Conversation 514-007

Transcript (AI-Generated)

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Yeah.

Do you take care of certificates, et cetera, for all those things?

I'm going to be sure that all those groups, I don't call them, it's pretty busy.

You know, like Tulsa Choirs, there were about 18 bands there and so forth.

Do they help?

Good, good.

And all those will be covered on the Tulsa visit and on the West Point visit and the rest.

Good.

That's routine, but it'll be very, very good.

Look out.

Good enough.

Thank you.

All right.

Oh, yes.

Yes, he and Larry are invited to all of these matters for him.

And Rogers will come ordinarily if he's in town.

Now, we wouldn't let Irwin come.

You're right.

And so...

I guess, for all I know, I should have given you that chance to say...

They were...

Right.

Yeah, I got a sweater.

Right, they're catching him now.

It turns out that we have a permit to testify.

Curtis Parr, please.

If you've got any further on Rochester, is it all going according to plan?

Well, just an ordinary briefing, is it?

Just a briefing, not an email.

I just rocked on it very much.

Didn't want to have an interview.

Uh, so we're looking into the idea of setting, having a reception at, at, uh, all of our, all of our towns, if you'd be willing.

Yeah.

Well, I'm sure he's willing, but at that point, he was, we, yeah, he was, used that movie to sell for a little time.

If Paul could have, uh, if he could have a few, it ought to be handled at a fairly high level harder with him, so that he knows that, uh, that I want him.

He had to look at it, so, uh, that's it.

That's what I said in 1954.

In fact, you just ought to call him on the phone and just say that, because at the end, I just wanted to have a few buddy-buddy friends, you know, with me, 15 or 20, where I could sit around and talk to him.

I have told Bob, the State Department and so forth, that there is no such thing

Yeah.

I just wanted to congratulate you on that funny picture of you.

You look strong, vigorous, manly, and I thought, boy, you wouldn't want to have me.

I bet you've got a lot of good comments on it, haven't you?

Yeah?

Good.

Well, of course, it was sad.

My point is you had to do his own thing to do with me.

When somebody is a little bit nuts, that's what they are.

They were exhibitionists, basically.

When they come shouting at you, I've got all you can do is throw it off and you can handle it with dignity.

And you've spent this day at it.

Never, never, never worry about it.

Many times you know you're better known by your academies and your friends.

Don't get me.

Yes.

Bye.

Poor guy.

Always worried about these things.

I guess White River's not here.

But anyway, what I think is, like in Rochester, all of these libraries, I don't know how many people have had these editors before, so I don't want any editors.

But I mean the business only.

I said, the Rochester elite, rather than the Rochester, he might have a few from around, you know, that's a pretty big area.

I think it was a useful meeting for the people that have a chance to sort of raise their hands.

It gives us a foundation that's very delicate.

We got it from Kevin and Elias.

Well, it's a thing.

It's embarrassing, man, because basically you don't have anything on the ship about you.

And it's really sorry.

It's sad.

They've all worked hard.

They've made trips.

They've made speeches.

And I don't know if all the rest of the time it comes through.

And they've said they don't want to have it with Kevin.

in Maine will probably know what it's called.

We have to work on these fellows to constantly be creative in their attempts to penetrate the public consciousness.

Vokey talks about going to Maine and tearing down a billboard.

I don't know, maybe that's our fault.

Can I suggest this, Bob?

If you give me, and I'd like to see it by the end of the day, or tomorrow, tomorrow, that's a better day, the three points you think cabinet officers ought to mention.

Remember I said that, I think one thing, for example, they all have to talk about something about the present.

They can talk about, first, the world leader, the leader deal.

Second, the dignity deal.

I think it's strong, so I think we've got to really push strong, right?

And that's the one that hasn't gotten through that should.

We've got all of them.

Yes.

Well, I understand.

I understand.

Well, that, of course, was the main one.

But I think the world leader's relation is strong.

