Conversation 528-016

TapeTape 528StartThursday, June 24, 1971 at 11:23 AMEndThursday, June 24, 1971 at 11:35 AMTape start time03:34:12Tape end time03:45:17ParticipantsNixon, Richard M. (President);  Mackey, John;  Mackey, John (Mrs.);  Garvey, Ed;  Curry, Bill;  Buonconti, Nick;  Cashen, Henry C., IIRecording deviceOval Office

On June 24, 1971, President Richard M. Nixon, John Mackey, Mrs. John Mackey, Ed Garvey, Bill Curry, Nick Buonconti, and Henry C. Cashen, II met in the Oval Office of the White House from 11:23 am to 11:35 am. The Oval Office taping system captured this recording, which is known as Conversation 528-016 of the White House Tapes.

Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
     Pentagon Papers
          -Birch E. Bayh, Jr.
          -Michael J. (“Mike”) Mansfield
               -Efforts to aid the President
          -Congressional activity
          -Republican activities
               -House Republican action
          -Henry A. Kissinger's need for documents
          -Release of documents
               -Involvement of administration
                     -Cambodia
                     -Laos
               -Tactical use
               -Subpoena power
                     -Problems
          -Congressional hearings
               -Scope
               -Potential problems
               -Potential advantages
                     -Robert S. McNamara
                           -Questioning by George S. McGovern supporters
                     -Edward M. (“Ted”) Kennedy's role
                     -John F. Kennedy involvement
                           -Ngo Dinh Diem
                           -Commitment of troops in 1961
               -Ronald L. Ziegler
                     -Qualities
                     -Ziegler
                     -Herbert G. Klein

     Schedule
          -Indianapolis
                -Possible visit to farm
                -Timing

                -Television coverage
     -Chicago
          -Speech to American Association of Retire Persons [AARP]
     -Return to Washington, D.C.
     -Camp David
          -George P. Shultz's request for meeting
                -Attendance
                      -John N. Mitchell                  Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                      -John B. Connally
                      -John D. Ehrlichman
                      -Advantages and disadvantages
                      -Connally's schedule
                      -Martha (Beall) Mitchell
                      -Paul W. McCracken
                -Ehrlichman’s suggestion
                      -Haldeman's schedule

Pentagon Papers
     -Impact on country
     -Cliff Miller
           -Poll results
                 -Regional impact
                 -Impact by educational background
                 -Age group division
           -Awareness of news
                 -Age differences
           -Revelations of Vietnam involvement
                 -Media handling
                 -Media attacks on Lyndon B. Johnson
                 -Media relations with the President
           -President's declassification order
                 -Lawsuit against Franklin D. Roosevelt Library
                 -30 year secrecy ceiling
                 -Kissinger
                 -Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
                 -1972 Democratic victory
                       -Results
                             -Bay of Pigs
                             -Dominican Republic
                 -Selectivity
           -News coverage
                 -Mansfield's Amendment

                 -Kissinger's activities
                      -North Vietnamese negotiating strategy
                            -People’s Republic of China [PRC] pressure
                            -US domestic pressure
                      -Relations with Soviet Union
                       -US domestic politics
                            -Impact on foreign relations
                                                               Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
     Public relations
          -Reaction to wedding of Tricia Nixon and Edward R.F. Cox

Alexander P. Butterfield entered at 11:05 am.

     Ehrlichman’s location

Butterfield left at 11:06 am.

     Public relations
          -Reaction to wedding of Tricia Nixon and Edward R.F. Cox
                 -Memorability
                       -Compared to Jacqueline Lee Bouvier Kennedy White House tour
                 -Letters
                 -Sentimental buildups
                       -Fighting instincts
                            -President
                            -Johnson
                       -Media coverage
                            -Spiro T. Agnew
                            -Ziegler

Stephen B. Bull entered at an unknown time after 11:06 am.

     Request for Charles W. Colson

Bull left at an unknown time before 11:39 am.

     Public relations
          -Media coverage of Senate vote
                 -Ziegler’s view
                 -Rationale
          -Media coverage

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[Previous PRMPA Privacy (D) reviewed under deed of gift 01/17/2020. Segment cleared for
release.]
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[Duration: 2s]                                                Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)

       Public relations
               -Media coverage of Senate vote
                      -Ronald L. Ziegler’s view
                             -President’s observation
                                    -Drinking

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     Public relations
          -Media coverage of Senate vote
                 -President's drug message
                       -Raymond K. Price, Jr.
                 -President and children
          -Administration tactics
                 -Formation of "line"
                 -President's involvement

Butterfield entered at an unknown time after 11:05 am.

