Conversation 476-007

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It's about philosophy.

Very big play on that.

Both ABC and CBS are good.

Taylor and Mrs. Eisenhower's son.

Yeah.

They're good both.

Both members.

And CBS had an offer with ABC.

That's nice.

Apparently very good.

There's been a lot of...

Of course, a lot of comment, both pro and con, on the speech that exactly predictable grounds that our people have said

good and our opponents have said it has been uh albert leads the responsible opposition line which is says that he feels that the president he's very gratified the person's continues withdrawing it's a very responsible decision or something like that but he wishes that it could be faster sure but it's done very mildly and that's that's there's there's a paramount of that in the area that there's there's uh

But I just heard that Muskie's gone way out and announced his support of the April 24th demonstrations.

And he applauds the people who are coming to Washington and tracks them and goes on and on about that, which is important to me.

The staff already has backed off the city.

This is probably one of the groups that's coming, but not the other one.

And keep in mind, so we've got him waltzing out again at the same time.

He didn't want to say quite as much of it as he did.

And if you saw the paper this morning,

Post isn't making more of it than anybody else.

They're trying to build a flat, a flat on the Scott and that, Scott at first is so totally irresponsible.

He sits in the meeting and he misses, first he tries to hear something and to interpret it.

He's not supposed to say anything, you know.

You know, he's not, they're not supposed to go out and say .

As far as I can determine, he hasn't said what they're implying that he said, and that they're trying to escalate into a disagreement.

There's just no real disagreement.

Oh, Scott didn't say.

He said he got the impression.

Yeah, the clear impression that you have in your book is probably what I said was we are for a total withdrawal, period.

Now, you gentlemen, that's just, that's what we are.

We're a total draw.

I know what we're going to do.

But I said, I'm not going to tell you.

I'm not going to tell anybody.

And that's the only thing.

And that's, on that basis, he's saying, I have a firm feeling that the president does have a fixed plan in mind.

I have a plan in my life.

But I know he's not going to tell anybody.

And then, you know,

Bird, he's right, tends to back him up and say, I have the same impression the president does have a fixed plan on a positive way.

And Bobby Griffin says the same thing, that he has it fixed.

And he'd say, I've got a stage in mind, which of course would mean that actually the date is not fixed for the reason that...

or the reason that it won't have a certain chance, no matter, it's a floating thing, it could be this day or that day, you know what I mean?

Just what Bobby Gehrman says is that he says for practical purposes it's November 1972.

Well, it's bad, but he can...

If there's an implication in that on your statement, even in your speech, where you say you have a government contract, you have a contract, we'll hold you accountable for direct delivery.

That's right.

And in time, they account for everybody else.

Well, we haven't knocked that count yet, Will.

I think Ziegler handled it well.

Actually, it's gotten escalated, and one of them tried to make the point that Ziegler had emphatically denied this cocktail.

Now, Ziegler did not emphatically deny it.

What Ziegler did is that it would not be correct to assume...

that the President has a fixed date for the Senate.

I want you to thank the reason for all of this.

So, it's the fact that you've got him.

You've got him.

Now, let me ask you this.

You've got McGregor settled down, or is he out the wall fluttering around?

No, he's not.

Is he now or not?

Because if he isn't, we've got to, we're going to shut him fast.

We've always done it.

We've done a lot for McGregor.

You're sure?

I think so, yeah.

We cannot have many people that are, at this time, are gonna be in a group.

We really gotta hold the line hard for the next four to five months.

And I'm just gonna have McGregor or anybody else around to help wind it around here.

I don't think he will.

Okay.

Our discussion this morning was on the economy and making a point that we have where George feels very strong.

Of course, he always does.

But it seems to be better supported.

Your thought on retail sales is major.

And so we need more and more supportive retail centers that are, we were just reading the reports today, but I'm very glad I've seen the latest one, but I read that in my financial days, yeah, every morning.

And those little things, we can even in the Los Angeles Times, you can see it.

And the backers don't want to put it out, but now that's what the market's reflecting.

You see, it's the retail sales, too, Bob, not on payrolls.

That's very volatile.

What we use is home furnishings.

Yeah, that's going to include car loss, but I mean not just rain factions though.

These rain factions are low or slow because of the summers, the seasons are slow, but this week they're really high.

Yeah, they've picked up and that

I've tried that Sears robot thing on Jordan.

He was quite intrigued with that.

He's going to do some, have this, try to do some checking with Sears on it.

And he said that, you know, the way we have to figure out the amount of profits is almost like the world.

God have it in the hands of history.

We can't guarantee we're going to have it.

Well, except that Michael...

or we can by talking about the economy well we can maybe nudge it some but we can also get credit for what happens on the dose which you should want to be sure to do

The point is now we've got all our messages up in the conference.

Yeah, so our legislative program has been submitted.

Yeah, yeah, good.

So we can start talking about that.

Our program's up there.

Now we ought to escalate our fight for it and our fight across the country.

I'm going to look positive on that side of the economy.

We ought to start, which is sort of related to, we ought to be financing the credit for it.

That should be what we're talking about.

Put the blank right on that.

The program is there for everything, right?

That's it.

And it is a good idea.

And that was .

I talked to John, and he was going to work on .

Yes, but it is true about them.

I made a point across.

I made a point, which is a good way of putting it.

I was thinking about it more, but it's not so much that Morgan and his crew are doing a bad selling job, nor that Herbman and his policy people have done a bad production job.

We've made a good product.

We're doing a good job of selling it.

But we put it in a lousy package.

That's the thing.

So people don't know it's a good product.

That's right.

And it's hard as hell.

But here's where you've got to get the Sapphire Captain in there.

Yeah.

Just put in a few.

Sapphire's reworking all the stuff.

And again, it's simple.

It's a nice, emphasize property.

The oldest piece, 39, would have been 35 minutes if I had given the inch to be correct.

Yeah.

But it was down, it was down to 30 even when I started on the two-suit.

I cut 10 minutes more out of it.

You'd have been under 20.

And I got, well, I actually had a 17.

But then I had a certain 60 minutes.

But what I meant is,

I do know that breakfast is the whole secret of that kind of a thing.

