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Conversation 483-013

TapeTape 483StartTuesday, April 20, 1971 at 1:12 PMEndTuesday, April 20, 1971 at 1:25 PMTape start time02:29:58Tape end time02:42:15ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Kissinger, Henry A.Recording deviceOval Office
AI Summary

President Nixon and Henry Kissinger discussed a recent meeting between the President and Marcel Naville of the International Red Cross, during which Naville attempted to lecture the administration on the conduct of American soldiers in Vietnam. Nixon expressed strong indignation at this perceived lack of neutrality and instructed Kissinger to maintain a firm stance against international officials who criticize U.S. policy. The two also addressed broader geopolitical strategy, focusing on leveraging relations with the USSR and the PRC to protect American interests and prevent domestic political opposition from weakening the nation's global military posture.

International Red CrossMarcel NavilleVietnam WarU.S. Foreign PolicyGeopolitical StrategyMilitary Conduct
AudioNARA Description

On April 20, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon and Henry A. Kissinger met in the Oval Office of the White House from 1:12 pm to 1:25 pm. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 483-013 of the White House Tapes.

Nixon Library Finding Aid
Conversation No. 483-13

Date: April 20, 1971
Time: 1:12 pm - 1:25 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger.

     The President's meeting with International Red Cross
          -Marcel Naville
          -Naville's message to the President
                -Clark MacGregor
                -Translation from French
                -Behavior of American soldiers
          -North Vietnamese
                -Humaneness
          -Naville's possible action
                -Geneva
                -State Department
                -North Vietnamese
          -Single standard
          -U Thant
          -Internationals
                -Attitude Towards US
                -President's position
                -Union of Soviet Republics [USSR]
                -People's Republic of China [PRC]
                -North Vietnamese
                -USSR
                      -Hungary

                       -East Germany
                       -Czechoslovakia
                       -Poland
            -Possible North Vietnamese message to Naville

******************************************************************************

[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-023. Segment declassified on 04/24/2019. Archivist: MAS]
[National Security]
[483-013-w001]
[Duration: 6s]

      The President’s meeting with International Red Cross
             -Henry A. Kissinger’s opinion of the Swiss
             -The President’s opinion of the Swiss

******************************************************************************

     The President’s meeting with International Red Cross
          -Kissinger's conversation with Naville
               -US soldiers
               -Neutrality

     American people
         -Leadership group

     The President’s schedule
          -The President's meeting with Republican legislative Congress leaders
               -Hard-hats
               -Bureaucracy

     The President's previous meeting with International Red Cross
          -Prosecution of offenses
          -North Vietnam
          -US treatment of POWs
               -South Vietnamese treatment of POWs
               -Peaceniks

     Laos

          -US policy
          -William H. Sullivan
          -Congressional hearings

     USSR
         -Anatoliy F. Dobrynin's schedule

******************************************************************************

[Previous National Security (B) withdrawal reviewed under MDR guidelines case number
LPRN-T-MDR-2014-023. Segment declassified on 10/24/2019. Archivist: MAS]
[National Security]
[483-013-w002]
[Duration: 4s]

      Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]
             -Anatoliy F. Dobrynin’s schedule
                    -Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] verification of schedule

******************************************************************************

     Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR]
          -US position
                -PRC
                -Elections
          -US defenses
                -Public opinion
          -Negotiations
          -PRC
          -Leonid I. Brezhnev
          -US elections
          -President's PRC initiative
         -US position
         -Strategic Arms Limitation Talks [SALT]
          -Middle East
          -Berlin
                -Willy Brandt
          -Cambodia
          -Dobrynin

     The President's meeting with International Red Cross officials
          -The President's position
          -Naville's request regarding Vietnam
               -US position
          -U Thant
               -New York Times

     U.S. posture in the world
          -John F. Kennedy
          -Lyndon B. Johnson
     Opponents of the President's policies
          -Peaceniks
          -Supersonic Transport [SST]
          -Antiballistic Missile [ABM]
          -Defense appropriations
          -View of US world role
          -Military-industrial complex
          -Ghettos
          -World war
          -USSR
          -Nuclear danger
          -USSR
          -Future of America
                -Turn towards the right
                -George C. Wallace, Ronald W. Reagan
                -Leadership
                -Administration policies
                      -PRC initiative
                      -USSR
                      -Swiss

