On May 13, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, Henry A. Kissinger, H. R. ("Bob") Haldeman, William P. Rogers, and Alexander P. Butterfield met in the Oval Office of the White House from 9:28 am to 10:03 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 498-002 of the White House Tapes.
Transcript (AI-Generated)This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.
As soon as you rallied the troops, now he says, no compromise we can't have.
It can't be considered.
Well, this is a great thing.
It mobilizes our people to fight for a cause.
That's right.
He said yesterday, two days ago, he was worried that we'd lose all our people.
Today he's explaining that.
He's saying it's the natural tendency of legislators to seek a compromise.
He said we can't have it.
He said we will not compromise.
And it's great.
Chad, it's
For example, who all day yesterday kept phoning me with suggestions that the president will not yield.
Then he made his tough speech.
I told him we like that.
Now he's thinking of canceling a trip to Japan so that he can vote against Mansfield.
And Rockefeller's going to make a statement today supporting him.
I talked to him last night.
God, that means your establishment will always cover it.
Well, that's the point.
Well, that's what... Use it when you can.
This is wicked Nelson.
David has already sent a message.
Hello?
Yeah?
Yeah?
Hello?
All right, fine.
8 to 432, all right, good.
I'll tell you, the problem I think you've got with him, Bill, is we're concerned, you know, there just isn't any compromise on it.
We can do anything you want to do that.
And we can't, people, you know, now I'm standing up, but we can't do that.
But he's going to be beaten, and he's going to be beaten.
So I will see him, and of course I will see him.
Yeah.
Good.
It's nice of you.
Yeah.
Okay.
He's just going to be beaten.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Well then, you see, the other thing we have to realize is this is not a new position for him.
He used to take this position when Johnson was here.
He's always been able to bring home half the troops from Europe.
So I think that's the real problem we've got.
I frankly think that it's good to see it, but I would not press too hard on this figure.
if we could just keep him, keep his criticism, and rather good and decent his criticism on other issues, like Bob Dylan, he supports us on this China because he wants to go, but that's, but, no, no, no, but I mean, no, but I mean, even though he agrees with us on China, the other ones he disagrees, but he's decent about it.
He's the most decent guy out there, and that's where we, I think the real thrust that you ought to take is that
I think I'd sort of say this.
Look, as he knows, the President feels very appreciative of the fact, despite differences, we kept it on our eyes.
He said, in this case, I've got to, you want to know, we've just got to fight for this because we're going to NATO.
We've got an old war policy in state.
We've got to, we will not be first home.
We feel that what we have to do, I think it's a matter of time.
highest sort of along those lines, and then let him come to any conclusion he wants.
But I think he's got to know that he's in for a real fight on this, because it will not be personal on our part, but we have to pull all out.
They're integrated pockets, yeah, yeah.
They're all, when you think of the, when you think of how very nice we were on the Marshall Plan and NATO and all that, hell, we controlled the plane.
Well, alright, it's alright.
He's been alright.
I personally think this, I think he's going to go on this many events.
It's a matter of principle with him.
He believes it.
See, the Mansfield Amendment came up.
I remember even in 66, when I was out of office, he put up that damn amendment.
He only got about, he always got 25 or 30 votes in the Senate.
And now he'll get about 38 to 40, maybe 40.
The main thing with him is, of course, he's a compromiser.
And I've said very well, it has to be negotiated with our allies and with our enemies.
We can't do it on the Senate floor.
And we say that about ABM.
God, it's ten times as true here.
I don't think we're making progress with them, but I think we should also start upgrading their forces.
You know, we're talking, it's going to take some time, but it's a matter where our goal is the same, but we simply have to negotiate with our allies.
And what we're doing today, we'll, I just, if we can get every farmer.
He's going over to see, you know, Steve.
Well.
That's what he said.
Mr. President, Mr. Andrusk is entering the hospital today, but he says anything we want.
We should just sign his name, too.
Bill is really, he's not hot for answers.
I don't know if he's going to qualify.
I don't know how he is.
Of course.
The point is that Mr. Atchison is not going to support Bill.
Because
He just doesn't think it goes on.
That's not it.
I never thought the negative government would be next.
Bill Rogers was through some of them.
Usually it's the other way around.
Well, on this, he said it.
You heard what I said, so it's all right.
Right.
The major thing... We've got to be... We've got to be goddamn firm.
There's no compromise.
We also must be careful not to accept even a compromise that says we should negotiate with the Europeans to reduce our troops.
Because that's up to us.
We cannot have the Senate tell us what to do.