[Delivery of casualty figures]

Butterfield left at an unknown time before 11:39 am.

     Vietnam casualties
          -Trends
               -Kissinger
               -Cambodian action
               -Indication of success
                     -Agnew's comments

     Schedule
          -Press briefing during Midwest trip

               -Cincinnati
                     -Problems
                     -Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Kentucky
                     -St. Louis, Kansas City, and Milwaukee
               -Wisconsin trip
                     -Necessity
                     -Benefits
               -Kansas City                                   Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                     -Compared with St. Louis
                     -Facilities
                           -Hotels
                           -Compared with Rochester
          -Need to visit Missouri
          -Milwaukee, Wisconsin
          -Montana

Colson entered at 11:39 am.

     Pentagon Papers
          -Effect on John F. Kennedy administration
               -Effect on Ted Kennedy
               -Effect on Democrats
               -Boston reaction
                      -Boston Globe article
                            -Assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem
                                 - J. Kennedy
                                 -Henry Cabot Lodge
               -Kennedy and "covert war"
          -Chicago Daily News
          -Chicago Sun Times story
          -Colson's effort
               -Attack on Johnson
               -Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
                      -Rationale
                           -Election posture
                           -Franklin C. (“Lyn”) Nofziger
               -Attack on John Kennedy
                      -McNamara
                      -Clark M. Clifford
                      -McGeorge Bundy
                      -Johnson's choice of advisers
               -Focus on need for secrecy

                    -Mention of specific papers
                          -New York Times, Washington Post
                    -Focus on classification
               -Focus on Chicago peace group
                    -Distribution of classified stolen documents
                    -Defiance of court order
                    -Relation to May Day demonstrations
                                                               Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 01/14/2020.
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     Pentagon Papers
          -Administration response
                -Benefits of low profile reaction
                     -John A. Scali
          -Polls
                -Results
                     -Approval of President
                     -Gallup poll compared with administration poll
                     -Focus on moral issue of publishing stolen documents
                     -Focus on classified documents
                           -Miller
                     -Lack of awareness
                           -Regional breakdown
                     -Public perception
                     -Publication of papers
                     -Administration’s court action
                     -Rationale
                           -Age of classified material
          -Declassification procedures
                -World War II
                     -Pearl Harbor

      -Korean War period
      -Cuban missile crisis
            -Turkish bases
      -Bay of Pigs invasion
      -Scope
      -Colson and Ehrlichman conversation
            -Effect on country
      -Selectivity                                 Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
      -[Thomas] Woodrow Wilson
-President's prosecution of Times
      -Legal necessities
-Focus on previous administrations
      -Effect on Hubert H. Humphrey
      -Effect on Edmund G. Muskie
      -Effect on Ted Kennedy
      -Effect on Jackson
      -Muskie’s comments
      -Link between Ted and John Kennedy
      -Humphrey handling of attack on Johnson administration
            -Compared to Chappaquiddick
      -Victor Lasky's article
      -Patrick J. Buchanan's article
            -President's conduct of the War
            -Mailing to House and Senate
            -Mailing to dinner guests
-President's involvement
      -Buchanan
      -Scali
      -William P. Rogers story to Haldeman
      -Rationale for low profile
            -Alger Hiss case
      -Mood in country
      -Avoidance of escalation
      -Attack on newspapers
            -Timing
-Administration response
-Democratic infighting
      -Lawrence F. O'Brien's role
      -Gale W. McGee and J. William Fulbright
      -McGovern's situation
            -Attack on main actors
      -James P. Roche’s defense of Johnson

          -William S. White's reaction
          -Stewart J.O. Alsop's article
     -Impact on country

Mansfield Amendment
    -Effect on US foreign policy
          -Impact on negotiations
                -Vietnam                                 Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                      -Prisoners of War [POW]
                      -Ceasefire
                -Administration fortitude
                -F. Edward Hebert
                -Rationale
                -Clark MacGregor
          -President's foreign policy efforts
                -Vietnam
                      -Drop in casualties
                            -Laos
                            -Cambodia
          -Public perception

Public relations
     -Support for the President
            -Compared to Johnson
     -President's standing in polls
            -Trends
            -Johnson
            -Reaction to President in person
                  -Effect of wedding
                        -Barbara Walters’ comments
                              -Comparison with coronation
                        -Tricia Nixon Cox pictures
                        -Audience ratings
                              -Network draws
                                   -Columbia Broadcasting System [CBS]
                                   -National Broadcasting Company [NBC]
                  -War in Vietnam
                        -Impact
     -Economy
            -President's contact with retailers
                  -Harry B. Cunningham, Chairman, S.S. Kresge Co.
                  -Gordon M. Metcalf, Chairman, Sears Roebuck and Co.