The President and Kissinger left at 1:25 pm.
Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

You know what the message was simply, that he was going to have a meeting with the...
Well, he didn't really have... No, I asked him.
I took him to my office.
He told McGregor he had a message for you in French.
He wanted somebody to translate it.
But he wanted to make sure... All he wanted to tell you was to tell the soldiers to behave humanely.
Oh, God, that was...
I think it needed to be said.
Otherwise he'd go running out and say, soldiers, man, what in the name of God did they do?
Well, to tell the President of the United States.
Sit here and lecture us.
He knows what the hell they're doing and he knows how humane they are.
And I'm not going to allow it to happen.
I think it was essential.
And he'll go back, of course, and he'll pour a bowl over Geneva about that.
A little boy should stay back pretty tough.
Also, he'll tell the party in the meeting that's pretty tough.
That's the only thing that's going to make any goddamn good or have that many makes any difference.
And I mean rough, too.
It's going to be rough.
Did I just start taking the final word from that?
Right.
I hope for Christ's sake to sit there and say, tell the boys to please be kind.
Why the hell doesn't he say that to some of them?
Where's the single standard?
Oh, there you are.
Now, I'm not glad you mentioned Utah and Tulsa to these people.
Why not?
I'll go to the old man and tell him.
Absolutely.
They're not going to take this anymore.
They're not going to take it.
They're just going to tell you what they want.
You see, these international people, they run around in there.
As I said, kicking the United States around.
We sit there and say, well, we're sorry.
We hope we do better.
Screw that.
I don't hope we do better.
I hope they kill those bastards.
I'm really being, I'm going to get gutted.
We're not going to take it anymore.
Why don't they tell the Russians?
Why don't they tell the Chinese to meet with me?
Why don't they tell the North Vietnamese to meet with me?
Why the hell did they move in and tell the Russians to quit?
They talk about internal services.
Did they say anything about Hungary?
Did they speak to the Russians about Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland?
It's about her to ask, and I don't know if that would be too far.
Oh, I thought maybe the North Vietnamese had given him some sort of a message.
That's in fact why I said it.
Otherwise, the message will be that they will see him.
That is significant.
That is significant.
But you left.
I never left.
I've never gone up that record stand.
I say, well, I'll do the best I can.
No.
How was it?
Oh, and you were very aloof there at the end.
Oh, yes.
Oh, I think he needed it.
He was shaking as he walked out.
He said to me, I took him to my office to make sure that he didn't have a message he didn't want to get in front of the other guy.
And all he wanted to say was,
to make sure our prisoners, our soldiers behaved.
But he also wanted to make sure you understood he wasn't really neutral, he was an outsider.
That's right.
Yes, he didn't say that.
Well, I thought I'm not going to take this.
I think you're weird enough.
Mr. President, without you, I mean you, that's the basic of my concern.
How do you know, Henry?
You have read all the evidence.
We have such a weak...
We have a table here.
The table is all right, but the leadership group is unbelievable right now.
What's that?
The table is all right.
I know.
I know.
What I meant is I know.
I said, you know what, just let me believe.
I'll tell you, they are gonna, these little bastards from the bureaucracy should come in here and whine and limber around like him about Americans.
And then, can you just tell them to please be nicer boys?
Now, come off of that.
He prosecuted over a hundred, about the death of Christ, and then he said he'd be getting a medal in North Vietnam, and I thought, I don't know what he did about that.
And so does South Vietnamese.
They don't want to go back.
Do they?
Yes, he sure is.
He sure is.
Well, he's heard something else from me.
Oh, this will get around.
It always is.
and he coming tomorrow.
Who's going to ask?
He's going to ask Sullivan.
Why don't we have one of the committee members have some of the questions to ask him?
Are they prompting the committee member to ask?
A lot of them are going to ask Mr. Pitt.
I'm going to appreciate that.
Mr. Pitt's in real trouble.
The only other thing to do is to get him committed to an outrageous presentation.
Well, that's right.
Get him.
You say you're ready.
We'll be back tomorrow night.
All right.
Later.
You expect him to hear from me probably Thursday, don't you?
No later than Friday.
He may have to translate some of his things back.
Is that it?
All right.
Oh, he's going to bring something.
