Nixon, Ehrlichman & Haldeman on Pentagon Papers and Freedom of the press

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I'm here.

Oh.

I'm here.

Hold on.

I'm here at the same time.

Okay.

She's been here, man.

She's in the kitchen.

I haven't had it.

I haven't had it today, but the kitchen meant there were going to be three for dinner, so I brought the two.

That's definitely a check on what's going on sometimes.

uh lucy had to go back look she was going to ask helene something and she was going to try to find out but she was down there and sort of gave him the impression she'd be around tomorrow and pat didn't seem to know when she was leaving for someone i didn't break in an effort to be helpful you know she said she

Pat doesn't have any idea that we're going forward unless she hears us.

Well, I found that it's on her schedule, so... Just warn her.

I'll tell you, would you mind, I think you could call Pat on that, but you simply call her and tell her that we have got to meet on this meeting here.

What I just want to tell her is that I guess we just better tell her that she does not have to pat for that, that we're going to go to Florida.

Right?

Well, I think she knows.

All right, fine.

All right.

Tell her we're going to go to Florida.

And that I, uh, that, that, and then she, and she will raise the point that the other one is coming, and she isn't.

And I just say that, I just say that I just got to have some friends.

Okay?

Or, or I won't.

I, I, maybe you can find out.

Well, I think she knows that we'll find out later when, when it makes the difference.

Oh, sir.

The question really that we have to answer, John, is that I understand, especially with the NSC meeting, that they're going to present evidence for tomorrow on this thing.

And the question is that Roger addressed it as to whether any statement could be made about this subject that might in any way be interpreted as any interference with the court process, whatever the case might be.

I hit hard on the fact that we had to, not just win the court case, but win the public relations side, and Conley backed it up strongly, and everybody recognized it.

I must say, Rogers made an eloquent statement.

We still got to talk to him publicly.

He was very good about the morality of the whole thing.

I was wondering if you have any first, any progress on Johnson having a press conference, whether you're willing and heard.

I know, but you know, Bryce is very deliberate.

He's got to do it.

Time is of the essence.

He should have that conference, and he should hit it right on the nose.

I don't think he can do it.

Earlier this week, he said he wouldn't make any statement.

When I called down there... Did you ask him to?

Well, I didn't ask.

I said we want him to do what he can to mobilize his people.

He said he was in a very bad position to do it.

Wasn't that just too bad?

So he left us in here?

The whole thing?

He still hasn't said anything?

I don't think we're in as bad shape as some of our people seem to think.

I don't think our people think we're in bad shape.

Well, somebody in there did.

Holly did.

Agnew did.

And Lincoln did.

It all felt that the whole oppression was that...

not me personally, but you know, that most people don't think of, whether as John, as Connolly said, they don't think of, they just think of the president, period.

And Johnson's got him incurred now.

They don't think of whether Johnson or that, it's just the president.

And he says it's an attack on the integrity of the presidency.

I think he's absolutely right on that.

I don't think they're saying, well, here's poor Nixon in here.

Johnson got us into this damn war and Nixon's getting us out.

I've asked people to make that point, but they don't seem to be able to get the right words.

And maybe nobody will print them.

I made one very important point.

I said there's only one way to get to the New York Times.

Mark the damn document.

Not top secret.

They'll print it then.

But what isn't quite right, the main thing is, John, whether I should, I mean, so that I don't, whether we can bottle my brain with it or not, or whether I just go up there and talk about welfare reform and all we saw in our comics.

I think this is a real chance to say something.

There's a vacuum here as far as any clear statement of the administration's position.

Goddamn it.

Rockers won't make one.

That's what it comes down to.

He would go so far as to write a letter to a senator if we could find a senator that would put it out.

The trouble with that is if you go in writing on something, it's got to be a compendium.

You can't leave anything out.

And it doesn't, it isn't effective.

It's not an effective piece.

We've done some exercises all afternoon on that.

It just doesn't come off.

It seems to me... What can be said legally to get away with it?