                     -Edward W. Carter
               -Inflation
               -Unemployment
          -Teamsters Union
               -President’s call to Frank S. Fitzsimmons
               -George T. Bell
               -Voting power
               -George Meany's tactics                       Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
               -Political power
               -Prior support for President
                     -Helen Gahagan Douglas
               -Political courtship
               -President's contact with Fitzsimmons
               -Upcoming report
               -Fitzsimmons’s demeanor
          -American Medical Association [AMA]
               -Support for President
                     -Drug request
                     -Political power

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 01/14/2020.
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      Public relations
              -American Medical Association [AMA]
                     -Support for President
                           -Dr. [first name unknown] Thompson
                                    -Influence

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     Public relations
          -American Medical Association [AMA]
                 -Support for President
                      -Politics compared with profession

               -Socialized medicine

Mansfield Amendment
    -Attack on supporters
          -Republicans
                -Charles H. Percy
                -Past record
                -Marlow W. Cook                         Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                -Ted F. Stevens
    -Effect on negotiations
          -Ziegler's comment
          -Conversation with Mansfield
          -Nguyen Van Thieu
    -Views of Republicans
          -President's strength
                -Polls
                -Upcoming "breaks" for administration

Economy
    -Positive talk on economy
          -Public perception
          -Arthur F. Burns
          -Construction industry statistics
          -Industrial production
          -Retail sales
          -Burns
          -McCracken
          -Connally
          -Shultz
          -Present condition
                -Compared to Great Depression
          -Pressure of money supply
          -Level of employment
          -Vietnam veterans
                -Effect on figures
          -Airframe workers
                -Areas affected
                      -Southern California
                      -Pacific northwest
                      -Wichita, Kansas
    -Future growth areas
          -Seattle, Washington

               -Southern California
               -Florida
               -Rationale
                     -Retirement
               -Arizona and Nevada
                     -Skill level
               -Southern California
                     -Crowding                               Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                     -Compared to New York
                           -President’s recollections
                           -Nassau
                           -Westchester
                           -New Jersey suburbs
                     -Empty land
                           -Types
                     -Population
          -Confidence in economy
          -Dwight D. Eisenhower
               -Related to world affairs

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 01/14/2020.
Segment cleared for release.]
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[Duration: 5m 8s]

      Politics
              -Democratic Party problems
                    -Lawrence F. O'Brien, Jr.'s job
                           -Intra-party conflict
                                   -Attacks on previous Democratic administrations
                    -Democratic National Convention problems
                           -Rule changes
                                   -Efforts of George S. McGovern’s staffers
                           -Wisconsin convention
                                   -Censure of Lyndon B. Johnson
                                   -Reaction to Lyndon B. Johnson/John F. Kennedy record
                    -Comparison to 1960 Republican National Convention
                           -Attacks on Dwight D. Eisenhower Administration

                   -Comparison to 1964 Republican National Convention
                          -Attacks on Dwight D. Eisenhower Administration
            -Impact on Hubert H. Humphrey's prospects
                   -Attacks by Administration
                          -Editorials
                                  -Content
            -Edmund S. Muskie's prospects
                   -Previous support for Lyndon B. Johnson’sConv.
                                                              VietnamNo.policy
                                                                          528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                   -Vote for Gulf of Tonkin resolution
                   -Previous convention speech
                          -President’s idea to utilize
            -Gale W. McGee
                   -Speculation of potential Democratic Party split
                          -Structure of the Democratic Convention
                          -Henry M. (“Scoop”) Jackson
                          -Southern Democrats
                          -George C. Wallace's prospects
                                  -Civil rights
            -Democratic Party money
                   -New York contributions
                          -Jewish donors
                                  -Edmund S. Muskie's prospects
                                  -George S. McGovern's prospects
                                  -Eugene J. McCarthy's tactics
                          -Creation of fourth political party
                                  -Effect on President
                                  -Effect on conservative Democrats
            -Democratic problems versus Republican problems
                   -1964 presidential race
                   -Left-wing of the Democratic Party
                          -Popular strength on far left compared to far right

