Colson & Sanchez on White House press relations and media bias

1:08Get out of here.
1:54Oh, I want to tell you that I'd like to look at the house for editing purposes.
2:19I think it could be improved by cutting.
2:34All right.
2:34Do you read it all?
2:35Oh, yes.
2:35And it's in one line right over here.
2:38Now, I guess maybe that's my problem.
2:40We cut it about in half from when it started out.
2:41The difficulty I have with the job is that I just don't like all that crap about morality.
2:45And I don't like the title.
2:46There's one title in there, Complexities.
2:47I don't like that.
2:48You can't ever admit that there's such a thing.
3:01Well, let me get it back to you.
3:04Well, you understand, the substance will abide.
3:05The only one thing that I have some concern about is why we couldn't be a little bit more precise in interpreting those two cases at the end and gotten the cases that you, I mean, I like them.
3:14And to me, it seemed to me that the, and it may be that you're trying to
3:16We're trying to bend over too far and make sure these, well, are the liberals lying there.
3:27And the clear implication of those cases is that was the question of intent, and it weren't a question
3:41in the case of people at large voting in a referendum.
3:50That doesn't come true at all.
3:52And the way that paragraph is written, it's got us along and all that.
3:56It got a little... We can sharpen that up.
3:57Well, I think it should be sharpened up.
4:01And read the case.
4:02Because that...
4:02Doesn't that really give you the basis for doing the other one?
4:08The one coming up...
4:09I think that the goddamn people want it.
4:20They want to live in a neighborhood of higher-priced homes.
4:30They have a right to.
4:31Absolutely.
4:31Absolutely.
4:32This does not make that clear.
4:34It has in the economic narration and all the rest.
4:38And
4:39I think it's there, the detention, but can we get through approximately 18, I think it's 22, 20, 20 to 5,000 words.
4:49It's pretty much lost.
4:51Well, we'll try and cut, say, cut 25 to 30 percent of it as a target and see what we can do.
5:04That's quite small.
5:04Yeah.
5:04When we started, we cut pretty hard, and
5:09You know, when you live with a draft, then you figure, gee, this is bare bones at this point.
5:15But we can do better.
5:17Well, Ray, is Ray the draft?
5:21Yes.
5:21I know.
5:21We were working on a draft.
5:24Oh, yeah, I've got some more.
5:27Did you get a second?
5:30Do you want us to do some cutting, or do you want me to take another look at it?
5:46Maybe I'll take a look.
5:47I'll get it back to you, and then I can spend some time on it today.
5:51Maybe I'll be more careful the second time, because I just thought of it last night.
5:53Well, let me arrange to get it back to you.
5:54Let me just make that goddamn brief, because that was a bunch of assholes.
5:56And they've got 30 minutes, that means an hour, with that son of a bitch who's a scolding.
5:58Yep.
6:00Well, I understand that I was supposed to be, but I can't be.
6:13I have a conflict, so that probably won't be there.
6:19I think it's so ridiculous, and I don't like the concept at all.
6:20Eisenhower, that is, is a head of the bank.
6:27Hello?
6:30Yeah, what I was, uh, talking about on this, uh, assignment, the presentation of laws, you have, uh, did you have, did we have anybody there that was trying to, uh, take our, up our side, or what, uh, or was there any preparation?
6:50I understand what that means.
6:56Wait a minute.
6:56Uh, uh,
6:57They thought they asked about the disclosure on laws and so forth and so on.
7:10As a matter of fact, we disclosed the whole goddamn thing, didn't we?
7:14Because I had a case that was in Saigon, Hawaii that calls upon the administration to disclose what we're doing.
7:19Well, goddamn, we disclosed it.
7:22It seems to me that...
7:23But we got somebody that can take the offensive on the thing for us, sir.
7:39What have you, what's been done on that?
7:43Who'd you talk to, Colson or who, McGregor?
7:47That's just a terrible thing.
7:48They always dominate those, don't they?
7:50The other thing that you got that final cash to put your hand on, it is 19.
7:51And that's your time.
7:53Now, I want you to pass that, if you would, immediately to Scalia, and tell him to develop a plan as to how we can get a maximum impact from that plan.
8:08They should say the president again proved right, you know, the president catched us in the holes.
8:15That's what you say they were.
8:16This was pretty...
8:17It's down for five and a half years, because we might as well curl online, don't you?
8:19This is the first time it's been below 20%.
8:28Yeah.
8:38Yeah, yeah, we've heard about it.
8:43Yeah, yeah.
8:44Why don't we just say that I'd like for him to go a later time.
8:46It won't fit in that something we're doing was the Russians or some damn thing.
9:03I'll take the orders.
9:41If you see a white burger, hurry and come in.
9:49And, uh, hello.
9:51And make sure that he's still around.
9:52Let's figure out how to get all three.
10:11Take that, please.
10:20Yeah.
10:20Do you take care of certificates, et cetera, for, you know, in those things?
10:27I want to be sure that all those groups, not all of them, it's pretty busy.
10:31You know, like the Tulsa Choirs, there were about 18 bands there and so forth.
10:35Did they all?
10:38Good, good.
10:39And all those, all those will be covered on the Tulsa visit and on the West Point visit and the rest.
10:48Good.
10:48That's routine, but it'll be very, very good.
10:59Good enough.
11:00Thank you.
11:06Oh, yes.
11:13Yes, he and Larry are invited to all of this matter.
11:21And Rogers would come ordinarily if he's in town.
11:25Now, we wouldn't let Irwin come.
11:29You're right.
11:31And so...
11:31I guess, for all I know, I should have given you that chance to say...
11:36I don't think they were actually counseled, right?
11:55I just want to see.
11:58I got to swear, right?
12:01They're catching him now.
12:01Turns out that we have a parent who's testified.
12:02Curtis Parr, please.
12:03Uh...
12:03Wait a minute.
12:04If you've got any further on Rochester, is it all going according to plan?
12:23Just an ordinary briefing, is it?
12:25Just a briefing, not to meet the mayor.
12:26I just thought very much I didn't want to have an interview.
12:28So we're looking into the idea of having a reception at Paul Clark's house.
12:30I'm sure he's willing.
12:31At that point, he was weak.
12:31Yeah, he was using that room.
12:32He just saw it for a little time.
12:33If Paul could have...
12:34And so that was you, I thought he had a very high level heart with him.
12:51So that he knows that I wanted him.
12:51He had one minute or so when I was there in 1954.
12:53In fact, you just ought to call him on the phone and just say that, because at the end of the day, I just wanted to have a few buddy-buddy friends.
12:56You know, only me, 15 or 20, where I could sit around and talk to him.
13:00I had a great experience with him.
13:03I don't know what that means.
13:03Establishment.
13:05what we call a working dinner, a working lunch.
13:23I've told Bob, the State Department, and so forth, that there is no such thing as a working dinner, a working lunch.
13:29You work before you have lunch.
13:30You want to take a car, I guess, or other people might need to do them.
13:32But I've got a... And so, like, when we have Brian over here, rather than having 28, or they allow me, I just listen to the jackasses.
13:35I just wanted to congratulate you on that fine picture of you.
13:50You look strong, vigorous, manly, and I thought, boy, you wouldn't want to drag me.
13:54I bet you've got a lot of good comments on me, haven't you?
13:59Yeah?
14:00Good.
14:00Oh, of course it was sad, because my wife, she had his own issues to do with me, and somebody was a little bit nuts.
14:04That's what they are.
14:09They were exhibitionists, basically.
14:11When they come chatting at you like that, all you can do is throw it off.
14:18You can handle it, but they can't do it.
14:20And, uh, you have, uh, you have to stand this day and then.
14:22Never, never, never worry about it.
14:23Many times, you know, you're better off other than by your academies and your friends.
14:27You know what I'm saying?
14:28Yes.
14:30Uh, bye.
14:30Poor guy.
14:31Always worried about these things.
14:32You're...
14:35I guess why I heard you're not here.
14:46Well, anyway, what I had to do is, like in Rochester, all of these libraries, I had these editors before, so I don't want any editors.
15:02But I mean the business only has editors.
15:03The Rochester elite, rather than the Rochester man, he might have a few from around, you know, that's a pretty big area.
15:29Yeah.
15:29Well, I think it was a useful meeting for the people to have a chance to sort of raise their
15:32It gives us a foundation of security.
15:39Well, it's a big, it's embarrassing, man, because basically, you know, it's just about, you know, and it's really sorry, it's sad.
15:47They've all worked hard, many trips, many stages, and I don't know if the rest of the funding comes through.
15:56And as I said, we don't want to have to be captains.
15:57We'll probably be known as scholars.
15:59We have to work on these fellows to constantly be creative in their attempts to penetrate the public consciousness.
16:12Boke talks about going to Maine and tearing down a billboard.
16:16I don't know, maybe that's our fault.
16:22Can I suggest this, Bob?
16:26You do give me, and I'd like to see it, but I've got to do it tomorrow.
16:41Tomorrow.
16:41Tomorrow.
16:41That's a better day.
16:41The three points you think cabinet officers ought to mention.
16:47Remember I said that, I think one thing, for example, they all have to talk about something about the president.
16:50They can talk about, first, the world leader, the leader deal.
16:52Second, the dignity deal.
16:53Bolder.
16:53Bolder.
16:53Stronger.
16:54Stronger.
16:54And that's the one that hasn't gotten through that should.
17:08We've got all of them.
17:09Do you want me to come in?
17:12Yes.
17:12No, that's good.
17:13Well, I understand.
17:14I understand.
17:14Well, that, of course, was the main one.
17:15But I think the world leader relationship is strong.
17:16Right?
17:16It's good for other reasons.
17:18It's so easy to say, right?
17:19You know, sit down, strength out, strength, toughness.
17:21That's the one that seems to me can't help but be believable, that has easily backed up points to prove it, and yet hasn't done so.
17:35Cap, I wanted to talk to you about...
17:37I want to make sure I have it.
17:45I want a better approach to the budget this time.
17:53That's something else, but basically you're a politician.
18:13You understand that.
18:13So if you want to say this is the first time we've had a lot of politics, man.
18:15The great problem we have now is that we're not making the spending that's funny enough to bring the spending politically.
18:17And too many times I get something in here a lot of times, and I refuse to send it.
18:19It's his show.
18:19It's his job here.
18:22something to prevent $200 million from once you've gotten that.
18:36Professors, I signed it.
18:37I shouldn't have.
18:37I shouldn't have signed it.
18:40I should have said that we spent $200 million for interest rates or something like that.
18:42You see my point?
18:42I don't want to help any professors.
18:43I don't want to subsidize any schools.
18:44I don't want to give any for education.
18:45I don't want to do any of these things.
18:46We're doing enough.
18:47We're doing enough.
18:47And politically, politically, that's right.
18:48Now, there must be some other areas where we've got some things like that where we just take our lives.
18:51The other point is that
18:53I really think that as far as the domestic policy is concerned, there is nothing that could be more important than the project that we need to take.
19:05I'm already saying summertime chosen.
19:10You know, like he had those 200 points.
19:20But sometimes he does have a point.
19:21He says that he does.
19:24For example, in automobiles, he was right and both he was wrong.
19:26And if Marty Stantz hadn't come in here and fucked me about automobiles, I would have stopped that goddamn airbag.
19:29And we'd have had the airbags.
19:31And we'd have lost more automobile sales.
19:32And we'd have had that crazy seatbelt sign with the lights flashing.
19:34So we thought, that's only two good things we've done.
19:40We should do a hell of a lot more.
19:44I just got a card the other day.
19:45I said, my God.
19:47I got a card that says, what in the hell is this?
19:50It must be one of the Blinkins.
19:51I said, oh no, this is the newest type of board.
19:54Jesus Christ, all kinds of gadgets and stuff around here.
19:56It's all the most people put on because of the government requirements.
19:58But I think that's amazing.
19:58What I'm getting at is this.
20:00I really feel that the bigger deal with the environment, and I know it's tough, and I know that I'm a minority in this field, and that we will catch on some of the environmentalists, but I really feel that we've got to take some necessary jobs at this point.
20:23And we've got to hurry up the agencies on it.
20:24Amy Martin's department is one of the ones.
20:26Is that the one you're talking about?
20:27That's a funny, that's a funny issue, Mr. President.
20:28This one is required by law.
20:30that you've got all of these environmental lawyers just cursed.
20:36stop these projects.
20:51So you've got to be meticulous in filling this damn thing out.
20:56Well, I don't have any evidence that anybody's dragging these feet.
20:58I'll check around, but I... Morrie is so hung up on this.
20:59I had these guys in, and we've gone over this, and believe me, Morrie is just hung up on this.
21:05I'll have my guys double-check it again.
21:09But I don't have any evidence that anybody's dragging any decisions as well.
21:20I have had, let me tell you, I've had the consumer people and the environment people in, and we would shutter them on that.
21:35The woman is doing a great job, and there's people there who are doing a fair job, and they don't think we're going to do that.
21:38That's one of the reasons consumers don't appear on that list, really.
21:39It's the woman.
21:39It's the woman.
21:40Jessica, you should call her and say that we were talking about her.
21:52The president thinks she's looking for her.
21:55She's doing very well.
21:56She makes a name for herself.
21:57This is an obvious matter of jobs, Captain.
22:07Now there is going to be legislation regarding tax credits, they're all concerned about that.
22:26There's not going to be any.
22:26There's not going to be any tax credits this year, and there is going to be any next year in time.
22:30Now, we will come out with some next year.
22:33We will make, and then they'll put it on the basis that this will create about 2,000 jobs.
22:34But having in mind as to what we're going to do this year, we have to consider this budget in terms
22:37of what will create a job.
22:51The only thing I've seen across the desk, and I understand, apparently, is some person's shed yard out in California.
22:55That's fine.
23:01Is that true?
23:01We're going to, yes.
23:01What is that?
23:02What is that?
23:02Merchandising program that provides for the building of a very large business.
23:04All right.
23:04California.
23:04California.
23:04The other thing is, in the field of housing,
23:06You know, they will never be done out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of, out of,
23:30And it's an area where I really want to roll out.
23:43I want you to study it with me.
23:45You've studied it, but John, you haven't studied it.
23:48I've got to make matches and tell you what the hell it is.
23:50All right.
23:50But I'm afraid, tell me if I'm wrong, that when they talk about it, when they talk about interest,
23:53a subsidy for interest for middle income and other housing, and that is something that would require the legislation.
24:00Well, not only that, that was an end rot in there.
24:02We've had this process going.
24:04And the problem with Romney's idea is it will put such a demand on the money market that your interest rates go right through the roof.
24:12So we've been trying to work out a way of doing this without going into that money market.
24:19I understand.
24:23I understand.
24:24But we have got to.
24:28I mean, there's any way, any way, any construction.
24:30I don't need house construction of any kind.
24:47I don't care about that, where it is, but I don't care about next year.
24:49I don't care about 72 now.
24:50And then I want to announce every stinking one from the White House.
24:52Every dead one.
24:52Now understand, there must be something.
24:53Is that crazy?
24:53Well, we got something that we opened.
24:54Is he a billion three for rapid transit, which is quite a bit?
24:56Is it money?
24:56Or is it appropriation?
24:56It's not authorization.
24:57It's not authorization.
24:57It's authorization, but we're spending it out of the five-year.
25:00Well that's rapid transit and that's because it requires all the design first.
25:12But we can, the housing and there's a lot of construction.
25:17The reason that the budget office is worried about the
25:19public works and construction.
25:36It's not the first year, it's the third and fourth year because it builds up.
25:38Let me tell you the problem we've got here, Captain.
25:39We're either going to do spending the money this way or the Congress is going to force us to select the wrong money.
25:41In other words, it's no good choice.
25:42I know we shouldn't screw around.
25:43I think the best thing we can do for the economy is to let our money go to 7%.
25:44Frankly, that's what ought to happen, but we can't do it now because we won't survive.
25:46And also, we can't do it because the Congress is going to let us.
26:00John, the Congressman, killed that guy on the trip, and they'll pass it over to me.
26:02No, that's the whole deal.
26:02They'll pass it over to me.
26:03No revenue sharing by burning up the money for a lot of other nonsense.
26:07Yes, yes, yes.
26:08On the revenue sharing, too, as I say, this does bear out my point to you, John.
26:10We have gotten presented now, from now on, tax, dealings, tax, nothing else, nothing else.
26:14And next year's conflict has got to come up.
26:15With the tax reform bill, I don't give a goddamn what it is.
26:19Increase taxes if you want.
26:21But we're going to decrease your property taxes.
26:29You know, I hadn't realized the point that Elliot made.
26:32You know, I had never come home.
26:33It really, the property tax is the most progressive of all taxes.
26:36All of us have all been taught that in our community.
26:38They're colloquing an onyx.
26:45Because the sales tax was the great wrestling tax.
26:50But the property tax is more.
26:51Oh, sure.
26:52Because, you see, because of the income tax.
26:54And, you know, because down there you pay a higher percentage of your money for that.
26:57Well, you know, the old folks, you weren't there at that time, were you?
27:00No.
27:00Let me tell you what they said.
27:01Now, here are these old folks all out with their hands on the money, you know.
27:05Why wouldn't they be?
27:06But, my fellow, the one thing all the groups agreed upon, they said, did you know,
27:08Could you do something about our property taxes?
27:12Did you know that 70% of us own our houses or apartments?
27:1670% of the entire people in America.
27:18If you want to do something for the old folks, that'll be in that speech in Chicago.
27:23It's the property tax.
27:28Not in terms of people, that's what I was speaking about.
27:46That's all you have to do.
27:46But for the great blue collar guy, he's a dork and stiff and sits out there and he lives out in these single little suburbs.
27:49I think that house is in Orange County or Cicero, Willamette, and the rest.
27:50And he always goes to a place and it's his.
27:51He can't keep living in it because he can't pay the taxes.
27:52But he can.
27:53But he can't move.
27:53He can't move.
27:53He can't move.
27:54And I'm not sure that...
27:54Believe me, I don't know that the taxes are that big a problem.
28:04I think the reason that he has a hell of a problem with the taxes is that it has distinguished from the income tax, which is much higher, and the sales tax, which comes out of him day by day, week by week.
28:10So he's forced to do it, like insurance or whatever.
28:12But in the case of the property tax, it comes at a gulp, and the poor son of a bitch has to save for it.
28:19So he's got to go to the bank to make those who accredit him.
28:23I want you to play this with cold bulletin steel.
28:43Do you remember?
28:45Every decision is to be made in terms of jobs, right?
29:01Every decision is to be made in terms of, as far as revenue sharing, hell, I believe that.
29:05I think it's a great issue.
29:06I don't agree with the Vice President that there are major, major faces for the issues, and there's a Democratic establishment.
29:10That's true, but it may not live.
29:11That helps the ratings.
29:11The real problem with revenue sharing is that it's got to be related to the folks.
29:13Now, as I talked to the
29:14Now, the other thing I want to do is, I want to take the issue pulled from the bottom when she did it, and I really want that analyzed by somebody outside, you know, I don't know what it is.
29:34I ask them, you can get the canon, that's an outside rule, analyze it.
29:37All right, somebody else analyze it.
29:38What you've really got to do is to get it analyzed.
29:41Let me explain.
29:42A superficial look at an issue pulled,
29:44It can lead you to terrible, terrible mistakes.
29:50And I must say, I think we've got to continue to take issue polls.
29:54About six months from now, I would wait that long.
29:55I would wait that long.
29:57But the Gallup issue poll isn't worth a damn, due to the fact that it tells the person
30:06Well, I'd like to do one of those right quick.
30:09You know about this one.
30:14What's the main problem?
30:15What do you think is the biggest issue for your family?
30:19It comes out all together, Victor, but what is the biggest issue?
30:23Confirming the nation.
30:24They have to be forced to have plans about the nation, but he's going to go to his family, not the nation.
30:29It's fine.
30:30See, the war is not gone.
30:30I mean, we'll be looking good in that.
30:37But then they're going to have something else created for the media to address.
30:39And I think in front of this family, well, I'm part of the family budget.
30:40Everybody should come to that picture.
30:41You're just going to take the old lady out to the movies tonight.
30:46But we can break that down.
30:47Yeah, but see, we can break that down in a family issue.
30:51No.
30:51Into what kind of issues?
30:53What kind of economic issues?
30:55Is it taxes?
30:56Is it... Now, here's the place, here's the place, isn't it, where you might be able to, Colson might be able to lose that poor Harris.
31:04He is supposed to be awfully good at analyzing.
31:07Blue Harris.
31:08And analyzing...
31:09So that's where he's good at.
31:15He's a liar when it comes to polls, because he loathes them to fit his analysis.
31:22But on the other hand, he's good at analyzing where you go.
31:28So he guided Kennedy into the various things that Kennedy had to hit in 1960, and he guided him pretty damn well.
31:31Kennedy took them.
31:31He may have made it there, but the missile crash was not an issue.
31:33He also hit us on the top of the river.
31:34It was simple.
31:36If you talk about it catching speeches at 6 p.m., you only make one.
31:48We're actually moving at this time.
31:50We're moving at that.
31:51We're moving at that.
31:52Our press speed has never been lower.
31:53No.
31:53In other words, it's not going to start being interesting.
31:56You know, he finished.
31:57There he is.
31:57I'm separated.
31:57I'm separated.
31:58It's moving.
32:00Oh, sorry.
32:03This old woman here broke this glass.
32:04Excuse me.
32:07Maybe an old man, a very old man.
32:19Are you doing that?
32:20Why are you doing that?
32:21Maybe a very old man.
32:22Well, what I can tell you is that that is a very good way to heal.
32:27Well, it's not only, it also is good for you.
32:30I want you to get, for example, on a con, and we've got to, I want to con these people.
32:31This training is bad.
32:33I don't give one damn about all the rest of this stuff.
32:52It's all a question of meaning.
33:03It's a, you're talking about the cost-benefit ratio.
33:12The hell with the benefit.
33:13The question is, it's cost-job ratio.
33:16Job, job, job, job.
33:18Every time.
33:19How many jobs do you create in a house?
33:20And when?
33:20When?
33:20Now, a little bit of portable stuff, but you might have so many jobs that you know we're a jury, the time is good.
33:23But we've got to get something fed in.
33:25I do feel that your idea of separating out, I didn't want to lift the curtain on that, I guess you already told them, but separating out, I mean separating out the vampire from the
33:44Well, I'm getting the numbers on that.
33:50We'll have that by noon.
33:51But I didn't want to broach that with anybody until we knew whether we could do it or not safely.
33:59And Nathan's working on it right now.
34:02I would like to make it clear to Commissioner, if we veto their bill, just to say here is a bill that will provide 500,000 jobs right now.
34:11We just got it.
34:12And incidentally, whatever it costs you to get the jobs, get it.
34:19I don't care about the budget.
34:20I don't care about the inflation.
34:23It helps get the jobs because whoever, if those who oppose us should win, the cost is
34:27in terms of budget and inflation will be infinitely greater.
34:44This is the strongest point I would make.
34:45I've done a lot of talk recently, or spoken through some others, and there's a lot of carpeting, a lot of agonists, isn't it?
34:47Too hard, too much devastation.
34:48I always ask, what's the alternative?
34:49And then you run down the list of these extinct volcanoes in the sun, and they are absolutely, at that point, is the strongest argument you can make.
34:52When you take, for example, I didn't raise it this morning because Bob said,
34:56Don't worry about Brown on that now, because he's been really fighting that down.
35:14Oh, it wouldn't fight that down.
35:16They came in, they presented a session of requests and orders and...
35:19And I told him, quite honestly, I said, the trouble is with all of our groups, there's been a tendency for them to hear from government everything they want to hear, and things have then proved wrong.
35:35And I told him the truth.
35:36I said, we can do some of these things, we can't do others.
35:38But we'll be honest with you, I'll have everyone, 80 cabinet officers, spent hundreds of hours working personally on this, and we gave an answer to all 60.
35:44Now some are horrible, some are against it, and some we had to do to get an answer to.
35:49Now, if we had to say yes to all 60 demands, let me tell you what it would cost.
35:57$102 billion a year, right?
35:57That's a 50% tax increase for every American.
36:04Next question.
36:04Well, you can tell them how much they need in the enterprise cards on our people, right?
36:08And the jobs like that.
36:08It's a 50% tax increase for 40% of the people.
36:12Right?
36:12It should be controlled.
36:1312%.
36:13It's getting worse.
36:20Of course, in some cities it's really getting worse.
36:23Well, I know you've been doing this before, but I think maybe we haven't focused enough, John, on our own lives.