Well, I don't think you comment at all

on the court case.

In other words, you don't comment on the issues that are before the court.

And that still leads to plenty of things that you can talk about.

And Henry's office put together, I think, a very good statement

except for the last paragraph.

That can be cut down.

That has a little patch.

Yeah, what is it?

I'm going to go here.

Leave it with me.

I'm going to start working.

Do you want me to make that statement?

I want you to make some statement.

This manuscript was not written with the problem of the court case in mind.

So I want to leave it at that.

I'd like to work on this and sample it and make sure it's not a comment on the case.

I'd like to take a back shot at it.

Let me, I can leave with you an outline if you'd like to look at it.

It just summarizes the point.

All I want to do is to start.

When I get it, I've just got to get something.

I don't have an hour to spend.

I'm sad that it's only starting.

So what I'll do, John, as soon as you've got what you want me to have, I'll get it done for you.

That's right.

You understand?

This is going to be on TV, so you've got been out on that.

But you'll still get a lot of violence in it, I think, because you're talking to the Northeastern press.

Yeah.

And .

It won't be in the pool.

It won't be in the pool, but they'll be in the media.

Right.

I understand.

One day we did.

John, for your information, I read the act to them about security.

I think we can follow that up with you directing on that.

Those, I mean, my remarks, of course, you do so many things.

We ought to say, I don't want to be classified.

I want to be classified.

Second, I want the absolute minimum of debriefing of any meetings in which I participate.

I have an absolutely ruthless prosecution enforcing all the security laws.

I will hold responsible the section chief or assistant secretary whenever we compartmentalize them and he will be discharged.

I will ask for his resignation.

I'm not going to hold him.

And, uh, there's not nobody peaked about it.

Oh, no.

Ain't about to peak now.

This is the time to do it.

Because the cops are saying he had his people on him.

Which head of them?

No.

Two dudes.

Two days ago.

He called in his undersecretary.

All of this episode gave rise to it.

What'd he tell them?

He told them, uh, in effect, that, uh, uh, the Treasury Department was in the habit of building their own personal reputations through intercourse with the press.

And he said that he'd seen to it that they got a good report when they left.

They didn't have to worry about getting a nice job.

But if anybody leaked anything to the press that was of a confidential nature, they would be fired.

And then he turned to Charles Walker.

And he said, now turn.

He said, I'm talking to you.

And he said, we've had a lot of trouble in the past with stories that are attributed to you.

And he said, we're just not going to have that trouble.

I have found that when you really lay down the law of nature,

You couldn't have made it plainer, Mr. President.

This was very strong and effective.

Well, let's get a memorandum.

I want that right.

People are going to be fired.

And I don't care if that leaves.

I'll tell you, John, rather than Henry doing it, you run it.

Maybe that's kind of... You can write it, John, from a legal standpoint.

I want to set up the basis that we're going to go after these people.

You know what they found, what Mitchell has found, among other things?

The New York Times guy used a press pass as the device for getting this stuff printed.

Because the little printer didn't want to reprint some of this, make copies of some of this stuff.

It's absolutely unconscionable that these people would work for three months on files of secret documents

make their own elections, and arrogate their right that they can determine what's in the national interest.

It's unbelievable.

They're gloating in their paper about what a remarkable achievement it is that they were kind of able to keep it a secret for three months that they were here.

Yeah, and what a great thing is that they have stolen goods.

Yeah.

Now, Bob, did you follow up on those things I mentioned?

Yes, of course.

Did they get some of that stuff down there in the Congress?

Somebody just used it again.

I know it's an interesting case.

Yes.

The Star Tonight, who knows?

Star Tonight has the Ellsberg story.

Front page, big black title.

Of course, that son of a bitch, I know him well.

You know him?

Oh, well.

First of all, he's nuts.

Well, Mr. President, he's a funny guy.

He's a genius.

He's the brightest student I've ever had.

He was a hardliner.

He volunteered for service in Vietnam.

