going to go forward in our withdrawal.

The only one you've got to consult with is Q.

From now on, what I mean is, Bunker is to tell Q that that's the way it's to be, and then we'll make the announcement.

That's just not that way.

I don't think it's going to make a hell of a lot of difference anyway.

If our analysis is correct... Our Air Force and the rest of the conductors themselves couldn't count on my...

They've been out there, and they've just farted away too much.

Mr. President, if our analysis is correct...

They cannot start a major offensive within this timeframe anyway, so it doesn't make any difference whether we pull out 20,000 more or less.

They've already agreed to 75,000 by the end of this year, so we've just enough years.

By December 1st, it's 100,000 by December 1st.

Yeah, that's like a lot more.

I'm sure that's at the rate of over 14,000.

That's right.

In other words, they can only agree that the military wants them to do $75,000 for January 1st.

They want that first.

We're suggesting $100,000 for December 1st.

That's correct.

I wouldn't even argue with it.

Just give them the ticket.

And, uh... Don't give them the ticket.

No, but the last time, that's the only way you get the thing, you get the impact out of it, was by not telling them until that day.

I'll tell Buck, I'll tell you, and then I'll go and tell you.

You must know, but then, he told you before, didn't he?

He told you, and he didn't tell Vanessa Buck.

Well, but that's the one...

He didn't all the way move it, but he will move it.

We know this.

You can tell Rogers.

Because he'll keep you quiet.

That's right.

That's just what I do.

And that's very worthwhile to me for other reasons.

And he let Harry over to John.

But then, also, you've got to tell Larry.

What'd you tell him that day?

Well, you can't tell Larry the head of time.

That's what I mean.

You told him that day.

You said, I'm out.

That's what you did last night.

You told him that day.

I told him an hour before the broadcast.

I told him that night.

John, I'm out.

I just think the president's going to say...

Yes, this is great.

Well, I'm going to sort of tease him along as if it were 12,500.

And that the only thing that you're thinking about is the number of months.

As if it's whether it's four months or six months.

I'm going to tell him that you're thinking of just going to November 1st with the treasurer.

for the election.

Maybe a little less and make up for it later.

But it all will affect the election.

Well, the election?

I don't think so.

I think...

I just want to be sure that if you've got the word that Margaret should sit on a key, I'm sure he doesn't have any problems while he's out there, which is...

He may decide to do it on an anti-American platform.

That's his problem.

I think the big thing we ought to do, the best thing we can do for the Vietnamese now is we've got to get later to stop playing this shell game on equipment.

We ought to establish a level of equipment we're going to leave with them.

And we ought to have a long-term economic program or a middle-term economic program and then get out in a reasonable... First with this 100,000 and then, frankly, in November, whatever we need then, we should announce.

Make a major effort at a negotiation this summer.

I told Franker what I had in mind doing with the North Vietnamese and he said he'd go along with it.

He said he'd go to the North Vietnamese until things quiet down and I think early May is a good time to go.

Yeah, well, I'm gonna take a hard look at it.

The deal with the way this thing's garbage and all, I think that's gonna be easy then.

And a lot more, Mr. President.

They know that a lot of this stuff is cosmetic.

That's right.

It cannot be with all this magic bomb bombardment.

They must have suffered substantial casualties in that.

I think the fact, for example, that you're... that the man comes up with nothing at the present time is an indication that you're falling back.

No, I think the fact... well, Caprino has said, even coming up with something, Caprino has said that

They haven't had a Politburo meeting on foreign policy because they're spending all their time on domestic policy.

I think this could be as much related to the party Congress as to anything else.

Because in every other respect he was churning along and eager to...

He said the trouble with Saul is that they always have to get defense and foreign policy jointly, and foreign affairs...

They probably have a problem.

And it may be that they want to wait until the middle of April when their party conference is over.

In regard to this thing, my own view is that the, if you look at the military planning, I would consider what we desire.

