Conversation 517-004

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Well, you know, it's going to be a great wedding.

It will be beautiful, sir.

Damn rain, better not knock the rain, will you?

Well, you know, that's... That you have me in to leave the church.

Leave the church, you know.

Oh, oh.

Oh, yes, uh... No, at least give me the chance, sir.

No, at least give me the chance, sir, right?

If you can be quiet, watch the light.

Uh, and you better report this to the people, the whole weekend, sir.

It's gonna be hot.

It's gonna be cloudy in the high 80s.

It's probably won't be so bad if it's sunny in the high 80s.

There you go.

From where?

They graduated from elementary school?

They graduated from elementary school.

She's not old.

She's twelve.

She's the older girl, the stronger.

So we're a Catholic family.

No, but you know, they get married.

Oh, yes.

Well, we didn't.

We didn't.

We didn't create a whole hell of a history.

I wrote the history of the class.

Okay.

And I stopped through New York to see my parents were going away on Sunday, the year, the way back.

Four days.

And then I stopped by some other place where Alfie Trey dropped in.

Was it the house of, what is her name, Molly?

I just stopped in for a drink, and he is down on Clifford in a way that is good.

Did you see Larry O'Brien today?

No.

leading front-page story in the Pearson Science Monitor today, attacking.

Goldgrind did the sperm breakfast yesterday, and he said, President Nixon deserves credit for getting us out of Vietnam.

It will not be an issue in 1972.

He whacked Kennedy for saying that you were making it a... Kennedy's attack on you was a personal attack on the president.

where he said that you were using Vietnam as a political thing, and in effect, he said you are continuing the war so that you will have it next year, so that you can pull it out next year.

Yes, exactly.

That's what he said.

What else?

That's the thing you were, that's the thing Doa went and won.

Doa did.

You were going to win.

That's exactly what he said.

He said, I will deliberately prolong the war so we have it next year.

How unbelievable.

Walter Cronkite and Punxsutawney were there, and somebody said that wasn't Ziegler a little hard on Clifford, and Johnson started roaring hard on Clifford.

Clifford goes off the burning tree after popping off, and the president has to sit in his office and pick up the mess.

And he said, do you really believe that the president isn't talking to Hanoi?

Are you all that stupid?

And he was really passionately defending you.

Well, he knows damn well we are.

And also Johnson's just smart enough to think something could be going on.

Well, I think that Clifford has hurt himself with this.

I have yet to find it.

I don't see the monitor here, which is not particularly...

It's been good, but most of it, it took Clifford's plan on in a nice gentle way today.

I haven't found one senior newsman who, or any newsman, who...

No, no.

Well, that's why I had planned to go to New York, and originally because Hans Salzberger wasn't supposed to be in town, and then he was in town, so I saw him at that reception.

And I talked to Frankl on Wednesday here, and I talked to Henry Hubbard.

Yes.

And to Dan Roth, and Dan Roth was pretty good on television about it.

I always say to them, look, we have perhaps one more shot at negotiating with Hanoi.

We don't want to negotiate with Clifford.

We want to negotiate with Hanoi.

That's a good line, I noticed.

Well, it all fell together beautifully.

This one Queens thing.

Yeah, I don't have any questions on Queens.

Well, that's up and down.

And then Bruce raising the point yesterday.

Bruce made a good comment.

I think there's a strong feeling that all these people, that if we're going to equilibrate, we should equilibrate with the food stable or secretly with the government.

But next, not with Clark Clifford or some

loose-ended congressmen, and all these fringe people keep running over there and talking to people and coming back with these great peace hopes that never pan out.

And as long as we're shooting that thing down, it's going to be a spurt.

I'm here to tell you the chances for peace talks.

No, I think that... Let me tell you a couple of what we have to talk about.

So I had to write this and I caught it because I was waiting to get a referral.

But the main purpose was to talk drugs.

He didn't put it.

We're going to have a meeting.

We're recalling the five ambassadors for a meeting on Monday.

They're not calling laws back, are they?

No, no, no.

Why is that guy just like a pretty great guy?

I couldn't believe my ear, it's all over the blue.

With Rogers, Vietnam, he looked up at me.

My God, I don't know whether he's seen Larry's memo, maybe reacting to it, but he was, he talked with, he brought it up, I didn't bring up Vietnam at all, I didn't want to bring up the goddamn subject.