Anything on color would just make it.

I was interested to ask, Gerald White was at the briefing yesterday, and I said, how did you like it?

What did you think of that?

And she said, well, it was interesting, but there was so much that it was confusing, and now I can't remember any of it.

I said, well, that's exactly what I thought.

I think he just breached the international policy.

It's a very good briefing.

But he went so fast and it was so much that even George Holt said not to hear it again.

So will I.

Well, I always think that it's the old story of trying to get across two or three points.

Yeah.

Not really going to make the same point.

I wish you would be sure to follow up, John, on this.

Do follow up on it.

Get it?

Because I told you on the floor that he...

He is such a scholar himself, you know, that he does not realize, you know what I mean?

Even going out on the press, an answer, don't answer 18,000 questions.

Don't do it.

Make your point and get out.

He gave them a damn good course in the military legal process, and it's more than those guys are able to cope with.

You should listen to him.

It's better than you mentioned.

It was all right that they weren't, but they pick out little things that fit into their frequency.

What you do is don't be responsive to the goddamn answers.

It's like a press conference.

You don't have to answer those questions.

That's what I ask.

At least I give them some answers, but I don't go in and give them the whole thing, well, now let me do this, that, and everything.

Otherwise, their answer would be ten minutes.

It's like the goddamn reading books you prepared for me, Bob.

Do you agree?

Yeah.

This is the problem, and I do think we've got to, somebody's got to get a hold of this production problem.

get it down, I don't know.

Now Buchanan's good at this.

Let Buchanan try it.

What I mean, summarize, yeah, summarize his revolution and the rest so that we get it down to, then in the Chicago Sun-Times it gives us

Three or four simple things, here are four.

Can anybody tell you?

John said the revenue sharing.

Check with everyone else on revenue sharing.

You know, damn TV.

Revenue sharing doesn't beat the average guy.

It really does not.

About the only line I've been able to get across that I keep using over and over again is that the thing that somebody worked out, it doesn't work and so forth.

We have to do what we can.

We have to do what we can to make it work.

I just wanted to go over it.

I've talked to Henry.

I think you handled it extremely well.

And I frankly think Scott and those others didn't really intend to say what they did.

You were at the reaching point.

What are we reaching?

What I would say is one,

The president and the councilor, they mean that just stick by this beat.

Don't escalate this thing.

Don't give them any more.

Now let me tell you just a mistake that I made.

It wasn't serious, but it was good.

Because it missed an opportunity that I think you should have really in the future.

We've got our people out there going to learn more from this.

He took early one over to talk about the counties.

He said he asked you 50 questions.

He couldn't answer you that many questions.

He shouldn't ask you any questions.

Let me tell you why.

It's very technical, legal, maddening.

Think what he wants them to write.

Tell them, get out.

Now, the reason is, Ron, they don't understand it, because we get it.

Those that do understand it will take 50 questions, one or two inches out of context, and a tightly-raised 50-question answer, and screw you.

See, that he must not do.

So the less you can give him, the better.

Give him a simple thing, and you're better

than anybody else, and then to take your opinion.

And I know it's hard, and I know they pound you, and I know they come at you hard.

I believe that you were under hell of a service, so I had you on the first conference show.

I don't have two little sons of bitches for that very reason, because I know that they're not, that they, you've got to tell, I want you to inform Kissinger.

and heard, and false, that when they go before the press, anytime any of our people do, say, look, folks, this is not for the benefit of the press.

I've told you time and again, whenever a press man comes up back to us and says, gee, that was very awful, you've lost.

You have lost.

See, I don't mean you have.

They have.

They don't do it to me.

I know.

They don't say it to you.

And by God, they don't say it to me, ever.

Because they always get distraught and so on after the press conference.

You well know they don't like it.

We're one band.

And so under the circumstances, you just, don't you think, Bob, when he said that this is when our people hear a little more, don't let them get out there and come.

It's hard for Ron to do that.

We've all got to work on it.

You work on it well.

Thank you.

You should do it too.

When you're talking with, all right, somebody comes up, you should say the same thing.

All right, I will, I will.

But I think what we'll do, I'll get in there, I think you ought to get in there and start seeing your staff and people, and sometimes the ones that do vote for the press with wrong.

And I'll tell them, I'll tell them about that and don't answer.

For example, these long torture sessions they have with the spurting person, with the, you know, symbol and people like that.

Bullshit!

Don't do that!

I mean, if you're going to do it, if you're going to do something, remember you've got to put down on a piece of paper.

Klein is very good at this, you know, and he does it.

I mean, he does it in a very simple sort of dumb way.

And it seems, he did this and that, but it seems to them that if you put down three or four points, you can get them over and over.

Do I make a point or not?

Or do you think there is this problem?

There is a point there.

No, and I do frequently.

In relation to John, I don't know if he took 50 questions.

John,

I haven't seen anywhere.

I agree with your point, Mr. President, in terms of the announcement the other day where they have really wrapped John or taken us in on that particular briefing.

What he did was... Where we got to was that they didn't say that they didn't want that.

That's right.

They did not make the point that the president was not intervening.

That's right.

They didn't make the point that the president was not intervening in the case.

He had resisted that.

He had been great for it.

He had resisted it.

He was trying to stand by the judicial process, and he was going, however, as a line-on-regulatory officer, to whom it could be agreed that he would exercise his responsibility and right to redo the sentence I foretold.

That was my only point.

And the other point you said, Ross said that very in depth, but it never got me the other point.

I heard him say that, Ross, the President made this decision alone.

You know, that he did it alone.

And you know, I think what I meant is that after all the consideration, but that is not past the buck.

That he resisted the attempts to do this and that and the other thing.

Well, that did get there, I think.

Yes, it did.

That is, I think, the specific way in which you're acting did Heather and Ron agree.

Now, on the other hand, Ron, I agree.

It wasn't John's fault.

John is...

He was so careful in his wording.

Well, that's what they...

did yesterday i read i talked to senator scott and i think i'm man i wouldn't tell you before you know when jerry ford asked that question is there any open negotiations

I didn't answer.

I did with Mansfield.

I said, yes, my career is.

I said, I can't, I don't want to raise your hopes, but I said, we've got a couple of levels.