First, the intelligence with regard to enemy forces, tanks, and so forth is extremely difficult.

They didn't tell us about any tanks up there.

I understand, but we didn't know what the enemy forces were, what they were behind there, and so forth.

Coordination certainly must have changed.

I think when it really gets down to it,

You just can't depend on the generals.

He's a World War II general.

That's all we got around him.

At the present time, I think he's done well up to this time.

But the convicts and generals, I mean, it's a very artificial capacity to find the generals who are the man.

Now, in this instance,

I'm not so sure at all that the so-called knock-off blow could have been enough to disrupt because I think the enemy's strength was considerably greater than you thought considerably greater than they thought and if you had joined another division it might not have been decisive I'm not so sure about the other division I think now in retrospect it should have turned south it should have turned south it would have put more of a buffer in between the helicopter and would have been shorter

They would have been within artillery range.

I think the whole line now, the problem is the line I took last night, that is, you take a separate line, you take that line first, and the fact that it's the, I don't know, the success of the, not the success of the achievement of this operation, but it's achievement, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that,

The other thing is that the line is a very strong assault, such as I read last night, on those that want to put a deadline.

They put too many of those investors right in the eye.

That's just what they're doing.

They're trying to give time for you to see the end there.

I have every confidence that with all these screw-ups, Mr. President,

The reason I didn't know they had more in there was because our intelligence didn't tell us there was more.

I said you didn't.

I meant we went through all the stuff.

We made this decision.

I have no regrets about it.

But my point is that, or, of course, you're checking it all.

He was relying on you.

So here with all those guys, you've got 300,000 Americans on there.

What in the name of God are they doing?

We had to do it all over again.

And if we knew how it ended, I would have to say I'd recommend it again with the one proviso that we would position the withdrawal a little better.

Yeah.

Let me say this.

I think you've got your feet here.

In my opinion, thank God we did it.

Oh, sure, we did a wrap on the poles.

But imagine what would have happened with these hundred tanks if we... My point is, we had to do it.

No, we didn't.

a threat to 100,000 Americans in I-Corps.

What?

A threat much bigger than they could ever realize.

Mr. President, if these 100 tanks had rumbled into Hue in August and September, all these guys that are now yelling about the immunization would be all over us.

And at that time, we wouldn't have had the air power concentrated, we wouldn't have had the gunships in the position they were

We'll have enough there in August and September to take care of the remaining tanks.

Oh, yeah.

I don't think they could launch a big offensive this August.

Well, they've still got 200 tanks, understand?

They have 300 total.

Yeah, but that means they'd have to bring every last tank they've got into South Vietnam.

And it means they'd have to pre-position a lot of supplies before they can do it.

And find combat units to do it.

I don't think they can do that.

It's very important to see what I say.

One of my concerns is the political situation in South Vietnam.

We can take the heat here, but if they have any friends, they've got to help me out.

You know, I'll wait a couple of hours.

I'll wait till six.

Well, seven at night is eight in the morning.

I can do that.

We don't think they got the hell beaten out of them, Mr. President.

They think that they had a victory.

Now, the one thing we cannot yet judge... Well, what we can't yet judge is how the junior officers, when they get back into their S areas, how they'll interpret what happened.

We just don't know enough about that.

It's an interesting thing, getting back to the programs and looking at our range of views.

You've got on the one hand some people that they chose your home.

You have to use all the license.

You're taking your older folks here and come up .

trying to have us do what they like the best, what they like the most, breaking comments or something like this.

But, from the standpoint of some of our people, some of our people like humor, that's the thing.

Harden liked it, but Brock doesn't like it.

And some liked, some liked an hour show, some did not, some thought it was too long.

There's some like emphasis on foreign policy.

Hodgson, for example, did, and Harvard did, if you want to talk about the domestic program.

I think Henry's put his finger on the two guys there.

The two of them, well, there's no question it happened, right?

He couldn't have been there.

I was taking him on falls every five minutes.

That was happening with everyone I was taking.