He was so nuts that he'd drive around all over Vietnam with a carbine when it was guerrilla infested

And he sued, he has my like cases on his, he sued a person in the field on the theory, everyone in black.

Then, it's always been a little unbalanced.

Then they brought him into, well first they brought him in 65, I think it was.

into ISA in defense.

Then he volunteered for Vietnam, but he couldn't get along with McNulty.

Then he came back from Vietnam, went back into ISA.

The man is a genius.

He's one of the most brilliant men I've ever met.

He was a civilian all this time?

Civilian all this time.

He may have been a Marine once, but at any rate, he then flipped.

Late 67, he suddenly turned into a peacemaker.

At first, a moderate one.

That is, he was for extrication the way all of them were at ISA.

Even as late as the transition period, I talked to him during the transition period because he is so bright.

But then from early 69 on, he just went off his ruck.

He's taking drugs.

Is he taking drugs?

Oh, yeah.

Absolutely no question about it.

Get that out.

No question about it.

And just totally wild.

And he's moved into a more and more intransigent, radical position.

I haven't myself seen him now for a year and a half, except once at a meeting at MIT where I talked to a group of students.

And I got the students, but he then started up.

and heckled me and accused me of being a murderer and being associated with a murderer.

And then he wrote an article called Murder and Laws.

I don't know whether you ever saw that, in which he in effect accused me in writing of the same thing.

Well, now, how did he resolve that?

Did he pay back double trunks to get these out of my pocket?

Well, what I suspect he did, Mr. President, is Rand had two documents.

Now, why in the name of Christ Rand was given two sets of documents, I don't know.

I think he stole one set of Durand documents, filmed them, Xeroxed them, and put them back in.

This would be my...

This would be my... That's how he got those 47 volumes.

I beg your pardon?

Running all those pictures through Xerox is a long thing to take from...

But you could have taken one volume a day.

What do you suppose the times paid for this?

No, he wouldn't do that.

He doesn't need the money.

He's now married a very rich girl.

He doesn't need money.

Well, the other reason they did it, John, this is a labor of love at times.

There's nobody in the Times.

It's for some Vietnam.

Well, I said it's, I'm not sure.

All right, now coming back to this proposition.

You will prepare for me, John.

You can.

I don't have to have anything.

I'll think of the catch words.

I don't worry about that.

All I want is something that is, something that is good, that you really think needs to be said.

But God, man, Bob, you follow up on the hard line stuff.

And I've got to get some people that are out saying the, you know, the traffic isn't so good.

Some of you can't type stuff.

That's got to start getting out.

It's got to start handling these bastards.

I must say today at lunch, as I said, because it's not a good control group, but it's a group of liberal businessmen, North Atlantic Treaty.

Some wise guy asked me, somebody asked me about freedom of the press in a hostile way.

And I let him have it the way I did upstairs.

And they all got up and started applauding him.

Well, that's why I think we ought to get this, and I think we ought to – I think the argument is very clear.

There's a case I know that all of you are aware of.

I'm not going to comment on that case.

I'm going to talk about the responsibilities of the president.

I said that I, of course, could be, certainly from a political standpoint, well-intended to –

Why should we do anything about this?

Because it involves the previous administration.

It does not involve this administration.

It's not in whatever we do with any of our decisions and so forth and so on.

But any president, whatever the president is, must defend the right to get the right advice, the right to make his contacts with foreign governments and so forth and so on and so on.

That's next.

And also, I take the point that here in the newspaper,

Which law isn't announced?

That then gets into the law.

Can they align the safe line up there?

There's no skin off our nose.

Yes, sir.

There's no skin off our nose, but the reason that I'm doing this is I'm defending, I mean, many would suggest, why don't we allow this to come out?

We would embarrass Johnson, we would embarrass Kennedy.

I'm not here to judge that.

It's for that, it's for Johnson to answer on that.

and those that serve in that administration as far as this administration is concerned.

Nothing is involved here as far as we're concerned.

But I will speak to the point as to what the policy of this administration will be, is now, and will continue to be in the future with regard to this matter of security.

