Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Pentagon Papers and Vietnam War

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You're going to join me in this meeting right now.

I thought it would be best to have the picture taken just a little too soon.

And then I suggest this one of you, then I'll bring it up.

I don't know...

That's the only thing I'm a little concerned about, about the ambassador.

I think he, when he says, in order to know about the branch that's going to be in for all that time, I think he underestimates the city.

You just can't be that weak.

That's all Jeremy's hope is, and Jeremy ain't got much future.

But nevertheless, that's irrelevant.

And now that you've picked up, I will put these to you, and you pick them up, and give me the line, and he needs to hear.

I wouldn't say we'll play it.

I don't want to say that we're enthusiastic about hospital care.

Absolutely not.

I was going to say that.

Absolutely not.

I didn't plan to say that.

We want to come early.

That's right.

Watson is just now in my office, and he's very bitter.

of a Pompidou appeal to you, which he stupidly sent through state, and they leaked it.

Appeal to me?

On the ex-import financing for Algeria.

Well, God damn it, why did the state leak it?

Oh, because... Is that horrible?

Oh, it's outrageous.

I can't even put a point for... Well, he says there are men in it.

I don't think there are men in it.

Yeah, he won't be able to come.

Truth levels and so forth, you can talk from your own...

The major thing is that they should make a bigger contribution, but...

Anything you want to throw to me, I'll give you.

Where is that?

The offset negotiations are at the point.

They offered us 360 million, something like that.

We asked for 850.

How about the interest-free law?

That's a new idea that they're just exploring.

I'm having lunch with Connolly today, if you suggest that I bring him up today.

Can I tell him about these separate negotiations?

Can I tell him as much as Mitchell knows?

It was the Vietnamese, and that was with the Chinese.

I'm not telling you that.

The Chinese don't know.

That one's just got to be covered.

I wouldn't have it pulled in here on the staff.

I would just keep that area.

Need to know.

Only one person knows that.

The offensive leg, I have to say, he didn't take any documents.

I agree.

Anybody, just think of anybody.

The Vietnamese, particularly.

I would simply say that there are, and I don't want to go into details, but there are, that the President, in a very high level, through a separate channel, that you're working with, we're discussing it, and we'll know.

I'm telling you that.

I wouldn't tell him what you're doing over there and so forth.

But regarding the Russians, I'd say that,

And we are, we're constantly talking to them and more will be coming along on this.

On the one hand, the chances of something preventing the rescue.

He doesn't need to know everything.

He will not want to know everything.

But you can simply say that with regard to the Russians, the Chinese, and the other, there are more that's going on than meets the eye.

The reason the president, you want him to know that he does not confide.

He doesn't confide in Leonard.

He doesn't confide in Roger.

Not because he doesn't have confidence in either of them, but because they're bureaucracies.

I'll tell you that right now.

and tell him that he has told you that he is to be informed as time goes on, he and Mitchell, but only on the basis that they're all positive knowledge.

You don't tell Agnew, Agnew, I don't tell Agnew about that.

I don't tell Agnew.

Agnew knows less than even Spader.

You know, I wonder if at least this market is encouraging us.

And Scott was standing up there, and he stood up.

One representative walked out with me.

I didn't want to ask him for his name.

He said, you know, I used to be a dove, but these guys are making me hogs.

Hogs?

Yeah.

Exactly.

And he said, they're making me hogs.

Uh-huh.

Well, we had to play, you know, after all that we lived through, all the agony again, people wanted to know that.

They wanted to have a Saturday night show before yesterday, and less than 18 minutes.

After I talked to him a little while, Jerry said, well, I think we just ought to fight it out.

Not submit.

And I said, well, I'd prefer that.

I said, I know it's hard, but Henry, would you really come down to it?

I just think we've got to tell these guys, look, you and I, I did it for the benefit of Bill Young.

Bill Young is emotionally old and hung up because of the damage in our lives.

You see how it was?

What a thing for a United States Senate to allow that to be the issue.

That's why I had to get our little boys here and our college students here.

It was tough as hell to put it in broader context and point out that there were more people that had been exposed than left.

And maybe the harm shouldn't be good, but it could be.