Right?

And he thinks it's good for other reasons.

It's so easy to say, right?

You know, set out strength after strength.

Okay.

That's the common point.

That's the one that seems to me can't help but be believable, that has easily backed up points to prove it, and yet hasn't done so.

I want a different approach to the budget this time.

Basically, you're a politician.

You understand that.

He once said, this is the first time we've got a lot of politicians.

The great problem we have now is that we're not making a spending that's funny enough to make a spending politically.

And too many times I get somebody in here, a lot of times I've got to reduce the spending.

That's his job here.

to have added $200 million once you've gotten that.

Professors, I signed it.

I shouldn't have.

I shouldn't have signed it.

I should have said that we spent $200 million for interest rates or something like that.

You see my point?

I don't want to help any professors.

I don't want to subsidize any schools.

I don't want to give them free education.

I don't want to do any of these things.

We're doing enough.

Politically, it's politically getting in our, that's right.

Now, there must be some other areas where we've got some things like that where we just take our lives.

The other point is that

I really think that as far as the domestic policy is concerned, there is nothing that could be more important than the project that we need to take.

And what I'm saying sometimes does talk generally, but you can't back it up.

You know, like you had those 200 points.

He does have a point.

He says it because, for example, in automobiles, he was right and both of you were wrong.

And if Marty Stantz hadn't come in here and fucked me about automobiles, I wouldn't have stopped that goddamn airbag.

And we'd have had the airbags.

And we'd have lost more automobile sales.

And we'd have that crazy seatbelt sign with the lights flashing.

So we thought that's only two good things we've done in the automobile field.

We should do a hell of a lot more.

I just got a card the other day, I said, my God.

I got a card, it says, what in the hell is this?

It must be one of the Dominguez.

I said, oh no, this is the newest kind of Ford.

Jesus Christ, all kinds of gadgets and stuff around here.

It's all mostly put on because of government requirements.

But I think that's amazing.

What I'm getting at is this.

I really feel in the, for your field of the environment, and I know it's tough, and I know that, I know that I'm a minority in this field, and that we will get some help from some of the environmentalists, but I really feel that we've got to make some necessary jobs at this point.

And we've got to hurry up the agencies on it.

Amy Martin, Mr. President, is one of the ones.

Elaine, is that the one you're talking about?

That's a, that's a funny, that's a funny issue, Mr. President.

This one is required by law.

that you've got all of these environmental lawyers dispersed to pounce and get injunctions to stop these projects.

So you've got to be meticulous in filling this damn thing out and complying with the law.

Well, I don't have any evidence of anybody dragging these feet.

I'll check around, but I...

Listen, who is it?

Maury is so hung up on this.

I had these guys in...

We've gone over this, and believe me, Maury is just hung up on us.

I'll have my guys double-check it again, but I don't have any evidence that anybody's dragging any decisions as well.

Right.

I have had, let me tell you, I've had the consumer people and the environment people in, and we would shudder them on that.

That's one of the reasons consumers don't appear on that list, really.

It's the one that socializes.

It's like color and color.

John, you should call her in and say that we were talking about it.

The president thinks she's looking for her.

She's doing very well.

She makes a name for herself.

On this matter of jobs, yeah.

There is going to be a legislation regarding the tax credits.

They're all in certain parts of the state.

There's not going to be any.

There's not going to be a tax on this one this year.

And there is going to be a next year in time.

Now, we will come out with some next year.

We will make it.

And then they'll put it on the basis that this will create about 2,000 jobs.

But having in mind as to what we're going to do this year, we have to keep saying that there's a budget in terms

will create a job.

The only thing I've seen across the desk, and I understand, apparently, is some person's shed guard out in California.

That's fine.

Is that true?

We're going to, yes, we are.

That provides for the building.

In California.

The other thing is, in the field of housing,

You know, they will never be done out of, out of, out of, they don't understand what you're saying.

And it would be impossible.

