Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Welfare Reform and Vietnam War

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Well, what he's done apparently is added, he's taken the Kirkendall group and added some others to it.

The purpose of this is to turn matters around.

Hell, I'm going to turn around.

Whatever support they may have given.

I don't know what they want to do, Bob.

There's no reason for me to go ahead.

It's like the Senate meeting.

What do you do about the Senate meeting?

Does that require any dissipation?

Does that understand?

After that, before the...

It's so large now.

This is so large.

Plus, it's no good.

Five or six maybe.

No, and not the whole staff.

This time we'll probably have about 30 in there.

It's really hard to do meetings if you want to satisfy so many because it's a big country.

It's a big country for us.

Don't satisfy many.

You satisfy many inadequately and none adequately.

So satisfy three or four adequately.

That's right.

And others, not at all.

See what I mean?

I never believe you ought to do the half-assed job for many.

It's our old story.

Raise the subject or...

I just don't know.

That's my point of reminder.

You sit there and preach to him or he doesn't...

Well, I'm going to have a little fighting and talking after this, hopefully.

I don't need to have somebody with me, election or war.

I know what those are.

It doesn't serve any purpose.

Now he was, he was, or did he?

No, he did not.

If you get on it again, I'm willing to do it.

I'm willing to hear anybody cry.

I just don't know.

I was not even pleased with the way the other one, it didn't upbeat me then.

That's right, it sure did not beat me in it, but that wasn't the real purpose.

I was hoping they'd go off and charge up while they were off lying around.

It wasn't that bad.

Moving along, see what you can do.

There's a lot of beating and stomping.

I love the agriculture, man.

You know, I...

Look at these positions.

I don't want an operator.

I don't want somebody that can run the goddamn department.

I want a safety.

We'll put an undersecretary in the running.

I'm really convinced right now that he's got a very good book, Admiral Anderson.

Sorry, I didn't ask you.

You were about to sit in there.

And you?

A good-looking, strong, vigorous man.

Yeah.

Anderson.

Yeah.

I don't think it's all that difficult.

I would threaten to step on him so he's believed.

I guess they don't.

We've done it pretty well.

He knows he's going to have to take away from him.

He's not frustrated and not overjoyed about that.

We'll get it soon, John.

He's still serving.

He's done for Sunday.

Who is he?

I don't know.

The President didn't consider what was the most effective way of doing it.

He's done it.

And then, Whitman wants to talk to the Attorney General about Dean Pulliam, that Pulliam's very anxious to get him out in the end.

He sent his to Doe and to Larry Summons.

I was pleased that Sparge had a fine Doe, you know, who's been out beating some bushes out and letting on some of the...

I mean, his trip to New York gave him a lift.

George can't be talking on B.

That's not going to be a George talking positively, because he easily jumps on everybody you find and complain about something.

Maybe you're doing some things that are right.

This is off-limiting, yes, David.

It's been off twice.

It's off two days.

It's down 9.9.

We're going to make it down some units.

It should drop back to maybe 9.30. Who knows?

Maybe go up again.

That's the way they do.

They always do.

Still, those guys make a lot of money.

I mean, what was your figure?

200, 262 billion dollars.

No more than that.

262, yeah.

Over a quarter of a trillion dollars.

Just think what that means to the institutions, the insurance companies, and the rest of their portfolios.

If it were that much more, they think there's that much more wealth.

From their point of view, it is.

Also, if you realize how that pushes their borrowing power.

There's that much more that is available for the dollar.

Their base is just raised way up.

At that point, you get out of some situation, you want to put it out there.

I figured somebody could say, you know, looking at the economic factory, $200 billion.

The market was on that period of time.

There is a theory of some market people that the market can pull the economy up once it starts moving.

I don't really have any idea what to do about it.

I think we're doing all we can.

I hope that the country still is not going to be... What do you think?

I think what you'll find is an awareness that there's a demonstration of it.

They don't really know who it is or what they're doing.

It's about the same old variety of people who are demonstrating it.

In general line of disapproval, I don't think you're going to find that people are exempt.

Could I ask one other thing that you could include in the poll?

I'd like to poll the welfare involved.

Yeah.

But in this way, the way it would be said is the president mentions that those who are welfare and who refuse to take a job should be...