I'll hold about three months.

That'll never get out.

Never get out.

But with Scott, it'll get out the next day.

See my point?

I see my point.

Now, I wouldn't tell later that.

I don't even go around and catch that.

Nobody.

But I do tell that to him.

There's a reason I tell him.

He, without telling anybody else, will

Cool, if you've ever heard something like this in the voice.

You see my point?

That's how you do it.

Now, on this, say, look, John, I don't know if you know this, I was president of the U.S. And don't let anybody else get it.

The president said exactly what you said when you said in your speech, that we have a plan for a total American withdrawal.

The President also said that he would not discuss the matter of the date, because whether he did it expressly or not, whenever that date, the matter of the final date, for two reasons, that is the, because it would jeopardize the three goals that he mentioned in his speech.

Now, does he have a date?

Gentlemen, I just told you, he will not discuss the matter of a date.

That depends on what happens.

But a plan for total, a complete plan for total American withdrawal, the President has a date I will not discuss because that is part of the plan.

I mean, what I mean is,

what date, when it occurs, is involved in the plan, see?

So we say, what is involved?

See, the day depends upon Christmas.

The day depends upon the level of enemy activity.

The day depends upon negotiation, right?

The date also depends upon the optimization.

Maybe, for example, on December 1st,

Whatever date I have in mind now, and there are two or three that have been presented, whatever date I have in mind now can be moved out.

Right.

And he didn't feel bad.

That's the point.

But in any event, I'm not going to say, but the point is, I don't want to be, you were exactly right, as bullish as the effect that I told Senator something I wouldn't tell the American people.

Well, what the hell do you mean to insult the Senator?

First, I didn't, I should have a right to.

But beyond that, I didn't tell him about that thing I didn't tell the American people.

You were there through the whole thing.

I had, you know,

We are, this is why I'm here right now.

We move into these periods after speech.

I told the guys in the briefing yesterday, I said, look, we go through this all the time.

You guys act or what you write and say on what the president said.

The reason I, yesterday, felt it was important, and I did it just at the end,

is because the story, the headline, and the lead news, they were going into the lead news on all of the, the lead story on all the networks with the Scud, at Burberry Parks anyway, would have been, the president has set a fixed date for withdrawal, and that is the end of 1972.

Now that cuts, in my feeling right there on the spur of the moment, was that would have taken the whole logic out of your speech.

Because it would have cut away the empty incentive to negotiate on PRW.

Public pressure would immediately, if he's got a date, have him tell us.

Because that came through a little bit in Max Frankel's column this morning.

If there is a fixed date, why doesn't he say it?

You know what Max Frankel said?

Tell him to read the goddamn speech.

That's what he said.

Is that Frankel's pitch?

Well, he was going through the Scott and Berg remarks in your speech.

And his point, he just made it down in the paragraph.

All right, but just say, look, that would be the complete, that the president's stated the position completely, candidly, and honestly.

That's what I said yesterday, yeah.

As far as this is concerned, we have a plan for total withdrawal.

As far as the date is concerned, the President discussed no date with the Senate.

He will not discuss the date, because that date will depend upon the federal census.

I hope that I don't get a question on this, and I'm going to stay 101 miles away from it.

They'll probably be up around Scott today.

Just so I have this clear in my mind, this is not how I would say it, but basically what I'm going to do is...

In other words, what we, and I said this some yesterday, what we're dealing with are interpretations and impressions of the senators that were there.

The president has a plan.

He said that before publicly.

And he has a period of time in which he intends to implement that plan in a responsible way, as he has said.

That's right.

The president has made this point to the leaders.

That plan...

It is incorrect, however.

It would be to say it would be destructive to that plan.

It would be destructive to that plan, to the very essence of the plan, if you have any discussion of the date.

of a fixed date.

There is no fixed date.

Now, then I go on to say...

There is no fixed date.

This is what they say.

There is a certain date.

I mean, the certainty of total withdrawal, the president has already indicated.

You can be certain that there's going to be a total withdrawal at some point.

But as far as the date being fixed, there is no fixed date.

There is no fixed date because they...

is completely antagonistic to and inconsistent with the whole thesis of the President's presentation on Paris and would destroy, would greatly weaken the chances to move up the end of the war by negotiation.

They had it sooner.

They had it worse in the negotiation.

Therefore, the President, and you could say the President was strongly impressed by the leaders to say whether or not, what date he had in mind.

If he had, no, what date he had in mind.

I guess you can't say that they didn't ask you that.

You could just say, just leave it right there.

That the leaders did not go beyond that and the President did not go beyond that.

And Scott, you talk to Scott, he should not get trapped on this.

Perhaps Scott should say, the President did not tell us it was a fixed date.

He didn't express a fixed date.

That would be inconsistent with it.

But he said there is a plan, total withdrawal.

That his plan is total withdrawal.

Just talk about it.

Maybe it's just total withdrawal.

But one of them, that would depend on the circumstances.

Right.

Go ahead.

Well, I was going to say, the President has planned his period of time

He has a period of time in which he intends to implement the plan.

It is incorrect, and he's doing it in a responsible way.

That's the point he made to the leaders.

It is incorrect

It is an incorrect interpretation to say that the President has a fixed or specific date.

Why don't you say that I talked to Senator Scott and he says this?

Why don't you pull it out and say I talked to Senator Scott and he says it's incorrect, that they're incorrectly interpreting him.

He did not mean to suggest that the President told the Senators or implied to the Senators that he has a fixed date in mind.

That's really the point.

You were there, I never said, you know, you know, I've got an idea.

I said, I've got an idea.

You weren't writing a date in mind, but you know what I mean?

But then I went right, call that a meeting.

But I called that date and it was on one address.

See?

That's the point that I made.

And actually that's true.

We've got dates in mind.

We've got dates that are working.

July, August, December, October, November, December, January of 1973.

Then I thought I'd go on.

Well, what about the election?

Well, gentlemen, the president has made his statement.

He says he expects to be held accountable.

I didn't say that in the election.

You did not.

That's the point I made.

I expect to be held accountable.

Don't let them get in the business that the president's decided he's not running for re-election.