And Rogers jumped in there and he said, you know, he said, I've got a press conference with Lance here.

I'm going to take on this Peel-August-Young-Pervert forward crawl.

He said, we can't lose 45,000 people.

And then just make a deal on Peel-August.

Well, Christy sounded like a peacock, you know.

I just can't.

I don't know what the hell he's talking about.

Dr. Rogers, I think maybe the press has been talking to him a little bit.

He was going to cast an edge on the press, but he had it straight in his eyes, and I think he ought to do it.

I almost think that we ought to get him to resign.

Maybe we ought to get a line on that.

He would be preventing the war.

That's all there is to it.

Well, it'd be hard to fight.

It'd be a hell of a lot better not to have to fight.

But as Phil said, if you've got 400 men, I've got 300 men.

It's three months casualty.

It's a four months casualty.

And they're still alive.

Yeah.

They will eventually get out if they don't starve.

That's the difference.

But you sure as hell aren't going to throw him in the towel now.

What he was all about was Connelly.

He was all upset because Ross Perot has hired 10, 10 and 12, 707 of us.

707.

He's going to fly 1,000 people over to do something about the P.O.W.

Well, he's such a stutter.

I almost, I think this.

I think we all ought to cool off and talk about it.

I couldn't agree more.

I've thought that for six months.

You think it's layered?

Layered got us into this with making such a stunt out of it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think we ought to cool it a bit now.

We've made up a lot.

Cool the hell out of it.

Yeah.

We built a Frankenstein monster, and it can easily devour us.

Well, the idea was that we had to show that they were being very barbaric, and they're going to be able to use it.

and to raise the issue.

We have raised the issue.

They are barbaric.

But now people are saying, oh Christ, we need to get out of Vietnam.

That's the very thing that I'm fighting on this drug thing.

I really read the act of Jackie yesterday.

We must not allow the drug thing to be, well, in order to stop the use of drugs, to stop drug addiction, we've got to get out of Vietnam.

You see, every issue is that way.

But I have noticed, I think, both among the newsmen and among some of the dovish, but not totally irresponsible, senators, there's a certain shift now.

The other evening, I think you ought to be here.

Yes.

We'll have a good reading on that.

We're going through a damn tough week now, starting Wednesday.

a Governor Hatfield debate in the Senate and this other resolution, bipartisan resolution in the House.

It's a bipartisan one.

It's at the end of the year.

And I can't believe we can't win that.

Well, we'll win it.

The question is how much support does it have?

And we'll win it.

It looks like we'll win the Senate.

the governor, I feel, is going to get defeated.

And I think it should get defeated, which was interesting.

He said, on the other hand, we need partnership between the Senate and the president.

I said, listen, don't talk to me about partnership.

If we try to get a partnership, all you guys would add 20 amendments.

and get individual credit for it.

I said, just tell me, what's your ideal partnership?

Are you trying to negotiate for us?

Only one man can negotiate.

He said, all we want, all he wants, and what he would support, is a resolution in which the Senate says it concurs with the objective of military extrication.

the president to explore a deadline for whatever he can get for it without saying deadline for prisoners.

I would be against that, and I'm mentioning it only if they had blood in their eyes.

Last year, I was at a dinner party where a lot of congressmen were there, and I was asked to make a few remarks.

And I said, what the president needs is an act of faith and an act of compassion on the part of all of you.

And Church got up and said, no, what he needs is an act of Congress.

And so I'm mentioning him only to indicate how his state of being Congress.

Don't we really have a situation where

I have a feeling that they, that your reaction, that some of the smartness are petrified into the thought that we might do something in any field.

I mean, the China thing has shaken them.

The Soviet thing has shaken them even more.

And moreover, that you are obviously doing something.

And we're doing it.

And they know the other thing is that on the war, we are going to...

They know one way or another.

That's a no.

And that's why they want to be in with us by doing it.

Otherwise, we did it and they stopped it.

That's the problem.

It isn't just this one bipartisan thing that McGregor was saying.

There's a lot of House guys now, like the guy, the Congressman from Houston, super conservative.

He wants to back some of them.

That's the curse of the Republican Party.

The church doesn't think of itself as a government party.

