Conversation 491-010

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Hello, how are you doing?

That is Senator Mendoza with you, is it?

Yes, one hour and a half.

Yes, our old friend.

Our old friend.

Come on over and sit down here.

Press the red signal.

Sure, sir.

Sit right here, too.

And if you sit here, I'm ready for you to sit there.

I'm sorry.

Are you used to this?

Old times?

Yes, yes.

Particularly out of those offices there and so forth.

Henry, you see Henry's office?

Yes, yes.

We had it in the basement before, now we've got it upstairs.

We should have taken that show in your office.

Or did we?

That's where we had the lunch.

We had lunches at 10 o'clock.

Yeah, I heard he's too modernistic.

Yeah, I think so.

He's the only one that's for modern painting and all that.

Oh, that's right.

But we accept it because he has old ideas.

Oh, he doesn't go to his house.

I hope.

And if you, if you keep them one of these days long enough, they get better.

What are you doing here?

Well, pennies are not so bad.

I mean, I don't know what you mean.

No, no, sit down.

We can always get a better picture here.

That is the government's other name, and we go out there after them.

And that's when he came to tell us about the silver tacks.

And that's when he came to tell us about the whole thing he was telling us about.

And he said, he got one, and he forgot the name of the tacks.

I remember that when I was there back in the day, I don't know if you were there, but the last time I saw him, he was way down.

Well, maybe we'll talk about that.

At the end, he had to go to this place, this place, this place down here.

I saw you on the scene.

Yes, I was at the end of the procession for the mass.

And I'm not, I'm not going to fall.

and he has to die in the future.

He has to die in the future.

I don't know.

I saw him three weeks before he died and he was in cancer.

It's good that he went that way at the last moment, like that, because he would have killed him, you know, for the old...

He's going to tell it in his eyes, you know.

It's worth it.

He would have killed him.

Yeah, because he would have known.

He would have known.

Well, I'm always interested, as I told Dr. Kistler, to talk to many of our friends from...

Well, we're calling... We know that...

period.

I don't mean difficult in terms of your economies.

They always do really well there.

But it's only a question of how well.

I've got a few problems, but I'm still weak.

But I think it's difficult in terms of this whole east-west relation.

And we here, of course, want to

to keep in touch in return with the other two leaders of the federal republic.

Normally, because of the time factor, we can't see those who are not in Europe, but with your country and with the British.

And we do, and that's why we want you to come.

And also, there's another reason.

You're an old friend.

I remember you saw me when I had a lot of offices, and we were glad to see you.

And you're still here.

Have you got an apartment?

Yes, I promise.

If you don't have an assistant, we have your show.

Sir, what are the regulations?

The government has all the rules on abhorrence.

We don't have a single, I don't know, abhorrence.

Is the minister lost?

Yes.

Good to see you.

Well, that's good to see you.

I heard you.

Sure.

I'll take off.

Thank you.

As a rule, the members of our cabinet are at the same time members of Parliament with one exception, and that's the Minister for Scientific Questionnaires, Mr. Lysing.

He's not a member of Parliament.

And all the others aren't.

So there are at the same time the ones who draft the bills, submit the bills, and legislate on them.

Well, the number of candidate members accounts for approximately 5% of all members of Parliament.

Well, with the Berliners,

The representative of Berlin is 517.

We leave them out as 500.

And the cabinet has at most 25.

So that means 120.

We have accepted to introduce another principle of what we call parliamentary state secretaries, and that increases the number of cabinet members.

Well, that may help to increase and enhance the interest of a number of critical members of Parliament in the work carried out by the government in Texas.

Mr. President, I would like to ask you how you see the West-East relationship, what worries you the most?

probably in connection with the Berlin-Sorn talks, the kind of common European security competition or not, and how the West-East relationship looks in relation to the Middle East.

Well, Mr. President, with your permission, I'd like to ask you your views and your assessment on the general problem of the East-West relations.

What are your main problems?

What are your main concerns and worries?

How do you see a link with the Berlin talks, with Seoul, with the question of whether there should be a European Security Conference or not, in how the East-West problems fit into the problems concerning the Middle East?

Well, the Berlin talks are going on.

There's still a great deal of difference between the parties concerned.

Our position is to some kind of a settlement which would avoid the recurrent crises cutting off access to her land.

That settlement must be one which recognizes the fact that it is part of the federal republic.