Whatever administrative discretion can be used to increase housing, in other words, subsidize any type of housing, interest rates, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, we will do.

Housing does create jobs, and it's always, and it's an area where I really want to go on.

I want you to study, when you study the budget, John, you've never studied it.

Well, not only that, that was an end rot in there.

We've had this process going

And the problem with Romney's idea is it will put such a demand on the money market that your interest rates go right through the roof.

So we've been trying to work out a way of doing this without going into that money market.

I understand.

But we have got to.

I mean, if there's any way, any way, any construction...

I don't need house construction of any kind.

I don't care about where it is, but I don't care about next year.

I don't care about 72 now.

And then I want to announce every stinking one from the White House.

Every dead one.

I understand there must be something.

Is that Chris?

He got something that we opened.

Is he a billion three for around the transit, which is...

But is it money or is it appropriation?

It's authorization.

But we're spending it out of the five-year period that we're required to be here.

But we will accelerate that deal.

All right.

Well, that's rapid transit, and that's because it requires all the design first.

But we can, the housing, and there's a lot of construction.

The reason that the budget office traditionally is worried about the public works and construction is not the first year, it's the third and fourth year, because it fills up.

Let me tell you the problem we've got here, Kevin.

We're either going to spend the money this way, or the Congress is going to force us to select the wrong idea.

In other words, it's no good choice.

I know we shouldn't screw her, and I think the best thing we can do for the economy is to let the money go to 7%.

Frankly, that's what ought to happen, but we can't do it now because we won't survive.

And also, we can't do it because the Congress isn't going to let us.

We have gotten presented now, from now on, tax.

Nothing else.

And next year's company has got to come up.

With the tax reform bill, I don't give a goddamn what it is.

Increase taxes if you want.

But we're going to decrease your property taxes.

I hadn't realized the point that Elliot made.

I had never come home.

It really, the property tax is the most aggressive of all taxes.

All of us have all been taught it in our college economics.

because the sales tax was the regressing tax, but the property tax is more.

Oh, sure.

Because, you see, because of the income tax, and because down there you get a higher percentage of your money for that.

Well, you know, the old folks, you weren't there at that time, were you?

No.

Let me tell you what they said.

Now, here are these old folks all out with their hands on the money, you know.

Why wouldn't they be?

But, my golly, the one thing all the groups agreed upon, they said, did you know, could you do something about our property taxes?

Did you know that 70% of us own our houses or apartments?

70% of the entire people.

If you want to do something for the old folks, that ought to be in that speech in Chicago.

It's the property tax.

Property tax relief.

Not in the interest of the poor.

That's what I was speaking about.

That's all you have to do.

But for the great blue collar guys.

He's a dork instead that sits out there, and he lives out in these single little suburbs, and I think that house is in Orange County, or Cicero will have gone to Manion, and the rest, and he owns the other place, and it's his, and he can't keep living in it, because he can't pay the taxes.

But he can.

But he can't move.

He can't move.

And I'm not sure that I can believe, I don't know that the taxes are that big a problem.

I think the reason that he has a hell of a problem with the taxes is

And it has distinguished from the income tax, which is much higher, and the sales tax, which comes out of him day by day, week by week.

So he's forced to do it, like insurance or whatever.

But in the case of the property tax, it comes at a gulp, and the poor son of a bitch has to save for it.

So he's got to go to the bank.

Then he goes to a credit union.

Or he goes to one of these brokers and he borrows the money at 12% and pays tax.

It's a horrible thing.

I want you to play this with cold bulletin steel in your hand.

Every decision is to be made in terms of jobs, right?

Every decision is to be made in terms of, as far as revenue sharing, hell, I believe in it.

I think it's a great issue, a fine issue.

I don't agree with the Vice President that every major, any major basis for the issue is that it tears the Democratic establishment up.

It's true that that may help live, but it helps the greatest people.