36:32Focused on the whole job, and let me say, particularly in terms of talk now, was Mark talking through his hat, and he said, if you give me that saline water... Yeah, right through his hat.
36:49Yes, that's very slow, okay?
36:50I mean, announce the progress.
36:51Some things will have to do, but they aren't the designs, do you?
36:52The place we can really make jobs is, for instance, in GSA.
37:07We've got a whole lot of federal buildings, all designed.
37:14with a land all bought with a whole lot of money.
37:21The thing that we did this year
37:27lease, let us sell the land and sell the design to private construction firms and let them build the building.
37:47It would keep the land on the tax rolls locally, and it would give us a lot to add to that.
37:48And the Congress thus far will not vote on that.
37:49It's a very, it's a, it's a difference between being able to do with the normal financing about three to four buildings a year as it gives 35 to 38.
37:52But we could do 35 or 38 force account.
37:54if we decided to reallocate our priorities.
38:12Well, if we reallocate some priorities, if we can stop some of the other things we're doing, but the other people will agree to stop many of the other things we're doing.
38:17Well, like model cities, like some of the costs of education, some of the best jobs, things of this kind.
38:19We can't find them.
38:19They're all tough.
38:20There are kinds that aren't tough for me.
38:22Education is not tough.
38:22Model cities is not tough.
38:23Model cities is the least tough.
38:24But the building construction, the irrigation, the flood control, all of these pay quickly.
38:42The thing that pays off the quickest and has the most immediate stimulation is, of course, the tax cut.
38:45And the tax cut.
38:47But that's legislation.
38:47And I agree with you that the tax legislation is going to be a very difficult thing to get within a year.
38:49Just about impossible.
38:50Well, the other thing then is really to get, frankly, to get eight-year-olds
38:54This is Blue Dog.
39:06Sorry, Public Works.
39:08Yeah, that is a Blue Dog.
39:11Well, it's awesome.
39:12That's what I think it will be.
39:13That's what I'm saying.
39:13I know.
39:13See, that's got all the evils.
39:14And no good.
39:15What can we do?
39:16They drank it out of us reluctantly by overwriting each other and all that, but I think that what we can do is offer this.
39:20The only thing that I've always tried to hold out for, and this is a responsibility, is to try
39:28And that's the point at which... Well, how about arguing this?
39:34Supposing they send us a $3.5 billion accelerated public works program and no tax increase.
39:42All right, then that $3.5 has to come from someplace because we can't admit a deficit.
39:46So you say, all right, now we're going through the process of figuring out where we're going to get the three and a half.
39:51We can get it through cutting model cities and education and some of these things.
39:54So we've identified a pool of three and a half that we don't need accelerated public works as a piece of legislation.
40:00We can take that three and a half that they've required us to identify.
40:04And we can go over here and build 38 buildings for which we have plans and we'll create immediate public employment in a sense.
40:11So we vetoed the thing.
40:13We announced we're slashing the $3.5 billion.
40:16And we're announcing the start of 38 projects that are already on the books that'll make immediate jobs.
40:22Now there's a strategy for meeting the accelerated public work start cut it out of domestic programs.
40:33Well, we can.
40:35They're tough.
40:36They're nasty.
40:37They really are miserable, but they can be done and they can be found.
40:40What's needed is the, well, frankly, what you just said, that you're willing to do it in order to keep the gas.
40:48But what I'm suggesting is that rather than being in the posture of simply vetoing jobs, as it would appear, we say we've got $3.5 billion worth of public works.
41:02that we can accelerate, provided that Congress is really willing to make the commitment to dig this $3.5 billion out of someplace except deficit.
41:14And we might put together at least a rough scenario like that.
41:18And it would be a hell of an unpalatable thing from the Congress standpoint.
41:23But you'd have a complete defense.
41:25You'd say, I can't go for more inflation.
41:27I can't go for greater deficit.
41:29So I've got to dig into the key here would be that this would be the defense.
41:41for two and a half years.
41:53The accelerated public works is the greatest silly issue there is because it just doesn't happen.
42:00We're still getting out now on the accelerated public works that was passed in the early 60s.
42:02And that's how slow the day stops.
42:02Don't get off on that.
42:03No, sir.
42:03Absolutely anything.
42:03Don't drive in the streets.
42:10Yes, sir.
42:21I completely agree that you've got to have a fight in order to dramatize your posture.
42:36Right.
42:36I'm going to send over to John to invite, for example, a very different...
42:43I'm going to sit over these notes that I use on this television because it's right down the line.
43:02It's the one thing that offers an opportunity to cut property taxes or leave them low.
43:05It's the one thing that redistributes the tax burden.
43:0933 and a third percent of the gmp going from taxes at this point really seems to get over and i think that's the way you as a general as a general rule local taxes the taxes leveled by local government are regressive as a general rule the taxes living by the federal governor progress yeah and the alternative is if you lose revenue sharing the only way
43:34and you just squeeze the property tax drive.
43:37We have been hammering this argument hard, but it's got to be translated into the average guy's tax bill.
43:44That's right.
43:45That's right.
43:46The other point I make is the only opposition... Let me see.
43:51Let me see about one page on that.
43:55And I'll submit every capital option.
43:57I've got a set of notes, and I'll feed it in to John.
44:03Again, the same argument.
44:08You lose revenue share because you have more property taxes.
44:15There's no other alternative.
44:15And also, the only opposition I've ever encountered to it is in Washington.
44:18It's nowhere else.
44:18It's just in Washington.
44:19Everybody else is for it, but Mills and all of the barons of the Congress and so on.
44:23Mills was on Meet the Press Sunday, and they said, why do you want to restrict cities?
44:32He says, I don't want to restrict cities.
44:35I just want to restrict the way cities can spend the money.
44:40They, they got doing pretty good on this whole, uh, on this whole, uh, tax business.
44:48Well, I'll get you something on that.
44:52Well, I'll just say that I might be able to cash something.
45:00Well, I'll tell you what you can do.
45:01The one guy that seems to have something, that of our writers, it's the best way to go for the jugglers, if you can.
45:07All right.
45:08And let me see what he says as to how it could be distributed.
45:13And I'll take a look at it, and we'll get it out and have everybody say the same thing.
45:19We've got to get that thing.
45:20We might make this the major thrust in Rochester.
45:24We'll do some research on Rochester property taxes and what they've been, and New York property taxes generally statewide, and focus right in on revenue sharing and property taxes up there.
45:36The only other issue I have with the insurance
45:42police force, isn't it?
45:47And the correct difficulty is that it's related only to the pay rates, right?
45:55Well, see, that's the fear because of Lindsey's experience.
45:58Everybody's watched Lindsey take all these additional reps. More and more pay for government employees and the local acceptance groups.
46:12Except for the police.
46:15Well, even in the instance of police in New York City, Lindsay's had such round heels with that police union that people just, you know, think they're throwing their money away.
46:30Well, I don't know.
46:30It's an interesting thing, though, John.
46:33These guys, county officers, they only have one department to run each one of them.
46:37Why are they so goddamn illiterate?
46:48Now, here let's say they raised a point that was not legitimate.
46:52Martin made a point that was not legitimate, was not backed up at 2,000 jobs and saving water.
46:56Robin made a point that had not been briefed out because it would have kicked up the, you said, the interest rates and so forth and so on.
47:02I got that.
47:02What's the matter?
47:04Well, they're all advocates.
47:05All right.
47:05And they're all constituents.
47:06He's not a nationalist.
47:08And this is the whole function in here, frankly, is to...
47:14This is the only place where there's an overall view.
47:20It's right in this room, and it's a pretty darn rough one.
47:22No one else is... What everyone else regards you as some sort of enemy that's trying to keep them from doing something they want to do.
47:29Yes.
47:29The idea...
47:30I understand they're being advocates, but my point is an advocate should be right on his facts, or he was wrong on his facts, right, John?
47:36uh so was martin was wrong in his facts and so was the wrong about that people should not be wrong well the best facts source of facts is george and cap and arnie shop over there and when we get up we get a paper in from martin who says i'm for saline water make 50 000 jobs and don rice goes to work on this and they dig into it and they say yes over a period of eight years
48:03You know, it's true, 50,000 jobs, but we just didn't ask the right question.
48:08When?
48:09And so... Can I ask one other thing on the Loki operation?
48:16You know he has a foxy staff, but is there anything that we can really do there in terms of... Well, there is enough money.
48:23There is a lot of money.
48:27He's got one pilot project, but they're building it out in the desert someplace.
48:37Well, here's a project now that ties to the thing Martin said.
48:43It appeals to me.
48:44It isn't Volpe's area.
48:46You know, he said, let's take one drainage basin and let's do a job on it.
48:50And I think that's valid.
48:51I guess John Connolly said that.
48:54We've been after the Potomac River.
48:56The only thing that's going to take this off the Potomac River is money.
49:01And it's going to create jobs.
49:04And so in this whole West Virginia, Maryland, this whole area, this whole drainage basin, runs clear up into Pennsylvania.
49:15Now, there's something where a lot of plans are already drawn.
49:20If we just block this off... Oh, yes.
49:27That's right.
49:28Over a period of five years.
49:32That's about a billion dollars a year for five years.
49:42The one thing that I'm always emphasizing in there is the worry about a tax increase.
49:57I just think that's the one thing we can't possibly propose.
50:00And I think that that's why I keep emphasizing that if we're going to start something new, fine, we've got to take something else down.
50:03Maybe you can't propose it, but maybe you can't face the fact that we...
50:10If it's an increase, I think it's just about impossible to sell people because of the total they're paying.
50:18Now, not just federal, but that's the big thing about revenue sharing.
50:22It doesn't require more.
50:23It shifts the total amount coming in to better areas.
50:24But if you have to go in in January of 72 and ask for more tax money because you can't stand the kind of deficits we're having,
50:31And that's where you get the ideological hand up with the conservatives, because we keep doing all the crappy stuff.
50:44And then add the other... That's the thing.
50:45I get it in all of the Republican or business-oriented speeches I make.
50:46They always say, what about this enormous deficit?
50:47What's that?
50:47So I told them about the alternatives and what they're going to get if they get some other government that is as worried as we are about it and all the rest.
51:00But if we have our fight with the Congress, if we have to go in and say in January, we're going to have to have more taxes, then I think we're very close to dead.
51:06We've got to have the jobs, but what we've got to do in order to get them, I think, is to stop doing some of the other things we're doing.
51:15Because in terms of getting the burdens away from the tax, the property tax, we've got to do something.
51:28The only way, that's a local tax, and we can't slide out by giving more people money locally in the home field.
51:34That's why the credit or something is this.
51:41city and county and everybody that doesn't have one now, but something that has a condition attached to it that in order to get federal funds you've got to lower your property tax is a very useful device.
51:54But anything that's identified as a tax increase, I think it's the other way around.
51:58Let's see if we can deal with the tax rate.
52:03Well, we've built into the property the revenue sharing formula.
52:06We've built in a set of four tax, the maintenance and tax, which I was rolling about.
52:12Well, did you notice what's happening up there now?
52:14The five mayors that were up there yesterday, Johnny Burns was pounding away on them.
52:19Your state taxes less than other states.
52:21Why should we help you when you fellows aren't taxing yourselves?
52:24And Stokes and all the rest of them had to admit that they were below the national average, that their cities are in trouble, their cities are not getting money, and of course one of the problems is that the state legislatures are not being responsive to their cities.
52:38It looks at it on how much he has to pay all three levels of care.
52:42Very good.
52:43And when he knows, as he knows now, that that's a third of his total income, perhaps add on the average a hell of a lot more for some, for our constituency, really, then he doesn't want any more.
53:02And he doesn't care how it's devised or anything else.
53:04The federal government says, we've got to have more money from you.
53:05We hope it will lower your local taxes.
53:06I hope you've got to have a clear-cut issue next time.
53:09indicating that we, some way or other, probably that we have a scheme whereby property taxes will come down.
53:20I don't know how that's going to come down.
53:21But that's why I'm always so reluctant on it.
53:22Well, there's been a change.
53:23It keeps forcing us into that.
53:24But we can cut some things.
53:27But they're all very miserable decisions.
53:30There's just no question about it.
53:30You can have Class A and Class B federal taxpayers.
53:33And everybody who's in a Class A state pays a different rate of federal income tax than everybody in a Class B state.
53:40And a Class A state's one where they've lowered their real estate tax.
53:53They like equal protection of the law.
53:55You're going in and meet the new board of directors.
53:58And you're going to say to them, fight George!
54:01New Board of Directors, you're a fine group.
54:04And tell me all about your troubles.
54:06And then you're going to sit there and listen for about 15 minutes and then tell them that you've got an international crisis that you've got to go and look at.
54:14If Opie's going to be there, I've told Krogh to tell him that the 30 minutes are not available and the entire meeting has to be disclosed at 15.
54:24That's right.
54:25And they will want to report to you on all their troubles and about how the Congress doesn't like them because they've cut out a lot of lines and all that stuff.
54:35But they're under, I hope he's under instructions that this is a 50- Oh, that guy, homebuilder, sat there for 40 minutes, read from, I didn't think he'd ever get through those sheets, like the next president, you know, from the yellow pad.
54:50Yep, yep.
54:50One after the other.
54:51Now, and another thing, Mr. President, I'd like to mention, and another thing, and another thing.
55:01When Frank got all that, he said, they finally get to the first thing, and we finally got to the last one.
55:06How about labor legislation?
55:06Yeah.
55:06Well, that was enough.
55:07We finished well.
55:07I don't know why we met with him, frankly.
55:09I guess it was for the purposes of what?
55:13And the same one.
55:14Marty's a businessman.
55:18He's useless.
55:19He's a swine, a bitch.
55:20there where the damn even the mayor got them.
55:26Let other people be with them.
55:29We've done that, particularly the big business types.
55:30That's a sad fact.
55:31Well, you know, you're coming into our friends.
55:32We'll see.
55:33Let me argue another side of that.
55:34I think you're coming into a campaign phase at this point where, in the same sense that you work a fence and you shake hands with a lot of people, you touch a few, you know, and everybody you touch
55:47That passes the word.
55:48Passes the word.
55:49He goes away and there's a multiplier.
55:51Let me say this.
55:53We've touched, for every voter, we've touched more business hands.
56:00About every time we turn around, I need some business.
56:06But this is a business administration.
56:07I know, I know, I know.
56:08If you were Lyndon Johnson, you'd have to see all the terrible labor leaders.
56:10Oh, I see them too.
56:10Well, but not quite as on the business side.
56:13We are, as I was talking about, we go over and over and over the same thing.
56:18I know.
56:18That's true.
56:19That's true.
56:22at some of the small businesses, some of the local businesses.
56:40God damn it, I've been through that business council thing and the same thing.
56:43Yeah, we see Harper and Weiner and all those guys.
56:44They're the strongest advocates of tough wage and price control in the country, and it's just time to see how... Oh, wage and price control is philosophical.
56:48And yet, when you come right down to it, you're going to want wage and price control.
56:49That's right.
56:51Yeah, the throwback.
57:13I don't know if I've made accomplishments like this on this room.
57:18Well, there isn't anybody in this room that'll argue with you that... Well, listen, who can I count on to get the meeting over with?
57:33Because I have no...
57:33I'll go in with you.
57:34I'll go in with you.
57:35I'll tell you.
57:35I'll tell you.
57:40I'll tell you.
57:41I'll tell you.
57:42I'll tell you.
57:44What the hell was the matter with that Airwest?
57:50Crack show there.
57:51Ran into an airplane.
57:51Yeah, that's another airplane.
57:52Who?
57:52Which?
57:52I don't know, but which is the wrong guy?
57:53Nobody seems to know.
57:55They were on a different path.
58:14They were away from cities or airports.
58:14They were in the rain.
58:15They were doing the right thing.
58:16I told them, I said, I have a question.
58:16I said, I have a question.
58:19It's a telephone or something.
58:31Yeah, I'm starting to get a little excited.
58:32It gives me the idea of doing something about this.
58:33So, I'm going to take it from here.
58:36And then I'm going to set it up.
58:36So, I'm going to pop this.
58:37It's going to get set.
58:37And then I'm going to pop it.
59:46I guess they're going to have to cross coverage of these attendees.
1:00:07We have done, I should say, on this Peterson congressional briefing, the Allen Amendment is going to be voted at 440, which poses a problem to help make one happen.
1:00:13The recommendation is that they move at 4.30 being to 5.15 and cancel a reception of us to follow up.
1:00:20I think he would simply open it at 5.15 and let Peterson carry it forward to conclusion.
1:00:27And he would conclude an Ascendance close to 6.30 as he can.
1:00:32The Queen's Garden Party, the British Embassy is tonight, and they've all been invited to that, so they'd be willing to go.
1:00:40The order is to shift the date, but it
1:00:41This is a good way to squeeze it, and if we're better off, at least we have.
1:00:52Maybe I'll just open it and stay, all right?
1:00:59Open it and stay.
1:01:00But I'll tell them that I have promised them, because I'm invited to the embassy, I have promised to return promptly at 6.30.
1:01:05The embassy is at 6 o'clock, but we can invite them to stay.
1:01:06If I invite them to stay, they can leave it out to the airline over there.
1:01:11Just say at 6.30.
1:01:32How the hell can he handle the breathing at that speed?
1:01:33Well, I don't know.
1:01:34But wait until he was done.
1:01:34Yeah.
1:01:34The other thing is we can move him to tomorrow.
1:01:35There's no way he's going to get any problems.
1:01:36It's almost like the weather.
1:01:37Yeah.
1:01:37Yeah, why bother?
1:01:37I don't know.
1:01:38The other thing we just learned is that President Johnson is coming into Washington today to go to a dinner tonight honoring Jake Pickles.
1:01:50Now, the night here and then going to New York tomorrow, I don't need to get a citizen's award for questions.
1:01:59What do you want to ask for breakfast?
1:02:01This is only, you know, nobody's recommending it.
1:02:02Where is he staying?
1:02:03He's staying in Madison.
1:02:04State of America.
1:02:26Do we keep the Madison suite, they say, the presidential suite there?
1:02:28Is that paid for by the government?
1:02:28It's supposed to be paid for by the government of Madison.
1:02:30Would you check?
1:02:30Yeah.
1:02:30Check.
1:02:30Johnson.
1:02:31That house is not
1:02:32their decorators and things around the damn place.
1:02:49Or just not do anything.
1:02:51He hasn't notified us of the trip or anything.
1:02:52I don't think we should.
1:02:53I think it's over.
1:02:54I've been down there.
1:02:55Yeah, well, that's it.
1:02:55He just did respond pretty well.
1:02:56He's very grateful.
1:02:56He really appreciated that, as you've seen from his letter.
1:03:00You're a superb doctor.
1:03:01Did you see that one thank you letter?
1:03:02from him where he just came in.
1:03:12He concludes by how much it meant to him for you to be there, and he said he hopes that perhaps someday you'll be able to throw him around the Nixon Library.
1:03:28They really have, and each one of us, what the hell it is, because you can't do it alone, so I'll be making a list.
1:03:41I was going to ask you one thing.
1:04:00With regard to the press conference, you had the
1:04:16of the approval, that state was penalty 31.
1:04:22Is that partially what the others are?
1:04:25Or is that a little lower?
1:04:28Is that, that's a fair, excellent rating, isn't it, on that?
1:04:34Somewhat favorable?
1:04:34No, it's not fair.
1:04:36It's fairly favorable, somewhat favorable, somewhat unfavorable, very unfavorable.
1:04:42Now, what would you attribute that to, I suppose, just in general?
1:04:46We're essentially at five or six points lower than the others.
1:04:59Also, another point, and this is very rare, is the way I've been asking for questions.
1:05:03That's right.
1:05:03We didn't ask it.
1:05:04The others we asked right afterwards.
1:05:06You asked right afterwards, I think, to get a higher rating.
1:05:12I don't think you should doubt that.
1:05:12Well, we know that.
1:05:13This is a very meaningful question to both people.
1:05:15There you go.
1:05:16Because it, uh, maybe we shouldn't bother asking.
1:05:31Well, Steve suggested that we should.
1:05:34Why don't we drop it off at the end of this?
1:05:35I wonder if it does mean much.
1:05:36Just, uh, what the hell are you going to say?
1:05:39If I had to put out, I was going to suggest that you put out.
1:05:41I think the Romanian research ought to put out publicly their marijuana collection.
1:05:42I'd just like to build up a little public sympathy.
1:05:43What do you think?
1:05:44What do you think so?
1:05:46Just that by itself.
1:05:54Nothing else you can put on?
1:05:55We've already had our demonstrations, so that's that.
1:05:57I wouldn't put that on.
1:05:57I'd put out the marijuana.
1:06:02Well, see, that's the problem.
1:06:16They don't put it in terms of the president.
1:06:17Oh, you have to because of the president.
1:06:18That's true.
1:06:18It's a good idea to put out a down-to-earth reaction to the president.
1:06:20I don't want that.
1:06:20Oh, I see.
1:06:20Then there's a proven fact that some try to get it so that we can't have a... We can ask a straight question.
1:06:23Do you have faith in globalization and all that stuff?
1:06:24Yes, sir.
1:06:24Put that in the next poll.
1:06:32Generally speaking, I feel that we're going there.
1:06:56Were you able to pass on to the Scali history of the business on the lack of awareness of salt?
1:06:59I told Scali, Scali is the important one here.
1:07:00So he was, uh, was Anderson's brother.
1:07:24Yeah.
1:07:24Sure.
1:07:24Sure.
1:07:24Well, I'll tell you.
1:07:25I'll tell you about it.
1:07:25I think I'm going to bring you to talk to Scali about it, please.
1:07:27Yeah.
1:07:27Oh, how are you?
1:07:27Good to see you.
1:07:27Good to see you, too.
1:07:30Well, we thought that since we've had everybody else's views on the economy, as George knows very well,
1:07:58So he said, well, you're going to be in town, and I thought you should give us a few views.
1:08:16He began by saying that, as you can imagine, we have... Would you prefer tea or coffee?
1:08:21Partially cold.
1:08:21We have everything, if you like, cold, but...
1:08:26The problem that we have with our economy is that it will become increasingly heavy in the next few months.
1:08:52It's a tendency to sway by all.
1:08:54one end of the pendulum and the other, where one day everything is great and the other day it's gone to hell.
1:09:15And then to do things because of those attitudes, either not to do things or to do things.
1:09:17In March, there seemed to be a rather considerable wave of optimism.
1:09:19Everybody likes everybody like a bunch of cattle.
1:09:20And then in April and May, perhaps as a result of the international monetary thing, which shouldn't have had that much of an effect on its average, people received quite a few
1:09:24They say, well, maybe we've got to change our policies.
1:09:43The Congress is reacting by passing a huge public works ruling on them.
1:09:44And others are suggesting that, of course, the businessmen are doing real stupidity or they're waiving price controls.
1:09:48But when you ask them, what do you mean if you're giving price, oh, no, no, not profits, just wage controls, right?
1:09:51Well, the first one's a wage price board.
1:10:11Income policy, as he puts it.
1:10:11And the real question is, as you sit out there in either the towers of the University of Chicago or look over at these lecture halls, is there anything to change the plan?
1:10:17Or whether ups and downs and zigs and zags and so forth, we should stay on our course.
1:10:19That's what George calls our steady as you go.
1:10:20But let me try to put it in a broader context by saying, first, that, of course, it would be interesting to hear your own evaluation of where we are.
1:10:44Second, in terms of what we do, we have to realize that, as I tried to emphasize to what would happen if we weren't here.
1:10:48You know, what anybody else would do to you.
1:10:49Well, that's not what we're talking about.
1:10:50and how you're going to get it done and so forth.
1:11:00But that's what I'm saying.
1:11:03Basically, I think perhaps we're really interested in the facts, but also we have to realize, I remember the letter you wrote several months ago, almost a year ago, where you said don't throw away 1972 by trying to do something about 70.
1:11:13And of course, we didn't do an LOI on 70.
1:11:33Now, we have to realize that while the sun wants to be real brave, save the dollar and stop inflation and so forth, be a real statesman.
1:11:39And if we fail, if we fail in terms of the voters in 72, forget the dollar.
1:11:44and forget the free American economy gets finished.
1:11:51That's my political judgment.
1:11:54That I'm an expert on.
1:11:55I know what these other guys would do.
1:11:57Hubert would do it.
1:11:57Muskie would do it.
1:11:58Teddy would, because their constituencies are all on the left.
1:12:02Steven Spielberg, Jackson, because, well, he's on the right in terms
1:12:06policy, his constituency is so elated.