It would take an awful lot of effort.

But then the idea of the menial job, you know, it would take some welfare workers who, you know, opposed President's plan because they didn't believe in it.

I don't know how to build it, but I believe in it.

You know, menial people don't want that.

Take a job, even though it is a kind of job, not of the individual seeking, not the kind of work the individual is seeking.

Take it, it's an available job, and a job that is available.

Senator was loaded a little against us as well, even though it's manual labor.

Why don't you put it that way?

Even though it involves manual labor, it's not going to be on the individual.

The individual welfare is even bent with the commitment that the President makes to the plan, that the welfare would be to take any

I don't know.

And you asked Sapphire to include another trust in the welfare of the Chamber of Congress.

Is that next Monday?

It's on Monday.

No?

Yeah.

On welfare, what would be in there?

You see, if you hit a rip, if you hit a good point, what they would do is they'd hit it again.

But, uh, again, I am not for a guaranteed annual income.

and by the way to say and in the comments the cost of describing the character whatever it is the right to earn society you have a right to earn income society you work to achieve

I began to dig out of my 1966, I think it was, speeches.

I had a little section on that.

The idea that where I said that they say that you give a man free medicine, free housing, and guaranteed a job.

And I had worked up, you can't remember the language, regardless of whether he works.

That's very society.

Sometimes can't be reused exactly, but the thoughts can be brought up.

Seems like it was that fire.

What's the right thought there?

I'm curious if that welfare thing has gotten the reaction it was mentioned this morning by Johnny Marks and Wilbur Mills that it doesn't mean to simply tell the question, it doesn't mean to lose several votes for us.

Why don't you sit on that?

I don't know about you, but I hear it on television.

I hear it on television, on the news, on the TV news.

If they all watch that news, it shows that we get something out of it, that we needed to get it, right?

Yeah.

And if you say, we probably got a bigger play in the news because, and in the papers, because the leftists thought they were hurting each other.

What do you think?

I think so.

I think they thought you had said something bad and they were delighted to jump on it.

Yeah.

Bad, because you were taking on the welfare people.

Yeah, they were trying to tell them they had to do the work, they had to do the work.

Right.

Meaning the work was the key thing, don't you think?

And the other, they said that I will not be guaranteed an income.

Just, just up and saying that was good.

That's the one Dole wrote.

I think if you were to ask people that same question, most of them would support it.

I think that it would work.

Thank you.

Mr. Sturges.

Mr. Rogers.

but I guess he's decided to send him home.

Decided to hire him, probably.

And then Hague's sitting there, jerked further than intended.

Nobody's trusting him.

I can talk to Rogers.

I can talk to him.

No, no, I can talk to him.

I don't know exactly what the thing is.

He's not worried about that.

He's worried about Rogers getting that, you know, franchise going.

Whatever he comes in to propose, that he gives him and he can say it.

Roger's far less than you watch Laird.

Laird, my name is Henry, and I always had Henry with Laird.

But Roger's was cautious enough to be moved.

We always have to remind ourselves, Bob, as you do, I'm sure, that there are two sides to the roster.

History and truths.

Now, Henry's, this is his last name, and he delivered his stuff.

That was put in there for the purpose of irritating the state, just as sure as hell.

You know what I mean?

Well, not so much your day-to-day.

We can build up the NSC system.

That's it.

Nobody does shit.

Nobody really cares about other things.

What really counts in the end is that we, over a period of time, will succeed.

If we succeed, that's our big penny of credit.

I gave you a statement, and that's about all of it.

He said, we don't care who they know.

Then we had a speech, which was on Cook.

I said, Cook did a very good speech for him.

He called out a lot of people in the area.

Then we went to dance.

He wrote a dance for me about what I'm enthusiastic before.

He has a niece in Spain.

She's a college graduate.

or something, you know.

Somebody over there, one of our basic secretaries would have them.

She speaks both Spanish and French.

She's a big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big.

He was telling me that up at Harvard, he was disturbed by the collation of the record.

I think from that I would gather that the more violent voices are heard.

What I'm getting at, I don't know.

Maybe it's the Rainey Davis crowd up there.

Maybe everybody's more violent.

I don't know.

That is the reports we get.

It's generally that they're going to talk the other way.

What you were saying, they were trying to cool it.