The real problem with revenue sharing is that it's got to be related to folks.

Now, and as I talked to the

Now, the other thing I want to do is, I want to take the issue that we were talking about when we did it, and I really want that analyzed by somebody outside, you know, you can get the canon, that's an outside role, analyze it, somebody else analyze it, but what you've really got to do is to get it out there.

Let me explain.

A superficial look at an issue pole,

It can lead you to terrible, terrible mistakes.

And I must say, I think we've got to continue to take issue polls.

About six months from now, I would wait that long.

I would wait that long.

But the Gallup issue poll isn't worth a damn, due to the fact that it tells the person

Well, I'd like to do one of those right quick.

You know about this one.

What's the main problem of your, what do you think is the biggest issue with your family?

It comes out all together, what is the biggest issue?

Confirming the nation.

They have the worst sense of what a nation is, but he's going to vote his family, not the nation.

Not the war.

See, the war has already gone.

I mean, we'll be looking good in that.

But then they're going to have something else created with a media address.

And I think it's running this family block.

It's a family budget.

Everybody should come to the paper.

You're just going to take the old lady out to the movies tonight.

But we can break that down.

Yeah, but see, we can break that down in a family issue.

No.

In what kind of issues?

What kind of economic issues?

Is it taxes?

Is it... Now, here's the place, here's the place, that you might be able to, Colson might be able to use that poor Harris.

He is supposed to be awfully good at analyzing.

Blue Harris.

And analyzing...

That's where he's good at.

He's a liar when it comes to polls, because he loathes them to fit his analysis.

But on the other hand, he's good at analyzing where you go.

He guided Kennedy into the various things that Kennedy had to hit in 1960, and he guided him pretty damn well.

He made an issue with the missile damage issue, and he also hit us on the front of the mother.

Some old woman here broke this glass.

Must be an 80-year-old man, 30-year-old man.

Are you doing that?

Why are you doing that?

He's a 30-year-old man.

Well, what I can tell you is that that man is very good for everybody to hear.

Well.

It's not only, but also it's good for, I want you to get him.

For example, I want Conley.

I want Conley Steele to strengthen his strategy.

Now, I know Charles, that he was approved, a plan to get him.

I don't give one damn about all the rest of the stuff.

It's all a question of...

It's a, you talk about the cost-benefit ratio, the hell with the benefit.

The question is, it's cost-job ratio.

Job, job, job, job, every time.

How many jobs are you creating and how many are you going to win?

Win.

Now, a little bit of hopeful stuff, but you might have so many jobs that you know we're a jury, the time is good.

But we've got to get a sudden fit in.

I do feel that your idea of separating out, I didn't want to lift the curtain on that because I guess you already told them, but separating out is your record of sharing.

Well, I'm getting the numbers on that.

We'll have that by noon.

But I didn't want to broach that with anybody until we knew whether we could do it or not safely.

And Nathan's working on it right now.

We just got the

And incidentally, whatever it costs to get the jobs, I don't care about the budget, I don't care about the inflation, else get the jobs.

Because whoever, if those who oppose us should win, the costs

in terms of budget and inflation will be infinitely greater.

This is the strongest point I would make.

I've done a lot of talk recently with public groups and others, and there's a lot of carving, a lot of actresses, and it's too hard, too devastating.

I always ask, what's the alternative?

And then you run down the list of these extinct volcanoes in the sun, and they are absolutely, at that point, it's the strongest argument you can make.

When you take, for example, I didn't raise it this morning because Bob Robinson

Now, some of our people were concerned because they didn't think we gave a positive enough mention.

It just doesn't take people.

Once, just once.

Don't worry about Brown on that now, because he's been really fighting that battle.

He would do.

Oh, it would?

It would fight that battle.

They came in, they presented section requests and or demands.

And I told White Monster, I said, the trouble is with all of our groups,

a tendency for them to hear government everything they want to hear, and things that then proved wrong.

