Conversation 503-017

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I wanted to tell you before we started that I'm very grateful for your help.

Come on out there and see me, old gentleman.

Give me your, give me what you really, really feel I have on this tape.

What you do, what you ought to do.

What you must do.

And to be frank, is he, is the old man, is the old man really, really totally unrealistic and rigid?

What have I ever heard from other sources?

And I guess this is the, this is, I don't know whether this is,

the United States will only stick by him in terms of their single security council.

That won't happen.

I mean, we did look at Roe.

Is he aware, but I have to be wondering what your sense is, is he really aware of the realities in the UN as to how tough it is?

that it's almost inevitable that we're going to lose.

He is.

He thinks that we, that we have old friends, that we really actually have...

I know it's not my hand to say, but I'm a... We're a friend.

You aren't going to let down a friend.

We are.

I am his friend.

I'm all that I am.

But does he realize it?

My God, the Canadians, well, none of the Canadians have gone.

The British, all the rest are deserted.

Well, he was told that.

You told him.

Yeah, I told him.

And, of course, Chavo and Jimmy Shinn, who's the new ambassador, they told me that the Glendon Bridge had the impact.

It looked like maybe it was Batman when I was fishing.

He was 84.

This guy's 85.

And they're both just... You know, the line sort of closes in.

Yeah.

Do you have the same feeling?

Yes.

He said, well, of course.

I don't know how to describe it psychologically that comes it over and you don't know.

What I think we foreigners don't fully sense is that he's a young man and all that, and this is the right way of competition and so on.

And as far as he's concerned, this is the issue.

He's determined, a little bit like Jean Monnet was determined to outlive Duval.

He's determined that he's a human, in other words, he's a contender on a black

I think I mentioned in that thing that I spent the Sunday evening with George Yeag, who was part of this.

George is reasonable.

They are even not true.

No, he can't leave the Alabama.

See, she tried to run this embassy when he was ambassador.

He fought her.

And he's a member without a portfolio account.

He can't leave the Alabama.

George, as a matter of fact, in 1967 was telling me, he said that

He was a roommate in middle school and high school in China with Joe Amai, for example.

So all these connections and personal relationships, what a little impression for us was that

I spent an evening, and I had three talks with John Sheets.

Yeah.

What's that like?

His issue, his vulnerability is he has diabetes, and he's got to be extremely careful as a young man.

He's playful and frank, but he's quite, he's very much on the ball now, and I think understanding the Russians, you know, this old man.

So, Dr. What?

the the the the

You know, you and Bill Ball and I, we've got a connoisseur of everything.

Let me show you a land of paintings he's doing now.

He's an architect, too.

He designed this house.

And I'd like to see it again someday.

Well, he asked particularly to be remembered.

That's why I asked him.

He looks fine.

I think he's all right.

He had diabetes, didn't he?

Yes, he could.

If she would disappear from the picture.

So she's very angry at me.

the way things have gone, that we're sort of walking away from.

Some died up in the, well, he died, his sister went on to the funeral, and was very, very useful to do it anyway, but she's his sister, he's his dad's sister, and then the other sister would be his mother's sister.

I would have to go and get her if you were not to.

She said, well, what was the reason?

I had to go to the PR right here one time.

Oh, she could have left you there.

Yes, that's right.

Anyway, there's no reason.

the other brother's father.

Right.

And she, uh, Madame Chang, uh, we should probably stick with it.

She didn't go to the New York film.

A little bit of a dig at us, that uncertainty.

Say what?

A real, a real time.

A real time.

What in the hell?

I mean, the Chinese, I would expect this from some less sophisticated people.

But here's a terribly sophisticated people.

Can they not see the realities to God?

We fight.

I fought for them for years.

So you fought for them.

I stood by them.

We fight the Congress.

We get the votes and everything they want.

I'm all for it.

practical situation.

The old man, though, really believes, I think, no matter what you or I or anybody would say to him, if we really made the effort, he just can't imagine this power we have.

It wouldn't be easy.

We're fully used.

It wouldn't sweep away all this.

You know, I agree with you.

The other fellows don't.

They think we're too simple.

I want him to be sure.

I think has their confidence.

He's worked closely with the old man.

He was there every time I was there.

And he's a pilot.

Yes, he was.

But anyway, the foreign minister who was here is also missing.

What the devil is the party stand on the November 6th?

Well, they don't want that.

The problem we've got is that, you know, there's this scheme picking around, we should leave the universal, we should leave the two-china policy, we should change our position on the import question and so forth.

Well, as I understand it, taking the two-china policy, first, we know that it's gonna, it sure as hell isn't gonna satisfy the communist Chinese, and it sure as hell isn't gonna satisfy this policy, right?

You see what I mean?

There was all over that.

He said, well, President Mason, when he feels this must be done, go to the procedure that we discussed.

This would be to have a dual representation in the General Assembly and then have the Republic of China continue to manage the membership of the UN.

I would suggest that we

that we make a new estimate of what really is up-to-date, which, you know, I thought that occurred to me, which I haven't discussed with anybody, and it may be worthless.

Years ago, remember we started the Warsaw Talks, and I thought not a good place for those talks.

The last time they were set up, the Chinese cut them off because they would be susceptible to the virus.

Look how we haven't switched on them being a member of the United Nations.

They never said they were, but they are.

Maybe we'd get a rough answer, I don't know.

