Nixon, Bruce & Kissinger on Vietnam negotiations and Resignation

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Well, hi, how are you?

Well, glad to see you.

Glad to have you back.

God, sit down here.

Sit down.

Let me ask you a small thing.

How many days are you going to be here?

I don't know.

Now, I had another grand shot here with Sylvia.

What I'm saying is that it's a small thing, and I, and you may not have time for it, but I'm, uh, I'm getting a, a, a lunch for Spice on Thursday.

If you would come, I'd love to have you.

I'd love to have you.

Good.

That's right.

On Thursday, tomorrow, could you come?

Yeah, yeah.

It's only, it's only small, 30 to 40 people, and I'd love to have you.

See you on Thursday.

You still want your old friends?

Yeah, I want them to see you.

He's a very nice man.

Yeah.

Okay, that's what's going on.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Well, we're going to have a beer.

I'm just going to ask us to do a few questions.

The whole area doesn't need to be parked, does it?

Well, we won't have to park.

Well, if you had a chance to have a chat at all with her, we'd talk about it.

That's good.

So let me say it first.

I got with the small group the other day.

I said to them, who has the proper jobs, I say to Bruce, hear the same speech after May, week after week after week.

That's true.

And I say that we just don't worry about it.

as the appearance of things is concerned.

Yes, that's right.

The message around here is coming out that this is a copyrighted idea, this one, that one, the other one, and thereby we so procedure

It was very much like, if you could do it, I'm almost there, I guess.

I think Apple people did it extremely well with whatever you, but I would like that you could put it on the basis of coming home early before, and it's over quite a while.

I wanted to talk to them this morning, whether it might be possible to do this.

Mike, my resignation will not be postponed until the, uh, through the last... How did that...

I think that, I don't know, I think that it would be much better, Mr. President, because of that people who... Do you want to drink your coffee?

No.

I mean, I want coffee.

I don't think so but I'm basically

So if we could do whatever David does as a seeming reaction to that, because we don't know if that was true, so then if David... Yeah, we don't know whether that kind of picture got made.

That's right.

If David then resigned, we can present it to him.

We can present it basically as a repass, saying, well, we're going to call.

See, I would like to have whatever we do with regard to your appointment being a result.

of the negotiating process, rather than simply, well, he's been there a long time, and sort of given up, you know what I mean?

These bastards have put us on this torch here so long, and I'd like to make an asset of it.

And an asset in one of two ways, either through some accomplishment that you could have, or, lacking that,

I'm curious, I'm going to sit back and take these insults.

Brother Brad and I used to talk about this, but our path to live healthy and green is not always from your standpoint, because I don't feel that our path is, unfortunately, in the back, you know, of how we live.

And the lives of our people, this is the function that should be taken up.

It's not to say this is for lack of fresh air, it's not to tell me go on.

The rest of the world happens to be a place

Get away from desk work, stop swimming, get in the sun.

I can't do that now.

I can't do it.

No, I can't.

I'm out of here now.

No, I don't think so.

Well, I think if he can bother to do it, he would.

Well, are you sure?

Because as far as I'm concerned, I won't think versus staying there another month, is it worth that?

No, no, it isn't because it's not imminent.

Listen, we've had a bunch of suspects, some of them.

He does not believe, you know, that your stage is going to have that.

No, he said that he feels this time that he's going to have it.

But he said if there was a way, if there was a way he could do it,

Yeah, all right then.

I was talking to a friend of mine.

Oh, yeah.

And he said, what's the trouble, legs?

I said, yes, I don't know.

He said, I told you about that.

When I was 73, the older age, he said, I found that I could not walk anymore.

How old is he?

He's 83.

Wow.

So he said, I've never spent a night since then, except in the country.

That's why he said, that's it.

He said, I was going to die.

I was going to die.

You know, he said, I have injections, and I live with this, and all that.

I recommend you go.

And three years later, I reviewed my wheeling climb as home falls.

And he said, it's purely a matter of this.

I don't know what he said, but he said, Mark, you look better.

You look better.

He was an extraordinary creature.

And he did this kind of marketing to the British.

He did it.

You see, it's easy to do so much.

You just have to see it happen.

Yeah, that's what I would say.

It's tough for the British.

That's very bad all the time.

That's satisfactory.

I would have thought it would be the best thing to do.

I could definitely count on you to do all that.

No problem.

So I said, well, I'll tell Judith and whatnot.

But you say your parents feel free to leave.

Yes.

Why don't you feel free to go with Judith?

You want her to get the hell out of there and go to the, there must be some places to go to.

No.

There's not a place to go to.

I don't like the idea of destroying the continuity of this company.

Would you have any objection if I, well, you have friends following you as a person, but you should have a...

A place you can go to very easily if you have a place you can go to in Mediterranean.

Yes.

You've got all kinds.