And I told them the truth.

I said, we can do some of these things, we can't do others, but we'll be honest with you.

I have everyone, 80 cabinet officers, spent hundreds of hours working personally on this, and we gave an answer in all 60.

Now some are horrible, some are against it, and some we had to do to get an answer.

Now, if we had to say yes to all 60 demands, let me tell you what it would cost.

$102 billion a year, right?

That's a 50% tax increase for every American.

Next question.

Well, you can tell them how much they need in the enterprise cars when they're getting right in the jobs like that.

It's a 50% tax increase for 80% of the people.

Right?

It should be controlled.

It's getting worse.

Of course, in some cities, it's really getting worse.

Well, I know you've been doing this before, but I think maybe we haven't focused enough, John, on our own lives.

focused enough on the whole job, and let me say, particularly in terms of talk now, was Mark talking through his hat, and he said, if you give me that saline water.

Yeah, right through his hat.

Yeah, that's very slow, okay?

I mean, announce the progress.

Some things will have to do, but they aren't the designs, Steve.

The place we can really make jobs is, for instance, in GSA.

We've got a whole lot of federal buildings, all designed, with the land all bought, with a whole lot of money.

The thing that we did this year, Mr. President, was to put in a request to Congress to let

lease, let us sell the land and sell the design to private construction firms and let them build the building.

It would keep the land on the tax rolls locally and it would give us a lot to have ahead.

And the Congress thus far will not vote on that.

It's a very, it's a, it's a difference between being able to do with the normal financing about three to four buildings a year as it gives 35 to 38.

But we could do 35 or 38 force account.

if we decided to reallocate our priorities.

Well, if we reallocate our priorities, if we can stop some of the other things we're doing, but how many people agree to stop any of the other things we're doing?

Well, like model cities, like some of the costs of education, some of the best costs of education, things of this kind.

We can't find them.

They're all tough to see.

They aren't tough for me.

Education is not tough.

Model cities is not tough.

Model cities is at least tough.

But the building construction, the irrigation, the flood control, all of these pay quickly.

The thing that pays off the quickest and has the most immediate stimulation is, of course, the tax cut.

And the tax cut.

But that's legislation.

And I agree with you that the tax legislation is going to be a very difficult thing to get within a year.

Just about impossible.

Well, the other thing then is really to get, frankly, to get maybe rolls.

This is a boondoggle.

Sorry, Public Works?

Yeah, that is a boondoggle.

Oh, that's awesome.

That's what I think it rolled as well.

I know.

See, that's got all the evils.

And no good.

What can we do?

They drank it out of us reluctantly by overwriting each other and all that, but I think that what we can do is offer this.

The only thing that I've always tried to hold out for, and this is a responsibility, is to try to cut out some of the other things we're doing in order to raise...

Well, how about arguing this?

Supposing they send us a three and a half billion dollar accelerated public works program, and no tax increase.

Alright, then that three and a half has to come from someplace, because we can't admit a deficit.

So you say, all right, now we're going through the process of figuring out where we're going to get the three and a half.

We can get it through cutting model cities and education and some of these things.

So we've identified a pool of three and a half.

But we don't need accelerated public works as a piece of legislation.

We can take that three and a half that they've required us to identify.

And we can go over here and build 38 buildings for which we have plans and we'll create immediate public employment in a sense.

So we vetoed the thing.

We announced we're slashing the $3.5 billion.

And we're announcing the start of 38 projects that are already on the books that will make immediate jobs.

Now, there's a strategy for meeting the accelerated public work start cut it out of domestic programs.

Well, we can.

They're tough.

They're nasty.

They really are miserable, but they can be done and they can be found.

What's needed is the, well, frankly, what you just said, that you're willing to do it in an order that you're concerned to go along with it.

But what I'm suggesting is that rather than being in the posture of simply vetoing jobs, as it would appear, we say we've got $3.5 billion worth of public works.

that we can accelerate, provided that Congress is really willing to make the commitment to dig this $3.5 billion out of someplace except deficit.

