Nixon White House Tapes — Conversation 512-025
Date: Friday, June 4, 1971 at 3:14 PM
Participants: Nixon, Richard M. (President); Bull, Stephen B.; Rockefeller, Nelson A.; Kissinger, Henry A.; Chapin, Dwight L.; Ziegler, Ronald L.
Recording device: Oval Office
Source: https://www.easynixon.org/tapes/512-025

This transcript was generated automatically by AI (WhisperX) and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite it as authoritative.

[0:06] I was going to talk to Nelson about a federal one.
[0:30] I don't think he's going to do any good.
[0:31] I don't think he's going to do any good.
[0:31] I don't think he's going to do any good.
[0:34] I read that, I really read the paper this morning.
[0:47] This is just the start.
[0:47] I want to tell you that one of the very first weird, let's see, we can't do an evidence about that.
[0:55] It's your little problem.
[1:22] It's your whole thing that's been in the papers two or three days and I've written it.
[1:24] I've written it.
[1:24] I've written it.
[1:27] who's great, you know, he's 39 years old, he's Jewish, he's tough, but understood the minority politics, you know.
[1:49] And so where do we go out?
[1:50] But the other thing is that in terms of, in terms of this fellow, I guess the reason I worry about it this way is this fellow, right about the waist, he's just pathological.
[1:54] I said, now, I said, now, Kendrick, let's come back to this.
[1:56] He said, no, he said, Nelson's too kind to go.
[2:05] He said, I told him, just too kind to go.
[2:06] I said, well, what is the matter?
[2:07] He said, let's see.
[2:07] I told him this morning, Nelson, and he told me, I just talked to him, and he said, well, he said, he thought you were practically done elaborating.
[2:13] He said,
[2:13] Lindsay's lost all his good people.
[2:26] Lindsay can't keep anybody.
[2:27] The city's a mess.
[2:27] He raised the problem of the Seabury Foundation that you mentioned to me.
[2:29] Anybody do that job?
[2:30] Well, we just hang on to it.
[2:30] I don't think his problem is corruption as much as inefficiency.
[2:32] It's just incompetence.
[2:33] So, if I go see- How about a capital one?
[2:48] We're talking about the Hoover Commission.
[2:49] Go with capital.
[2:50] Capitalism, eh?
[2:50] Yeah, go with capital, but call it- You think of it as a Hoover-type commission.
[2:52] Exactly.
[2:52] Rather than secret.
[2:52] Exactly.
[2:52] You're right, that's the wrong connotation.
[2:53] But the Hoover Commission is terrific.
[2:54] I mean, the capital is the ideal man.
[2:55] Beautiful.
[2:55] I think he would, because he loved it.
[3:16] He loved the city.
[3:16] You know, he grew up, he lived and worked there.
[3:17] The main thing is he was programed.
[3:18] He just, you know, he wanted to come back there.
[3:20] And then he came out and said, No.
[3:21] I know what you mean.
[3:21] The other thing is that we were, we were, we were wanting some other ways to,
[3:25] But the indications don't, as far as the numbers are concerned, that is not the case.
[3:46] It's because the city has cut what it is doing.
[3:49] We are putting more
[3:50] we are going to try to find a way to see who can have to do it through your office too to see that you can it's the highest priority possible the other thing i was going to say when i recover briefly in rochester we will not have payments we should after all these reasons i got you and second therefore it will have to be a media briefing on domestic policy for the
[4:14] I'll do a little foreign policy too, myself and all, but everything else will be domestic for the North-East.
[4:38] And we do not want to announce that we're going to be there on the 18th.
[4:39] We don't want to announce it too much in advance due to the late time for demonstrators.
[4:41] But I want you to know that the 18th, if you would come, that would be fine.
[4:42] They're very good, actually.
[4:43] They're all top Indian people.
[4:44] They give them various domestic programs.
[4:45] You know that Paul Miller is there, and he's the president of the Associated Press, and has been at this.
[5:04] Yes, I heard.
[5:04] Very strong.
[5:04] Nice.
[5:04] He's a Colt P-18.