I said in several occasions, I think we'll have peace as an issue.

That's expressing the hope.

That's the goal.

But I expect to be held accountable, period.

If you haven't held accountable, then have it.

If not, then be held accountable.

That's what I'd like to get to that.

Go ahead.

The other point is the plan the President is pursuing is to remove all U.S. forces from South Vietnam.

We have frequently said, however, that the President will continue to assess and evaluate the matter and make decisions as he makes further decisions regarding reduction of U.S. forces.

Of course, this will be based upon the enemy's reaction and response in South Vietnam and at the table in Paris.

Well, and the progress of our forces, that's the key point, because they're going up fast.

See, progress of the three, there are three fact criteria.

President, President, President Gosselin, the President said just what he said on Thursday.

He said, one, our goal and our plan is a total American withdrawal.

And then the president pointed out, I will not set a date, sir, because it would destroy the chance to hand it sooner.

I told him, I was like, it's necessary.

But we will not discuss a date, sir.

We will not talk about an excerpt, we will not set an excerpt, because that would destroy the chance to end the Senate renegotiation.

And that, wait a minute, as far as it's announced to cover the period between now and December 1st,

And in the middle of November, he will make another announcement.

At that time, reflecting the situation then, that's, and he will reflect, he will reflect the three criteria, just say they're all the same three criteria, negotiation, the, let's have it a little deeper.

Now, that has to have a negotiation on such matters as our prisoners.

See?

Now, they may come at you on the deal.

What about a residual force and so forth and so on?

Our goal is total American control.

What about the President's statement that he made at the previous press conference?

He said, Captain, we'll always have Americans here when we get our prisoners out.

You could say, gentlemen, the President has made a statement.

I'm not going to try you forever.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Well, then I was just going to make the point you did that we will not discuss beyond what the President said publicly in terms of the recent troop reduction announcement, nor will we discuss the period of time nor the date for the reasons that the President outlined in his address last night.

That's right.

And just say that.

That's right.

In other words, through all of this, the only thing that I think we should prevent from gaining acceleration is that you have a fixed state which something will happen on.

But that we won't tell anybody, see, and that's what they were moving for, see, because they were moving for yesterday.

No, the president said, the president on the contrary told the senators that we have a plan for total withdrawal, but that we are not, but that we cannot, we're not going to set any date until we get to...

The three key factors, plan...

following a plan for total withdrawal period of time.

However, no

specific date because you constantly have to reevaluate and assess on the true criteria.

But on the other hand, part of the plan is the fact that it doesn't have an integral part of the time is that we do not put ourselves in the straitjacket of any fixed date.

Because the straitjacket, the date could be too soon or it could be too late.

So there's no straitjacket of a fixed date.

There's not going to be any straitjacket of a fixed date.

The date will depend upon those circumstances at the time.

We'll have another announcement in November and October.

Well now Ron, isn't it true that if you just add up the numbers here, that the county paid $4,000 and you go $14,000 more a month, won't you be out approximately by the end of September?

You add them up the way you want to, the important thing is how the president adds them up.

With all your other withdrawals, you've withdrawn faster than you said.

The perfect thing, too, in terms of their speculation, I'll just refer them to their speculation of the last troop of about 40%.

Now, the period of time thing, they'll try and come in, well, what period, gentlemen?

And I fall back on that.

So I think that's about it.

I think you've got a point.

But you may hear three points.

Just like you did.

You handled it extremely well.

And I can just tell Scott that's the way to handle it.

But God damn it.

Why was he saying last night about the, well, the conflict between the leader and the White House?

Of course, rather.

CBS handled it in an interesting way without the conflict.

They rather thought that there was some, his formulation was that there was a, a,

diplomatic ploy here, which, you know, adds fun.

It adds confusion.

There is.

Let there be confusion, but no confusion in my mind.

I think the best thing you want to come out of here tomorrow is to affirm against the Dubs.

That has come true.

Even Franco had conceived that this morning.

Franco actually wrote a fairly good piece.

Joe Alsop this morning had a

Good Joe Alsop piece, you saw.

Oh, yeah, I saw.

Well, it was his piece about this, about the drone.

He said that I had to lecture the staff in firm terms to get them to shape up.

Well, you focus on that part, Bob.

That's right.

But the threat...

So he said the staff.

No, but the threat... Did he say that you did?

Yeah.

Well, Henry Murphy told me, he said, all of the president's unflappable doorkeeper...

The tip, the tip... That's good, though.

That's good.

Not that staff lesson.

The key word in there was panic.

Well, he said that many of the White House staff after the Laotian operation were in near panic.

Oh, no.

He said a few of the White House.

But the president, in a calm way, assessed the situation and moved, you know, putting aside the...

They said on his president's lonely role or something.

That's all right.

That's good, too.

The main thing is it was a firm decision.

Second, it's working.

The administration...

Actually, the Post editorial in its own way had it conceded

yeah to the president everything we still don't like it i mean they had in order to put the jab in they had they had to go to send about the fifth paragraph to a little some sort of a needle that vietnamization was applying that westmoreland talked about before

you're creating, creating, taking success would be a position that Westmoreland made a speech in 1967.

And it brought out 150,000 more Americans, right?

And look what they did.

The way, if I'm ever asked about that, I say there's a lot of difference about talking about something and doing something.

It crumbles at the end.

But the point of it is it has to

to give credit to the person for holding firm and consistent.

They said, true, he's been consistent.

True, he's gotten the troops out.

True, he's cut the casualties way down.

But who does he think he is taking credit for that?

That's another one thing.

all this, but be sure, total withdrawal, we have a line, but gentlemen, to any discussion, any discussion, any fixed date would be destructive of the very principles the president said would be destructive.

And it would, and the straitjacket, the straitjacket of the date, let's fight that, the straitjacket of the date would be, would entail our goals of ending the wars in the French Revolution.

our goals of getting, our goals of negotiating on the prisoners.

And also, and the announcement of it, of course, it gives too much demands on us to the enemy for its own plans.

That's a horrible point to do that, and it's goddamn true.

You know, if you're gonna go down at a certain rate, going down 184 is gonna be hard enough.

You see, they can weigh the bushes and cracks.