His point is, what he was asking the sound to be sure of anybody's contacts with any congressional people during this week when all this is being stirred up, is that for God's sake, don't listen to a guy on the basis of some compromise resolution.

They're all bobbling around trying to come up with one that will take the bait off.

My instinct is I haven't taken account, but just the way these guys talk.

You think they're not as confident?

They're not as confident.

They don't see any way of shifting anybody, as I understand it.

The other thing to do, Bob, is repeat it.

I don't give them any goddamn amendments or anything.

But not any awful text.

Probably just some of the people that are with us who would like to do the amendments.

Yeah, but...

It was the same as with Mansfield.

But I can just sense it all over.

It may not have reached public opinion poll level yet.

Everybody has the impression you're doing something in foreign policy.

You don't want to be caught short.

And that they haven't got a foreign policy.

Well, it's reaching public opinion poll level in one way, in the sense that

But considering the job they did on us for three months from February into May, actually having kept it 50 is quite an achievement.

You couldn't open television without seeing horror stories.

And they were playing to a mood that was there.

They were playing to a mood that was there.

It doesn't appear to have any significant, any great significance of any significant number.

Nevertheless, it has just that amount that we needed to have something going for us, something positive.

The idea of something positive on your side is so important in a period when everybody is knocking the hell out of you.

And of course,

any movement at all.

That looks like a serious negotiation.

That would be a tremendous thought for public opinion.

So that's the tough problem they're up against for June 26.

Now they are, I have had an analysis made and I'll send it in to you.

Taking this one, we interview it against what I said to them.

And they are really talking to us in their crooked way with this idea, for example, of separating military and political issues, which no one here in town will understand because they don't know what we said to them.

But that's all through that interview.

I've got the full text now.

Not in an acceptable way, but the mere fact that they're talking about it is interesting.

But it may not.

This is just a bitter pill for them to swallow.

They may not be ready to do it, and they're pushing the infiltration very hard, even in the rainy season.

But that could mean two things.

That could mean that they're in desperate shape.

At the middle of the week, it's always tough to tell.

But I would say it's certainly not a post-30.

and it's more likely to be at the low 20s.

There's no significant difference from last week, but you can never tell whether there's one helicopter down or whether some people die in a hospital.

If it hadn't been for these 33, we would have below 25 every week.

I sure want to, I sure want to get some sort of work done.

I mean, get the skellies, get out the, play the catch, and what we said just happened.

We said that we'd go down after somebody that did.

We said that we'd go down after Laos that did.

Just keep finding another version.

So it's a good point to do, to go.

That went very well.

I think it's playing beautifully.

Because the President did recognize these goddamn things with State.

They never come over here during laws in Cambodia.

But Bill was determined to have one of his people over here.

And we didn't want to be... Bill called up, he said, I'm sending Brown unless the president orders me to stop it and we didn't want to get you involved.

I mean, he fought like a tiger to get the State Department man mentioned in the press release.

And we finally put in a sort of innocuous reference that was undeserved.

The Commerce Department, it really was unfair, but I didn't want to come in here to point this out.

They wanted to put, and we put the list together here, finally.

The state sent over a mishmash of things, which then Peterson and my staff put into some sort of a sequence.

That shipping requirement was basically done by Peterson's staff and my staff.

They had nothing to do with us.

And we sold it.

And they haven't let out a peep.

Out of the distance?

Did he?

He promised he wouldn't, but at any rate, they'll keep it down.

he had to do it, but he said he wouldn't.

They told me they wouldn't do an official thing.

I don't know if it was official or not, but it was a meeting quote.

Sorry.

He's on the wrong side of the issue.

But I think we... Harry Bridges and everybody is ecstatic.

At the table, and we talk to Harry Bridges.

He wants to do it.

Well, sure, all the communists, you guys are delighted.

No, but...

hell of a decent guy.

But the point, the whole China thing, how to package these great things so that we can put them out every three or four months, because we've got another package ready for three months, two, three months from now.

On the bottom thing, you should talk to Chelsea, probably us, because us three can now move back in and help a lot.

and the various unions there on one hand, pointing out he's the best guy we've got.

He's very good at that.

Pointing out, yeah, Austria is a parody of the day.

It's a terrific ball.

And just say, look, this does not involve any change of policy.

It does not.

There's very little likelihood.

It's probably only China.