And we might put together at least a rough scenario like that.

And it would be a hell of an unpalatable thing from the Congress standpoint.

But you'd have a complete defense.

You'd say, I can't go for more inflation.

I can't go for greater deficit.

So I've got to dig into the

See, the key here would be that this would be the beneath public construction as opposed to the old labor and stuff that you already got designed.

Which is delayed for two and a half years.

The accelerated public works is the greatest public issue there is because it just doesn't happen.

We're still getting out now on the accelerated public works that was passed in the early 60s.

And that's how slow it takes us.

Don't give up on it.

No, sir.

I can't give you anything.

Absolutely nothing.

Don't drive in the streets.

Where are they?

The house, the house has been, it seems to me, so, so terribly.

What do you think about the source point?

Yes, sir.

I completely agree that you've got to have a fight in order to dramatize your posture.

I'm going to send it over to John.

It's like, for example, in a very different sense.

But I may be depressed.

It may be about maybe the best thing that could happen.

That's what I think.

Because 70% of the people are for the police.

Yep.

It's the one thing that redistributes the tax burden instead of just increasing it.

And with 33 and a third percent of the GNP going from taxes, this point really seems to get over.

And I think that's the way you...

As a general rule, local taxes, the taxes leveled by local government, are regressive.

As a general rule, the taxes levied by the federal government are progressive.

And the alternative is if you lose revenue sharing, the only alternative is more and more local regressive taxation.

And you just squeeze the property tax product.

We have been hammering this...

argument hard, but it's got to be translated into the average guy's tax bill.

That's right.

The other point on it is the only opposition... Let me see.

Let me see about one page on that.

And I'll submit every cabinet officer and say, well, now I've got

say this.

I've got a set of notes and I'll feed it in to John.

The other thing, again, the same argument that you closed with that I would use is just what's the alternative?

You lose revenue shares, you have more property taxes.

There's no other alternative.

And also the fact that the only opposition I've ever encountered to it is in Washington.

It's nowhere else.

It's just in Washington.

Everybody else is for it, but Mills and all of the Barrett and the Congress and so on.

Mills was on Meet the Press that day and they said...

Why do you want to restrict cities?

He says, I don't want to restrict cities.

I just want to restrict the way cities can spend the money.

They got doing pretty good on this whole tax business.

Well, I'll get you something on that.

I'm just thinking I might be able to.

Well, I'll tell you what you can do.

That one guy that seems to have something, that of our writers, it's the best way to go for the jugulars.

You can't give it to him.

All right.

And let me see what he says as to how it could be distributed.

And I'll take a look at it, and we can find it.

We'll get it out and have everybody sing the same.

We might make this a major thrust in Rochester.

We'll do some research on Rochester property taxes and what they've been and New York property taxes generally statewide and focus right in on revenue sharing and property taxes up there.

The only other issue about revenue sharing that could be popular is reporting police forces and the

The difficulty is that that is related only to their pay rates.

Well, see, that's a fear because of Lindsey's experience.

Everybody's watched Lindsey take all these additional reps. More and more pay for government employees and the local acceptance.

Except for the police.

Well, even in the instance of police in New York City, Lindsay's had such round heels with that police union that people just, you know, think they're throwing their money away.

Well, I don't know.

It's an interesting thing, though, John.

These guys, county officers, they only have one department to run each one of them.

Why are they so goddamn illiterate?

Now, here's what's bad.

They raised a point that was not legitimate.

Morton's hit a point that was not legitimate, was not backed up, that 2,000 jobs would save him water.

Romney hit a point that had not been briefed on because it would have kicked up the, you said, the interest rates and so forth and so on.

I got that.

What's the matter?

Well, they're all advocates.

All right.

And they're all advocates.

He's not a nationalist.

And this is the whole function in here, frankly, is to...