1:12:18So that's where we are.
1:12:20So you really, what we're really talking about now is sort of a moment of truth in regard to what decisions, what changes and decisions of any should be made in order to have the economy look reasonably good.
1:12:30I'll recognize you.
1:12:31We've got to continue to have some inflation, quite a bit.
1:12:32And we're going to continue to have a lot of money in life, but we've got to have a lot of money.
1:12:35certainly better in one field or the other, or particularly the unemployment field by next year.
1:12:48So there you are.
1:12:49Is that your problem for the day?
1:12:50Well, Mr. President, as of three months ago, I would have answered it more optimistically than I will today.
1:13:00And that's not because of the administration's policy, but because of the federal law on the horizon, as I say.
1:13:03If you put that to one side, so far as the economy as a whole is concerned, it's
1:13:05Now, if you want to hang around before you leave Archer, by the aberrations, you mean the ups and downs?
1:13:27The ups.
1:13:27You have had an explosion of pressure.
1:13:28It's an unprecedented situation.
1:13:29Don't convince Archer that he ought to raise interest rates and all that sort of thing, because Archer is the
1:13:34do all those things, and they're not going to crack this forward and knock the housing market up.
1:13:51There's no way, and that's why I say I'm not optimistic, because you cannot avoid rising interest rates in the next six months.
1:13:55There's no way you can do it.
1:13:55If you try to avoid rising interest rates by pouring in so much money in the short term to hold them down, you will stimulate a price inflation that will raise them back up again.
1:13:59We're in danger of repeating the mistakes which they made in 1967 and 68.
1:14:01Well, in trying to hold down interest rates, they actually managed to.
1:14:13And so I think you must suppose that there's any real possibility of not having a rise in interest rates in the next six months.
1:14:17Certainly on the short term, the short rates, they're definitely going to go up.
1:14:20The long rates, there's a little bit more hope that they will be moderate.
1:14:25But the prognosis on interest rates is not good.
1:14:37On the economy as a whole, the prognosis is very good.
1:14:42Because you've got an awful lot of steam in the boiler and it's pushing to get out.
1:14:45When you pour money at the top of the system, it's got to come out somewhere.
1:14:47But it takes some time for it to work its way through.
1:14:48And you will recall that
1:14:51If I may take you back by the way, from the fall of 69, lots of people were saying, well, look, we've slowed down the money supply.
1:15:10Prices are rising like mad.
1:15:11We haven't done enough.
1:15:11We've got to do more.
1:15:12And some of us were saying, hold your horses.
1:15:12You've done, if anything, too much.
1:15:13It'll come out of the recession in 70.
1:15:14That's what happened.
1:15:14In the same way, beginning in early 70, you started to afford more fueling.
1:15:16And it was clear by the end of 1970, by December of last year, when I talked to you the last time,
1:15:19It was clear then that the recession was going to be over and an expansion was in process.
1:15:40As a result, what had already been done.
1:15:41That's working its way through.
1:15:41Oh yes, I don't think there's any doubt.
1:15:42No, no.
1:15:42A large part of the size of getting the first parents is undoubtedly influenced by the recovery from GM.
1:15:45But even if you try to allow for that, if you take into account the marriage, of course,
1:15:49I think if you ask a group of people foolish questions, there's only one kind of answer you get.
1:16:17If I look at the statistics, the records of what people are doing,
1:16:19In every area, almost without exception, you have a pretty clear sign that the recession came to an end about November of last year.
1:16:37This trade, in fact, concealed the fact that the recession was coming to an end and the turn-up was coming.
1:16:40The first quarter was a much greater rise because of the reaction to the GM strike than you would have had, but even if you could get over that, it was still pretty good.
1:16:44The third and fourth quarter will again be confused by the
1:16:46anticipation for the steel business.
1:16:54If they're taking the two together, they will be good for it.
1:17:05If it weren't for the money problem, I would say that your forecast made it that good.
1:17:10That would be an excellent forecast, and there's no reason to back it up on it if we can get down out of this monetary explosion without causing too much damage in the process.
1:17:15Now, one point about this.
1:17:16with respect to interest rates.
1:17:27Interest rates are in large part a consequence of what happens and not a cause.
1:17:39If people are engaging in a lot of housing construction, that tends to drive interest rates.
1:17:41If the government is borrowing a lot, as we shall be doing, that tends to drive interest rates.
1:17:43If, on the other hand, the demand is weak, as, for example, there are the recent reports about land and equipment expenditures being weak, that's weak.
1:17:46From this point of view, I regard it as a good thing, because it takes some of the pressure off of the industry.
1:18:04And I think that it is, from the long-run point of view, a serious mistake to think that we can manipulate the industries as a cause of what's going to happen, rather than accept what happens to them as a consequence of the demands on the part of housing, industry for investment, and the government for financing.
1:18:18or in public works.
1:18:25Oh, it's a very bad thing to do all around.
1:18:29We've done it again.
1:18:30The problem is that most mistakes in economic policy in the last 50 years is that the following.
1:18:39I'm studying it.
1:18:39Reflect, figure it out for what's already in the works and acting on the basis of today instead of on what's going to be the case tomorrow.
1:18:46A fae has had this tendency to swim from one side to the other, and so has a girder.
1:19:02Because right now conditions are bad and you think you have to shove stuff in, but by the time that fae, you're already on the other.
1:19:06Great.
1:19:06And what it does is to give you two rapid, two vigorous interactions with itself, who are then driven to go in the other direction.
1:19:11Now I think the problem now is that there's too much steam in the body, not too little.
1:19:14And the great danger...
1:19:15Yes?
1:19:15The great danger is that you're going to have a resumption.
1:19:33Unfortunately, let me go back, let me look at the inflation side.
1:19:34It's very, very well on the cost of living.
1:19:35But that's partly spurious.
1:19:37But even if we allow for it, it's spurious because of the way they handle housing and everything.
1:19:41But even if we allow for that, if we look at all the price increases, there clearly has been a definite taper off of the price.
1:19:43It's come down from a peak of somewhere around 67 to 100.
1:19:45because it makes four, four and a half.
1:20:06The wholesale prices, the cost of living, the cost of living.
1:20:08That's exactly what you'd expect if indeed there's too much state in the blood rather than too much.
1:20:10I don't think about politics, but it does seem to me that nothing could be more damaging to you in 1972.
1:20:13If the price rise in 1972 is back up to 7%, I think in general, unemployment is much more damaging than political inflation in place.
1:20:29Yeah, it is.
1:20:30When in particular case, yes, people want it.
1:20:32When inflation, they fish it out, but they, when it's unemployment, it scares them, and they react with fright.
1:20:34But in the particular case of your administration and yourself, I think it's even, well, I would be co-honest.
1:20:38We took expert measures and worked with our leaders to do something about it.
1:20:58And now it must pay off.
1:20:58We're in a position where it looks as if that was all for nothing.
1:21:00But one other thing that ought to be taken into account in the amount of crimes in yellow, and that is, who is doing the crime in yellow?
1:21:02It's more of that, more stationary measures.
1:21:03It's mostly the Democratic economists and politicians.
1:21:04Do they want it?
1:21:05In order to improve it?
1:21:17Right.
1:21:20Do they want it in order to improve your chances of getting elected?
1:21:25They wanted to create it.
1:21:26Oh, I think you're...
1:21:26Someone wanted to create an issue.
1:21:27Someone may want us to do the wrong thing.
1:21:28I think you're not giving them enough credit.
1:21:29They want it.
1:21:29They wanted to create an inflation in 1972, which will be... Issue after issue, in effect.
1:21:31Here's the mistake we made.
1:21:32You should go make the same mistake.
1:21:33Right.
1:21:33Whether it's waste, price, or worth, or too much saving the blood, or whatever it is,
1:21:35Well, I was fascinated, Mr. President.
1:21:47You're not so concerned about what's going on in Washington, D.C. You're not so concerned about what's going on in Washington, D.C. You're not so concerned about what's going on in Washington, D.C. You're not so concerned about what's going on in Washington, D.C. You're not so concerned about what's going on in Washington, D.C. You're not so concerned about what's going on in Washington, D.C.
1:22:03I did a lot of use of it.
1:22:09You were fascinated by it.
1:22:12I was going to say, I was fascinated by an experience in 1969, shortly after your election, when we had one of these meetings over at the Fed, like we're going to have tomorrow.
1:22:23And as we mentioned before, I had to be the hawk so far as policy was concerned.
1:22:25He was saying, well, now the way to stop this inflation is really to step on it.
1:22:27Well, if you create a lot of unemployment, you create a lot of unemployment.
1:22:29But that's the only way to solve it.
1:22:32Now, he never would have said that if Mr. Humphrey had been elected.
1:22:49And now, my interpretation after the event is that, to begin with, the ideal thing for the Democrats would be for you to create a big recession that would really break the inflationary spiral so they can make you unpopular enough so they can come in and then they'd be in a wonderful position where inflation would have been done.
1:22:58And now, in the near past, when they discovered that that wasn't going to work,
1:23:02that you weren't going to fall for it, and our policy wouldn't have been produced.
1:23:20And now the question is, what's the second best policy?
1:23:24The second best is to produce a severe inflation of such a kind as to say we went through this for nothing.
1:23:27Now, I really don't want to put...
1:23:28I understand.
1:23:28I could be right, but let me... Let me come back to your feeling about the economy.
1:23:30So let me...
1:23:33Take housing.
1:23:37How do we keep housing?
1:23:44I mean, you say the interest rates, you just got to let them go up.
1:23:49But we just can't get the housing boom.
1:23:51That's about the one thing that creates quick jobs.
1:23:53But part of the reason why interest rates are under pressure is because of the housing boom.
1:24:01Because the housing boom is so large.
1:24:01In general, there have been two ways in which people have analyzed economic prospects.
1:24:03is to take each area separately, like housing, employment bills, investment, see what you can expect in each one, and add them up and get a total.
1:24:19And another way is to go from the top down and say, you put in a certain amount of money, you put in certain fiscal pressure, that's going to produce a grand total.
1:24:27And how will it be divided up among the various parts?
1:24:29And over the past 10 years or more, you've had a lot of work done on both of these approaches.
1:24:31And there's no doubt that the approach which starts from the top and goes down has just outperformed by a very large margin the approach which goes from the pieces and pulling them up.
1:24:48And that's why I'm inclined to look at it from the top down and not from the bottom up and to say, well, if the housing boom were to taper off a little, that would reduce the pressure on it.
1:24:56That would make interest rates lower than they otherwise would be, and it would encourage business planning equipment.
1:25:10It would encourage inventory housing.
1:25:11It might encourage consumers to buy other durable goods.
1:25:14So that I think the problem is not how do you keep the housing boom going, but how do you get the right amount of overall pressure so that it will come out in one or another of these places.
1:25:21The trouble with trying to keep the interest rates down
1:25:24by policy is that there's only one way to do it in the short run, and that's by pouring out money.
1:25:40It will only work for about six months.
1:25:41And then it starts to raise the interest rates.
1:25:44The problem, the reason interest rates are such a tricky policy tool is because what you do in the short run is lower regularism in the long run.
1:25:49If you want to lower them in the long run, you have to do something in the short run that would have the opposite effect.
1:25:52For example, if we look now, not at 1971, but at 1972, the pressure there is to keep interest rates down for the rest of this year, the higher they will be in 72.
1:26:13If I may take you back, what happened in 1967 and 68?
1:26:14The Fed increased the money supply rapidly in 67 to try to hold down interest rates, and then interest rates shot up in 68.
1:26:21Sure, it increased.
1:26:21Yeah.
1:26:22Well, I think maybe we have to subsidize the interest rates.
1:26:35You can't get legislation.
1:26:37Well, we had legislation through that gives us a chance to do that, and we basically kind of inactivated some of it in the budget because the interest rates have gotten below, actually, the level at which the subsidy... That would be the other way to handle it.
1:26:48You could do that if you wanted to.
1:26:48I think the point Bill makes is the same one that
1:26:51that I was making at the time of the argument over the GNP, and I was going to happen to it, namely that the people who try to estimate the economic rise by examining all the pieces and trying to figure out how much each piece was going to go up have consistently underestimated the strength of the economy.
1:27:17And you sort of have to...
1:27:18I mean, let the things fall out the way you want them.
1:27:20Accounting does have...
1:27:22I think has a natural starring role because there is such a natural demand for it.
1:27:41From our standpoint, looking at the offshoots from it, it's very attractive because if you upset many times once you get the house done, you have to put some stuff in it.
1:27:44Let me ask you one other thing on that before I consider that because this is in order to keep the housing thing from being net at this point.
1:27:47It's very important to see what we can do.
1:28:04I mentioned it to John earlier.
1:28:05John, anyway, whatever the case is, why can't we consider the other role?
1:28:08I mean, I don't know.
1:28:08Do you see what I mean?
1:28:09If you're going to, rather than trying to take the shorter route, I can say, you know, it's fine if you go the shorter route way.
1:28:14You may keep getting those grades down for six months and then raise them when we want them.
1:28:17On the other hand, I think we're at a rather critical time in terms of confidence, and that's what our interview is telling us tonight.
1:28:37The problem is we don't have anything else but confidence.
1:28:38We've got to reestablish confidence.
1:28:40And I say the way to reestablish is to have a wage price board.
1:28:42And I don't know, I guess somebody makes a speech.
1:28:43But nevertheless, I do not agree with that, because in my place, I go by some confidences.
1:28:45all the damn talk in the world about how things are going are going to make people less confident.
1:29:00They say, well, those clowns know things are, people are going to react to, you know, other forces, and that's, that's what they're going to take care of.
1:29:07But on this particular point, is that not the lesson of the two evils?
1:29:09Recognize you can many are quoting the subsidy altogether.
1:29:10The lesson of the two evils is to let the interest rates move up and then
1:29:14when you're such a leader to keep the housing thing going.
1:29:26And certainly to the extent that that blends itself to more confidence in a reasonable monetary policy, that's a good result in itself.
1:29:31I think the thing that terrifies me about the Federal Reserve
1:29:33is erratic.
1:29:51That they'll get so struck by Milton's advice, or other people's advice, that they'll decide that the thing that they have to do is to get this big cut-off on-wise.
1:29:54You know, we've talked on-wise drives.
1:29:55They'd better just cut it all off and then just rest all day.
1:29:56They did.
1:29:56Arthur extended the beat since he was not this way before when he is now.
1:30:01Extremely erratic.
1:30:01Hell, he was a total...
1:30:04a total optimist a few months ago, and now he's a total pessimist.
1:30:17Really?
1:30:17Well, because he's been already here.
1:30:21Oh, he's been here.
1:30:21Well, they're like the stock market people.
1:30:22And I'm going to work, and we should pay attention, because it's why 11% of the GNP wags the tail of 89%, which we represent, we and our friends.
1:30:31That's a hell of a note.
1:30:32These international...
1:30:33That's what they are.
1:30:34You know, vampires sucking the blood out of every transaction.
1:30:38They want a stability bond.
1:30:40They make money, fortunes.
1:30:42But the monetary crisis, the international crisis, was the best thing that could happen.
1:30:47It was a fine thing.
1:30:48I wasn't a vet.
1:30:51We need another one.
1:30:57If we could only stimulate another one over, then yeah, everything will be in fine shape.
1:31:00Because it means that we can stall Barbara a little.
1:31:04Yes, and because it eliminates, if they'll only float their roots, it eliminates this problem of these large afro movements going from one place to another.
1:31:09They only move because they have a sure thing, as long as rates are fixed.
1:31:11Let rates vary.
1:31:12And then it costs them something to speculate.
1:31:16There's a big policy debate going on about flexible exchange rates.
1:31:33Flexible exchange rates have been on the losing end of all the banks.
1:31:38Treasury people all want fixed exchange rates.
1:31:41It's a blessing that we have to send a promise to cover their dead bodies.
1:31:43Oh, sure.
1:31:51They said the market was going to be a bigger place.
1:32:00Thank you, Mike.
1:32:00President, I'd be interested in your comments on the capital control program.
1:32:02I noticed one of your sheets that I got you put a question mark, sorry.
1:32:03Let me go back a moment.
1:32:04I'll go on the housing problem.
1:32:04I think there's a danger in these areas as there is an economy as a whole.
1:32:07of listening too much to the people who are going back and forth.
1:32:22The housing boom was off.
1:32:25I don't believe you're going to nip it in the bud by half upon your eyes.
1:32:27Do you think it is on?
1:32:28I think it is on.
1:32:29Off?
1:32:29Off.
1:32:29The housing boom was off and running.
1:32:30Oh!
1:32:30Not that it's still going.
1:32:30Quite the opposite.
1:32:31One of the things that we've learned from the past, I think, is that once you get one of these movements going, they keep going.
1:32:34They don't suddenly cut off.
1:32:35You've got a housing boom started.
1:32:36You're going to have a housing boom.
1:32:46It isn't going to take a drastic measure, I believe, to keep it going.
1:32:54Now, as an aside, the measure you could take to keep the housing boom going is unfortunately 21.
1:32:58That would be to eliminate Davis-Bacon.
1:32:59That would help more to keep the housing boom going than the subsidy on interest rates because the cost of the labor involved is far more important
1:33:04and the cost of the interest rate and the interest cost.
1:33:20I realize all that, so I was saying, I know.
1:33:24You don't write that.
1:33:25I know, I'm going on terror.
1:33:26Well, you were very brave to cut that data straight, and I wish you had kept it off instead of going into these dark construction boards.
1:33:29Well, we've made some progress there, though.
1:33:30You ought to talk to Jim Hodgson.
1:33:31You know they have made some.
1:33:31Instead of 16%, at least the dance elements are down 12-baths on that.
1:33:33Well, some of the more recent settlements have been in the 6th to 7th.
1:33:466th to 7th recent ones.
1:33:47Well, that... And incidentally, there are...
1:33:52I'll make the point of...
1:33:53Mainly by the market place, but anyway, it's... Well, that's all right for the show now.
1:33:55Yeah, three to four years.
1:33:56But coming on, the economy generally, you're that, what you say, the federal.
1:33:59But I don't... Don't get Archer too... Don't... Let me put it this way.
1:34:00He... Archer has got to have more basic...
1:34:02You know, he's a very intelligent man, and he's an enormous improvement over his predecessor, Martin.
1:34:08Because I think he knows a hell of a lot of hell about it.
1:34:19And he's a great friend of mine.
1:34:21But the thing is that Arthur's over there buffeted by these banners.
1:34:25And they're the dumbest bunch of bastards there are.
1:34:26Those selfish people.
1:34:27You know that.
1:34:27That's true.
1:34:28The spot market crowd.
1:34:28I know them all.
1:34:29I know them all.
1:34:29And everybody says they're our political supporters.
1:34:31Balls.
1:34:32They support whoever's in.
1:34:34But that's the way it is.
1:34:40I don't care about it.
1:34:43My main point is, don't get Archer into a position where he reacts too much to what you say.
1:34:49Tell him to cool it.
1:34:49You see, Mike, you don't sit in these quadriathletes.
1:34:55Boy, they're hairy sessions, right?
1:34:58Well, some of the discussion is hair-raising.
1:34:59That's what we should do, by the way.
1:35:00See, you see what I mean?
1:35:00No, but what I mean is, if you could tell Archer the main thing,
1:35:02to have stability at the Fed and so forth, but don't have him come in and say, well, not that, because if you influence him, because he'll play to his own privileges, from what he's heard from Hayes and some of the other jackasses on there, he might crash it right now.
1:35:23We must do that.
1:35:23That'd be a mistake, too, wouldn't it?
1:35:25Or would it?
1:35:25Well, you don't think so, huh?
1:35:25No, I don't.
1:35:26You want a flat money supply, don't you?
1:35:27No.
1:35:27Or can't we?
1:35:45Or can't we?
1:35:45Let's take a deep breath and say, let us get mine a reasonable and sustainable, steady growth path and stay there.
1:35:48But that depends on, the problem is... That's what I've been for all along.
1:35:50They were on it until January.
1:35:51That's what's so annoying.
1:35:51There's no reason in God's name...
1:35:58It's seldom possible to correct it without some cost.
1:36:11The Fed has made a mistake.
1:36:13And now, I think it would be a mistake to go too far back in the other direction, but you've got to go farther back, I think, for a second figure, than was the necessary before.
1:36:20Let me give you the numbers.
1:36:21If you were to go back on a 6% growth path of money from December of last year to December of this year, you have to go at 2% from now to the end of the year.
1:36:25That's because how rapidly they can go even with that formula.
1:36:43Now, I don't believe that that's desirable.
1:36:44I think we've got to fight some of the inflationary implications of what you've done.
1:36:45But I think you cannot go back on the 6% roadmap now.
1:36:47At this stage, I think you've got to come back some way or part of the way.
1:36:49They had a gigantic decline in money supply.
1:36:50Exactly.
1:36:51Paul, that probably has something to do with some of these attitudes that you saw.
1:37:10But so far as the attitudes of people are concerned, the worst problem at the moment in the financial community is that there's a universal expectation that inflation is not going to result.
1:37:16You will find that all over the world.
1:37:16The capital controls businessmen.
1:37:17Oh, yes, we got it.
1:37:23We got it.
1:37:25They served no function for us.
1:37:26They are harmful to us.
1:37:28Oh, no, they are.
1:37:29Oh, it's happening.
1:37:30I said it was good.
1:37:31But in addition...
1:37:32They are a reason for the strength of the euro-dollar market, which has been bothering everybody.
1:37:48We, this U.S., did more than anybody else to create the euro-dollar market.
1:37:52And we did it by making New York a bad place in which to finance internationally because of regulation of the ceiling on interest rates that could be paid on the bank time deposit and because of the controls on lending by banks and investment by American enterprises.
1:38:01And the way for
1:38:01American and other multinational enterprises to get out of those controls is to do their operations through money.
1:38:19So an additional reason at the moment why I believe it would be highly desirable to get rid of capital controls is because that would tend to dampen off the appeal of the euro-dollar market and would therefore be offset to some extent by declining that market.
1:38:27Those controls are counterproductive.
1:38:28They do us no good anyway.
1:38:29And I really think it's a shame we didn't get rid of him the day you came in.
1:38:42Arthur was for it then.
1:38:45Of course, he was a favorite of getting rid of him.
1:38:47You don't consider, our friends in the business community wouldn't consider that to be inflationary, would they?
1:38:50The capital control.
1:38:54They would be concerned about it unless it were addressed properly, about its effect on the balance of payments.
1:39:08But they would not consider that inflationary.
1:39:10No.
1:39:10Balance of payments, yeah.
1:39:11But on the whole, let me go back to my name.
1:39:12I don't want to overemphasize the problem.
1:39:13On the whole, our situation is marked.
1:39:14That's why it's so darn annoying to have it spoiled by this money apparatus.
1:39:17As of January and February, I would say, you couldn't ask for anything more.
1:39:19We're on an upward pass with the economy at a slow enough rate so it won't start the inflation up again, but at a fast enough rate so you don't have the unemployment coming down, the shock rate is going to be 10.
1:39:43And that's why I say the only flaw I see in your prediction, in your forecast, is this modification.
1:39:46And then the other danger is the danger of listening to all the voices of global doom and getting...
1:39:48and getting diverted from what I think has been an admirable past, steady policy, and not wandering too far in either direction.
1:40:08You wouldn't change the policy?
1:40:09I certainly would not change it.
1:40:09You wouldn't go for a tax relief, what others say, let's, of course, have a mix of spending programs.
1:40:14And the third thing is to have some controls, and that's about it.
1:40:16And foreign people say, name a speech.
1:40:17I don't think any of them are worth a damn.
1:40:18Well, I think one of the strategies is to put things up in a super-inflationary way and then put controls on it.
1:40:34And then you'd have the problem, both of the inflation and all of the alliances, problems that go with trying to enforce a big set of controls next year.
1:40:42That's another trap that seems to be...
1:40:45In general.
1:40:46I must say, in general, it's... No.
1:40:52Of course they're going to work.
1:41:06They aren't going to work.
1:41:08They never have.
1:41:09But I have always been in favor of tax reduction under any and all circumstances for any reason.
1:41:12This is the only way to get the size of government spending covered.
1:41:13That probably makes sense too.
1:41:14But I could and cannot say from a cyclical point of view there's no justification for tax reduction at all.
1:41:16The deficit as it is is going to be too large, not too small.
1:41:18You don't need it.
1:41:22You've got the steam in the boiler.
1:41:33The economy is on the way up, and the problem is not to let it go too fast.