And the, uh, the, uh, it's not a goddamn American job.

It's a ball.

Now, that's all there is to it, I'll tell you.

Well, no American job is involved because no grain's a big move now.

I thought, didn't you?

Oh, yeah.

And you're getting the proper credit for it.

It's all the headlines say Nixon.

Everybody does.

God, if we look at this one, it's just not true.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, and all the reference to it.

Stuff on the radio is all ridiculous.

I don't want to get you involved in a public relations row, but we had Rogers and stayed on the line for hours on Wednesday afternoon and then yesterday morning.

We finally said, I don't know.

Well, but we figured as long.

No, Ziegler did the briefing.

Brown was just there to answer some questions.

I saw the news clips that I saw of George Ziegler.

I didn't even

Well, we had a public relations session on Wednesday evening.

Scali did a good job.

What did he do off the record then?

gave one of them to you and got that thing held.

I thought of the whole thing in the beginning, you know, the whole China trade thing.

Marshal Green was against it in the beginning.

And how?

Against even the trade, against even the trade.

I remember.

You know, he feared China, and he said, we shouldn't be talking about this.

China's the big fear out there.

And now they come under Andy Green.

Now, of course, actually, the Marshals were pro-Chinese, but, you know, he was playing that other line because that was the thing.

We did the whole top-down thing, and now they come around here

in the press release.

They wanted to put him, they wanted to leave the press release, we're saying, at the request of the Secretary of State.

The President today announced the following.

How the hell do you do that?

Well, we...

The Secretary of State, the Secretary of Congress, the Secretary of Civil War.

That isn't true, Mr. President.

But Christ's sakes, Bob, I don't know.

That doesn't seem to be that, I mean, I'm just sort of repressing that, restressing that.

I don't know how he passed it.

No, because he's obviously in a new, you know, he's got a new cycle of being strong and powerful.

He's moved out strongly in Vietnam, and that blast against the Chinese department, I'm not saying, I didn't see that.

I was not put on the boat.

He asked the undersecretaries, too many of which they all represented, which was chaired by Irvin, to put together a list.

As it turned out, that list was useless, so he doesn't invite staff.

It had nothing to do with the request of the Secretary of State.

I decided to say, give me the things.

I want to release some of these services.

You asked for the list.

And I was the one who decided on the green things.

Of course.

Now, even if they don't want to say it, Bob mentioned the Congress thing last night.

I just think it's good to have a spy over there.

And I, he's totally loyal to us.

Rogers doesn't know what a tough nutty has to crackle, and he does.

But the point is,

Last night he explained it.

The only department that's against it, everybody else, is worth the $10 million.

Now, here's his argument.

His argument is that, for example, Guiana, we have $500 billion worth of contracts with Guiana, Oxide, and so forth.

The Jumanians are looking at expropriations over and so on.

His point is that if we go down the line of slapping bricks at people who kick us in the ass, that we're going to get more and more of them.

He's afraid of the virus.

Bill took it.

Now, that's something he could have completely solved by last night.

And he said, well, it's the law.

It's our law.

We'll always give loans to people or trade with people if they compensate us an expropriation.

But the point about that, maybe it is the law, but expropriation, we find, is not a very pleasant experience for any American business in the countries.

And Mexican-American businessmen are about to go into countries that do.

But the other thing where Bill also, I think, needs planning is his total, it seems to me, almost total lack of comprehension of the seriousness of the Peterson Report.

You know, Bill, in fact, they're talking about,

talking Henry about the whole problem of our competitive position, you know, and so forth.

And Bill says, I said, listen, Bob Anderson used to say that in 1959.

And he says, now you, you, John, he says, now you're saying the same thing.

He says, it's not good.

He says, look, we're just so far ahead.

We're at peak, at peak planning, sort of generally step by step.

But why?

You see, the problem point is,

Bob was just before his time.

He was looking 10 years ahead.

Today, by God, the United States is behind.

What in the hell are we going to do?

Well, we are.

Bill doesn't, Bill dismisses, like you say, all right, take steel, and then in this case, well, that's one industry.

But the fact that we don't want that, then they don't want that.

All right, then take radios.

You can point that.

World War I.

In the 19th century, they were so far ahead that no one could compete with them.

It took them about 30 years to realize that they had become second class.