Out of all of this, one bridge line that I want to make sure I have is that it would be incorrect to assume, after I make all these points, that the president has, at this time, a fixed date.

Oh, absolutely.

No, the president does not have a fixed date.

He has a plan.

So, well, doesn't the plan always have a date?

The very essence of the residence plan is that the date depends upon the circumstances at the time.

That's the essence of it.

No, you don't have to fix it.

As a matter of fact, I have, you know, I have dates.

Oh, sure.

Like two or three.

Absolutely.

But it depends.

It's in a range.

Period of time.

I want to say that.

That's why I put in here a period of time.

The president has a period of time in mind.

I'm not going to get into it.

No, he has a general period of time in mind that we'll take.

It's dependent on the various events that can occur.

That's what happened.

Who thought we were going to go to 14-2, right?

I'll have to find out then.

I would have said that.

Don't let us think we're going to step it up to Larry while we're talking.

The only other thing is Congressman Ford, who Evans and Novak has a column today, I'm not sure, called Congressman Ford.

the night before or the afternoon before west coast time regarding the cali matter i'm gonna

Chief, I've talked to Congressman Ford from California about that, and he didn't indicate that you in any way talked about the Kelly thing in terms of your actions.

So I'm just going to relate that phone conversation, saying that the President did not talk about releasing Kelly from the stockade that Congressman Ford did the night before.

That's a decision he made the morning he came in, and just leave it at that, period.

No, I made it the night after.

Actually, what I called Ford about was to get his...

The whole reaction to the Calumet, he gave it.

I said, what's the temper?

He didn't.

I didn't tell him what I was going to do.

He said, I hope you do something.

Actually, what you called him about was the Democratic Caucus vote that morning.

And then Ford surprised you, because we had gotten the word about the draft extension.

Yeah.

And then we all tell him that.

Why don't you say what you called him about?

I called him about the Democratic Caucus.

And then it was about the vote on the draft.

And then, and that was because obviously Cali was on the top of their match also, and also a four-game match that didn't get run down on the very, very, on the congressional reaction on the Cali matter.

That was all there was to it.

But that was a no-brainer.

I mean, I, I don't know, Jerry must have told us.

Jerry would never have told Leonard.

He didn't.

What happened to you, Jerry?

Oh, Larry.

Larry.

Jerry had a meeting of the Michigan congressional caucus and he told the Michigan congressman that he had talked with you and reviewed the various county things and one of those Michigan congressmen went to Evans or Novak.

Don't, don't, don't.

No, I don't want you on this debate.

I don't want you to become a part of the folklore.

They're trying to build into the folklore that your county decision was based, that you were running around asking everybody what the political implications were and then you made a decision.

Well, that's what I'm trying to say.

On the contrary, I didn't talk to Rogers.

I didn't talk to Laird.

I only talked to, absolutely, I didn't talk to any congressman or senator.

Ford's call was about the rest.

I called

of Dan Inkin yesterday, and there's this type of thing coming out of the Pentagon, which you've seen, and I told Dan, I said, Dan, you better get that turned off, because it certainly doesn't do your boss any good, referring to the Secretary, for the understandings to develop between the Pentagon and the White House on this thing, because I said, Dan, you know damn well this doesn't serve anyone's interest, and I said, I think you've got ways to turn wherever it's happening, in the Army or wherever it's awful.

Oh, they're all facing, they're all trying to, you know, on the couch.

But you mean they're trying to make it as if it's political.

Well, if there was anything that was done alone, that was done alone.

By God.

Or, I don't think they can talk about it, but maybe one minute.

I was in the room when you talked with one of them, and I couldn't remember any conversation he had.

I do now.

I remember that he... Let me put this in, Chris.

The guys out here, there's nothing right up well about this, but there are little columns beginning to appear in what I want to do if I'm asked about it.

Even on a background basis, tell the guys who come up and tell me.

Let me just tell you exactly what you say.

Why don't you say you were in the room when the call was made?

Why?

I was there when the call came in from Congressburg.

Because you had just brought in the dictator with regard to the Democratic Caucus.

And he called forward about it.

That was that.

Okay, fine.

That's exactly what happened.

And I, to my surprise, got the good news about the draft.

Ford said he was elated about winning one by three goals.

They'd killed an amendment to cut the draft.

He said, we won one by three.

He said, it's nice to win it closely, he said.

And I remarked about the fact that the draft...

before World War I was extended by only one vote, before World War II.

And of course we weren't there, and I said, this is rather reminiscent of that vote.

And you tell them you remember that.

Tell them, gentlemen, I'll figure the whole conversation out.

And then at the last of the 10 days of the Congress, when the country volunteered, there was a great deal of concern about the Kelly thing.

And they gave the President a quick runaround, and that was all.

But there was, we didn't hear anything from the President's side.

As a matter of fact, I did say something.

I did say, well, look, Jerry, you can be sure that I'm going to have the thing, and we're going to do the best we can.

We're going to try to cool it off any way we can, or something like that.

But you'll see.

Now, Jerry is probably uncalled for in our Congress.

But this didn't come out of Jerry.

It was clear.

In other words, it was written from a Michigan Congressman who had been probably re-voted.

Could very well have been.

That asshole was in there.

Well, he might have never had me say anything with Rita.

Well, he has to.

Well, anyway, let me say that he, uh, you know, I distrust, though, that he got a slap in the face.

Yes, sir.

I guess that's just absolutely untrue.

The congressmen are told anything.

And Griffin has got to be told.

Bobby Heard, I don't know what he'll get into, but he wants to come to other meetings in the future.

He better...

shape up too, because they're really playing a pretty responding game.

Say, I want you to call her and say, this is what we've said, this is what you want to do, this is what you want to do.

And after you finish that, listen to the senator.

The president wants to be sure there's no misunderstanding that you can see congressmen and senators.

He says he has great confidence.

He appreciates your very great responsibility here.

And of course, Howard hasn't said anything.

One thing about Howard, he never leaves her.

He never does.

Neither does Mansfield.

The only problem is our old leader.

Well, Terry doesn't lead.

Terry does not lead.

But you can be damn sure that Bob Berger is new, and Griffin is new.