1:41:38That's an external statement.
1:41:39You're being on the way up, but some of these businessmen are taking the business and coming in crying, fucking full of tears, like all they used to say.
1:41:43He's on four boards, and all these people are cutting back on that plant and equipment.
1:41:45So what?
1:41:45Is that concerning?
1:41:46No.
1:41:46Why not?
1:41:46Because in the first place, as soon as business picks up, they'll change their mind.
1:41:48And the sample price, at the moment, I'm delighted I haven't cut back on trying to quit until it takes some of the pressure off the industry.
1:42:02The time you want them better, the way business will pick up, of course, is sooner or later.
1:42:06And they have to give the economy a hell of a lot of good.
1:42:09The most bullish statistics of all are the statistics on what's been happening to retail sales.
1:42:31I noticed the apartment sale in the big chain, Sears, had a year-over-year about 7.5% rise.
1:42:35And even these surveys at Consumer Center, which I get very awake to, if anything, they've been showing results.
1:42:56So I think you have to, the great thing you've been able to do, Mr. President, is to take a long view and not let yourself get buffeted back and forth from week to week.
1:43:01And I think that's the right thing to do at the moment, this technology.
1:43:04Is there any way that art can be satisfied with this wage price that they have?
1:43:23You know, they talk about their own job and all the rest of it.
1:43:26I've had only one suggestion along those lines, and that is, for things like the steel industry, and that is that the correct answer to the argument that artists and others make in our escalator process is that
1:43:34plant and steal people to negotiate.
1:43:51And they will make money-wage contracts that embed in them a higher degree of inflation than we will actually have.
1:43:54And therefore, after the event, they will turn out to be too high.
1:43:55And this will put them into difficulties.
1:43:56This requires the real wage rates to be high and will force them to raise prices.
1:43:58Now, the answer to that, logically, is to separate the real bargaining from the nominal wage bargaining.
1:44:01to say to the steel people, okay, you have an escalator clause.
1:44:14Make your contract in real terms.
1:44:15Then if prices go up by 2%, we'll be ready to go in real terms.
1:44:17If I may go back, the General Motors contract, which was widely castigated as inflationary, was not, in my opinion, inflationary in the slightest.
1:44:24Most of that increase arose because the prior contract did not have an escalator clause in it.
1:44:28The great bulk of the first year improvement increase in the GM contract was making up
1:44:31for the fact that in the past two years, they've been underpaying the workers.
1:44:41And they actually have, what is it, a 2.5% productivity increase, a 3% productivity increase, but then they have full escalated loss protection.
1:44:49And I think that's a very good model, and in a way, it solves the kind of problem that Arthur is speaking of.
1:44:51It doesn't have the dramatic impact of a wage and price war, and it wouldn't solve it on that channel.
1:44:59We've been suggesting that more or less with the steel people, but I think it's something...
1:45:01do it quite quietly, because the union is won, and companies have historically resisted it.
1:45:15And that means that in the firing, the companies can get something for it.
1:45:17So we must give it away, but that's the way to do it.
1:45:23Thank you, Mr.
1:45:38Senator.
1:45:39Hello, George.
1:45:39Oh, no, I haven't done it.
1:45:39We have a little game I'm going to show you.
1:45:41I'm going to give these to people with an admonition.
1:45:42This is the first time I've seen paper.
1:45:43Yeah, right.
1:45:43It's small because I don't believe in a hell of a lot of paper around there.
1:45:45The paper in your desk can't be held up that way.
1:45:46Get rid of the paper.
1:45:47Oh, that's, uh, that's not advice for good.
1:46:03The slide desk is always in the public's good favor.
1:46:04Now, one of the, one of the, one of the stressors, uh, is copy that picture they took here.
1:46:06Oh, yeah, let's mention that.
1:46:07Yeah.
1:46:07And, uh, George, would you mention that, too?
1:46:08Well, they did do it in my full, uh, I mean, I'll, I'll, uh, get a load of that gun right then sometime and get you to sign it.
1:46:10I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll.
1:46:14A copy of the picture that our partners took by Ronald Reagan and all that.
1:46:21It's great history.
1:46:21It's great history.
1:46:22And we'll be ready in three or four days.
1:46:41I just want to make sure it gets associated.
1:46:42I love him.
1:46:42He's my boss.
1:46:43He's my assistant.
1:46:43I'll let Arthur go too far.
1:46:44I don't think I have that much control over you.
1:46:45You have.
1:46:45You mark your name.
1:46:46It depends on how you hit the man at a certain time.
1:46:47You see, you're very persuasive.
1:46:48In fact, the moment you go in, you speak confidently.
1:46:49If Arthur's leaning in a certain direction, he says, I better go.
1:46:51He hasn't yet.
1:46:51It depends if you were in the other direction.
1:47:07He's a very intelligent man.
1:47:08He wouldn't move him.
1:47:09But when a man's already leaning in a way and persuasive, that's the arm's effect.
1:47:11Now, Arthur's a tough one to persuade.
1:47:12I don't know how he wins.
1:47:12I don't know how he does that.
1:47:13He works with our experts.
1:47:13We're all in the boat.
1:47:14We're all in the bank together.
1:47:14Holy shit!
1:47:15Thank you.
1:47:41I'm not going to bother reading about this.
1:48:00All right, so now I just have to tell you a little bit about this.
1:48:02This is going to be very, very, very personal.
1:48:03That's the only thing I want to bring to your attention.
1:48:04Two things.
1:48:04Congressman from D.L.
1:48:04Democrat, New Jersey.
1:48:05This is what this comes in.
1:48:05He's written down the two lines that you've written.
1:48:07In your remarks, you have explained that it's a must to be supposed to be a Republican.
1:48:08Do you like it?
1:48:09Well, we'll walk it out to you, sir.
1:48:09Yeah.
1:48:10All right.
1:48:10I'll be here.
1:48:10Yes, sir.
1:48:13Thank you, sir.
1:48:18Well, shall we walk out and read our grant of time this morning?
1:48:23Our use, as they are told, is incredible.
1:48:57We'll work it out if you can.
1:49:09If you can't, it's okay.
1:49:09I'll leave it at that.
1:49:38Mr. President.
1:49:53Good to see you, Mayor.
1:49:54Good to see you again.
1:49:59My wife, Claire.
1:49:59Very nice to see you, President.
1:50:04Nice to hear her voice.
1:50:05My oldest son, Jack.
1:50:05Andy.
1:50:05Tom.
1:50:06How old is he?
1:50:06Fifty-two.
1:50:06Fifty-two.
1:50:06Fifty-two.
1:50:07You can tell them to come, huh?
1:50:28Well, that's a great family.
1:50:28Don't let them know about us.
1:50:29We've got two more boys.
1:50:29Six-year-old and a two-year-old.
1:50:30Isn't that nice?
1:50:30Five boys, whatever.
1:50:31Five brothers and mine.
1:50:31All boys, no girls.
1:50:32We've all had little issues.
1:50:32I know.
1:50:32Yeah, I used to do that all my life.
1:50:33That's a pretty good family program.
1:50:34There we go.
1:50:35It feels good, doesn't it?
1:50:46It's pretty as warm as Phoenix, so this is what I'm trying to do.
1:50:50Let's shoot it over here to the flanks.
1:50:51Come on, come here.
1:50:56Now the way we'll do it, you get on this side of me.
1:50:57There you are.
1:50:57Now let me see.
1:50:58You stand right in front of me like so.
1:50:59Now let me see.
1:50:59That's right, that's right.
1:51:00Now you get in this side of your eye.
1:51:01There, there.
1:51:02Now, now you've got it well balanced.
1:51:03You've got a smile on your face.
1:51:07He took a picture of my daughter, which is on the part of Tom, you see.
1:51:27Tom Kennedy's daughter, yeah.
1:51:28There's a picture of his dad.
1:51:28He's one of the, we have him on the table now.
1:51:29Ha!
1:51:29This is great.
1:51:30The good housekeeping is stated by another.
1:51:31He took all these from Tom.
1:51:31The good housekeeping is so, you know, sweet.
1:51:32Yeah.
1:51:32Yeah, and then there's one low, too, that's on.
1:51:34I appreciate you, your fine work out there.
1:51:50Being a painter is the toughest job in the world.
1:51:56I mean, it's a great city.
1:51:56It's a great job.
1:51:57I'd like to have you later.
1:51:57Very much so.
1:51:57Is that, to you, Mr. President, the Centennial Coin?
1:52:00We just completed the titanium here at Phoenix.
1:52:15This is a silver-coined straw can.
1:52:16It's been 35 years of being here.
1:52:18Oh, that's great.
1:52:18Well, I'm glad to have this.
1:52:19I got the, uh, some kind of thing for Birmingham the other day.
1:52:22They come in, so...
1:52:23I won't go back 300 years, I'm afraid that's another thing.
1:52:38That was very innocent.
1:52:39I saw her in these spaces, the Yom City, like Yom, sir.
1:52:40The bottle from the big cities, and the road from the Yom to the city, and the people.
1:52:44And, uh, all 300 years ago.
1:52:44Don't get in there.
1:52:45I know people are gonna come in there.
1:52:46Now let me see, we got a few little assets for you.
1:52:48For the boys, we'll get you a little tighter.
1:53:01That's it.
1:53:01Now, why don't you see the presidential seal up there?
1:53:05There it is, the presidential seal.
1:53:06That's it.
1:53:06You get one.
1:53:06And here's the tie.
1:53:07Now, see, you're going to look at it.
1:53:08And that's for you.
1:53:09Ten percent for the other two boys.
1:53:11You get them tight.
1:53:16Do you have one of these?
1:53:30Yes.
1:53:30Well, yeah, but you can take it and all of it is wonderful.
1:53:39That's for the hand.
1:53:40I never looked at it.
1:53:42It's a very special thing to see.
1:53:44Well, we wish you all the very best here.
1:54:06The other boys didn't rain.
1:54:07Yeah, well, they won't appreciate us much.
1:54:07Six-year-old would probably be deeply regretted not being brought to here.
1:54:09I hope you have fun.
1:54:09Thank you, Mr. President.
1:54:10Thank you, Mr. President.
1:54:11I'll be testifying on Friday.
1:54:25I know you'll learn about that.
1:54:29We're working on it.
1:54:29Yes.
1:54:29I think that we'll get it sooner or later.
1:54:34I'll tell you, we've got most of the mayors, most of the governors, most of the county officials on our side.
1:54:36And just lay it on the line.
1:54:37They'll give you a rough time.
1:54:38Just stick in there.
1:54:38Thank you.
1:54:44I appreciate it very much.
1:55:06Here you are.
1:55:30Take a special tour now.
1:55:49Oh, here we go.
1:55:55It works.
2:02:10Bye.
2:44:03I mean, I thought that this has been a very fortunate exercise.
2:44:13I could see this morning that it began to get some focus, but I, Connolly, and Opie, and even a few others, but several of them came around to the view that we had to focus on one or two issues, that that was a real problem.
2:44:30And I think the, but I think in terms of focusing on leaving, I think that you've got to leave them.
2:44:49You've got to leave them and tell them how to focus, don't you think so?
2:44:53Maybe that's what we have to get down to.
2:44:54What are our issues?
2:44:55What do we want to do?
2:44:56So I'm going to do drug and crimes on my own, and we'll have colleagues hiking around about the economy.
2:45:02I get the impression, I must say, I get the impression, you said in the meeting, I realize we're just pissing away a hell of a lot of money, and these goddamn cabinet officers are running all over like a head of chickens with their heads cut off, doing things that are exulting as far as contributing to the success of this administration.
2:45:25You agree?
2:45:26Yes.
2:45:26I guess the budget is presiding over the bureaucrats, so we've got to do
2:45:32We've either got to decide now that we're going to bobble along as well as we can through the election and then do what needs to be done afterwards, or that it's worthwhile to take a bold move now that, I don't know if John's raised with you, but something like going in for zero funding on the basis, well, no, on the Great Society programs.
2:45:55On the basis that, you know, you've got a lot of stuff that doesn't work.
2:45:59It's proven it doesn't work.
2:46:04You've got to get the budget and keep going.
2:46:14With your 73 budget, it's got to be in full employment balance or full employment surplus.
2:46:24And it doesn't add up.
2:46:25I mean, it just doesn't.
2:46:25And there's no way.
2:46:27The way the budget stuff stacks out, there's no way to get it in the line, apparently.
2:46:31Except to cut something.
2:46:33Okay.
2:46:41Unless we get a big defense cut.
2:46:50I say we got a horrendous problem because it screwed up operation in the Defense Department.
2:46:56Yeah.
2:46:56You know, it's very interesting, you know, in your poll, how heavily it came down along the side of the staying head of the Russians.
2:46:59I'm sure you've got a potential issue there that we could use if necessary.
2:47:00And that's one, of course, that would...
2:47:02I was trying to be candid about this whole conservative business today, and he said the other stuff, what he'd reported to you, you know, is all this, you know, you have a radical conservative group that you can't worry too much about, but he thought you ought to be aware of what they're thinking, just so you know what the right effect, but he's concerned now because they've gotten Buckley and some of the people that have been with us are worried about Saul, and...
2:47:31So that's where we get into it.
2:47:39Don't let him get into that.
2:47:40I'll tell you why.
2:47:43That's all going to...
2:47:45I know.
2:47:45No, I'm going to put it this way.
2:47:48That will all be determined by what happens.
2:47:50The main thing is for Henry to get off of his ass.
2:47:51I've told you a dozen times, start talking to those people rather than simply talking to John Gardner.
2:47:56You know, at the Council of Foreign Relations, the person that's believing Henry has talked to every son of a bitch
2:48:00That will not help us politically.
2:48:11Correct.
2:48:12Yeah.
2:48:14What else were you starting to say that we can't come up with based on all this?
2:48:21Well, the defense spending concern.
2:48:22There are a whole lot that we're never going to settle them on the full employment budget.
2:48:25I mean, we're violating the basic principles.
2:48:28But we can't change on that, Bob.
2:48:33It won't lose us votes, it'll lose us some... Enthusiasm.
2:48:39Yeah, enthusiasm with the people that should be strong with us.
2:48:45And then you get into the whole domestic program, the fact that we still are eliminating anything, we've increased it.
2:48:54Or at least maintain it.
2:48:58I know it's over at ATW and all these other places.
2:49:09All this stuff at ATW and HUD and OBO to do the programs.
2:49:15Giving out more food stamps.
2:49:17Our polls show that people are all for those things, don't they?
2:49:18They want more for education, more for housing, more for everything else, right?
2:49:20Don't hold ourselves there.
2:49:29It's what people want.
2:49:35Ask if they want more taxes.
2:49:36That's pretty weird.
2:49:37They don't want the hell with that.
2:49:37That's correct.
2:49:38Oh, two times.
2:49:38Patricia called.
2:49:38She asked me to ask you if you would have your picture taken somewhere else.
2:49:40today, and I said that according to your schedule, about 5 o'clock as you're walking over to the diplomatic reception, we can do it right out on the steps.
2:49:52Tricia seems to think it would be a good place.
2:49:55Not these steps, but the outside steps over there.
2:49:59What kind of a picture do you have?
2:50:00Well, one of you and Tricia outside, and this will run after the...
2:50:05But would that be worth it then?
2:50:07Oh, sure.
2:50:07Before...
2:50:08She wants just with me, dressed like I am, you mean?
2:50:15Yes, sir.
2:50:15I could do it any time, but why do they want there?
2:50:18Well, this was Tricia's suggestion.
2:50:20Apparently in her discussions with life, they want one outside.
2:50:22And you talk to them, and that's what they want.
2:50:25And they want it at 5 o'clock.
2:50:26Well, I suggest 5 o'clock.
2:50:28I think it would be more convenient to you and Tricia send us 5 o'clock.
2:50:32Well, our reception and the meeting is at 5.15.
2:50:33Yes, sir.
2:50:37All right.
2:50:37How did the...
2:50:40I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't able to look at the, look inside, but I thought that Atkins' time cover was shaking.
2:50:50Oh, the whole time thing was great.
2:50:52Good story.
2:50:53Good story.
2:50:54Great picture.
2:50:55Sensational picture of Julia and Tricia.
2:50:59Up in the, and the outside terrace shot was good.
2:51:02And the one in the, one in the queen's bedroom.
2:51:05It just... And Trisha and Ed in the...
2:51:14Contrast between that and... Life did a story, a picture story on the Kennedy Center, the Kennedy Gala.
2:51:22Yeah.
2:51:22It has a full-page picture.
2:51:24I'll show it to you.
2:51:24You've got to see it.
2:51:25Full-page color picture.
2:51:25It has all the pictures.
2:51:28It's just repulsing.
2:51:29It's just repulsing looking people doing kind of obnoxious, typical Kennedy Society type things.
2:51:32You know, I'm drunk and making faces and all that.
2:51:34But they're interesting.
2:51:37They're gay.
2:51:40Not really.
2:51:40They're slobs.
2:51:41They really are.
2:51:42But the full-page Codex Arcturus Square, if I get it right, of Eunice Shriver and Pat Lawford, the two Kennedy girls.
2:51:50And Pat Lawford is wearing them hot pants in a metallic, looks like an acrobat suit or something, you know, the trapeze artists would wear or something.
2:51:56And these two...
2:51:57They're close up enough pictures that their faces show, and they both are so hard, disgusting.
2:52:11Yeah, hard and crude.
2:52:11The degenerate looking faces, you know, the wrinkles and the sides and all that sort of stuff.
2:52:13I remember those two.
2:52:14And they dress like a young girl ought to be dressed, you know, a 17-year-old.
2:52:15The girl would look great in that thing, but this old bag wearing it just looks terrible.
2:52:20And the contrast between that picture on the cover of White with Teddy and Joan Kennedy and the picture on the cover of Time of Ed and Trish is just truly something.
2:52:32It sparks.
2:52:32We can't call the Kennedy-Sparket guns.
2:52:40Oh, no, Kennedy still would.
2:52:43I'm not putting it down, but I'm talking about the... You mean the Kennedy mid-type stuff?
2:52:46Yes, yes, yes.
2:52:47Where is it?
2:52:49Where is it?
2:52:52might be.
2:52:55Well, I'm glad you say the time for a cover of the Newsweek one is all right.
2:53:07Newsweek is all right, too.
2:53:08It's a number of pictures.
2:53:10We weren't able to cooperate with it because it came out fine.
2:53:13It came out fine.
2:53:13Now, Life is doing a cover after the wedding scene, but they want to intersperse.
2:53:15They're going to do the cover with the wedding shot, which Trish is a formal wedding scene.
2:53:19That will go after the wedding.
2:53:21And they wanted to fill
2:53:23and with other, you know, before-wedding type things.
2:53:35That's why they would like to get the pension.
2:53:37I think that's fine.
2:53:39And revenue sharing in the briefing today said that the American people were pretty well taxed out at the local and state level, and that's why revenue sharing has such widespread support from the local officials because it's dollars that will help them meet their problems and the pressure of the increasing property taxes and other forms of taxes at the local level will then
2:53:51I'll tell you what I would do.
2:53:57You might put it in terms of this segment.
2:53:59The choice of the Congress now is that it's happening on its own.
2:54:02We're either going to have revenue sharing or we're going to have to increase the property taxes.
2:54:10That's the choice.
2:54:10Revenue sharing is the answer.
2:54:11It's stopping the increase in property tax.
2:54:14And to get that goal to reduce the property tax.
2:54:17Which is why virtually everyone, everywhere in the country is in favor of revolution, except a few old men in Washington.
2:54:27Well, I said, what we have to do is, I heard someone say this, but I said, what we have to do is break the protective band around Congress.
2:54:35I said, what we're doing, we're out across the country, we're enthusiastic about this, and what we have to do is crack through that protective band.
2:54:40They said, well, Bill's in.
2:54:41Out across the country, he's seeing the same people.
2:54:53Why don't he?
2:54:55I said, well, because he's against it.
2:55:00I hope he gets a movement out of that.
2:55:03You know, at Rising, they did not press me on allowance today.
2:55:06I'm not sure they would do that.
2:55:07Well, it's an old story in the end.
2:55:11It's basically the West.
2:55:12That's all been covered.
2:55:15Exactly what it is.
2:55:16This program started in the previous administration.
2:55:26This administration completely disclosed it.
2:55:30There's nothing new in these areas.
2:55:30Period.
2:55:31So I've referred.
2:55:31I've got one line, and that goes back to 1962 in the Kennedy administration where the North Vietnamese broke the Geneva Accords.
2:55:35And I said, we've outlined in your March statement what the situation was left at the time.
2:55:46Well, I think that the whole wedding thing is, uh, why don't we finally decide, you know, about the, uh, I mean, the, uh, movies.
2:56:05The TV.
2:56:05The TV?
2:56:05You know, that's all worked out very well.
2:56:07We're going to allow them to begin to use it at 6 o'clock.
2:56:11We're going to allow them to begin to use, um, what they'll cover at 6 o'clock, which is to start a motion show now.
2:56:19so it's going it's going to get dirty very big very very big tv and i think the way that we've done it which is not letting the carrier builds their interest and force them into the to the i don't know the interesting parts of it are they going to carry this inspection oh yes sir they're committed to it abc
2:56:44Has it special about anything?
2:56:48NBC has two specials.
2:56:53NBC does one from 6 o'clock and then from, I think, 8.30 to 9.30, or they're still working around 8 to 9 in prime time.
2:57:00There will be very few people in this country that won't see that.
2:57:04Who won't see it and won't have an opportunity to see it at a different time.
2:57:10They will see it because it's going to cover so much.
2:57:13See, because the NBC first session will begin at 6 and will run in pattern.
2:57:18In other words, it'll be 6 here, then 3 in the West.
2:57:21But then their evening special will be across the board at whatever time it starts.
2:57:27What's the second half hour?
2:57:31Hour.
2:57:31Hour.
2:57:31How the hell do they know?
2:57:33Oh, I guess.
2:57:34Oh, you look at guests arriving and talking about the cake and walking down the steps.
2:57:40Back up, drunk.
2:57:41Oh.
2:57:44You're letting them in now?
2:57:53I'm guessing I want to find a way to keep it so I don't get Nader getting in the picture.
2:57:58Can you do that?
2:57:59Is the whole deception line being photographed only?
2:58:02No, only the first 15 minutes.
2:58:03They'll get Nader then?
2:58:03Well, we can... No, but I don't want that.
2:58:04Oh, no, that's all I mean.
2:58:05Oh, I know he's got to be photographed, but I don't think we ought to play him up that much.
2:58:07Oh, well, don't worry about it.
2:58:09Did you sue the line?
2:58:09Did you sue the line?
2:58:11I didn't want to glorify him, by any chance, but...
2:58:22I think he was doing very well in the magazines, and I think it was good we didn't do any pre-TV stuff.
2:58:28No, I agree.
2:58:28Well, maybe...
2:58:28I think you're right.
2:58:29I think you're right.
2:58:30Yeah, we don't want to make a goddamn drama service.
2:58:31CBS is going to do a special the night before on the wedding, and I think it's a half an hour.
2:58:35Preparations.
2:58:36Preparations, and...
2:58:37There'd be quite a, quite an impact on all this wedding stuff.
2:58:45Oh, sure, there are.
2:58:48This is really getting more than the Johnson wedding.
2:58:49That kind of big play.
2:58:50Well, it's a great big play.
2:58:53Because they did it live, as I recall.
2:58:56They did the wedding live, didn't they?
2:58:58They did something live.
2:58:59They did it live as they were coming in, but they didn't do the ceremony.
2:59:02I saw part of it on TV.
2:59:02I didn't see it on TV.
2:59:03Very good.
2:59:03Very good.
2:59:03Extremely well done.
2:59:05They had her coming down the stairs into the mall.
2:59:12The tall one?
2:59:36Well, you did get a chance to talk to Henry about the public knowledge of salt and so forth and so on.
2:59:50Not that he could do anything about it, but just the fact that we all got to realize, and I would hope he would put it off to Scallion if he would.
2:59:59I had an alert this morning that I wanted to try to make a special alert.
3:00:16I want you to give this to the gallery too about the fact that the carrier was even 19 this week.
3:00:20It's really, that's the first time below 20.
3:00:23It's up to, of course, one week was 16, but it was actually 21.
3:00:25Yeah.
3:00:2513 is home this week.
3:00:26Do you want to see it?
3:00:26He's recommending that it's T is that you might find it useful to talk about the value of cellular connection.
3:00:30in the Soviet situation.
3:00:50He's recommending 15 nights.
3:00:51Well, he wants a half hour.