Well, I'll raise the question.

I was debating one great place very long ago.

No, I don't think they should shoot him.

The only problem, I think, is that he'll probably invite you, and then you'll have to talk to him.

Well, I'm not passing trouble with Billy for a week here.

I've talked with the father, and when you sold him to Connecticut, the whole boy kind of had a... Oh?

The house was sold, but it was pretty cool somewhere, and then he said he'd have a ghost, too.

I mean, you've got to have had that all along.

That's fine.

Well, you do.

You do what the doctor tells you to do.

And I have a feeling, David, I don't know why, but it's not as interesting or polyamorous about what may happen to you on the other hand.

We now reach the time when the negotiating track is around coming to an end.

There's no, you know, I mean, it is except for prisoners who are not more negotiating about it.

And that will come very soon.

Now, at that time, they got to decide.

They want to negotiate or they just want to see it through the other way.

So any chance we've got is, it seems to me, at least next couple of months.

That's really my belief.

And if that chance evaporates,

And I thought we're going to do, to make, and the point is to, I would like this, if I could suggest one thing that I think would be helpful.

Now, once that happens,

There's a problem.

That's all this West person is talking about.

They turned on him.

They started negotiating his concerns.

There.

What the hell?

What incentive have they got to negotiate something?

And all that score.

How is that to be handled?

You leave about a second or third of the whole person.

Harris, why are you up there?

I'd like to have a feeling that maybe I'd like to have this as David would agree.

And it would require not to come here for it except a telephone call or coming in maybe on occasion.

Where would you return if you come here?

Well, I thought I'd come home about the 1st of September with my family in Virginia, and shit like that.

This notion, if I may outright share it, I'm literally buried, especially under the Prisoner of War, while I was in college.

I didn't see this every night.

I was alive without it.

Now there's an awful lot of hopeful feeling, which is natural temptation for the United States government to have this here.

You could change the forum, that's what I mean.

We, uh, they have to have some hope.

But, uh, what I'm thinking of is changing the forum on that of some sort.

And I'm thinking, but what I'm more thinking of, too, is as far as you're concerned, if you could continue to, uh,

Oh, if you will, the consultant, the president on the, I think in other words, when I say the negotiating track runs out, there's always a chance to be out.

But I think it's very important with your experience, from what you've been through and the rest, that you, that we have the opportunity to, you know, talk over things as we come along.

And that would not be a problem for you, would it?

No, I was going to consult with the State Department.

Yes, I was going to consult with them.

I don't know.

We would want this to be there.

Particularly in Virginia.

This is not...

I would, uh, I think that was, I'm pretty quiet and I feel this.

I, uh, I have a feeling that they, you know, your opponent in person was welcomed by everybody here in senior.

You really helped us from our standpoint, too, to get your judgment.

We have a close call today.

That's what I'm talking about.

Well, I think this is sort of the only good thing.

I do think if somebody responds to help to resign, they have a huge responsibility, and I think it's better.

I think that's the reason I'd like to see a release from a general standpoint.

And I have a feeling that that is what we're going to have to do.

I'm here to handle this thing, yes.

I don't feel at all that we should...

moderated the stance that you were taking, the position that you were taking.

And I know the pressures you've been under.

That's why I appreciated the fact that you, I know the tremendous pressure you must have to say, well, don't you believe the wrong here and there.

You know, some of these people are very foolish, if I may say so.

It's almost incredible how naive they are.

I was something of the opposite.

But do you think we're doing the right thing?

Yes, I do.

I do.

Yes, I do.

We want it straighter.

And if you don't, then God, you know, I'll change it.

And if I have any good reason.

Oh, I do.

The easiest thing to do is to change.

Everybody wants to change.

The easiest thing was to change.

Exactly.

Yeah, just drop it on the side.

Because if you believe this, this gives me some heart, too.

Well, the other thing is that I think that maybe you can tell me.

I'll tell you, Mr. Reed.

It could very easily do, and probably ought to do, if it's in connection with an overall subtle ceasefire in San Pedro.

Yeah, I believe David was trying to figure it out.

Well, it's an absolute theory.

But November 15th, though, as a date for another in the absence of anything to do with Christmas and Mr. Olden's Christmas, they promised to discuss the question of Christmas.

Yeah.

I didn't understand it.

I was stuck.

And I was inspired.

Nothing to guarantee the safety of our people.

Absolutely nothing.

And in the long run, I said, well, Carol, many of these people, I was so convinced of them.

of that superiority, military superiority.

You're really ready to make your last stay, instead of giving in.

Well, let's say you want to work it out, you do it that way.

Aaron speaks of David only with great sorrow.

Oh, yeah.

Isn't that nice?

I've got a message for you, Harold.

When are you leaving?

That's the only message that I have.

I've come to see him and I don't see him anymore.

He's, he's, uh, he doesn't want sex.