Griffin doesn't have much.

Well, Griffin is playing a big role.

They're trying to avoid getting cross-locked.

What Scott, Senator Scott,

What he's attempting to do is convey his own wishes and feelings.

And what cannot happen here, and he almost had us on it, is to get fixed in the fact that you have an ex-state which is the end of something.

What I'm going to tell you,

I put a wrist as monthly as that.

Now, of course, everybody romances, which is he's got a vain mind.

I don't agree.

November, I'll take a hard look.

Something might happen in September.

Something might happen in May.

See what I mean?

We might be starting to get the hell out a lot sooner.

Continue to assess the value of the situation based on the right criteria.

And we'll be back.

But, gentlemen, the thing is that the optimization has succeeded.

The total withdrawal of all American horses now is assured.

It's assured.

And, oh, another thing.

Not one American, the President says, will be in Vietnam one day longer than he considers it necessary to accomplish the three objectives that he's mentioned.

I mean, the objective, one day longer, that too.

No, we'll be there in Vietnam one day longer than is necessary.

And that will depend upon the dollars.

In other words, as soon as South Vietnam is able to defend itself, the Americans are all gone.

And as soon as we get the field governments, the Americans are all gone.

So, you see what I mean?

If one American will be there one day longer, you might get a duty done in that way, but then the President will be directly, when necessary, to achieve our objectives.

And that we now, that we can now say with confidence that we have done what we're all doing.

What's the, as Bob was saying this morning, I know you shouldn't be concerned.

The reaction is exactly what we expect.

What the hell do you think the Democrats and our critics are going to do?

Hell, they were ripping us to pieces, and now the top secretary gets caught off on some sort of, they don't know what to do with it, I think.

Don't you think so?

Yeah.

What do you think?

I feel the same way you sensed it the first.

The press yesterday were not antagonistic at all.

I don't think I would have been asked one question about the speech, had the Scott thing not moved.

Because they knew what happened.

And it was clear.

They even agreed with me in this Q&A.

I told them as we were going through this and bantering over it.

I said, look, the president was very clear in stating his policies.

Why he's going to do it and why he's not going to do something else.

And the questioner who was peer point said, I agree, the president was totally clear.

But Senator Scott said,

So he said he would check with Senator Scott, and Senator Scott said only what he, the impression that he got.

Sure, I spoke very forcefully.

I said we're going to have a total withdrawal.

You can count on it.

He said that I, and I said in the speech, you can hold me accountable.

But I also said if they want to take the responsibility, I also said they should have only one commander-in-chief.

One commander-in-chief.

I'll be commander-in-chief.

And I'll take responsibility, but if you'd be commander-in-chief, you'd take the responsibility.

That was our comment.

But I was going to say, Robert, I think compared to some of our previous ministers, the pressure's been less antagonistic.

No question about it.

What do you think?

Yes, sir.

And I think... Well, people respect...

They're all human beings.

They don't have to sit there and watch that.

And they also respect someone moving against what he said he's going to do.

And that comes through to even the most die-hard enemy out there.

They all hitch up their vans and start doing what they do.

Well, because they're against what we're trying.

But they don't know how to approve it.

I'll tell you.

It's just delightful that Muskie's done it.

So, oh, you're endorsing the market.

We don't want to try and get somebody in there.

I know.

It would be rough.

There's one group that will do it.

That's what it looks like, just what the hell they are.

And Musty recognizes that, too, very sad.

I was very rushed to turn it back and off of it already, even before it went in the same line that it's doing.

But one thing, of course, too, is this, that these, I think Christian was talking, actually, this boy, I think, of course, goes to Harvard Law School, but he's very little.

And she said they were surprised.

He called a lot of Harvard points to show they may not agree.

She said that this is the thing.

These are Harvard Law School students.

These are kids.

But they were very open to that conclusion, that speech.

That is the key thing.

And that affects these bachelor's students.

Well, we all thought, and a lot of our callers, especially the sophisticated ones that we checked with that night, said that the ending was, listen,

very good, that you'll get a lot of flack on it.

But it was a good thing to do.

You haven't gotten, to my knowledge, one word of flack on it.

There hasn't been anybody who's had the gall to say that you had hooked up the internet or anything like that.

The picture of that little boy on paper this morning wasn't actually...

I heard it was on TV, but you said it was a wrong sleuth.

And he had a right-hand sleuth.

Why are you talking about that?

But did you get across the story that his father's name was Skipper?

I went through the whole thing.

That's David Bill and his mother, again, hit the thing.

God, she was just... She said she strongly supported you, that you're doing the right thing, and that her husband, she hopes very much that her two boys will grow up and go to Annapolis and become officers in the Marine Corps, that that's what their father wants, wanted.

And I think it's just...

She's really tough.

I'll tell you, at this stage, you just sense the right people that focus a little bit on the student unless she's tough.

That's right.

But she's a good-looking gal.

Articulate.

She's not, you know, none of this crap.

That's right.

You know damn well she needs what she's saying.

Sure.

The reactions.

It's not good to do, but it's not bad on TV.

I just don't want it to set in.

Oh, I know, I know.

And they want to be sure that they've got about the data then, that the, I mean, the Presidents quarrel with the right of Senators to interpret.

But you know what the Presidents are, and you were there.

you were there there was no question about it and they agreed that's what he said and this is what he meant and this is what he's not going to say and he disappears no date no date no as we said the certainty of withdrawal no questions a total withdrawal the certainty of a plan there is no question however the essence of the plan is that we are not going to have the straitjacket of a fixed date

Because the date will depend upon the time.

If you could just sum it up that way, I don't know.

It really will.

And that's, I would just like that.

I want to skip all the rest of it.

I think it was the, our friendship is also the same.

Well, they're going to get out and tell you they've got a plan.

Well, they've got a plan.

And then we had a break.

We had a group, for example, around last night from Chicago here.

This guy's, of course, all rich.

He would have been cynical.

Although businessmen aren't.

These Chicago types aren't nearly as bad as these sons of bitches from the other side.

They can't move.

They don't know anything.

They were, but those guys were a true of man.

They were all very emotional about that talk last night, almost, you know.

They were, far than I realized they would be.