3:00:53Sure, I'll see you.
3:00:53Okay.
3:00:53And they are recommending that you see Cooper... What?
3:00:54This week.
3:00:54Well, he still wants to report to you on his trip.
3:00:56That would be of ostensible purpose.
3:00:57The real reason being that he...
3:00:58Yeah.
3:01:01Can we do anything about this business?
3:01:13Can somebody handle Opie and get his report?
3:01:15Oh, sure.
3:01:15Hell yeah.
3:01:16Another one that wants to report to me is Don Kendall on his trip.
3:01:20Well, I talked to Don, and really, if there isn't a Don, then he has to say to me.
3:01:22I think the thing to do on him is just solve it.
3:01:23I talked to him and told him the wedding was on this week.
3:01:27You know, said that, said that I'd seen, I'd seen E.T.
3:01:37down here next week, but he said it isn't urgent at all.
3:01:42He said, I don't need to, I don't need to go down.
3:01:48So, the other one was actually, it wasn't important.
3:01:51Stan, huh?
3:01:51Javits.
3:01:51Stan Javits, I used to see him.
3:01:52I'd rather not see him now.
3:01:52Because it isn't about Israel anyway, so we should see him.
3:01:54It's a presumption for him, even to ask.
3:01:56I don't think this is going to happen.
3:02:03The other, uh, scheduled thing is whether we can confirm an official visit of Matak in August.
3:02:10We had, you know, sort of agreed.
3:02:13We had agreed to the Lando visit and then we told them.
3:02:16In August, we had sent a Lando visit for us.
3:02:19They wanted an August, then we suspended that.
3:02:22Matak has now said he would like to call on you wherever you are.
3:02:25You do it in California, you've got to be there.
3:02:31Is that a good time?
3:02:32That's what they think.
3:02:35And the idea would be to strengthen his position at home.
3:02:43He's doing a good job.
3:02:44Demonstrate support.
3:02:44Yeah.
3:02:44All right.
3:02:46Fine.
3:02:46It would just be an official visit, not a state visit.
3:02:47Well, all I want is to, you know, go ahead.
3:02:51All right.
3:02:59You've just got to hang tight with guys like Bowlby, don't you?
3:03:10And others.
3:03:11I think so.
3:03:15I think we've got to just let him walk all over us all the time.
3:03:17You don't have to.
3:03:17The thing to say is, you don't need a report on this turkey like Henry to get a report.
3:03:22You've got Stephanie, Pops, Kevin, all the reports put together.
3:03:26First, I'm going to put him on some cabinet meeting.
3:03:35Let him board the cabinet.
3:03:41I'll get back to that show and tell the cabinet.
3:03:51That's the cabinet.
3:03:52Thank you for coming.
3:04:10My view is that we're in a situation, in terms of our public position, which, as I would put it, on a personal standpoint, we're better than I think we thought.
3:04:29Yes, we're better.
3:04:30From a history standpoint, we're worse than we thought.
3:04:34And that's what it means.
3:04:37Or if we're damn low, considering what we've done, we've got goddamn no credit, Bob.
3:04:52And that's because of the water.
3:04:54No, it's just the water.
3:04:55But I think the other thing is, for Christ's sake, the Mideast, we get negative ratings.
3:04:57We get very little positive ratings on salt.
3:04:59No positive ratings on China.
3:05:00Do you mind if I...
3:05:00Here are all these big things we thought we were doing.
3:05:01The world here doesn't come true.
3:05:02I think you believe me.
3:05:03You've got to realize that...
3:05:05I'm good.
3:05:12I think you ought to talk to them.
3:05:16I think you really ought to talk to the scalpel and say, all right, this isn't a wonderful opportunity to get scalpeled more.
3:05:25In this case, say, okay, here we've done all these things.
3:05:26What the hell is the matter?
3:05:29Don't you agree?
3:05:29I think maybe we've got to let them out more.
3:05:38If the public doesn't get anything, then I should make it simple and just repeat it.
3:05:55That's the point.
3:05:57And it's not repeating over and over.
3:05:59We do not repeat.
3:06:00We do not have to sign it.
3:06:00Make one solid announcement, now it's all out of the way.
3:06:01The various actors have a lot to go on about that.
3:06:02I don't know that this is a law issue.
3:06:03We're going to reverse that.
3:06:04The economic issue, we can't do a goddamn thing about it except fight the inflation.
3:06:05We've got to find a couple of benefits.
3:06:06And fight the unemployment.
3:06:07the whole, I must say, was really pondered around.
3:06:21I, you know, John was surprised when I told him that I'm ranking second.
3:06:29I gave him your analysis, and I said, John, he says, it has no, he said, what about those with control?
3:06:31I said, no, no, no, only in the south.
3:06:32Do you remember?
3:06:32I said, you've got to look at that question.
3:06:34That's why you see the analysis of that poll is so important.
3:06:36so that you don't get the, you know, so get the break-ins.
3:06:50You do, you really have, with the Buchanan thing, whatever, you can't get across the Buchanan thing.
3:06:55You've got to broker the law.
3:06:56You've got to broker the thing.
3:06:57You've got to go to the police, and you've got to do all that stuff.
3:06:58And he's very strong at that.
3:07:00Yeah.
3:07:00He just said, you know, he got sent to the other side of the agency, but I don't know, but he just, besides the positive, there, he does a lot of government law, you know, to get the card,
3:07:07I put a tar on the plate off.
3:07:18I forgot to tell him about it.
3:07:28Oh, that's a compliment.
3:07:29It isn't your view at all.
3:07:29It's all personal things.
3:07:30We're probably going to want to accept it and tell some people.
3:07:32I think.
3:07:33Which is, it's an idea related to issues that is a bit low and a bit of a, in a courageous sense.
3:07:36So that is the strong need at this time.
3:07:37Strong, strong leader.
3:07:45Well, I quote that because again, they don't need to be a congressman.
3:07:51Well, because there's no clear-cut thing.
3:07:53There's nothing like that.
3:07:57They aren't fighting for something.
3:07:58You've got to fight the Congress, Bob, or you've got to fight the labor unions, or you've got to fight...
3:08:02the best coroner's interests, or the bureau, or state coroners.
3:08:11And we're not fighting them, but we're just nice guys.
3:08:15The only thing I fought, so to put it, in the public mind, and that we've gotten a couple weeks, is that I fought against the demonstrators, right?
3:08:23That won't be forgotten.
3:08:24We've got a pretty good line on that one, because we've done it.
3:08:25May last consistently, and people feel strongly.
3:08:28So, on the matter of the
3:08:29That is enough.
3:08:32Fighting demonstrators are an admiration.
3:08:37They're not a high grade, not a scurvy temper.
3:08:41You've got to be against something more than that.
3:08:43But taking our strong suit of foreign policy, I do not agree.
3:08:47And you'll agree with me on that one.
3:08:57We've got Henriette Scully and Chris.
3:08:59When I talked to them, they said, this is our strong suit.
3:09:02We're doing very well in foreign policy.
3:09:03The answer is, we're not doing nearly as well as we ought to.
3:09:05I don't agree.
3:09:05It's a no-go.
3:09:05It's just a no-go.
3:09:06Sure, the war is a drag.
3:09:07That's true.
3:09:07It's a no-go.
3:09:08But we've got a whole lot of policies in the foreign policy area that we simply aren't getting any credit on.
3:09:13Right?
3:09:16Yeah.
3:09:16But as the war goes, I think those are there, which, they need something there to take the people away from.
3:09:28Well, they can't assault those who have been assaulted.
3:09:34It's not a bad thing, and I know it would.
3:09:35No, the nuclear arms, when you announced it, I thought, yeah, the invitation to arms, I think it would mean a hell of a lot.
3:09:38Because that, they're going to get to the people who are scared, maybe.
3:09:39Certainly, assaulting does have some effect on them.
3:18:28All right.
3:18:52Spread it a little bit.
3:18:52Spread it.
3:18:52Oh, yeah.
3:18:52That's what it is.
3:18:53Yeah.
3:18:53All right.
3:18:53All right.
3:18:53All right.
3:18:54All right.
3:18:54All right.
3:18:54All right.
3:18:57But you're trying to pass.
3:19:20I don't think he thought he was getting out of it.
3:19:21He's in the dark.
3:19:21He's in Washington.
3:19:22He's trying to make it.
3:19:22Oh, my God.
3:19:22I saw that.
3:19:24Oh, God.
3:19:24This morning, this morning, this morning, that's nice.
3:19:25It's not worse than usual.
3:19:26Yeah.
3:19:26Yeah.
3:19:26Yeah.
3:19:35I hesitate to speculate.
3:20:00Is this substandard and all the others are substandard?
3:20:01Oh, really?
3:20:01I have no idea.
3:20:02They're coordinated to just kind of increase the pressure.
3:20:19And I don't think there's any signs.
3:20:20How about the fire, the police already had there.
3:20:21Yeah.
3:20:22There's a fire over there.
3:20:25Do you think police are not the shooter?
3:20:26The kind of misdemeanor is more when you have an employee.
3:20:28I don't know how many bridge standards there are, but it certainly doesn't.
3:20:30Yeah, I know.
3:20:30I saw a picture of Tom this morning.
3:20:32Huge numbers of cars, you can imagine, on the bridge.
3:20:42If we all are going to be riding along, there is the bridge for the boats to go through, and the traffic backs up for miles.
3:20:45What do you think of the foundation?
3:20:46I think it's great.
3:20:47are oddly unaffected by this, or takes the quickest route of walking, which is up to LaGuardia, New York, by an unusual route, just a couple of 18 minutes from Rockefeller Center to LaGuardia.
3:21:09Fastest trip ever by a traffic jam.
3:21:10To cross the Leesburg Bridge and then the side streets, to stag off the Tri-Berlin Grand Slam, and stag off Grand Slam.
3:21:14Well, traffic today is crazy.
3:21:29Well, we got the engineers and the teams going around.
3:21:32All night long, we got half the bridges closed and open to traffic.
3:21:34Clearing the traffic.
3:21:35And some people, you know, just one day off.
3:21:36We were discussing this before we came in, how New Yorkers respond to this kind of stuff.
3:21:38So I'm looking forward to our attendance.
3:21:39For instance, it was about that.
3:21:41People came to work.
3:21:44... ... ... ... ... ...
3:22:07If you want to arrest her, then arrest her.
3:22:26If not, then find a way to arrest her.
3:22:27If you want to pretend to stare at her, this is the best you can do on me.
3:22:28Well, uh, I can say to you that I want to talk to you, uh, in this room, because you have very good students who, yes, you can see that they're, they're in such good ways, but I can tell you, I'll be sure to give you a few seconds.
3:22:33on the business side to see whether we're all in the same position.
3:22:55Let me start off with a question about cable television.
3:22:56I've had a lot of previous conversations
3:23:01What is your position on that?
3:23:29I think probably this is what I can do.
3:23:31is a question that I think both of the others, they see much more prominency as both ways, because whether it was to be sure that this decision, as far as the government was concerned, was one that was very carefully considered, because it was very bad, very, and this is, so.
3:23:56We have a terrible response.
3:23:57We have a terrible response.
3:23:58We have a violent reaction.
3:24:00It is a new normal, you know, annual six, U.S., uh, 25.
3:24:19Yeah, we've had to digest ourselves a little bit about two years.
3:24:20Uh, but a 25-hour show, we believe, is a new horse.
3:24:22We have the background of this.
3:24:22It's an additional method of discovering programs.
3:24:23But we don't think it will reach the scope or size or enormity of broadcast over-the-air television.
3:24:27It tells us 150 million people all the time.
3:24:29People subtract some of it because the television is big enough to suffer, and some subtract it without paying attention.
3:24:48So you need to at least hear it after you saw it on the same CD.
3:24:50And I think it's better to leave it on there.
3:24:51You see it over and over again.
3:24:52When a new force comes out of the national interest system, which in legal terms, administrative, regulatory terms, is not geared for it,
3:24:56There's a great deal of confusion and a great deal of delay in having the system, the regulatory and people system, absorbed.
3:25:18I think that's a period where you satisfy the government agencies.
3:25:20I don't think they know what they're doing about it, but neither does anybody else.
3:25:21That's not what the problem is.
3:25:22Now, I think we would be congratulating us on the fact that unfair and unfair is CETV as compared to broadcasting as we
3:25:25have it now, but for it to be able to co-exist with us, we think, is the future.
3:25:43It is a supplementary system, a system which will have frank analysis that deal with the question.
3:25:45Yes, oh yes, yes it will.
3:25:46There's one part, Mr. President, that I don't think is a technical or legalistic point.
3:25:48CHP was born and now largely lives
3:25:49intelligence programs in which other people have proprietary interests, which are picked up by CATV systems,
3:25:56and distribute it without any economic return to the people who own the programs or created the programs.
3:26:13That is a copyright question.
3:26:14That's the thing that we'll be looking for.
3:26:15There's a contract that's not going to go through yet.
3:26:17There's a power update that's running through it.
3:26:19And there is something quite inequitable about a business being created as a power site.
3:26:21Yeah, I've had enough of this without taking it.
3:26:22I think we're going now through the troubles of accommodation.
3:26:24And I would expect that in the next two or three years, there will be legislation that deals
3:26:26It's probably inequity.
3:26:30There's a complex situation because the copyright terms
3:26:33the programs that were created and then broadcast to be viewed by people in a certain area.
3:26:50Sometimes terrain and conversion, as the ATV system may help accomplish the original purpose, but when it goes beyond that and transports programs two or three hundred miles away, that is eating into the economic structure of business on a sufficient basis.
3:26:58John, you had a comment after that.
3:27:00There's a load of the book, ATV, Writing Piggyback, on C-ATV, which is built up through carrying these free signals, and then there might be a dependent force to withdraw one program
3:27:30But it's very difficult to assess that.
3:27:48Of course, another thing I thought we'd have to think about is that the breakthroughs that take place in your art, who knows what it's going to be you do in the future.
3:27:54I was talking with a good lad yesterday or another, a couple weeks ago, who was a performer on the end of The Genius Kid.
3:27:57And, you know, at the present time, he did fantastic.
3:28:00where where somebody said in washington
3:28:35This is only an institutional question now.
3:28:47The research has been done.
3:28:47I can't explain it to you.
3:28:48I keep on looking at it.
3:28:49Nobody understands what's happening.
3:28:49That is enormously important in terms of something that hurts.
3:28:52are controlled by either of the great powers or any of the three great powers can only be agreed to if there is some sort of verification.
3:29:09Now, regardless of the Soviet or Chinese or any of the totalitarian system, they will not allow that verification on the spot, which of course can give you some degree of vulnerability.
3:29:14But anyway,
3:29:15They were taking my pictures, maybe in my house, to have a missile.
3:29:36They first happened to show you how important it would be to have it as far as quickly as possible.
3:29:38You may remember last summer we had a flight with the Soviets.
3:29:40And we got in and asked if they were going to build the missile sites in the canal.
3:29:41And it was an intelligence question.
3:29:43Were they going to do it or were they not going to do it?
3:29:44They said, no, we're not.
3:29:45who is of course one of the best optologists in the world.
3:29:56They said they worked very well.
3:29:57Three years later, when we got the next set of pictures, they were, they had arrived, they had started three years before.
3:30:05This thing, the flag, that's the problem, that's what you get.
3:30:06So I'm not suggesting we go around and do this and this and that, sure.
3:30:09But assuming that you had it, you would have it instantly.
3:30:11Now, that's my digression.
3:30:29It seems to me that in your field, who knows what's going to come along.
3:30:31I mean, it doesn't mean that you're...
3:30:32If you look back, I'm sorry, is that a sell here?
3:30:33No sell here, NBC.
3:30:33Stop.
3:30:33No, if you look back 25 years, you're not going to miss it.
3:30:34I'm just asking that.
3:30:35And I'm launching both futures I know to bring something.
3:30:36And you cannot, you cannot secularize a cancer at any time.
3:30:37It's going to break you.
3:30:39If there's a market for it, and if there's even a basis for it, it is going to happen.
3:30:57If it provides a service that a lot of people want to pay money for.
3:30:59I cannot be right.
3:30:59We're aware of that.
3:30:59The fact that you was present at the meeting, we didn't have some discussion about it.
3:31:08I wish you had some reason.
3:31:12or is it in regard to the decisions of the early investigations leading into perhaps the regulation in the display?
3:31:39I always say this because of my business orientation.
3:31:40There are biases.
3:31:40There's a lot of biases.
3:31:43for the, for the, the system, the very strong applications that you've got, the influences and the standards of the start down, or what you start down for, the, uh, uh, the power of the, uh, of, uh, the, uh, field of, uh, of, uh, the particular start down, or what we call, uh, censorship, repression, and so forth, and the liberty and the direction of that thing.
3:32:13Let me hear your views on it.
3:32:36How serious do you think the problem is, or are you concerned about it?
3:32:38What is it they have to do with that?
3:32:38I don't mean to pre-practice their words before they occur.
3:32:39I indicate only my concern that as you move into this kind of field, the whole way too far, especially these days, that I would have...
3:32:43a great deal of, a great deal of, about allowing this to move too far, knowing that, knowing that, that inevitably, if you start over this path, you say, well, that's bad.
3:33:05And then you go on for the whole business is bad.
3:33:09And why do you have advertising at all?
3:33:10And why don't you just go for public stuff?
3:33:11And then you're finished.
3:33:11That, I mean, I think, good programming, but...
3:33:12You want to talk to them?
3:33:27Yes, very much so, because you really have a testimony to tell us.
3:33:30Well, it's worth talking about the position I'm sitting here to be in, what the position of the government is, and so forth.
3:33:32I mean, it's been two months since I saw the CPS people.
3:33:35They raised me.
3:33:35Fine.
3:33:35You really have a testimony to say that, had you asked us what is our one greatest concern, we would have said that, not just the FTC investigation, but what it symbolizes and signifies.
3:33:40I've spread it over all areas of America, not just here.
3:33:49Your branch here, in Congress, and throughout the city, and throughout the country.
3:33:53And that is, the networks are big.
3:33:55They are successful.
3:33:55Why don't we have just a general plan that exists that encourages people to, on all levels, perhaps in the Justice Department, in a fairly stagnant community,
3:34:05All of the many things that are done simply say, let's knock it out of the list.
3:34:17Let's see the big boys suck.
3:34:20We think broadcasting systems, which we have now, is the greatest in the world for Americans.
3:34:22As you said, it's a little broad, but it's going to work out.
3:34:24television, you come back home and you sort of actually see it on commercial television.
3:34:37I mean, yes, we have a standard television.
3:34:40Yes, we do.
3:34:41So do Japanese media.
3:34:41But we go step by step.
3:34:42The greatest broadcaster is the former through the competitive system.
3:34:44The competition is the greatest of the false.
3:34:48Of course, we've got to correct ourselves.
3:34:49But throughout the regulatory agencies, there is a sort of failure of that.
3:34:52All the networks would stand and have a certification disappear, and that's the key to the product.
3:35:04We don't need to be in that business.
3:35:05The networks don't need all the time to take half an hour away from a problem and give it to somebody else to see what that does.
3:35:09We're primetime, and that hasn't been done.
3:35:11I mean, you're talking about, you're talking about the situation, and that's what you're saying.
3:35:30You're not talking about these political problems.
3:35:31This is the question where, what was this when the play raised?
3:35:32The crime time policy, I don't know.
3:35:33It's one of the reasons where some caught the shelf of this drug.
3:35:35Apparently, the X for equal time because of the .
3:35:43What is it?
3:35:43Nobody can be serious about suiting against Standard Oil.
3:36:04Oh, yes.
3:36:04Sure.
3:36:04That's what they're doing.
3:36:05They're going at it.
3:36:05Well, this is part of the second problem.
3:36:06The Prime Time Act has ruled this very briefly as an FCC rule that says instead of permitting stations to take three and a half hours to network each night, they may take only three hours.
3:36:10The other half hour must be brought off by the station, off from independent producers.
3:36:12And we think that has resulted in a
3:36:13lasting equality programs.
3:36:30And I think the conservative community will take a couple years to straighten it out.
3:36:32We're not asking you to dis-understand.
3:36:33That was the most rigid piece of paper I've ever read.
3:36:34But my position, let me say, I think we are agreeing on everything, but there might be a line of help, and that's not going to be it.
3:36:37I have a very strong position on that, for the incredibly part of the network problem.
3:36:44very difficult to push.
3:36:56They need to make an absolutely compelling case, and I think, Chelsea, you agree they made a good one.
3:37:05I think we're moving in the right direction on that.
3:37:06Tell us what else it's saying.
3:37:08The FCC has, of course, would have some difficulty reversing the media right away.
3:37:10I think people are lying.
3:37:11I know our viewers, but they know the news, and they're being reasonably liberal, I think, choosing the way.
3:37:13exceptions to it.
3:37:20I think he has exceptions.
3:37:21He has to be a citizen.
3:37:23But let me say it.
3:37:25You've got to, you've got to, you want to save a lot of things.
3:37:27But I'm a hell of a lot more interested in saving the American movie industry than the French movie industry or the Italian movie industry.
3:37:32Listen, there's $50 million in film production on the market.
3:37:34We've got to get out of that one from the standpoint of the other of that of the spectrum.
3:37:54I suppose you are rich that the movie studios aren't.
3:37:55Only two of them make money much.
3:37:56We're not that rich.
3:38:05We are not supposed to be involved in that.
3:38:21to gather evidence that leads towards some kind of study of the influence of advertising, television advertising on people.
3:38:42I don't know whether it's done legally, and I don't know whether it's done fairly and properly according to the FTC term, but on the influence on people's minds of television advertising.
3:38:49Tom, you can close this.
3:38:50Whether or not the appeals...
3:38:51Emotional motivations.
3:39:08Yeah, there.
3:39:08Because again, I have a business orientation, which I would have to admit, but what is the action on the other side?
3:39:17They say that this is simply an inquiry to develop facts to see if television advertising isn't different from all other advertising.
3:39:20But if it's more restrictive rules, they'll have to be applied to television advertising.
3:39:27For example, let's say, while we have always allowed a certain amount of pottery,
3:39:33in the sale of products, and that's part of our American economic system.
3:39:49It printed that.
3:39:50But in television now, maybe we've got to do away with poverty.
3:39:51Because, as a matter of fact, you have to have a higher income.
3:39:53Well, maybe we have to bring it back down so that the only advertising that you can have on television is a simple fact advertising about the product, the kind of things that you consume for course, and not allow any kind of appeal
3:40:02to sell it.
3:40:11We can't make a commercial for it at all.
3:40:12This is news, though.
3:40:12Very nuanced areas.
3:40:13We have sexual hospital effects.
3:40:15It's the whole business of every, every, every, every extreme doesn't really get, I sat and talked to some of these people in Boston, you know, it doesn't get brand names and everything else, you know, they mentioned it, that's why he had a brand name, that's why he had a name.
3:40:32It's every, every, every, every, every, every, every, every, every, every, every,
3:40:34I was wondering, on the other hand, on the other hand, all of you would agree, and I'm sure there's a bit, to be honest, to be honest.
3:40:53There's nothing to do with it.
3:40:54We have 37 people working full-time to make sure the claims are substantiated, that people don't... You would blame yourself.
3:40:57I would blame myself.
3:40:57We work at it very diligently.
3:40:58We think that's the way it should be done.
3:41:00They don't know what the network is.
3:41:13They don't know what the network is.
3:41:14They're looking for something.
3:41:14Mr. President, I recognize that it's not an inquiry into misleading advertising.
3:41:16Or advertising, at least not to be based.
3:41:17But advertising has an emotional appeal rather than a wholly irrational appeal.
3:41:19Do anything else that I say that makes people buy it and get away with it?
3:41:43I don't care about that.
3:41:43Go ahead.
3:41:44Right.
3:41:44Are you sure you didn't tell me?
3:41:44Yeah, but now we're going to consider it.
3:41:45We're going to consider it.
3:41:46Yeah, sure.
3:41:46A little time has already been here, and all of a sudden it might have changed.
3:41:48It's going to fly.
3:41:49You have things like the Flat House Children's Board that you got, or Mr. Tye says you were going in, which is really sort of built or made up from people who had that preconceived notion doing it, and are reporting to you some preconceived notions about that.
3:42:14Now we agree, first of all, children's programs need to be improved, and we are trying very hard to do that.
3:42:16And we are working with Lee Birch, who is a fireman, and we always agree with what he says.
3:42:18actions of the Commission.
3:42:31But we are working with them and trying to see what we can do to increase and improve our children's program.