And you were also sort of beat.

He doesn't like to stand up.

He doesn't like to go away.

Everybody who came up with a positive thing came up with a, like, relax, confident, that kind of thing.

And that's really the signal that you put across of your attitude is, I think, a hell of a lot more important.

That's right.

If you went up there looking tense and drunk and...

saying, you know, it's all going to be all right, and you think people say, Jesus Christ, you're in trouble, but when you sit there relaxed, and chapter Smith, and you talk, and you know what you're saying, you make your points, you repeat them for clarity and emphasis, and...

trying to smile when we get to a point that requires, you know, logically takes a smile.

And I say, well, you know, everything, that's all they're looking for.

I really believe that people just want somebody up here who knows what's going on to say, don't worry, everything's okay.

I'm coming more and more to the view, Mr. President, that the bleeding hearts and the liberals cannot be placated.

The thing we have to pay attention to is your natural friends.

And people keep talking about the last election.

If the economic situation had been a little bit better, you would have had a tremendous sweep, and these guys would be on their knees now and shutting up.

It had nothing to do with the campaign.

Remember, I was praying that we'd get to 800, and we only got to 785.

And Parker, he cut back on the money.

If you had done that, the interest rate is about a quarter.

So, so it's a lot of these, this is what brought these guys out of the woodwork.

And they can't be played, in my view, they... And you know, I've tried perhaps harder than almost anyone on this earth to keep out the lines to these...

to these fellows.

The other thing I feel is there's more sense of what's required, the sense of really what leadership is required.

As I said, I wouldn't be able to sleep well at night if I didn't do what I know is right.

You know, I know what's going to happen.

I admit it.

I don't...

I don't know whether Joe Alta ever reached you.

He was going to call you on...

He wanted to call you on Sunday.

He said to me because... And then he couldn't get through because he went and did it.

But he... Yeah, he was going to... What he wanted to say to you was...

He called me.

He had his whole little speech to me.

He said you...

that in the honor of calling him when they were going in, and he wants you to know that as they were going out, he still believes that...

But what he said to me, that the thing that the establishment can never forgive you, is that here a self-made American, who owes them nothing, is doing all the right things, and they haven't got the guts to do anything.

Well, that's all we like, sir.

Oh yeah, he's written a column yesterday, and we have another one.

My client had a dance with him yesterday, saying it is not a route, and he's backing it up with another one.

Oh yeah, Joe is.

The other thing, the other thing is this, that point about Cambodia was made, and I got a chance to hit it again, right?

I said, now look, and Smith knew, and I said, I said, do you remember the great, and I excluded him in a nice way without making a nice...

I think the destruction of supplies is not much less than it was in Cambodia.

You have to count it in a slightly different way.

Consumed by the enemy and we just don't know what was in these farms.

and what was consumed in battle and the extra consumption imposed on them.

So we will see the results of that over the next year.

I don't even know how they're going to begin building up their forces in 3rd and 4th Corps before next May.

When we started on these operations last year in Cambodia,

We thought six to eight months would be the absolute maximum.

We've already had more than eight months.

Let me say, getting back to my earlier point, we never want to kid ourselves of where we are.

The point is, we do have a problem.

There is a question of the credibility and all the rest.

The reason for it is frankly the problem.

The problem is the people.

It's the goddamn war.

But the reason is, as far as Laos is concerned, even if we'd gone on, it would not have made a hell of a lot of difference like we did in Ethiopia.

Because it's a year later, and people are sick of it.

They want to be out.

Mr. President, if we had never done it, and we had lost Huay and Tanang in August and September, all the dogs would have screamed.

They do it all along.

And I think our negotiating position with the North Vietnamese is not bad.

They know how close a thing it was.

In fact, they may be a little more willing to settle it.

Now, someone has to do something about Mark eventual who's calling.

Hey, good son.

He's a good son.

Yeah, he called me up and said she's going to go to the new spectrum and say we put him there to punish him.

I don't know.