You know, it straightens up a lot of people.

But I think by the time we got through this meeting, they heard it's good to give them some kind of just tough, hard talk.

You followed up just right.

I thought you did.

I did this to Henry Hopper last week, and he ran into me yesterday.

He said, you know, you didn't tell me anything, but you have given me more food for thought.

Because I said, go ahead, write what you want.

It actually helped our game plan.

Let's say we blew it.

Well, I think the one test was actually two parts of every day.

One, we've got to put it right on the line.

that if the Senate votes or the Congress votes a deadline, they destroy the negotiations.

And we can prove that.

And we will prove it.

I mean, I guess what I do notice is that the vote has a vote of no confidence.

Second, I think we also have got to stand very firm in another way on this whole business of this damn New York Times thing.

I think if just five people took it on, the main reason is if Johnson is right,

I think we have to do two things, and you did them this morning.

One is we should not leave the impression that we are supporting the substance of these documents, that we do it because we are worried about that.

So we shouldn't give the impression that we are covering up the documents.

On the other hand,

We have to defend the integrity of the process of government if anybody can take cases full of documents out of here.

If the New York Times then decides what's in the national interest, that's impossible.

I don't know.

That's right.

Just very quickly, I'm going to tell you something.

I wanted to clarify my question on the New York Times.

Sure.

We're postured right now that when you came into office, you assessed a new policy being followed.

We made an independent assessment based on all the documents that were available.

And this is basically an inter-family fight.

We were not involved in this.

On the substance.

On the substance, that's right.

Oh, the opinions.

The opinions in this study, basically.

We have nothing to do with that.

I mean, they're not going to express any opinion about whether they, who knew what.

That's true.

You better ask them.

That's a question to be directed to the previous administration, not to this administration.

Thank you, sir.

You're welcome.

Contending to Governor Tush, the new senator this morning indicates that the White House review of this was an outrage.

What they said was that Washington agreed that it was an outrage.

We're talking about a key here, so I'll have the press start to share.

Now, in terms of the injunction

I'm going to simply say that, without discussing the content, the concern of the Justice Department goes to the release of classified and classified documents.

I put it this way.

I have another way to do it.

I would say, gentlemen, it is the responsibility of the Justice Department to enforce the law.

The law specifically provides that any of these classified documents are

that certain procedures are to be followed for the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the if the

They're writing the government to prosecute those who were guilty of a publication.

This was a necessary act, part of the Justice Department, and to carry out the law.

We have a responsibility, this government, this administration has a responsibility to carry out the law and the Justice Department.

We don't, we are not committed yet as to what action the man will be taking, but we have to be in a position to be able to take action if it is found that the law is broken, you see.

And if the nominee is broken, the only people can be apprehended.

I'm sorry, was that?

Yes, sir.

And then the Attorney General, I thought.

New York Times response was that they felt it should be published because it was in the best interest of America.

Why didn't they publish the Pearl Harbor document?

The approach we thought we'd take to this is that the New York Times had this right to communicate.

what they feel is the best interest of American people.

They do not have the right, the legal authority, or the right to declassify documents which they conclude is in the interest of American people.

That is, that is, that is, the law specifically provides that only, as a matter of fact, the president, I think, is the person who declassifies.

The president?

Yes, but the president, you have the theoretical right, but there are very static procedures.

The law provides for static.

The law specifically prohibits declassification by anything other than these procedures.

And therefore, it was the fact that it was an apparent, we're not making the charges, an apparent violation of the declassification procedures.

And it's our responsibility to protect that.

No, I did something.

Oh, yes.

Okay, that's all.

Then I'll say, they'll say, did the president order this?

No, the attorney general said it would be.

Attorney general?

I think the last text that he called the president.

Yes, he did.

I think before he called the time.

The president had informed the president that in order to

the law with regard to unauthorized declassification, you would have to notify the Congress.

The President said, I approve of your taking whatever action is necessary to meet our responsibilities of carrying out the law.

We are going to defend declassification.

We are going to defend the declassification system.

Then, I'll ask you a question.

Of course they do, but that's a separate issue.

It's the right to know that.