3:42:37The fact is, all these things are systematic.
3:42:39I was about to say, I don't feel I'm making my point very well.
3:42:41You say you are business oriented.
3:42:42I think you are.
3:42:42I think the kind of plan that exists in our business now is one that you would not personally approve or your party would not approve.
3:42:45And that is a plan that says
3:42:46Let's see what we can do to the network, to the column, and the... Well, let's see what we can do to television, because it is a package.
3:43:03Yes.
3:43:04And the more successful or effective you are, the more you can take it down to the lower account level.
3:43:09The prime time access rule, which was passed by the way, when you really get down to it, it just throws out the faces.
3:43:12It said, the system of networking is so inefficient, we have to take something away from it, open up,
3:43:16Well, it's a curious thing not to beat the prime time access rule for death, because certainly Chairman Birch
3:43:40Why is it a bad rule?
3:43:53The irony of it is, it acted to take us down a peg, as David said.
3:44:01Actually, it will decline economically under the rule.
3:44:03The problem is that the programs will not be as good.
3:44:05Not to bore you with it, but something we put great store by, special programs, the programs that come on and interrupt the regular series of programs.
3:44:27It has a devastating impact on those because it gives you less maneuverability in time.
3:44:30You'll see it on news specials.
3:44:30You'll see it on press conferences.
3:44:31It's a very big issue.
3:44:31It compresses the space in which you can present one time only news events, entertainment shows, which is my area.
3:44:35sports programs, and anything that has a much greater effect on that than the mere arithmetic effect of one half an hour out of three and a half hours.
3:44:57Unfortunately, it's the audience that sucks, and that is the broad audience as an entity.
3:44:59And in our view, the broad audience as an entity really didn't get any consideration for making the book.
3:45:05A man's brother and I asked you to do anything.
3:45:23I don't know what you're saying.
3:45:24But we have enough.
3:45:24I thought you wanted to tell us.
3:45:25Yes.
3:45:25Coming to the, uh, but you, you, you were saying, uh, what you, what you do here is good about you, isn't it?
3:45:27I can see.
3:45:28Yeah.
3:45:28This is your channel.
3:45:31Yes.
3:45:31I used to say, you know, you look at him, that's five years.
3:45:35No, no.
3:45:35great advantage to the business and the system to come through an effort to make advertising and get it done in business.
3:45:55And in this case, particularly television advertising, which has large impact, reducing impact, to say the process has large impact, it should be pure information that no field desires or wants to use.
3:46:03I can see that in other areas.
3:46:03I can't.
3:46:04First, good programs cost money.
3:46:04Second,
3:46:05Advertisers don't pay money for the programs unless the advertiser sells products.
3:46:21Third, if the advertiser is lousy, not emotional, they won't sell the product.
3:46:23Fourth, they're going to have more programs.
3:46:24I know that.
3:46:24It's just a reality.
3:46:25No question.
3:46:26How do they know about this?
3:46:28How about this, sir?
3:46:44Sir, this is Sif.
3:46:45I, I am still here in the MTC.
3:46:46We're going to have a little movement as much as we can.
3:46:48The staff, sir.
3:46:48Yes, sir.
3:46:49They're all running down.
3:46:49This is a conception.
3:46:50This is not a Senate bail.
3:46:50It's the Senators involved.
3:46:51This is our Congress.
3:46:52I don't believe Senator Frank Moss.
3:46:54Senator Frank Moss.
3:46:54Senator Frank Moss has been introduced into a bill.
3:46:56which has some of the same overtones, but I think that was an independent moment.
3:47:10I think probably the way back to the origin would be when you put a man on a cigarette, and it was the same theory you were expressing.
3:47:20So you want to de-attack and then use that to move into something else that they love.
3:47:22The reverse point, the charm of the MTC, the inversion, to consider that when it's commissioned, passing general regulations,
3:47:25to think about the differential effects that they have on different media.
3:47:41Regulations which the attorney would be effective to tell us might be very destructive, as you referenced at that point.
3:47:46Now, of course, the FCC is doing some reverse destruction.
3:47:48Well, the commission has been considering requiring advertisers who have been found guilty of having misleading advertising to print all of their ads.
3:47:52and all that, and sort of broadcast and all that for the next six months, a confession of guilt that says the Commission has, the FTC hasn't judged us, guilty of misleading and stashing business respect.
3:48:05You can do that for six months.
3:48:06But you can put that fine print in the bottom.
3:48:08print it out, you can still have an effective message.
3:48:24If you put it on television, you might as well not use television at all.
3:48:28You are using television to confess your sins rather than set your problems.
3:48:31You've recognized the toll's off, but basically the problem's how to go about it.
3:48:32Applications have been made to restrict permission.
3:48:34Well, they've not yet applied to that.
3:48:35What problems do you find in such a speech?
3:48:38...regarding these people, times, or by various so-called minority groups, et cetera, et cetera, especially minority groups, is there any focus on...
3:48:54Yes, we are.
3:48:55Okay, what types of groups, like... Common Cubs, an American group, asked to buy time from us.
3:48:58And they bought time?
3:48:58No, we rejected that on the grounds that we...
3:49:00Thought we should not permit just the person who had money to buy time on the air.
3:49:17We do not have policy of selling time to anyone who asked for it.
3:49:21We require that the- We are required to do what we do.
3:49:23But we operate on the basis of facts, and we believe ourselves, and what the facts stop us from there, seem required.
3:49:26to make sure that all sides of Congress could issue a cover on the end.
3:49:37We covered it some time, but we covered exactly the same program the next night, exactly the same length.
3:49:43But in the course of doing that, we get a lot of requests from the Black Caucus.
3:49:45We get some requests from the Republican group that organized a composition of that, and we operate them on a common program, as we did the Black Caucus.
3:49:50of common cause, again, we have a plethora of multi-duplicated requests from the Democratic National Committee to respond to various presidents that you have made, and as the campaign approaches, that will intensify the problem of the FCC, and judging whether or not they are going to get extra time will also intensify time.
3:50:17Do you want to expand on that problem to girls?
3:50:21Well, right now, as you probably know, the Commission is under consideration of three separate petitions from the Democratic National Committee.
3:50:42It's on the case of the interview and Barbara Walters' interview.
3:50:43That's not yours.
3:50:44And they are asking the Commission to adopt a rule every time the president appears on television that
3:50:47folks from the opposing party by who will be given an opportunity to appear.
3:51:08Shouldn't you just have the rules?
3:51:08You just do.
3:51:09Yes, that's what we have always been doing.
3:51:11Now, many different groups have come after us with a variation of the ruling on cigarette curing.
3:51:14Commission rules some years ago that if we broadcast cigarette commercials, we have to make free time available for anti-smoking vaccines.
3:51:35And all of the ecology groups are coming at us now and saying, if you can carry a commercial for automobiles, for automobiles, they call it the air, therefore you must give us free time to present our views on how to combat air pollution.
3:51:42Chevron Gasoline says that it is
3:51:43helping to clean up the air.
3:51:55That's the discussion of a controversial issue that you must give us free time.
3:52:00The President of Arizona was on this.
3:52:02The Commission has turned all these people down, but they've all appealed to the Court of Appeals.
3:52:04And one of the cases is being argued next week, so we're kind of sitting in an anxious seat, waiting to see whether or not the Court approves the Commission's provenance.
3:52:09Who is president from access to the air?
3:52:31I think it's short and simple, but I think you're different.
3:52:32I think you do have a problem.
3:52:33I understand that a lot of people do.
3:52:34You always have a problem.
3:52:35It's hard.
3:52:36You're speaking in a way where you can't do anything.
3:52:37I reckon with regard to a political matter, as long as the president is absolutely...
3:52:39uh, discipline and use it as either a partisan or personal, uh, over time.
3:53:02As far as that, it's very difficult to make a case that, uh, for people not as presence.
3:53:03I mean, otherwise, what are you going to do?
3:53:04You're going to have a situation where you're going to take responsibility.
3:53:06This is responsibility.
3:53:06And I want that any, that any president gets
3:53:09He might get into it as, say, next year's date, maybe not.
3:53:32But he gets into positions where he uses even a press conference to take the time for responding to a question that involves directly an attack by a phone.
3:53:35And then he responds to it, and then he wants to have the time.
3:53:37I will give you that problem.
3:53:42It should be, but I think, as you say, it's time next year.
3:53:48We may have a different kind of problem.
3:53:58If anybody has got a different problem, I'm going to say, if I use the presidential press conference or the presidential appearance as part of the press conference, that's where you want to call the line.
3:54:02Oh, good.
3:54:02Those reporters.
3:54:02Yeah, the camera.
3:54:03Oh, good.
3:54:04I'm not sure that we will, that it will be as easy for us to reject the entreaties of the opposition for time as the campaign goes closer, even though we don't talk about it.
3:54:29Well, we would certainly expect to do no differently now.
3:54:34I open that problem down to you.
3:54:41What I'm talking about, sir, are the regulatory rules that the Commission's adopted, away from Section 315 and away from political, away from campaign partisanship.
3:54:52The Commission required all three networks to give the telegraphs another shot because the President appeared on the air five times on an influential conference.
3:55:21I understand what you say.
3:55:22So you have another problem, too, which you're personally aware of.
3:55:24making your own decision, you've got to be aware of the candidate party situation.
3:55:47Not so much the Republicans.
3:55:47At the present time, you know, Sarah, we have to say the odds are that instead of trying to read, you're likely to have four or five candidates that will be able to take place.
3:55:51I guess it's something that you've got to do nationally with the Republicans and the Democrats.
3:55:54under the law of 315 is passed
3:56:20That's correct.
3:56:30Without having to give the minor parties.
3:56:34I think you would have to give the minor parties some other sort of a document.
3:56:37As a matter of justice, we would do.
3:56:38Yeah.
3:56:38If George Wallace would have had a princess, we would give him some time.
3:56:45The very minor split party candidates, we probably would put on a single program or a public program.
3:56:47Well, I guess that's true.
3:56:47I guess that's true.
3:56:48George Wallace would have had other securities.
3:56:49Well, I think you might have put two, certainly two, two major third parties instead of just one.
3:57:13Even with the repeal of 315, which we were pleased to see soar, which we've always had to see the repeal, I don't think we would put them on nearly to the extent that we would put the major parties on.
3:57:17We would put them on.
3:57:18I don't think there would be a time for Ference if he did that.
3:57:47This idea of taking on the networks, so I would say there's a part of that in the other thing.
3:57:56They've been trying to direct news coverage in their specials, but they've made the issue a hell of a lot bigger than that.
3:58:11And whether that might be, I don't think it's
3:58:13I don't know what it's for.
3:58:32But I can't believe it.
3:58:33The fact of the matter is, yes, it'll be here a while.
3:58:34But there'll be a lot of people on the bus, a hell of a lot of people.
3:58:35They've got to spend a lot of money.
3:58:36And they'll say, well, you know, this is nice.
3:58:37And here it is.
3:58:37We've got a bunch of cars.
3:58:41Okay, just that's what I do.
3:59:01You have, if you're going to free yourself from pollution, there is, you have to give up some of the powers that come.
3:59:03One thing I would suggest, and I feel the world is such a wonderful place, as long as you don't put a gun somewhere on the border, you can bring it, it's brought to your, brought to your attention, and you can talk to it all night long.
3:59:08It's not a discussion, it's a miracle in here.
3:59:09It doesn't need to be said.
3:59:10from literally millions of people in Asia and Latin America, particularly today, and are living weather-wise on a competitive and value-advantaged star basis.
3:59:30And we're going to pull our post-lifetime, also outside of the chemistry of the moon, to keep those two mobile hands, of course, and take the ET.
3:59:33You know, a star, that's really the point.
3:59:34The question of the use of chemical fertilizers, the use of sprays, all that sort of thing.
3:59:51It's a question of balance.
3:59:53Sure, there's an engineer in it, and you apply.
3:59:56The question is, what do you pay in case you don't apply?
3:59:57And you go back.
3:59:58The other one, if you're taking pure ecologists and carriers, your items to the exchange, and you have us all go back to the channel.
4:00:00I was so drunk about that, you know, in those first few seconds.
4:00:03man was an actress, they were not very affable to be.
4:00:26So, we just, it's a, it's not, you know, all of us as people, and it's here that we're being placed in arms.
4:00:28You know, here's this emotional impact.
4:00:29Here's people, you know, they, you know, carry those, I mean, they take the risks and they're essential for progress.
4:00:31And that's what I'm concerned about here in this country.
4:00:33I'm far more concerned
4:00:38We didn't have some bridges.
4:00:53We didn't have those peaches.
4:00:58Or apples.
4:00:59Or what have you.
4:00:59I mean, if you've got those, if you've ever seen them, if you've seen America, if you've made those, if you've seen them, if you've made them, it's natural.
4:01:02I worked on this problem for me.
4:01:03It was not as routine.
4:01:03A few months ago, I went to my mom's to hear about this.
4:01:04I went to see if they ever had a supermarket.
4:01:05Some of the little vegetables they had.
4:01:10Well, I would be very strong.
4:01:19Don't be afraid.
4:01:27Don't be afraid in the public interest to fight or to have some of these people come and take you over, Lord, and this nice stuff.
4:01:33Now, down the steps, on your steps, just as I have on mine, it's the thing these days, the kids coming out of college and universities and so forth, the systems of work that are, they drop everything.
4:01:41all progress is bad, no growth, you know, stop at two, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
4:02:01But anyway, whatever the case might be, at this point, I do feel that, I do feel, that's why I think Weber's talking about the system, which is that we've got two good media, television, and television, and there needs to be a little bit of balance in here.
4:02:09I don't see it all that far along on a program sometimes,
4:02:11Here's a guy who's totally intoxicated.
4:02:26He talks in English and has a Mexican accent.
4:02:27But here it is.
4:02:28It's wise for selections.
4:02:28It's not chemicals.
4:02:29It's DG and the rest of it.
4:02:29It's what you're told.
4:02:30Not in there.
4:02:31It's true that television can have a wonderful beat.
4:02:48We'll have a great amount of hit and ball.
4:02:50We can have a great effect.
4:02:50It gives it balance, you see.
4:02:52But I really think people make mistakes when they look to television to solve the problem.
4:02:54All right, we really can do this.
4:02:54Ruben says television is the transmission of an experience.
4:02:55So many people come to us and say we could only get everybody on television to say this or say that in a certain way.
4:02:58Then we would solve the problem.
4:02:59I think what we can do is...
4:03:00is to reflect the attitudes that exist in the United States, and they change rapidly in the country that they're switched from.
4:03:26Now this here is a hot mess, one year.
4:03:26In fact, that is a change that really is what they were supposed to do.
4:03:28I agree with that.
4:03:28I don't want to decide .
4:03:29That's true.
4:03:29On the other hand,
4:03:30You have to pay for it.
4:03:43It goes into memory.
4:03:56You didn't have to pay for it.
4:04:00Are you concerned about the repression and that sort of thing?
4:04:22So I wanted to speak up on that.
4:04:24Alright, fine.
4:04:30I've talked to him for a few years.
4:04:42He has to take the rest of you, too.
4:04:45We've gone back a long time.
4:04:45I know you always really have.
4:04:46That's a frequent question.
4:04:47We went back to the days of Mr. Harry.
4:04:49It's R. L. Thomas.
4:04:49Yeah.
4:04:50He helped us get our theater excluded from the rights to press and to cover.
4:04:53That was among the first times that we ever had radio microphones in the covers, live, because we didn't have anything else.
4:04:56As a matter of fact...
4:04:58... ... ... ... ... ...
4:05:29I'm far more concerned about that than I'm going in the other direction.
4:05:56And as you tell me, Corcoran didn't have as great of a role as those
4:06:27I would be very strong.
4:06:45Don't be ashamed.
4:06:47Don't be afraid in the public interest to fight for and have some of these people come and take you over, Lord, and this nice stuff.
4:06:50Now, down the steps, on your steps, just as I am on mine, it's the thing these days, kids coming out of college and universities and so forth, the system doesn't work at all.
4:06:54They drop everything.
4:06:56All progress is bad.
4:07:17No growth.
4:07:18Stop at two, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
4:07:19But anyway, whatever the case might be, it doesn't matter.
4:07:20I knew the people.
4:07:20That's why I knew whoever shot me about the system was a citizen.
4:07:21We've got two good people from television and television.
4:07:24And there needs to be a little bit of balance in here.
4:07:25I don't want to sit all night or long on a program or something.
4:07:27They taught us to do it in years, but here's a guy who's totally different.
4:07:39He taught us to speak American, he taught us to speak English, he taught us to speak Mexican accents, he taught us to speak Spanish.
4:07:42But here it is, kids and wives versus the Russians.
4:07:43And it's not chemicals, it's DG and the rest of it.
4:07:44It's the ones that you're told to die in bed on.
4:07:46Then we would solve the problem.
4:08:13I think what we can do is
4:08:15is to reflect the attitudes that exist in the United States when they change rapidly in the country that they're switched from.
4:08:42Now this here is a hot mess.
4:08:42One year.
4:08:43It's bad.
4:08:43It's bad.
4:08:43It's a change.
4:08:43I agree with that.
4:08:44I don't want to decide .
4:08:44That's true.
4:08:44On the other hand,
4:08:45That's what I'm underestimating.
4:09:05You know, it's harder than you think.
4:09:16I mean, it was the thing back then.
4:09:23I mean, not Bison.
4:09:24Yeah.
4:09:24Yeah.
4:09:24But I mean, let me ask you about the, let me ask you this.
4:09:35Are you, I'm sure you're, you know, you're usually concerned about the repression and that sort of thing.
4:09:37So I want you to speak up on that.
4:09:37All right, fine.
4:09:38Here, I want you to feel it.
4:09:38It's not a Paris, but it's a subject.
4:09:40No, I...
4:09:45I've talked to him for a few years.
4:09:56He hasn't said a word to me, too.
4:09:57We have come back a long time.
4:10:01I know you always really have.
4:10:01That's a great little information.
4:10:02It goes way back to the days of Mr. Harry Carnell Thomas.
4:10:04He helped us get our theater excluded from the rights to press and to cover.
4:10:08That was among the first times that we ever had radio microphones in the covers, live.
4:10:11We had to get very much, as a matter of fact,
4:10:14Yes, sir.
4:10:41Well, I say I know you both have that for you.
4:10:52What I would like to mention now is that we are not indeed biased.
4:11:01I know that you've been through a lot of experiences.
4:11:03You've seen a lot of things on television that are like RTV.
4:11:04Well, I think maybe that's the wrong way.
4:11:05It's really the other way.
4:11:06And what Pat said may not reflect back to me what we say on the air.
4:11:17But I really would like to confess to you that we do our best to be fair and objective to everybody.
4:11:25And I don't know any way of doing it in particular, except because we're having to look at what we do on the air.
4:11:27Well, let's just say that we have to do it.
4:11:28When I say that, I don't know.
4:11:30I think it's one thing.
4:11:35I think it's another thing.
4:11:37The first statement is for people who look at the technology program to judge it.
4:12:02I think the most effective way
4:12:07Well, we don't like to think it's a kid.
4:12:33I'll be really honest with you.
4:12:34It makes more sense.
4:12:37Sometimes we think what used to look on a station ground is really a report of a fact.
4:12:51One day, a number of negative facts, facts negative to his cause, and I heard, oh, that's a lie.
4:12:59I think that is the wrong way to look at it.
4:13:01We have proven that as we're working under these seniors, staff, they are highly professional, and we think that they should be regarded as professionals.
4:13:06We make mistakes, and we will always make mistakes, and we make them.
4:13:18It's not with malice or with any attempt to fake it with one side or the other, but sometimes, just as I read the trade press and don't like what they say about SBC, I recognize a view of brutality sometimes.
4:13:26Look at what you see on television and don't like it.
4:13:27But television is here, and it's a fact of life, and it's not going away unless the people who want it are really unsuccessful.
4:13:43And more and more people do, and it depends on the level of newspapers.
4:13:45That's the source of their news, our newspapers.
4:13:47And we do the best we can to make them fair, and legit, and thorough, and accurate.
4:13:50Maybe in some cases what we do is not done with any intent of favoring you or disfavoring you.
4:14:07Oh yes, I think the main problem is that there is this sort of two-way.
4:14:09I think the main problem, the main point that I see is the problem that television has is not as great a problem as the newspapers.
4:14:19It's supposed to be an editorial page, and then it's supposed to be, I don't know, they're going to destroy it.
4:14:40It's the whole time.
4:14:42Ours used to say that the trouble with most people is that they said right about the Secretary of State, they were Secretary of State.
4:14:45So it is, and there's arguments in that.
4:14:45In the cases of television, where, of course, you do have, sometimes, you do have commentary, and it's called so-and-so for blacks,
4:14:49and have had another piece of the next action presented in a way that the individual farms will see.
4:15:06Come on, go to the judge on that.
4:15:06That's something you have to judge on.
4:15:07It's a very, very responsibility because you know that that piece of presented in a way that people watch your reading, watch your television.
4:15:11They get their reasons and their stories.
4:15:17I agree with you.
4:15:35Totally appreciate the two-way discussion.
4:15:37If they have a two-way discussion, we're going to let the public go.
4:15:50I don't know if that's going to happen.
4:15:51The government is like, they're going to have to invest in financing.
4:15:53And if they now talk, and they're not technically buying it, it's easy for others to go and press it.
4:15:55And that is popular, I think, with a lot of agencies.
4:15:58Can we make one point about your CPS?
4:16:12I guess it's a part of that.
4:16:12Yes.
4:16:12Sure.
4:16:13I haven't seen it.
4:16:13Okay.
4:16:14I'm sure it brings to have a chill.
4:16:28I think so.
4:16:28I think we just mentioned one point in reference to your appearances when you appear on the couch.
4:16:35It's the way that you go about it.
4:16:37So we think the way, Ron, that we did last time when you told us that the President wanted you to appear for a press conference on Tuesday and then gave us a couple days to work it out.
4:16:42with networks is absolutely the ideal and perfect way for us to, rather than having a title selected by you or by whoever selected you.
4:16:57And we're notified because sometimes our problems are
4:17:00multiplied by a special thing often.
4:17:09But we recognize the fact, we recognize the fact that it's difficult for all three of us to get together.
4:17:15And we recognize it's frustrating for you to try to get out together.
4:17:19Now I think maybe we should just work on our part, but if we could have that grace of a couple of days to try to get out, it's an improvement for all of us, because otherwise we always wind up at 9 o'clock.
4:17:25And maybe it's
4:17:26It doesn't have to be that negative.
4:17:43To your advantage, it's one of those powers that could be, sometimes, but sometimes it wasn't the other way around.
4:17:46I thought, recently when I did that, I understood it, and I'm interested in this too, that all three of your people, all three networks, they were not cutting the movie or the specials or whatever it was.
4:17:51This was not in the
4:17:52I know, I know.
4:18:10We have, on occasion, selected 9 o'clock because just the circumstances indicated that we should be on time because of your various programming.
4:18:14We're not programming too much for that time, so we've attempted to make it easier on you by selecting a time.
4:18:16Occasionally, but we've tried to get enough time.
4:18:17We've tried to get a lot of overuse and say, why don't we go to the restaurant?
4:18:23Our reporters are on one side of that.
4:18:44We will continue to work with the school here in Ohio.
4:18:45Excuse me, what do you think is the right time?
4:18:46We will always do that.
4:18:47We will have this concentration.
4:18:47And the neighbors are not necessarily against it.
4:18:48We do want to cooperate.
4:18:49We don't care.
4:18:49I also do not use it.
4:19:06I'm aware of the fact that this time it looks like it's, uh, you're going to have to talk to your sister.
4:19:08We already have that for restaurants.
4:19:09Yes.
4:19:09Now that we're talking to you in a restaurant, I'm going to help you.
4:19:11Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,
4:19:19Let me say, I think we've got two different situations.
4:19:38And so we can talk about that.
4:19:39I didn't once think a campaign begins.
4:19:40In other words, once I had one or two party convictions, I may not have had it.
4:19:41Or in that period, you know, I can get past that.
4:19:42Unless there's a news event.
4:19:43The armistice, for instance.
4:19:45You cannot put on any more than you can put anybody on.
4:20:08Then we start to give the time to the other side, because even though the president goes on and talks about the whole nonpartisan subject, it's a presidential process.
4:20:12But for example, you did provide a study that was in the National
4:20:14That's for sure.
4:20:35In 1966, Johnson had a press conference.
4:20:36He goes straight to me on his campaign for Republicans.