That was one of Percy's, and that Percy's not again.
Well, we're not going to do that.
I've incidentally sent a back channel to Brunt through that separate channel we have saying that some public statement by him would be extremely helpful so that we'll shake up these stuff.
Yeah, they all support him, right?
Because he's a socialist.
So therefore, science comes up and tells our socialists that he's... Cy Vance is coming down here today and he'll talk to Humphrey and Muskie.
Really?
Yeah.
And he said...
The main one he's got to talk to is Humphrey.
Muskie shifts on this.
He's already shifted.
Well, he shifted to our side.
No, he shifted back.
He shifted back again.
Muskie is supporting the Mansfield Resolution on our vote count.
Well, but I wonder, the Washington has all the coverage.
But see, they don't have any public, he hasn't made any statement that he shifted back, has he?
No.
Or has he?
No.
Well, but the way Vance said, the trick with Muskie is to catch him while he's flip-flopping on the right side.
That's a national leader.
What does he say is the trick with Hunter?
I don't know.
He's flip-flopping on the left side.
I think they are demonstrating this.
The beauty of this is, whether we win it to vote or lose, the establishment, it shows the total incompetence of the Democrats.
There isn't one of these leaders who has kept up.
I don't like any of these people over here except Anderson or Conway.
Nick Katzenbach dropped the board meeting of the New York hospital, whatever he is on, but it's an emergency meeting.
He's coming down specifically for us.
They all like to come.
How many of you have been here?
I have to list, I think, ten.
Should we have them in here, or should we have them in the cabinet room?
Probably the cabinet room, but now with Rogers and Blair, maybe as many, and good pastor, there'll be as many.
Yeah.
The way it ought to be set up, the Senate is set up, I don't have any, I have Rogers, of course, and Larry Siebert, they usually do one on my right and one on the left, but I have a mattress across the table from me.
And just, I wonder if the Vice President should be there.
No.
He's a red flag.
I mean, he attacked Cyrus Vance personally.
Vance will have to leave early.
No.
I didn't even call him.
That son of a bitch.
And he really has no standing.
It's interesting that... No.
Trust Harriman.
He's made a public statement.
He's devoting his time to giving you the opportunity to be a one-term president.
Well, so are the others.
Not the answers against me.
But they haven't.
They haven't seen that well.
No.
They haven't taken a clear-cut political decision for your defeat.
Harriman, also the way he talks about you around town, he's just a nasty old man.
Plus he won't hear what you're saying anyway.
And he and that shouldn't hate each other.
I think he's a disgrace to be your friend later, Isaac Muskie.
Muskie is out of his top picket mind to be buffing around on NATO.
He ought to be one way or the other.
He should have come out right away.
And the other thing is, yes, stand up.
Where are they?
They're standing up for crises.
I used to stand up for all these issues when I was out of office time and again.
Got no credit from the goddamn establishment.
I always defended NATO.
You know, the Republicans were shot in the 1960s.
Where are they at?
Disestablishment guys.
They ought to know who the hell they are referring to.
Acheson knows.
I think he understands.
Oh, Acheson is...
He disagreed with Cambodians quite a few.
Because...
He said he had to agree with Friday.
He's always against...
He was against...
Doing anything.
Anything in Korea.
Oh, hell no.
He's got a plug about that.
He's forgotten doing anything in almost any place.
I don't know why.
He's a stronger type than...
I totally agree.
He was against doing something in Korea because of his fear of the side-sign of Soviet business.
And for that reason, that colors his attitude toward doing anything anyplace else in the world.
Exactly.
That's it.
If Acheson had been for doing something in Korea, then he would have been for doing something here.
I think he has a reflex on it.
Exactly.
Because if Cambodia was right, then he was wrong on the other.
Oh, Cambodia was right.
Well, not public opinion.
Laos is right, too.
The best thing about Laos that Bob, you ought to have in mind is all these people who plan on never getting credit.
But it will finally see proof taken to casualties in the level of military activity since Laos.
from Laos, and since.
There has been no spring offensive, and that's when they had the offensive.
Now, something had to happen.
What happened?
Some people didn't even want to get the hell out of Laos.
No spring offensive despite the largest input of material in any period, including Ted.
That's right.
Now, one thing else.
Get it rolled.
Get it, get it, get that bowl there.
No, no more.
Tell them I want a little package for Bonn in the morning.
Right.
I want it done that fast.
Now, I don't think you should, I don't think you need to wait, you know, I think maybe this weekend's a good time.
I don't, I think, why, why does it have any relationship with the Russians?