This is the only place where there's an overall view.

It's right in this room, and it's pretty darn rough.

What everyone else regards you as some sort of enemy that's trying to keep them from doing something they want to do.

I understand there being advocates, but my point is an advocate should be right on his facts.

Or he was wrong on his facts correctly, John.

so was Martin, was wrong in his facts, so was Ronald.

Now, not that people should not be wrong in their facts.

Well, I'll tell you, the best facts, source of facts, is George and Cap and Arnie's shop over there.

And when we get a paper in from Martin who says, I'm for saline water, make 50,000 jobs, and Don Rice goes to work on this, and they dig into it, and they say, yes, over a period of eight years,

You know, it's true, 50,000 jobs, but we just didn't ask the right question.

When?

And so...

But is there anything that we can redo there in terms of the... Well, there is enough money.

There is a lot of money.

A lot of money.

He's got one pilot project, but they're building it out in the desert.

Well, here's a project now that ties to the thing Martin said.

It appeals to me.

It is in Volpe's area.

you know he said let's take one drainage basin and let's do a job on it and i think that's valid i guess john connelly said that we've been after the potomac river the only thing that's going to take to solve the potomac river is money and it's going to create jobs and so

in this whole West Virginia, Maryland, this whole area, this whole drainage basin, runs clear up into Pennsylvania.

Now, there's something where a lot of plans are already drawn.

If we just block this off... Oh, yes.

Yes, indeed.

That's right.

Over a period of five years.

That's about a billion dollars a year for five years.

Talk to that guy, let's compare that six foot eight with my other six foot eight expense on the river.

The one thing that I'm always emphasizing in there is the worry about a tax increase.

I just think that's the one thing we can't possibly propose.

And I think that that's why I keep emphasizing that if we're going to start something new, fine, we've got to take something else down.

Maybe you can't propose it, but maybe you can't face the fact that we...

If it's an increase, I think it's just about impossible to sell people because of the total they're paying.

Now, not just federal, but that's the big thing about revenue sharing.

It doesn't require more.

It shifts the total amount coming in to better areas.

But if you have to go in in January of 72 and ask for more tax money because you can't stand the kinds of deficits we're having,

And that's where you get the ideological handoff with the conservatives because we keep doing all the crappy stuff and then add the other stuff.

That's the thing.

See, this is what I get at all of the Republican or business-oriented speeches I make.

They always say, what about this enormous deficit?

What's that?

And so I tell them about the alternatives and what they're going to get if they get some other government that isn't as worried as we are about it and all the rest.

But if we have in our fight with the Congress, if we have to go in and say in January, we're going to have to have more taxes.

then I think we're very close to dead.

We've got to have the jobs, but what we've got to do in order to get them, I think, is to stop doing some of the other things we're doing.

And that's how we know we can come up with tax reform, basically.

Well, in terms of getting the convergence away from the tax system.

Because if they have property tax, they've got to do something.

The only way, that's the local tax.

And we can't sign up by giving more people money locally in the hope they'll pull the property tax down.

That's right.

That's why the credit or something is...

If you pull your property tax down, tax credit simply forces everybody to impose an income tax.

City and county and everybody that doesn't have one now.

But something that has a condition attached to it

that in order to get federal funds, you've got to lower your property tax.

It's a very useful device.

But anything that's identified as a tax increase, I think it's the other way around.

Let's see if we can deal with the tax increase.

Well, we've built into the property, the revenue sharing formula, we've built in a debit for tax, a maintenance of tax, which I was groveling about.

Well, but you notice what's happening up there now.

The five mayors that were up there yesterday, Johnny Burns was pounding away on them.

Your state taxes less than other states.

Why should we help you when you fellows aren't taxing yourselves?

And Stokes and all the rest of them had to admit that they were below the national average, that their cities are in trouble, their cities are not getting money.

And, of course, one of the problems is that the state legislatures are not being responsive to their cities.