**********************************************************************

    Domestic affairs
        -Charles B. Kuralt
              -Nicholas P. Thimmesch column
              -Popular opinion
        -Melville Stephens
        -Perception of the people
              -Atlantic City trip

                -Problems in US
                      -Media contributions
                -State of the Nation
                      -Vietnam
                      -Urban unrest
                      -Police support
                            -Black policeman
                -President’s supporters                      Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
          -President's schedule
                -Play to particular groups
                      -Focus on supporters
                            -Youth

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[Previous PRMPA Personal Returnable (G) withdrawal reviewed under deed of gift 01/14/2020.
Segment cleared for release.]
[Personal Returnable]
[528-001-w005]
[Duration: 2m 9s]

      Domestic affairs
            -Campaign tactics
                    -President’s conversation with H. R. (“Bob”) Haldeman
                           -Youth
                                   -Frequent support for President
                                   -Potential increase of voters
                           -Motivation of voters to turnout
                    -Fourth political party
                    -Timing of elections
                    -Demeanor of President’s re-election campaign
                           -President’s opinion
                    -Demeanor of unseen campaign

**********************************************************************

     Mansfield Amendment
         -Rationale for votes
               -Effect on negotiations

     Pentagon Papers
          -Furor
          -Focus on John Kennedy and Johnson period
          -Focus on theft of papers
               -Rationale
               -Publication
               -Daniel Ellsberg
                      -Julius and Ethel Rosenberg           Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                      -Poll findings
                      -Method of removal of papers
          -Involvement of peace group
               -Infiltration
               -Richard H. Ichord
          -Congressional action
               -House Committee on Un-American activities
               -John L. McClellan
               -Phillip M. Crane
               -Jack F. Kemp
                      -Treason charge

Colson left at 12:41 pm.

     Citizens Committee
           -Use of money for supporting revenue sharing
                -Request of citizens committee for money
                -Connection to campaign

     Schedule
          -Postal celebration ceremony
               -Schools of thought
               -Winton M. (“Red”) Blount dinner
               -Robert H. Finch
               -Focus on administration accomplishments
               -Ray Grace
          -Focus on a few issues
               -Drugs
               -Ehrlichman
          -Postal celebration
               -Blount plans

     Ambassadorships
         -Charles G. (“Bebe”) Rebozo

                 -Ambassador to Brussels
                 -Former Ambassador to Ireland [Winston] Guest
                       -Raymond R. Guest
                             -Campaign contributions
                                  -John Eisenhower
                                  -Wife
                                  -Herbert W. Kalmbach
           -Political office                                   Conv. No. 528-16/529-1 (cont.)
                 -Related to campaign contributions
                       -Amount
                       -Fred J. Russell
                       -Length of Ambassadorships
                       -Charles H. Bluhdorn contribution
                             -Sugar quotas

Haldeman left at 12:45 pm.

This transcript was generated automatically by AI and has not been reviewed for accuracy. Do not cite this transcript as authoritative. Consult the Finding Aid above for verified information.