That policy is we will not allow it, and we will provide it, and we will prosecute it because we're defending the presidency here.

Well, you're, for one thing, you're carrying out an congressional mandate, which is your job to do.

I play some of this on the Congress.

The classification thing is law.

The law requires the law of the land.

The law specifically provides that code, and that we have to do that.

But second, why?

What is the reason for the law?

The reason for the law is that one, two, three, four, and you're done.

In this paper, if you look that up very well, I would just take that right out.

There are regular procedures for declassification, Mr. President.

Okay, I can just do it.

I mean, right now, it's not my job.

Don't do that.

Don't.

You've got so many things to do, John.

No, I'm sorry.

This is right now.

But I have this feeling that I am taking a very important turn.

I think it's very important.

I am in charge of the case before the Supreme Court.

If it gets there.

The court's going to turn it down and turn it in.

I ought to argue a case for the Supreme Court.

That was my line.

I might tend to do that, all right.

I can do it.

Yeah, I know.

I mean, they just put my name on it.

That indicates the importance.

You know, they haven't done anybody else.

Griswold won't know how to do it.

I could go down there and really lay them out in black, and the rest would take out after me like gangbusters, and I'd just knock their goddamn brains out.

Get that case out of the forum.

Supreme Court never had an audience like that, huh?

I wouldn't say it in advance.

I just put my name on the brief.

You know, you've got to do that.

You just indicate the importance, and that day, just go down there and knock the case.

I don't think it can be made by anybody else in country, frankly.

And I think here you'll... Well, the one that made it nearest is right.

He's reading it up, and like he talked in there, he was good.

He did it hard, and the immorality of this thing, and the fact that he convicted Johnson, and he printed, and they let him go with it.

so we always provided a chance for cross-examination and all that sort of thing.

And, Mr. President, when, in the McCarthy period, when they made some of the State Department people account for their previous actions, the Times and others were eloquent on the theory that people ought to be able to give free advice without being prosecuted afterwards.

Here you have a case where documents are taken totally out of context and put before the public by a succession of people with vested interests.

I still think it would wait too long for Newsweek to get out.

I think that Stuart Ossoff, get that editorial, that editorial.

I mean, nobody's going to read Newsweek, but the editorial at the time wrote this in a public domain.

They wrote an editorial in which they took exactly the opposite position.

to advise Kennedy privately.

All right, because Alsop reported what Stevenson had said on the day of peace.

All right.

The president and his advisor must be able to communicate.

I think you make such an enemy out of Alsop who's been battling all over town that that's his great thing for next week.

We can get them out.

Let him run it.

Then we should put it.

This is going to be around a while.

We have plenty of time.

We've got to run and battle with the times.

We've got to rerun.

And I mean, I mean, I always run and climb when I mention this.

They don't think I mean it.

They're thinking what the crowd does.

They are never to be in the White House again, in the pool.

They're never to be on the plane in the pool.

They're never to be in my presence again in the pool.

And I will never answer your question at the time of the press conference.

Never.

That's it.

They've been intended.

They're finished.

You cannot allow this sort of thing to go on.

They're going to fight the presidency.

They're going to fight the president.

It's different.

I mean, I don't mind who made it against me.

I don't mind that the New York Post fights me.

Mr. President, if McCarthy had been leaked 47 volumes of documents that had already been selectively put together and then he made a further selection, every liberal newspaper in the country would have been screaming with outrage at the injustice of it.

higher morality that they are the ones that will judge as to whether it's moral or immoral.

They will judge whether or not a document is in the public interest to leave a document out.

It's wrong for a party to leave a public document.

It's wrong to leave one that embarrasses Andrew Stevenson.

But it's right to leave one that embarrasses Lyndon Johnson and proves the translation of the words right.

That cannot be accepted.

That is a terrible thing for you.

All the news that's fit to print and what they're sending today is stolen goods are fit to print.

They must have had, when they started on this, they couldn't have known what was in these documents.