That's the hard way.

The hard way I was moved by that sort of stuff.

I think you had silence in every living room in this country.

You know, those men, those great grown men said they were crying in the tank.

Well, I think most people would.

No, he didn't.

He didn't.

No, I said, a grown man.

I said, why do I follow him?

He's got a great big football player.

I know he was a, I think, $100 million, I don't know, some college manager or something.

And he says, you know, I just want you to sit.

He's not a rare kid, though.

He says, you've got an awful big lump in my throat.

I never know how they talk.

And, uh,

No question.

A personalized award, when you give down to an individual like that, and when you show that you look at it in personal terms, and you don't talk, I thought what that did was it took it out of body counts, and thank God you didn't have the casualty charter.

That would have chopped down exactly what you created with this.

You're not thinking about that.

You're thinking about a Marine Sergeant

who takes a machine gun nest and then gets killed, and it all rains on his kids.

This little boy, you're worried about Kevin Taylor, and that's what matters, because every mother in this country has a little Kevin Taylor involved who's worried about her kid.

Everyone relates to it.

You can't just do that to another kid.

And I thought it was nice you wore glasses, too.

And here's a little guy.

Every mother's got a problem with the kids.

They have to get glasses for a little kid.

It's a terrible thing, they think.

But here he is with his big glasses, you know.

He's wearing these cowboy Indian pajamas, which they also point out.

He was wearing those.

I'm sure he looks at these little flannel pajamas that have cowboy Indian pictures on them.

That's what he was wearing, his cowboy Indian pajamas.

A little print.

I think that's a picture absolutely of him.

In a post, I think it's where Martin's speech.

What do you think?

very effective in the TV last night and his mother is

We've got to do something for her.

Well, she doesn't.

If you watch, there'll be a lot of it that you can watch.

Somebody will do something.

Yes, sir.

I'll just bet you.

We don't have to do anything about it.

I don't think we should.

There'll be scholarships.

Yes, sir.

There'll be scholarships.

As a matter of fact, that one, you can't make three points.

What did they do with Colin Kelly?

Roosevelt had never stepped in on Colin Kelly.

Well, I don't want to go for them because there are a lot of other mothers there and kids that age too.

Yeah, but this baby stood up and did something.

That's right.

Colin Kelly was sent to West Point before he was a baby.

And Colin Kelly, you know who grows even better than he is?

Colin Kelly.

Wasn't it before he was born?

Yeah, before he was born.

I don't think the kid was born.

President Roosevelt said,

Give him an appointment to West Point.

If it were a boy, or maybe he just didn't want to.

Well, I think you'd better stay out of it.

It'll happen anyway.

He'll get scholarships.

I'll tell you what, here is a great opportunity.

A great opportunity for Scott.

You call Scott, and I'll answer that.

He's got an enormous reaction to this.

And that Bob, that the President remembers, was calling Kelly.

And that the mother had mentioned.

that she wanted her two boys to go to Annapolis.

And the President, if you remember, had a discipline.

And that maybe, and that maybe Senator Scott had said, you know, he may, he won't be, he won't live that long.

But on the other hand, it's six plus ten.

But the other one, he might.

He could stand up and ask me that my successor, I've got to ask my successor,

that if I'm in office or my successor makes this appointment, and I've done the same to Senator Schweitzer, that would be a hell of a piece of stuff.

Just tell Senator Keide that the President had a suggestion, and that we just had the White House in a slump and may have inquired about this woman who was on television.

She was from Pennsylvania, and the President just throws this up for the Senator.

Because apparently we called Kelly and said he wanted to check it out.

He said the senator, he might want to get well on that.

He might get awful at it.

Because at that ceremony, neither senator nor her accomplice came together.

No, there wasn't one.

So Colonel Coffey was your escort.

Did you know that if I got the pencil management or you told me you were the senator, why wouldn't your accomplice and I would show up at the ceremony?

That's right.

There it is.

You know the, uh, men above?

He is so precise, and he's so tough.

I just feel relieved.

I think Herb's fine.

Herb would be clever.

But Ron, it would take me too long.

I mean, I have stuff all day, but Ron makes sense.

I want you to work with the plan.

I want you to talk to him.

I don't want to see any more establishment, I don't want to stand by establishment people.

I mean, I include Tom Gates even though he'd be all right on the draft, but I include anybody in the establishment, whether they're east, west, north, or south on any list for apartments in the future.

I don't believe them.

I don't mind any worker, provided he's a Bill Casey.

But I'm not going to put anybody else on any kind of a list.

And I want Pete to examine everything.

We have all the reappointments so we can get some of these Eastern establishment off.

You know what reminded me of a thought?

I looked at that group around me last night.

There were a lot of good people, I'm sure.

They were good, strong people.

And you know, hell, they may not be, they all go to colleges like Northwestern and Chicago, but they're just as, they could do just as well as Jock McCloy.

We always put the Jock McCloys and the Tom Gates and the Snobbies down that east.

And there's none of them before us.

I'm tired.

I didn't know Leonard Latham was even a Republican.

But he is, sir.

And they said, he's been doing it for both of the countries.

He was really poor.

He's Jewish.

Hell, yes, he's Jewish.

But he took that out of our recovery company.

He was a client of ours.

He's a miserable son of a bitch, but he's a brilliant guy.

He served life on our side.

And he did brilliant.

He's in 86 countries.

And he's made just, I'm not sure, a million dollars.

He's a cheap, kind of guy, who with a little recognition, he might be able to buy, put on some for us.

He's raised money for us.

I wanted to tell you that I felt...

I just feel we ought to put him on.

I think that Clem Stone could be on a commission like that.

I mean, what the hell?

He's awesome.

All right, but you told Pete that I wanted to do the same thing.

I don't want to see any Disney's new establishment.

I know Pete's all right, see.

I don't want to put Pete on mine.

His time.

But that, I don't want any of the, I want, frankly, let's face it, the John Mulcahy's and the Elmer Coates and the people like that, and I don't want any more of these eastern establishment names sent into this room.

Understand?

Goddamn, we're not going to win.

A Henry Ford, that's different.

You do it for a purpose.

That's right.