Now, as far as the, as far as the activities, the political activities that are taking place that are concerned, that's a matter that can be, has to be, of course, discussed and negotiated.

But I feel it's very important that the position be maintained that

It's access from a physical standpoint, from an economic standpoint, from a political and political standpoint, to a federal republic that cannot be copied.

That's the key to a settlement.

As far as the East-West relationship is concerned,

Nothing new to report except to say that we continue to have some hope.

at the SALT negotiations.

We continue to work on it far apart, but the discussions are serious.

And I have a feeling that both sides, the Soviet Union and the U.S., would like to have some kind of settlement.

That's how it will not be won over, which will in any way reduce our, not only our, but the NATO and other nations.

That is ruled out quickly, only with strategic, long-range weapons and offensive.

That's the matter we're discussing.

Now,

The meetings, as you know, Secretary Rogers will be there in a few days.

His trip should not be expected to be one to produce any sensational announcement.

It is one which he's taking for the purpose of discussing the matter with the Israelis and the U.A.R.

Sadat and the others.

He does not have, does not expect that as a result of this trip and these talks that the two sides are going to in the near future agree and overall agree.

We continue to hope for, we continue to work toward, one, a maintenance of the city's fire, a maintenance of this balance of forces, balance of strength on both sides so that neither side is tempted to begin.

which would break the ceasefire, and a continuation of the dialogue, to the extent that dialogue is going on.

But candidly, the stability of the first overall center is very far off.

a partial agreement, say, on Suez.

There's been a lot of speculation about that.

I don't know if you want to say that that's something that we...

I think it's very important that we do not allow the current discussions

for example, on the German problem, on Berlin, of course, etc., that that created a euphoric attitude in NATO.

Actually, well, it involves, actually, a more normal communication between the people of the Federal Republic

Germany, and of course other countries in Eastern Europe, and perhaps some more normalization of the access roads to Berlin, and a recognition of citizens of Edinburgh, and perhaps economy as a whole.

of our occupation, but also the fact that there is a tie, a tie between the federal republic and...

But we are quite realistic in knowing that this does not mean that these matters are being discussed

And this does not mean that the Sudden Agreement is reached, that then Europe changes, the Soviet changes, and therefore we change.

Everything must go step by step.

As far as the European Security Conference is concerned, our attitude has been and is that we've been mature to have one now.

It may not be pretty sure to discuss all the same good sides.

And so we don't know.

The point about that is that the conference should be held when it appears that there's something that we can discuss and something substantive can come out.

I don't mean by that that you wait for a conference until we are sure to be here.

The two systems are too far apart.

The governments have too great differences.

I mean, I mean, the governments of communist Europe and non-communist Europe are too great for that kind of so-called

On the other hand, progress can be made on a number of fronts, and that appears that substitute progress can be made on, say, or perhaps reducing the tension.

Mr. President, I am grateful that you have spoken about this.

I share your concern that there should be no euphoria in the aftermath.

And in this regard, in my opinion, it is of great importance

that the contribution of Britain to the European Community will be treated as positively as possible.

I do not know how you think about this point.

I am of the opinion that if this contribution of Britain would not be a success this time, that would be very bad for the European Union.

only for the pleasure of the Russian sea and also for the European-American context, a significant impact has been made.

Mr. Minister, I'd like to hear you make this point.

Of course, I wasn't sharing with you that we should avoid the euphoria attitude in NATO.

In that connection, it's very important that the negotiations on the accession of red and black vehicles can be brought to positive results soon.

And I don't know what your views are, but I feel that this...

If at this time the negotiations will not produce successful results, it would be very bad, extremely bad for cohesion within Europe.

It would only benefit the Russians, who also impair relations between the United States and Europe.

You mean the negotiations between Britain and the United States?

Yes, yes.

Yes, I would like to say one thing.

So, we are very tired, yes, at the Bilderberg Conference we said that you should really only do everything that can take you directly or indirectly into this matter, because not every matter is considered to be of very vital interpretation.

Well, aye.

We are seriously trying to be as helpful as we can in order to bring that event to the billiarder conference.

I made it quite clear that all those who can either directly or indirectly make the appearance ought to be encouraged to do so, because this meant that the exertion of Great Britain to the common party is of vital importance.

Well, our views on that, as you know, are

We cannot, we cannot, of course, insinuate, but I feel that Britain being Europe is important to Europe, it's important to Britain, and frankly, it's important to that great balance that is essential for the future, the balance in the world, because Europe will be stronger

with Britain, and to us, a strong, vital, economic Europe, and a strong Europe to the extent possible, militarily.