[5:05] We'll do it.
[5:05] Sunday the 18th.
[5:05] Sunday the 18th.
[5:06] No, that's the line.
[5:11] That's the line.
[5:12] That's the line.
[5:12] That's the line.
[5:14] Friday, June 18th.
[5:30] I'm thinking about the right day.
[5:31] Yes, it is, it is, it is.
[5:31] Yeah, that morning, I remember now, yeah, that morning, I was doing something, and I fly up there, here, yeah, I do something here, and then I fly to Rochester.
[5:36] That's right.
[5:36] It is game.
[5:36] Right, and then I go to, I think I'm going to Maine, and then I'm going to Iowa, and then I'm going to Mississippi.
[5:39] But, uh, tell me, how are you?
[5:41] How's everything going?
[5:42] How are you doing?
[5:42] Well, we're going to hope that it blows up the legislatures.
[5:45] It's been rough.
[6:05] We've turned our state around.
[6:06] We've cut $150,000.
[6:07] It's a difficult thing to turn around.
[6:08] But I think that if we don't go bankrupt, that's about 18%.
[6:09] And we've been involved with taxes.
[6:10] So for them, first of all, we're awesome.
[6:10] We have to watch our taxes.
[6:11] And Mr. President, we just kind of raised the money.
[6:12] We have the highest in sales tax, highest in income tax.
[6:14] I don't feel proud of any tax.
[6:34] I don't think we can spend the kind of money we spend.
[6:36] The Washington cannot finance the rates we're looking for.
[6:37] The nation won't.
[6:37] No way, not with the kind of insurance we put together.
[6:38] No.
[6:38] Ah, however, I think we have to bear in mind, and we should know in that common word, we have a very hard month next year.
[6:41] It would be, it would have been an idle gesture to suggest that we cancel it this year because of bills.
[6:44] have indicated that we don't tax this year.
[7:04] But next year, I think Nelson has got to move on tax reform.
[7:05] And I think we have got to move in a way that we can really prompt him to do so.
[7:07] In other words, I don't know what the best answer is, but we talked about it earlier.
[7:09] But there are many factors that excite him that he can't, but he will have.
[7:10] So we need an additional source of revenue
[7:11] a different source of revenue at the national level than it does in the U.S. states and cities.
[7:30] The issue we've got to be is looking at those people and say, well, here's property taxes from the U.S.
[7:32] Yes, I do.
[7:32] That's going to be very difficult to accomplish.
[7:33] Because those are local taxes.
[7:34] The local governments, whether it's a county or a town or a village or a city, just press them on.
[7:37] Yeah, yeah.
[7:37] Well, the point is, though, that if you provide them with the means, they'll have the option if they want to.
[7:39] Great.
[7:39] Well, we will.
[7:40] We can't tell if we have the first chance at property tax, but we provide.
[8:01] What it means is that your revenue share has to be on a much larger basis than property tax.
[8:03] I see.
[8:03] I see.
[8:03] So they will have the money.
[8:03] That's what that means.
[8:04] Exactly.
[8:04] That's what it means.
[8:05] Another area that I worry about is the disparity of income tax levels between states.
[8:07] We're just driving business out of New York.
[8:08] Yeah.
[8:08] We're not making that much money.
[8:10] And we're losing businesses.
[8:23] We say, oh, I'm moving to Florida.
[8:27] I'm moving to Texas.
[8:27] No.
[8:27] Well, this is back again.
[8:29] Now, we're up with ours is 14.
[8:29] The city is two.
[8:30] We'll give another one, one and a half.
[8:31] That'll make up to 60 and a half percent.
[8:33] And...
[8:34] Unless somebody in this country has a uniform income tax for all states, so that you don't get this artificial stimulation for business to lean.
[8:56] You can't have that kind of competition in the United States.
[8:58] It's just damn foolish.
[8:58] This is either one country or it's 50 countries and it's not changed.
[8:59] I don't know.
[9:00] It's now become so mixed anyway now.
[9:21] I mean, the blacks have come north, but not necessarily.
[9:22] The problem is more north than south.
[9:23] The industry's going south.