I think they'd say yes if you kick out the other one.

If you kick out the other one.

Well, this is the only condition I understand.

That's my guess.

My guess doesn't tell me how they possibly do it.

They can't recognize the existence of Taiwan.

Everybody, I've talked to Europeans,

I don't believe that going through that gesture of the sparkler that we, you know,

The problem I see, Bob, with trying to get out, and let's put it this way, the problem I see with trying to get out and say, well, you know, those are the two giant faults.

to the Communist Chinese that it might be worth the price to, you know, sink our friends.

But if, on the other hand, we do it, with almost a certain knowledge that it's time to displease both, I see that as a lead-in.

That's right.

So I'm wondering if we aren't probably better off to say, well, we've reached

I don't think we're going to make any points for the Communist Chinese actually for proposing something.

All there is is dividing the way between your government and the American people's ideas.

Don't you see?

That's so clear.

That's what they're after.

Old ping pong ideas.

Sure.

But, uh, if you, if they take the initiative to irritate the Russians, that's the only way.

But I think on the UN thing, it seems to me that the difficulty with the present state formula, as I understand it, is that it's a cute way of saying, well, we're out in front advocating what everybody else is for.

What the hell is that?

Because it's all we've done is to say, well, we don't stand by our friends.

And our enemies don't like that either.

So what do we gain?

I always like to get into fights where I recognize that I can lose something.

You've got to gain something.

I'm not sure.

You gain no credit for peaking at all for making concessions.

None.

In the old days, you remember when we tried to win the Russians and all we got was a fan.

decided we were so weak that we got no credit for anything in the context of the whole thing.

I believe that Peking wouldn't care less whether a member of the UN or not, to have any humanitarian situation where the British and the French and others would decide that whoever does move in the other direction, assuming they do, do what it does good.

I suppose that says the United States loses leadership in the world.

Because of this, I think a hell of a lot of people couldn't care less about the United Nations.

It's an ineffective civilization.

As long as this division exists at all, it must be.

I think the more sophisticated unfriendly would see some advantage in our moving up.

Because they recognize that this would be an irritant.

The rich, smart guys that are not funded.

There's only one way to do this.

It's either up or down, in my opinion.

It's got to be one or the other.

Both can have seats in the U.N.

I don't think so.

It is not going to work.

Now, one of those circumstances is going to be, you know,

don't feel we're going to gain anything.

I said, I don't see us gaining anything.

I'm sure you'll gain anything, but the only question otherwise is whether you gain something in the world leadership and all that.

And the point is that I just don't think I'm giving that to all the United Nations that are, at least in Christ's name, we're here.

But that's one of the reasons, sir.

I know.

We don't gain anything.

That's a good question.

I think BK would have more respect for us than he should.

And then continue our initiative with BK in the matters of review.

They have trade in Black Capital.

All right, fine.

They'll open up some items.

That's really, that's the cash that's around.

The coin that's around.

Those are the things.

Maybe you have a little other, a few other things.

But the idea that we're going to do

We're going to do some parliamentary maneuvering here.

I think everybody sees through it.

They see what the state people propose about, and they say, well, this is a very clever plan.

Well, if they can propose it and say it's a very clever plan, other people can analyze it and realize it's a clever plan.

They say, what are you trying to do?

You've got to get us apart.

These Chinese, they're not saying no illusions about this.

No, no, they're not saying no illusions about this.

I remember the tradition that told us I'm going out for over 10 years and it would seem biological that this would be a time for me.

I think it would cost more.

More than possible.

It would cost everything.

I don't think it would cost anything.

The one other thing about the Japanese, I just started talking to your friend Kishi.

Yes, and he's very strong on supporting the Taipei.

Much stronger than I expected.

not to run away and give any misapprehensions to the king about our loyalties and so on.

But inevitably, China's don't have this seat on the security council.

Inevitably, but that doesn't mean tomorrow.

He knows that.

But don't run away from our friends.

Don't run away from our friends.

That's the essence of what he told me.

Sometimes in the coming weeks and things, I always say that.

But he was much stronger for it.

He always, you know, he's part of the page, and I comment to him, he goes to Korea.

They are our friends.

They really are.

So he has also no illusions about the UN future.

who said yes, that would be a bigger topic of the little democratic parties.

And perhaps, in Peking, every now and then we might use a Japanese business man or something.

I'm trying to get a little word over informally to the track of another channel.

Oh, I would say, pretty nearly 50% of, uh, our lives are in the present.

Oh, in the present, though?

Yes, sir.

So, I think you trust my English, don't you?

Honestly, I always do.

Because it doesn't end in that place.

Yeah, I've always remembered him coming to Pakistan.

And he was back here years ago, that's right.

Just an example of what happened five days ago.

15 acres of land to build a plant.

Well, I went out and spent a couple hours with a farmer who owns the land.

Well, he got this land at the Land Reforms back in 1947, 48, which American corporations

quite a bit of money, so he's very prosperous.

But he's in Taiwanese, although his attitude, you know, the Chinese and the Japanese, just an ordinary rice farmer.

These are rice paddies, that's where we're putting this plant.

But just a little index of the attitude.

Six stories about Chinese oppression, Japanese brutality, and fun.

Far from the middle of a fair and poor, the film is drawn into the story of the six brothers.

You've got to have a couple of heads every day.

Oh, no.

That's the, uh... That's the dryer?

Oh, that's right.