Do you think there's a relationship?
Well, I think we shouldn't put it to the Russians making a choice.
We always, never, no, after we've made this announcement, no, no, after, after the 20th, let's get the announcement under the belt.
Let's not get that secret.
See, your problem is the same, too, with any kind of a summit announcement.
Once it comes, it's going to tie our hands.
You see, you've got to do anything you've got to do.
We want to be in a position to bang them.
But we've got to bang them somehow, Henry.
We cannot have them tear down our prisoner off or, you know, just kick us around in pairs.
We've got to do something.
I agree completely.
And I think, but I just think, Mr. President, to be, having gotten this close, we can wait five days.
After the 20th, a week after.
We've been waiting five months.
Oh, no, we've hit them in March.
Not much.
Oh, no, that was a pretty good joke, but we haven't held up with bombing them.
There was this damn air force.
Yes, and last weekend those things were in the news.
But that was just three aircraft.
Any aircraft?
Well, we just have no illusions.
How can they go over here from the north?
We don't think anything.
They have something funny going on, though.
Letuan, who was four weeks in Moscow, now he's in Peking.
There's something, something is cooking.
No.
Now they, to them, what's going on, to them, this salt thing is going to be a joke.
Because no matter what the Russians tell them, they can't be sure what side deals are being made.
What kind of a deal do you plan to... Do you really think you want to pass that message to the Chinese or is that a...
It's gone.
Oh, next week, yes.
Does that appear to be a little too second-round?
No, it would be very cool to just say we want them to understand it's not... An announcement, an announcement was made this week.
I put it specifically on arms control.
It's not directly against that.
Well, I'll put it... We have to be careful that they don't publish it, so we'll put it in a general...
They'll understand it.
There's no agreement.
I'll give it to you, of course, for your editing and approval, to say that any understandings with any other country are never directed against them, and we'll be prepared when our communication... Now, what about Bernie?
I should see him tonight.
He's back.
He's written... Yeah, probably.
He's given a long report.
What's it added to?
Well, it adds up to the fact that they might be willing to go along with the two-China solution if they can preserve the Security Council seat.
Now... We can't guarantee that.
As a matter of fact, that state held out on us.
And I'm not over it with... Well, you feel over it, but... No, there's no way we can...
In fact, if we go to the two-China solution, they are certain to lose the Security Council seat.
Everyone agrees on that.
Yeah, so...
Well, what I'm beginning to wonder is it, Mr. President, whether the two-China solution, whether we might be better off being defeated.
So why?
Because two-China, we offer two-China.
Peking will be furious anyway.
Taiwan won't like it.
And I don't know whether we are better off being rolled on that and getting it over with.
Yeah, but they're getting a role in the 100-square-inch initiative, not as American people.
That's the one problem.
Well, you've done nothing then.
On the other hand, how can the United States, and as I put it to somebody yesterday, how, in attempting to, shall we say, make new friends, do you do that by breaking treaties with old friends?
You cannot do that.
You can't deliver 15 billion times on these.
To the goddamn comments.
They haven't asked for that, actually.
They've only asked us to get it.
They want to get rid of our security treaty, right?
At one note, they've asked us to get rid of our forces.
How many forces do we have there?
Not so many, about 6,000.
They want to get rid of our forces.
We've got to make a decision on the China issue within the next two or three weeks.
I don't know if the two-China thing is any good.
I'm...
I think it's the worst of both worlds.
That's what worries me, Mr. President, that you may wind up... What does the old man want then?
Want us to just stand firm?
Well, the old man, he probably would be just as happy if we stood firm.
Then we'll lose.
And then?
Well, then it's over.
You'll get kicked out of the two-China thing also.
I understand.
What will happen on the two-China thing is that it will go through...
The Communists may not come in in the assembly, but any time they then claim their Security Council seat, it's a procedural issue.
And we can't do it.
With regard to this thing here, I think we've got to get the Rogers thing in place.
We've got to do something.
I can't really call him down Tuesday at the same time you're calling Smith down and confirming whack.
I think we've got to get it.
I can wait with Smith till Wednesday.
I think we've got to leave.
Well, I'm worried about leaks with Smith and I'm worried about Russia not leaking it.
but creating such an atmosphere about it that they'll all poor mouth it.
When it is... Smith won't be able to, that's why I'd like to have it, the Smith thing, close in time, to the Rogers thing.
But we can see Smith in the afternoon...
Why couldn't you call Rogers over the weekend or on Monday and say, you got something you want to talk about on Tuesday?