So even if they say now that there's nothing inimical to national security in there, they put people to work for three months on top secret, highly sensitive stuff, and then they should never have touched it.

They should never have accepted it.

with a lot of the other principles of drama and say, we have this, this is true.

They didn't do that.

They said we're going to print it.

It's unconscionable.

It's also unconscionable in my opinion that Johnson, McNamara, and all the rest are quiet.

They ought to speak up.

McNamara's got no shoes.

He's with the men.

He's got no shoes.

This is something that has nothing to do with it.

McNamara says that if he's called before a congressional committee, he wants to take the position that he cannot talk because he's afraid he'll be called before a congressional committee and that he will then contribute to the destruction of chance.

And he said, I never betrayed the president when I was in office.

Because Bundy is already beating the drums for the proposition that he, Bundy, wants to come clean now and say everything.

Bundy is taking the time side of it.

He's turning on Johnson.

That's right.

Oh, my God.

What about Kennedy, Senator?

What about Kennedy?

How about the murder of B.M.?

How about the fact that Lodge and Kennedy conspired the murder of B.M.?

How about putting that little marshal up?

I didn't speak with him.

Not yet, but he's going to dash all over this place.

None of these guys... All right, I'll tell you what we want you to do.

We're too late.

I've got that injury.

I want to get out the stuff and murder it.

Get one of the little boys over in your office and get it out.

I'm going to see it.

I'm going to get it out.

My guy shouldn't put out crap like that.

Get it out.

I'm going to put it out.

I want to see the material.

I've got the time to...

The President is in these volumes and they are going to come out one way or the other in the next few weeks.

They are coming inside.

They won't use the damn part.

and what it says about the interviews.

I know more about it than some of

We had nothing here, Mr. President.

But Bob and I have

couldn't we go over now brooklyn's has no right to do that you know what i mean i want it implemented on a thievery basis god damn it get in and get those files oh the state can get it they may be able to clean it by now but this thing getting dead now i wouldn't be surprised that brooklyn's had to file my point is johnson knows that those files are around he doesn't know for sure that we don't have

But what good will it do you to bomb the whole file?

The bombing of the Black Man.

I, to the best of my knowledge, there was never any conversation which they said will hold it until the end of October.

I wasn't in on the discussions here.

I just saw the instructions to have...

Anyway, why don't Johnson have a press conference interview?

Because he's smart enough not to.

From Johnson's viewpoint, if he has a press conference, he will see exactly what we see, which is that the thing that that will accomplish is clearly put this as a battle of

When is Bryce going to talk to him?

Next week at the Mayhem.

Let's find out.

Incidentally, Bryce wanted me to ask you whether you care whether he doesn't go on the whole trip.

Of course.

whatever he wants.

I think he ought to go as far as he can, but I think he ought to be there mainly.

I want him to go just to get ahead of his confidence and go ahead and keep him out of trouble.

That's all.

Yeah.

But he feels he can't really go on the trip beyond Korea without raising serious doubts, I think.

You know, who is he to go on the trip?

Again, who wants him to go?

But that's all right.

On that subject, I...

What Rockefeller said to me when I talked to him yesterday, said when he fights the Times, he goes after the advertisers.

And he gets on the teller and a few others to pull their appetizing off.

Yeah, he does.

Kenworthy, who was in on this thing, just plays Markham like a, Markham like a, like an artist.

I will talk to the rest of the son, Mitch Walton.

You can't trust him.

He blabs.

Well, he blabs all the time.

But Led may play on this one.

We ought to freeze him.

No, no, no.

Son of a bitch is after these that he was going to do that.

Rockers won't play.

Rockers might.

Rockers on this one might play.

and so forth over there.

He cut them off for a while.

No, Rodgers will not, he won't go yet.

He'll either say, no, I don't think it's a good idea.

That's what he'll say.

He'll say, gee, that's your, you know.

There are some good, and Max Frank was a right as good columnist.

And it'll look petty.

But forget it.