[9:24] That's right.
[9:24] Cotton's going out of business.
[9:25] I mean, the whole country is changing so rapidly.
[9:26] That's a weekend.
[9:26] What was I saying?
[9:26] Yeah, it's not dope.
[9:27] What you're going to have is, we go in here, you're listening to this, we're going to have a lot of things going on in foreign policy that we aren't talking about.
[9:31] Great.
[9:40] Just, uh, but, uh, we'll, uh, tell you what we can.
[9:53] But we, we, we...
[9:53] I saw, I saw that there was, uh, that was kept completely, uh, the...
[9:55] But there's some other things that just...
[9:55] I'll put it this way.
[9:56] The day is now June 4th.
[9:56] I don't want you to... And I think you can't be sure of all my English things, but some of them come flying, if you're always sure.
[10:00] It's about the history of everything I've shown before.
[10:21] I said there were some things going on.
[10:22] And you came in and I had some good time.
[10:23] Listen, I don't want to take it out on you.
[10:24] I don't want these people to want to fight all the time.
[10:25] As long as you're there and doing the job, we're out of here.
[10:26] We're out of here.
[10:26] We're out of here.
[10:27] We're out of here.
[10:27] We're out of here.
[10:27] We're out of here.
[10:28] We're out of here.
[10:28] We're out of here.
[10:29] You know very well, by this time, by this time actually, as a matter of fact, there's an issue with Nelson and O'Fielder, an issue, because that's what you made me find.
[10:52] I'm sorry to bother you, but this is, but be that as it may, but in the Sino-Soviet thing, there's some of these things, you know, they have involved with this one.
[10:56] I've just got to say, so I don't have anything.
[11:02] It's everything.
[11:04] And don't worry about me for it.
[11:05] I'm not worried about it.
[11:05] Isabel, did you say there was, say, the rest of the time you wanted to get your job, did you want to get your idea?
[11:15] I said we were discussing a federal state problem.
[11:16] That's true.
[11:16] That's true.
[11:17] And, uh, Reverend Sheridan stood by the Chancellor.
[11:38] Ah, well, don't, don't, don't testify.
[11:38] You know, Mills was the candidate.
[11:39] Uh, Colonel Heath, his... And from the inside, too, somebody's on the committee.
[11:41] All right, sure, on the committee.
[11:41] Russell Wong sat inside.
[11:42] Mills was, uh, is being, um, stubborn.
[11:43] And, uh, and, of course, he was, uh, also a man with a reason for it.
[11:44] This day, Reverend Sheridan's gonna come.
[11:45] It's got to come.
[11:54] It's got to come.
[11:55] I think you're perhaps right on time.
[11:55] We're ready for a picture now.
[11:56] We're saving both of us.
[11:56] I'm going to hit the tent.
[11:59] Did you notice that a New York delegation of Democrats, Gene Carey, who's a member of Ways and Means, has come out with his own $10 billion revenue-sharing program?
[12:17] So I hope Bill is getting from the inside, from his own mouth.
[12:18] Did you notice?
[12:19] No question.
[12:19] There are 78 Democrats who have introduced some kind of revenue-sharing bill.
[12:24] Well, that was to the number of Republicans that we had.
[12:26] to give us the vote.
[12:37] If it ever comes to the fore, we'll vote for it.
[12:44] Now, Mills can never justify keeping the measure from the board.
[12:45] I mean, on an evening, they're ready to take the vote.
[12:47] We'll try.
[12:47] But, you know, that can be a very damn unpopular thing to do.
[12:48] So I don't care.
[12:48] Are you going to come out on the panel?
[12:49] Yeah, I am.
[12:49] He does not allow individual governors to come along.
[12:51] Well, how do you do it?
[12:51] Well, we've got a committee of governors representing the Governors' Conference.
[12:53] And I'm on a panel.
[12:55] of four, I think it is, four governors, maybe six.
[13:15] They're representing the country, and we sleep in the government.
[13:16] But that's all I need, just to get there.
[13:17] Are you going to be there?
[13:18] Yes, sir.
[13:18] I don't know if he's going to be there.