You don't do a favor to a person by helping him or herself by giving him the opportunity or the capacity to help himself.

That's a good thing for a sapphire diver to be able to do.

He says that he finds as he travels around that he finds a number of these people there.

Excuse me, did you want to say something?

I believe he was going to recommend that Al Hague sit on the main .

I've got all of those .

And I kept, when Rogers asked to see me, to bring Hay in and say, sit here, Hay, and take notes.

Just don't do it.

I didn't do it with Connolly.

No.

The thing is, it was a trip that he's concerned about.

I said, gee, when Rogers gets on the trip, come in.

Same time as Claude.

Just sit him up, let me have a hug, come in.

Could be gone.

I have it all in my head.

I know exactly what to do.

I know what he's going to read.

He's going to change one bit to have Al Hays over there taking notes.

I'll type in the notes.

I'll remember.

He thinks that this is apparently the junior con operation.

The idea of getting out.

all over since they re-run before you because they consider denying part of their, you know, their city.

And what they need to do is to get the total picture.

Why don't you have a school for the sub-cabinet?

Other people on this mountain, they sort of get a...

As a matter of fact, we even had a guest talk to him about the success he's had.

He goes on television in the South, and he makes speeches all over the South.

He knows if I talk a little about the programs, but he does talk a hell of a lot about them.

So typically, there's another Democrat, a former Democrat.

Yeah.

by emphasizing the man other than the program.

There's three of them now, three cases.

Do we have any one of our Republicans that have been talking man other than program?

I would be right if I did, but what I meant is, are any of them have seen this thing so clearly, these Democrats?

I didn't mention the difference between the two parties, not until they got pushed into it and started doing it.

The two parties have that difference, Bob.

Democrats have always personalized everything.

Republicans have always processed everything.

Democrats don't govern as well, but they're better politicians.

I had the idea, but I probably shouldn't have suggested it without getting through more what to do.

It needs to be programmed.

But I think what we need to do is to get these out of the way and then have them pick four or five.

The way to do that is to say, hey, that's a good job.

And the background certainly is the flag.

She's great.

She's a Democrat.

The paper, there's a story in the paper, there's some feature story picture of her in the flag.

She's a Democrat?

Yeah.

A Democrat.

Didn't vote for years.

I know she didn't vote.

She's so young.

She's a silent majority person.

She thought she should know that there's a lot of people out there.

The story gets better.

She said she had no idea she was going to send it in to you.

She had no idea she had a chance to see you.

And then Congressman Marsh said, you come in and give it to Henry Song.

Brought her in and she gave it to you.

Like a part of her.

Her small child then was her.

So you can count 24 years ago.

It was, I'm sure it was.

It was an congressional half hour or open door hour or something.

It was last September.

Well, one of our staff must have given that off, given the call on the name.

As they referred to the fact that you had mentioned it.

Yeah, please.

Bless the ladies.

I thought this was a good story, too, that she was a Democrat and didn't vote for you.

What?

Yeah, I'll record it.

It's only recorded.

I can participate in it.

I'll record it.

I'd like to remember what Roger says.

Sir, may I ask if you'd please participate?

Sir, it's the purpose of even Roger, saying that Roger's not being able to say something.

I was there to springboard off the meeting and do something on the basis that, you know, don't bother me with that person that I discussed with when you weren't there.

He's capable of doing this.

I'll follow him.

It isn't just Rogers then.

That's right.

Mitchell pulled the same thing yesterday, the antitrust case.

It's an avoidable process.

Anybody, the staff people go to each other too.

And they'll come in and get you to agree on a schedule then or something without raising you.

Actually, Mitchell has never, Mitchell has disagreed with

Mitchell, I think it misunderstood what John talked to him about.

John didn't want to drop the case against the networks.

Good God, if he ever thought of anything else, he thought it was mine.

Because I sue the networks.

I'm strongly for suing the networks.

But John's point was don't sue them now.

And I couldn't agree more.

It's all about Mitchell.

Mitchell had the impression, but he said, he said, I don't want this case to go to the next trial.

I said, they don't.

I was surprised that Mitchell raised it with me beforehand.

I was surprised.

I didn't think he would want John.

John did have the impression that's what he wanted to do.

John Mitchell.

John mentioned it.