I think with Mitchell, though, let's just close with our own piece.

I don't want you to talk to any Times man about politics.

In other words, there should be absolutely no calls returned by the National Committee to get a hold of Nostrader.

And that is absolutely unfortunate.

I don't want anybody in the whole National Committee to start doing that.

They sure did.

And this time, the phone was not going to be hit.

You're the most valuable.

You're the most valuable and your staff is the most valuable because you have access to things they want to know.

The problem is going to just be to get everybody to hang tight.

There's going to be a story about we've frozen the times and all that.

I'm going to want to explain that.

We just got to not ever be available.

No, no, I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm just too busy.

I'd love to, but I'm busy.

It's easy.

You watch.

What a pleasure.

That's Ancimonia's fast address, and I think what he would do to a, to Goldwater, Goldwater were to do this to, uh, to a, to a liberal.

I want you to find out who gives the time to my serious competitor.

That's our problem.

We haven't got anybody that doesn't take their line, who's not defending.

Daily News.

Did they take them on?

Well, the Daily News was... Jerry Green was going to, I don't think.

They did, I'm sorry.

Goddamn, newspapers are a bunch of slobs.

The Chicago Tribune didn't.

Wouldn't.

Well, they wouldn't buy it.

I don't know.

I'm afraid I read it, too.

Get close to it.

Hershey did.

All right.

Play Hershey there.

That's a good song.

LA Times was considering it.

They just might.

Well, they'll be a little better in history if they do take them on.

The press has got an innocent song.

So they're going to, they've drawn the story out.

They made one mistake, Roger Proctor used to always say, never strike a king unless you kill him.

They struck him and did not kill him.

And now we're going to kill them.

That is what I will do.

It's the last thing I do in this office.

I don't care what it costs.

They're going to be killed if I don't kill them.

You know?

We're here long enough to kill them.

Because they will never be in this office again.

Never.

That's it.

This is one other day.

One other day.

We'll be taking some trips.

On a car.

Is that clear?

They are not to go.

They do go somewhere good.

On a car.

On their own.

The way the game is going to be played.

We can't take everybody.

I just didn't have to get any.

The only way you ever fight an engineer is not through condemning them, not through letters from the editor, not through arguing with the public, but cutting their choices.

That's the only thing I've ever heard of.

This liberal establishment is so contemptible now, I haven't had a chance to tell you yet, we finally got to Clifford.

He had no information.

He had no information at all.

He didn't even have unreliable information.

All he had was hearsay evidence from congressmen who had talked to...

He had the sort of information that was six weeks old.

You know, he didn't even...

I thought at least some second-level North Vietnamese had talked to an emissary or something.

But I knew the North Vietnamese wouldn't be... Where did you convert to the enemy to get value in one of these statements?

Do you imagine?

I wish I were in Congress.

I wish I were in the Senate.

And I can make this speech.

I mean, one of these guys has got guts to get down there and make himself famous.

He could be up there screaming, yelling, attacking.

He's privileged to be up there.

He can say anything he wants.

He doesn't have to worry about a court case.

A guy can get up on that floor of that Senate and knock a little bit Jesus up.

I think the guy who's killed himself is Humphrey.

Hmm.

Oh, because he looks contemptible in this.

Oh, he said he didn't know it and it would have affected his actions had he known.

I mean, here is a man who...

He was vice president.

He could have...

He's better than anyone.

It would have affected his actions.

That'll get away with it.

Teddy Kennedy, will he say the same thing?

McNamara told me that Teddy called him and said he'd support McNamara, whatever that means.

Um, Teddy, that's...Betty, you'd better watch out.

He's afraid to get in the Kennedy stuff now.

Yeah.

I don't think the Kennedy stuff will be bad.

That's why I wanted...nobody's...

I asked for it three days ago and they haven't gotten it yet.

I want to know whether there's anything yet that's detrimental to Kennedy.

Is it totally true?

It's most detrimental to LARGE.

You see, the trouble with this file is I have seen the whole file on DM, and I don't know where it is.