[13:19] South Carolina was the chairman of our committee.
[13:20] My parents will be there because he's the chairman of the government's conference.
[13:22] And he is a kind of convert that you may have got to go for.
[13:23] You know, say, well, then I'm going to go take over.
[13:24] Well, that would just be too early.
[13:25] a partisan Democrat.
[13:37] I think he's a very tough, strong man.
[13:41] He's on your side on this, and you're very confident.
[13:47] I have no hesitancy to speak out.
[13:49] Did you know that I had a little debtor in person also because Don Hughes, my fourth grade, he, along with several others who graduated from West Point 25 years ago,
[13:54] Her was in that class also.
[14:13] Was he here for dinner that night?
[14:14] He did not.
[14:14] He was not here.
[14:14] But Erwin, they said, was in that class.
[14:16] The chancellor of the university at this very question of Palsmark, whose wife is Marilyn Miller, the director of policy.
[14:19] He was there.
[14:19] He was the person in that class.
[14:20] It was a remarkable class.
[14:20] Graduated in 46, and that's pretty huge.
[14:21] Well, 25, the President General was 12, and the Army, 12, and the Air Force, and the Chancellor of the University.
[14:36] Oh, nice.
[14:36] I've had a good time here.
[14:37] I've heard a lot about this.
[14:38] Oh, great.
[14:38] Well, I knew Simon very well.
[14:52] He was a good man.
[14:52] I told him, I'm glad you are having him, because I, you know, when I put this on, some of our people in the state were screaming about the dictator saying, I just got that.
[14:56] I said, he's our friend.
[14:57] So he's coming.
[15:13] And it's a debt we're having with the President of the Republic.
[15:16] I want you to come to that, as I told you, to Brazil, Medellin.
[15:17] I don't know if you ever found them, but Dan is the biggest country in Latin America.
[15:19] And he said, well, it's a dictatorship.
[15:19] I just can't give it to him.
[15:20] He said, well, it's a country.
[15:21] But it's hard.
[15:21] They never objected.
[15:21] We have the Russians.
[15:22] Did they say anything about dictators?
[15:23] Or when we had Romania, they didn't think about that, did they?
[15:24] I don't know.
[15:26] And he made an excellent talk.
[15:48] I understand.
[16:10] That's high.
[16:10] That's low for them.
[16:11] I'll see them soon.
[16:14] What they bring is magic.
[16:28] They are magic.
[16:28] That's it.
[16:28] We're out of here.
[16:29] I don't know.
[16:29] Oh, it's going to be easy.
[16:30] It's going to be hard.
[17:26] .
[17:56] .
[17:56] .
[17:56] .
[17:56] .
[17:56] .
[17:56] .
[18:05] And he's not in the government.
[18:30] He's not discouraged about it.
[18:31] He's not discouraged about it.
[18:31] And Hugh Carey, who's our Congressman from New York City, Democrat, is on with it.
[18:33] He's supposed to go and do it.
[18:34] But he said, this year, there won't be recognition.
[18:35] So...
[18:36] So down the stairs, the other guy, he said, well, it's going to change.
[18:57] Bill's got to sit in that much discussion.
[18:58] He couldn't dare.
[18:59] He couldn't dare to kill him.
[18:59] You're optimistic about his passage.
[19:00] But just by the voice of the mass and the presidency of the ship, this is bubbling up behind them.
[19:02] There's no other way that they can do it.
[19:03] I think you could put it summarized this way.
[19:04] Basically, if you want to look at the battle down there...
[19:05] We don't want to announce that yet.
[19:31] We don't want to give demonstrators a chance to load up.
[19:34] Well, you can go into the other gallery and see.
[19:48] Aren't there a reason?
[19:50] Musky's been in hearings.
[19:50] I think of putting a little pressure on him.
[19:52] Yeah.
[19:52] I didn't go to Musky.
[19:52] You want to be open for him.
[19:53] I thought, well, Mills is the most important.
[19:54] I'm not very impressed.
[19:54] Mills is very sensitive.
[19:55] Well, I'll start with him.
[19:59] I won't.