Well, now take airplanes.

And there's the biggest piece of technology on the airplane thing, incidentally.

I would do one little thing.

I said, I thought that one second I would raise the brain, just for the fun of it.

It would be the possibility that

see if their industry would like to take a crack at our ssd i think what i have in mind is this i don't know enough about german industry but let me say uh the guy that really understands this of course very well because so what we have you know is a

is a plane that is three-fourths complete.

Well, it's completely ready except for the engines.

And as a matter of fact, they contain the present engines except for the environmentalists that use them today.

You say, well, what advantage does it have over the Concorde and what advantage does it have over the Russian?

You know, honestly, the Concorde and the Russian plane are second-generation planes.

This is the third generation.

Here's what I had in mind.

I just think it would be a hell of an idea.

It could all work.

The Germans have got money.

And marvelous technology.

We've got this damn plane.

We can make a deal with the Germans.

I think that could have an enormous impact.

As a matter of fact, the fellow that came up with this is Pete, Pete Flanagan.

Flanagan suggested when I was in here, I said,

By the way, I suggested, right, I said, why don't we build it with the Japanese?

He said, I've been asking the domestic staff to find a way to build a plane.

They can't find a way without the board and the systems.

And he says, well, the Japanese are just too damn hard to deal with.

But he says, why not the Germans?

Now, I don't know.

What is your opinion?

He said, we're, I mean, we know what was going on.

I just may not have any possibility.

So I'd like to see

I would say also with the Soviet orientation that's developing in Germany, it isn't bad at all to have some conspicuous link to us.

The point that I'm making is for the British and the French to find out this is a competitive world.

It doesn't bother me.

But we can't.

We should be for the other.

Event integration is no menace to us.

Economic integration is a potential danger to us.

So I don't know whether Trump has the imagination to see that, to tell you the truth, the SST thing.

But I think it's worse.

And it might have some advantage in the onset field, too.

Well, you have no choice about that, Mr. President.

That's my recommendation, because the $5 million has already been promised.

The question was whether we would let the pyramid divide into 20 state bonds and by using them as security for loans.

the five straight on it.

His military... You called Connolly on that, and he shouldn't have paid.

He said, I'd better get over to Trump and Henry.

I can explain to him, we have no choice about the five million, but that's the absolute minimum.

You've taken the absolute minimum.

Now,

the following.

We've talked to Kearns that he could attach banking conditions to the trillions of track and play into a political issue and saying we are withholding it on political grounds.

I've talked to Kearns.

He can attach banking conditions.

How mischievous is this?

He feels, and he's got a reaction, he'd be right, that the effect on the rest of Latin America, whatever we hear from Satan and the rest, is going to be bad for us to quit screwing around and being so soft with the children.

I have no second.

He believes that as far as American public opinion is concerned, the American people are just hated for us to kick somebody in the ass.

and he wants us to do it.

Now, here I am, approving both the CDC and the state.

God damn it, they're never against anything.

They're never against anything.

You know my view on the Chilean thing.

And pressures.

But on the Chilean thing, I've always been for a harder line.

We have a pretty good pretext now.

Why the hell would we assassinate him?

Well, Aidy couldn't be...

The CIA is too incompetent to do it.

But they did try to assassinate him.

Somebody took three attempts and he left for three weeks.

But why would we assassinate him?

He's our strongest supporter there.

And they have used him to impose martial law and to engage in a violent attack on him.

So I...

and reevaluate them.

The other one that's in there is the military assistance.

Now, the military, of course, here comes up with the idea, well, they're our only friends and so forth.

I haven't seen the military in Chile

the relationship where we do more for the Chilean military than for any other military in Latin America.

We've had more admirals and generals in Chile than in Brazil.

So it all was a...

I don't want to do it.

Well, let's change it.

You know what I mean?

Oh, they know.

Just watch those things.

That's

If you give Colin a call today, I'll be sure he understands what we're doing.

Because I saw he was against everybody else's war and so forth.

What job would Flanagan get instead?

The one we talked about before?

Deputy Undersecretary.

Oh, Sam Yost's job?

Yeah.

Oh, that's good, yeah.

Economic job, yeah.

You see, what you would tie him to is readers.

Tie him into the whole.

I know all of our people, but we need somebody over there that we can run.

We don't have any friends in the State Department.