He said he had a message.
Well, if not, I'll call him.
If not, you say, what the hell is the message here?
I don't know.
We'll break the channel, I think.
I don't want to fool him around.
But I think it's got to be, it's got to well be understood.
And you, for your bargaining purposes, sir,
You ain't gonna play.
And we'll explore the Chinese one of the hills if there's any way of exploring it.
But the other way, the other thing is Henry, he isn't gonna play.
Even though it probably is going to cost us our electricity, by God, we're going to wake this country up to danger.
I won't tell the country that we've got to get re-armed.
I'm not sure it's going to cost us.
I'm not sure.
It may, it may, it may.
If we put the other side of the...
The country is so, you know, rich.
But I think...
to make a bad explanation for the Russian, for the Chinese behavior.
It's apparent that they had to get in before, before Christmas did.
It took them from any other ground, they could have waited.
Let me tell you this, though, Henry, if they play, God knows we all know, but if they play,
Because you and I planned the whole goddamn thing, didn't we?
Listen, there wouldn't be a chance of a Russian play now, a year before the election, if we didn't have this kind of heat warming.
There wouldn't be a chance, you know that?
That's right.
And there wouldn't be a chance with the Russians if we hadn't made them so cool all along.
Yeah.
And they were going to get sold away the first year.
Oh, sure.
So?
Yeah, they would have given the Medice away.
Not the Medice, but Berlin.
They were going to give Berlin away.
Don't do anything for police, Ron.
Absolutely right.
The hell with it.
Don't give them a thing.
And if we hadn't, if you hadn't done tempo, you'd have... Basically, we gained with it.
I must release something.
We'll stay straight a bit, but that's something else, sir.
I don't know.
I don't know if I tried the Medice, but I couldn't.
I'll tell you what, there is not going to be any more bastards coming to this office.
Congressmen, senators, officials, bureaucrats, and the rest, in case the United States are out.
I'm not going to allow it.
They never have it.
This one I was really talking about.
He got the message.
That's why he's here.
That's a son of a bitch, Seager.
That was no good.
And he didn't have any guts.
Let him go back.
Oh, you sure did?
Yes.
Such a cheap shot.
Oh!
What kind of a shot?
Senator, would you think you could just do that?
It would help us in our dealings.
I said, now come off of this.
Oh, but you said it's going to be a very just presence.
It's going to be rough.
If they don't do it, it's going to be rough.
There's a letter right there.
He'll get that word back.
I don't think they're going to bomb the bottom.
You know what I mean?
Absolutely.
I thought it was a success.
He'll tell Utah.
Utah will tell the New York Times.
That's good, too.
I thought it was a success.
That's good, too.
The whole posture of this country is Kennedy period.
Henry Johnson fascinating around.
All of this is really, it's a disgrace what we've allowed this country to do.
And now this whole peacemaking crowd, you know, not like this thing, SST, failing to go that, failing and fighting the ADN, fighting on this miserable little piece of money for the armed forces.
What the Christ do they want this country to do?
They'll become a nothing.
They want this country to do.
They want us to lose.
They want us not to play a role.
They are too dangerous.
The power in our hands and so forth, the military-industrial complex.
And so what would they do?
So they would go out and rebuild the ghettos.
Mr. President, that would reduce the world war because it would become obvious after a while the Russians would take advantage of that.
At some point.
At some point.
And then you'd have to stand up at a time when you didn't have it.
And the Russians would know it.
That's right.
either lead to a collapse of this country...
I think it's more likely to collapse.
I don't see America ever standing up to a nuclear thing.
I never, never.
But what does that mean?
It means that the Russians then are going to block us right off the face of the world.
That's the problem.
Then this country will turn very red.
Because if we won't have a cloud, which way will it drag us?
I don't think so.
Maybe...
It could go left, but I will bet it would be left.
I think it would be at the Wallace Ranking, perhaps, with a different leader.
What we're going to do is to make the record.
Make the record that we've got to give the people a chance in this period not to go down that road.
I think the China movement, Mr. President, we can't get the Russians nothing.
We can rip off the two of them if we play a troll game.
Don't get sentimental about it.
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