You can't.
I can say I was done at all, and I've got it, and I have it.
You're bringing this problem up, right?
And it isn't today, it isn't 100% right.
I've got to get those words that make it clear for precisely that reason that it is something, that it is something.
Well, the view that I have is the view of this.
However, that is coming true in price.
in the post of this $400 million.
It looks like an expansion of welfare, Bob.
More money for the bumps on welfare.
That is not the way it is to be.
I want Ziegler to jump hard on the fact that this is a great improvement.
This marks a substantial improvement because it has the reform.
Yeah?
That's why, that's why I didn't want to take the suggestion, and I don't know whoever made it, this idea of bringing in John Gardner and the head of the CIO and so forth.
By the Christ, would we bring that in?
What would be the purpose?
See, that emphasizes the family assistance side of it.
It's a wrong thing.
We don't want to emphasize that.
Let those men, let the miners vote.
Order against it as they want.
But all we got then, we're going to be on the side.
75% of the people are against giving more money to people on the level, or anyone on the level.
You know?
Really.
And that's why I don't want to emphasize that side of it.
Could you get them across?
Yes, the archivist.
Yeah.
Do they understand it or do they think we ought to emphasize the other reason?
Is that the argument?
They got elbow charging around.
Let Moynihan talk about the other one.
He might have, but I'm not going to.
The argument later on, the thing for that meeting was just that it was an organ thing.
It was purely an operational deal.
that we've got them backing us on, sure, H.R.
1, and they've been crazy about us.
But you see my point?
Yeah, the message that will come to you loud and clear is that Nixon supports giving more welfare to black bastards.
Now, that's really what it, in the public mind, it means.
And we just aren't going to do it.
That's what we're doing.
But the emphasis should be, I support welfare reform, work requirement, work requirement.
This is an enormous improvement because the strength of this work requirement, we're in service.
And get it.
and get a line that is developed so that they were inclined and they knew that all the people would have to talk and hit that very hard.
Steve about that says, Steve is fine.
Everybody happy about that?
They're against people.
Am I?
Yes, sir.
It was good for them the way my share was.
And then Jerry had been playing on the paper.
You know, it was his paper, his pictures on the paper.
Four pieces.
He'll become the leader of that house.
He won't be Albertan before.
That's what fits right in with this other comment I talked with him about.
And he, I think, you know, Jerry saw that, just what you were saying, Pat, and not show the fact, too, that there couldn't be more plays than Joe Kravitz attacking Conlon.
He's doing exactly what I told him to do in the reintroduction.
Exactly.
And he's right.
And the reason they're going after everybody in this town wants a strong hand, and they are petrified.
It's a democratic, they're afraid of it, so they're moving on.
A democratic left is petrified at the thought of this strong, vigorous man in there on the economic side.
What about the numbers?
Things have not still come up right here.
They will pay up today.
They're not going to do it today.
Only Congress is putting it up today.
Yeah.
And they're going to, uh, who's going to agree on it?
McCracken?
Michael Stein?
Good.
Good.
Stein's going to do it.
Stein's going to do it.
And Sapphire worked up a plan that looks pretty good.
Sapphire will go around and get a news magazine.
Yes.
That's the plan.
We'll lose that.
Plus, get the U.S. news before they go to press tonight.
Calling them this morning on the whole space on it.
It's only an important thing for the sophisticates, but, you know, that's why U.S. News is important, that it reaches the kind of people that this, but nevertheless, Bob, everybody was staring around about this thing, and it's really, truly, our never-ending threats are going to have a problem with the economy as Turkey is coming back.
The question is how fast.
That's all there is.
It must be too damn fast.
But, uh, the stuffer's got to do a different thing, which is that the people are cleaning out the stores, the store shelves, because the others being the inventory.
Hell of a lot of these things are in the stores.
Bob, on the board, I'm going to take Roger Johnson down.
We don't have to tell anybody about it.
I'll decide about it about tomorrow at 10 o'clock.
I'll go.
I'll check the weather.
Is it?
There's no problem.
I just, I called you.
He knows.
He's on top of it.
He's one of them.
Manolo's down there testifying, you know, on that.
In a case, you know, he's in Florida.
Uh, well, since that's two of us, we used our word for it.
We sued each other for divorce, and he said, fine.
See if somebody can reach him down there, tell him to stay.
Okay.
And he can go right over to the house and be there when we got there.
But also, be sure to pay.
That's why you need one as small as me, you know, to go in and get the house ready.
And the plane is always ready.
So yeah, go right ahead.