4:20:37Because he had made his deal using press conference for the purpose of personal attack, which I had arrived to do, but of course I hadn't learned to respond.
4:20:41And he was on his emergency decision, which was to have our...
4:20:42In that situation,
4:20:43I heard the same thing about the students.
4:21:07Must be the rest of the town.
4:21:07Must be there the last five or the last year or so.
4:21:08If you give me more time, I want you to.
4:21:09You've been very kind.
4:21:10I just leave you with one thing.
4:21:10Let me say one other thing that I think you should know, too.
4:21:12I think that you should have fun.
4:21:13I can assure you that we will not, I will not, I'll be careful, I know your problem, I'll be careful not to lose your voice.
4:21:32And I don't have a problem with that.
4:21:33The second point is that, however, there is one area where I think you've got to go through, where it's important, which is very important.
4:21:36It would be so important that you, who I am, get a quiet girl.
4:21:38And in that case, you're not going to be in touch with me.
4:21:40You've all done that since the night.
4:21:42I don't want you to think that we are complaining about Dave Cooler, but just on that point,
4:22:07It's not a question of being poor, but we have these certain five numbered presuppositions.
4:22:27There's such a thing as that should occur.
4:22:27I realize you don't have any count.
4:22:31We have total control of the time.
4:22:33It should occur during the time of the Apollo slash that.
4:22:34What is this?
4:22:34July 31st.
4:22:34Don't worry about that.
4:22:35No problem.
4:22:35What I'm getting at is that we need to go into the Atlantic.
4:22:41And the one thing that we need, though, that we, I must say, that was just at the very, very highest point.
4:23:07In the event that there is, we can't give much advance.
4:23:08We cannot give any of that exposure to the president.
4:23:09We can't move down.
4:23:10Because they're trying to jeopardize the event.
4:23:11On the other hand, we have one that we've been very fortunate with.
4:23:29We've had conversations with the network to not get out of reach.
4:23:30If you'd like, you know, let's suppose, for example, you had to cover a place where you have this house.
4:23:36Really, it's a couple of minutes of a place somewhere a matter of hours and somewhere a matter of months.
4:23:39Let's take Helsinki.
4:24:01Yes, let's take Helsinki.
4:24:02Helsinki would be a matter of Moscow.
4:24:02Moscow would be a matter of arranging with the Russians.
4:24:03And that's because of their cooperation, because it has to be their equipment.
4:24:05That's wrong.
4:24:05That's the whole point.
4:24:06That's wrong.
4:24:13I don't believe that the trip has ever been the same way, except on the last trip, I think it was some filter down further down in the ranks that perhaps needed to be.
4:24:34And I would have about, let me say that people, I don't know, I was quite candid when they asked me about this trip last week.
4:24:40When I said that I had no trips in mind at this time,
4:24:42I would be less than candid if I were not to say that if we do the balance of this year, there is a possibility that something will happen.
4:25:02But I am sure that we will be able to come out of stuff.
4:25:03Anything that had happened was meant to be a very important thing.
4:25:04And if it was important, it would happen however.
4:25:05That's what we need now.
4:25:06We'd have to get through it.
4:25:07We'd have to get through it.
4:25:07What I meant is that we want to.
4:25:08And I think what we want to do is we'll get through it, not close on it, not kept.
4:25:10I think Rod has a good sense of the number of days it might require us to do this, and we have a long history of teaching things like this class, and it's absolutely vital that we have a simulation long time ahead for us to do it, and some of that is really important.
4:25:34I don't get a lot of gratuitous advice, Mr. President, but I am technically qualified to give you something.
4:25:56Yes, sir.
4:25:56I own the cover of Ellis Chappell's Magnet Center, and I suggest you do what I did and play golf the day before the wedding.
4:25:59I'm sorry.
4:25:59I'm sorry.
4:26:03You say you're my doc.
4:26:12You're my oldest chap.
4:26:13She's the oldest chap.
4:26:15My only doc, so.
4:26:17So we had a wing date.
4:26:20You were lucky to do it.
4:26:22Yeah, it is.
4:26:22Well, I just told him, you're supposed to do it outside.
4:26:28But Todd was supposed to pay us.
4:26:29He asked a lot of questions.
4:26:29In Washington, the days I remember when I used to go to the office.
4:26:31On this 13th, when you come back, I don't know if you must have a quote.
4:26:35Yes, we can.
4:26:40No, he hasn't been robbed of us, but we know he's been robbed of us.
4:26:51But I don't respect the life of us.
4:26:56I don't respect the life of us.
4:26:58Who else is here?
4:26:59Well, I don't know.
4:27:01I'm going to ask Bill Brock a number of numbers of Congress.
4:27:02Have you done anything to gain some of it?
4:27:03But I think the tone has to be set by the President.
4:27:22And I think it is unfortunate that the tone is set that questions the credibility of progressions.
4:27:27And I'm sorry, but I'd like to correct him.
4:27:28If there's anything we can't, that is... Oh, here he is.
4:27:44by the way.
4:28:07Well, I figured you had to do that.
4:28:07I don't know if you can speak to that.
4:28:08I perhaps should be faithful to my lawyers, because I think they're enjoying my submissions.
4:28:10That's what I'm learning.
4:28:11As far as I am concerned, as far as this is concerned, I don't think they'll get you.
4:28:13Well, I don't feel repressed.
4:28:35No, I don't feel repressed.
4:28:36I don't.
4:28:36I see them all the time.
4:28:37They feel completely repressed.
4:28:39I, uh, we start getting out of the office, and we always, uh, just, uh, we do it.
4:28:41Yes, we are.
4:28:41We expect a chance at it.
4:28:44I really need it now.
4:29:02The administration needs it.
4:29:06It's very, very important.
4:29:06As I said, I was quite curious to see how it would be.
4:29:07It's the nature of the office that could be, that might be the question for us.
4:29:09It generally is.
4:29:09It's very smart of them to impose the prices of coffee to the administration by knocking it down.
4:29:13So, what I'm going to do
4:29:14Now, I understand that, and it is because of this illustration.
4:29:30Although, perhaps, all right, in fact, I do have to agree that the, that's, that's, all right, I'm going to watch how you do this.
4:29:32All right.
4:29:44So what I'm really suggesting is that I think you have your situation where no one should
4:30:13No one can be honest, no one can be candid without saying that there is not bias in our schools.
4:30:34Because here, people are, through every question we ask, going to show up.
4:30:36The reason that you as a network expect these kinds of special responsibilities is because of your choice.
4:30:39Also because, as I pointed out earlier, that the fine line, as I mentioned, the very fine line between the facts and the purpose of a law
4:30:45In fact, for the purpose of supporting the opinion already held by the commentator, it's a very big responsibility.
4:31:08I don't change it.
4:31:08I mean, I still pretend.
4:31:09I will always say what I need to do.
4:31:09I can't decide, but I'm going to yield to you, the commentator, and sort of bring it right now.
4:31:11So I would expect you to be different.
4:31:12I'm going to see you.
4:31:12I expect you to trust me.
4:31:13Because basically, you're ideologically different.
4:31:15On the other hand, I don't think we do ourselves any, I don't think there's any service for us to say how much cost there is.
4:31:38That's not true at all.
4:31:39Let me say that we have a large responsibility for that as executives of television.
4:31:40How would you suggest that we would like to do that?
4:31:41We can't do that by ourselves.
4:31:42We do have a power to do that.
4:31:44I was talking to the editor of Publisher, and it turned out that Publisher just wanted a very conservative newspaper.
4:32:04And I was like, well, we have five types.
4:32:05So the editor was impressed, and I hired these guys, and they all disagreed with me.
4:32:07And I said, I'll help them edit, I'll read the article, and so forth.
4:32:09And so what happens is that you've got to expect that bias does show that you've got to expect people, politics, to agree on that.
4:32:31But you can't do that.
4:32:33As far as I'm concerned, I've always said it.
4:32:34People say, oh, I knew it.
4:32:34So in fact, I'm not going to be serious.
4:32:37You're already lying on CBS.
4:32:39I know the entertainment side of how to do the things.
4:33:04And he says,
4:33:06It's not your fault.
4:33:15It's not the fault of any of the executives.
4:33:21It's just a fact of life that journalists by nature have an individual bias because of their interests and they're all nervous and whatnot.
4:33:26That's the thing.
4:33:27It's a train.
4:33:27Whatever biases, all individuals have biases, which is your point.
4:33:29It's true.
4:33:29It's true.
4:33:29But much more than any bias they ever don't have because they made you go there, they made you go there, went to whatever college they went to, and they're all EVs instead of BSers and all that sort of thing.
4:33:36I said, much more important than that is
4:33:37If we're hiring the right people, if they're any good at all, more than whatever their biases are, they are trained reporters.
4:33:48And you wouldn't have all this coming out and let them all just a bunch of jerks.
4:33:55They are, foremost, they're disciplines.
4:33:57You know, professionals, of course, they're disciplines.
4:34:00Those have been trained reporters, and it's just too simplistic for them to say, well, they're all biased and nothing.
4:34:04Your fellas can do that because you're basically a businessman or something.
4:34:24You may have this background.
4:34:25And those fellas just run amok in your shop.
4:34:26There's nothing to do about it.
4:34:26I've never convinced him of a second.
4:34:27I don't think so.
4:34:27I didn't believe the expected one.
4:34:28You can call it whatever you want.
4:34:29It's very important.
4:34:30He's very proud of his profession.
4:34:42And he also knows he's biased.
4:34:45He's just biased.
4:34:45He wants to be known to people.
4:34:46We've had fans.
4:34:46We've had fans.
4:34:46And we have a profession.
4:34:47And we've given games to Ruben.
4:34:50And as I say, as I grow up, we will.
4:34:51But it's difficult for us to...
4:34:52And we would not want that to influence on this thing.
4:35:10I had a conversation like this with the editor of the newspaper, a younger one than the one you did.
4:35:12You're specializing on this.
4:35:13That's the reason.
4:35:13And as far as the Midwest piece, he helped work pretty much, you know, very articulately.
4:35:15He prestates pretty deep on his particular point of view, which was, you are biased now against what the government policies are.
4:35:22And he said, one, you should not question the actions of the government while it is in operation.
4:35:40And I was like, well, you're asking us to manipulate it in the way you'd like.
4:35:44So that is a danger that I advise.
4:35:44Who is the judge?
4:35:45How do you know it should be done?
4:35:45We have no danger, Max.
4:35:50Either way, it turns out that way.
4:36:10No, actually, I think what we have to have in mind is that this will make it the best answers to get the nasty questions.
4:36:12I'm really sorry that you feel it, but you feel it's always going to be that way.
4:36:14What is it that you read?
4:36:14No, I'm not discouraged about it, because it will be that way, I suppose, in the future with others.
4:36:17But the point is that it is a God that's in the center of it.
4:36:19I just think that's part of our system.
4:36:42In particular, if you look at everyone in this office, in America, they disagree.
4:36:43They disagree, for example, with the man.
4:36:44But I think that we have to, in our system, we have to recognize reporters in our institutions.
4:36:46I expect, and we cannot expect a reporter as strong
4:36:48Some people want to shake the world a little bit and say, well, I disagree completely, but I'm going to write it the other way.
4:37:07Because you see, the advantage, the reason no president can ever come to mind is that he has the greater advantage of now and then saying to certain people, if I didn't, I'd be dead.
4:37:12If it hadn't been, and I'll put it that way, you see, without Thomas, I wouldn't be here now.
4:37:16For example, I had to allow the people of this country, and I had to make up their mind about the gains, through an opportunity directly to present its case, so it can come out about me.
4:37:40That's why I said, that's why I've been so careful with that, not to set it up in my own case, but I don't think we should be under illusions that there is not a very honest bias, and so be it.
4:37:45Let it be that way, but that's going to be, that's not a problem, but it is there.
4:38:04And there isn't anything you can do about it, but maybe you can just be proud of it.
4:38:08Well, I would like to be proud of what I'm buying.
4:38:09Thank you, though.
4:38:09Well, I wish you well when you're ready.
4:38:10Thank you.
4:38:15I'm sure that with the help of the NBC crew, which had a gentleman, excuse me, all right, coverage, sanity, will be corrected.
4:38:35He may even help prevent it from raining.
4:38:40We have a marvelous plan for contingency.
4:38:41You're able to do that.
4:38:41Your house is bigger than mine.
4:38:48We're only four o'clock this year.
4:39:09That's who you want to bring in, sir.
4:39:10Well, let's see.
4:39:11We always give... We've got a few cranking up before you go.
4:39:13You'll get a complex.
4:39:14All of you.
4:39:14If you notice, this is the city one.
4:39:15This is the president.
4:39:16Just to show you my lack of ISP, this is the first presidential complex that don't have my name on it.
4:39:21It's worth saying that any person can do it.
4:39:35Thank you.
4:39:38Now, how many of you are golfers?
4:39:46Well, you're all going to help out.
4:39:47Probably one of your advertisers.
4:39:47This is, he made these.
4:39:48It's quite nice with the seal and the signature.
4:39:49And the standard joke is, I'm giving everybody what the vice president wants.
4:39:53These are about this high.
4:40:06I know I've lost all three, but now I'm proving you're wise.
4:40:16These are the same.
4:40:19Oh, that's a good one.
4:40:27You're going to get something.
4:40:40I said, this is a small paperweight.
4:41:00The moment of hatred, yes.
4:41:05Thank you very much.
4:41:26These are our tickets for the day.
4:41:26Marvelous.
4:41:34Thank you very much.
4:41:34Good to see you.
4:41:52It's an argument with Nichols.
4:41:53I hope he's well.
4:41:53Yeah, he must be out of the whiskey business.
4:41:54I mean, whiskey is out there.
4:41:54It was the end of Julian and I had lunch about 66 or so, right?
4:41:56Way back in our future, right?
4:41:57I didn't know I'd be here.
4:42:12I didn't.
4:42:14This way.
4:42:21We're back over at the bridge.
4:42:21I don't know why you wouldn't just stay here.
4:42:22Thank you.
4:42:41What happened, Colson?
4:44:31I thought those guys, they never had it like that.
4:44:53They had never had it.
4:44:54It was funny.
4:44:59That was his little speech.
4:45:05We can do something about it.
4:45:07He was trying to say, I'm sure we can get honest reporters.
4:45:08It was marvelous.
4:45:09But I said there, they know.
4:45:10These guys have got to know.
4:45:14They watch their programs.
4:45:19They watch these press conferences.
4:45:21And everybody, Rockwell, put an article that these reporters should buy.
4:45:25Go out in the press room.
4:45:26Ask that press man.
4:45:27Talk to Bill White.
4:45:27Talk to Neil Scott.
4:45:28Talk to John Scali.
4:45:29I would say, yeah,
4:45:31And, uh, so, and I could just sit there and act as if, well, everything, your spine falls and so forth.
4:45:49It falls.
4:45:49But, you see, they had a code that, the thing that I was, I thought it was effective.
4:45:52It was to get from cold to, you know, because I could sit there and just talk to them quietly, and they knew that I was just, you know, doing, you know, not, you know, not, you know, not, you know, not, you know, not, you know, not, you know, not, you know, not,
4:45:58It was intense.
4:46:02I watched it, of course, and I'll guarantee you that Walter Scott couldn't look at you while that was coming out.
4:46:11He's a gentleman.
4:46:12I like him.
4:46:12He's fine.
4:46:12He couldn't look at you.
4:46:13Julian Wilson was looking at you.
4:46:14I don't think he was believing what he was hearing.
4:46:15His hand was tumbled.
4:46:17But that's exactly the effect that these folks reacted.
4:46:21That's precisely the tone they understand.
4:46:24I just am so thrilled we did it.
4:46:27I mean, they said, oh, it came through.
4:46:29They passed it through to the others.
4:46:31Oh, absolutely.
4:46:32I got that.
4:46:33That just rocks us, guys, because they're arrogantly proud of their cowardly.
4:46:39The point she made is that we've never used the economic leverage.
4:46:51You're a reporter against what I stand for.
4:47:06They're against my foreign policy.
4:47:07They're against what I do with other fields.
4:47:08I understand that.
4:47:09They were against what I did in Washington.
4:47:10You saw it.
4:47:10I said, just as long as I can.
4:47:10I said, look, if I had to be a reporter in the country, if I were a reporter, I wouldn't be here.
4:47:12But you gave me the chance to go there and do the people.
4:47:14Oh, that's just me.
4:47:16When I left here, I couldn't wait to get them out.
4:47:26I wanted to run in and tell them, oh, what a fantastic job you've done.
4:47:33I've been searching for a way that they could better understand the connection between the activists and the reporters.
4:47:37And nobody could have done this as effectively as you did.
4:47:39You did it in a way that was not, that they can't defend.
4:47:41Because what you did was simply say, well, you fellas can't do anything about it.
4:47:43And I'm not holding you accountable.
4:47:44I understand that's the way it is.
4:47:46And they're biased.
4:47:56I'm sure they're biased.
4:48:00And I understand it.
4:48:02And I mean, we can do about it.
4:48:03The point you made about the point you made about their credibility, if they attack your credibility, we'll have a good game to talk about the men who are critical of their credibility.
4:48:10Well, yeah.
4:48:10There's a film they've produced sitting here.
4:48:11Sitting here saying that we attack our credibility.
4:48:12And I said, well, of course you attack ours.
4:48:13What do you expect us to attack yours?
4:48:14I mean, it's a little funny how far I've lied to me.
4:48:15which they ought to take it down.
4:48:27You could present facts and let the viewer make up his own opinion.
4:48:31Or you could present facts that would support your opinion.
4:48:36Now, it's the way they're going to do it.
4:48:36It's the latter.
4:48:37They do it the latter way.
4:48:37They know goddamn well they do.
4:48:38And what's most important is they know, you know, and aren't going to tell us if it fits.
4:48:41And a very cruel, or a lie, would probably die.
4:48:44There are those understandings.
4:48:45Well, the psychology of it is so perfect.
4:48:55I guess you do know Julian Goodwin.
4:49:00He said, when I went to see him in a New York lesson, he had one thing on his desk.
4:49:05He had the inaugural note of the only thing on his desk.
4:49:06And they are arrogant, but at the same time, they're cowardly and secretive.
4:49:08And you just rocked hell with it.
4:49:10He is going to be...
4:49:12super-sensitive to his coverage from here on out.
4:49:20Super-sensitive.
4:49:24And that will go down through the organization.
4:49:27And with the slightest bit, they know that... Well, I did it in a way that they can't go to their headquarters and say, President, you know, I said, look, you're biased.
4:49:33I understand that.
4:49:33I don't mind about what you're saying.
4:49:34And also, you know, it's in the back of the bag for the rest.
4:49:36I think incidentally, though, I think Agnes should lay off the damn thing.
4:49:55He's doing it in too broad a brush.
4:49:56Don't you agree?
4:49:56Oh, well, he's now become white.
4:49:57He's become a broken record.
4:49:58Even in his own constituency, he's lost his credibility because he's saying the same thing.
4:50:01Oh, there it is.
4:50:03I'm all for it.
4:50:05I agree with you.
4:50:05But he's right.
4:50:11That's why we pulled Dole off.
4:50:13I didn't want Dole to lose his convictions.
4:50:20There comes a point when you've made the case that you, and it's also very important that I never take them on.
4:50:29I must say I was greatly tempted to.
4:50:30And Bill White was concerned after this and thought that I shouldn't take them on as reporters when they asked questions in the demonstrations at their time.
4:50:33In retrospect, they've not.
4:50:34There will come a time, another time, when they'll do it again.
4:50:36and frustrated question asked a third time, repeating the answer a third time, finally got that message home.
4:50:56Don't you think so?
4:50:57Absolutely.
4:50:57They were helpful.
4:50:57I could have asked you that question then, but I was over-jewish.
4:50:58But I mean, Bill likes my notes.
4:50:59I should have read them and asked.
4:51:00I should have lectured on those and said, I don't care.
4:51:01You've asked that because it's how I answer you.
4:51:02You disagree with me.
4:51:03Let's go on to the next question.
4:51:03Then you would have lost the... A lot of people...
4:51:05respect for the way you just stayed very calm.
4:51:15I think you'd have lost that thing.
4:51:21And before that, you never know.
4:51:22It's quite nice to change something, right?
4:51:24Showing a little fire.
4:51:24Were you sure of the termination?
4:51:25You said you were very serious.
4:51:27You didn't try to pressure them.
4:51:27You just repeated yourself.
4:51:28I'll tell you, these guys have never had to call to see a lot of that before.
4:51:29I didn't understand that.
4:51:30You know, you had Khrushchev and you had Jessica and what not.
4:51:32You've got to treat the tall characters, and that's what they are.
4:51:52Just cold steel, very calm, very quiet.
4:51:53He said, you know, listen, I deliberately talk to you in very low voices and so forth.
4:51:55He responded to it and said, oh, I understand.
4:51:55We'll say it up next time.
4:51:57I'm kidding.
4:51:58Let's be honest.
4:51:58I don't want to be honest.
4:51:59I don't want you to want me to say something I don't believe.
4:52:00I just don't believe it.
4:52:00I'm going to give you that practice.
4:52:02That gets them, too, because they know that, well, I'm being honest, and that they're not being honest.
4:52:20I'll tell you, I think they at least will report that conversation around their drinking clubs in New York.
4:52:23Of course, you did a good job.
4:52:26will react very sensitively to that.
4:52:42He'll be conscious of that for a long time.
4:52:43And he was head of the news out here.
4:52:46And he's basically a newsman.
4:52:47And he is very, very biased and self-righteous in the objectivity of coverage.
4:52:49NBC is the most biased of the networks.
4:52:51Also, CBS has been worse in the war and more effective.
4:52:53NBC is more biased.
4:52:53NBC has been very tough on us in the economy.
4:52:54But NBC
4:52:55Well, like CDS, they'll go through phases, for instance.
4:53:18You can tell when they're reacting, when they're sensitive.
4:53:19But you build up in that dispute.
4:53:20I didn't know it was kind of active, really.
4:53:22Well, I just decided to bring it up because we talked about everything, and I was on their side on advertising.
4:53:35I am.
4:53:36I think it's silly to give equal time on advertising.
4:53:39I think it's silly for the FTC to do it, of course.
4:53:42In fact, it's silly to do it, Chuck.
4:53:45It's wrong.
4:53:46That's the wrong approach.
4:53:48Would you see if that meeting is going to go on at 5.15 or whatever?
4:53:49They're going to be delayed enough.
4:53:50I don't understand anything.
4:53:52The FTC is out of our control, believe me.
4:54:07That's a target.
4:54:08But my point is, we're not going to do anything.
4:54:15I think it's wrong.
4:54:15I do think our television, I've seen all the foreign broadcasts, they aren't worth a damn.
4:54:17I think public broadcasting is a disaster right here.
4:54:18I told Paul to drop it over the side.
4:54:19We're changing the people in that.
4:54:19Well, I don't want to change the people, Chuck.
4:54:21All I can do is to get rid of the goddamn thing.
4:54:22I mean, how the hell can you
4:54:23How the hell can you?
4:54:35We've been changing people there for years.
4:54:41I'd rather get rid of it.
4:54:42You know, we've been increasing it a damn bunch of times.
4:54:44It makes no sense at all.
4:54:45But I want to be sure, I know, you follow up again.
4:54:46I spoke to Hall and I said you could follow up on that.
4:54:47I want that budget cut.
4:54:47I don't want it decimated.
4:54:48But they screw us every time they go on.
4:54:49They put fire in the ground, shooting all those goddamn clowns on there.
4:54:53To your question, my breathing will probably be delayed until 5.20 a.m. early.
4:55:16I believe all signs and signals spoke to me earlier regarding photogravity.
4:55:18I think when I'm on the max, it's like, and the schedule is for a long-term course.
4:55:20So it's closer to the time of, we were 10 minutes.
4:55:21We want to be 10 minutes later, 5.10.
4:55:22So now if I was over 5.10, we have a 50-day period.
4:55:23It just won't take long.
4:55:24Well, let's be sure I don't leave a good picture, so find out how long they need.
4:55:42As much time as we need, I'll take it.
4:55:42I want to be sure that you have a good photo of my shoes for the picture.
4:55:44If you want us to try it again, we'll come here and see what happens.
4:55:52They will.
4:55:58You just say it.
4:56:03You can talk to him.
4:56:06When he does talk to the president, the president is sorry about it.
4:56:11He's asking you to look into it.
4:56:13You know he's an independent agent, this and that, but he's very interested in this thing.
4:56:17Keep us posted.