Come in.
Come in.
Yeah, how are you?
It's a pleasure to see you.
It's a pleasure to see you.
All right.
Oh, I've got no chance to be there.
I've got to wait and cry.
I've got to wait and cry.
I've got to wait and cry.
I've got to wait and cry.
I've got to wait and cry.
I've got to wait and cry.
I've got to wait and cry.
Yeah, we didn't get to die, but you guys did good.
Yeah, that's right.
I appreciate it.
It's a great group.
I'm a big fan.
I've been doing this for a long time.
I've been doing this for a long time.
I've been doing this for a long time.
Good competition.
And we can tell which guy is the football player.
Well...
Yes, I did.
I did.
I came out there.
That was an adult, you know.
If you're awake, you can't come.
You know, if I'm here, I'm fine.
I can't do it for you.
I've got to go.
I've got to go.
I've got to go.
I've got to go.
I've got to go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you, Doctor.
I can only respond to that today.
The only way I can remember is to be honored.
You know, I can hardly wait for the season to start.
I don't think about Sunday afternoon.
Well, I... Go ahead, sir.
Well, I... You're a... You're a... You're a... You're a... You're a...
I don't know.
That's the thing that's very interesting.
I found that you make your key, you know, the problem is it's the unsigned.
The defensive line.
The defensive line.
Get it in play.
How many tackles did he make?
Did you ever hear about offensive line?
Offensive line.
Offensive line.
They had knocked them down and so forth, they were flocking with that caster.
They were making it impossible for the run to go, but you never hear all that, this offensive line being knocked.
You can put in so many blocks just because of this.
Like only, only the coaches know that.
So they had to pull and they had to turn for us, and we got down in the mines, and then, just as we said, nobody could make it.
I must say, the defensive backs now are getting just as much as the plays as the offensive backs.
In other words, the hard backs and all that sort of thing.
Well, that's the last question.
Now listen, we want to give you something.
When you say the presidential couplets, it's the seal.
Like that.
In a couplet.
So if you do, I'm preaching you to have one of those.
You can't get a couplet to use the seal.
Thank you very much.
And, oh, these are all athletes, so I'm going to give you one.
This is the, uh, this is the president.
It's really nice.
It's made up.
It has a seal.
I know people like this about me.
Just because a girlfriend is dead, you know.
I don't know if you'll come down here, but there's nothing.
You have the best equipment and all the hosts you've got to have left to swing.
That's all we've got.
Thank you, sir.
Did you get one?
No, you didn't.
Sure, sure, let's play golf.
Say, you know, one great rooter that you've got doing a wonderful job.
I think he misses that action out there, but he's a good call.
Yeah.
Well, I wish you the best, and I wish you the best.
You know, there's an interesting thing that went quite well through all these groups.
I'm going to try to speak to
It's a great spectator sport for all of us that are going to follow it.
If you follow it again, I hope that this is for you, and for you, and should be for you, and for a lot of others, and so forth and so on.
But it needs a lot of love from the kids, and the youngster, and the youngster, and a lot of them that are making big games and so forth.
I see you both out there.
I thought it was, and I'm so glad to see so many of you after you.
We'll take things like on the soldiers, drugs, and all the other stuff.
And Ken sees it, and he's, oh, he's admired, you know.
Oh, he's a great athlete or something like that.
And he says, look, bud,
It's like the preacher said, it's like a politician, somebody he admires, he really means a lot.
And I know a lot of you, a lot of you next to you, you appear in all that band, and certainly you must have seen it.
Every group of young people, you get that across.
And the other thing is, there's kind of this spirit, too many people these days, you know, they start to talk to colleges, and, you know, that's making everything more winning, you know.
Well, it makes a very great deal of sense.
It doesn't mean that you've got to win all the time.
You don't win at all.
But it's what really makes this nation.
It's the drive.
People have got to keep trying regardless.
You start from the very bottom.
You've got to keep going.
You know, the competitive spirit is what made America.
And that's what you guys represent out there in that piece.
They see out there.
I mean, I was actually just...
You know, one of the pro golf ball players, I said, you know, when pro baseball first became popular 30 years ago, they wondered, well, will they have the spirit?
You know, because like the college kids, well, now, as a matter of fact, nobody's going to go out there and take what you call a stick just for the dog.
I mean, there's only dogs, but I mean, you've got the chances.
Oh, I tell you, I've seen, I've been in dressing rooms after proteins lost.
They feel just as bad as how they feel.
And that's what you need in this country.
I mean, we just need that kind of spirit.
That's why our sports, not only because of the physical effect, because of the stimulating, it's good entertainment.
Also, because it's good for a country to see people try to beat worse somebody.
Win or lose, the main thing is to beat worse somebody.
It's these people that stay on the sidelines and aren't for anything.
They're the ones, you know, that aren't going to come out and get it.
Well, you know, we have a lot of people.
I want to ask you before you let us know what's going to happen.
We all believe there's a sign of those wars that should have been done.
That's right.
That's right.
Listen, we want to prove it to all candidates.
Well, I'm very grateful, and I wish you the best.
And I'll be watching you on television.
I've had to catch one game in Miami sometime.
No, in Baltimore, Mr. President.
Are they going to play in Miami this year?
I don't know if you're going to get a season.
Are you going to get a season?
Well, I've got a lot of time.
I'm going to go to Peter's Vineyard.
Oh, Pete?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's not in his locker room.
It's in the locker room.
Yeah, yeah.
He's a great baller.
He's a large skier.
Yes, a great large skier.
He's pretty wide.
Tom Harden, I remember him as a large skier.
He's a locker.
He is a locker.
That's great down here.
I like it.
I'll be your neighbor, Mr. President.
We'll go over to you and skate in three months.
All right.
Go over there.