He looks at it on how much he has to pay all three levels of care benefits.

When he knows, as he knows now, that that's a third of his total income, perhaps bad on the average, a hell of a lot more for some, for our constituency, really, then he doesn't want any more, and he doesn't care how it's devised or anything else.

And if the federal government says, we've got to have more money from you, we hope it'll lower your local taxes, that's not hope.

Not hope.

You've got to have a direction.

You've got to have a clear-cut issue next time.

indicating that we, some way or other, it's a property that we have a scheme whereby property taxes will come down.

I don't know how that's how it's going to come down.

But that's why I'm always so reluctant on it.

It keeps forcing us into that, but we can cut some things, but they're all very miserable decisions.

You can have Class A and Class B federal taxpayers.

And everybody who's in a Class A state pays a different rate in federal income tax than everybody in a Class B state.

And a Class A state's one where they've lowered their real estate tax.

How do you like equal protection of the law?

You're going in and meet the new board of directors.

And you're going to say to them, fight George!

new board of directors.

You're a fine group.

And tell me all about your troubles.

And then you're going to sit there and listen for about 15 minutes and then tell them that you've got an international crisis that you've got to go and look at.

If Opie's going to be there, I've told Krogh to tell him that the 30 minutes are not available and the entire meeting has to be disposed of.

Right.

And they will want to report to you on all their troubles and about how the Congress doesn't like them because they've cut out a lot of lines and all that stuff.

But they're under, Volpe's under instructions that this is a 50- Well, that guy, homebuilder, sat there for 40 minutes, read from, I didn't think he'd ever get through those sheets, like the Mexican president, you know, the yellow pad.

Yep, yep.

One after the other.

We now had another thing, Mr. President.

I'd like to mention, I had another thing, I had another thing.

When Frank got all that, he said, they finally get to the first thing, and we finally got to the last one.

How about later, like this way?

Yeah.

Well, that was enough.

We finished well.

I don't know why we met with him, frankly.

I guess it was for the purpose of fun.

And the same with Maury's businessman.

He's useless.

He's a swine bitch.

They're worth a damn even when they're done.

Let other people be with them.

We've done that, particularly the big business types.

That's a very sad fact.

Well, you know, you're coming into our friends.

We'll see.

Let me argue another side of that.

I think you're coming into a campaign phase at this point where, in the same sense that you work a fence and you shake hands with a lot of people, you touch a few, you know, and everybody you touch

That passes the word.

Passes the word.

He goes away and there's a multiplier.

Let me say this.

We've touched, for every voter, we've touched more business hands.

About every time we turn around, I need some business hands.

But this is a business administration.

I know, I know, I know.

If you were Lyndon Johnson, you'd have to see all the terrible labor leaders.

I see that too.

Not why it is on the business side.

We are...

as I was talking about, we go over and over and over at the same time.

some of the small businesses, some of the local businesses.

God damn it, I've been through that business council thing and this thing again comes up all the time.

We see Harper and Weiner and all those guys.

They're the strongest advocates of tough wage and price control in the country at this time.

See how low the philosophical road is.

And yet when you come right down to it in Ashland, you're going to want wage and price control.

That's right.

That's our creative problem.

That's right.

Yeah.

Mr. President.

There isn't anybody in this room that will argue with you.

I'll go in with you.

What the hell

Correct.

Oh, ran into an airplane.

Yeah, another airplane.

Ooh, quick.

I know, but quick was the wrong pattern.

Somebody seems to know.

They were both flying along, minding their own business.

They were on different patterns.

They were away, away from cities or airports or in Delaware.

They were in the right direction.

And so, it was an air question.

There was an air question.

It was an air question.

and how they've improved them or developed them or something.

But I'm starting to get a little tired.

It gives you an idea of what you're doing and what you're up to.

So I'm going to take it from here.

And then I'm going to...

So what I'm going to do is...

I'm going to take a second.