He got the wrong impression from John Earthman.

Because John Earthman, I think John Earthman had no idea.

In fact, there's a memorandum in here that says, let Colson handle it or something like that.

And Colson can handle it.

Let me say, we're going to sue them.

We're going to rape those bastards if we can.

Believe me.

This won't break the deal.

I mean, we're going to break it every time we can.

They were all good.

And we're having fun.

The merits are clear, as I understand it.

And the members expect it.

That's right.

In fact, what my work has already been doing is they're always fulfilling their can.

That's right.

The point that I'm making is this.

I want to harass them.

I want to make it economically difficult for them to do business.

I want to kick them in the ass every time we can.

That's my attitude.

But they took him, sir.

They said, what the hell?

He raised the point on the other case, on the IT&D case, that we...

It would politically be bad to drop it now, because the solicitor general had already prepared the case.

All right, fine, I agree with that.

Politically, we have to look for crisis in the future, get together some of these other people, and let's avoid any of these cases in the future.

He's agreed to that now.

You should report to John.

They have this group set up now for...

I was still waiting on the picture today from the press with Rogers.

Sure.

I mean, has he returned from the OAS going on to London?

Sure.

I was, uh, let me have a good picture with me.

I never got to take a picture with you.

Why don't you, uh, why don't you get a picture with me tomorrow?

They're looking at those veterans down there.

The picture that was posted this morning showed the two of them in very clean shape, nice looking, all American types.

Back, back, back.

You mentioned that.

We were looking back.

Is that true?

That's the first good picture?

Yeah.

There's a guy who's coming up on TV.

Do you see him today?

Do you see him today at the arrest?

But this morning in terms

The Democratic judge is trying to screw us.

Senator Hart, you know, tried to do a sensitive Senate resolution.

We walked to let them use the mall.

And in effect to go to the right of order.

It didn't work.

They gave him 15 minutes.

When he got to the time to vote, did somebody call for, well, absence of a quorum, and by the time they got the quorum, everybody around 15 minutes was up, so they never got around to voting.

That's what I would have liked.

It all got screwed up.

It would have been good to have had a vote, and I'm sorry I missed it.

Basically, I suppose.

I don't want to argue it enough.

It's been a joy.

He goes to five, he's going to another five.

Let's talk about his home phone being tapped.

Home phone?

You're right.

I thought we were going to talk about the oil industry or his girlfriend.

I thought it is.

The oil industry.

Well, we know the oil industry is tapping his girlfriend because they put this girl on a sleep with him who's supposed to get some stuff done and now they don't trust her.

They're attacking her.

I'm sure she's telling them the right stuff in the sack.

She must be a sort of devil.

She's better than us all.

This posture coming out of the morning briefing was one of restraint.

You are leaving matters to the appropriate agencies under the general point of view that

the agency should proceed in a way that would not- Let's say like integrating or desegregating the schools, we're trying to do it by cooperation rather than coercion.

Just saying that.

We had an order there regarding desegregations.

you know.

But instead of putting people in jail and ramping around, we just said cooperate.

That's what we're trying to do with these nice, clean-shaven veterans down there.

These good Americans.

He says we can't find the nice clean-shaven veterans.

Are you sure they weren't some of the senator's aides or something?

Well, they could have been.

They could have been.

Interesting thing.

An interesting thing in a briefing came up from the press guys

I said that, you know, I used the line, the president feels, as he said before, people should have, in this country, have a right to express themselves and be peaceful and so forth and stuff like that.

And then they said, well, Ron, does the president feel that... No, no, no.

Does the president feel that blocking the bridges and so forth that is planned for next week is a rightful way to express himself?

And I said, gentlemen, I'm not going to have a comment on reported activity in the future, but...

It was an interesting parallel that was attempting to be, you know, drawn there.

Well, don't worry.

At that time, we were going to be hard as hell.

They started locking bridges and throwing them right off the culverts.

Then he went back out.

I think I saw him again, Senator Purves.

Yep.

He said, I'm with you all the way.

He did?

Senator from Maryland?

Well, I was a senior senator from Maryland.

The reason that the people won't listen to you down there is because they're afraid of you.

Why are they afraid of us?

He said, because they don't know you down there the way I know you.

What does he mean down there in the White House?

He says, I think they may be afraid of you.