The Europe can be a cohesive economic, military, and where political cooperation is possible, political Europe.

In my view, it is in the interest of the United States.

Some here do not agree with that, some in our country.

They do not agree with it because they fear

the building of this great power center.

Because, in my view, the world will be safer if we have the United States strong, and we have Europe strong, including Britain, and we have, of course, the Soviet, and we have China, and we have Japan.

So you've got five vectors here.

If they're all strong and all relatively balanced,

You've got a pretty great force.

That's the best what I can say.

how shall I put it, importance, as she has done now.

I don't want to confuse ping-pong with the very difficult considerations that would otherwise exist.

But I am wrong in the assumption that possibly this problem of the end of the Vietnam War could also be eased by the progression of these movements

Well, I have one final question, Mr. President, which of course involves a good deal of speculation, but I have the impression that the process of Vietnamization could be encouraged, could be facilitated if the People's Republic of China continued to show this degree of mobility, mobility they have started showing,

Well, of course, I do not mistake the Ping-Pong team for the solution of all the difficult and intricate problems, but would you say that I am wrong to assume that the end of the Vietnam War would be facilitated if the People's Republic of China were to continue along the line they have started?

Well, that, of course, is speculation.

We would not indulge him, because if you read the public statements, the North Vietnamese say they don't care what the Soviet Union or the Chinese do, they're going to continue to fight.

On the other hand, the North Vietnamese cannot continue without substantial assistance from both China and Russia.

As far as we are concerned, I can only say that we have no indication at this time that the Chinese government might use its influence one way or another for that matter in the end of the Cold War.

I could put it, I could put it in another way.

The people who are calling to charity could play a very great part if it found that it was in its interest to do so.

But we have no information indicating that that time has yet come.

I think they, but it's a question that I can assure you that it's on the minds of many people.

I'm sure that it is.

Mr. Miller, I don't want to offend you with your speculative thoughts, but I would like to agree that this is a thought that many people in the world, more or less, think.

And I think they think from good motives, because they are aware that the Vietnam War is a heart-wrenching thing, especially for the Americans.

Well, of course, I didn't mean that you should repeat this idea.

I was thinking on that, but I only wanted to emphasize this idea because I'm sure that many people who were not thinking along this line were wondering whether this would be possible for good motives, for good reasons, because they know what a heart-rending affair this is to warn people.

Well, I know

I can only say that we are not basing our policy on the hope or the assumption that that may happen.

We, of course, welcome any action, whether by the Soviet or by the Chinese, that might help bring the war to a quicker end.

But as far as we're concerned, we're prepared to go through our own way.

And that may also have its effect too.

So either way, we're now coming so close to the end that it doesn't make as much difference.

The major problem being one of the major problems being...

break the war problem, which we'll have to have a war out with in a later time.

Is it more than that I'm willing to admit to vessel kind to, uh, at this, uh, well, I'm always, always glad to have you here to extend my best to all of our, our friends and so to your party and your country, the, uh,

And all you say is, Dr. Kirchner will tell you that in Europe, the strongest, most dynamic people in Europe are the Germans.

In Asia, the strongest, most dynamic people are the Japanese.

Now, each, in a way, has a problem.

They're very different, but it's similar in a way.

Each, because of its enormous economic strength and vitality, generally in Japan, denied nuclear capacity.

has a much greater interest, has the greatest interest, of course, in what happens in East-West relations because whether the United States remains a strong power with the necessary strength to deter nuclear adventures by other powers,

And the final analysis, your thing, and that of the gentleman.

Yes.

And with that in mind, all I can say is that we're aware of that, the responsibilities, and we'll need it.

.

Well, I'm most grateful to you for having made this point, James.

In one final sense, I feel great admiration for the Japanese, that they have one, they are the voice of one problem, which makes our situation so difficult, and that is the problem of divided countries.

Yeah, they're probably just simple Okinawans.

Who took care of that?

Well, we... Oh, they're getting along fine.

The main thing is, you, your people keep strong.

You're... the German...

I don't even know what you're...

They're hard people, strong people, and... and hold your course, and...

But in the end, they will prevail.

I'm not talking about that.

You can speak of this as much as you can.

I'm not talking about this as much as you can.

I'm talking about this as much as you can.

So when you have strong people, you have a great answer.

Thank you so much for this.