4:56:17Give him a little bit of bullshit.
4:56:21We'd like to keep posting on this site and so forth.
4:56:37We've got to work.
4:56:38We've got to get it done.
4:56:38I made a very good deal with this.
4:56:39They might do a little something for us.
4:56:40They've got a friend in the business.
4:56:41They have.
4:56:41I'm the only friend in the goddamn business world that ever happened to me.
4:56:43It's going to be funny to cover it up as much because the thing that's killing them is the
4:56:46It's the demands of the conservationists for time on all of these.
4:56:56They ought to put a fellow like Borlaug on there.
4:56:59They've created this ecology issue by putting on these crew balls.
4:57:02Really, they ought to put some people on and say, look, the cost of this when you want to go back to that in this natural state.
4:57:07Jerry Reavers, though, you know, is always that good little model we have.
4:57:12People met in their natural state.
4:57:18Well, you did that superbly, but I just, it was sitting, I was sitting there.
4:57:30I got that in actual conferences a lot, so I had a lot of practice.
4:57:33It was just, it was such a perfect crew to do it with.
4:57:36You filled up the whole aisle of the proceeding.
4:57:40It was such a very low-key deal.
4:57:41And you gave me the opening, and he took it.
4:57:44And I thought he was going to squirrel this complaint and have you say, well done.
4:57:47Let's just not go with it.
4:57:51We're sorry.
4:57:52We're sorry.
4:57:57We won't do it.
4:58:03I think the president ought to stop these people from doing anything.
4:58:05Can he stop them?
4:58:06I mean, frankly, Chancellor Hill, I'm not going to prejudice him.
4:58:07I will.
4:58:07Let's not get ourselves into that question.
4:58:08Once you've got that space, you don't mind us.
4:58:11It's got to take a ton of the shell to understand it, but I think he's learned about it.
4:58:25I know he's coming around to it.
4:58:26He's silly enough to see it.
4:58:29He knows how to get something out, and how they screw us.
4:58:32And in a sense, he's up to it.
4:58:33He just heads out with the wires, which is good, but he knows that the networks are wrong.
4:58:36Oh, I think Skelly's a great find.
4:58:37Great find.
4:58:37He's getting the president done his point.
4:58:38He's done the right thing.
4:58:39And when it's in the plan, it's only in the plan.
4:58:40We do get to it.
4:58:42We may not, we may not take it.
4:58:53But Scali will be absolutely indispensable.
4:59:01The normal city will be much more effective and safer, because he knows the issues, and Safer does not.
4:59:04Scali will work with them.
4:59:05I mean, he'll love it.
4:59:06Did Bob, speaking of the biases, did Bob come and tell you about the vaccination on Sunday?
4:59:10We had our young people.
4:59:10No, the young veterans and their mom.
4:59:12Well, he and Tony McDonald, who had two Vietnam veterans, were on, but George Sherman, Bruce Morton, CBS, started burrowing in so hard that halfway through the program, they stopped and apologized.
4:59:33They said, we want to be sure that the people realize that we're not against the American soldiers just because we keep asking them these tough questions.
4:59:38Oh, crash.
4:59:39But as so, it was superb, Mr. President.
4:59:40These boys, if I don't feel this at once,
4:59:42The American fighting hand at the event supports the president.
4:59:55He said it 18 times, and he talked about the success of the organization.
5:00:00If there weren't other war crimes, gosh, he was great.
5:00:02We've got him on that.
5:00:02And he looked just marvelous.
5:00:04We've got him on the Kevin show.
5:00:04We've got him Thursday night.
5:00:05We've got him on the Today show.
5:00:06I try to just get equal time.
5:00:07Well, why not?
5:00:08You know, another thing that I expect from these networks, those factors are trying to lay the foundation for getting equal time to the Democrats.
5:00:12the presidential press conferences.
5:00:24And I put it to them, I said, now you treat them the same way you treated us, and they got that signal.
5:00:28I want them to know.
5:00:29Oh, yes, they said, yeah.
5:00:30But you know, then they went on to say, well, next year it's going to be hard.
5:00:32I said, yes, it's going to be hard.
5:00:33But I said, I said, I looked right back at it, and I said, you know that I am very careful.
5:00:36I said, if I ever take a man on personally, or if I make a partisan point, you owe the people time.
5:00:40But I said, I'll never be so stupid to give you that chance.
5:00:41You know, thank God for that.
5:00:42If they have that point, and not to, I don't know how bad you think it would be, they'd back down completely.
5:00:59The newsmen, they don't, you know very well why the newsmen are trying to force me to tell you this.
5:01:05The newsmen know the minute I start to think, why doesn't it do it for public politics, for media, but second, it raises equal time.
5:01:08I don't need a question.
5:01:09I'm not going to respond to any question about McCoskey or McGovern or Happy or anybody.
5:01:11I'm just not going to say a word.
5:01:13Of course, the newsman, I want to thank you at that point, because giving you the price and images is hard.
5:01:33Try it.
5:01:33Try it.
5:01:33They'd love to do it.
5:01:34They'd love to do it all of us.
5:01:34But they did.
5:01:35That wants to do it very quickly.
5:01:36I will say one thing about ABC.
5:01:36They have been fairly consistent, legal.
5:01:39CBS has given us the greatest difficulty on this.
5:01:40Final question.
5:01:40ABC has given us terrible trouble on one occasion.
5:01:43And these things, as you well know, the question is not time.
5:01:57No, it's not.
5:01:58As you well know, the question is approaching the eyebrow.
5:02:00The question is, you know, they all said you ought to see our news programs.
5:02:02They don't want me to look at their news programs.
5:02:03And I don't really see the bias, because they do show their bias of how they look and stare and snarl around.
5:02:05But I just read it, see what I mean?
5:02:06And for that reason, I have a very detached view.
5:02:08And that's the fairest way to treat the numbers.
5:02:09to read what they're saying.
5:02:14Do you agree?
5:02:19Absolutely.
5:02:19I've actually read cold, hot words.
5:02:21Sure.
5:02:23I hope that it grows me, and he'll ask me, well, what does the president talk about?
5:02:28Because I have examples that he can't challenge, and I would just say, if you're asking me, the fact is that when unemployment goes down by two-tenths of one percent, we get 30 seconds buried in the program.
5:02:37When it goes up by one tenth of one percent, it's a three minute lead, isn't it?
5:02:52All right, let me give you a better chance this week that I can agree with you on that.
5:02:54That's the law since October 1965.
5:02:55In other words, we finally wrote a plan for the first half of the global climate.
5:02:57Nineteen, Chuck.
5:02:57Now that...
5:02:58These sons of bitches have run headlines and everything else.
5:03:09They said the cash was highest in three weeks, you know, maybe even some proof of that by.
5:03:12Now it's the 19th.
5:03:13I'll lay you a money deal.
5:03:14We'll drop that out of the news.
5:03:15We can drop it off or just put it to the cliff.
5:03:16But the point is, on this one, I've got a real record to make, and I work on a scalator.
5:03:19You've got to remember, you should talk to a scalator.
5:03:21See how Scali can get that.
5:03:27I want that hit in the networks.
5:03:29I want to get it compressed, compressed.
5:03:35But here the president can't prove right.
5:03:39He said taxes would go down as the models they have.
5:03:41Get my point?
5:03:42Yes, sir.
5:03:42That's a great figure.
5:03:42Nineteen.
5:03:43Nineteen.
5:03:43It is a great figure.
5:03:45You see, last week it would have been about $16,000.
5:03:48What happened?
5:03:48The week before, $24,000 was.
5:03:49All three of them were scared of the 24-feet because they didn't get much play.
5:04:13This one they should get some play too.
5:04:14This one they should get some play.
5:04:15But I think this is one that's a hell of a figure.
5:04:16We've got to find a way, like I said, I think there should be some guys in Congress
5:04:19about this, and I don't want to lay it to the band, because I don't actually have a reason not to do it, but I think some guy shouldn't do it, hit it in the floor, you know.
5:04:43So I called two of your deaf best guys, about a night before, and he had just got sprayed, and I didn't close, you know, five and a half years, as the president said about, also to do sarcasm, and rejections, and that,
5:04:50The Vietnam issue is fading now, but maybe some.
5:05:13This is all the way to the war, as people are saying.
5:05:14Hardly can you keep it alive in 1910.
5:05:20They're putting out a big push this week to get Ted Field and McGovern passed.
5:05:28I think they're passing.
5:05:29Well, Maxfield says that they haven't changed a single vote, and they won't.
5:05:36And I don't think they're passing, Maxfield.
5:05:37We won that by 60%.
5:05:56We need to adjust to the feelings, and I'm sure Jim, I don't think this is going to be our most encouraging conversation.
5:06:19Yeah, we see.
5:06:19Who do you want?
5:06:20Well, the question is, who do you want?
5:06:20Who?
5:06:20I mean, it was just a little bit of a school nap, and I said, you know, the president called over to call me, and he said, let's talk a little bit about this repression business.
5:06:24Repression?
5:06:24Of the networks?
5:06:25No repression.
5:06:25The administration is repressing it.
5:06:28You know what I mean?
5:06:50Holy shit.
5:06:51I know you're biased.
5:06:51You think we're all biased.
5:06:52We're both biased.
5:06:52We're both biased.
5:06:53I think they're inquiring where he's dead.
5:07:25They could see, as I said, that I didn't give a damn.
5:07:33I don't care about their reporters.
5:07:43I don't care what they say.
5:07:44You can't do anything about it.
5:07:45As long as you give me an answer to the law, I don't care what you say.
5:07:48I just say that.
5:07:48That's the reason about these bastards.
5:07:49They would like to deter me to be like Johnson.
5:07:52Because the other people are biased.
5:07:53They can't help me.
5:07:54Did they respond at all?
5:07:57Goodman's right hand was trembling.
5:08:01And as the president was going out, the president said, he said, even though I understand you can't be advised, he said, I'd like you to be profitable.
5:08:14Goodman said, we wish we could be profitable and advised.
5:08:16And I'm sorry, I did want to know.
5:08:17I said, look, I should let you tell you this.
5:08:19If I had had very much upon what you're, what the press,
5:08:22how they would let me into the country, I wouldn't be here today.
5:08:36I would often take a 52, and often get a 56.
5:08:37I would never survive to this time, only because I've been able to go to people's homes.
5:08:41You may read that same thing in Time magazine, because I said it to the Time people who are doing this.
5:08:45They're doing a cover story on communications or some damn thing.
5:08:46You made the same one.
5:08:48I said exactly the same thing.
5:08:49I said, what in the world do you mean?
5:08:50I said, I mean exactly that.
5:08:52He said, well, let me be sure I understand what you're saying.
5:09:00I said, do you understand what I'm saying?
5:09:08I went through the whole thing.
5:09:10I said, it's perfectly understandable.
5:09:12I'm not criticizing the law.
5:09:14You're...
5:09:15group are basically dedicated liberals who honestly believe the opposite of what the president honestly believes.
5:09:21So I can understand why you're against them.
5:09:24I'm not criticizing you for it.
5:09:29I'm merely stating a fact.
5:09:29The point of the person in government was wrong and kept twisting.
5:09:33He said, we've never used the economic leverage of government against you.
5:09:38We won't, of course, but...
5:09:45If you hit it, it will go back to the head.
5:10:00That's a good deal of blood running.
5:10:03But I think what was happening more than anything else in the country was the style of it.
5:10:04It was such, it was absolutely, for Texas, it was an absolutely cold declaration as if I just cut a piece of meat up.
5:10:07And that's why I told them, I told them I was going to show a bit of temperance.
5:10:09See, all the way to the end on the tongue, that's another reason they didn't, that's another reason they didn't.
5:10:12They know they've been through something.
5:10:29Those guys.
5:10:30They walk out of here.
5:10:30Oh, they'll squeal and whine.
5:10:31Wrong.
5:10:31I'm wrong.
5:10:31Terrible to worry about.
5:10:32I've heard really, really impressive sometimes.
5:10:33Did Ruben Frank respond at all, or did he just sit there?
5:10:35He said he was a little bit of disbelief.
5:10:37I said, I don't want to say that.
5:10:37I just want to be perfectly honest.
5:10:38That's all I want.
5:10:41They just don't want us.
5:11:01They can't do what they're trying to do.
5:11:04They just don't want us.
5:11:04They can't do what they're trying to do.
5:11:05Did you notice when you were handing out the...
5:11:07Because he reminded Goodman of that lunch that he'd had with him and Nichols three or four years ago, which just hasn't been six years ago.
5:11:23And the president said, I never thought I'd be here then.
5:11:25And Goodman, just like a little boy, said, I did.
5:11:26He's just a goddamn anxious dude.
5:11:26That's the typical New York, but that's the way they do.
5:11:28They all bend down and drop your pants and let me kiss it for you.
5:11:34But I will guarantee you that they are headed back to New York on their corporate jet tonight
5:11:37will be in those offices looking at their logs and their time and their calendars and who they've turned down from the administration for coverage.
5:11:46Do they have it?
5:11:49I got into another interesting thing with the time guy.
5:11:52He was pushing on why is the administration so always accused or reported as being so public relations oriented and
5:12:02so many public relations people.
5:12:03And I said, well, first of all, that's ludicrous.
5:12:05There's only one public relations man in the whole White House area, as far as I know, and that's Bill Safar.
5:12:12And he's not really a public relations man.
5:12:13He's a political man.
5:12:17And he said, well, what about Colson and Dick Moore?
5:12:21And I said, well, those two both, you happen to have hit pretty badly there because they're both lawyers.
5:12:27kind of looked surprised.
5:12:28He said, is Dick Moore a lawyer?
5:12:29And I said, yeah, he's a lawyer.
5:12:31And then he was a television station president, management man.
5:12:35He's never been in public relations, never had an I.O.
5:12:38to the public relations.
5:12:39Chuck Colson's been running a law firm all his life.
5:12:42He has never had one day of public relations experience.
5:12:48And I explained the difference between advertising men and public relations men and men.
5:12:51He went to all the J. Walter Thompson people and I said, that's a lot of bullshit.
5:12:53In the first place, those people were J. Walter Thompson because I met them in a political campaign and hired them.
5:13:01And they only returned to government.
5:13:03They're here because they're politicians, not advertising.
5:13:06Because they've been involved with us in a political campaign and been so outstanding that I took them into my company.
5:13:11Secondly, advertising men are not public relations men.
5:13:13I explained the difference in that to him.
5:13:15And he said, well, why did they say that?
5:13:17I said, I honestly believe that the only reason is probably because it's a convenient way of explaining why the president has been so tremendously successful without giving the president any credit for it.
5:13:31And it therefore satisfies the need to admit to success but not give any credit for succeeding.
5:13:39And he just write that down.
5:13:42I said, why don't you put that down?
5:13:45And so he said, I will.
5:13:48He wrote it down.
5:13:51There's been no image-making at all.
5:13:53It's absolutely true.
5:13:54We don't have any image-making people here at all.
5:13:57The image is made solely by the television, press conferences, by the public appearances, period.
5:14:02That's it.
5:14:04Nobody goes out and pimps the line.
5:14:05Then he said, well, what about Ray Price and Herb Klein and Pat Buchanan and all those people?
5:14:11And I said, well, you've hit it again.
5:14:12You've named three newspaper men.
5:14:16None of them have had one day of public relations experience at all.
5:14:22I'm also all over not writing on public relations.
5:14:26None of that has anything to do with public relations now.
5:14:29I'm not advising you on public relations.
5:14:30Nor does anybody else.
5:14:34There is nobody who advises you on public relations.
5:14:41Never will be.
5:14:41Where has it been?
5:14:41Were you able to get it?
5:14:42There's been a few that have tried.
5:14:43Press conference, preparations, and things like that.
5:14:44They weren't interested in that sort of thing, I suppose.
5:14:49He's...
5:14:50I'm all ecstatic about how great you are at press conferences.
5:14:55I don't know whether that's what he's showing out to me or whether it's going to be in the archive.
5:15:04Well, I'll tell you this.
5:15:05We can go.
5:15:06You and Bob, you would have enjoyed this.
5:15:08We have put these people in the store.
5:15:10I would have enjoyed it.
5:15:11I would have loved to have been here.
5:15:11You'll be here.
5:15:12You'll be here.
5:15:12This is just to be sure you don't back up anything.
5:15:15Because the point is, I know exactly what I was doing.
5:15:16And I had to do it.
5:15:16I didn't want to have the three networks go through without them and I was there.
5:15:19They're all this repression and all the crap.
5:15:31I said exactly the same things I don't want to say on national television.
5:15:34But boy, this is guilt test.
5:15:36Boy, it counts.
5:15:36Boy, they were, when I got through with them, they knew that I, I said, you're biased and I know it.
5:15:39You're going to continue to be.
5:15:39And we're going to get into the beach.
5:15:40Yeah, he said, every, he said, I don't see that your people are ideologically opposed.
5:15:42He said, I don't hear about it.
5:15:43He said, I don't hear about it.
5:15:45Yeah.
5:15:56Go.
5:15:57He said, we do the trainings.
5:16:08These are professional men, and they are trained to be objective.
5:16:12Now, you saw that.
5:16:13Go to this guy down here.
5:16:15Sure.
5:16:15I was wondering if I could have said, well, Capo is a subjective thought.
5:16:19He is, except in civil rights.
5:16:19No, sir, don't do it.
5:16:20He is an objective and civil rights justice, Capo is.
5:16:22for example, on civil rights.
5:16:29He goes completely overboard.
5:16:35He can't speak.
5:16:37He's blind.
5:16:38Now, he's very objective on other things.
5:16:44I think sometimes we don't talk about coming.
5:16:46I don't think the way they do it is the way they do it.
5:16:49He doesn't whine.
5:16:51way, I'm afraid.
5:16:55But I don't, I weren't the only one in charge.
5:17:01He was the son of a .
5:17:01Because this was a, you ought to tell Henry, he'll love this.
5:17:04He'll love it.
5:17:04He'll love it.
5:17:05He'll just love the way we handled the breeding, the test with a couple of them.
5:17:11And you'll understand, they conquered it.
5:17:17But the whole point is that they, we sat there and we just put them a dice up in the back.
5:17:19cold, strong, keeping the draw in.
5:17:35They got through.
5:17:37They went through a battle.
5:17:39I couldn't believe it.
5:17:41I was just sitting here in the state of Texas.
5:17:43I kept watching.
5:17:45Every time you tore in, the right hand was there.
5:17:46I think it sounds a lot better.
5:17:46I don't watch that coverage.
5:17:47Nevertheless, I don't want any of these people, the art members, to think of fighting
5:17:54but I've never, I've never loved a son.
5:18:15Here you go.
5:18:15Yes, sir.
5:18:15Yes.
5:18:15Yes.
5:19:43I'll tell you something, Chuck Colson said it's necessary that you've got a piece of art.
5:20:04Well, I think it was good work.
5:20:04It was really good for me to do it for my own self-respect.
5:20:06I did have one.
5:20:06Well, like I said, I just, you're not going to sit there day after day after day, week after week, taking that shit from the press, just being abused, and never saying anything about it.
5:20:16And it was needed to be said, and I said it nicely and done.
5:20:29Lay it right there.
5:20:31I'll even lay.
5:20:32But you see, we cannot be so dishonest, Bob.
5:20:36We cannot be so dishonest and be shot with our own selves.
5:20:39I'd say this to Herb, and I'd say it to Scali, and I'd say it to Ron, to say that the press is fair, tries to be fair.
5:20:44They are not.
5:20:45They're trying to screw us.
5:20:46And it's more than they try to screw others because they disagree.
5:20:51Correct?
5:20:54Not personal.
5:20:55They're violently opposed.
5:21:00They're a nice hand for us.
5:21:02Correct.
5:21:03And that is it.
5:21:03It's a...
5:21:03So why, why, why, why are you emotional about it?
5:21:06Also, I think they're stronger against you because they know that you're more effective in doing what they don't want done.
5:21:13I'm a formidable adversary.
5:21:14Right.
5:21:14I think so.
5:21:15I think it really bothered them, I must say.
5:21:22I don't know whether to check it.
5:21:28I really think they were more bothered by the fact that I was so goddamn cold about them.
5:21:38Cold, smiling all the time.
5:21:38You know, how bad it is.
5:21:39I was just cold, a soft voice.
5:21:39Oh, I just gave it to them, up and down, on the side, and sliced them up.
5:21:41It was about time.
5:21:41It was time to end.
5:21:42What happens is this, that our other people have to go in.
5:21:44Sucker.
5:21:44I know we all cry and complain about this or that, but generally you're fair and Agnew is sort of in charge.
5:21:56I didn't apologize for Agnew, not a bit.
5:21:58I didn't apologize for the old man and all the rest of it.
5:22:02I just said, well, now, you just might want to give your ability without having yours in charge.
5:22:04Well, they know down deep that you're right, too.
5:22:07They have it.
5:22:08Sure.
5:22:12Well, I can't do what my son's graduation is.
5:22:14My son was out with his daughter, Patty.
5:22:16And I said, that was Saturday, and they had a damn good front page Saturday.
5:22:21They had that big picture of who's this Curtis Tarr knocking that kid down.
5:22:27And then they had a good story on the economy.
5:22:31They had the figures on the unemployment.
5:22:34They had the figures.
5:22:35They played it the right way.
5:22:39And some other good story.
5:22:41I said something about, I was kidding.
5:22:42It was kind of...
5:22:43We enjoyed reading your paper this morning for a change.
5:22:53And he laughed and he said, you know, I know exactly what you mean.
5:22:58It must be depressing as hell to pick up our paper every morning for you.
5:23:01I said, it normally is.
5:23:03But today, for some reason, you had a couple good stories.
5:23:05And he said, well, we had a fight on that economic story.
5:23:06Mark Rowland said we were doing something wrong.
5:23:07And the guy that wrote it said we should present it this way.
5:23:10And we fought it through.
5:23:11And I put it in this way.
5:23:12And this is the essence of it.
5:23:13any question about it.
5:23:15The Starz played it wrong.
5:23:17The Starz and I before played it badly.
5:23:19The Starz were very bad on economic.
5:23:22Always bad.
5:23:23They never failed.
5:23:24And they always played down our game against them.
5:23:28Consistent.
5:23:31Just like NBC.
5:23:32NBC is always bad on economic.
5:23:34Worse than they are on war.
5:23:37CBS had worse on war.
5:23:41Well, I made a prayer.
5:23:49I said, I don't mind.
5:23:51I said, but listen, I'm kidding each other.
5:23:53I said, they are.
5:23:53I said, I know.
5:23:54You can't think about it.
5:23:54That's what God said.
5:23:55I said, I don't mind it.
5:23:56I know it.
5:23:56I'm not complaining about it, boys.
5:23:57There it is.
5:24:00God damn, that kills me.
5:24:03I said, you're biased.
5:24:04I want you to do something about it.
5:24:05It's all much better.
5:24:07Yeah, well, then they could have leaped up and said, well, you know, that's a terrible thing.
5:24:14The president's telling us how to run the network.
5:24:16You didn't tell her that, did you?
5:24:17I didn't try to tell her.
5:24:24You commiserated with them in the following day.
5:24:27That's good.
5:24:27We're friendly in those people.
5:24:28Sure, sure.
5:24:28They all have lunch together.
5:24:31I should keep you out of your mind just talking to your employers about this.
5:24:32I didn't say, oh, yes, we do.
5:24:33I didn't say it.
5:24:42I said, I remember in 66 I got one.
5:25:09You easily have the R, and I said, I've never, right?
5:25:29It was the algorithm, a little football game, but I said, but I will take that in, and then I'll talk to it.
5:25:31So then he tagged me personally in a press conference.
5:25:32That's what he did.
5:25:33I said, I'm not going to make that decision.
5:25:33If I do, you give people time.
5:25:34But that's the only basis for giving time.
5:25:35I don't have a chance on that, too.
5:25:36Why bullshit about that?
5:25:36Are you going to close it?
5:25:37Absolutely, guys.
5:25:39They might put us at 11 o'clock at night or maybe noon.
5:25:56Fine.
5:26:01We're going to do just what we want to.
5:26:09Mr. President, there are, well, Mr. Peterson is likely to come now and do it, but there will be no senators present.
5:26:32They're on the Hill for the two who voted on the out amendment.
5:26:36And out of the 30 members who were invited, 20 are present today.
5:26:38Just do the housework.
5:26:43The senators are not having it at all.
5:26:44Not at all, Senator.

Colson & Sanchez on White House press relations and media bias

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Also recorded on June 8, 1971

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