It has LARGE in it.

If we can get it from LARGE, the interesting part of that DM file is the instructions Kennedy sent through back channels to LARGE.

That they don't have.

All they have is LARGE's actions.

And...

He did just what Kennedy ordered.

And Kennedy ordered the murder to be ended.

That's right, Mr. President.

But if you publish, if we just publish this, you'd have to draw the conclusion.

Oh, there's no question.

I mean, the evidence exists.

I've seen it.

We don't have it here.

You have to get it from large.

Right.

Yes.

I either get that or he doesn't take that trigger and he gets this little roll again.

That ought to be in for his own protection anyway.

That's right.

I'm not really behind this.

Tell him it's to protect him.

Oh, tell him we understand that time says this, and it's going to be used if the president wants it immediately.

Why, you've got to steer it over the bridges or something.

I want to see the back-channel messages that can be sent in.

Those are the things to get, because the file that's in these documents reflects Lodge's actions.

And of course, anyone knowing Lodge knows that Dick Howard would never have done it.

He would never have done anything like this.

Lodge says he got the guy knocked over.

Oh, certainly not.

The other file doesn't fully show that Kennedy ordered the murder, but it shows he ordered the coup.

It showed that he ordered the coup, and he set in motion the train of events which any reasonable man knew would lead to murder.

That's what happened.

That it shows without any clue.

That's what happened.

That it shows without any clue.

You're always held guilty if you're a reasonable man for the consequences of your deliberate action.

Not that it shows without any doubt, whatever.

I don't want to hear them.

Well, they can't do any worse.

This is the worst thing I've ever seen happen.

Nothing else worse could happen because of the double standard of the thing.

But next year we're going to see this sort of stuff for our administration.

Except our files aren't that easy to demonstrate.

Henry, you've got to take your staff, find a tooth comb, give them blood tests.

lie detector tests, everything to be sure that none of those guys lie.

You know what I mean?

Because they can't afford your analysis, so you can't get them.

Right, sure.

Well, the way we keep our files anyway, Mr. President, is all the HUD stuff is kept over here.

They don't go in the files over there.

I mean, you take Sonnenfeld, for example, who handles the Soviet affairs for me.

He doesn't see any of my conversations with Sabrina.

The only part of it he saw was so...

But he doesn't have the memos.

He doesn't know when I see him.

So he just handles the routine European stuff.

And even Lake didn't really get out, as far as I can tell, with any documents.

I haven't heard a squeak from Muskie.

I don't think there's been any kind of Humphrey thing.

That is terrible.

He was on television the same day.

And then again last night.

If he had known this, he would have taken a different position on the war.

Known what, Mr. President?

Did anybody tell Johnston that Humphrey said this?

He doesn't know.

Very well, Jonathan now is in a position he can't support today.

And he does make it impossible for him to support Humphrey.

So he's a big old head.

I'm going to have a tough time anyway.

I'm afraid I'm going to call him a paranoid president.

I know.

You know, Humphrey's version of this was that McNamara and the president of those fellows all had that war, and he was over there, and they never talked to him.

Even when Johnson had his operation, they didn't ever tell him.

Sir, he went into that much detail.

He said at the time of the Johnson operation, they called him and said, we'll be available on a moment's notice if anything happens.

And he didn't even know then what was going on, and he used to always say, oh, my Christ.

He works on the base of one thing.

We don't act.

Everything he needs to know, no.

He gets a weekly briefing.

But he knows everything he needs to know.

He doesn't know any more.

He doesn't even know.

He doesn't know.

That is not her.

I know it.

He doesn't know the tactical details, but that isn't so important.

He doesn't know what I'm talking about.

Well, okay, then.

He had an interesting slip of the tongue.

He was trying to tell about the need to know doctors, and he called it the right to know doctors.

And so he worked himself into the position where then his conclusion was he guessed he didn't have the right to know in the Johnson administration.

And that's a very running commercial.