He said, I think they may be afraid of you.

You know, he had this

I think it may be because they're afraid of you, but that's probably because they don't know you like I do.

Like I do.

All these senators, the way they stuck around is absolutely nuts.

Let them do it.

It's just great.

Let them just... For who, the senators?

Senators.

Do that sucker.

No, I don't.

I don't.

You're sickening the way these guys act.

And I don't think, I really don't think even a guy who's against the war and wants you to get out today is going to be very proud of his United States senator down there acting like that.

It just doesn't look good.

I don't think people like unmanly.

That's my opinion.

I may be wrong.

Maybe the country has gotten, frankly, maybe the whole country may be clear.

I think it's going to catch up to these countries.

I don't think there's a sharp public attitude now.

I think people might be going to say, well, you know, Kate divorce, you know, we went out and so forth.

And then they see the senators down there smiling and saying, if you can be bivouacked in Vietnam, you can be bivouacked in Washington.

Is that what you said?

If they could find a place to build a WACU in Vietnam, they ought to be able to find a place to build a WACU here in Washington.

What are they asking?

We've given them places to fiddle at, for Christ's sake.

They've given them bowling fields, and they've given them Kennedy Stadium.

They won't go.

They won't fiddle at it.

And the National Cathedral, a pillar of strength, your great friend, the Dean of Heritage, they've offered them the cathedral grounds.

If it rains, they can have the Bethlehem Chapel.

But three months from now, four months from now, these guys have been handing them over to the House of Lords.

That is when it's going to catch up with these guys.

Do you think it will catch up with them?

I think it will, yes sir.

I think there's some damn good footage there of Teddy Kennedy, the presidential candidate, with a coffee.

Interesting.

It could be.

And we'll say, here he is.

There he is.

I think that's our strength.

Do we have that footage, though, or can we get it from off the networks?

How do we do it?

We have a table, most of them.

He hasn't.

We take that side.

And we can find the original equation in that one.

But I'm talking more about the country's attitude toward the people who are now very clearly finding themselves, or associating themselves with this movement of the moment, or this action of the moment.

That's some pretty good things to say today.

New Hatchie does.

What did he call them?

New Hatchie does.

He says, all these new doves are hatching out all over the place.

And you look around, and there's another dove hatching out there.

So they were surprisingly quiet during the 1960s, when the Democratic administration were sending thousands of troops into South Vietnam.

He says, now, when the administration

He's bringing the world to a conclusion.

They're all hatching up.

New doves are hatching up.

Well, that's it.

God, that's great.

You know, it's kind of interesting.

Well, there's some in there, too.

If you get the two Ohio Senators, they're all doing something great.

It's all over.

I'm sorry.

Why don't you sit here while we talk?

I'm going to hear you.

You can stay here and talk.

It's all right.

All right.

Welcome to your house.

But if you were in there on houses, that's just full sure fire.

If you want it over here, over there.

We tried outside.

We did outside before.

We actually had a picture outside with the French

When she says the chair's not even stiff, it's just cold as hell.

The new Henshaw Doves.

That Bob called a Dove.

They were very interesting.

We've got the Henshaw Crown Henshaw Cat and Sac State here.

Sac State.

He said, you know, if you had to look around, there's another dove hatching somewhere.

He said, I wonder where all those people were in the 60s when the Democratic administration was taking the troops by the bowels into Vietnam.

He said, oh, we're hanging out with the bowels, and they're all hatching.

Well, these doves are hatching.

That's right.

I didn't think he was that colorful.

He said, I think we can look at the clock.

He thinks we will.

Well, that's good.

Why is that?

Well, it's a little bit of a thing, isn't it?

What do you think of the veterans?

How do they look?

How do they seem?

I'm with you all the way.

Great feeling.

They can find a place in Vietnam, they ought to be able to find a place to bivouac you here in Washington.

He went in to talk to them and he said, this is all a communications problem that you fellows have.

I think those people down there, sorry about the White House president, he said, I think they're afraid of you.

I think that's the problem.

And the vet said, well, why are they afraid of us?

He said, well, I think they're just afraid, they probably don't understand you the way I do.

Miserable slob.

Nixon, Haldeman & Ziegler on Welfare Reform and Vietnam War

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on April 22, 1971

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