But Bob, we just, we've got these, it's just an automatic name.

It's an automatic name.

It's on every such case.

David, Dr. Daly, or Dr. Pollard, or all the rest of them, basically.

They all hate my guts, you know that.

We all know it.

You've already got my daughter, Julie, on TV.

I had someone else on me last night, and I said to her, I said, gee, you've got to get that girl on.

She's good, you know.

I want to use

I also want to say, this press conference, the president's received a very favorable reaction.

He has definitely undergone a very strong, very favorable reaction in terms of phone calls, telegrams, and direct response to the president.

As I said, we don't vary accounts.

This one, you can argue on the... We didn't ask you for it.

Yeah, we didn't ask for it, but wherever there is the opportunity, why don't you go in there and, you know, well, look at people that have come in.

Anything that any of us gets is the present.

You know, a superb job.

Wasn't that great?

Now I want to talk to you briefly about, before you go, about one other thing.

Again, about our whole world.

Several people asked and I said, you know, if I had to speak, why don't you do it like that?

And they remembered.

I mean, that's strange, but I was surprised.

I remember that I used to do that a lot when I was sitting on the edge of an escrow.

I wonder about it.

We aren't, and I know that I do, that everybody who's sat here knows it's easier on me.

But beyond that, it's better for the press to have everything written out for me to read.

Well, I don't.

But the point is, and also the standpoint of order and management is better.

That's the other point.

You know, you've just got to have them all ready.

Now, the main problem in life, mind, time, recurring, is an enormous mental effort to prepare something in that living.

You know what I mean?

And easy.

You know, I can prepare something in that living, but it doesn't make it out in that living.

Get my point?

Yeah.

My question is, though...

whether we ought to reevaluate this situation.

And frankly, just not reading anymore, God has to teach us.

You know what I mean?

Reading these things, and you said, Bill Roberts also said this, you know, you read awfully well, never worry about reading.

Maybe we're wrong.

Maybe I may read well, but maybe you should not read or talk about me.

It's another thing that I've used before.

I think where I have been thinking about it, and I was thinking about it that night, that you can do both, and I think that's what you should do.

I think when you're talking about something where there's any reason to do it, that you should do part of your speech without attacks.

but that you can do the basic speech with the text.

I don't think you should establish a pattern where you always get to the end, put your text down, and then look into the camera.

I do think that you should play it to someone else, but the Eisenhower thing of taking office classes, which he would do in the middle of a speech, not just at the end, or at the beginning.

Come on and do your peroration without the text, and then turn to your text.

And you can still work within the structure of a written text, but get the mind to see.

Now, see, you only went without a text for two minutes out of 19.

And yet everybody's saying you did a great job speaking without a text.

But 17 minutes of that, you were reading a text, and you were doing it obviously, which is the right way to do it.

You'd rather pull in a paper and put that in, rather than making notes.

I don't think that all of them are stupid ideas.

I don't care.

Great.

I think he's wrong.

But I don't think the President should do it.

I think he's wrong.

I do think it's worth your time to memorize a couple minutes and not need to memorize your order at or off of wings.

I can always do it.

Now I'll be asking one other thing.

This report will come out next week.

This speech has been relatively successful on toleration.

I wonder if it were wise to go to the well and get it next week on toleration.

We're going to have an adversary for shooting.

We're going to hold a survey.

We are well next week to just let that be for the editors.

Let it be for the editors.

And do it for the reporters next morning, but not TV.

And then do a talk about it in press conference in about two weeks.

I'm just saying about that.

And we had a call from a big audience here.

It was a favorable impression.

And the big audience said, this is a very good question.

Why wash it out?

Well, if you want to shoot that 10 minutes later, well...

I can say, if you can, I can hit the spank.

Now, look, they had a very good reaction to that, and they can get a very good reaction to this.

It's a different thing.

But we can get the same thing three weeks from now.

Until the 30th, which is the anniversary of the Cambodian speech.

Yeah, I can do that.

Do you want to tie it to that anniversary?

No.

You don't want to talk about it?

We just will be good.

The thing about the date I made one is, I'm not sure that we ought to do those editors on television.

you know, just 10 days after this speech.

I would not say that this speech is a normal written speech, but since it had an emotional impact, I mean, it hit some other beams on us.

Could I understand the idea being that we'll go later or not, but the idea of this going on now, the general impression will go on again, you know, right away.

You know, we made that mistake once before, remember, I did the State of the Union.

in the first year and then in the second year, and then got the next week, had a press conference, worked my butt off.

We didn't need the press conference the next week, you know what I mean?

We had it written already pretty well.

Mr. Schultz is obviously the second president.

But I'm not sure.

I think that I would be a little more comfortable with those editors, Bob, without being televised.

I agree with you.

Yeah, I knew that.

Well, I agree with you.

I'm just saying also, then also you're complimenting them to an extent.

They're not being yours as props.

Not that that makes much difference, but my point is, from our viewpoint, I am just not sure that I ought to go back now.

I think the dominating of the dialogue means being on television.

We were saying, we were saying twice a month,

I think once a month or once every three weeks, I don't know.

We were at home last night talking about the four-week schedule and I was saying I wouldn't be here next Friday night because we had a television.

And my wife said, he's not going back on television.

I said, yes, he's doing the newspaper editor's Q&A.

She said, he shouldn't be back on television.

She said, so he's been on too much.

And I said, Joe, he's been on with one press conference and this speech, and that's all this year.

And Howard Chase Smith.

And Howard Chase Smith and only 10 million people.

I said, you've seen them all.

You sit there and watch them.

And they are with Buddy Waters.

Oh, and another hour here for January 4th.

That was this year, wasn't it?

And of course the State of the Union.

But she's seen them all.

She's seen them all.

And I heard that and she said, I know that, but you still should be pushing.

And I said, well, our plan is to be on once a month with a press conference and once a month with something else.

And she said, that's way too much.

Because it has a tremendous effect when he's on, and you should just let him.

So do you mind if I read a few of these?

Now, I think we could now make the dialogue with other waves and other verses.

It depends, but I just feel the editor should not be on next week.

That's what I think.

I think it would be, first of all, it's not a requirement.

I really feel that that makes sense.