The whole thing, I mean, how would it, if it was necessary to go into Vietnam,

The fact that Johnson had concluded it six months early and had lied doesn't affect, shouldn't affect Humphrey's judgment about it.

I was glad to remind these NSC boys, because I know Roger and Blair both disagree with us, that I am not, was never one of those who questioned going into World War II.

question going into Korea, or question going into Vietnam.

I only question and still very deeply question how we did it.

That's a very important thing to bear in mind.

Because believe me, if it was wrong to go in, it's wrong to stay in.

I've never been the idea that, well, now that we're in,

No, you saw that before I did.

I always urged you in the first year to say, it doesn't matter how we got in.

How we got in?

Well, it's the Rockets' line.

Well, now, it doesn't matter how we got in.

We're in the war.

How do we get out?

The moment you said, I can't justify killing one American man, or to justify a mistake that we made, God damn it, we either went in, we get in right back, and there's a purpose to be served by remaining in, or we get the hell out right away.

See, that's the whole point.

Withdrawal is not a policy, Henry.

Withdrawal is only a method of achieving a goal.

In other words, we are withdrawing from Vietnam in a way to achieve our goal, the goal of going in, which was an independent South Vietnam.

That's always true.

If you don't, the moment that you give away that high ground, you're finished.

Absolutely finished.

Well,

Do you want to ask Andy Keene to go to Rochester tomorrow?

No.

He's going to be in his hometown.

I don't think he should.

I think he's going to be turned on.

I just don't want to.

And anyway, I'm not going to talk to those congressmen.

No?

You're not supposed to.

He didn't do it.

I see no reason to.

I mean, he doesn't do much of a job.

All he's done is become like...

What do the Indians have that takes even a kiddie to crush a 70-year-old?

They are superstitious.

They are superstitious flatterers, Mr. President.

They are masters at flattery.

They're masters at subtle flattery.

That's how they survived 600 years.

They suck up.

Their great skill is to suck up to people in key positions.

Undoubtedly, the most unattractive women in the world are the Indians.

Undoubtedly.

I've never seen one.

Oh, I've seen a couple.

Muslims.

Sexless.

Nuts.

People.

I mean, people say, what about the black Africans?

Well, you can see something of vitality there.

I mean, they have a little animal-like charm.

The government's image is apathetic.

Right.

Life magazine is also serving vaccines.

I know.

That's true.

Oh, they are going to fight over there.

They are going to fight over there.

Are they?

Yeah.

Didn't we talk about this?

Well, I called the president.

It reminds you that you mentioned to him that you were going to fight the expats.

But only two of them.

Oh, that's right.

You know, one thing, Henry, is this.

Have them take part in the attack.

Our enemies have to be smoked out for what they are.

And I don't think anything smokes them out more than this time.

It's a terrible thing to go through.

It's terrible to think of this.

I hate to think of fighting a great newspaper like this.

Bob may have told you, I've stood up in your meetings.

I feel you ought to fight them.

I think at first you'll take some ease, but your deposition is so right that you're not going to attract anyone by doing this.

I suggest this.

We have a few ambassadors.

Rush is one that I want to cut off.

You want to cut off the time?

Well, can I tell Rush?

I'll tell you about it.

Come on.

Now, what's the plan schedule for Rochester coming up?

It's much like the one you got last week.

Oh, I, uh, oh, it is.

Well, send it over to you.

We got one over there.

All right, sir.

In your briefcase, uh, there, there are some action callers and things you had last week.

I didn't know if you wanted me to call through those before I... Well, there's some things that I just don't want to act on.

I'm thinking about the ones that I haven't...

Back to the parts that wasn't one of them about the, I don't know which, you know, what the problems were.

I don't know what the problem is.

It did take a while.

Okay.

I'll look at that now.

Ah, there goes the... She's here.

She's on the phone with us.

Okay.

Okay, thank you.

Nixon, Ehrlichman & Haldeman on Pentagon Papers and Freedom of the press

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Nixon Library Finding Aid

Also recorded on June 17, 1971

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