He'd be excellent.

He's absolutely loyal.

Too bad Bill wouldn't take him when we tried to push him for Ehrman's job.

Ehrman?

God.

He's soft.

He's weak.

He's a decent guy.

He is not that loyal.

I know lots of Ehrman's workers.

And he's on the wrong side of every issue, not very aggressively.

Well, sir, from their point of view, they'll never change my mind.

Or you can do anything.

I don't know.

Shoulders.

He is really pissed off at the World Bank, Paul Beard, Paul Schweitzer, whatever his name is.

I am not impressed.

It's the monetary problem.

As he pointed out, he said, look at what they said about Pakistan.

First year, I believe, it was a decision.

He said they were talking about

the fact that they didn't like the West Bank saying it was political decisions.

The West Bank's bill came in and said this is a safe environment.

Well, he said, well, you make a loan, you've got to look at the politics.

I said, well, yeah, that's true.

You've got to look at the terms of the stability of the country.

But I said, no, but only as economic, only as far as political stability affects its economic stability.

As a matter of fact, he could make a whole new dictatorship.

And he's not going to disagree with this form of government.

See, Conway's point, and he's absolutely right, is that the staff, including McNamara's staff, McNamara's staff and Schweitzer's staff, are both led leading.

Oh, yeah, they are both.

I've met McNamara this morning and I told him

And he did the same thing to his people on the IMF.

But he's absolutely right.

That's become an ideological issue to these guys.

I mean, all these fellows who tell us we shouldn't intervene in domestic affairs anywhere in the world.

If this were a communist government slaughtering people...

That's right.

They don't tell us, do they, that we should ask for reforms before easing trade in China or in Czechoslovakia?

No, you're a great statesman when you do it there, but in Pakistan, you're not permitted to have a national interest.

Well, if you would let us know why you're doing what you're doing in Chile without your state,

On all future actions toward Chile, I prefer a harder line.

And instead of all this military, I'm not for doing more for Chilean military.

I think this guy has got a stranglehold on that country.

The president, that man, is heading for a one-party government as fast as he can.

I think this murder, frozen.

Oh, yes.

But even before that, when we had that meeting on the X impact...

I went around the day to ask everyone, is Allende moving slower than you expected, or faster?

Everyone agrees that he's moving faster.

Everyone agrees that he's heading for a one-party state.

He's getting control of the press.

He's isolating the military.

He's treating the military just like Hitler did.

He's building them up while neutralizing them.

And then he's already taken over the police.

There'll never be another free election in China.

Now, I know the argument, of course, is that if we get out and we lose our stroke there, then the Russians will have to come in and so forth and so on.

The point is that he's just going to leave us in the pipeline.

And also that treating him well is going to encourage others to go to likewise.

That's what I'm concerned about.

That's the point.

I'm concerned about it.

So that's my line.

We need to remember it.

With enthusiasm.

You see, these papers come in, Henry.

I want you to know that by the time they come in here, I've already pulled them back about 100%.

What about this paper?

I don't believe that.

It can't be that important.

No.

And they've had a government which is essentially pro-U.S.

The 200-mile limit they're triggered into by all the other countries.

He'll do what we say.

But he's just gotten it.

They had that jerk outbreak there.

And now Congress refuses to ratify the international coffee agreement because of their 200-mile limit.

And that's what's driving the Brazilian Trump divorce.

and what when they come up mr

One of the places that has to be cleaned out is that Latin American outfit.

You mean Meyer?

Meyer and all the people below him.

Meyer is just a weakling.

But this Latin American outfit is left-wing New Deal.

They were great allies for progress men.

The other day when Somoza was here, Meyer told me full of pride that they told Somoza that if he doesn't watch out, he's going to have the fate of his father.

And he's got to be more liberal.

You know, who the hell are we to start .

Exactly.

All right.

We've got to get that guy.

and say the president wants him to know that they must not that all this is weird that if we if the president feels very strongly and he will have a spanish

All right.

I have to say something about your special interest.

Yes.

And that I was terribly concerned about this.

I don't want to say anything to get them undisturbed.

If the Congress thinks this is a legal law, I consider Brazil our biggest and best friend in America.

Congratulations.

I think it's good.

I think if you get Walters over next to the plant, he goes down.

You know, you realize when you get Walters