That's a matter we're not arguing with you, sir.

And also, we're not getting into this family quarrel.

Put it on this.

We're not getting into this family quarrel as to who did what to whom in the previous administration.

Let's put it that way.

That's what I told the leaders.

The family quarrels.

Who did what to whom.

Who is responsible for what.

That's a matter you can direct all your questions to that.

But we are, we do have a responsibility to that.

That's the classification.

If anybody ever sees anybody, and I want you to understand this, except in the press room, ever, they're off this staff.

Is that clear?

Yes, sir.

That's you and me.

That's Frank.

That's everybody.

I am the simple one.

Never, never.

I'm sorry.

Is that clear?

Yes, sir.

Absolutely.

You cannot allow it.

to check on this Supreme in appointment.

I think it has an advantage, given the screwing we're going to get on China.

Literally, you shouldn't have any substantive conversation.

If you just take the document, say they'll study it.

Oh, yes, that would be fine.

That would be very helpful.

They'd better get pumping if they want a son-in-law.

God damn them.

They'll have it in two weeks.

We'll have the answer.

We don't want it now, Mr. President.

It'd be a hell of a lot better to get it before, in another week or two.

Oh, no, no, no.

I'm not sure if you should think of one, Mr. President.

Oh, yeah.

But you know, I mean, the way I feel, the reason I approved that thing last night, I knew there was potential.

I knew it would blow out the story.

But, God, this is a...

Wasn't that Dominic of Pitbull from the Sankovici?

I don't know what happened.

He says, I've got to tell you that these very nice boys came to see me.

And they said, gee, they don't think the Irish are going to make it.

And they think that we've got a coolish government.

Now, what in the Christ are you talking about?

Of course, of course.

It's great.

It's sweet.

What in the family?

I think that's it.

and let's just stand there and, you know, I was off the top of those times.

Today?

Today.

Oh, perfect.

But I had to be.

I had to be there with these guys.

I could spine them unless you're tough with them.

They won't, they just give in and say, all right, I'm just going to tell you, you're not going to live with them.

And, you know, I left a lot of these.

Remember this day that I told you this.

There are more things going on than meet beyond.

Now, just remember that.

You want to vote against it, the lack of confidence in the president, you have to be responsible for it.

I gave you a lot of credit for all that.

No, that's the way to put it to them, Mr. President.

The reason you have to be so tough also, Mr. President, is because if this thing flies on the New York Times, they're going to do the same to you next year.

They're just going to move file cabinets out during the campaign.

I mean, these guys, uh... Yeah, they'll have a whole story for the Manjush series.

Well, we, we keep our files separately.

They'd have to get them... Larry will have a copy and write us a copy.

They go home and write off their goddamn memorandums.

That's what happens.

Yeah, but we don't, uh, we don't do business quite that way.

We keep most of the files.

I know you do, but, you know, I've had these people in on a lot of us.

We have to discuss... Oh, yeah, they have, very much.

They've made the memorandum.

Yeah.

So it's a lot of stuff.

I mean...

Now, afterwards, they may do it, but not in a campaign.

Let me say this, though, that between the two of us this morning, I thought we had those guys.

I think they did.

It's awful.

It's a real shame.

Oh, God, yeah.

I think so.

Yeah.

And also the confidence, both of us, especially you.

What did you ever follow?

Yeah, but I, you know, I was explaining to them why you had been so confident.

That's really what I was doing.

That's good.

They got to know that we, and I think reminded them of salt.

Yeah.

None of them appreciated this, and I said a week before, everybody was saying it was bad, and it was something bad.

Of course, Mr. President.

Well, China, I think we've got the only question is how we're going to target it.

It's a question of how we want it.

Yeah.

I mean, they... Yeah, but you see, China is something else.

I mean, they'll say, well, so we want to make a trip to China.

It depends what we get out of it.

with regard to Seoul and Russia.

So, something like that.

Well, one is going to say, so you're going to take a trip to China, because if you had announced too much ago, then some held snide and didn't believe that we could do it before the Second World War.

Nixon, Kissinger & Ziegler on Pentagon Papers and Vietnam War

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 15, 1971

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