I don't see him looking for sex.

And he's not always, he's just talking to people like that.

He's not taking patients, not talking to people.

Also, we're a mile from the State Department, but he comes to do an excursion.

He's going to sit down and talk to you for hours about the temptation of what they thought style was up to 15 years ago.

I don't think I'll ever let go of you.

Ah!

Well, it would lead in this way, that I saw a certain amount of freedom in my character during June and July.

Right.

And my resignation would be effective in the face of July.

Good.

The 30th of July.

Right, right, right.

But then, sometimes, I'd want to be in touch with Henry, if I could be useful to myself, as you can hardly believe it.

I'd want to be in touch with Henry, if I could be useful to myself, as you can hardly believe it.

Well, let me tell you, and we will tell you, we have a very, very long discussion about this.

And we have time.

We're really gone here.

Actually, then, if you realize this, there's a big pop in the system.

There are other things.

Much more of the trade and travel and so forth.

But on the channel.

Everybody wants to go.

They've got every presidential candidate.

I understand that.

Of course, all the members of the cabinet want to go.

Sam wants to go on.

Bill's going to go.

And so on.

You know, it's really something.

Kennedy wants to go.

I hadn't had a chance to tell you yet.

One of my other colleagues, who is an advisor to Muskie, I think, and I think every one of the candidates was having one of those talks with the president about a trip with the presidential candidates.

And he just called me and they said to him, why should we blame it on President Nixon, who's done more for us than any of these people put together.

He said they won't do anything about it.

But I had what we had in mind to talk to you about, but this would fit very well into our plans.

It would fit very well into our plans, particularly after he's out of position.

He could, if he was hanging from there, it would be a very sensitive issue for him, but if after two or three months, out of the position, in the event.

But in this case, I wouldn't, our idea is that it would not, my idea would not be in the event that things come together, would not be a trip or

something that you could do with every one person.

But my idea with this story is that, look, let me tell you this.

The Chinese, we did the running just now.

The Chinese have forgotten about the Russians.

You know the Russians.

You know the Chinese.

They're clever people.

They're clever in Asia.

They're clever in San Francisco.

They are in themselves.

Now, the first time, the first time we ever contacted them, I mean, it's a curious thing.

I had a talk with them a day ago.

We ran over the names.

I won't mention the others because I would not have great respect for all of them.

One man also that I think could go over there and do it was Bruce.

And then the problem would be if it were to occur now, it would be something that would be too difficult for them to swallow because of the something else.

On the other hand, three months from now, four months from now, as that boils down to see the end of that,

This could be extremely effective.

You see, most people that go there believe it or not, he's so damn naive.

I mean, they could take those Chinese right off the fingers, right?

And also, I'm not going to have any contact with the Chinese by people that don't know.

If not, we're still far from that.

But it's in the cards.

You consider it important.

I think what we want to do is put it in terms of bringing a child into a closer relationship with the West is the most essential.

And they've obviously struggled to do that.

Of course, I have a life of saving children in Asia.

I can't question that.

That's a pretty good question.

I've talked to the thousands of Chinese.

I've talked to them.

They do have a mutual understanding of the sea.

And he said, he had to deal with the Chinese.

He said, the matter is, that when you knock at one door, they open another.

You can't speak to them.

They never open the door, which is right.

You have to open the door, but if they can't open the door, they don't.

That's the thing with the damn Japanese.

I have great admiration.

Oh, here they go.

They're always sitting there smiling and nodding and saying, no, no, no, or wait, wait, wait.

Well, they don't have near the sophistication of some of the Chinese.

I'm sure they're not there.

If they had had some of the...

They have much more drive, fanaticism, et cetera, than the Chinese.

The Chinese basically are not a fanatic people.

They are not a, they're not a people who are terribly driven.

They are people that have some, they don't have the Japanese having inferiority

attitude.

The Japanese attitude basically is the one of superiority.

Mind you, I think that's rather complex.

But the Chinese, you can't describe it as superiority or inferiority as far as they're concerned.

No.

China is the hard work.

They certainly believe in it.

I think that's much of their problem with the Russians.

They look down.

They're nuts.

The rest, I'm sure.

But you think so, though, isn't it?

Yeah.

They just consider themselves to be a hell of a lot more civilized, as they are, than the Japanese.

And, of course, getting a lot more civilized than the Russians, who were just out of barbarism in their terms, at least.

Well, that is the way they look down on the Indians, because the Indians are a slovenly lot.

That's one country I hope you want to go to.

I don't know if I would go there again.

I know.

I'm reconciled with the oil, but I don't want to see it.

You know, the Chinese have been still very nice to me, particularly in Great Britain.

We have a couple of them on strike.

Could be just, oh, that thing, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that.

Nixon, Bruce & Kissinger on Vietnam negotiations and Resignation

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on May 26, 1971

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